Digital Economy Bill
Public Bill Committee, 13 October 2016.
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
I would like to declare that I am a trustee and voluntary director of Advice Direct Scotland, which also operates as Citizens Advice Direct.
Examination of Witnesses
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
I will start with part 5 and ask about debt collection. My questions are particularly aimed at StepChange and Citizens Advice. What concerns do you have about the principles of public authority debt collectors when dealing with their crediteesQ 214?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
No, just the public sector.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Can you give us an example of those kinds of problems?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Sorry, but what precisely could the Bill do to address that?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Dr Fishenden, if we can move on to you in relation to part 5, specifically the measures on data sharing. Do the proposals reassure you that the Government have given sufficient consideration to privacy, data security and data ethics?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q In your experience, is it unusual for the Government not to have published at least draft codes of practice alongside legislation of this nature?
Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))
I have a question for MrQ Chisholm. I put on record my thanks to your organisation for the wonderful work that it does in my constituency—and in everyone else’s, I am sure—in helping some of the more vulnerable people in society. It is a fantastic organisation. We hear a lot about the big picture of how technology can help people and make their lives better, but you guys are at the coalface, helping vulnerable people. Will you explain how some of the measures in the Bill on data sharing are going to make your life easier and deliver tangible benefits to vulnerable people?
Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))
Q Beyond debt collection, are there other areas in which data sharing can be used to ensure that the right services or the right support is getting to people who need it?
Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))
Yes, when the Government are delivering public services. You may have something to say about energy, or perhaps other areas.
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
My colleague has already elicited some comments from you, Mr Chisholm, about how you can see the most vulnerable benefiting from the Bill. Can you give some other examples of situations you have come across in which you could see the Bill helping individualsQ ?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Debt first. We can perhaps move on to switching and other things.
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q What about other aspects of the Bill? In evidence sessions earlier in the week we focused a lot on switching, the universal service obligation and the ability to cancel contracts if you are not getting a good service. My experience is that for the people who come to my surgeries, who are often the same people who go to the CAB, those elements often come into play. Have you seen any other similar elements of the Bill that would be helpful or beneficial?
Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)
Q I would like to ask Citizens Advice two questions. The first is about clauses 30 to 35, which relate to the warm home discount. There are already data-matching powers for those in receipt of a guaranteed element of pension credit, but obviously we are expanding that out to try to find anyone who is eligible. What difference will that make to your customers and what outcomes will it have? Can I possibly press you on some examples? You have been talking a lot about process, but it is important to get on the record what the outcomes of this expansion of the data-sharing power will be.
Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)
Q That leads nicely on to my second question, which is about the debt-collection power and sharing data. You stated in evidence that it
“will create improved opportunities for better treatment of people in vulnerable situations”.
Can we get some examples of how you think that will work?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
I want to move us on to talk about nuisance calls and the direct marketing code in clause 77. First, do you think the proposals go far enough? Do you think that the nuisance calls section should be strengthened? Is there a justification for having an aggravated offence for targeting elderly and/or vulnerable people? Any thoughts on any of those from any of the three of youQ ?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Dr Fishenden, have you got anything to add to that?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Thank you. Anything else from Mr Chisholm?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
MindfulQ of the concern that Dr Fishenden has raised about data protection and privacy, I just really wanted to press Mr Chisholm a little bit. Thank you for your submissions and what you described. You made it very clear that we are asking some people who are in the most vulnerable circumstances to deal with a multitude of problems. It is difficult enough managing one’s own financial ins and outs as somebody who does not face particular restrictions in life. Would you agree that if we can appropriately deal with the privacy issue, which I believe we can, clauses 30 to 35 and 40 to 47 are actually helping those who are in most need of our collective help?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Sorry, it is around information provision to electrical suppliers, where you very eloquently described that people can automatically get the warm home discount but they may have to go through several hoops, and also the issue around netting-off of Government debt collection, if you like.
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
But facilitating this sharing can only be helpful for those who are most in need of help.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
We are about to start line-by-line consideration of the Bill. If you were on the Committee and had a chance to put down an amendment to the Bill, what would it beQ ?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Email that to us later. What is yours, Dr Fishenden?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
It is outrageous to outsource your job!
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q Building on that question, if you are sending Mr Brennan emails, copy me in.
We have seen in this session a number of Members trying to drag out of you the positive benefits of data sharing. I hope we have all bought into the positive benefits, but if that is done in the wrong way, there may be a mess with unintended consequences which could be disastrous for individuals. Dr Fishenden, your exasperation with what is in the Bill is shared by other witnesses. We are faced with whether we can strengthen it in such a way that it is workable, or whether we should just oppose it, despite all the benefits. What is your view on whether it is saveable—clearly there is a desire for this—and can you help us to put in enough guarantees so that there will not be unintended consequences?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q Hello. In relation to the new appeals process, which will bring Ofcom in line with other industry regulators, is Ofcom fully prepared?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q On switching, the Bill improves powers to collect information. How do you envisage publishing information on telecoms, such as service quality, broadband speed and so on?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q On nuisance calls, which is an issue that has been running for a long, long time, over many years there have been increases in fines and various other measures. How much of a real difference do you think the Bill will make? Could it go further in trying to tackle the issue?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q I want to turn to the BBC. How do you think we can ensure that the BBC’s distinctiveness and public service commitments are upheld in this new role?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q Could you say a bit more about what safeguards are in place for that public service duty and role?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q We have had some debate, which you may or may not have followed, on the electronic communication code, and about whether the changes in the Bill, which are designed to reduce the cost of rolling out mobile infrastructure, should go further and mirror the rules around the water industry. I would be interested in your reflections on what the consequences would be, should we make that change.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Thank you; so you do not want to go further on the details, but you are working on implementation.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q Okay. The other area where we have had questions is on Ofcom appeals. It would be very interesting to hear your take on why it is necessary to make the changes to the appeals that are set out.
Mark Menzies (Conservative, Fylde)
All our constituents are victims of nuisance calls. Do you think the law as it currently stands is sufficient to protect them? What measures in the Bill do you think will offer enhanced protection, and when we are dealing with companies that are out to drive a coach and horses through the law, what measures do you think we can put in place to provide protection for customers? If I could lead you down a path, at the moment, if you want to lodge a complaint against a company you have to have the phone number and the website address. When I have asked nuisance call companies, “Can I have your phone number; can I have your website address?” guess what? They have neither of those things.Q
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q Perhaps I can bring you on to the universal service obligation. While we are frustrated by the lack of ambition in terms of the speed offers, if designed correctly it need not hold back regions and countries that want to go further. As you design the scheme, could you perhaps reassure me that it will not hinder but help a Government, such as the Scottish Government, who want to aim for 30 megabits and not 10 megabits?
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q I think there are mechanisms, for example voucher schemes—of which BDUK already has some experience—that could provide foundational funding that allows 30 megabits to be the target, rather than settling for 10 megabits. I hope that is something that will be made possible. You talk about a review period for speed. How often do you think the speed should be reviewed?
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
The danger is that we leave it open-ended, we all get busy and it does not happen. Mr Streeter, may I ask one more question?
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q The very good document from the Minister and DCMS gives us a bit more information on the USO and talks about upload, download, latency and capacity. One of the other factors is cost. I get frequent complaints from constituents, as I am sure my colleagues do, that they do not receive a service that, as Ronseal would say, “Does what it says on the tin.” To what extent are you going to go to a granular level and look at the service, and also include cost as a key metric, so people are getting what they pay for or paying for what they get?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q I have a question for each of the witnesses. Starting with Mr Close, under the Bill, Ofcom will be given quite significant new oversight responsibilities over the BBC. Can you confirm what skills and attributes Ofcom currently has in terms of broadcasting, and are you confident, given this substantial increase in responsibilities, that you will have the skills and resources to do this job in the future?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q Ms Fussell, you will be given powers in the Bill to acquire speed test information at premises level. Will you be using those powers? How will you be sharing that information? How may the customer benefit?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q Yes. May I ask a couple of questions on automatic compensation? How do you envisage that working? Do you have experience of doing this sort of thing? I would like to hear your general comments, and I will then ask a specific question.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q On the basis that compensation delayed is compensation denied, would you support the compensation effectively being paid on the next bill that the customer receives rather than their having to wait for a bank transfer at the end of the financial year or something?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q What is the alternative to financial?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q Taking it off the next bill would be a good idea if it were achievable. Finally, given that we are now at the stage of line-by-line consideration of the Bill, is there anything that you would suggest as an amendment to improve it?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
So there is nothing you would suggest.
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
It is not really a question. May I put on the record that the Government today announced a delay repay scheme to compensate automatically for 15-minute delays to railway journeys, so it is wonderful to see Ofcom supporting the moves that regulators of other industries are introducing?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q Congratulations on your appointment. Would you support moves to introduce director-led accountability so that directors are held to account on nuisance calls rather than just the companies?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
So an amendment in the Bill to achieve that would be helpful.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q For the record, the witness nodded in reply to that question.
On age verification, attention has been drawn to the consequences of failing to think through plans, including the possibility that information on passports and driving licences could be misused when collected as part of an age verification system. Could you comment on that and are you aware of any evidence that might mitigate those risks in that part of the Bill?
Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))
Q We hear a lot about how technology can benefit people and that the Government need to harness technology to do just that. Indeed, some data sharing is already going on in the delivery of Government services. Can you describe how the measures in the Bill will provide greater legal certainty and clarity in that area because we want to make sure we are doing things in the right way? Your thoughts in that regard would be helpful.
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q I wanted to just go back to age verification, if you do not mind, Mr Wood. You made a good deal in your evidence and in your response to my colleague’s earlier question about the concerns that you have—and I get those. Can you push this a bit further and say what you would think was an adequate system of evidence providing for age verification? What would work?
Mark Menzies (Conservative, Fylde)
Q All of us have constituents who are victims of nuisance calls. Many of these are vulnerable people, and elderly. What measures do you think we could add to the Bill to strengthen protection for such people?
Mark Menzies (Conservative, Fylde)
Q At the moment, for a customer to lodge an official complaint, they have to be able to identify the caller through a phone number or a website address. I know, because I have tried. They refuse to give that data. What enforcement steps can we introduce so these rogues and scam artists will reveal such information?
Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)
Q I have three questions. First, the commissioner’s submission mentions the benefits of justified, proportionate data sharing and how it could improve the delivery of public services for the public and improve policy decision making within Government. Will you expand on that point with reference to the Bill? Which data-sharing powers would be particularly useful when it comes to future policy making and helping vulnerable customers?
Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)
Q This has been touched on already; we have heard a lot about technology solutions—having a wide variety of open data—being the answer to the Government’s problems. Do you agree that, when it comes to the mechanism by which the data sharing takes place, it is essential to have legislation in place? That is a really important point, on which I would like to hear the commissioner’s personal views.
Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)
Yes.
Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)
Q I have a final question. We have touched, in previous evidence hearings, on the nature of consent and individual knowledge about data sharing. What are the challenges with using consent-based data-sharing models? Do you accept that there is a necessity for data sharing to be used for the benefit of particular vulnerable groups in society without the need for consent?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Apologies for my brief absence from the Committee. Ms Denham, do you believe that the proposals in part 5 comply with the EU’s general data protection regulation?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q We have heard your concerns about the draft codes of practice, which I also find very concerning. Of course, we do not know because we have not seen any draft codes of practice. Would you advise Members to vote on Government powers of that nature without seeing such draft codes of practice? Who else should be consulted on such codes before they are made law?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q To follow up on that, do you believe that we ought to see the draft codes of practice prior to consideration of these parts of the Bill in Committee?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q In your first speech as Information Commissioner you made much of the need for businesses to establish trust in relation to data sharing, with which I obviously completely agree. Do you think this Bill could have done more to put safeguards around data sharing in the commercial space?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q The UK is one of the most advanced digital economies in the world, yet we heard from witnesses on Tuesday that, in terms of Government data sharing, we are well behind the curve, well behind other countries—that is partly because they are probably more focused on the opportunities. Does this Bill, in your experience, bring us more in line with the best practice you are seeing in other countries?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q If the Bill were not amended in the ways you have suggested, where would that leave us in terms of privacy protection and data protection in the international league table?