Digital Economy Bill
Public Bill Committee, 11 October 2016.
Examination of Witnesses
Nigel Adams (Conservative, Selby and Ainsty)
Mr Stringer, may I put on the record and bring the Committee’s attention to my declaration of interest? I am a director of two telecommunications companies and a shareholder in both; my wife is a shareholder in those companies as well.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Thank you for coming to give evidence today. May I start with you, Sean? First, do you think that 2020 and 10 megabits per second are sufficiently ambitious targets for the universal service obligationQ ?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Baroness Harding, should the USO not have been an open tender process? If it had been, would it not have been right for it to have gone to more than one contractor, given the differences between the problems in inner city areas and those in rural areas?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
As you know, I represent a very rural constituency. I support what has happened; it is clearly far better than it was five years ago. However, what happens if no USO provider is Q willing to come forward to deal with the last 500 houses in the Devizes constituency? What should happen then?
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Given that broadband speeds have doubled in the past three years, and that the pace of demand is accelerating, I find it staggering that we should say to rural constituents, “You are second-class digital citizens and must accept 10 megabits.” How do we bring forward a scheme that ensures that, in areas where they want to go further to ensure that they keep up or even get ahead, the universal service obligation does not peg them at a low speed? How could we design a flexible, regional USO model? Has that been considered by anyoneQ on the panel?
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q Mr Williams, do you think that a tactical, on-demand USO only provided by BT can really provide the strategic outcome—a direction toward “gigabit Britain”—that I think we all agree is a matter of when and not if? If we continue to do this in a piecemeal fashion surely all we are going to do is cement the digital divide, rather than close it.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q I welcome the commitment from BT to reach 100% of premises by 2020, but I ask for a point of clarification on language. Mr Williams, you referred in the percentages to “fibre” and, separately, to “fibre to the premises”. Can you confirm that by “fibre” you mean a combination of fibre and copper and that by “fibre to the premises” you mean pure fibre? The use of the term “fibre” reflects statistics that I understand mean fibre to the cabinet, so I find confusing the offer to households being “fibre plus copper”. I would be grateful if you clarified that.
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q I am conscious of what Baroness Harding said about perhaps not setting a quantum, but do you think there should be a separate quantum for SMEs? One of the challenges we have is that there is not enough. We do not have separate legislation or, indeed, powers for cabling to new business parks. If I may ask a supplementary question, in my experience the issue with the USO is often with the broadband speeds in the household; it is not just a question of getting the cable to the front door or the bricks. What could the process be for dealing with those claims and helping householders realise that that might be a problem?
One final question: we would like the USO to be an average speed, rather than being achieved 15% of the time, or whatever the current average regulations are. What are your views on that? Are you prepared to commit to our offering an average USO of 10 megabits per second?
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
WhatQ flexibility would you like to see within the legislation for either the Government or perhaps Ofcom to be able to deem the level of the USO in the manner that Baroness Harding described as technology increases?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Sean, do you recognise the figure that improving wayleave rights under the ECC will reduce costs for providers by 40%? Would you like to tell us whether any surplus from that will be used to invest in local communities or will it be going to your profit marginsQ ?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q Is it in the right ball park? Is that what you are saying?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q So all that will be reinvested into the—
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q Can I ask you, how will we have competition in next generation access? Will certain areas of the country be limited to 10 megabits in the future?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q Will certain areas be limited, do you think, in reaching the 10 megabits?
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
rose—
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
Not exactly.
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Far fewer people switch broadband and phone providers than gas or electricity, for example. Do you support the Government’s published principles of switching, which will make it easier for consumers to switchQ ?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q Baroness Harding, you mentioned that this is a consumer-friendly Bill in various degrees. Mr Dyson and Mr Williams, are there any other elements of the Bill that you see as consumer friendly that would benefit my constituents, for example?
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
Q I am hearing mixed messages about this industry and its ability to achieve a USO. On one hand, we hear that market forces will achieve it and, on the other hand, we hear that Ofcom does not have enough power and that there is a fear of litigation. Should this Bill be giving greater powers to Ofcom? For example, in areas such as Devizes, which Claire Perry talked about, where there are broadband not spots, should Ofcom deem a provider to provide for that area?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q I will start with the question that I asked the last panel. Do you think that 10 megabits per second by 2020 is ambitious enough?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Are you saying fibre to 100% of premises?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q How would that be achievable?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Why should we be limiting ourselves to something that is barely sufficient now? What changes could we see in the Bill that would give us anything like the connectivity that Mr Wheeldon just mentioned?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q I represent a fairly rural constituency and I was interested to know what would happen if no USO provider came forward to do the right thing. What should happen in that case? How will the Government be able to mandate that provision?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q Exactly, but as I know from personal experience, having a copper line does not guarantee anything like the advertised speeds today. My previous question related to small businesses. Some of the most frustrated people in my constituency are small businesses in business parks, who could benefit hugely from an upgrade. Do you think the Government should be setting a separate USO for a small business, versus a household?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q That rather depends on the sort of small business. While that might be true for a farmer, for example, what I want in my constituency is the ability to have the sort of businesses that would locate to silicon roundabout come to a beautiful part of the country where property is much cheaper. I would be cautious about writing off rural areas as only ever being able to access Government websites and check their emails one at a time. I think we should be doing something much more ambitious with obligations—particularly for small business parks, so you have clusters of fibre around those.
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
I am a little shocked to hear Mr Butler say that 10 megabits is okay for the average small business. In my constituency, high-tech industries and digital creative industries need something much more reliable, much more secure and a lot greater than 10 megabits. They are not just uploading the odd film; they are making the films. Can I push you on that? They need secure, reliable, consistent bandwidth. What on earth has blocked the roll-out of that so far in city centres as well as rural areas? What else could the Bill do to push business, provide the infrastructure or give Ofcom the teeth—whatever is needed—to help the high-tech and creative industries growQ ?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q I am not just talking about outliers, Mr Butler. You talked about providing to London and some areas outside London. London is overheating, with great respect to my London colleagues. A lot of these industries are looking to other cities and if they cannot get what they need they are going to stay put in London—and that is not good for the economy, both rural and urban. What else can be done by business or what else do you need in the Bill for this to be put right?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q No—I was going to ask for more details on which bits of the Bill could help.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q I remember one of your predecessors in a predecessor company, Mr Butler, explaining to me why they were digging my street up in the 1990s. They basically said, “We are installing a straw to suck money out of people’s houses”, which I think is the best explanation I ever received of what was involved. On the electronic communications code, how can you assure us that its reform will actually benefit consumers principally and not just allow you to keep more of the money that you suck out of people’s houses?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
I think the explanations coming from the witnesses are excellent. I did not have any other questions.
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q Are the switching proposals in the Bill, which make it easier for customers to switch and give them more power and information, a step in the right direction?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q Could you remind me what proportion of the market Sky has?
Drew Hendry (Scottish National Party, Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey)
I want to go back to the average speed, which we were talking about earlier. When you provide businesses with average services, and you give them average speed—give them the minimum they need to be average—you are locking them into being average businesses; you are not giving them the opportunity to be more ambitious. How do you square that with a programme of ambition for the 21st century, taking people forward? What do you do to encourage devolved Administrations such as the Scottish Government, and councils, where they want to go further and have faster speeds?Q
Drew Hendry (Scottish National Party, Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey)
Q Given that Openreach is pinning its position on getting 95% coverage by 4G by 2020, that surely leaves 5% in areas where they will be forced to use satellite. That is a group of consumers that cannot switch and cannot go across. What do you do for those people who find themselves in those geographically disadvantaged areas, where they are not going to be reached by that plan? How can you get that sense of ambition going for those people?
Nigel Adams (Conservative, Selby and Ainsty)
Q Returning to broadcast, I have a question for Daniel which may not come as a surprise, since I alluded to it on Second Reading. If you take out line rental and broadband charges, what is the cheapest way that someone can access a public service broadcasted channel, and how much does it cost on your platform?
Nigel Adams (Conservative, Selby and Ainsty)
The cost of the line rental and broadband charges, what would the charge be?
Nigel Adams (Conservative, Selby and Ainsty)
Q Yes; it is all bundled in that cost. The reason I allude to it is that, clearly, there is currently no payment made to, effectively, the rights holders. A fair proportion—I would think maybe half—of your content is potentially driven through PSBs. I just wonder why you think that that is a reasonably fair position.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Should this Bill not contain a USO for mobile coverage?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q What should that USO be?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Do you think that there is potential for the USO to actually limit the investment for infrastructure in the future?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q What could the Bill do to achieve the level of investment in infrastructure that is necessary? Is separation of BT from Openreach absolutely vital for this?
Mark Menzies (Conservative, Fylde)
On a slightly different point, I have a question for Which? around data sharing. Clearly, there are mixed views as to whether it is a good or a bad thing. I would like to understand what you think that the benefits would be, particularly to vulnerable groups, of the Government having access to this dataQ ?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q On the point about coverage of broadband and mobile, where would we come in the European champions league of coverage? Will the Bill push us up the league at all, in your opinion?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
What do you think?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q You listed a lot of countries that do better than us when you gave your answer earlier. If the Bill potentially brings some progress, are we running fast enough to keep up with our colleagues on the continent?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q It would be very helpful if you could do that before we meet next week.
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q I want to focus questions directly on Mr Legge. I represent a very rural constituency. We are very anxious about home building. We now have effective neighbourhood plans that rather than mandating giant developments plonked down wherever anybody wants them, require developers—often small developers—to work with communities. The preamble is to ask you whether you think the new law coming in next year to require automatic superfast broadband connection for sites of more than 100 homes is suitable for rural areas, or whether we ought to be going further and effectively making it a utility provision for all home builders.
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
Q Mr Legge, you talk about the need for a fair system of site rents for country landowners in terms of wayleaves and access.
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
There needs to be,
“clarity over the new system of valuation for site rents that is fair and equitable as well as a robust Code of Practice to ensure landowners, infrastructure providers and mobile phone operators are clear”.
Is there not a danger of conflict between looking after the needs of large landowners to get fair wayleave agreements on their properties and potentially preventing the roll-out of broadband and infrastructure services to other rural residents because we are keeping costs higher to benefit the landowners?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q May I clarify that? You said that the new communication code must do those things. Did you mean by that, that it does do those things and that that is right, or that you do not think it fits what you set out? What you set out is entirely concurrent with the Bill.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q I was seeking clarification on whether you are looking for something more than is in the Bill. You were saying that that is what is in the Bill and it is right that that goes through.
Nigel Adams (Conservative, Selby and Ainsty)
Q I suspect that the Bill is not going to be subject to the most detailed discussion around the country. However, as a question to both of you, having had an opportunity to analyse the Bill, if we were all pitching this to our constituents across the country, what do you see as the key benefits for consumers?
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q There has been a lot of discussion in this session about fixing mobile coverage. Do you think that the Bill will achieve that? It comes down to licence obligations. If we want to do it, we need to set the right licence obligations. I accept that you are going to get less money.
On the electronic communications code changes, if we want the measures to be about driving more coverage, should we actually just exclude existing sites—you will have a lot of landowners and we will have local government bodies that will lose a lot of money—and say, “Access will change but, in terms of valuations, let’s exclude existing sites; this is about you going to new sites and doing them more cheaply”?
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q It is not retrospective, so you will not revisit deals. Essentially, when a site comes up for renewal, the valuation of that land will be treated differently, so costs will drop dramatically. My suggestion is that they should be excluded from a valuation perspective, and the old rules apply for valuation.
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
So you will still see some price erosion, but not as much.
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q This is existing infrastructure.
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q They will be allowed to do it, but the rental cost of that land would go down.
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Okay. I do not think you understood my question, but I will leave it there.
Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)
Q Mr Moorey, let us return to your comments about Which? being hamstrung by a lack of data sharing. Could you give a fuller explanation of that? Will you put on record the views of Which? about the public services delivery power, and the potential benefits that it might bring, particularly to the most vulnerable in society?
Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)
Q Any comments on, particularly, the public services power, and how that might affect it?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q I particularly direct this question at Mr Moorey, because I noticed you mentioned unsolicited calls and the problem of people receiving them despite registering with the Telephone Preference Service. I can declare that I am one of those. I am particularly concerned about the example of a constituent in a neighbouring constituency to mine, Olive Cook, who was one of Britain’s longest-serving poppy sellers, having started in 1938. She fell to her death after being plagued by nuisance callers, particularly from charities. My experience has been that there are also private companies making them. Who is it? Who makes nuisance calls? How are they being dealt with? Does the Bill go far enough to ensure that those companies are held responsible—the directors, if necessary? Should they be made more accountable? Can you tell me some more, please?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q Is the Telephone Preference Service system now completely pointless? My constituents say to me that they feel completely unprotected by it. Could the Bill do more to strengthen it?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q So just to be clear, you would welcome amendments to the Bill that would strengthen action, including direct action against directors to avoid the shutting down of shell companies. Is there a case for some kind of aggravated offence where people are on the Telephone Preference Service, or where older people are specifically targeted in such a way?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
I introduced a ten-minute rule Bill on this in 2003, so it is depressing that it is still a problem.
Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)
I am sure you are delighted at the progress.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
It is according to the Government that there has been much progress.
Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))
Mr Moorey, to elaborate on what you said about the provisions in the Bill to reform the appeals process, I think you described the current set-up as having a chilling effect on competition and pro-consumer impacts. It would be great if you would elaborate on what the Bill will do to improve that situationQ .
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q A great frustration in rural areas in particular is being promised mobile coverage or broadband speed that is not delivered. What in the Bill can ensure that those speeds are delivered and that coverage is acceptable?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q What about terminating contracts?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q I wanted to confirm with Mr Legge that he was aware that there are provisions in the Bill to report broadband speed by household. That is something I welcome, and I hope he does too. I suppose that, like me, he is concerned about Mr Huddleston’s point about the provision of service speed to many households in rural areas. I hope that, as a representative of a large chunk of the country, he will welcome that as a positive step for many rural households.
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q Have you considered whether automatic compensation should be not just for download speed but for upload speed? On the USO, have you put forward proposals on other, more granular levels, such as cost and latency as well as upload and download?
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q They are on or off-type services, though, which, to go your point, should do what it says on the tin. There should be a more granular—
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Mike, to what extent do you think the Government have achieved their stated objective of open policy making by default?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Do the proposals on Government data sharing give you assurance that the Government have sufficiently considered safeguards on privacy, personal data and criteria for data sharing and time limitations?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Do you think it is a backward step in public trust in Government data handling?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q But in terms of public trust in Government data handling?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Jeni, my first two questions to you, please.
Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))
Q Jeni, do you mind giving us some specific examples that I can explain to my constituents about where increased use of data sharing can help their lives, and where public services can be improved, especially for those who are more vulnerable and benefit from public services? Where will data sharing help them to get the right policies to them?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
That is a different witness. That is the Open Rights Group.
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
I am sorry. I mixed you up with someone else. I withdraw my question.
Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)
Q Mr Bracken, you were responsible for launching the Government’s data programme when you were head of the Government Digital Service, so I think that some of the measures in the Bill are very much trying to build on your fantastic work when you were setting a vision for transforming the management and use of data within the Government and driving the use of data as a tool when making decisions in Government. Do you have thoughts about your work in GDS and how the Bill is now building on that work? How do you feel that the powers in the Bill will try to unlock some of the opportunities for better use of data?
Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)
You were closely integrated into this approach.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q Do you agree that those areas in addition that you are looking for are essentially administrative rather than legal changes? That is to say, the Government need to move in that direction, I would argue that they are moving in the direction that you set out, but you would not put that in a Bill; you need to make it happen.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q First, I agree with what Jeni said about Citymapper; it has changed my life, it is absolutely fantastic—I actually use the bus now. However, either witness, will the Bill in any way help to avoid another care.data type of scandal?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q Will the Bill make a care.data scandal in the future less likely, more likely or make no difference?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Q Finally, should the Bill be strengthened in some way in order to achieve that, and could that be done by an amendment to it, either of you?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q I appreciate that point, but does either of you agree that there is a real asymmetry of concern between data which an individual may share with a public body and data which individuals share with a corporate body? One thing I am fascinated by, and it relates to so many provisions in the Bill, is that we knowingly or unknowingly give away rights to all kinds of information with every keystroke we make on the internet. We give huge chunks of personal information to corporate bodies which do not have the definition, as per clause 31, of improving the welfare of the individual, but are simply in it for profit. How would either of you help us to address that? Perhaps the Government—rightly, as an elected organisation—are being scrutinised about this, but my constituents are willy-nilly giving away vast chunks of their data, and in some cases giving away private data to very insecure storage facilities, almost without knowing it. It is frustrating for a Government who are trying to do the right thing to make digital government far more effective—as you did, Mike, during your time—to constantly be facing concerns and criticisms that ought properly to be applied to corporate bodies, but never are.
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q Do you believe that there is a lot of work to do in terms of clarity, in order to allay some of the fears about which data are being used here? I have had emails from constituents, and there is a perception that Excel spreadsheets will be floating around universities with personal financial data and personal health records. It is nothing like that, is it? It is aggregated and anonymised. What can we do, what can Government do and what can you do to help clarify the opportunity, move the debate on to those opportunities and allay some of those fears about data protection?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q Forgive me, but is that not the point? I said let us focus on the opportunities but already we have gone on to the negatives and the concerns. It is often commented that by sharing health records we could cure cancer in 10 years. If I asked my constituents if they would share their health information with a university, 99 out of 100 people would say yes. We have to be more ambitious on the communication of the opportunities as well, have we not?
Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)
Q The research power for data sharing, as presented, has been welcomed by many academics and civil society groups as a means of unlocking data for research for public benefit. Looking particularly at that data sharing with non-public bodies, do you recognise the benefits of that power? In terms of your point about communicating the value of the Bill, we have the research power and other things. Looking at vulnerable groups, such as troubled families, we have other powers that are there for public benefit. How do you feel we should express that public benefit?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q Can you set out what some of those might be?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Yes.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q And in terms of the data measures to tackle fraud?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Is the point not that these benefits cannot be achieved unless the risks are tackled head-on, which is exactly what happened with the care.data issue in the last Parliament? That health data could not be shared because the public did not trust the Government or insurers with that risk. I worked in insurance at the time and that came as quite a blow. Is the point not that the Government need to take on the issues around transparency and trust in this Committee? Mike, on your point about data access, do you think Government are currently geared up to allow that, rather than bulk data sharing?
Drew Hendry (Scottish National Party, Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey)
I do not have any direct interests, but for full transparency I draw the Committee’s attention to my share ownership in Teclan Ltd, which is in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Again for full transparency, prior to becoming an MP I worked for Google, in which I have a small share interest at the moment.
Nigel Adams (Conservative, Selby and Ainsty)
As I stated in the earlier session, I am a director and shareholder of two telecommunications businesses, and I believe my wife is also a director and shareholder.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
David, am I right in interpreting the amendments that the Government tabled last night as meaning that you are intended to be the age verification regulatorQ ?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Are you sufficiently resourced to take on that role?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Will it involve a levy on the porn industry?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q What risks do you envisage in people handing over their personal data to the pornographic industry?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Are you suggesting that it will literally just be a question—“Is the user aged 18?”—and their ticking a box to say yes or no? How else could you disaggregate identity from age verification?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q But how can that be disaggregated from identity? That person’s personal data is associated with that phone and is still going to be part of the contract.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q And is that the only form of age verification that you have so far looked into?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
May I say what great comfort it is to know that the BBFC will be involved in the regulatory role? It suggests that this will move in the right direction. We all feel very strongly that the Bill is a brilliant step in the right direction: things that were considered inconceivable four or five years ago can now be debated and legislated for.Q
The fundamental question for me comes down to enforcement. We know that it is difficult to enforce anything against offshore content providers; that is why in the original campaign we went for internet service providers that were British companies, for whom enforcement could work. What reassurance can you give us that enforcement, if you have the role of enforcement, could be carried out against foreign entities? Would it not be more appropriate to have a mandatory take-down regime if we found that a company was breaking British law by not asking for age verification, as defined in the Bill?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q Am I right in thinking that, for sites that are providing illegally copyrighted material, there is currently a take-down and blocking regime that does operate in the UK, regardless of their jurisdiction?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
First, can I verify that you both support adding in the power to require ISPs to block non-compliant sitesQ ?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q Good. That was quick. I just wanted to make sure that was there. What are your comments on widening the scope, so that age verification could be enforced for matters other than pornography, such as violent films or other content that we would not allow in the offline world? I am talking about things such as pro-anorexia websites. We know that this is possible to do in certain formats, because it is done for other things, such as copyright infringement. What are your views on widening the scope and the sanctions applying to that?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q Is there anything further that you think needs to be added to the Bill to make the sanctions regime work? I am also thinking—at the risk of going against what you just said, Mr Austin—about whether or not we should be considering sites that are not designed for commercial purposes but where pornography or other harmful material is available on a non-commercial basis; or things not designed for porn at all, such as Twitter timelines or Tumblr and other social media, where the main purpose may not be pornography or other harmful material, but it is available. Do you think the Bill has enough sanctions in it to cope with all of that, or should that be added? Is there anything else you would like to add?
Nigel Adams (Conservative, Selby and Ainsty)
Q Can you give us your perspective on the scale of the problem of under-18s’ access to this sort of inappropriate content? I guess it is difficult to do a study into it but, through the schools network and education departments, do you have any idea of the scale of the issue?
Nigel Adams (Conservative, Selby and Ainsty)
Q Has there been any follow-on, in terms of assaults perpetrated by youngsters as a result of being exposed to this?
Nigel Adams (Conservative, Selby and Ainsty)
Q By children?
Nigel Adams (Conservative, Selby and Ainsty)
Q Mr Austin, what constructive conversations and meetings have you had with ISPs thus far, in terms of the potential for blocking those sites—especially the sites generated abroad?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q Obviously, the BBFC is very experienced at classifying films according to certain classifications and categories. I am sure it is no easy task, but it is possible to use an objective set of criteria to define what is pornographic or disturbing, or is it subjective? How do you get that balance?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q In terms of skills and resources, are you confident you will be able to get the right people in to do the job properly? I am sure that it is quite a disturbing job in some cases.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q I just want to put on the record that we are delighted that the BBFC has signed the heads of agreement to regulate this area. I cannot think of a better organisation with the expertise and the experience to make it work. What proportion of viewed material do you think will be readily covered by the proposed mechanism in the Bill that you will be regulating the decision over but not the enforcement of?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q I am thinking about the scale of the problem—the number of views by under-18s of material that you deem to be pornographic. What proportion of the problem do you think the Bill, with your work, will fix?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q And what is accessed.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q So you would be confident of being able to deal with the vast majority of the problem.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q Yes. Given that there is a big problem that is hard to tackle and complicated, I was just trying to get a feel for how much of the problem you think, with your expertise and the Bill, we can fix.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q My question follows on neatly from that. While I am sure that the regulation will tackle those top 50 sites, it obviously comes nowhere near tackling the problems that Mr Wardle outlined, and the crimes, such as grooming, that can flow from those problems. There was a lot of discussion on Second Reading about peer-to-peer and social media sites that you have called “ancillary”. No regulation in the world is going to stop that. Surely, the most important way to tackle that is compulsory sex education at school.
Chris Matheson (Labour, City of Chester)
To follow on from the Minister’s question, you feel you are able to tackle roughly the top 50 most visited sites. Is there a danger that you then replace those with the next top 50 that are perhaps less regulated and less co-operative? How might we deal with that particular problem, if it existsQ ?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q Of those top 50 sites, do we know how many are UK-based?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q Secondly, I want to turn briefly to the issue of the UK’s video on demand content. My reading around clause 15 suggests that, although foreign-made videos on demand will be captured by the new provisions, UK-based will continue to be caught by Communications Act 2003 provisions. Do you think that is adequate?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
It is already done. Okay. Thank you.
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
May I move on to intellectual property?
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q Thank you. There are some welcome measures in the Bill relating to making the protection of intellectual property online as same as it is offline. I note, though, that there is some concern about search engines and how intellectual property would be policed. What is your view on how that will work? Do there need to be additional powers?
Examination of witnesses
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q In your written evidence, Mr Coates, you talked about the need for greater diversity in the ownership of mobile infrastructure. Does the Bill go far enough on that?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q What are the current proportions for ownership?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Does the Bill do anything to address that?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q It will not do anything to address the proportion, will it? It will only entrench the division already there.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q So there is potential for this to get worse, but what could be done to actually encourage more independently owned infrastructure?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Dr Whitley, if I may jump to part 5 of the Bill, we heard earlier that there were concerns that the Government have not taken sufficiently into account safeguards around privacy and personal data. Do you think that this strikes the right balance between open policy-making and privacy?Q
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q So the proposals do not reflect at all the three years of consultation that have taken place?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Should that detail be in primary legislation?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q In that period of consultation, was the detail around transparency never discussed?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q Mr Coates, what role should wireless technologies play in achieving the universal service obligation?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q What kind of timescales were you thinking about for the achievement of 5G?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q Is this roll-out likely through purely commercial models or do you see a role for some kind of Government support here?
Scott Mann (Conservative, North Cornwall)
One of the biggest challenges facing coastal and rural communities like mine is the problems with undulating coastlines and areas of outstanding natural beauty. I am interested in your thoughts on how we can strengthen the Bill to make sure we get out to some of the rural areas left behind in the pastQ .
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q I want to push Dr Whitley on the privacy question. I think that what you are asking for, a code of conduct and some clarity, is reasonable, but equally, we cannot know what the demands and the questions might be going forward, or the data requirements. I look back on where Government do share data, querying the national insurance database, or, indeed, the Government ID project, where DVLA records were queried as a measure of identity, it all appeared to be fine, there were no issues of privacy or data loss, to my knowledge. In a way, should we not be taking on trust—I know that trust is a word people never like to use with Government, whereas we trust corporates all the time with all kinds of data—that we have not had a problem and that the right rules and procedures and the spirit of privacy will be protected?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q Do large corporate families do that? Nobody ever reads the Ts and Cs, but if they do, do you give explicit permission for your data to be handled around the Facebook family, for example, in the way that you suggest Government should specify? That is just a question from ignorance.
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q It is an operational concern as well as a privacy concern?
Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))
Mr Coates, will you expand a little on your experience, internationally, of licence requirements in broadening coverage to rural areas? What is the specific benefit of independently owned infrastructure for rural communities, in bringing access to places which struggle with mobile signal today?Q
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
There was a Coates who played for Liverpool. He was from Uruguay, so they called him Co-ah-tez.
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q He will again.
I would like to ask you about the USO, and then I would like to come on to the mobile environment. I have a problem with the USO not just because of the lack of ambition and what 10 megabits means for people living in those areas, but because the tactical low-speed USO will not push fibre a lot further. The lines between wired and wireless are blurring all the time, so would a more ambitious USO with faster speeds help you, in terms of pushing fibre further and putting other infrastructure out there?
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q I will not ask you, then, whether the Scottish Government’s policy to have 30 megabits everywhere is more appropriate. I think that everyone is in agreement that the electronic communications code needed to be reformed, and there are some welcome measures in there, but as an independent infrastructure provider, do you honestly think that that will lead to more coverage by mobile providers, or will it simply give them a better bottom line?
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
May I ask two quick follow-ups?
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q Thank you very much. Mr Coates, I thought you gave a great overview of why independent infrastructure is really important. You obviously feel a concern, so is there specific wording that you would like to see in the Bill that we could discuss at the next stage to ensure that you are protected and the value of your assets is not lost?
Calum Kerr (Scottish National Party, Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk)
Q So that is a, “Yes, if possible, please.” It is okay; do not answer that. You have already answered. My final quick question is this. Although this is not retrospective, is there any case for excluding existing sites, if this is really about building out more network, in terms of the valuation element, given that a lot of those sites are actually on publicly owned land?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q Could you set out in more detail—you have already gone into this a bit—about what you mean when you say that the code should include land owned by the infrastructure providers but not the apparatus, and the distinction there in the written evidence?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q Thanks. I am also grateful for what you said about the team at DCMS, who will have picked up on your kind words I am sure. I wanted to follow up on 5G. You talked earlier about the 5G roll-out. This is a bigger-picture question. What do think the Government need to be doing now to ensure that we are in the lead when it comes to the roll-out of 5G?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q Thanks very much. Dr Whitely, would you say that, done right and should the codes come out right, the clauses in the Bill have the potential to improve public services through better use of data?
Drew Hendry (Scottish National Party, Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey)
Q I want to talk about the spectrum licensing issue. We spent a lot of time in earlier sessions talking about the minimum average speed, particularly for SMEs, as being 10 megabits per second and whether or not that was ambitious for the future.
You talked about the outside-in licensing regime that could be possible—and is possible in other countries since it is being deployed, particularly for new tech and for the 700Mhz and the 5G licensing that will come. If that approach is adopted by the UK Government in terms of licensing, is it your belief that it would make that inequality almost go away and that it would deliver much greater equality across the pace of speeds for people to access business and other methods that they need?
Drew Hendry (Scottish National Party, Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey)
Q So it would achieve that aim, in your view, and it would to a great extent future-proof the need to go to that level of where you are going from 10 megabits per second to a higher level, and then a higher level again. Is that correct?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q Dr Whitley, are you excited by the potential opportunities of the use of big data by Government?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q We are one of the most sophisticated digital economies on the planet and we have some of the brightest brains on the planet. Surely we can work this out.
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q Once we work that out, which I am confident we will, where are the opportunities? Where is the up side? Where is the positive stuff coming out of this? How can Government be better as a result of this? I am always an optimist.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q As you say, it is an enormous shift in terms of data sharing within Government. Clause 29 would allow personal data on citizens to be shared if there is a
“contribution made by them to society”
or wellbeing to be gained. That basically covers anything, doesn’t it? Why have the Government not produced even a draft code of practice at this stage? How can we possibly be expected to vote on this while plainly placing blind faith in the Government?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q How would you advise the Government to achieve that code of practice?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
I hope the Minister has heard that.
Examination of Witnesses
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q I will pick up where we left off, if that is okay. You were both involved in the consultation process for part 5 of the Bill. Did the proposals come as a surprise to you? Do they make sense to you as data experts?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q We talked earlier about the bulk transfer and bulk sharing of data, and an earlier witness talked about providing data access, rather than data sharing. Should the Government not be pursuing trials on that basis, rather than these enormous powers without any kind of assurances to the public or parliamentarians about how they will be using them?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q My questions are directed at Mr Killock and relate to paragraphs 37 and 38 of your submission, “Definition of pornographic material”. We heard earlier that both the NSPCC and the British Board of Film Classification support a provision to require ISPs to block websites that are non-compliant. There was also discussion of widening the scope to apply the restrictions to other harmful material that we would not allow children access to in the offline world. Here, you seem to be questioning the value of that:
“This extension of the definition…also raises questions as to why violent—but not sexual—materials rated as 18 should then be accessible online.”
I also question this consistency but the solution, to me, seems to be that we should include other material, such as violent material and pro-anorexic websites, as we talked about earlier. Will you tell us a bit more about what your objection is to creating a framework to keep children as safe online as they are offline?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q You have mentioned your feelings and your suspicions but, actually, the British Board of Film Classification already has a system for identifying for instance pro-anorexic, pro-suicide and violent websites. It already has a system for use on mobile networks.
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Yes, it does. They sat right here this afternoon.
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q Are you saying that that sort of system does not exist, because we were told that it did earlier?
Thangam Debbonaire (Labour, Bristol West)
Q Forgive me for interrupting Mr Killock, but there is a good reason. You asked about successful outcomes—and if you are going to ask a question, I am going to answer it—the successful outcome is that children are protected in the online world in the same way as they are protected in the offline world. I have to reiterate this to you: I do not understand why you think it is a risk worth taking that some adults may or may not have their own personal preferences infringed, balanced against the harm which we know is done to children. On teenage boys, just saying that because teenage boys may or may not continue to watch pornography there is no point, that seems to be a very sad conclusion to come to.
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Mr Killock, it is nice to hear you finally supporting the initiative. Indeed, all of the shroud waving about false blocking was brought out with vigour many times over the past five years—
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q My point is that it is sad that the campaign once again from your organisation is that the perfect must be the enemy of the good. I am afraid I would also question this issue of false blocking, and I would appreciate written evidence if you have it. It is a tiny fraction. It has never reached anything like the levels your organisation has claimed, and the processes for notification and unblocking have massively improved over the last five years. My question to you is: at what point does your organisation stop dealing with this world where it is, “Hands off our internet” and start accepting that content provision via the internet, which is just another form of provider, should have exactly the same safeguards as exist in the offline world?
Renate, your points around this are also quite disturbing because you are holding up for a perfect world—
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q No, the question is: will you provide us with written evidence of this issue of false blocking, in detail, because I happen to think it is completely untrue, your words on this?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q We would appreciate written evidence by next week. Thank you.
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q Hundreds? Of the 1.5 billion websites that are out there?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
I look forward to the evidence.
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q As a supplementary, does your organisation campaign against age verification on gambling sites on the internet?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q Even though exactly the same issues of privacy could apply?
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q Why? They are legal.
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
Q So your interest is not about legality. It is about your interpretation of legal and illegal material.
Claire Perry (Conservative, Devizes)
No, specifically about the part 5 questions.
Nigel Adams (Conservative, Selby and Ainsty)
Q My question is for Mr Killock, with regard to what the Bill is seeking to do in terms of equalisation of copyright offence penalties. I just wondered why your organisation was not in favour of rights holders—the tens of thousands of content creators. Why is your organisation not keen on the idea in the Bill?
Nigel Adams (Conservative, Selby and Ainsty)
Q Sorry to interrupt, but the idea of the Bill is not to go after people who are downloading content, it is purely for those who are uploading content for commercial gain. That is the whole purpose.
Nigel Adams (Conservative, Selby and Ainsty)
Q But if you are knowingly uploading creative content online for commercial gain, to my mind it does not matter whether it is 50 quid or 50,000 quid, you are knowingly stealing someone’s content.
Nigel Adams (Conservative, Selby and Ainsty)
Q What do you think is a reasonable limit? Where would you set the limit?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q As you have already recognised, this part of the Bill has already been subject to a consultation. There were 282 responses to that consultation, with the majority of them being broadly supportive. You have raised quite a few perfectly valid concerns, but do you accept that there is broad public support for the sharing of data when there is a clear social upside?
Nigel Huddleston (Conservative, Mid Worcestershire)
Q I am not sure whether we got a clear answer there. The Commons Library published a briefing, which includes statistics from an Ipsos MORI survey that you have probably seen before. The things that get public support are things such as:
“Creating a DNA database of cancer patients…Using data from electronic travel cards…to improve the scheduling of buses or trains…Using police and crime data to predict and plan for crimes that might take place in future”.
There is a clear public upside for some of the most vulnerable and hurt people in society; are we ever going to reach a point where you are satisfied with the use of data?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q A couple of questions. Would you be happy to share your blood type data to help cure cancer?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q Okay. You referred to the open policy-making process, which was a big process with lots of people involved, and the large majority are content with that process. Have you read all the individual responses to the consultation?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q They are on the internet, so you are very welcome to have a look at them.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q No, they are all published online.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q They are all published online. In an earlier exchange, you talked about the broad purposes of the Bill and the problem with parliamentary scrutiny of those purposes. I would just like to understand a bit more about what you meant.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q In an earlier exchange with Louise, you talked about the broad purposes of the Bill and how they are defined. You said that those purposes are very broad, and I think you said something like, “and therefore it can mean whatever the Government wants it to mean”. I do not understand that, because any sharing of data must be for purposes very specifically set out, for instance supporting troubled families and supporting families in fuel poverty. I think it would be very hard to be against those goals.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q They are referred to in secondary legislation, which will be scrutinised by Parliament.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q No, the safeguards are in the Bill. It is the purposes that are in the statutory instruments. It is interesting—
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q Okay. I want to refer to another point that I did not understand. You said that the problem with the Bill was that it referred to RIPA and the Data Protection Act 1998.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q But what exactly would you propose?
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q It just seems a totally odd point, because the Investigatory Powers Bill is not yet law and, as you can see from the screen, it is being debated in the Lords today. GDPR is not in domestic law yet.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Q I do not think it is possible to legislate on the basis of other legislation that has not yet passed.
Matthew Hancock (Conservative, West Suffolk)
Thank you very much for coming. I want to put on the record something relating to what happened at the end of the last session. For anyone who is interested and has not yet had the chance to find the responses to the consultation on data sharing, they are available on gov.uk/government/consultations/better-use-of-data-in-government. All the responses to the consultation are there.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Q Paul, the Government have delayed by a year outlining their digital strategy. Could you give the Ministers a hand here? What would you like to see in a digital industrial strategy?