Policing and Crime Bill
Public Bill Committee, 15 March 2016.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Before we begin, I have a few preliminary points. First, will people switch any electronic devices to silent? Tea and coffee are not allowed in sittings. Today, we will first consider the programme motion, and then the motions to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence sessions and to allow the reporting of written evidence for publication. To save time, I hope that we can take those matters formally.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
On the basis of the programme order, the deadline for amendments to be considered at the first line-by-line sitting of the Committee on 22 March is at the rise of the House on Thursday 17 March.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Copies of the written evidence the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room.
Examination of Witnesses
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Good morning and welcome. We will now hear oral evidence from the Police Superintendents Association of England and Wales, the Police Federation of England and Wales, and Unison. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick to the timings in the programme order. The Committee has agreed that we have until 10.45 am for this session. Will the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record, starting with Ben Priestley?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I think we have established who we all are.
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
May I add for completeness that in my practice as a barrister, I have represented a number of these organisations? That is my declaration of interest.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We have limited time available. I intend to move on and, if there is time left at the end, to deal with any additional questions then. Before moving on to a different line of questioning, is there anything that any of the witnesses wants to add to what has already been said that is in any way different? Otherwise, I will move straight on to the next questioners.
Jake Berry (Conservative, Rossendale and Darwen)
May I come back on that briefly?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Very briefly, because we have only four minutes left.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
In my anxiety to make progress, I think I knocked an hour off the amount of time we have got available. For the record, we have until 10.45 am.
Lyn Brown (Labour, West Ham)
May I ask two questions at the same time?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Yes.
Lyn Brown (Labour, West Ham)
You do not agree with it, then.
Mims Davies (Conservative, Eastleigh)
Road safety partnerships are clear examples of significant collaboration between services. I am surprised that that was not given as a clear example, but that is helpful .
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Before anyone answers that, I shall bring Lyn Brown in on a similar point and we can take the two questions together.
Jake Berry (Conservative, Rossendale and Darwen)
Could you answer my question?
Jake Berry (Conservative, Rossendale and Darwen)
So that will be a good thing?
Jake Berry (Conservative, Rossendale and Darwen)
So increasing collaboration will improve the service?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
This is quite an important issue in the Bill and I want to make sure that anybody who wants to pursue a point, particularly on collaboration, has the opportunity to do so. Will anyone who wants to do that signify now to me?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Before you answer that, there are two further questions on this area. I will take those and then, once we have responses, we can move on to another theme.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
There is quite a lot to go at there. Who wants to start? Chief Superintendent Thomas.
Mike Penning (Conservative, Hemel Hempstead)
I have sat and listened for a considerable time to the answers to the questions. I know four of you very well, although I do not know Mr Priestley at all. We have talked outside this room and I have seen huge amounts of collaboration taking place. What amazes me is that, when my colleague asked a moment ago, “Give me an example of where collaboration has worked”, there was almost complete silence from the federation and the Police Superintendents Association, although your members are out there doing it. There is a brand new fire station in Winchester that is also a police station, with an armed response unit in the yard. If the witnesses were outside this room and not on the panel, I am sure they would agree—because they have said so to me before—that it is very difficult when there are areas that refuse to collaborate. The purpose of the Bill is to bring that forward. When you were giving evidence a few moments ago, why did you not say that there is a huge amount of collaboration but it is not across the force? What really worried me is that, when asked about the effect on Wales, Mr Thomas said that yes, there would be an effect, but he had no idea what it would be. That is an unbelievable thing to say. When you said that there would be an effect on Wales, but could not tell us what it would be, what did you mean? Perhaps you could elaborate on the areas where collaboration is taking place very well and those where it is not, which the panel and you and I know to exist?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
There is a bit of a challenge there. We need to get responses, but I am anxious that we move on. There are many areas of the Bill that we have not yet covered.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I will take two quick questions, one from Carolyn Harris and one from Mims Davies, then we will move on .
Mims Davies (Conservative, Eastleigh)
My question was on a different point. I will wait until you move on.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Okay. Can you respond to that and I will then bring in Jack Dromey who has several points to make. Then we can take it from there .
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
May I use the Chair’s prerogative? There is an interesting dichotomy between, on one hand, someone who makes a misjudgment or human error and, on the other hand, someone who wilfully commits an act of misconduct. It is difficult to make a judgment about what was in their mind at the time when they took the action. How would you determine where that boundary is, or is it a matter of doing so case by case?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
That is a very interesting thought. Thanks very much.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We have four minutes left .
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Does any member of the Committee have a completely new question, or want to pursue something? Let us take three very quick questions.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We have three minutes left. I suggest that we take up Lyn Brown’s suggestion on firearms. It is so big a subject that we could not possibly cover it in the time available. If we could get some written evidence on that, it would be really helpful. Let us have some quick responses now on the other points.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
As there are no further questions, may I thank the witnesses for the clear and comprehensive way that they have answered a whole range of questions? We now need to move to the next panel. Thank you very much.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear evidence from the Fire Brigades Union, the Chief Fire Officers Association, the Association of Metropolitan Fire and Rescue Authorities and the West Midlands fire service. We have until 11.25 am to conduct this session. For the purposes of the record, may I begin by asking the witnesses to introduce themselves?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
First, I should thank people for taking the time and trouble to appear before the Committee today. We very much appreciate the wisdom that we hope you will be able to bring to our proceedings.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Does either Councillor Edwards or Councillor Hanratty want to say anything about the governance issue from the point of view of elected members?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Could you say a word about coterminosity and the devolution settlement in your region—our region?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I want to be careful about this. It is a perfectly legitimate line of questioning, but I am anxious that this session should not become about just one issue or one organisation, because there is a lot of expertise to be had, for the benefit of the Committee and therefore the Bill. It is a legitimate line of questioning, but I do not want it to dominate the proceedings. Do you want to come back on that, James?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear from Jack Dromey.
Jack Dromey (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)
In the words, therefore, of Dave Etheridge, a conversation—yes; greater collaboration—yes; but you are not supporting the notion of the potential hostile takeover? Is that the view of the fire service?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I think that is clear.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
This seems to be a theme that the Committee is anxious to discuss. I want to pursue it, but I am also aware that we only have 15 minutes left. I propose that anyone who wants to say anything about this particular theme—the accountability and visibility of the police and crime commissioner—pursues it now, and we will then hopefully move on to other things .
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Before you answer that, I will try to take all the different questions.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I am going to bring Jake Berry in and then try to get some quick responses, before we move on.
Jake Berry (Conservative, Rossendale and Darwen)
If they can remember the questions.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I think they will.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I know there is quite a lot in there, but it is all pretty much around the same theme. Shall I start with Councillor Edwards?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We are heading for the buffers in terms of time, so I will ask each of the respondents to be as brief as they possibly can. The Committee needs to understand that they will answer the questions in their own way, and it is for them to determine how they answer; there is not time for us to come back and cross-examine them. Mr Phil Loach, is there anything that you would like to add?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
The next question may have to be the last for this set of witnesses.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted to the Committee to ask questions. I thank the witnesses for their forbearance, the wisdom they have imparted to us and their evidence.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear evidence from Barnardo’s, the Children’s Society and the NSPCC. We have until 2.45 pm for this part of the session.
I thank the witnesses for coming along and providing us with the benefit of your advice. We really appreciate it. Perhaps you could introduce yourselves, starting with Iryna.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Anything else on resources?
Karen Bradley (Conservative, Staffordshire Moorlands)
I have a specific point for Iryna, but I want to say welcome to all three of you, whom I work with lots on a daily basis. Your work, Iryna, with the Children’s Society, particularly on missing children, is incredibly valuable; I thank you for all you have done on that.
I wanted to ask something specific about something that struck me as you were talking about child abduction notices. Obviously, the Children’s Society has had a big campaign about 16 and 17-year-olds, and you will know that section 2 of the Child Abduction Act 1984 is clear about the fact that it applies to 16-year-olds and under, not to anyone older, and that is the reason for the current position. I take the point that you make, but I wonder whether you can envisage any situations—I am thinking particularly of honour-based situations—where a child abduction notice issued about a 16 or 17-year-old who had left home of their own volition, perhaps because of honour-based problems, might end up being detrimental to the child. Do you have any thoughts on that?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We still have a bit of time left, so it might be helpful to ask whether there are any issues in the Bill that you have concerns about and about which we have not asked any questions. Is there anything you want to raise with us that we have not had the foresight to anticipate?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
If there are no further questions, I thank the witnesses for their evidence, which has been really helpful. We do appreciate it. We can now move on to the next panel, the members of which are already here.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear oral evidence from the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners. There are several police and crime commissioners here. We have until 3.15 pm for this session. Several of the witnesses are probably known to many of us, but for the sake of the record, could they introduce themselves, starting with Winston Roddick ?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Thank you. You are very welcome and we look forward to an informative and productive session. Jack Dromey.
Jack Dromey (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)
I must take the opportunity, Winston, given your announcement last week, to wish you all the best for the future, following your distinguished service.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
The other witnesses might have a different take on that.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I remind the Committee that this is not a debate, but an evidence-taking session.
James Cleverly (Conservative, Braintree)
You said that there can be no substitute—
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I hear one question from several voices: why?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Can this be a brief response, because we have a lot of ground to cover?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
How would we categorise him?
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
Yes, that is the point: under a disciplinary regime.
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
Police officers are not contracted anyway, but if volunteers are under a disciplinary regime does your objection fall away?
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
Special constables are under the disciplinary regime.
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
So what is wrong with volunteers being under exactly the same regime?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I think we are going around in circles.
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
Can the other PCCs come in on that question?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Yes, if they are brief. I thought that question was very specifically directed, but if any of the other witnesses want to add to that they are welcome to.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Unless there is anything that either of the other witnesses desperately wants to add to that, I intend to move on.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Sorry to interrupt, but we have 10 minutes left and several people who have not yet had an opportunity want to ask questions.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will take four questions. Then between you, where there is a common view, perhaps one of you could express it. Where there are differences of view—
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Finally, Jake Berry—I hope we will then have time for all the questions to be answered.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Who will answer first? Perhaps start with the north Wales-specific question .
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I am required by the programme motion to bring proceedings to a halt at 3.15 pm. David Jamieson and Vera have slightly less than five minutes to share between them. I do not know which way round you want to do it .
Jake Berry (Conservative, Rossendale and Darwen)
May I just bring you back—
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Order.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Order. I just tried to bring you to a halt because we have now reached 3.15 pm, which brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions of this group of witnesses. I am sure that your last comment will elicit some correspondence, but I am not sure that the whole Committee needs to hear it answered. I thank the witnesses for their wise evidence. If there is any disagreement between us, it is certainly conducted on a friendly basis.
Examination of witnesses
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear oral evidence from the National Police Chiefs Council and the Metropolitan Police Service. We have until 4 pm. Will the witnesses introduce themselves?
Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)
That is a difficult question.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I thank the witnesses for their evidence. Not only the brevity, but the accuracy of their responses means that we managed to finish earlier than anticipated. The Committee will be suspended for 15 minutes.
Examination of Witnesses
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear oral evidence from the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the “Get Maisie Home” campaign. We have until 4.30 pm for this session. I ask the two witnesses to introduce themselves for the record.
Jake Berry (Conservative, Rossendale and Darwen)
Thank you, we really appreciate that. We have the College of Policing coming next so I and other colleagues, I am sure, will raise that issue with them. That has been extremely helpful.
Karen Bradley (Conservative, Staffordshire Moorlands)
Well, the triage; so having mental health professionals with the police at the same time. Is that something you have experienced in your area?
Mike Penning (Conservative, Hemel Hempstead)
You could go and see where triage is taking place, outside your area so that you can experience that as well.
Karen Bradley (Conservative, Staffordshire Moorlands)
I would really like to show you the triage, so let us talk about that outside here.
Lyn Brown (Labour, West Ham)
You can give us as many areas as you like: we have got a listening Government.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
It is now 27 minutes past four. We have got three minutes left and two Members who want to ask questions. I do not think it is possible to get answers to two questions in the time available.
Jack Dromey (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)
I am happy not to ask mine .
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Thank you very much. On behalf of the Committee, I thank both of you for bringing your great wealth of professional and personal experience to our attention. It is very helpful. If there are no further questions, which there are not, can we move on to the next witnesses? Thank you.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear evidence from the Independent Police Complaints Commission and the College of Policing. This is our final panel today and we have until 5 pm. I should explain to our witnesses that we are bound by a timetable motion, so if I cut you off in mid-sentence at 5 o’clock, I am not being rude; I am simply fulfilling my obligations as the Chair.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I think we are getting into the realms of very lengthy questions and potentially lengthy answers, and a number of people want to get in. Perhaps just a quick word on this.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
You are asked to confirm an opinion, or not, but carry on.
James Cleverly (Conservative, Braintree)
Thank you.
Carolyn Harris (Labour, Swansea East)
Yes.
Mims Davies (Conservative, Eastleigh)
Thank you.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
If there are no further questions from hon. Members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence. It has been really helpful and insightful .
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
That is fine.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Before we begin, I have a few preliminary points. First, will people switch any electronic devices to silent? Tea and coffee are not allowed in sittings. Today, we will first consider the programme motion, and then the motions to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence sessions and to allow the reporting of written evidence for publication. To save time, I hope that we can take those matters formally.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
On the basis of the programme order, the deadline for amendments to be considered at the first line-by-line sitting of the Committee on 22 March is at the rise of the House on Thursday 17 March.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Copies of the written evidence the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Good morning and welcome. We will now hear oral evidence from the Police Superintendents Association of England and Wales, the Police Federation of England and Wales, and Unison. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick to the timings in the programme order. The Committee has agreed that we have until 10.45 am for this session. Will the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record, starting with Ben Priestley?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I think we have established who we all are.
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
May I add for completeness that in my practice as a barrister, I have represented a number of these organisations? That is my declaration of interest.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We have limited time available. I intend to move on and, if there is time left at the end, to deal with any additional questions then. Before moving on to a different line of questioning, is there anything that any of the witnesses wants to add to what has already been said that is in any way different? Otherwise, I will move straight on to the next questioners.
Jake Berry (Conservative, Rossendale and Darwen)
May I come back on that briefly?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Very briefly, because we have only four minutes left.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
In my anxiety to make progress, I think I knocked an hour off the amount of time we have got available. For the record, we have until 10.45 am.
Lyn Brown (Labour, West Ham)
May I ask two questions at the same time?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Yes.
Lyn Brown (Labour, West Ham)
You do not agree with it, then.
Mims Davies (Conservative, Eastleigh)
Road safety partnerships are clear examples of significant collaboration between services. I am surprised that that was not given as a clear example, but that is helpful .
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Before anyone answers that, I shall bring Lyn Brown in on a similar point and we can take the two questions together.
Jake Berry (Conservative, Rossendale and Darwen)
Could you answer my question?
Jake Berry (Conservative, Rossendale and Darwen)
So that will be a good thing?
Jake Berry (Conservative, Rossendale and Darwen)
So increasing collaboration will improve the service?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
This is quite an important issue in the Bill and I want to make sure that anybody who wants to pursue a point, particularly on collaboration, has the opportunity to do so. Will anyone who wants to do that signify now to me?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Before you answer that, there are two further questions on this area. I will take those and then, once we have responses, we can move on to another theme.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
There is quite a lot to go at there. Who wants to start? Chief Superintendent Thomas.
Mike Penning (Conservative, Hemel Hempstead)
I have sat and listened for a considerable time to the answers to the questions. I know four of you very well, although I do not know Mr Priestley at all. We have talked outside this room and I have seen huge amounts of collaboration taking place. What amazes me is that, when my colleague asked a moment ago, “Give me an example of where collaboration has worked”, there was almost complete silence from the federation and the Police Superintendents Association, although your members are out there doing it. There is a brand new fire station in Winchester that is also a police station, with an armed response unit in the yard. If the witnesses were outside this room and not on the panel, I am sure they would agree—because they have said so to me before—that it is very difficult when there are areas that refuse to collaborate. The purpose of the Bill is to bring that forward. When you were giving evidence a few moments ago, why did you not say that there is a huge amount of collaboration but it is not across the force? What really worried me is that, when asked about the effect on Wales, Mr Thomas said that yes, there would be an effect, but he had no idea what it would be. That is an unbelievable thing to say. When you said that there would be an effect on Wales, but could not tell us what it would be, what did you mean? Perhaps you could elaborate on the areas where collaboration is taking place very well and those where it is not, which the panel and you and I know to exist?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
There is a bit of a challenge there. We need to get responses, but I am anxious that we move on. There are many areas of the Bill that we have not yet covered.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I will take two quick questions, one from Carolyn Harris and one from Mims Davies, then we will move on .
Mims Davies (Conservative, Eastleigh)
My question was on a different point. I will wait until you move on.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Okay. Can you respond to that and I will then bring in Jack Dromey who has several points to make. Then we can take it from there .
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
May I use the Chair’s prerogative? There is an interesting dichotomy between, on one hand, someone who makes a misjudgment or human error and, on the other hand, someone who wilfully commits an act of misconduct. It is difficult to make a judgment about what was in their mind at the time when they took the action. How would you determine where that boundary is, or is it a matter of doing so case by case?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
That is a very interesting thought. Thanks very much.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We have four minutes left .
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Does any member of the Committee have a completely new question, or want to pursue something? Let us take three very quick questions.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We have three minutes left. I suggest that we take up Lyn Brown’s suggestion on firearms. It is so big a subject that we could not possibly cover it in the time available. If we could get some written evidence on that, it would be really helpful. Let us have some quick responses now on the other points.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
As there are no further questions, may I thank the witnesses for the clear and comprehensive way that they have answered a whole range of questions? We now need to move to the next panel. Thank you very much.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear evidence from the Fire Brigades Union, the Chief Fire Officers Association, the Association of Metropolitan Fire and Rescue Authorities and the West Midlands fire service. We have until 11.25 am to conduct this session. For the purposes of the record, may I begin by asking the witnesses to introduce themselves?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
First, I should thank people for taking the time and trouble to appear before the Committee today. We very much appreciate the wisdom that we hope you will be able to bring to our proceedings.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Does either Councillor Edwards or Councillor Hanratty want to say anything about the governance issue from the point of view of elected members?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Could you say a word about coterminosity and the devolution settlement in your region—our region?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I want to be careful about this. It is a perfectly legitimate line of questioning, but I am anxious that this session should not become about just one issue or one organisation, because there is a lot of expertise to be had, for the benefit of the Committee and therefore the Bill. It is a legitimate line of questioning, but I do not want it to dominate the proceedings. Do you want to come back on that, James?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear from Jack Dromey.
Jack Dromey (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)
In the words, therefore, of Dave Etheridge, a conversation—yes; greater collaboration—yes; but you are not supporting the notion of the potential hostile takeover? Is that the view of the fire service?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I think that is clear.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
This seems to be a theme that the Committee is anxious to discuss. I want to pursue it, but I am also aware that we only have 15 minutes left. I propose that anyone who wants to say anything about this particular theme—the accountability and visibility of the police and crime commissioner—pursues it now, and we will then hopefully move on to other things .
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Before you answer that, I will try to take all the different questions.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I am going to bring Jake Berry in and then try to get some quick responses, before we move on.
Jake Berry (Conservative, Rossendale and Darwen)
If they can remember the questions.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I think they will.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I know there is quite a lot in there, but it is all pretty much around the same theme. Shall I start with Councillor Edwards?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We are heading for the buffers in terms of time, so I will ask each of the respondents to be as brief as they possibly can. The Committee needs to understand that they will answer the questions in their own way, and it is for them to determine how they answer; there is not time for us to come back and cross-examine them. Mr Phil Loach, is there anything that you would like to add?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
The next question may have to be the last for this set of witnesses.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted to the Committee to ask questions. I thank the witnesses for their forbearance, the wisdom they have imparted to us and their evidence.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear evidence from Barnardo’s, the Children’s Society and the NSPCC. We have until 2.45 pm for this part of the session.
I thank the witnesses for coming along and providing us with the benefit of your advice. We really appreciate it. Perhaps you could introduce yourselves, starting with Iryna.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Anything else on resources?
Karen Bradley (Conservative, Staffordshire Moorlands)
I have a specific point for Iryna, but I want to say welcome to all three of you, whom I work with lots on a daily basis. Your work, Iryna, with the Children’s Society, particularly on missing children, is incredibly valuable; I thank you for all you have done on that.
I wanted to ask something specific about something that struck me as you were talking about child abduction notices. Obviously, the Children’s Society has had a big campaign about 16 and 17-year-olds, and you will know that section 2 of the Child Abduction Act 1984 is clear about the fact that it applies to 16-year-olds and under, not to anyone older, and that is the reason for the current position. I take the point that you make, but I wonder whether you can envisage any situations—I am thinking particularly of honour-based situations—where a child abduction notice issued about a 16 or 17-year-old who had left home of their own volition, perhaps because of honour-based problems, might end up being detrimental to the child. Do you have any thoughts on that?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We still have a bit of time left, so it might be helpful to ask whether there are any issues in the Bill that you have concerns about and about which we have not asked any questions. Is there anything you want to raise with us that we have not had the foresight to anticipate?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
If there are no further questions, I thank the witnesses for their evidence, which has been really helpful. We do appreciate it. We can now move on to the next panel, the members of which are already here.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear oral evidence from the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners. There are several police and crime commissioners here. We have until 3.15 pm for this session. Several of the witnesses are probably known to many of us, but for the sake of the record, could they introduce themselves, starting with Winston Roddick ?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Thank you. You are very welcome and we look forward to an informative and productive session. Jack Dromey.
Jack Dromey (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)
I must take the opportunity, Winston, given your announcement last week, to wish you all the best for the future, following your distinguished service.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
The other witnesses might have a different take on that.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I remind the Committee that this is not a debate, but an evidence-taking session.
James Cleverly (Conservative, Braintree)
You said that there can be no substitute—
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I hear one question from several voices: why?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Can this be a brief response, because we have a lot of ground to cover?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
How would we categorise him?
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
Yes, that is the point: under a disciplinary regime.
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
Police officers are not contracted anyway, but if volunteers are under a disciplinary regime does your objection fall away?
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
Special constables are under the disciplinary regime.
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
So what is wrong with volunteers being under exactly the same regime?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I think we are going around in circles.
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
Can the other PCCs come in on that question?
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Yes, if they are brief. I thought that question was very specifically directed, but if any of the other witnesses want to add to that they are welcome to.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Unless there is anything that either of the other witnesses desperately wants to add to that, I intend to move on.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Sorry to interrupt, but we have 10 minutes left and several people who have not yet had an opportunity want to ask questions.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will take four questions. Then between you, where there is a common view, perhaps one of you could express it. Where there are differences of view—
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Finally, Jake Berry—I hope we will then have time for all the questions to be answered.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Who will answer first? Perhaps start with the north Wales-specific question .
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I am required by the programme motion to bring proceedings to a halt at 3.15 pm. David Jamieson and Vera have slightly less than five minutes to share between them. I do not know which way round you want to do it .
Jake Berry (Conservative, Rossendale and Darwen)
May I just bring you back—
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Order.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Order. I just tried to bring you to a halt because we have now reached 3.15 pm, which brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions of this group of witnesses. I am sure that your last comment will elicit some correspondence, but I am not sure that the whole Committee needs to hear it answered. I thank the witnesses for their wise evidence. If there is any disagreement between us, it is certainly conducted on a friendly basis.
Examination of witnesses
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear oral evidence from the National Police Chiefs Council and the Metropolitan Police Service. We have until 4 pm. Will the witnesses introduce themselves?
Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)
That is a difficult question.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I thank the witnesses for their evidence. Not only the brevity, but the accuracy of their responses means that we managed to finish earlier than anticipated. The Committee will be suspended for 15 minutes.
Examination of Witnesses
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear oral evidence from the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the “Get Maisie Home” campaign. We have until 4.30 pm for this session. I ask the two witnesses to introduce themselves for the record.
Jake Berry (Conservative, Rossendale and Darwen)
Thank you, we really appreciate that. We have the College of Policing coming next so I and other colleagues, I am sure, will raise that issue with them. That has been extremely helpful.
Karen Bradley (Conservative, Staffordshire Moorlands)
Well, the triage; so having mental health professionals with the police at the same time. Is that something you have experienced in your area?
Mike Penning (Conservative, Hemel Hempstead)
You could go and see where triage is taking place, outside your area so that you can experience that as well.
Karen Bradley (Conservative, Staffordshire Moorlands)
I would really like to show you the triage, so let us talk about that outside here.
Lyn Brown (Labour, West Ham)
You can give us as many areas as you like: we have got a listening Government.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
It is now 27 minutes past four. We have got three minutes left and two Members who want to ask questions. I do not think it is possible to get answers to two questions in the time available.
Jack Dromey (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)
I am happy not to ask mine .
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
Thank you very much. On behalf of the Committee, I thank both of you for bringing your great wealth of professional and personal experience to our attention. It is very helpful. If there are no further questions, which there are not, can we move on to the next witnesses? Thank you.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
We will now hear evidence from the Independent Police Complaints Commission and the College of Policing. This is our final panel today and we have until 5 pm. I should explain to our witnesses that we are bound by a timetable motion, so if I cut you off in mid-sentence at 5 o’clock, I am not being rude; I am simply fulfilling my obligations as the Chair.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
I think we are getting into the realms of very lengthy questions and potentially lengthy answers, and a number of people want to get in. Perhaps just a quick word on this.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
You are asked to confirm an opinion, or not, but carry on.
James Cleverly (Conservative, Braintree)
Thank you.
Carolyn Harris (Labour, Swansea East)
Yes.
Mims Davies (Conservative, Eastleigh)
Thank you.
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
If there are no further questions from hon. Members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence. It has been really helpful and insightful .
George Howarth (Labour, Knowsley)
That is fine.
Tuesday 15 March 2016
Examination of Witnesses
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
May I add for completeness that in my practice as a barrister, I have represented a number of these organisations? That is my declaration of interest.
Jack Dromey (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)
GoodQ morning. I would like to ask questions on four parts of the Bill, starting with part 3 on the police workforce. In your view, what issues are raised by what is proposed in the Bill, including potentially to arm directly employed and volunteer police community support officers with CS or PAVA spray?