Housing and Planning Bill

House of Lords, 3 March 2016.

Committee (3rd Day)

Lord Shipley (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendment 41B. Amendment 37B would require a mortgage to be taken out when buying a starter home—in other words, cash sales would not be permitted. Amendment 41B would require a first-time buyer to occupy the dwelling as his or her principal residence.

I can almost hear the Minister’s reply—

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

Order. May I ask the noble Lord to give us a second while noble Lords leave the Chamber? We cannot hear anything he is saying and we do not wish to miss a word of it.

Lord Shipley (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, I shall start again in a moment.

I can almost hear the Minister’s reply, which may be to tell us that all this will be made clearer in regulations, but as the Minister well knows, we have no regulations. There are no draft regulations and it is essential that, before Report, we have regulations which explain clearly what the Government’s intentions are on matters such as buy to let, subletting for short periods and leaving and letting a starter home within five years. In the case of this probing amendment, we need to know whether payment for a starter home can be in cash. I hope that the Government will rule this out today.

The basic principle is that cash buyers do not need a starter home. The simplest way to address this is via a requirement that the purchaser takes out a mortgage. Indeed, a key part of the National Planning Policy Framework definition of affordable housing is an eligibility test, with its provision for those whose needs are not met by the market. However, that is not a cash buyer, whose needs can self-evidently be met by the market. Therefore confirming in the Bill that anyone buying a starter home must do so via a mortgage would restrict market abuse.

Amendment 41B would require a first-time buyer to occupy their starter home as a principal residence. Thus, starter homes must not become second homes, and buy to let should be prohibited. However, there may need to be some consideration prior to regulations being published about how a property could be let out for short periods, where, for example, a purchaser of a starter home has a six-month temporary work transfer to another place. Therefore I am very keen to know what the Government’s thinking is on this matter. In the face of the fact that the Bill lacks so very much detail—even the technical briefings lack detail to enable us to respond properly to exactly what is planned—I hope very much that the Minister will be able to clarify these matters.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour)

My Lords, this group of amendments contains some important provisions that would be welcome on the face of the Bill and should not be left hanging in the air to be covered by regulations at some point in the future. Amendment 37B, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, would add the words “via a mortgage”. It is extremely important that we are clear about this, because if the property was purchased in any other way, such as by a cash buyer, that would signal that the person or persons had no need to take advantage of a product with a generous discount that could be realised in a relatively short space of time.

Equally, Amendment 41B, which is also in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, makes clear that the person who buys the property should buy it to be their home. Again, I am fully supportive of that.

On government Amendment 42A, I will be interested to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, explain the reasoning behind the proposed change to the words in Clause 2(3)(c).

Amendment 43, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Beecham, would add the criteria of “lives or works locally” to the Bill. That is aimed specifically at helping local people to take priority in getting a home in their local area rather than being forced to go somewhere else, and would help in building stable communities. I will be interested to hear the Government’s reasoning for their Amendments 44A and 44B in turn, which seem to turn on its head the requirement that individuals should be under 40. Is this because the Government have realised that in the present climate it will be very difficult for people under 40 to get a deposit together? Does the Minister envisage that this will apply to all areas of England or maybe just London in particular, where there is a problem with the affordability of housing?

Amendment 45, in my name and in the name of my noble friend Lord Beecham, would place a duty on the Secretary of State to consult the relevant local authorities and/or the Mayor of London when seeking to vary the price cap for starter homes. The requirement to consult relevant bodies when considering making this price cap change is good practice and will aid the Secretary of State in understanding the specific local circumstances that he or she should probably take into account when making such a change.

Lord Young of Cookham (Conservative)

My Lords, perhaps I may make a brief intervention following specifically Amendment 43, which the noble Lord just mentioned. I note with some alarm that, as we approach the third day of this stage of the Bill, we have now reached line 11 of page 1 of a 100-page Bill.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

Will the noble Lord not agree that that is because we have taken the clauses out of order?

Lord Young of Cookham (Conservative)

If indeed we have made slightly swifter progress than that arithmetical calculation would—

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

Will he not therefore agree that his point is not a valid one?

Lord Young of Cookham (Conservative)

Returning to the theme, Amendment 43 seeks to add a qualification for those who are eligible for starter homes. I think that this is going to be a very popular product and that it will be oversubscribed. That raises the question of how one prioritises those who bid for the starter homes. Amendment 43 suggests one such restriction or qualification—namely, that people should live or work locally.

There may be other ways of managing demand. On Tuesday, I suggested that the product should be targeted at existing social tenants in order to free up a re-let, or at those on the waiting list in order to enable those behind them to move forward. There may be other ways of managing demand. Historically, we have had schemes for key workers—for example, teachers or nurses—who may need to live in a particular area.

When my noble friend replies, can she indicate how demand for the product will be managed, given that it will be oversubscribed? Will it be first come, first served, or will there be some eligibility qualifications such as those mentioned in Amendment 43 or those that I mentioned on Tuesday to ensure that the maximum benefit to the community as a whole is achieved from this exciting government initiative?

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

My Lords, the thrust of these amendments, as I read them, is to try to deal with potential abuse of the system. I had thought of giving notice of my opposition to the clause as a way of dealing with these matters, but I think that I should deal with a number of issues on the back of these amendments because all my comments basically deal with the potential for abuse.

Perhaps I may go through some of the figures, because it seems that there are substantial profits to be made out of this scheme. Let us take as an example the starter price of £450,000 for a house or flat in London, which will probably be at the lower end of the market. I know that the Government say that there will be cheaper properties than that available in London but I certainly do not believe it from what I have seen recently of the property market in London. The market price of that property will actually be £560,000 but it will be sold for £450,000. Working out the figures on the basis of a 4% increase per annum, over five years there would be a 25% increase. I say that because the latest survey from the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors predicts a 25% increase in prices over the next five years. An increase of 4% per annum compounded gives £582,000 in the first year, £605,000 in the second year, £631,000 in the third year, £656,000 in the fourth year and £682,000 in the fifth year. In other words, you buy a house for £450,000 and, at the end of five years, you make a profit of £232,000 on the back of the people, because essentially this is funded by the people.

Let us take a starter price of £250,000 outside London. The actual market price of such a property is £310,000. It is worth £322,000 after the first year, £335,000 after the second year, and it goes up to £377,000 in year 5. So if you buy a £250,000 house, you will sell it with a profit of £127,000 on the basis of the RICS valuation. I think that these valuations are very low. It is quite possible that in London the prices will go up substantially more than that and we will see far greater capital gains. The same obviously applies to the £150,000 purchase that we talked about the other day. The market price of that property would be £187,000 and you would end up with a £78,000 profit on the basis of a 4% increase per year. I was doing these calculations in bed last night at one o’clock in the morning and I think they are fairly accurate.

Substantial profits are available under this scheme, and we all know what happens when a lot of profit is available, particularly in schemes where the Government are involved. People very often will organise their private affairs to maximise the profit that they can make. Therefore, in the regulatory arrangements that are introduced we have to be absolutely sure that we have covered all the potential arrangements that might be introduced, and I will just give one or two of them.

A qualifying person is set out in Section 57AA(2) of the Finance Act 2003 as a person who has not acquired freehold or leasehold residential property in the United Kingdom or elsewhere in the world. In other words, it is their first home. What happens when the beneficiary to a will inherits a £40,000 house in, let us say, the area where the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is a counsellor? That is the price of a house in Colne or other parts of Lancashire. Does it mean that the person who inherits that house—effectively, they have acquired it, which is what it says in the 2003 Act—loses the right to buy a starter home? They would already have acquired a house through their inheritance, and the Act does not say “purchased”, it says “acquired”. What would happen in that particular case? Would they still retain the right to buy a starter home, having already inherited that £40,000 terraced house in Lancashire?

What about the cash purchaser who the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, referred to? The noble Lord argued that cash purchases should not be allowed in these circumstances. He said that we should be sure that these houses are purchased under mortgage arrangements. However, someone could buy a house under a mortgage arrangement but it is the scale of the mortgage that matters. In other words, if we are to preclude cash purchasers, the regulations have to define how much of the purchase price of the house can be cash if there is a requirement to have a mortgage on the house. Will the Minister answer that? Again, that should be set out in the regulations.

What about a sham mortgage followed by a cash payment? Someone could take out a mortgage but then, three months later, pay cash; they always intended to pay cash but knew that the only way round the scheme was to take out a mortgage. Again, that has to be set out in the regulations.

What about the circumstances where a parent or relative, or even a friend, purchases in the name of the legitimate purchaser and then takes a charge on the property to take out a proportion of the profit at the end of the five years? In other words, the purchaser in fact was not the person whose name is on the deed and, by way of some charge, the actual purchaser is able to take the profit out of the deal at the end of the five-year period. Some might say that I am going a bit over the top by suggesting that these things might happen. However, there is a lot of profit in this and a lot of people will see great advantage in getting involved in these deals to take out the profit at the end of the five-year period. So again, we must ensure that the regulations cover the circumstances in which something like that might happen.

What happens if people acquire by purchase another property during the five-year period; in other words, they now have two homes? They have the home which has been subsidised with its vast profit potential and then they buy another home during that period. Whereas at the moment it is the second home which is subject to capital gains tax, in those special circumstances it might be that the first home should be subject to it. If someone can afford to buy a second home, having bought the first home under a subsidised arrangement, surely the starter home should be treated as the second home and be subject to some sort of tax gain to the Exchequer.

I move on to the question of the developer. How do we know that the developer will not inflate the price? The developer is supposed to offer the property at 25% less than market value—

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

It is 20%.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

I am sorry, 20%. Having done that, the developer might simply inflate the starter price. Who will determine what the real market price is of that property? Again we are going to need some pretty subtle guidance here because, when I talked this morning to some local authority people in Bristol, it was made clear to me that one of the great flaws in this legislation is over the valuation of starter home properties. Although I do not have the quote with me, I understand that James Lang LaSalle, a firm that will be well known to Members of this House with an interest in this area, has expressed grave concern about the question of inflated prices by developers.

Further, how can we prevent developers charging excessive ground rents on the leasehold properties they sell? We have noticed over recent years that, when there is a boom in the market, the length of leases on flats in London invariably seems to shrink down to 99 or 125 years, but when the market is bad very often the same blocks, at new-build stage, are sold on 999-year leases. Developers may sell properties on shorter leases with high ground rents and then even with truncated review periods, whereby instead of the review being made every 21 years it might be every 10 years. The reason they do that is simple. When it comes to the enfranchisement of the lease, developers will secure a higher price when the leaseholder buys the freehold, because of course the sale of the lease is dependent on the annual ground rent for the property. In my view the law should provide that such properties cannot be sold with less than 999-year leases and regulations should define the review period for ground rents. I do not know how it would be done, but it might be sensible to set up an arrangement whereby even ground rent maximums can be defined. Some might say that the only properties that could be sold should be freehold or share of freehold to avoid the problems I am talking about.

We keep hearing references to repayable discounts. In my discussions this morning, no one understands them to be repayable at all. I keep being told that what is happening is that annually the property is simply sold at a discounted rate further down the line up to five years. I am finding it hard to work out how that will happen. We need at this stage an explanation of how the discount system is actually going to work on resales within the first five years, because as yet no one has given me a satisfactory explanation. Moreover, what happens in a declining market? The market dropped in 1973, 1981 and 1992, with a minor drop in 2008. I know, because I have lived long enough to have experienced those falls on all four occasions. The discount on a £150,000 property is £37,000, on a £250,000 property it is £60,000, and on one worth £450,000 it is £110,000. What happens to those discounts in a declining market? Since I do not understand how the system works in terms of preserving the discounts during the first five-year period, I cannot work out what would happen in relation to those discounts. Is there some calculation which proportionately affects the amount of discount which has to be allowed on the subsequent sale of the property?

I think that I have dealt with most of what came to mind overnight when I was thinking about these things. What I am basically saying is that this system will be abused by people who want to make a lot of profit very fast—they will regard it as very fast—over a five-year period. Under this scheme, if people can build it into an investment, they can make a 50% return over five years. That will be very attractive to a lot of people. It invites abuse. Therefore, the regulatory arrangements that govern the scheme have to be sophisticated enough to ensure that that abuse does not take place and that taxpayers’ interests are protected.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour)

Does my noble friend agree that one reason for raising these points today is the wholly unsatisfactory way that the Bill has been put in front of us? We have no regulations and we will get none before the Bill is passed into law. It is a ridiculous situation and why we have raised these points.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Labour)

My Lords, building on some of the things that my noble friend has said about Amendment 41B, what can be done to ensure that starter homes sold with a discount cannot immediately be sold on to second home owners or to people renting them out as holiday homes? As we know, in many areas of the country, especially rural and coastal areas, while properties are sold and people have homes, these homes are not lived in all the time. Therefore, notwithstanding that the homes have owners, the essence of these communities is hollowed out because people are not there all the time; they become real communities only at certain times of the year, and the schools, the pubs and the shops all close. Can anything be done, if we persist with this 20% discount, to ensure that communities still thrive and that people are not able to sell these properties on as second homes?

The Government, in seeking to enable people to buy these starter homes, intend that if a person is under the age of 40, as I understand it, they still qualify to buy one. I do not think that the government amendments go far enough. Is the Bill, even as amended, compliant with the Equality Act? There is discrimination, I would say, against people over the age of 40.

Lord Beecham (Labour)

My Lords, I suspect that the Minister will be grateful that my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours eventually managed to get some sleep, having burned the midnight oil on what has been an absolutely forensic analysis of these proposals in the Bill and the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley.

I had intended to ask the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, how much of a mortgage would disqualify and for how long would it have to be held under the terms of his amendments. How would the maintenance of a mortgage be monitored? If a mortgage were paid off after a year or two, or three or whatever, would that change the situation in relation to the discount? How would residence be monitored, for that matter? Is somebody supposed to call every so often to check who is occupying the property? On a lesser topic, would very short lets of the Airbnb kind interfere with the concept that the Government have advanced? I understand the intentions of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, but there are significant problems in realising the objective, with which the Opposition agree, of ensuring that only genuine first-time buyers are covered.

There is also a question about the meaning of locality. Amendment 44 states:

“The meaning of ‘locally’ … shall be defined by the relevant local authority or the Greater London Authority”.

If the Government are disposed to accept this amendment—which would be sensible because someone has to ensure that this is a locally based scheme—I wonder whether, in addition to the terms of the amendment as it stands, “local authority” could be defined as including combined authorities where they exist. Combined authorities will usually have a strategic role in the housing market and development—certainly some agreements have now been signed—and it would incongruous if, in an area designated as one for which it has some housing responsibility, the combined authority was not included in the process of determining the locality for obtaining a grant of this kind. If the Government are disposed to accept the principle of Amendment 44, perhaps that further refinement could be taken on board.

I agree with the suggestions made by the noble Lord, Lord Young. It would be right to look at the range of issues that he has covered and I hope that the Minister will indicate a sympathetic stance—he has already made the point, so she has had a couple of days to think about it—and apply his suggestions to the scheme as it develops. It is to be hoped that, on Report, the Government will reflect at least that much in their own amendments.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

My Lords, I have a simple question—this is not a speech—to ask the Minister. As far as I can see, the only effective constraint—apart from the price or value of the property—is the age of the applicant for a starter home, who has to be under 40. We all share a common wish to ensure that home ownership is available to people on modest incomes where it makes sense for their lives, but what about the displacement issue? In quite a number of cities where there are universities, colleges and so on, people do not expect to enter the home ownership market until they are around 30 or so—they are doing PhDs and so on—at which point they enjoy relatively generous salaries and could well afford first-time homes on the open market without taking any advantage of the discount. However, because the discount is there with no income-cap qualification to its retirement, we will see people who have quite generous incomes—and whose income increases will also be quite generous—able to pocket this public subsidy paid for by taxpayers, often with incomes much lower, and then trade up as soon as they get their first promotion. Why is the Minister not considering an income cap as well as an age cap to ensure that people who can buy without discount should?

Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Conservative)

My Lords, all sorts of scenarios have been put forward, many of which I agree with, including the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, that there will be people who will find ways around the regulations and buy these houses unscrupulously.

I remember when I was a local councillor it was decided that local councils should not be owners of property and we sold off houses near to here on the basis that they were offered to sitting tenants at an incredibly low price. It is hard to believe that you could buy a house near Smith Square for £50,000, but that is what they were. After we sold all of these properties to the sitting tenant, one was left vacant and sold for £150,000. There was a huge difference between the property values; in fact, I think the sitting value was out of touch with values at the time. It annoyed me to discover that one of the people who had bought as a supposed sitting tenant was nothing but a front man for someone who could well have paid anything. So, a lot of the abuses suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, will happen—I hope not too many, but someone is always working out a way around things to get a personal advantage.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, commented on the issue of whether a person has bought a property as a genuine place to live in and whether, to ensure this, there might be letting restrictions and various conditions applied. This leads me back to the point which has been made again and again, that until we have regulations we honestly do not know how we are going to care about and deal with this. That is the greatest worry of all.

Lord Greaves (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, I want to speak to government Amendment 45B. I was wondering if I should wait until the Minister had spoken to it but I think it is probably better that I speak now and that she hears what I have to say. If the Committee is happy for me to do that, I will.

The amendment proposes quite an extraordinarily far-reaching Henry VIII power. It simply says:

“Regulations under this section may amend this Chapter”.

That is as far-reaching as is possible. It suggests that the Government are not quite sure—perhaps it is stronger than that—whether they have got it right in this chapter on starter homes, and therefore that they want a provision to be able to change it in any way and at any time, subject to parliamentary approval. Of course, we keep being told that the House of Lords is not allowed to oppose these things, anyway.

In what ways can this chapter be amended, either as we go through this procedure in Committee now or in the future by regulations, to deal with the fundamental problem, which I keep banging on about, that housing markets are different in different places? There are parts of the country—not just in north-east Lancashire but in lots of other areas too—where the housing market is not buoyant but flat and fragile. In these places, the introduction of starter homes into the system could have serious unintended consequences which harm the market rather than boost it.

I want to give noble Lords the prices of three or four houses for sale at the moment. In so doing, I refer to the asking prices in the property supplement of the wonderful newspapers, the Nelson Leader and the Colne Times, published on Friday—so they are up to date. I have to say that in our area houses often go for less than the asking price; the idea of forcing prices up is not known to us.

I was taken by one of the featured properties at the beginning of this supplement because it is in the ward I represent, which is normally not featured. It is one of their top properties and a two-fronted terrace house. It is described as:

“Immaculately presented and substantial in size … dwelling has two reception rooms … three bedrooms”,

et cetera. It is obviously highly modernised. It continues:

“The garden has an area of hardstanding … and views toward Pendle Hill”.

What more does anybody want? An offer—and this is incredibly high for a terraced house in this part of Colne—of £110,000 is being sought by the owners.

The auctioned houses are presumably being auctioned because they have been repossessed. From the look of them, they may well be repossessed buy-to-let landlords’ properties. Three of them are being sold: at £35,000, £40,000 and £50,000. They are all in Colne—and prices in Nelson and Brierfield are lower than in Colne. Good terraced houses in good condition, aimed perhaps at owner-occupiers, are being sold at £70,000 and £80,000. The one I have just mentioned is at the absolute top end: £110,000. I will refer to just one more. This is a new house. When I say that it is a new house, it was built about 10 years ago, so it is not brand new. I can confirm that it is a very nice property. The description is estate agent blurb. Nevertheless, it states:

“There are three good sized bedrooms and a family bathroom. Gas central heating … This beautiful family home offers both stylish and spacious living accommodation”.

And it is a nice house—a snip at £139,950.

The cost of putting a similar house on the market now would be about £150,000. There is a greenfield site which now has planning permission situated quite close to this house. That is the figure a house would be put on the market for. That is one reason why housing developers are not all queueing up to build lots of new houses, even on greenfield sites.

What effect will starter homes have? I asked the Minister three questions yesterday but she did not answer any of them. But I will no doubt get replies in due course. One of my questions was whether it would be possible for some purchasers of starter homes also to get the help-to-buy discount, which would then give them a 40% discount. This is just a factual question which I would like sorted out. But even if the figure is only 20%, a new house which is on the market for £150,000 would be sold for £120,000 as a starter home. In other words, it would seriously compete with, and undermine, the existing housing market. Therefore, good-quality terraced houses at the top of the range would be £110,000 or a bit more. Houses which have been built relatively recently would be at the same price, or not much different.

Brownfield development is simply not viable in this area—I will come to that on later amendments—and greenfield development is marginal and can take place only on the very best sites. The number of new completions each year in a borough of 90,000 people is in double figures. In fact, in one recent year it was in single figures. A couple of years ago the figure was under 100 and almost all the houses were properties which the local authority had built through its joint venture development company. The market is picking up a little bit but not very much. It will not surprise anybody to hear that the level of CIL which has been set locally is zero because, as soon as you introduce a CIL, everything becomes unviable, with all the other problems associated with that.

Making new housing much cheaper in a market such as this will probably result in more empty houses in the existing housing stock, particularly terraced housing, as people—not unreasonably—move up. A good-quality, fully modernised terraced house in a good location will cost £100,000, whereas a brand-new starter home—certainly if it has two bedrooms—will cost not very much more than £100,000. Therefore, serious unintended consequences will come from the best of good intentions.

I tag what I have been saying on this amendment on to the Henry VIII amendment that the Government will be moving. I think that the Government need to think very hard indeed about how this legislation should be amended to take account of different housing markets in different places, whether they are rural areas, areas with lots of holiday accommodation, or—in my case and the areas that I am talking about—areas where house prices are really very low compared with the norm in a great deal of England.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour)

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Hollis was absolutely right when she suggested that the only restriction is age. But government Amendments 44A and 44B in this group of course seek powers to disapply even that.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

It would be really helpful if the Minister could assure the House—we really do need this—that proposed draft regulations will be before this House before we get to Report. If not, we will have major problems in this and other areas. It is not too much to ask. The Bill started in the other place last autumn, so there has been abundant time for the Government to determine what their policy intent is behind these “anything goes” powers for the Secretary of State. We must know, otherwise some of us will seek the House’s authority to defer consideration until we have those regulations. We cannot do our job of scrutiny when so much of the information that we need is absent.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

May I ask one question? We were told on Monday, I think, that there were so many hundred thousand people listed as wanting starter homes. Is there any information available on where these people are located—which counties and local authorities—and could we have that information quite early, perhaps even today? It might help us in our debates.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, we have started today with another interesting debate on starter homes. I am conscious that this is the third day in Committee and we still have some substantial issues before us.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

Is the Minister aware that, in the other place, they took 17 Committee days to discuss this Bill?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I am not disputing that at all. I was going to give a bit of a recap of Tuesday if that is okay by your Lordships. Anyone who read Hansard for Tuesday will not be in any doubt that your Lordships’ House is passionate about social housing and the need to make sure that the most vulnerable in our society have safe and secure housing. The Government’s position is not as far removed from that as some noble Lords may believe. We, too, believe that social housing should continue to house those who need it most.

Some noble Lords suggested that the provisions in Chapter 1 mean that we no longer believe in anything other than home ownership, which is not the case. As I have said before, there is a gap in the market. An additional product is required to fill that gap and that is why we are legislating for starter homes. We are helping people to access homes that they can afford in a number of different ways and this Bill should not be seen in isolation. The Government have committed £4.1 billion in spending reviews to deliver 135,000 shared ownership homes and £1.6 billion to deliver 100,000 affordable homes for rent.

With help to buy, shared ownership, the affordable rental sector and social renting, market-priced housing and private rented sector housing, as well as the retirement housing that is coming forward, there is a whole range of tenures available and starter homes will rightly be a part of that mix. Just because this wider range of affordable housing is not mentioned in this part of the Bill, it does not mean that local authorities will not provide it. Local planning authorities know their market. We would also expect them to seek other forms of affordable housing, such as social rent, where it would be viable. Councils have the option to release more land for housing to ensure that they are delivering as much housing of all tenures as is needed.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

My Lords, in that case will local authorities be able to claim Section 106 land which has now been earmarked for starter homes and which in the past has funded more than 50% of social housing in this country? The Minister says that they can do it but she is denying them the powers, the authority and the revenue base by which to do it.

Lord Beecham (Labour)

Before the Minister replies to that, how does this aspiration match the Government’s imposition of cuts in rents for local authority social housing, which will restrict their capacity to invest?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, to go back to the first question from the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, the councils will provide through various mechanisms different types of tenure, as they always have done. We fully expect that this will be the case in the future and I have outlined some of the funding mechanisms.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

I am sorry, my Lords, but that is not good enough. In the past, local authorities and housing associations have relied on Section 106 but that is largely going to disappear unless some of the amendments that we will discuss later are taken into account. It is no use the Minister saying that she has no reason to think that this will not continue when it will not—unless she can tell us how local authorities will make good their loss in rents, their loss in capital grant support and their loss in Section 106 land.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, Section 106 can still be used for infrastructure but cannot be used where it would damage the viability of providing those houses on the site. Local authorities will continue to use Section 106 and a variety of other mechanisms to provide mixed tenures on their sites.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

My Lords, I have been chair of a modestly sized housing association across Norfolk, and virtually all our new building was under Section 106. Take 106 away and the building will stop—full stop.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, if it is viable developments can use Section 106, for example to provide infrastructure on those housing developments. The £1.6 billion that we have provided for affordable rented properties is purely grant-funded.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

But, my Lords, the infrastructure in rural villages is already largely in place. We are talking about modest pockets of 10 or a dozen houses here and there. Infrastructure is not the point; that land has come through Section 106 from other private development which is already happening. How are local authorities going to add to the social housing stock when they face huge pressures with no land and no resources?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, as I have said this will happen through a variety of mechanisms. I appreciate that we are in disagreement at this point but if noble Lords will indulge me, I would like to make some progress.

Lord Beecham (Labour)

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way but broadly speaking, it is right to say that in terms of Section 106, authorities have been accustomed to accepting some 15% of houses in development under that scheme. Can the Minister give any indication of what she thinks the future likely percentage will be under the regime which the Bill introduces? In percentage terms will it be around the same, less or more, and on what basis does she advance her opinion? I accept that she may not have an answer immediately across the Dispatch Box and if she does not, can she write to us about that?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I cannot say at the Dispatch Box what the percentage will be, because it will be out for consideration, but I can give my opinion. In my experience, it will not be too dissimilar from the affordable homes expectation that was previously in place. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked me another question in following the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, on the previous point and I have completely forgotten what he said. Perhaps he could repeat it—it is going to be a long day.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

My Lords, we need to know whether these are affordable homes for rent. Otherwise, what the Minister is doing is using starter homes to embrace the whole concept of affordable homes. That entirely ignores the need for affordable homes to rent. Following my noble friend’s question, can she say specifically whether the percentage of social housing for rent will continue?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, all I can say is that local authorities know their market, and they can use Section 106 for other types of housing on sites, whether for sale or for rent, in addition to starter homes where viability allows, as well as for infrastructure. I cannot answer more clearly than that at this time.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour)

The Minister is right to say that local authorities know their market. The core problem with this Bill and its provisions, which has not been taken account of, is that of the powers being taken to the centre of the Government.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

Those powers are a specific type of power for the Secretary of State, but that does not take away from any of the other powers that local authorities might wish to use, viability allowing, when agreeing Section 106 for development in terms of other affordable homes for sale or for rent.

If I may, I wish to make a bit more progress. Our analysis has shown that in regions outside London, we expect that, on average, up to 60% of eligible households currently renting privately would be able to secure a mortgage on a starter home. Within London, we expect that up to 47% of eligible households currently renting privately would be able to secure a mortgage on a starter home. For example, 59% of eligible households currently renting privately across London would be able to secure a mortgage on a starter home in Hammersmith and Fulham.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

Does the Minister know what the remortgage payments are on a mortgage of £450,000?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, I do, because I have a rather large mortgage myself. I think the noble Lord may be referring to the cap on a starter home, which is £450,000.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

Yes, but £450,000 is the price at which most developers are going to build houses in London.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, the first-time buyer price of a house in London is currently £356,000. I appreciate that that is not the average house price in London, but that is the average first-time buyer price in London.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

Does that include all properties?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

It includes all sorts of properties, and that is for first-time buyers. But the price cap is a cap; it is not an average. We can and we will argue statistics today, but the cap is not the average, and the average first-time buyer price of a home in London is £356,000.

Lord Beecham (Labour)

I thank the Minister. I referred to this when we discussed similar matters the other day. The suggestion—I was quoting Savills as my authority—is that new-build homes are going to be more expensive than houses on the market, so the £350,000 figure is likely to be an underestimate—if I recall rightly, by around 10%. We will be looking at nearer £400,000 for a new-build property, which makes it a different story.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I apologise to the noble Lord and to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, because the figure that I gave was the implied first-time buyer price of a new-build in London. I think we will all get a bit confused with prices and statistics today, so I hope the noble Lords will accept my apology.

I turn now to the amendments. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham, for Amendments 43 and 44, which suggest limiting starter homes to local people, and for Amendment 40, which would prevent starter homes being sold to buy-to-let investors.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for his amendments, which seek to restrict starter homes to those purchasing via a mortgage, and to require first-time buyers to occupy starter homes as their principal residence. Finally, the amendments in my name introduce some modest flexibility to the age 40 cap.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

I have just looked this up. The cost of a £450,000 mortgage on a new house in London, at 4%, is £28,000 per annum—out of after-tax income. How is it possible for her to say, as I think she did, that 40% of private owners in London can afford a mortgage like that? These figures cannot be right. With £28,000 after tax, we are talking about income of something like £45,000 a year before tax just to pay your mortgage. This is not affordable.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, first, if someone is paying 4% on a mortgage, they might not be getting the best deal on the market. Secondly, I just repeat my point that £450,000 is the cap on a starter home and £356,000 is the implied price of a new-build first-time buyer property. I do not think we are necessarily talking about the same thing.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour)

But the point is that the figures she referred to are for the whole of London. The price of a property in the Elephant and Castle, around where I grew up, is £450,000 or more. This may apply on the edge of London, but not anywhere near here.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, I recognise there are vast variations in house prices in London. We talked about Lewisham the day before yesterday, and we could talk about every borough in London today, but I am simply giving an average implied price. I accept that Westminster and Kensington and Chelsea are more expensive—I could not afford to live there—but there are places in London that are more affordable than others. This is simply an average price.

Amendment 37B would restrict who could buy a starter home to those purchasing with a mortgage only. We are allowing starter homes to be purchased only by qualifying first-time buyers under the age of 40, with limited exceptions. The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, asked whether this fits in with the Equality Act. I confirm that an equality impact assessment has been prepared for the starter homes provisions in the

Bill, and this will be kept under constant review in line with the duties under the Equality Act. In addition, a further assessment is being prepared to accompany the Government’s consultation proposals for starter home regulations.

We need to prioritise our assistance to the generation of people in their 20s and 30s who have been disproportionately affected by the increasing affordability pressures over the last 30 years. My noble friend Lord Young of Cookham made the very good point that this is a very popular product and significant interest is already being generated on these homes. He was correct that this is done on a first come, first served basis. He also made the point about it being a good way of increasing mobility in the social rented sector and for those currently on waiting lists. I totally agree with that point—it is. We will be ensuring that resale letting restrictions are included in our regulations. The aim is to provide a place to live in. We are consulting on these requirements for the regulations shortly, to seek wider views and to ensure that they operate fairly and effectively.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

Does that mean that the proposed draft regulations will be available to noble Lords before Report, so that we can see how the Minister ensures to target starter homes on those who most of us would accept need them most, given income and occupations that some may have which our society needs?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, I do not think that I can undertake to provide the regulations by Report, given that the consultation will be happening shortly. As I have done with regulations on many occasions, I will elect to give noble Lords as much detail as I can possibly can, but I cannot give an undertaking that they will be ready by Report.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

I am sorry; it may be a matter of when Report happens. The Minister should recognise that noble Lords all around the Chamber are floundering, because we do not know enough. We are not challenging the Minister’s good intent; I am sure that she is telling us everything she knows at the moment and that she does not wish to mislead the Committee, nor to pre-empt decisions that her department may go on to make. Some of us have been there and know the situation that she is in. However, the response to that should be to delay Report until we have those regulations, because otherwise most of this debate will continue on Report with questions such as, “What does this mean?” or “What does that mean?” and the Minister will say, “We have to await the regulations”. Then we will have an argument about whether those regulations will be affirmative or negative, and whether we can go back and amend legislation, given that we will then see the intent of the Government’s proposals, which the Minister was not able to share with us when we were discussing the Bill itself. She recognises this dilemma, as does the whole House—it is not unique to this Bill. Easter Recess is coming up. Either she must delay Report stage or she must get those regulations to us. For the sake of good scrutiny, we cannot afford to have the same sort of debate as we had on the previous day in Committee on Tuesday—and, so far, today.

Baroness Blackstone (Labour)

My Lords, let me pick up the point my noble friend has just made. Given that there is a consultation, I completely understand what the Minister is saying. However, it is obviously sensible to delay Report so that this House can have a proper opportunity to peruse the regulations in detail.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

My Lords, let me add that the danger is that the Bill will be treated as a skeleton Bill under the Cunningham report. I always oppose voting on fatals, but we may find ourselves having to vote on fatal Motions because it is the only way we will be able to deal with amendments that we should have been able to deal with in primary legislation.

During my modest contribution, I mentioned a number of abuses. Will the Minister assure us that each of those that I quoted will be considered and dealt with by officials, and that if they believe my comments were accurate, they will be dealt with in the regulatory arrangements?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I hope to answer the noble Lord’s points as fully as I can. I know that if I do not, he will intervene again.

Lord Greaves (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, perhaps it is my fault that I have not noticed yet, but while we are on the question of the 40-year age limit, will the Minister tell me whether the cut-off will apply to a person trying to buy a house at the time they make an offer or the time they complete?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, it will be at the time they complete. That is when they become the owner of the house.

Lord Greaves (Liberal Democrat)

That is an interesting answer and I am grateful for it. May I suggest that we find a way of discussing this and thinking about it further, because if we think about the practicalities of buying houses, the answer that has just been given has all kinds of implications?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I appreciate that. I keep coming back to the point that this is to address a specific demographic in the market that has been disenfranchised from home ownership.

To return to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, I understand the frustration of the Committee. I understand particularly that when the House is frustrated by not receiving regulations, that then takes time that we should be taking to discuss the Bill. However, I also see the need for the consultation to be meaningful. I would not want to delay Report but I am happy to meet noble Lords once the consultation has been published, which they might find helpful.

Baroness Blackstone (Labour)

When is that date going to be? Of course consultations should be meaningful; they are often not, but I hope that this one is. Still, it would be useful to know the timetable that the Government have in mind.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I expect that it will be in the next few weeks. I will keep noble Lords posted. As I say, I am happy to meet Lords once the consultation has been published.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

My Lords, does that mean that the consultation period will be through by the end of March, the end of April or what?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I hope the noble Baroness will forgive me if I cannot give her an exact date. What I have elected to do, once the consultation has been published, is to meet noble Lords to discuss it.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

My Lords, if that means we will not get the results of the Government’s response to the consultation until after Report, I suggest that through the usual channels they consider delaying Third Reading, or at least the use of Third Reading to take Report-style questions that we would not have been able to ask on Report because of the Government’s handling of their own timetable.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I can only reiterate my commitment to sharing the consultation once it has been published and to ensuring that as soon as regulations can be brought forward, they will be.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour)

Can the Minister not go a bit further than that? Can she not just agree here today to go through the usual channels to explore the point that my noble friend has made about the possibility of having further process at Third Reading?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, matters may have been resolved by Third Reading, but I will speak to officials to see what can be done to expedite the detail of the regulations as soon as possible. I can do no more than that today.

Lord Beecham (Labour)

My Lords, I would like to revert from this dreadful series of process issues and assert that the Committee has every sympathy with the Minister; it is no fault of hers that we are in this dreadful situation. To go back to the last substantive thing that she said, which was about making sure that the houses are not let after being bought, what mechanism will there be for monitoring the situation? Unless it is effectively monitored it becomes a meaningless provision, and I am not sure how it might be monitored.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, there will be a power to stop letting because this is a very important aspect. For the intention of what is being provided through starter homes to be flouted in that way would undermine the policy altogether.

Lord Beecham (Labour)

That is obviously right. The question is how it is going to be done. Will someone be going around and checking letting boards or with estate agents to see whether properties bought under right to buy are to be let? Or is it going to be an obligation, although how it would be enforced is another matter, for an owner of a right-to-buy property to notify someone about letting? Again, how could that be enforced? There are real practical difficulties here to which I find it hard to come up with an answer. I am not expecting the Minister to come up with an answer just like that, but I hope that someone in the department is giving some thought to how they can make a reality of the aspiration, which the Government and the Minister no doubt have, that the principle of not letting these properties is actually enforceable.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

The noble Lord gets to the heart of some of the issues on which we shall be consulting and which we shall try to ensure do not happen—for example, abuse of the facility. The regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure, so there will be time to debate them, although I am not losing sight of noble Lords’ frustration.

I have completely lost my place. The English housing survey, which was published in February, found that 83% of first-time buyers funded their first property with savings; 27% had help from family or friends, while 10% used inheritance. Many first-time buyers used a combination of sources and 96% required a mortgage to buy. I am not convinced that a mortgage requirement will prevent the gaming that noble Lords suggest, although I can see exactly where they are coming from. People can play all sorts of games with mortgages. They can get a mortgage and, six months later, pay it back. I am keen to prevent local gaming, but I do not know that this would actually prevent it. We will keep implementation under review and issue further regulations if necessary.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, talked about resale in the first five years. This is a very important point. For example, what would happen to any money from the 20% discount? If a property were resold in the first five years, it would be sold at a 20% discount during that period, so it would remain a starter-home type of product.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

In a free market, how do you calculate the 20% discount within the first five years? Take year three. Who would decide the market price, and the subsidised—discounted—price? Would it be the estate agent; would there be some sort of independent valuer; or would it be the department? Who is going to do it? At that point, we would be interfering and trying to prejudge market values. I do not think that it will be possible.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

The noble Lord is right. Market values can go down and they can go up. I would expect that an independent valuation of the property would be made and the 20% discount applied to the next person buying that starter home. It is true that the market might go down, in which case the price to any subsequent starter home purchaser would also go down.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

I cannot see how you can calculate it. I am the purchaser. There is a house—a discounted property. How do I work out what I should pay? I might be competing with a queue of six people all of whom want to buy the house. Who is going to be the winner? In these conditions, there will be competition and one would have thought that the competition will take it above the discounted price. Unless there is some sort of preferential system built in, I cannot see how it can possibly work. We need a lot of information on this before we get to Report.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

If the noble Lord is happy, we can discuss this further. There are all sorts of complexities in it and I am very happy to meet with him. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours and I are likely to be meeting a lot over the next few weeks to discuss various things. But that would be the mechanism: money would not go anywhere but the property would come back on to the market as a starter home.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, also talked about a charge on a starter home, which is another good point. We will consider this issue further and will engage with lenders, developers and local authorities on the detailed implementation of starter homes, which will include such issues. The noble Lord also talked about the length of leases allowable on starter homes, which, again, is another good point. The Bill specifies that a starter home may be held as a freehold or a leasehold interest. The regulations will not specify the length of any lease but in practice they will be of a market-standard length so that it would be possible to obtain mortgage finance—that is, it would be very difficult to obtain mortgage finance on, for example, a leasehold property of 10 years—even if the purchaser does not intend to obtain a mortgage.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

Why not simply say, “No 99-year or 125-year leases?”. Why not just say that they should all be 999-year leases?

Lord Beecham (Labour)

Or freehold.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

A 999-year lease is a virtual freehold, is it not? Why not have those extra-long leases? Why have short leases, which force up the enfranchisement costs when people buy their leases if the ground rents are high as well?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I get the noble Lord’s point entirely. We expect that if these properties were leasehold, the leases would be of market-standard length.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

But market-standard length at the moment can be anything from 99 to 999 years. I am just saying, why not go for the longer lease?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I entirely take the noble Lord’s point. As I say, that is our expectation, but we will continually monitor this. It is a new product and we will monitor it as time goes on.

I think I have answered the questions—or some of them—before I have introduced the amendments. Amendment 41B would not allow buy-to-let investors to buy a starter home but would require first-time buyers to occupy a starter home as their principal residence. I assure noble Lords that it is not our intention to allow those people who buy a starter home to become buy-to-let landlords, and nor do we want the properties to be second homes.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, brought up the point about what happens if someone inherits a house. If that happens and they sell it on, clearly they do not own that house, but once they occupy that house they own it and therefore they would not be a starter-home purchaser. I do not know what would happen if someone purchased a starter home and then one year into that purchase inherited a house. I can get back to the noble Lord on that.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

What worries me is where someone inherits a house in the area where the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, lives, at £40,000, and then is disadvantaged because under the provisions in the Finance Act 2003, if they have acquired it—not purchased it but acquired it; in other words, inherited it—that would then deny them the right to have a starter home. That should be sorted out.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

It would, but it would give them a very good deposit on a home if they were to then sell that property, and in the north-west, the implied first-time buyer price of a new build is £144,000. I am just giving an example which relates to the one the noble Lord gave, but in that case the properties would be well within the affordability range for a new-build first home.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

It is defined in the 2003 Act. If you have acquired a house by way of inheritance, under this legislation that is your first home and therefore you cannot buy a starter home. That is what I was driving at.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, if you have acquired a home and then you live in it, you are the owner of that home. You own it.

Lord Greaves (Liberal Democrat)

I am not qualified to take part in these legal technicalities but this is clearly something that needs sorting out. If the Government are going to stop people buying a starter home and letting it during the five-year period, will they also be prevented from keeping it empty? For example, if I bought a starter home worth £250,000, having received a discount of £50,000, and with two years to go I unavoidably had to move somewhere else and could not live in that house, it would be altogether financially more beneficial to me to simply leave it empty for two years and pay the council tax on it than to sell it and lose the £50,000. What will the position be in that situation?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

Theoretically a person could, within the five-year period, have to move somewhere else and therefore the house could be left empty for two years. The question is whether they sell that property within the five years. The person that the noble Lord is talking about would not sell the property; he would simply go elsewhere for work or for whatever purpose.

Lord Greaves (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, there are all sorts of theoretical circumstances that we can put ourselves in but people may well move permanently—they may move to another part of the world or to another part of England where there are some jobs, unlike in parts of the north of England. Under those circumstances, they would not come back to the house and it would clearly be in their interests to leave it empty for two years. Therefore, the number of empty properties in that area would increase for purely bureaucratic reasons. All you have to do is leave the house empty for a couple of years, then sell it and make a profit of perhaps £45,000. That does not seem sensible. If the Government have not thought out the problem, they ought to do so and come back and tell us whether there is a solution to it.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, the matter here is resale. I will certainly write to the noble Lord to clarify the issue if that is okay.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

On that last point, we want to help people to buy a starter home if they have a good chance of affording it. On the one hand, we want to stop abuse but, on the other hand, we do not want to stop appropriate geographical mobility. The core of the problem is that after five years the 20% discount ends. I hope that the Minister will understand the overlap between a lot of these discussions and the subsequent amendments relating to trying to keep that 20% discount in perpetuity, because at that point the possibility of abuse reduces very sharply.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, I am sure that we will go on to talk about “in perpetuity” today. The Government are quite clear that not making these homes discounted in perpetuity allows mobility up the housing ladder and frees up property for other people to live in. Also, it does not restrict the person who has bought the starter home in making progress up the property ladder.

Lord Beecham (Labour)

I want to revert for a moment to the conundrum posed by my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours, to which the noble Baroness has endeavoured to reply—with some difficulty, which I quite understand. His question is predicated upon a single person inheriting a house. However, if two or three siblings inherited a share in that house, on the face of it that would also invoke the problem he raised. Again, I do not ask for an answer now but this is yet another area that needs to be explored by those advising the Minister. On the face of it, one out of the three, four or however many siblings might have a share in this notional property would be disqualified.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I think that the noble Lord is right. If the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, will indulge me, I will write to him on this further. It starts to raise questions, particularly when there are two or three—

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

All I am saying is that where the Bill states:

“’First-time buyer’ has the meaning given by section 57AA(2) of the Finance Act 2003”,

that should be amended because it is an insufficient definition.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

Perhaps I may take that point away because, like other noble Lords, I am no legal expert. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, asked about the Help to Buy scheme being used to purchase a starter home. We are certainly exploring whether it can be used but as yet no decisions have been made.

Lord Greaves (Liberal Democrat)

Just to wrap up this point if we can, when might decisions be made? The point is that if there is a 20% discount on a starter home and a potential 20% discount in certain circumstances through the Help to Buy scheme, somebody could get a 40% discount out of public funds on the house they buy. That seems rather a lot, and I would like an answer to that question before we finish with this Bill.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, Help to Buy is a government loan guarantee scheme as opposed to a discount, but I shall be happy to discuss that further and, as I said, to bring forward in due course government thinking on Help to Buy being used for a starter home.

Putting the sales and letting restrictions in regulations will give us flexibility to amend the restrictions, should this be required in the future. It will also give the opportunity to consult with key stakeholders to ensure the regulations operate fairly and effectively, which is what we all want. Restrictions in any legislation will not prevent gaming at the local level, much as we would want it to, but I reassure noble Lords that we will be working with builders, lenders and local government to secure the best possible mechanism to ensure that starter homes are for owner-occupiers only. We are working to secure a practical mechanism that can be agreed with all parties to ensure that starter homes are real homes for those who will enjoy living in them.

The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, asked a question about second-home owners. I cannot remember what it was but I have something written down in my notes. Would she mind repeating the question?

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Labour)

It was how to ensure that, once the starter homes are sold on, having been occupied for two or however many years, it is not possible to sell them on to second-home owners or to people who are going to rent them out to other people. It was about second homes and holiday homes.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, unfortunately you cannot really stop that, much as we would like to see a perfect housing system in which there is no abuse. Noble Lords have given many examples of when, once the five or however many years are up, in subsequent years some of these houses could be used as second homes. I wish it were not the case but, unfortunately, it is. The point is that they will go back into the market as a supply of houses for people to live in in the future.

Lord Greaves (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, I apologise, but these are new houses and therefore subject to new planning permission. Could it not be attached to the planning permission that they should not be used as second homes?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, I think the idea is that we want to make the system as simple as possible, but I completely accept the fact that we do not want to leave it open to abuse. There are examples of that under right to buy, where properties might have been used as second homes. Of course, the second-home stamp duty should hopefully deter some people—noble Lords included—due to the quite substantial price now involved in buying a second home.

Baroness Young of Old Scone (Labour)

Could I just challenge something that the Minister said? The nub of this is a point that we are going to come on to debate later: the in perpetuity issue. A lot of these potential misuses, both at point of purchase and at point of sale subsequently, could be resolved very simply if the Government were to relent and see these starter homes as being starter homes in perpetuity with a permanent discount. I was very unconvinced by the Minister’s argument that, otherwise, people in these starter homes would be unable to get on to the next rung of the ladder in the housing market. Do we really want to be persuading people to go up the housing market ladder in an inflated way? That is partly the problem with the housing stock at the moment: prices are inflated, and the steps between a small property and the next rung up the ladder are huge, particularly in areas of high housing cost such as London. What is the harm of them staying in the smaller property, if they have to, until such time as they can either achieve their aim with additional savings to buy into the next higher grade or get to the point at which they have a sufficient income level to be able do it? It seems to me that the sorts of abuses that the Minister is struggling with, the system will struggle with in the future because of the inability to control what happens after the first sale.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I take the noble Baroness’s point, but the Government’s wish is that people who want to move—and there are many reasons why people would want to move in the future—will be able to do so without being restricted by the same problems that they faced when buying before the starter home discount came in. Also, that mobility introduces a supply into the market. Noble Lords from all round the House have talked about the lack of supply and the lack of supply at a certain level. So it has a dual purpose, in allowing other people to come on to the market but also introducing supply when those people choose to move on.

I now move to non-government Amendments 43 and 44. Over the last 20 years, we have heard that the proportion of those under the age of 40 who are homeowners in England has declined by over a third, from 61% to 38%. There has been a 26 percentage point increase in the proportion of that age group who rent homes in the private sector, from 18% to 44%. Therefore, as one has declined, so the other has gone up. This is a problem faced by an entire generation. It would be wrong to say that some people cannot benefit from starter homes and buy a home in the location that works for them simply because they are currently living or working elsewhere. They could, for example, currently be priced out of the neighbourhood of their choice, or they could be relocating for work or other personal reasons. The effect of a local connections test on starter homes would be to restrict access for some people for no good reason. A starter home purchaser must commit to living in the property for five years and there will not be the opportunity to rent out the property, as we have already discussed. This must be a better test of commitment to an area.

It is also important that there is consistency, in order that our reforms and the commitment to deliver 200,000 starter homes are widely understood. This is particularly important for lenders and developers, and their support and engagement are critical to achieve delivery. Putting differential requirements in place as a matter of course, such as a local connection test, would introduce complexity that we do not want in getting housing delivery on the ground. However, my noble friend Lord Young brought up the point that a local connection may be warranted, and I recognise that. It has long been a common feature of rural exceptions sites, where opportunities for new housing supply are very limited. As part of our consultation on national planning policy, we sought views on whether local planning authorities should have the flexibility to introduce a local connection test for starter homes on rural exception sites. This would reflect the particular needs of some rural areas, where local connections are important and access to the housing market for working people can be extremely difficult. It would also be consistent with existing policy on rural exception sites. We are currently considering consultation responses on this point.

Lord Beecham (Labour)

My Lords, I wonder whether it might not be sensible also to look at possible urban exception sites. Take the case of inner London—there may be other places as well—where there are very high levels of demand and very high prices, and even these homes will not exactly be cheap. Would it not be sensible to allow the local planning authorities in those areas to have the discretion to require a local connection, having regard to the pressures they are already experiencing with their existing population? I certainly support the rural exception point, and presumably it may be possible to have a similar mechanism for urban areas. Perhaps in conjunction with discussions with the LGA or combined authorities, the Government could reach an agreement about which areas should have that. Some element of discretion ought surely to be provided for in urban areas. The Minister represented part of Greater Manchester where, I suspect, there will be areas with precisely the same problem.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

I support my noble friend in what he says. This morning, I was sent briefing data from the city of Cambridge. The average house price in Cambridge city, based on February 2016 data, is £483,625—in other words, £484,000. The lowest quartile price is £315,000, and there has been a 17% increase in the last 12 months. South of Cambridgeshire—so people would have to travel in, but none the less—the average price is £385,700. In the east of England, it is £303,000. These figures confirm the point that my noble friend was making: we are going to need exemptions for urban sites of high demand just as we will in rural areas. Cambridge city and university cities across the country face this sort of price explosion.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, as I said, we are keen not to introduce complexity generally. The reason I homed in on the rural exception sites was for those very reasons: lack of supply generally and people who want to work locally to whom that test could be applied.

I move on to government Amendments 42A, 44A, 44B and 45B. These amendments would allow for some modest flexibility on the under-40 age cap. Amendments 44A and 44B allow the Secretary of State by affirmative regulations to exempt the under- 40 age cap for specified categories of people. It would allow the Secretary of State to specify circumstances where a property may still be classified as a starter home if it is purchased by joint purchasers, not all of whom are under 40. Both exemptions would allow limited flexibility in the age threshold, for example, where joint first-time buyers wished to buy a starter home and one was over the age of 40. We consider that a reasonable amendment.

Amendment 45A would require the Secretary of State to consult local authorities, the Mayor of London and any other person the Secretary of State thinks appropriate, such as professional bodies, before amending the price cap for starter homes. A requirement to consult before amending the price caps was one of the amendments tabled by the Opposition in the other place.

I have made it clear that price caps are not an expectation of the going price for starter homes, and I am sure that I will reiterate that point again. The price cap framework has been set nationally to ensure that there is a clear and consistent product that first-time buyers, lenders and developers all understand. However, I expect that there will be regional differences, as we have discussed. We want the policy to work effectively across the country. That is why we have taken powers to amend the price cap through affirmative regulations, which will ensure that the provisions remain up to date. The Secretary of State can adjust the limit to reflect movements in the property market generally. Following further consideration, we have decided to amend the Bill so that it is a requirement for the Secretary of State to consult local authorities, the Mayor of London and any other person that the Secretary of State thinks appropriate, such as professional bodies, if we decide to change the price caps in future.

I hope that that provides reassurances that local authorities will be able to make representations before any change to price caps are made through regulations, and we will consider any responses carefully. Although I thank noble Lords for tabling Amendment 45, the government amendment makes it unnecessary.

Amendment 45B is linked to Amendment 45A and allows regulations under the clause to amend the starter homes chapter of the Bill. For example, if the Secretary of State were to use that power to create a list of different categories of people to whom the age requirement does not apply—for example, a specific professional group—the list could be inserted into Chapter 1 as a new section. This will add further flexibility, should it be required.

Amendment 42A is technical, amending the Secretary of State’s power in Clause 2(3)(c) to make regulations which specify the characteristics that an individual must possess to be considered a qualifying first-time buyer for the purposes of Clause 2. We consider that the term “criteria” more accurately reflects the imposition of things such as a minimum age requirement that an individual must meet to be a qualifying first-time buyer.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

My Lords, I understand why the Minister has been unable to pick up all the questions that have been thrown at her, but one question I asked was: have the Government considered an income cap as well as an age cap? If they have rejected that idea, why?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, we have not considered an income cap; we have considered the age demographic that has been priced out of the housing market. Therefore, we wanted the whole age group to be able to access starter homes.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

If there is the demand that the noble Baroness thinks that there will be, how will she reconcile that with the fact that many people on a higher income who could afford to go into the open market—those in jobs with a professional qualification, such as accountancy, law, medicine, teaching and so on—will not start earning their salaries until their late 20s, at which point they will be thinking to buy? They could go into the open market but now—sensibly—will choose to go into a starter home because there will be no limitation on them. Two such people may well have an income of £70,000 or £80,000 outside London and could well afford to go into the open market but, if they acquire a starter home, will be displacing someone else who is possibly in greater need. Why have the Government not explored that? There may well be good arguments on the other side, but it is odd to have an age restriction but not an income restriction; frankly, it is not age that stops people going into the open market, it is income.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, if you look at the demographic, you see that it is this age group that is restricted. I take the noble Baroness’s point about accountants and doctors, but it takes quite a long time to earn a decent salary in either of those professions—I am married to someone in one of them. It is the age group that has been so badly restricted, and that is why the age group was selected.

Baroness Blackstone (Labour)

My Lords, I am very sorry to interrupt the Minister yet again, but on various occasions during this debate she has talked about abuse. The biggest abuse of all, which will be a consequence of the Bill, is very highly paid young people in their thirties benefiting from a very large discount—in London, it could be £80,000 or £90,000. Surely the Government should be concerned about that. It will bring the legislation for starter homes into disrepute, and rightly so. I reiterate the concern around the House about this issue and ask the Minister to reconsider whether there should not be a government amendment on this issue.

Baroness Grender (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, the Minister has ruled out a mortgage but, in this context, perhaps the Government could right here, right now, today rule out cash buyers. That gives us something more specific to hold on to here. Or can the Minister envisage a cash buyer in this scenario who would not have an unnecessary advantage?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, I hope that I have demonstrated—I do not think anyone is disputing it—that if this market was so open to people of this age, they would be buying. The fact is that, over the past 20 years, they have not been buying; purchasing has hugely declined. Yes, we may be talking about a few people in London on a high salary, but the statistics show us that that is not the case. We should not be restricting it geographically or by income, because it is a problem facing an entire generation. That is why we do not want to restrict them from being able to buy, should they wish to.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

The Minister is happy later in the Bill to have an income restriction for council tenants but not, apparently, on the donation of a very large subsidy to people in the purchase market.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, I do not think it is correct to say that we want an income restriction for council tenants. I do not think that that is a statement of fact.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

Yes it is, my Lords, because under “pay to stay”, two tenants—a couple—each earning £15,000 a year, possibly with three or four children, will not even be eligible for housing benefit, but will have to pay market rents to stay.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

The noble Baroness made the point that they would not be able to access these properties; they will.

Lord Greaves (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, I am sorry to keep saying this, but I shall keep saying it until the Government start to engage in the discussion. There are parts of the country where the housing market is stagnant, where there are real housing problems, but they are not the inability of a particular demographic—in this case, people under 40—to access the market. As I demonstrated earlier, where a lot of good-quality properties are already available for the same price as new two and three-bedroom semis would sell for, if they were starter homes and attracted the 20% discount, the introduction of starter homes is likely to have a severely disruptive effect on the whole housing market. There may be answers to this, but for the Minister to suggest that the demographic of under-40s is excluded in the same way in all parts of the country is simply not true. Moreover, the solution being put forward is, as I say, likely to have a severely disruptive effect on the whole housing market and potentially do more harm than good.

This is not particularly my view; it is one that has been put to me strongly by our local council officials who are involved in all this. They are the ones dealing with empty properties and trying to get new build going right across the field: housing officers, planning officers and senior council officers. They say that this proposal as it stands will do more harm than good, possibly far more harm than good, and actually will not seriously improve the prospects of the under-40s to get their own homes.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

Perhaps I may ask the Minister an Andrew Neil-type question, one that is very simple: why should a cash buyer benefit from a Section 106 subsidy?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, I shall take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, first. He has talked today, as he did the other day, about empty homes in Pendle—I am assuming he means Pendle or Colne or Brierfield—

Lord Greaves (Liberal Democrat)

I am sorry; I do refer to the place I know best, but this is not about a single place in England. We have the same sort of housing market across a range of areas, many of which are in the north of England, but there are some in the Midlands, the south-west and others in amazing places where I did not really know that this problem existed. It is generally those places where the housing market is stagnant, and there are quite a lot of them about.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, I shall reiterate the point I made the other day. The noble Lord is absolutely right to say that the housing market is stagnant in some parts of the north-west of England and employment is not like it is in the rest of the country. I think that the interventions that the Government have made in, for example, transport and infrastructure will put some of those areas back on their feet again, playing their economic part in the country.

Coming back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, about cash buyers, I do not know a single person aged under 40 who is a cash buyer, although of course there will be some. But our overriding principle here is that we do not want to disenfranchise people who work hard from the housing market.

Baroness Grender (Liberal Democrat)

My noble friend Lord Shipley has tabled this amendment on mortgages for precisely that kind of reason. No, of course there are not many people aged under 40 who are cash buyers, but if someone subsidises them to become cash buyers in order to acquire a property, that is the loophole we are concerned about here.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I think I have explained that having a mortgage will not stop gaming. There are always going to be abuses of the system, but we are trying to address an age group which has been disenfranchised from the purchasing market. I hope that what I have said gives to some extent reassurance to the noble Lord and that he will feel content to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour)

Can I push the noble Baroness a little further on this? I do not think it is good enough to say that there are always going to be abuses; we need a little more than that. There will be scams and shams, so we have to make sure that we will be able to identify them and sort them out.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I do not disagree—

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

Perhaps I may add to the point made by my noble friend. Many of the abuses will indeed be made if not by the mortgage principle then by continuing the discount in perpetuity. Can the Minister tell us why she thinks, if the discount in perpetuity were to apply, that would disadvantage first-time buyers in the future: those who bought the first time round, the second time round or the third time round? The only people it would disadvantage are those who seek to pocket a profit.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, I was trying to articulate my point about housing mobility. People buying starter homes who want to move on to the next rung of the ladder would be disenfranchised at a further point down their aspirational route.

Lord Beecham (Labour)

My Lords, if you have served your five-year term, as it were, and you make your £100,000 or so profit, you will have more money to spend on the second house. Surely the effect of that will be to push up house prices.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, the effect of introducing 1 million more new homes into the housing market by 2021 will be to increase supply, which should, first, deal with some of the problems of demand and, secondly, start to moderate house prices in a way that has not been the case over the past few decades.

Lord Greaves (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, I realise that I am ploughing a different furrow from other noble Lords in these interventions, but I have to say with all due deference to the Minister that my concerns about our local housing market and that of many other areas are not answered by her saying that the Government are going to introduce better infrastructure and invest at that sort of level. If that happens it will be extremely welcome. There is not much sign of it in east Lancashire at the moment, but even if there were, investing in infrastructure takes time. There is no doubt that it takes 10 to 15 years and has a long-term payback. As I understand it, we are talking about the housing market over the next few years. Building new roads, reinstating railways and doing all the other things that people are talking about under the heading of the northern powerhouse will not have any significant effect on our housing market and that of many other parts of the north of England in the next five years. Meanwhile, we have to deal with the problems that result from a stagnant, fragile, flat housing market next year, the year after and so on.

I am not trying to be awkward about this. If starter homes are a wonderful thing, I am all for them. But what I am saying is that in these parts of the country the introduction of starter homes risks having a disruptive effect on the existing housing market. While starter homes might be built if anyone can be found to build them, which is a question in itself, the result may well be that the rest of the housing market in the area becomes even more depressed than it is at the moment. That will mean more empty properties and a general reluctance on the part of developers to build, whether for social rent, private rent or owner-occupation. If the return from building houses either through selling them or from rents is less than all the costs put together of building them, they are not going to be built. Because of this bonus—this subsidy—we might get some starter homes, but that will put a severe damper on the rest of the housing market.

All I am asking is for the Government to discuss this with people on the ground in areas like those I have mentioned. We should set up a mechanism for doing this and see how it works, and then perhaps bring forward different rules, exceptions or whatever it might be—or just reach an understanding between us—to see how things can be improved. There is no point in having a starter homes policy or anything else in areas where it is actually going to make things worse.

Lord Skelmersdale (Conservative)

My Lords, before my noble friend answers, this has gone beyond a joke. My noble friend has given as many answers as she possibly can and, as a result, has been battered by yet further questions exemplifying the miscellaneous points which have been made. My noble friend has offered meetings with any and all noble Lords who want to pursue their points quietly so that they can pursue them again, if necessary, on Report. Surely, this is enough.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

No, my Lords; the problem with the noble Lord’s comment—I do not know whether he was here when we were discussing this earlier—is that we are dealing with what is essentially a skeleton Bill. We do not know how this scheme is going to work in any sort of detail. We have spent some time today and some time on Tuesday trying to tease out the detail. We do not blame the Minister; we entirely sympathise with her in the situation she is in, but she is trying to answer questions to which she cannot know the answer because, deeply foolishly, the Government have started a consultation exercise on all these questions so late that the results of the Government’s thinking, as affected by that consultation exercise, cannot be fed into today’s discussions in Committee.

The fault is with the Government’s timetabling. It is not the Minister’s fault—she is doing her best and we have every sympathy with her; none the less, the Government have put her in this position, trying to answer questions she cannot answer, because they have not banked their consultation exercise in appropriate time, but they expect this House to go ahead with scrutiny of major policy developments without the detail that should inform it.

Viscount Younger of Leckie (Conservative)

Following on from my noble friend Lord Young’s remarks, the Minister has been on her feet for nearly an hour and a half and I think that the Committee might allow the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, to respond.

Lord Shipley (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, I had not anticipated, when I moved my probing Amendment 37B, that we would be discussing this group some two hours later. However, I think the debate has been very valuable because it has revealed the gaping void in the Government’s thinking. I hope that the Minister will understand that a huge number of questions have been posed. Like, I suspect, many other noble Lords, I have been astonished that the answers are not being provided. After all, this Bill was passed in the other place. It has arrived here; we have had Second Reading, at which the need to publish at least draft regulations was made clear; we are now on day three of seven in Committee and progress is very slow. I think Ministers ought to explain to your Lordship’s House why we are in a position where consultation is taking place so very late that the answers to that consultation are not in our possession as we debate the later stages of the Bill.

I was very disappointed by the response of the Minister as to when regulations are going to be published. I said previously that we would happily receive draft regulations, as opposed to the finished version, but, of course, we now understand why Amendment 45B has appeared on the Marshalled List. I remind noble Lords that it simply says:

“Regulations under this section may amend this Chapter.”

In other words, the Bill is going to be amended by secondary legislation. This is simply an unacceptable position for your Lordships’ House to be put into. Many questions have been raised and I do not think that the Minister has actually answered many at all. I am grateful for offers of meetings and letters, which, I guess, will be copied, but there has been a very large number of questions to which there have not been answers. It is now incumbent upon the Minister and the department to provide a question-and-answer sheet with a set of clear answers to every question posed by noble Lords on this group.

For example, we have a problem with numbers. The Minister cited that 65% of people outside London who are currently renting privately and 40% of people in London who are currently renting privately will be able to take on a starter home. As we know from other agencies, such as Shelter, those figures are disputed. On Tuesday, I think, the Minister agreed that would have a detailed response to that so we can actually understand the facts with which we are trying to deal.

I was really concerned by the Minister’s remark, and I think I quote her rightly, that there is always going to be abuse of the system. That really is an unacceptable thing for noble Lords to confront. There should not be abuse of the system. There are ways in the planning system—and in the next group, which deals with “in perpetuity”—for this problem to be solved. So I hope that the Minister, in our proceedings after the lunch break, will work with the feeling across all sides of the Committee that we have to do something to make this a much better Bill; for, as it stands, it surely cannot proceed as it has been written. So, while

I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 37B, I hope that the Minister has understood the mood of the Committee in demanding clear answers to questions which have also been very clear.

Amendment 37B withdrawn.

House resumed. Committee to begin again not before 2.46 pm.

Committee (3rd Day) (Continued)

Lord Beecham (Labour)

My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendments 39, 39A and 40 in this group.

“There is no specific shortage of social housing, or private rented accommodation, or homes for first-time buyers, but an overall shortage of inexpensive housing across all tenures. Government solutions … are all a step in the wrong direction … Boosting homeownership should not be a policy aim in its own right. The government’s aim should be to improve affordability in general”.

These are not my words. They are contained in a briefing which I have just downloaded from my computer from that unregenerate Marxist body, the Institute of Economic Affairs—which tells us something about the peculiarity of the Government’s position.

Amendment 38 addresses the critical issue of affordability. In an earlier debate, I declared that affordability is an elastic concept, and we debated at some length the implications of that condition on Tuesday. Rather than beginning with a figure reflecting current house price averages—unaffordable to a large proportion of the population and varying widely not just between London and the rest of the country but within London and, as we have heard already in some areas, within other parts of the country—the approach comes to the issue from the other end. The criterion for affordability should be the income levels of the potential beneficiaries of the scheme. I am afraid I will cite figures again from my own authority: in Newcastle, the average two-bed property is marketed for £135,000 and the average three-bed for £160,000—those are existing stock. The discounted prices under the starter homes scheme would therefore be £108,000 and £128,000. As we have heard in relation to other figures which have been quoted, new-build properties would presumably cost more than current average prices. In any event, either would be out of reach for the majority of applicants on the city’s housing register and for a sizeable proportion of other people seeking to purchase a property. In the existing areas of what we call lower-quartile properties—flats or terraced houses—the average asking price is around £78,000, or £92,500 for slightly bigger homes.

The scheme we are debating today has little to offer in places such as Newcastle. By contrast, in areas of higher value in the city and elsewhere, its potential would be limited to those with higher incomes, who will in addition benefit of course from the ability to cash in eventually not only on the 20% discount but, as my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours pointed out in some detail this morning, on any rise in house prices. At the top end, there is clearly the potential for very large windfall gains to arise from the scheme, amounting to well in excess, in some areas, of £100,000—ironically, enough to allow the lucky first-time buyer in London to invest in a buy-to-let property in Newcastle of the kind I have described.

It cannot be fair to facilitate, after only five years, such significant untaxed gains for buyers whose incomes are likely to be substantially higher than those of people buying cheaper properties.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

Once again I express the need for us to see, at a very early stage today, this document that sets out the Government’s estimate of regional demand, based on the number of people who have applied. We need to see those figures and where they are coming from. If they are available in the Chamber now, why can they not be circulated during this debate?

Lord Beecham (Labour)

I cannot answer that question, of course. I am not sure the Minister will be able to either, but she will have a little more time—probably quite a lot of time—to perhaps get some information from the Box.

My Amendment 38 indicates that the starter home should be sold at a price not higher than that which would be affordable to a household on the local median income rather than creating an artificial discount irrespective of the means of the buyers. That seems a more sensible approach. Amendment 39 looks at the position in a slightly different way, and deals with the length of time in which the 20% discount applies. The Bill provides for a five-year period, after which the property can be sold and any gain accrues to the original purchaser. Amendment 39 would retain the 20% discounted price in perpetuity, so that the property would always be sold at 20% less than what by that time would be the market price. The benefit of the 20% discount would therefore go to successive purchasers of the property, which would remain at a discounted price, rather than it effectively disappearing into the pockets of the first lucky first-time buyer.

Amendment 39A would extend the categories of properties which might be purchased, by including properties bought under a rent-to-buy agreement as well as those purchased directly. This seeks to cater to buyers who might find it difficult to obtain or service a mortgage by allowing them to participate in the rent-to-buy scheme; it could be extended to shared-equity purchases. The Minister might look into these possibilities before we return to these issues on Report. The thrust of the amendment is that prime consideration needs to be given, in terms of affordability, to the means of the buyer and not simply to the price of the house. That is cardinal to achieving greater access to genuinely affordable houses on the private housing market. Accordingly, I beg to move.

Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Labour)

I have to inform your Lordships that if this amendment is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 39 owing to pre-emption.

Lord Best (Crossbench)

My Lords, it is time for the Cross Benches to join in. Amendment 41A is in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Kerslake, Lord Cameron of Dillington and Lord Beecham, as well as my name. It also relates to this key component of the Bill—the Government’s flagship policy of starter homes—and is all about reducing demand for this new product so that starter homes are not such a cuckoo in the nest. Just to reiterate, these are homes for first-time buyers under 40 sold at a 20% discount, with the costs borne by housebuilders, who in return are now excused the normal requirements to provide a percentage of affordable rented or shared-ownership homes and to pay a community infrastructure levy.

I preface my remarks with an overarching comment on where we have got to in relation to the starter homes initiative. If only starter homes were all additional to the affordable rented homes that would otherwise be provided, I am sure there would be far less concern. However, they would then of course need to be funded separately, instead of replacing accommodation for those on lower incomes. What would that cost? If the average discount was something around £40,000, the total cost over five years for 200,000 of these homes would be £8 billion. The Government have already pledged something over £2 billion to assist with the programme, leaving under £6 billion—rather more than £1 billion a year—to be found if only the scheme was intended to add starter homes while serving the same number of people. However, this is not where we are.

On Tuesday we talked a lot in Committee about the losers from this policy: the people who would have obtained those rented or shared-ownership homes that will not now be built. Today we are talking more about the winners from the starter homes policy and whether this scheme is rather more generous than it needs to be. Who are these winners, and does the nation get value for money from rewarding them in this way? A big group of beneficiaries will be those of my generation. This is not because I am under 40, but because the starter homes initiative will benefit parents of buyers, since the bank of mum and dad will not need to be drawn upon so heavily. Over a quarter of first-time buyers have been dependent on this source of funds, so a lot of parents can now draw a sigh of relief that government will pay instead.

Secondly, of course, the main gainers from the policy will be those lucky buyers who can receive up to £112,000 towards their purchase in London and up to £62,500 elsewhere. These discounts take the form of grants after five years; the purchaser can then keep all the money alongside keeping 100% of the increase in the property’s value, of course. That is great for these buyers.

Owner-occupation does indeed provide a level of security, a source of pride, an encouragement to maintain and improve the home, and a degree of freedom that renting does not. But because these discounts represent a hefty subsidy to the buyer at the expense of a relatively worse-off household, who will not now get the affordable rented home which starter homes have replaced, we need to ask whether this trade-off represents good value for money for the nation.

Now comes a rather startling additional factor, to which some reference has been made today: the Housing Minister has stated his hope that buyers will be able to combine the new 20% starter homes discount with the current 20% Help to Buy interest-free loan. In London that Help to Buy equity loan is now to be set at 40%, meaning that a London buyer with both a starter homes discount and a Help to Buy interest-free loan would get 60% off their purchase price. So the buyer of a property costing, say, £500,000, would actually pay only £200,000, getting the other £300,000 from the government schemes.

I note that I am addressing some of the questions that came to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, at 3 am. This level of support to one young person— 60% of the cost of a London apartment—is surely over the top, sympathetic as I am to their desire to escape very high rents in London. It provokes a sentiment expressed by an American colleague: “If the cream is too rich, the cat dies”. Enabling anyone under 40 who can raise a mortgage of £200,000 to buy a property costing £500,000 sounds like a recipe for rapid inflation of property prices and some weird distortions in the market. The Help to Buy scheme’s 20% equity loan has already been criticised for increasing demand more than supply, but it has not been remotely as generous as the 40% interest-free equity loan plus the new starter homes 20% discount. I wonder whether the Bank of England has a view on this. It is that cash discount which really takes the package to absurd lengths. Unlike the Help to Buy equity loan, which after five years attracts 1% interest, rising annually thereafter, and must be repaid at its new value whenever the home is sold, the 20% starter homes discount simply converts into an outright grant. This means that it is the culprit for making the cream too rich.

In terms of value for money for the taxpayer, these hefty grants benefit just the one initial purchaser, if they stay for five years or more—and they are unlikely to move out any earlier, since they would then forfeit this huge windfall gain. The next buyer then pays 100% of market value and obtains no benefit from the initial subsidy. By contrast, if the same level of grant had been used for an affordable rented or shared-ownership home, rather than for the starter home that replaces it, the benefit of the initial grant would have gone on indefinitely, helping all future occupiers. We should bear in mind that there is a lot of dead weight here: currently, tens of thousands of households become first-time buyers without generous grants. In future no one, whatever their income or the wealth of their parents, will be advised to buy a new home without collecting a starter home grant. So the gains to society from this redistribution are short-lived and benefit only one buyer, who may, or may not, need the money.

Concern about the cost and displacement effects of the starter homes initiative comes not only from those who worry about the displacement of affordable rented accommodation. The mortgage lenders are worried by the dangers of distortion to the market. The Council of Mortgage Lenders says that the starter homes offer to potential buyers,

“is likely to stimulate excess demand including from those who may already be able to use existing schemes, and will increase the potential for driving up house prices”.

The Building Societies Association says:

“Our concern is that the 20% discount is just there for five years. We think it should be built in”.

In another words, it should be there in perpetuity to assist other buyers later on.

As others have noted, lenders also have the problem that no one knows how to value a product that comprises both a property and a large cash reward in five years’ time. Jones Lang LaSalle, a valuation expert, envisages real difficulties, as noted by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. I have the quote from it that he was seeking:

“80% of Market Value sounds simple; but what is the Market Value of a home where conditions are attached to its purchase”?

The bonus of 20% after five years certainly ups the real value, but by how much? The housebuilders, too—who might be expected to support any measure that raises the demand for, and increases the prices of, the homes they build—are equally alarmed. They want stability and consistency; they see the dangers of people clamouring to buy because of the huge rewards from the big bonus of a non-repayable discount. This rich cream may push up prices initially but is likely to have a depressing effect on both adjacent new homes and on the second-hand market all around, where no such bonus is available. There may be a further depressing effect when the big numbers of starter homes are five years old and come back on the market with no discount. The major housebuilders developing the really large sites will still be selling new homes in five years’ time. If they have to compete with a glut of resales by starter home buyers, this undermines their forward planning. I know that some of the big players feel they would have to move away from building anything for the first-time market except starter homes, and that might mean a decline in their overall output of new homes.

Already an impact may be beginning to emerge, as people postpone any buying decisions until the starter homes deal is available to them. Meanwhile the fact that the first timer collects all the subsidy for themselves after five years is particularly problematic for landowners wanting to make land available to help local people, as we shall hear on later amendments. A key criticism therefore, and I think it is a universal one, of the starter homes model is that if the one-off windfall is too advantageous—if the cream is too rich—the positive features of this initiative will be completely undermined.

I come to the solutions, or at least the partial solutions, to the problems which the starter homes initiative raises. There could be tough eligibility criteria, limiting access to people not able otherwise to purchase at all; and/or to people such as teachers, NHS staff or other key workers who are needed in the locality. These are ways of securing public benefit from the initiative while dampening the excess demand.

Amendment 41A seeks to get better value from the starter homes proposal by retrieving a proportion of the subsidy on a sliding scale over 20 years when the buyer sells up. I certainly commend the alternative suggestion that there should be a covenant on resales in perpetuity, to lock in the 20% discount to keep helping future buyers. That would convert the discount into an interest-free loan, to add to the support available under the Help to Buy scheme. If that approach fails to find favour, however, my amendment, supported by the noble Lords, Lord Kerslake, Lord Cameron and Lord Beecham, provides an option which I hope appeals to the Government. Under the proposition in this amendment the purchaser would repay the 20% discount less one-20th—that is, less than 1% of the original figure—for each year of occupancy. Therefore someone who left after 10 years would retain half the discount and pay back the other half. Purchasers are still helped to buy by the discount, still keep some of it and still get the capital gains on the whole of that proportion of the value; but they cannot walk off with all the subsidy after a five-year term.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

That is an area that confuses me. When we talk about repayment, who is actually being repaid? I cannot work it out.

Lord Best (Crossbench)

The Bill and my amendment leave open whether repayment would be to the local authority where the home has been built—which I would support—or to the Homes and Communities Agency, to be used for housing elsewhere.

By making the offer a little less generous—by making the cream a little less rich—the excessive stimulus and distortion of this market is reduced, I hope, and the cost to the nation in losing out on affordable rented homes is made a little easier to bear.

Lord Kerslake (Crossbench)

My Lords, I support Amendment 41A, spoken to so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Best. I declare my interest as chair of Peabody, president of the Local Government Association and chair of the London Housing Commission.

The focus in our debate on Tuesday was on the impact of proposals on social rented housing. As the noble Lord, Lord Best, has said, there is a price to be paid in the current model for that sort of housing. We also spent considerable time debating the one-size-fits-all approach to planning that is envisaged to support starter homes. Today we have focused on starter homes as a product in itself; indeed, we might say that we have spent most of this morning on what might be described as product design, and the Committee might agree that this has been a rather unsatisfactory process. The reason why this is the case is quite clear: with starter homes we are going from a prototype to full production by missing out the stages in between, so it is hardly surprising that we are struggling to make sense of something that, in truth, has not been fully designed.

If we ourselves are confused, struggling with this, frustrated or indeed concerned, it may be some consolation to the Committee that such confusion, concern and frustration are shared equally by the house builders and lenders. Before we come to the amendment, it is important to explain the context for why this issue is so difficult for them and for us. There have been products to help first-time buyers to access home ownership for 30 years now. It is not a new concept; it has been around under both Governments as something that they aspired to achieve. The aims have been twofold. The first has been to help people with the deposit. People often have the income to enable them to pay the mortgage but not essentially the wherewithal to pay the deposit on the property. That was one key element of helping people into home ownership. The second reason why we went down the road of promoting home ownership products was to sustain demand, particularly following the financial crash in 2007. So there were two reasons why, as I say, Labour Governments as much as Conservative ones have gone down this route.

Up to 2013, the cost of these products came essentially from departmental budgets—in this case CLG and, before that, the ODPM. Because budgets were tight, accessibility to these products was constrained and in fact linked to income, as was talked about earlier. That was our basic model prior to 2013. In 2013, though, it was established by the Treasury, and there was some very clever thinking on this, that in fact these forms of support, in the shape of equity loans, could be regarded essentially as financial instruments and held against a third-party asset. As a financial instrument, they scored as debt but not as deficit. The Chancellor therefore thought that he could expand them in a pretty unconstrained way, so income requirements came off and the size and value of the property that you could buy went up substantially.

That was a crucial shift to making these schemes much more widely available. In fact, in 2013 a large sum was assigned—it was expanded to £10 billion later on—to take this through to 2020. In addition to that, there was £12 billion to support an additional product, Mortgage Guarantee, which underpinned mortgages. So there were two products that effectively helped people to get over the deposit problem, Help to Buy and Mortgage Guarantee. Since 2013 there have been something like 126,000 purchases using one or other of those products, and £3.8 billion of government money has been put alongside that. I cannot say how many of those people who bought are under 40 because I do not think those data are held, but I am willing to bet that a large number were in that age category.

I say all this because it raises the question: what market gap are we trying to fill here? We have an existing product that helps people to access the market. If there is an issue of home ownership, it is essentially because of the wider issue of supply and house prices rather than the absence of what has been a pretty effective product that has worked very well for those who have purchased. This is a crucial point in our debate and in how we think about the amendment.

That set of products, Help to Buy and Mortgage Guarantee, was introduced very quickly and very well, partly through the skills of the department and the Homes and Communities Agency but also because they were building on existing products that involved equity loans. Starter homes is an entirely different product because it does not give people a loan linked to the value of the property; essentially, as the noble Lord, Lord Best, has said, it gives them a significant cash benefit. When you give people cash benefits of such generosity in this form, you are likely to see distortions of the market and issues of fraud. That is a logical consequence. The reason why we could be confident about equity loans not creating the same problem was that they were a loan that the individual would ultimately pay off, rather than getting a cash gain. This should drive and inform all our thinking on this product.

I have talked here about the issue of what this product is and why there are concerns about it, but we should also work harder on the issue of who benefits from this product. I am very fortunate to have had some advance information from a forthcoming publication from Shelter on this, which I think will become the definitive publication on the question of who can access this product. I shall give the House the numbers for London. In terms of market sale properties, the estimated annual household income that you would need in order to purchase a market property in London now is £83,000. That makes a market sale property inaccessible to 90% of private renters; on Shelter’s calculation, 90% of private renters in London could not access market purchase properties. For London Help to Buy the figure becomes an income of £68,000, but it is still inaccessible to 80% of private renters. Starter homes, at the medium price for houses in London, not at the cap that has been talked about, requires an estimated annual household income of £62,000 and in fact is inaccessible to 70% to 80% of private renters. Shared ownership scores better but is still an issue because of difficulties in accessing mortgages, and you have to pay the rent on the bit that you do not own. You would still have to have an annual household income of £38,000, and in London it would still be inaccessible to 68% of the population.

I give noble Lords all these figures to put it beyond doubt that, at least in London, those who will benefit from this gift are a very small proportion of private renters. As we have heard, outside London the position is much more complex but, in summary, in the areas where there is high demand, such as the south-east, the east and the south-west, it would be reliably available only for those who were high earners—that is, in the 70th percentile. It would be out of reach in those high-demand areas for people on average incomes; and, in fact, for virtually the whole of the country, those who are on low incomes will not be able to access the starter homes product. It is crucial to have this sense of how big the gift is and who will be able to benefit from it.

We should be clear that, unlike Help to Buy, which could be funded through financial instruments, this effectively requires direct cash from government—either in the form of a direct grant to housebuilders or of benefits forgone in relation to affordable housing. Effectively, as taxpayers, we are directly paying for the full cost of this subsidy.

This amendment does not wholly address all the issues that I have raised. It is arguable that a better route for the Government to have gone down would have been to improve and tweak Help to Buy, as they are now doing in London, rather than to introduce a wholly new product that requires direct government funding to make it work. However, we are where we are; it is in the manifesto and we have to accept it.

The amendment does address quite a few of the problems. First, as my noble friend Lord Best said, it can address dead weight. You are not giving people something; they only have to wait five years to get the full benefit from it. It will prolong the period in which they would have to wait to get that benefit. Potentially, going for in perpetuity would mean they would not gain it at all.

Secondly, it creates a genuinely differentiated product. This is a big issue for the housebuilders because they say, “On one site over here we have built no starter homes; on another site over there we have built starter homes. Which are people likely to go for”? It is absolutely clear. So you can create a genuinely differentiated product. It is a lot fairer. You do not simply give a huge amount of money to people already on higher incomes. As my noble friend Lord Best said, you can hold the affordability for a much longer period—potentially in perpetuity.

It creates what I would call a tradeable product. If somebody chooses to leave after 10 years—according to the amendment we have tabled—then they would effectively give up or pay over half of the 20%, based on the market value at that point. That money could go into the local authority and could provide it with an incentive—which the Government are seeking—to support starter homes. It creates a direct financial link and it repays at least some of the money that the Government have put in to making this scheme work.

Given we are where we are with starter homes, in my view this is a massively better way of delivering them. It is fairer, a more distinct offer and could genuinely address a need that might be out there. I want to ask the Minister why we have not done a proper options appraisal on the option of 20 years tapered over the period, or indeed in perpetuity. It would help the Committee if noble Lords could see a proper cost-benefit appraisal of these alternatives.

Lord Young of Cookham (Conservative)

My Lords, before I speak briefly on Amendment 39A, I want to touch on the point that both the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, and the noble Lord, Lord Best, raised about the issue of dead weight. This is something that has dogged housing policy for a very long time. There is dead weight in the right to buy in that many local authority tenants might have purchased without the discount. There is dead weight in transferable, portable discounts. In both these cases, Administrations of all colours have taken the view that the overall benefits of the policy of promoting home ownership and diversity of tenure have justified a bit of dead weight. In the earlier debate a number of suggestions were put forward to minimise the risk of dead weight in that, in so far as this product is oversubscribed, there is a way of prioritising. In his speech, the noble Lord, Lord Best, mentioned a number of ways of doing this. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, mentioned one. There was one in an amendment and I mentioned others. If there is an excess of demand, one can tackle the issue of dead weight by prioritising it to those for whom the dead weight issue is not there because they would not be able to afford it without it. Or they are moving out of social housing and therefore freeing up a tenancy. I take the point about dead weight but there may be ways through. It is something that has been there for a long time.

I turn to Amendment 39A, in the name of my noble friend Lord Lansley, who is in Brussels today. During the debate on Chapter 1 on Tuesday, a number of noble Lords suggested that we should have had this debate on definition first before we had the debate on Clause 1. I note with some satisfaction that we have now moved from line 11 on page 1 to line 12—so progress is being made. My noble friend Lord Lansley was seeking to stretch the definition of starter homes to include Rent to Buy. In her winding-up speech, my noble friend the Minister referred to the definition of the starter home. She said that Clause 2 talks about the criterion for a starter home and then went on to define it. When pressed for a slightly tighter definition, she said:

“That is fine. I just thought I would set that out now. I know we will be talking about it later”—[Official Report, 1/3/16; col. 766]—

in response to what my noble friend Lord Lansley said about Clause 2.

At the moment we have a product—Rent to Buy—which is a hybrid, in that it sits between affordable renting and affordable home ownership. It is a product aimed at those who are renting but who cannot afford a deposit. In return for paying a lower rent, they are allowed to purchase their home after a set number of years. Under the current definition of a starter home, the insertion of the word “purchase” means that they would be excluded in that they have not—

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

The noble Lord, Lord Young, said that in return for paying a slightly lower rent, they would effectively acquire an equity stake. Does he not mean a slightly higher rent as part of the Rent to Buy process?

Lord Young of Cookham (Conservative)

I am reading from the briefing from Rentplus:

“The affordable rent to buy tenure addresses this, enabling tenants to save more through paying lower rents and allowing them to purchase their home after a set number of years”.

In other words, the money is put on one side to enable them to buy the product at a later date. That is from Rentplus, and I am very happy to let the noble Baroness have the briefing. It was debated in another place and, in response to a question, the Minister replied:

“Higher income tenants in a Rent to Buy scheme will not face increased rent under proposals for pay to stay. This is because the rent they pay is an intermediate rent”—

this may answer the noble Baroness’s question—

“which is excluded from social rent policy”.

The purpose of the amendment is to see whether this product—and there may be other products, such as shared ownership—will qualify as starter homes under the definition. Or, if it does not qualify under the current definition, whether the definition could be looked at so that products that promote home ownership will be included in the starter homes definition. We had a bit of this debate on Clause 1. I hope it will not be so narrowly drawn that a number of worthwhile products, such a Rent to Buy, will be able to score as starter homes. Again, just looking at the brief from Rentplus:

“Affordable rent to buy is a new ‘hybrid’ housing tenure, sitting between affordable rent and intermediate housing. The tenure enables working households to save for a deposit whilst renting at an affordable rate (80% of market rent …) allowing tenants to purchase their home after a set number of years”.

I hope that explains to the noble Baroness what the product is. I am surprised that, given her interest in housing, she may not have come across this particular product.

I very much hope that, in her response, my noble friend can give some comfort to those aspiring home owners who cannot access a deposit which is necessary for starter homes but who are seeking to enter home ownership through a different route.

Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 46. I support all the amendments in this group and the comments that were made by the noble Lords, Lord Kerslake and Lord Best. I support the Government’s aim to provide more homes for those who cannot currently afford them, but fear that the time-limited discount of 20% will be seen as unfair by those not able to access it, and will be unlikely to increase the housing supply in the future.

I do not support the discount remaining in place for the limited period of five years. This is a very sizeable discount, as other noble Lords have explained, and it should be enjoyed by others looking to gain access to the housing market in the future. This is a discount which should be available in perpetuity so that the same home can be within the reach of others, despite the inevitable rise that inflation will cause to the price of the property over its lifetime. Have the Government thought about what will happen if a purchaser fails?

Who will get the discount if that initial purchaser defaults? Perhaps there is a bit of a perverse incentive for a lender to repossess after year 4.

Why should the first purchaser receive the discount, live in the dwelling for five years and then sell it, keep the discount and the uplift in the value of the house due to inflation and not pass that discount on to the next person? This discount is to be funded from local taxpayers, via the sale of high-value council homes. I feel certain that those taxpayers would wish their hard-earned money to be used wisely and to be recycled wherever possible.

The Bill proposes that starter homes can be resold or let at open-market value five years after the initial sale. The restrictions on resales and letting at open-market value should be in perpetuity, as is often the case in many council-run, low-cost home ownership schemes, or extended to a longer period—for example, 20 years—to discourage speculation and enable more households to benefit, generating maximum returns from public investment. Further delivery of starter homes through the planning system will create significant burdens on council planning teams, so they should be fully funded by reforms granting local planning authorities the flexibility to set planning fees locally.

Like others in your Lordships’ House, I have received many briefings from a variety of organisations, all saying more or less the same thing. The 20% discount should not be a one-off. It should attach to the property in perpetuity and it should not be a one-off windfall for the first purchaser. I have heard the Minister’s rationale for the discount being a one-off but I regret that I am not convinced, and neither are those who have contacted me on this issue.

None of those lobbying believes that this policy will help to solve the housing crisis the country is currently undergoing. My preference is for a discount in perpetuity. Failing that, I support the sliding scale proposed by the noble Lords, Lord Best, Lord Kerslake, Lord Cameron and Lord Beecham, in their amendment. I urge the Minister to encourage the Government to reconsider this aspect of the Bill.

Lord Horam (Conservative)

My Lords, I will comment very briefly on the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, who made a significant point about the existing instruments we have to help people in this situation—the Help to Buy method and so forth. He made the point that this is a financial instrument and therefore the debt/deficit equation, which is so important to the Government, is resolved by using these sorts of methods. As he pointed out, no fewer than 126,000 people, with total costs of £3.8 billion, have been helped by these methods.

The simple point is that it has not been enough. As the noble Lord also pointed out, you have to have an income of no less than £83,000 to be able to afford a house in London, and 90% of people cannot do that. So the plain fact is that we need to do more—which is what Government are trying to address with starter homes. We dealt two days ago with the question of whether we are helping the right people when we addressed the question of whether you can help people who are in a different category but who are even more disadvantaged than people who might benefit from starter homes. We dealt with that issue—or at least we tried to. Now we are dealing with whether this is the right kind of instrument in the circumstances to deal with the fact that we have a crisis, particularly in London, and the present instruments do not help enough. That is the fundamental point.

Lord Kerslake (Crossbench)

I am grateful for the opportunity to come back on this point. The noble Lord is entirely right to say that we need to do more—there is no question about that. I strongly hold the view that we need to put a lot more into the building of new housing. If there is an issue about the existing products, as there was in London with Help to Buy, we should look to revise and amend the products themselves rather than introduce a new product which essentially competes in the same market and, instead of giving people a loan to help them with their deposit, gives them a very substantial gift. I am most concerned about that issue. I said that we had to make choices about priorities and doing more. As my noble friend Lord Best said, we have this cash, so I would put it into affordable rented accommodation. Nothing you will do in relation to these products will make housing accessible for people on middle or low incomes. We have to build an awful lot of houses for an awfully long time before they will benefit.

Lord Horam (Conservative)

I entirely agree with that. My way would be to recognise that the sort of lift in the cap on borrowing for local authorities, for example, is perfectly acceptable in the context of the Government’s overall economic strategy. If you look at what is now being said worldwide by the International Monetary Fund and the OECD, at the moment they are calling for more capital investment of this kind, and there is no better capital investment than housing. It is interesting that insurance companies, for example, are now going into the build-to-rent market in a fairly big way in London, because the sort of regular, sensible rents you get from that sort of market precisely match the sort of income streams they need to service insurance bonds. That is a very interesting development, which I am sure the Government will welcome and which shows how the market, if left to itself, can itself resolve some of these questions.

To digress for a moment, the reason that insurance companies are going into this area is not only that it is a very interesting way of solving their problems but that the price is high enough for them to be able to produce buildings at a cost which enables them to rent them out to young people at a price they cannot afford. So the very high price is producing a supply consequence which is very favourable. None the less, the noble Lord is right that what is proposed here is a new product, and there is always a danger with a new product that it will lead to distortions of the market. If you try to interfere in a market situation with a product that has not been thoroughly thought-through, you risk unintended consequences—and that is what we are worrying about in this situation.

If that is the case, Amendments 38 and 39, put forward by the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham, are frankly impractical. They are not the way to deal with this problem. They are putting into the system the local authority having to decide what the level of affordability is in a particular area, when the market already decides what affordability is in a particular area. Frankly, therefore, I do not trust local authorities to second-guess the market as to what the right level of affordability is.

Secondly, on the idea of having a discount in perpetuity, as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, rightly pointed out, how on earth do you value it in the future? Indeed, how on earth do you value it now? There is no way you can value something which has been separated from the rest of the market, which is determined by market forces, and which has a value discount attached to it. You cannot do that—there is no way an accountant could work that out over a period of time and make any kind of sense of it. Inevitably, if you try to put in something in perpetuity, it will disappear into the general market in due course, probably in some way you do not expect.

So the right answer is the amendment put down by the noble Lords, Lord Best, Lord Kerslake and Lord Beecham—two minuses and one plus, from his point of view—whereby you pull back some of the discount over a period of time from the people who benefited from this government largesse. You are achieving what you want to do, which is to get them into a new house and to start a home and so forth, but you are pulling back some of the advantages you gave to them to achieve that.

However, I point out that even that has its impracticalities, because you will be asking them to pay back rather a large amount of money at some stage unknown—they do not know when and you do not know when—in the future. That could be a very considerable amount of money. I do not know how you would do this over a period of time and whether you would do this in one lump sum or whatever it may be, and you and they do not know what their circumstances will be. So there are impracticalities even with this. None the less, we have to have some measure by which you can pull back some of the advantages you are giving to people under this new model, and the Government have to think very carefully about how they handle this.

Lord Shipley (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, I am a signatory to Amendment 46. I want to refer to the report from Generation Rent, which was published earlier this week and found that public subsidies proposed by the Government will help comparatively few people. That is because very few people in the private rented sector will be able to benefit from the scheme, and the 200,000 people who stand to benefit could receive a huge dividend if they sell up after the five-year discount period expires, with the potential for six-figure profits individually. We have heard a great deal about this but these are very large sums of money.

The consequence is that the scheme will increase inequalities between those who own property and those who do not, and there will be a lack of any sense of fairness between those who can afford a subsidised starter home and those who cannot, driving social inequalities wider and deeper. I wonder whether that is really what the Government want to achieve.

I should like to ask the Minister whether the Government are committed to the statement in Conservative election manifesto that starter homes will be exclusively for first-time buyers. The point is that when the homes are sold on after five years or later, there is no guarantee from the Government that they will be bought by first-time buyers. So these are starter homes for first-time buyers but theoretically only for five years; after that, the benefit that had accrued from defining them as homes for first-time buyers will be lost.

I am still puzzled by the Minister’s statement before the lunch break to the effect that it may well be possible that starter homes will be sold as second homes. I keep thinking about those parts of the country that are short of housing and where starter homes may be important in providing additional opportunities for people. The prospect that they may be sold and lost to the next generation who could take up starter homes I find particularly disturbing.

We need clarity from the Minister. If housing affordability fails to improve, future first-time buyers will find it very difficult to get on to the housing ladder, so having a discount which carried on in perpetuity would help the Government to keep their promise.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

I am sorry to intervene but I cannot understand how this would work. I am not trying to be critical in any way; I only want to know how it would work. Can the noble Lord give us an example of a property purchased at a discount under this scheme? What would happen at its first sale? How would the price be determined? What would be the position of the estate agent selling the property? Would a valuer be involved? I am trying to understand the mechanism here. If it worked then it would be reasonable to consider it but, like the noble Lord, Lord Horam, I cannot see any mechanism that would make it work. Can he please explain?

Lord Shipley (Liberal Democrat)

I agree with the noble Lord. I am as concerned as he is about these matters. Of course, I had assumed that there would be a role for the valuation system. There may be a role for local authorities, or there may be a role for both. That system exists in relation to council tax valuation, for example, but it seems to me that to prevent market abuse—the noble Lord, absolutely rightly, discussed that before the lunch break—we have to be clear about this, otherwise there could be a problem with how properties are valued. For that reason, in my view there has to be an independent valuer.

This would operate in exactly the same way if there were a taper, going down 1% a year over 20 years, or if the 20% discount applied in perpetuity, but there are ways in which that can be done by using local government and the valuation system. I do not wish to say much more. In this group—

Lord Beecham (Labour)

In terms of the perpetual restriction, does the noble Lord think that it would be possible to discount the sale price by the 20% on every sale for perhaps 20 years or in perpetuity so that no money changed hands? The sale price would be paid, and as far as the buyer was concerned the property would be priced in competition with other kinds of property. I would have thought that that would be a mechanism to secure the preservation of the 20% discount.

Lord Shipley (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, that is a very helpful intervention and it could well be one way in which we could proceed. However, we are in Committee on the Bill and I would have thought that the Government would be able to explain this to your Lordships’ House, as opposed to individual Members of the House having to come up with proposals for the Government to consider when the Bill has now been in front of Parliament for many months.

There are two approaches in terms of Amendment 46: our approach is the “in perpetuity” one and another one involves tapers. Some further thought has to be given to that. The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, rightly identified that the Government have not presented any options for consideration. There has been no cost-benefit appraisal and I am very surprised about that. If there has not been, there should have been.

The issue of avoiding dead weight also seems to be very important. I concede entirely that occasionally dead weight will apply, because the overall gain is greater than the loss on dead weight. However, if there is too much dead weight, it means that some are being subsidised at the cost of others.

I agree entirely with those noble Lords who have said that the priority should be affordable rented housing, as so very many people cannot participate in buying starter homes because they either do not have the deposit or do not have the ability to repay the mortgage. I hope the Minister will respond to what the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, called a gift, and the noble Lord, Lord Horam, referred to using the words “government largesse”. We have to be very clear who is getting the financial advantage here. At the moment, I believe that we are driving a deeper wedge in terms of social exclusion.

Lord Cameron of Dillington (Crossbench)

My Lords, I put my name to Amendment 41. I was going to list the range of various abuses that I felt the starter homes regime would be open to, but that has been done with much greater expertise and experience by my colleagues, my noble friends Lord Best and Lord Kerslake, and, indeed, with greater eloquence.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I just do not want to happen today what happened on Tuesday. Amendment 41 is in the following group, but I am very happen to listen to him and to respond.

Lord Cameron of Dillington (Crossbench)

I do apologise; I meant Amendment 41A.

The point that everyone has made, including the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, who I did not mention just now, is that the moment you falsify a market, there will always be someone looking to make a turn. If the Government are experimenting with a new product, I am certain that financiers and traders will be very quick to find new ways of taking advantage.

To my way of thinking, starter homes do little, in the countryside at any rate, to solve the urgent housing problems of those many families in real need. The other big shortfall of starter homes, when compared with, say, shared equity, is their transiency. Unless we continue to build, let us say, 50,000 starter homes every year in their currently proposed incarnation, not only until 2020 as promised by the Government but ad infinitum, then their very small benefit to society will in each case be lost after only five years.

The lack of affordable housing in this, our very crowded island, is not a short-term problem. I cannot see it diminishing, so we need something more permanently fixed in the affordable sector than starter homes as currently planned. By way of a compromise, to assist starter homes to give a little longer-lasting benefit and to avoid, as has already been said, some of the possible abuses, I believe that Amendment 41A is worth serious consideration by the Government.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

My Lords, might I ask the Minister a question following the powerful speeches from the Cross Benches today? Can she explain why the financial instruments we currently have would not address the problems that she has identified? I think we all agree that we need to increase the supply of housing and that we want more people to have the choice of which tenure they occupy given basic affordability rules. We would also wish to avoid huge discounts being a one-off gain for a select few who then pocket them, with the gain being permanently lost to subsequent generations coming behind them. As the Minister has outlined it, those three objectives are incompatible with each other.

My question is to some extent triggered by the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake: why is the equity loan system not an appropriate way forward to be expanded? Why should government not assist people with an interest-free equity loan for the 20%, the equivalent of the discount? At the time of sale, that 20% would be repaid, and could then be made available to be attached to a new home or any existing home so that there is a continuing pool of money coming back from the 20% equity loan to finance the next generation? It may well be attached to a starter home, or it may be that, in some places, there are no starter homes but, none the less, there are modest Victorian terrace houses which would attract the same potential buyer? Certainly that would be the case in Oxford and Cambridge and so on.

Can the Minister explain what is wrong with the existing instruments? Why would that not help encourage demand in a way that strengthens the supply side, extends purchase to people who are currently struggling, and recycles that money into—as the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, said—continuous generations of would-be purchasers? What is wrong with that? Why should we not do that? Why is that not the simplest way forward to build on what we have? I have been studying this darned impact analysis: not a single figure about cost, number of people or the ultimate effectiveness of the discounts is anywhere to be found. Can the Minister explain why we need this way of meeting objectives that most of us share?

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

I shall very briefly intervene on this occasion just to say that I only wish that Amendment 89L in my name, a very controversial amendment that comes much later in our proceedings, could have been taken at this stage. It would have provided a very different approach to dealing with this matters. But of course we will not come to my amendment for another three weeks, I understand; it is at the very end, by which time everyone will have made their mind up.

I think that if we are to go down this route, Amendment 41A in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Best, Lord Kerslake, Lord Cameron and Lord Beecham, is the perfect solution. In my view, it deals with the problem of excess profit-taking; it provides for the discount system and, if you are acting honourably, you are not penalised in any way. That is the compromise that Ministers should seriously consider. I know that promises were made in the manifesto, but that amendment does not compromise the commitments that were given. It still provides for the 20% discount system which the British people were promised was on offer. I hope that the amendment is very seriously considered.

Earl of Lytton (Crossbench)

My Lords, I have sat on my hands for a considerable while since we started in Committee this morning. I speak to an intriguing amendment, Amendment 41A. Before doing that, I will try to peel back some of the skins of the increasingly complex onion that we appear to be dealing with.

The first thing to realise is that the housing market is potentially a very volatile animal, and has an enormous number of different subset markets—as we have heard, different parts of the country operate in very different situations. I know that your Lordships’ Select Committee on National Policy for the Built Environment heard evidence that, in certain parts of the country—not the north-east or the north-west— the market simply has not returned to anywhere near pre-peak levels of value. However, I leave that to one side.

Earlier, the Minister cited a gap in the market. I question which market we are referring to. Apart from believing that the gap is vanishingly small—we have heard some reasons why other products would effectively fill it anyway; and apart from the means being adopted to plug it in the Bill being vanishingly transient; and, furthermore that the limited category of people whom this type of starter home would actually benefit is, to my way of thinking, irrelevantly small in the overall scale of things, I have to wonder where we are trying to get to.

We need to be clear about whether society will provide lasting sectoral benefit to that proportion of the population that any social society is bound to try to assist. In that, I include people who may have been property owners at some stage, have fallen on hard times and, for whatever reason, have to depend on the state. When you are dealing with free markets, that sort of thing happens. There will always be a proportion of people—I do not pass judgment on how significant or insignificant—who cannot afford to buy and almost certainly cannot afford to pay a market rent. Are we going to assist those people, or to provide an increasing focus on a windfall gain for the few, without reference to the needs or actual means of the few who will benefit? I question what we are doing here.

In introducing Amendment 41A, the noble Lord, Lord Best, identified that the discount and loan assistance taken together is a huge transfer of asset. It is much bigger than the headline 20% figure that we are led to believe applies under starter homes. As the noble Lord, Lord Young, observed on Tuesday, developers are keen on this. Yes, indeed— they would be. Who would not be as an alternative to the affordable housing regime under Section 106, with the uncertain outcomes and unpredictability that that involves? I am not in the least surprised about that. Purchasers of starter homes would also be keen. Who would not be, offered a windfall gain for the asking? I wonder whether we should be devoting quite so much time and effort to this ephemeral social benefit.

When dealing with the question of housing and the impecunious, I am reminded of a gentleman who once said to me, in connection with council house sales, “If I had that sort of cash, I would put it to a better use than buying this place”. I hope that we do not build the sort of place that he was referring to, but I wonder whether, in circumstances of strapped resources in the public domain, we should be funding the ephemeral and assisting those who have access to a deposit that enables them to gain this discount in the first place. There is certainly no gain to the social budget on the sale of a starter home. The mortgage gets paid off, presumably, and the balance of it goes off down the road with someone to their next home. Or, if they have succeeded in being parted from their money, it goes to someone else—some financier who may have come in on the back of this scheme. It was mentioned earlier today that there is absolutely no end to the ingenuity of financiers of all sorts, regular and irregular, who would jump on this bandwagon and might usefully talk people round into doing business with them on the basis that they would share in some of the largesse being provided by society at large.

I believe that doing more here includes retaining a significant element of social benefit of some sort, and it is a matter for debate how much that should be, for society at large—unless of course you believe that the market will do everything, which of course it will not and cannot. History shows us that it does not.

I turn to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Horam, who questioned the means of assessing the value of some of these discounted and other types of what might be called interim ownership of one sort or another. My profession is full of guidance on this. There are many mechanisms for dealing with various social assets of one sort or another. Whether it be an opportunity cost or a replacement value, there are mechanisms for getting at it. They may not be perfect and they may not be precisely what you would look at in terms of market value, but they are not insignificant ways of dealing with assets, whether they be on a balance sheet or the assets of private individuals. That is something we need to consider.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, referred to the fact that a number of people cannot participate in the purchase of a property. I made the point earlier that there will always be that sector, so I very much agree with that sentiment. But fundamentally, the need to build more houses altogether and to have a suite of tenures is what we must concentrate on. But there are dangers in that too. If it is inferred, as I rather suspected the Minister did earlier, that while building a lot more houses under the Government’s policies would serve over time to ameliorate the huge year-on-year increases in house prices in some areas, which they might or might not, building houses is not the only factor. It is also about jobs, communications, infrastructure and removing the blocks both locational and structural. Much of that has to be provided by public sources such as local authorities and government departments. That is one of the reasons why we should not allow all of the social benefit to just disappear into some sort of market transaction. There is a proper function in devoting this through public means where, in particular, market influences fail.

There are, as I have observed elsewhere, including with one of my children, few votes in the amelioration of house price increase. I ask your Lordships to think about this. Who would vote for a static or slow-growing house price market? Certainly not the Treasury or mortgage lenders, business lenders and insurance companies; absolutely not existing homeowners—oh no—and not property marketers and pension funds either. Developers and housebuilders would say no. They along with landowners like consistently rising values. Be careful what you wish for in balancing out supply and demand to get a form of equilibrium. If we ever did reach that situation, I question what kind of economic world we would be looking at and what would happen when one of the most significant economic drivers in our country actually started to falter. There is a very fine line between a market that is moving forward rapidly and apparently successfully and one that suddenly grinds to a halt. We have seen that in other sectors as well as in the housing sector in the past.

There is a lot of overconcentration on starter homes, which gives the appearance, if it does not reflect the reality, that we are abandoning other things. The Minister has tried to make out that there is no such abandonment; why, then, the particular obligation on local authorities to foster starter homes? Is that not skewing the balance? If we proceed as the Government suggest I can see a starter home market forming its own little market sector bubble in which the purchaser may well find that the benefits—the cream to which the noble Lord, Lord Best, referred—may have actually evaporated when it comes to reality.

The market is so complex and full of price differentials—in terms of finish, the style of house, whether there are white goods or none, or carpets or none, and so on—that the only bit of the Amendment 41A where I think that the noble Lord, Lord Horam, has a point is that as we get down to the smaller percentage equity that remains, as it is written off, we get to the point, at about 10% or a bit less, where we cannot distinguish it from any other factor in the marketplace. In other words, it becomes impossible to value that sort of consideration among a basket of maybe 50 different price-sensitive elements that make up a house price.

I am superficially attracted to Amendment 41A. I am very attracted to the idea of retaining a significant element of social benefit in the public sector, because I think the public sector needs it. There is a very good economic reason. It is not a sort of exit strategy; I have no remit to say, “Public sector good, private sector bad”—I do not take sides on that—but I can see, as vice-president of the LGA, as a former president of the National Association of Local Councils, and as a practising chartered surveyor, that this is something where the role of the state and the role of local government, as part of the community, is a very strong element in favour of strengthening and bolstering that and having a better focus. It is not going to do it if there is a progressive siphoning away of what is, in fact, the chief milch cow behind this, which is the housing market.

At the moment, the housing market finances many things. It is, as I have said, a main driver of our economy, and we will not get affordability unless we have good and consistent market-level sales at significant profit. So I think that there are real issues that the Minister needs to consider carefully, with her colleagues, how we square this particular circle, because we have gone into a lot of detail here and I think we are losing sight of the bigger picture.

Lord True (Conservative)

My Lords, I apologise: council duties earlier this week led me to miss the extremely interesting discussions about the relationship between starter homes and affordability. I hope that I will be able to make a contribution to that at Report, because clearly there are issues there. I also missed the early stages this morning, but I have listened with tremendous interest all day, as always, to your Lordships on these questions. Clearly, there are issues that need further discussion. What I heard from the earlier extremely extensive intervention from my noble friend on the Front Bench was that she was open to reflect on all the things that noble Lords have been saying.

The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, with all his authority on the Cross Benches, made the fundamental point, which we have to bear in mind, that this is a manifesto commitment. That was almost the first thing that the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, came in with. So this House has a duty, in my submission, starting from that point, to look at practicalities and ways forward here, some of which have been put before us in these interesting amendments.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

My Lords, I accept the point about the manifesto commitment—we came in in 1997 in the same way. But what we then did was, where possible, to go for a White Paper to flesh out the details of how it would be done and used the responses to that White Paper to shape the regulations behind the drafting of the Bills. Would the noble Lord agree that that is the most appropriate way forward in this case?

Lord True (Conservative)

My Lords, I respect the noble Baroness. We have heard from her many times today and if she would allow me to pursue my remarks I will try to pick up on that point among others. I have been patient. As a general principle—I have said this many times in your Lordships’ House—policy-making should be progressive. We should have Green Papers, White Papers and so on. But that practice was eliminated in the years when Mr Tony Blair was Prime Minister of this country; it disappeared. So I will not take strictures on that point. Perhaps we could form an alliance and move back, but we are dealing with the situation that we have now.

We do have an artificial market at the moment. I would not choose this particular instrument if I was selecting the first XI to bat for England in solving the housing problem. But we have an artificial market at the moment, parts of which are caused by matters we do not address—for example, the growth in population. The biggest distorter is the London market, because there has been an exceptional rise in London’s population. Currently there is no planned instrument to address or control the problem, and that will lead to continuing high pressures on housing.

Another distortion in the market, generally supported across the parties, is the artificial depression of interest rates. If you depress the cost of acquiring or holding a good, the capital value of that good will increase. At the moment we have an artificial situation in which low interest rates relate to capital costs. The problem then for young people who are trying to save for a deposit or acquire a house at a time when capital values are high is that they have had to live during a period in which, for a time, there have been, effectively, negative interest rates for savers. Now there are minimal interest rates for savers. It is extremely difficult in the exceptional and artificial market that we have now for young people to save. I do not want follow the interesting and reasonable points that have been made about people with high capital assets, but it is not easy to save for a deposit when prices are moving away.

So it is perfectly logical and understandable that the Government wish to look at an instrument of this kind that would help people seeking to be first-time buyers. It may not be perfect. In exceptional local authority areas where capital values are high I would like to see further discussions about exceptions and so on, but it is not unreasonable that an instrument of this kind should be considered. The fact that it may be a skin graft when perhaps the market needs heart surgery is not necessarily material because skin grafts are important and useful and do help certain people.

Your Lordships have reservations of different kinds and I am interested in the arguments that have been put forward. I do not agree with those who say that we do not need this instrument. There is nothing in it which threatens the existence of other instruments that have been commended, some of which also cause distortions in the market. So we should go on in a constructive way, look at this proposal—which was put before the British people and voted for—and, for all its imperfections, see if we can make it better. Maybe some of the suggestions made today will contribute to that, maybe they will not—but that is what your Lordships’ House is here to do.

Lord McKenzie of Luton (Labour)

My Lords, while listening to this debate I have been trying to get my mind around the mechanics of how some of this might work. Perhaps the Minister might comment. It seems to me that on day 1 the discount is met by the developer, not by the Government or the purchaser. Other things being equal, you would expect that discount to be represented as a charge against the property. If nothing else changed, should that property be sold it would be sold at market value and the vendor would have an obligation to account for the discount—presumably, in this case, to the Government. If Amendment 41A were accepted, the detriment of that charge would gradually reduce over a number of years, and if there were a disposal there would be a smaller amount to be repaid.

The issue arises as to who the amount gets repaid to—who the charge is discharged in favour of. The Government presumably get some sort of windfall along the way. If they do not, how does it work? Should there be a residual recovery of the charge, who would get the benefit of it? If the charge is written off on the basis of Amendment 41A over a period, in a sense there is nothing to recover. It seems that that is a mechanism to address the issue the noble Lord, Lord Horam, and my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours were pursuing about how the market will work. It would be relatively straightforward if that were the mechanism.

But where are the Government in this in terms of scoring against public expenditure? They do not take a hit on day 1, but do they anywhere along the line? Presumably not if the discount is on some basis fully written off. But if it is not and it is recovered by the Government, that has got to be reflected somewhere. Perhaps the Minister can help us with that.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Conservative)

My Lords, I really like Amendment 41A but I believe the money should go to the local authority in which the property is based, to be used for further housing benefit or whatever else is needed. Local authorities are very hard pressed for funds and all the local communities benefit from anything that goes to them.

It is not at all unreasonable to ask for a certain amount to be repaid. It would be just,

“1% for each year of occupation”—

or is it 1/20th? That is where I am slightly lost. If you occupy a property for 20 years and pay 1% for each year does that mean—my maths are not good enough to work this out—that you have reduced the whole lot at the end of 20 years? If you have not stayed the whole 20 years do you pass it on to the next person, so say after five years that person has a 15% discount, which they can then keep for 15 years? And will they lose that when they pass on the property? I believe that is what is intended. It seems to be the fairest amendment which has been put forward on this.

Lord McKenzie of Luton (Labour)

I accept entirely that the recovery could be by the local authority rather than the Government.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham, for Amendments 38 and 39, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for Amendment 46. I will address them together.

I am very clear that starter homes are a new product. They are a manifesto commitment designed to serve a pressing new need. Clause 2 sets out the key parameters: a starter home is available to first-time buyers, under 40—the very gap that the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, referred to—at a minimum discount of 20% of market value and are subject to a price cap.

The proposed amendments would replace the minimum 20% discount on the open-market value with affordability criteria based on average local household income. Any discount would remain in perpetuity. This amendment would remove the 20% discount on local market values. I cannot support that as 20% is a minimum discount and, if they wish, councils would be free to negotiate with developers for a higher discount if that was best for the area. There is evidence that they do that at the moment for affordable housing.

Much was said at Second Reading and on Tuesday about the affordability of starter homes. Research on affordability by Shelter and Savills for the Local Government Association was based on median house prices in each region. I question whether first-time buyers access the market at average house prices, as I pointed out the other day. Starter homes will be valued to align with local house prices for first-time buyers aged under 40. We are working with the sector and professional bodies to ensure that a transparent process is agreed for valuation.

The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, talked about the Shelter report, which is not out yet—he must be a very important person, as I have not seen it yet. I will be interested to see it when it is published but I must point out that we all agree that London is expensive. I do not think that anybody denies that. In response, I would point out that we estimate that starter homes will be accessible to those with a gross household income of £45,500 in the south-east, as I added up badly yesterday, and of £39,500 in the east of the country.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, challenged the Government’s figures on this question of affordability. I think that he quoted a figure of 68% in one case, which is different from the figures that the Government are giving. The Minister said that she was going to have a look at the report. Will she come back at the next stage, when she has seen that report, and give us an explanation of why there is a difference in the stats?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I can, my Lords. We can all argue about statistics and, given that I have not seen the report, it is very difficult to make a comparison of the different figures. However, I will do so.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour)

In her earlier remarks, the Minister said that authorities could negotiate a higher discount on the property with developers. If they can do that, why can they not negotiate a lower discount as well?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

Because the whole point of the starter home is that it will be available at a discounted level to those under the age of 40. I will give the noble Lord the workings out of why that was arrived at. I am guessing that it was derived for a similar reason to that for the affordable homes discount, which has now been going for many years.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour)

That is very helpful, thank you. We used to hear from the Benches opposite about how local authorities knew best but it has all gone very quiet now. I am thinking of the Localism Act, which was never mentioned again from the Benches opposite.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I do not think that anything changes there. Nobody would promote any louder than I the view that local areas know best but local areas also know that government have certain expectations of them, and it has ever been thus.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, asked me for a breakdown of demand. I elected earlier on to provide that in due course and I will write to him. I do not have it at my fingertips at this point.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

Will it be there next week?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I will try for next week and see what is in the art of the possible.

We have examined the affordability of homes to those who are currently in the private rented sector. If they were to buy a new-build property in the lower quartile of the first-time buyer market outside London, up to 60% of households which are currently renting privately would be able to secure a mortgage on a starter home, compared with 45% who could buy a similar property—

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

That is the figure being challenged.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

That is the figure being challenged and we will return to it later but in the absence of seeing the report and its figures, I cannot comment on that report at this time.

Lord Beecham (Labour)

Can I remind the Minister of my request to see a comparison of newly-built first-time purchases and any other housing that might be bought by a first-time buyer? I suspect that there is a difference.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

I take it that the letters will be circulated to all Members taking part in the debate?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

Absolutely, and they will be placed in the Library. I have the implied first-time price of new build—not the demand figures—by region, which might temporarily satisfy noble Lords. In the north-east, it is £138,000; in the north-west, it is £144,000; in Yorkshire and Humberside, it is £144,000; in the east Midlands, it is £152,000; in the West Midlands, it is £148,000; in the east of England, it is £220,000; in London it is £356,000—no surprises there; in the south-east, it is £352,000; in the south-west, it is £179,000; and in the whole of England it is £216,000. I hope that is all right as a starter for ten, but I will endeavour to get those demand figures for next week.

Within London, up to 47% of households that are currently renting privately would be able to secure a mortgage on a new-build starter home—in the lower quartile of the first-time buyer market—compared to 37% who could buy a similar property now, priced at full market value. This demonstrates that starter homes, at a 20% discount, will provide a genuine opportunity for home ownership for many more households and help them to get a lasting foothold on the property ladder. The noble Lord, Lord Best, talked about the equity loan scheme as being a discount; the very nature of its name implies that it is a loan—it has been extended to 40% in London. But the whole of the debate so far has talked about the inaccessibility of the housing market, particularly for first-time buyers, and London is a really hot case in point. Either we want Londoners to access the London market or we do not—I think that all noble Lords do want Londoners, particularly the young ones, to access the London housing market.

The noble Lord, Lord Best, also said that Help to Buy distorts prices and drives down supply. A government research report that came out last week stated that, actually, Help to Buy does not distort prices but drives up supply. Government research found that 43% of additional new homes built were as a result of Help to Buy. It has, understandably, been an extremely popular product.

Lord Best (Crossbench)

I am not saying that the current 20% Help to Buy support has not been helpful in the marketplace. What I am saying is that the increase from 20% to 40% Help to Buy assistance in London, coupled with a 20% discount—that is where the discount comes in, a cash discount—adds together to 60% of the value of the property. The Minister is right to say that I commented that others have criticised the 20% Help to Buy support—I think we have yet to see it, but we can guess that 60% help to people buying in the form of 40% Help to Buy plus 20% discount really is an extraordinary level of assistance to people, much as we sympathise with their need to move out of rented homes if they can.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I thought that the noble Lord had said discounts, so I apologise if I misheard him. I think I need to reiterate that point: the 40% Help to Buy loan equity plus the 20% discount do not add up to a 60% subsidy. Effectively, 40% of that 60% is in fact a loan and has to be paid back.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

In that case, why does the Minister think she needs a 20% discount on top of a 40% equity loan—which is, frankly, an interest-free bridge, if you like—which then gets repaid and recycled on to the next, so that, as the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said, it is not just a one-off windfall for the lucky first-time accessors to that particular property?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, I think I have been over the arguments many times. As I say, this is a new product introduced by the Government, a manifesto commitment to help that demographic which has been so disenfranchised by the buyers’ market, and it will help those people to get on the housing ladder. I know that we disagree, but everyone in this Chamber has talked about the particular difficulties of London, and that is why the equity loan guarantee scheme is being extended to 40% in London.

The restrictions imposed by permanent discount can make it more difficult to sell and to move on—I have gone through that earlier today. If a property can only ever be sold at a discount, can the owner easily move upwards to a larger home or to a new area? We want to ensure that the opportunity of home ownership comes with future choices and mobility, and not with more constraints. This is central to our vision for first-time buyers: a genuine discount that provides a genuine opportunity for the long-term future. As I have said, this is particularly important for young people, and we intend that starter homes will continue to be provided until 2020 and well beyond—obviously, we cannot commit a future Government to the priorities of the current Government, but that is our intention. A new supply of starter homes will become available for future first-time buyers, who will benefit from the same opportunities as the earlier buyers.

I will now turn to Amendment 41A, which introduces an alternative to the Government’s five-year restriction on sales, and the in-perpetuity model put forward under Amendment 46. This proposes that a 20-year taper is attached to starter homes where a buyer secures an uplift in value of 1% for every year of ownership. However, under this amendment, a couple in their mid-30s buying a starter home as their first house would need to stay there until their mid-50s to realise the full uplift in the value of their property. This seems like a significant restriction on their future mobility and does not support our ambitions for starter homes. Such long-term restrictions would make it more difficult to sell and move on. If the property is sold at a discount, can the owner easily move upwards to a larger home or to a new area? If people find it more difficult to move on, I question whether long-term restrictions will benefit future occupiers.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

Would not such people still get the benefit of house price inflation, irrespective of the discount?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, they would. But the principle behind the Government’s initiative is that within a few years people can start to move up the property ladder, but we want to help them to move on rather more quickly than the noble Lord suggests.

Baroness Blackstone (Labour)

My Lords, I am puzzled by what the Minister is saying. There are hundreds of thousands of young people who have had to buy a small flat early in their lives, at the point when they need to have housing. Very often they have got married and they may have a baby. They then have a second child. They make some savings and move to something larger. They do not have big discounts. So why is the Minister saying that this very small group of people should have such a very large sum of money thrown at them? It really is very difficult to understand.

The Minister has said throughout this debate that she is concerned that other forms of housing and tenure should all be provided with support as well, yet everything she says in response to this debate suggests that starter homes have become of such enormous significance to the Government’s policy that very large sums of money are being promoted to be provided for a relatively small group of people who will, very often, not be the really poor or even middle-income young people but relatively well-off young people. I cannot understand why the Minister thinks that, when it comes to wanting to move to a larger house, this group is not capable of doing what everybody that has been in this group before without a starter home benefit has been able to do? It just does not add up. It is also incredibly inequitable. In fact, the whole scheme is incredibly inequitable. I would have thought that the Government would want to look at the distributional consequences of a scheme of this sort: not just the costs and benefits, as was suggested earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, but who benefits and who does not benefit. The Committee deserves to know something about this, and we have not been told.

At face value, it looks to me as if a large number of people, including young people who want to buy homes, are going to get nothing out of this while a very small number are going to get a great deal and will continue to get a great deal. The Government and the Minister refuse to see that a perpetuity provision such as that proposed in this group of amendments would help to counter some of the criticisms that Members of the Committee have given in the debate this afternoon.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, the noble Baroness asks who will benefit. Young people will benefit, and history shows us that it is young people for whom home ownership has been out of reach.

Lord Kerslake (Crossbench)

There is a critical point here, which has perhaps been missed. When a couple or an individual seek to buy, they will make choices about what they can afford and, accordingly, where they can buy. In some situations, they will choose somewhere, as was said earlier, of lower value, because that is what they can access by way of mortgage; in other places they will gofor somewhere of higher value but with a discount offered. They will make a choice about their purchase at that point. What they are essentially doing, when you put a second charge on a property, is making a trade-off between the discount—and the length of the discount—and the price they have to pay. That is what they are doing.

If you make it five years, anybody will go for that, whether or not they need it, as that will be the only way they can access the property. If you make it 20 years, it is much more likely to be the people who genuinely cannot access full market value who go for the property. This is a crucial point. If you really want to avoid deadweight squeezing out the people who might be able to purchase only with the discount, you have to have a longer taper than five years.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, I think we are going to have to disagree on this. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, made the point that owners would get the uplift from house price inflation. However, that could be the other way round, as after five years, a house could be worth less. The housing market is cyclical—prices go down as well as up—so there will not necessarily be an increase in the house price after five years.

Lord Campbell-Savours (Labour)

So people in this particular group who might be subject to deflation are again picked out to be treated specially: they will have their deflation subsidised by others.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, this is all relative. When house prices come down, the next house up on the ladder will also be cheaper. Under the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Best, after five years the couple in question would benefit from a quarter of the discount. I accept that after 20 years they would benefit from the whole discount. I know there is not agreement in the Committee about this, but we want people who work hard and want to move up the housing ladder to be able to do so.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour)

We all want people who work hard to move up the housing ladder, but the problem here is that this is such a small group of people.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Labour)

Can the Minister explain something? I think most of us would sympathise with trying to find the best way to help people into owner-occupation, particularly given the pressure of house prices. We could argue whether it should be equity loans, starter home discounts of 20% or anything else, but why this sudden fixation with mobility for people who are no longer first-time buyers but second-time buyers and maybe, subsequently, third-time buyers to be free of any discount so that they can enter the market without having had to save, as my noble friend said, in the way that everybody else has? Why do the Government consider it to be part of their responsibility to help people become second-time buyers?

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

My Lords, housing is an issue for government and there is a huge demand on housing in this country. This scheme is not to the exclusion of other products—I must stress that it is not as though we have switched off the tap to all other products. Sitting on these Benches, one might think that there were no other products on the market, but there are. This is one way of helping that demographic for whom home ownership has been so out of reach.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour)

I asked a Question this week about people on the living wage for whom homes are out of reach—people who are trapped in the private rented sector. This is not helping those people.

Baroness Williams of Trafford (Conservative)

I did not disagree with the noble Lord. I pointed out the various things that were available, such as shared ownership and affordable rented properties.

The rest of the debate is in Hansard.