Trade Union Bill

Public Bill Committee, 27 October 2015.

Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)

Before we begin, may I ask everybody to ensure that all electronic devices are switched off or in silent mode? We will now continue line-by-line consideration of the Bill.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

On a point of order, Sir Alan. I apologise to the shadow Minister for intervening at this stage. The Standing Orders of the House were changed on Thursday in terms of what is referred to as English votes for English laws. Can you advise, Sir Alan, if those Standing Orders apply to any clauses of the Bill or any amendments to it?

Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)

I have to inform the hon. Gentleman that the changes are not in being yet. It is a proposal that is not as yet completed, so it therefore does not apply in this case and certainly not to this legislation.

Clause 13 - Reserve powers

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I beg to move amendment 101, in clause 13, page 9, line 31, at end insert—

‘(c) Save that no such regulation shall have the effect of altering, in respect of any of the matters to which the reserve powers may be directed, any provision of a contract of employment or a collective agreement or of limiting an employer’s discretion as to the contents of contracts of employment or collective agreements to which the employer is a party”.

It is good to be back under your chairmanship, Sir Alan, for what I hope is the last day of our line-by-line consideration of the Bill. I am sure, given the number of inconsistencies and problems that have been exposed during the course of our debates, that we are all looking forward to coming back to the Bill on Report to raise those concerns again.

Clause 13 proposes further regulation of facility time by the extension of a very wide-ranging reserve power of Ministers of the Crown. I do not wish to detain the Committee unnecessarily by repeating the fundamental arguments for why facility time is so important; I simply draw the Committee’s attention to my previous remarks. I believe there is a serious problem with the nature of the power proposed in clause 13 and how it cuts across the devolution settlement, as was touched on in the point of order from the hon. Member for Glasgow South West.

Under current legislation, trade union workplace representatives have a right to reasonable paid time off to perform certain duties. As we have previously discussed, that has huge benefits for employees and employers alike. The clause could allow the Government to cap the percentage of the employer’s pay bill that is invested in facility time. It will give the Government the power to impose an arbitrary limit on the amount of time that public sector union officials can spend on facility work during working hours. That might be time spent on negotiating improved pay and conditions; training, as outlined in section 168 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992; promoting learning opportunities as union learning reps under section 168A of the 1992 Act, which the Minister said he was very supportive of; accompanying individuals in grievance and disciplinary hearings, under section 10 of the Employment Relations Act 1999, which is a very important function that I have been involved in; or on health and safety duties and training, under the regulations made under section 2 of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974.

The potential consequences of this are deeply concerning. The Government have not set out exactly which of those duties they seek to cap or which particular sectors the clause will apply to. They are leaving themselves a very wide-ranging power for intervening. They say, as they have so often told us, “Trust us, we’re the Ministers,” but that is simply not good enough when it comes to such important matters.

The clause is particularly troubling to Opposition Members because it establishes a clear democratic deficit in three main areas. First, the provisions will mean that Government Ministers can use as yet unseen secondary legislation to push through restrictions or repeal trade union rights contained in primary legislation. While hon. Members on both sides of the Committee recognise the important role that secondary legislation plays, many would also accept that it gives Parliament less opportunity to debate and amend such regulations than would otherwise be the case.

Secondly, the provisions could prevent public sector employers, including in Scotland and Wales who have responsibility for a number of wholly devolved areas of public service provision and who have their own democratic mandate, from deciding how to manage employment relations in their workplace and how to engage with their staff.

Thirdly, the provisions mean that the Government can be selective as to which public and local authorities may be forced to impose a cap, introducing an element of significant discrimination on quite wide-ranging powers to behave in a very partisan and nakedly political way over these matters.

There are significant questions about the legality of such a change. We heard during the oral evidence stage from Professor Ewing, the Welsh and Scottish Governments and others, about the potential contraventions that the Bill provides. There is a risk that the proposal for a cap could conflict with EU law which protects the rights of health and safety representatives to paid time for their duties and training; the rights of trade union representatives to paid time off and office facilities during consultations on collective redundancies and outsourcing under their TUPE rights; and even under general information and consultation arrangements covered by the Information and Consultation of Employees Regulations.

The measures also represent a significant attack on rights that are protected by the European convention on human rights and ILO conventions. We have many questions about the clause. I hope that the Minister can explain what legal advice he has taken on the question of whether the proposal for a cap conflicts with EU law, with TUPE rights and with the Information and Consultation of Employees Regulations 2004. I would like him to be very specific on those three points.

We had a partial debate about the clause in our discussion of clause 12, and I was intrigued by some of the Minister’s comments. He promised that he would write to the Committee and he has done so. He reiterated the point he made in line-by-line consideration and said:

“I promised to write to the Committee before we debate Clause 13 to indicate who will exercise the powers in Clause 12 to require the publication of information about facility time and who may exercise the reserve powers in Clause 13 having regard to that information…It is right that Ministers have the flexibility to propose and, as a last resort, set caps on paid facility time…This will allow the relevant Minister to make regulations tailored to that. So, for example, the Secretary of State for Health will make regulations imposing publication requirements on NHS and other health employers and may exercise the reserve powers in relation to them if he considers appropriate to do so taking account of the information relating to facility time that they are required to publish.”

I am extremely concerned that this cuts across the devolution settlement. It cuts across the powers of Welsh and Scottish Ministers to make arrangements in their own sectors. The Welsh First Minister, on hearing the Minister’s comments in our sitting on Thursday and learning of the contents of the letter, has made it clear publicly that he believes it would require the consent of the Welsh Government.

Will the Minister to clarify the position because it seems to be matter of considerable debate? There are clearly conflicting legal opinions—I know which side I am on—and this is a serious matter, given the wider constitutional debates that we are having at the moment. It appears that the Secretary of State for Health or the Secretary of State for Education would use the powers in the clause to intervene in the day-to-day running of the Scottish or Welsh health services.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

My reading of the letter indicates that there would also be interference in local government. There will be an impact, given the devolved Administrations’ funding arrangements and agreements with local government.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Indeed, and the Minister skirted round this issue when we discussed it briefly. Will this power on facility time and, more broadly, the powers in the Bill apply retrospectively and therefore affect existing employment contracts up and down the land, whether in local government or devolved public authorities or in other agreements? The measure could lead to the extensive unwinding of contracts that have been entered into in good faith by individuals, employers and public sector authorities.

Furthermore, when we look at public sector contracts going forward, should Welsh and Scottish Government Ministers and local authority cabinet members engaged in discussions with their employers about the nature of the contracts and the balance of responsibilities and rights expect those contracts to be undermined at any time at the whim of a Minister of the Crown, who could strike out clauses or imply that they are not valid because of some arbitrary decision taken about facility time? I fear that this poses an extraordinarily dangerous precedent, where Ministers will be able to act in a partisan and political way to attack, for example, a local authority or a devolved Government of different political persuasion, to intervene in their powers and democratic mandate to run public services in the way they see fit.

Amendment 101 is intended specifically to prevent a breach of article 11 of the European convention, which precludes a state from negating the provisions of a collective agreement. It would prevent the Government from using regulations and powers under the clause to rewrite existing collective agreements and contracts, which is that retrospective point I made. Those contracts of employment had been voluntarily agreed by public sector employers, employees and unions, and provided union reps with time off to represent their members.

The provision would also mean that public sector employers could agree new collective agreements and contracts of employment providing union reps with time off for union duties, effectively setting aside any arbitrary cap imposed by the Government. I draw the Minister’s attention to the case of Demir and Baykara v. Turkey in 2008 in which the ECHR affirmed the fundamental right of workers to engage in collective bargaining and take collective action to achieve that end.

The power in the clause falls foul not only of legal precedents but of decisions, conventions and standards that we are party to. It would fundamentally cut across the country’s constitutional arrangements and the devolution settlements. It is extraordinarily unwise for the Government to do that, given precedents. I hope the Minister can give a fuller explanation, given the nature of those concerns.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

I reiterate the comments I made on clause 9. This is a bad Bill and this is a bad clause. As the shadow Minister has outlined, we now know the wider implications.

I wish to confine my observations to the comments made by the Minister on Thursday, which he has followed up in writing. First, it appeals to my dry sense of humour that, having rejected amendments on publishing percentages, the Minister writes to us with percentages, in the letter on spending. I am encouraged by that and I hope the Minister will go back and consider publishing percentages on facility time.

The Committee owes a debt of gratitude to the shadow Minister for skilfully wheedling out of the Minister the prospect of the Secretary of State for Health dictating to devolved Administrations on the level of facility time. Presumably the same applies to local government. I am willing to wager that the Minister has not thought through the implications for local governments that have agreements with devolved Administrations on funding and powers through agreements or concordats. It leaves the public with the impression of a Government who conduct first-rate bullying, only days after they declared some Members second class, by a third-rate Administration whose casual approach to legislation does not even provide them with the foresight to realise the constitutional crisis they are sprinting towards.

In no other case do the UK Government have such powers to interfere or dictate to a devolved Administration how to conduct their affairs. The fact that the Government do not consider a legislative consent motion to be appropriate in these circumstances is either remarkable ignorance, gross incompetence or simply the act of a bully. This is dangerous terrain for the Government. I hope the Minister declares what discussions he has had with the devolved Administrations surrounding the reserve powers in the clause, and how they will be enacted.

These proposals are being made in the context of the Scotland and Wales Bills, which have still to conclude their parliamentary journey. It seems extraordinary that the Government can reveal their intentions at the last stages of this process. As the shadow Minister said on Thursday, creating reserve powers signals the intent to use them. The Minister must tell us what, if any, discussions he has had in that regard.

I signal our support for amendment 101. There are clear contractual obligations, and there will be clear costs to public sector employers, which will have to issue new statements of particulars or new contracts to public sector employees.

The proportion of spending on facility time is extremely low, as the Minister confirmed in his letter. Will the Government consider democratic mandates? The Conservative share of the vote at the general election in Scotland was the lowest since universal suffrage. The Conservatives have no mandate in that regard. I was considering whether to press amendment 85 to a Division but, because of the correspondence that we have received, I now feel obliged to do so.

Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)

It is a pleasure to serve again under your chairmanship, Sir Alan. In the context of clauses 12 and 13, I have been remiss in not declaring a non-financial interest in as much as I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association, which is the umbrella body for local authorities in England and Wales.

Clause 13 includes a Henry VIII power whereby Ministers will be able to use secondary legislation to push through restrictions on or to repeal the right to paid time off for trade union duties in the public sector contained in primary legislation, and Parliament will have very limited opportunity to debate or amend such regulations. It is worrying that Ministers are taking such powers unto themselves and, in essence, sidelining Parliament from effective overview and scrutiny of their actions.

The clause demonstrates the Government’s total lack of understanding of the practice of good industrial relations. First, the clause is, in effect, a blank cheque for the Government: if passed, it would give Ministers the power to limit facilities for trade union officials. It contains no explanation of how or why that power would be exercised, and it certainly provides no logic or justification.

Secondly, the provision applies only to the public sector, just like the provision to record time off for facility time, and we need to ask ourselves why that is. First and foremost, like bad employers, this Government feel it is appropriate to threaten and intimidate their own workforce. Of course, the other people who will be affected by the measure are not directly the Government’s workforce but people who work for other public bodies such as local authorities, local government and the emergency services—public servants. The main reason why the provision does not apply to the private sector is because private sector employers do not really want it.

Good employers know and understand the value of working together with their workers and with trade unions. Good employers know and understand that their greatest assets are the good people who work for them. Good employers invest in their workers—they pay them well, train them and reward them; they do all they can to encourage loyalty and dedication. They try to retain their workforce because it costs a lot of money to train staff in a range of different skills and professions. That is why the best employers work in partnership with their workers, and it is why they encourage independent trade unions.

Trade union officials are an integral part of the best companies, working tirelessly to improve relations, productivity and profits. Trade unions know and understand that workers prosper only in growing, profitable firms.

Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the review of facilities and facility time conducted by the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform in 2007? The report concluded that the work of union representatives actually reduces the number of cases proceeding to an employment tribunal and the number of working days lost due to workplace injury and workplace-related illness, and that such reductions result in significant financial savings.

Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)

Yes, I was aware of that, but I thank the hon. Lady for bringing it to the Committee’s attention, because it certainly helps to make the point that I am pursuing.

Clearly, there is a vision of trade unions that this Government do not understand, and that vision is shared by many private sector employers. Unfortunately, this Government see trade unions as the enemy within. They still hark back to the miners’ strike of 1984-85 and to the 1970s, when, we all accept, industrial relations in this country could have been a lot better. However, we are not in the 1970s; it is 2015, and the landscape of industrial relations is very different.

I have been a trade unionist all my adult life. On my second day of employment with British Gas I asked the personnel department how I could see a union official to sign up for my union membership, and I joined the National and Local Government Officers’ Association—NALGO—which is now part of Unison. I think that NALGO was an acronym for “Not A Lot Going On”—[Laughter.] I have been a trade unionist all my adult life, and I had the honour of working with many very decent and honourable union officers, both full-time officials and lay officials who were elected by their peers in the workplace.

I have also been an employer; I was deputy leader of Gateshead Council. Back in the days before we had the severe and harsh cuts that we currently have to go through, we had something like 11,000 employees in Gateshead. They covered a whole spectrum of different professions, providing public services for the people of the borough and the constituency that I represent. We prided ourselves on having good industrial relations and having good dialogue with our workforce on a regular basis. There were of course times when there were problems, but we managed to talk through the vast majority of those problems through good, robust and—on occasion—friendly industrial relations.

I have been above that as well; I have also chaired a national negotiating committee of the LGA called the Soulbury committee. We looked after the interests of advisers for schools, educational psychologists and other professionals of that nature. I therefore have an understanding of the strategic role that employers play in good industrial relations.

The Government need to understand why business is not that keen on these provisions. For instance, they should read Personnel Today, the journal for human resources professionals and practitioners. An article in that journal states that:

“You can have the most sophisticated industrial relations structures, follow all the rules and negotiate ad infinitum, but you will get nowhere if your relationships with staff and their union reps aren’t based on trust”.

It continues:

“This was abundantly clear during the recent civil service industrial action and the narrowly averted strike at British Airways (BA). We see this time and again. An organisation might call us in because it can’t get an agreement signed off, or the process has become too uncomfortable for both sides. What we frequently find when we get there is a climate of mistrust, entrenched ideas, and even outright hostility between union and management, employer and worker.

It doesn’t have to be this way. Look at Co-operative Financial Services, where we recently facilitated a management/union agreement over outsourcing—one of the most sensitive industrial relations issues over the past five years. Similarly at Gillette where, faced with redundancies, the business consulted with employees at the earliest opportunity and asked the staff representatives for alternative proposals, how to approach the situation and what the final redundancy package should contain. Larger, more complex organisations can learn from these successes”.

The UK Government need to learn lessons from the real world. Instead of fighting the ideological battles of the last century, they need to start equipping this country with legislation that fosters and supports good practice, and supports workers and their representatives. The legislation needs to recognise not only that it is right and fair to support the weakest and the most vulnerable but that, ultimately, as the best employers have repeatedly demonstrated, it is good for business too.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

It is a pleasure to be starting what I hope will be the final day under your chairmanship, Sir Alan. Sometimes during this debate it strikes me that the two sides of the Committee are discussing completely different pieces of legislation. Both Opposition parties portray the Bill as one of the most egregious attacks on fundamental human rights since King John, whereas I would describe it as, to borrow a phrase from the previous speaker, a NALGO Bill, in that there is not a lot going on.

What the Government are proposing here is nothing more than a set of provisions that seek to change behaviour within the public sector. After all, the public sector is funded by taxpayers: they go out to work to earn money and they pay taxes, so they have a right to see that money spent responsibly. We hope that, in the light of public scrutiny of the information relating to facility time that public sector employers will be required to publish under clause 12, public sector employers will voluntarily renegotiate their existing facility time arrangements with trade unions and bring their spending on taxpayer-funded facility time under control.

We could, of course, have legislated now for a cap, so the idea that the clause, to cite another famous monarch, is a Henry VIII measure, an egregious attack, is false. We have heard a lot about the constitution in recent hours. We could have legislated for a cap now and no doubt the Opposition would have attacked that. We have taken the more modest route of suggesting reserve powers, which—the clue is in the name—will be kept in reserve and used only as the last resort. Only if transparency shows unacceptable inefficiencies in relevant employer spending on facility time and poor value for money for taxpayers from existing facility time arrangements with trade unions will Ministers set a cap on the time and money spent on facility time.

Amendment 101 would prevent the reserve powers being exercised so as to effect changes to a contract of employment or collective agreement, or limit the relevant employer’s discretion as to the contents of the contract or agreement concerned. The amendment would, in effect, neuter any consequential provision that regulations could make amending or otherwise modifying contracts of employment or collective agreements. As I have said, it is by no means certain that the reserve powers will ever be exercised and, should they be exercised, it is also by no means certain that this would interfere with, or override, existing contractual rights and rights under collective agreements. Most union representatives do not have contractual rights to facility time over and above their statutory rights, which we are not seeking to change.

Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)

What legal advice has the Minister received as to whether this proposal for a cap conflicts with EU law, with TUPE law or with the Information and Consultation of Employees Regulations?

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

We keep going around this merry-go-round. The Government receive a great deal of legal advice from their own officers and sometimes they seek other advice. We do not publish that advice; we are satisfied with the compatibility of all our proposals with all the laws and treaties to which we are signed up. Any cap on facility time will only apply prospectively. It is, on the other hand, possible in theory—though, as I have said, unlikely in practice—that a cap may apply to ongoing, legally-binding relationships; either legally enforceable terms in a collective agreement, or in the contractual rights of individual employees. This is what is flagged in the European convention on human rights memorandum to the Bill. The Government acknowledge, however, that even the potential impacts upon pre-existing contractual arrangements should be fully debated. That is why we considered the affirmative procedure to be necessary to provide the correct level of parliamentary scrutiny.

Before asking hon. Members to withdraw their amendment I want to respond to a question, which is not specific to this amendment, about the devolution settlement. The devolution settlement does not define which individual Ministers in the Government can do things. It defines which areas of policy are devolved and which are not. We have established, and there is general consent—although it might well be wished otherwise—that employment law is not a devolved policy but a reserved policy, and therefore Ministers in the UK Government are entitled to exercise those reserved powers in relation to their responsibilities. That does not imply that, say, the Secretary of State for Health, would be breaching the devolution of health to the Scottish and Welsh Governments by exercising the reserve powers under employment law in the way that we have outlined.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

First, can the Minister confirm that the Scotland Bill has still to reach the end of its parliamentary journey and so the issue of devolving employment law has still to be settled? The Secretary of State for Scotland is considering that matter, as I moved the devolving of employment law in Committee.

Secondly, can he confirm which Government Ministers will have the reserve power to dictate facility time for local government and health in Scotland?

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

It is very clear. First, we are following the Smith commission recommendations. It may be the case that a particular Bill has not yet received Royal Assent and anything is possible, as we are in the process of discovering in our vibrant parliamentary democracy. No doubt, if there is an unexpected result, future legislation will be adjusted to reflect it. The Government’s intention to follow the Smith commission recommendations that employment law remains a reserved policy is very clear. It would be odd if we brought forward a Bill that conflicted with another Bill that we were trying to take through Parliament at the same time by presuming that that Bill was going to fail. We are presuming that the Bill will succeed, because we are following the Smith commission.

I have been clear that Ministers of the Crown can exercise the reserve powers that are reserved to the United Kingdom Government. There is no detailing that this Minister can do this and that Minister can do that. We are all Ministers of the Crown and the reserve powers of the UK Government are clearly set out in the Bill.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

What the Minister is admitting is quite extraordinary. The hon. Member for Glasgow South West mentioned the Scotland Bill. There is also a debate about a draft Wales Bill, which many Members of this House and the Welsh Government consider rolls back the devolution settlement. This seems to be a further rolling back. I draw the Minister’s attention to the comment from the Minister for Public Services who, on hearing the Minister’s claims on Thursday, said:

“This confirms our assertion that the UK Government cannot impose these regressive changes on Wales and any change will require our consent.”

Is the Minister proposing to take the Welsh Government to the Supreme Court if they refuse to implement the Bill?

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

He would say that, wouldn’t he? He is a member of the hon. Gentleman’s party and he disagrees with the Bill. I entirely respect that, but the fact remains that employment law—to which all these provisions relate—is a reserve matter in the Smith commission proposals that all parties and certainly his party signed up to. We are currently taking Bills through Parliament which will implement the Smith commission proposals in full, therefore all our proposals, including proposals on facility time are entirely consistent with the devolution settlement. On that basis, I ask him to withdraw the amendment.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I did not expect the Minister to do anything other than stick to his guns, but I find it extraordinary. There are very serious questions, not only about how the measure cuts across existing conventions and legal treaties and provisions that we are party to. I hope the Government’s legal advice is very good because I suspect there may be a number of significant challenges to the Bill.

I remain astonished at the admission that the executive powers that have been devolved since 1999 to the Welsh and Scottish Governments are being exposed as limited by the Bill. On top of the debates on the Scotland Bill and the draft Wales Bill, that is extremely revealing. Has the Minister had consultations with the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales about this?

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

Does the shadow Minister take the same view as I do, given the Minister’s answer, that there has been no discussion with devolved Administrations as to how this would be enacted? It should require a legislative consent motion—a point that the Minister omitted from his remarks.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

It is certainly the view of the Welsh and Scottish Governments that they may well require a legislative consent motion to be passed in order for the legislation to go forward. The level of consultation at a whole series of stages of the Bill, before and during the process, has been very weak. I think that is reflected in the potential undermining of the clause in many respects by existing provisions to which we are party.

I want to draw the Committee’s attention to a couple of other things that the Minister said. He talked as if this was a “nothing to see here” clause, but it is drafted in an extremely wide-ranging way, stating:

“If a Minister of the Crown considers it appropriate to do so, having regard to information”.

It does not even say that a Minister might exercise the powers if a particular percentage of time is hit. It is basically a matter of saying to a Minister, “Have a look at this information. It doesn’t really matter what it says, but if you fancy intervening in local government or devolved Government across the UK, you can do it if you consider ‘it appropriate’.”

Although this Minister might be clear that the powers should be only reserve powers, I can think of many others who would be happy to use them in an extraordinarily partisan way to attack individual local authorities or devolved Governments that they do not like due to the nature of their political arrangements. They might consider it “appropriate” to use those powers without having any regard to the information provided one way or the other. That is extraordinarily serious, especially given that we are dealing with vital time used for things such as health and safety, helping to find solutions and settlements to disputes and, indeed, helping the public sector to achieve changes in a time of constrained finances and beyond.

I was pleased that the Minister made clear his view that the provisions should apply prospectively rather than retrospectively—I had a little hope for a moment—but he then admitted that they could apply to ongoing legally binding regulations, which is why they are flagged in the ECHR memorandums. I worry that this will cost the Government an awful lot of money—taxpayers’ money—due to lengthy legal proceedings with individuals, local authorities or devolved Governments whose ongoing contractual arrangements are undermined and unwound by the Bill. As I said, I hope that the Minister has deep pockets, because the Government will face significant challenges over the measures and their implementation, which is why I will press the amendment to a Division.

Clause 14 - Investigatory powers etc

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I beg to move amendment 53, in clause 14, page 11, line 7, leave out subsection (2).

Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 69, in schedule 1, page 18, line 4, at end insert—

‘(b) to take representations from the trade union or unions who are the subject of such an investigation”

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

After a lively start to the Committee, we now come to the provisions of the Bill that deal with the certification officer. Although the position of certification officer is familiar to many members of the Committee, it does not normally get a lot of attention, although it will in this debate because of the huge extension and change to its remit proposed by the Government.

When we debated clause 6, we discussed how the certification officer will be given powers to gather information on industrial action taken by trade union members, and how trade unions will be required to publish details of all industrial action and ballots in their annual return to the certification officer. When read in isolation, clause 6 poses a risk to the neutrality of the certification officer in the regulation of trade unions. When read alongside other clauses in the Bill, however, and particularly clause 14, it amounts to a vast extension to the role, remit and powers of that position. The clause will insert into the 1992 Act new schedule A3, which is schedule 1 to this Bill, and give effect to schedule 2, which also amends the 1992 Act. As a result of those changes, trade unions will face significant new obligations and further blue tape, as we have discussed, because they will have to report to the certification officer annually on when industrial action takes place and on political fund expenditure.

The provisions will give the certification officer new, wide-ranging investigatory powers on matters such as the register of members, elections, the political fund and union mergers. For example, if the certification officer thinks that there is good reason to do so, they will have the power to demand the production of any documents relevant to their investigation. Furthermore, if they believe that a union has failed to comply with its duty, they may appoint inspectors who can require the production of documents, as well as the attendance and assistance of any persons believed to have information relevant to the investigation. Failure to comply may lead to the certification officer imposing an enforcement order, which carries punitive sanctions.

The TUC believes that those new powers represent a major new intrusion by the state into union affairs and union members’ rights to privacy. The certification officer will—I find this quite extraordinary—be able to initiate an investigation against a trade union even though they have not received a complaint from a member of that union. That power applies to rules governing elections, political funds and union mergers. The TUC is concerned that the certification officer will be expected to act on complaints and intelligence provided by third parties, including employers. We need to discuss that in detail because it provides wide grounds for fishing expeditions, sabotage actions and engagement by people who are not involved in a dispute, but simply want to cause problems, and to provoke legal proceedings and investigation or action by the certification officer.

We have heard from many people who are concerned about the provisions, and such concerns were reaffirmed in oral evidence by legal experts including Thompsons Solicitors. The United Kingdom’s judicial system is lauded by many around the world, and the Minister should note how its founding principles stand in complete contrast to how the certification officer will be able to act. It is important for the Committee to understand that the certification officer will have the power to bring a complaint against a trade union, to investigate the issue, to decide which witnesses will be called, to cross-examine them, to make a decision on the matter, and then to impose a fine on the union that they have investigated and on which they have adjudicated. I cannot overemphasise the point, which was also made by many of our witnesses, that this is simply not consistent with the principles of natural justice or the founding principles of our legal system, which include many checks and balances, not least the separation of powers.

It is quite extraordinary that this is taking place in an era when we have finally done away with some of the anachronisms of our constitutional arrangements. As the Minister mentioned, we have been having many discussions about this—I am sure that we could have a lengthy one about the other House if we wished to—and the fact is that in recent years we have moved forward. We have separated out the roles, and we no longer have the head of the judiciary sitting as the Chair of proceedings in the other place, as a member of the Executive and of the Cabinet, while that Chamber also acted as the highest court of appeal in this land. That was separated out, and we now have the Supreme Court, the independent Judicial Appointments Commission, a Lord Chancellor who is a member of the Cabinet but not of the other place, and so on and so forth. We have taken that step, and rightfully so, to separate the Executive from the judiciary and to remove the blurring of powers, yet the Government are now effectively merging all those powers together in the role of someone who, I am pretty sure, would not want those powers in the first place, and has had a very limited role until this point.

This seems to be an attempt to politicise a position so that it can be used in a very wide-ranging way, and to interfere fundamentally with the rights of trade union members up and down this country. When the provisions are considered alongside other clauses in the Bill, they do look very sinister. I am sure that the Minister will say, “Oh don’t worry, it will be fine. The certification officer will only engage once in a while if something really terrible happens,” and so on and so forth, yet he is proposing to grant huge, wide-ranging powers which, given the previous clauses we have debated, are deeply sinister. We believe that this clause and the relevant schedules are excessive, so we shall oppose them.

I turn briefly to our amendments. Amendment 53 would prevent the insertion into the 1992 Act of schedule 1, which provides for the certification officer’s new investigatory powers. Amendment 69 would provide that any person investigating a breach of an obligation by a union must allow that union to make representations before any decision is taken, which would be absolutely consistent with the principles of natural justice. I find it extraordinary that it is the certification officer who will decide which witnesses to call and to whom they will speak before making a decision. If we are talking about powers that affect the rights of trade unions, it is crucial that, at the very least, those involved should be allowed to make representations that are relevant to the matter at hand.

Amendment 70 would require any person carrying out an investigation to send the union a copy of the interim report at the same time that it is sent to the certification officer. Again, that is only fair. If such decisions are being made, at the very least the parties to the dispute should receive a copy of the report. Amendment 71 would require that the final report relating to an investigation would also be sent to a relevant union.

I hope that the Minister can explain both the intent behind these wide-ranging changes—we will come on to other parts of the role shortly—and how the process sits with the principles of natural justice in this country. I hope that he will also set out whether there will be any safeguards to prevent the officer from interfering unwillingly, or from being forced to interfere in the affairs of unions without just cause.

Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alan.

The Bill would, if enacted, fundamentally change the role of the certification officer from a neutral arbiter of disputes to a state snooper and enforcer. We have heard the concerns of legal experts, Liberty and others about the implications of these changes for civil liberties, and about the likelihood that they infringe article 6 of the European convention on human rights, on the right to a free trial, and well-established principles in common law on natural justice. No one should sit as a judge in their own cause.

I repeat those concerns today, for the record, in the light of the Government’s changes to the ministerial code, which were quietly sneaked out last Thursday via a ministerial statement in the other place. Until the code was changed last week, it used to refer in its opening paragraphs to an

“overarching duty on ministers to comply with the law including international law and treaty obligations and to uphold the administration of justice and to protect the integrity of public life”.

That duty to comply with international law and treaty obligations, and to uphold the administration of justice, has just been deleted from the ministerial code. It may be a complete coincidence that, at the very point when this Bill is coming under a barrage of expert criticism for its breaches of international law and treaty obligations, the Government have decided to do away with the requirement for Ministers to uphold those laws. Will the Minister explain what possible justification there is for such a change to the standards against which Ministers are held accountable? Why was not Parliament consulted on the change?

In returning to the clause and our amendments, let me be clear that I make no criticism whatsoever of the current incumbent of the post of certification officer. He has served with distinction since 2001; prior to his appointment, he was a partner in a firm of solicitors. He is respected for his impartiality and knowledge. I see from the certification officer’s website that he was last reappointed in 2012, but I do not know for what period. There is no suggestion that he asked for these wider powers, so I have a number of questions for the Minister about what consultation has been carried out with the certification officer about the transformation of his powers. Does he support the changes? What assurances can the Minister give us about the continued independence of certification officers? When will the current certification officer’s term of office expire? What safeguards will cover the appointment of his successor?

Section 254 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 provides:

“The Certification Officer shall be appointed by the Secretary of State after consultation with ACAS.”

The Secretary of State has made his views on trade unions clear, as have Ministers. What confidence can trade unions possibly have in the independence of a certification officer who is appointed by a Government with a clear ideological agenda against trade unions, as is demonstrated by their Bill?

In reply to my question about who asked for the provision, the Minister said that the Government were acting on

“a clear proposal in their manifesto. That clear proposal was to reform the role of the certification officer.”––[Official Report, Trade Union Public Bill Committee, 20 October 2015; c. 259.]

That shows the ideological origin of these proposals. No one knew what that manifesto statement meant, and what we now see goes far beyond any reform by completely recasting the role of the certification officer and transforming it into something entirely different.

Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)

I was interested to see a TV interview this morning in which the former editor of Conservative Home suggested that the provisions with which the Government are having problems in the House of Lords were in their manifesto, but that as they did not expect to win the election, they did not expect to have to enact many things that were in that manifesto. That theory is very interesting, as it is possible that the Government did not expect to have to enact the Bill.

Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)

My hon. Friend makes a valid point. I think that we will see more of that during this Parliament.

What was the inspiration for the changes? The Government propose to give the certification officer a whole armoury of weapons. They will be able to investigate, demand documents, demand explanations and start proceedings, which they themselves will hear, acting as prosecutor and judge, before giving a verdict and delivering a sentence. They will be able to impose a fine and, as we heard in evidence, a quasi-criminal sanction. This is an extraordinary attack on the rule of law.

Certification officers’ powers will be extended into areas that have historically been way outside the remit of the role. The CO's role is to regulate the internal workings of unions and their relationship with their members. That is clear from the existing jurisdictions and procedures involving complaints by union members. The certification officer’s website states that his role is to

“maintain a list of trade unions…ensure compliance with statutory requirements for annual returns…determine complaints concerning trade union elections…rules”

and trade union mergers,

“oversee the political funds”

and

“certify the independence of trade unions”.

That work involves seven staff, and the net cost of the certification officer’s office, according to his most recent annual report of July this year, was £560,232. That represents a 3.7% decrease. Hon. Members might think that that is good value for money, yet the Government want to increase massively bureaucracy, cost and intrusion.

I also note from the annual report that in March 2015, the certification officer’s premises were found to be structurally unsafe. I fear that the proposals in the Bill are equally structurally unsafe. No longer will the CO's role be confined to legitimate complaints that are not ruled out as scandalous, vexatious, hopeless or misconceived. The real purpose of the proposals was revealed in the questions from the hon. Member for Banbury to Professor Ewing in Committee on the afternoon of 15 October. The hon. Lady envisaged the certification officer being required to take action at the behest of

“someone with a legitimate cause for complaint—someone who is affected by strike action…The certification officer himself might be able to take a view that it was appropriate to investigate non-compliance.”––[Official Report, Trade Union Public Bill Committee, 15 October 2015; c. 131, Q352-354.]

Professor Ewing was understandably perplexed by that question, as even the certification officer’s expanded role would not encompass non-compliance with industrial action requirements, yet it is clear that Government Members believe that it should, and that the certification officer should act as a state enforcer who steps in at the behest of any individual to interfere in the workings of trade unions. One can imagine that the Conservative party’s friends in the TaxPayers Alliance will be keen to waste more public money and resources by pestering the certification officer on all manner of issues and seeking enforcement orders on unions, especially in the light of the oppressive reporting requirements on industrial action and political funds.

The situation shows that the Government and Conservative Members are proceeding on the basis of a fundamental misunderstanding of the law and of the role of a certification officer. They are creating a bloated and distorted role that undermines the independence of the office and offends universally accepted legal principles. As a final insult, they will require trade unions to pay for the privilege. Under the Conservatives, we are used to attacks on trade unions, but now we will have an open-ended tax on trade unions—a blank cheque—on which unions will have no say and no control. It is taxation without representation at its most extreme, enabling ideologically motivated complaints to target union resources. It is another direct, politically driven attack on the finances of unions and their capacity to represent their members.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

The hon. Lady is making an excellent speech. Is it not ironic that trade unions are being asked to contribute to the costs of a certification officer, but will be prohibited from contributing to employers administering check-off?

Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)

The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point that shows the inconsistencies throughout the Bill.

I hope that the Government will rethink their proposals on the certification officer. I believe that they should be withdrawn, as they are pernicious, and that the current role of the certification officer, which is widely respected, should be retained. To do otherwise betrays a disdain for independence, impartiality, fairness and, most importantly, the rule of law.

Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)

I rise to support the amendments. The clause will increase substantially the investigation powers of the certification officer, giving him or her powers to investigate the activities of a union even when a complaint has not been received from a member of that union, or from any trade union member at all. Surely the provision completely misses the point of a trade union certification officer’s role. Trade unions are independent organisations whose function is to represent the interests of their members. Whether or not this Government approve of trade unions, the fact remains that they perform a legitimate—some would say essential—role within a free society.

The certification officer performs a vital role, but that role does not and should not involve attacking the rights of trade unions and their members who, after all—apologies to my colleagues from north of the border—are citizens of the United Kingdom. The role of the certification officer is to protect the rights of trade union members by ensuring that unions operate openly, democratically and at all times in the interests of their members. The guidance on the Bill describes the provision as giving the certification officer new enforcement powers so that action can be taken without the need for an application or complaint from a member to be received first. The certification officer will therefore be able to investigate and take enforcement action in a number of areas where that is currently not possible or appropriate. In particular, the guidance states:

“For example the Certification Officer could act upon information or concerns he had received from a third party or on his own initiative.”

That provision is totally unacceptable in a free society.

There are more than 6 million trade union members in the UK. They are all intelligent and fully capable of raising a complaint or concern with the certification officer if they have a problem with their trade union. Why does the certification officer need powers to act when not one single trade union member raises a concern? On whose complaint or on whose authority will the certification officer act? We all know on exactly whose authority that will be. Every scare story and sensationalist headline in the “Daily Wail” or the “Daily Hexpress” will be followed up. Six million members may be completely content and satisfied, but the editor of the “Daily Wail” screaming about Len McCluskey, Sir Paul Kenny or Dave Prentis having the bare-faced audacity to stand up for their members will in future be the subject of a full investigation. That is a total waste of time, and the costs of such investigations will be passed on to the trade unions, which will have no alternative but to pay.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the provision could lead to more malicious complaints being sent to the certification officer? It could lead to fascist organisations making complaints about the funding of anti-racist groups.

Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)

The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point. Once enacted, the provision will give the certification officer the right, or possibly even the duty, to act on any complaint, no matter its source. That is a matter of grave concern. The provision is concerning and an expensive waste of time for trade unions.

As a means of restricting the rights of trade unions and their members, the provision is nothing short of disgraceful, and that has been borne out by the evidence from a whole range of international organisations and lawyers representing many interests. The provision will turn the certification officer’s role from one of protecting trade union members into one that is highly political. They may be forced to react to politicians and newspaper editors, instead of members. Where the certification officer becomes the investigating power, they will become judge and jury over trade unions, their members and officials. Trade union members—the ones we are all concerned about with the Bill—will have to foot the bill while having no easy mechanism to hold the certification officer to account for their actions.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

The Government believe that it is entirely appropriate for a modern regulator to be able to investigate properly when non-compliance with statutory requirements is suspected. The idea is nothing new, as the Electoral Commission and the Charity Commission have investigation powers that can be used proactively when they suspect a breach.

The powers are important because we want the certification officer to be able to determine as quickly and efficiently as possible whether there is a problem so that that can be swiftly remedied. If no problem is found, the quicker the doubts, representations and complaints can be dismissed, which is better for everyone concerned, including unions, employers and the public. The Bill therefore extends the certification officer’s investigatory powers into a number of areas: political funds; union mergers; union leadership elections; and the appointment of a person to, or the failure to remove a person from, a union office when they have been convicted of certain financial offences. To ensure that all the certification officer’s investigatory powers are set out in one place in statute, the Bill also replicates not-yet-commenced investigatory powers in relation to statutory requirements to maintain an accurate register of members’ names and addresses.

We want the certification officer to have investigatory powers in those areas because they relate to statutory requirements that are not only of concern to union members, but of wider relevance to the general public. Members of the public need the assurance that unions are complying with statutory requirements, and they will be given that assurance if the certification officer is able to investigate of his own volition. The investigatory powers will also allow the officer to bring in additional resources or specialist knowledge, should an investigation prove complex and technical. That will give them flexibility when choosing an appropriate inspector, including a third party, to deal with such investigations and then resolve them swiftly and effectively. It will also assist their ability to manage the certification office’s workload, should there be a sudden spike in cases.

The enhanced investigatory powers that we are giving to the certification officer are not entirely new; they are based on those that he already has in relation to a union’s financial affairs. The powers have been exercised fairly and proportionately in the past, and there is no reason to believe that that would not continue to be the case for the certification officer’s enhanced investigatory powers. We believe that the investigatory powers are necessary to ensure that there is robust and effective regulation of trade unions. Effective regulation promotes public confidence.

Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)

The Minister seems to be implying that there is zero chance of the certification officer being a political appointment in future.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

There is no proposal to change the appointment procedure for the certification officer. As the hon. Member for Cardiff Central reminded us, the appointment is made in consultation with ACAS. I remind the Committee that ACAS is currently run by Brendan Barber, the former general secretary of the Trades Union Congress. The idea that we are going to be able to stuff in some political stooge is somewhat far-fetched, like almost everything that Opposition Members have said during the Committee.

On amendments 69, 70 and 71, I am happy to reassure Members that a union will continue to have the opportunity to present its case in written representations to the certification officer before a declaration is made. The officer may also allow the union to make oral representations. That right will also apply before the certification officer issues a financial penalty or conditional financial penalty. In practice, a union may have several chances to reply to any allegations and put forward a defence. Any inspector appointed is likely to make a series of enquiries, which will include dealing with the union directly, before providing their report to the certification officer.

Finally, the union will be able to appeal a certification officer’s decision to the Employment Appeal Tribunal. That will ensure that a union has the opportunity to make further representations to an independent tribunal should it believe a decision made by the certification officer was unlawful. I therefore urge the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the amendments.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I welcome the Minister’s clarification on those last points. Given that, I am content to withdraw the amendments, but I hope that when we discuss the subsequent groups of amendments the Minister will explain what other position in Government has the same range of investigatory, adjudication and enforcement powers in the hands of one individual. It would be useful to understand the sort of comparisons we are looking at. The powers are very wide-ranging and the situation is very blurred.

The Minister has given assurances that the position will remain independent and so on, but he mentioned a spike in cases: perhaps he suspects that there might be such a spike. Opposition Members have expressed concerns about the malfeasance that might be attempted by, for example, a fascist group or someone else who wanted to tie up the certification officer’s time or, indeed, a union’s finances in dealing with a bunch of illegitimate cases in order to disrupt and cause problems. That would be of great concern. I hope that the Minister can explain that in subsequent debates, but for now I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I beg to move amendment 54, in clause 14, page 11, line 9, leave out subsection (3).

Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 55, in clause 14, page 11, line 11, at end insert—

‘(4) For the purposes of this section and the Schedules to which it gives effect complainant and applicant must be—

(a) a member of the union which is the subject of the complaint or application.”

Amendment 66, in schedule 1, page 17, line 7, leave out “or any other person”.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

The Bill needs so many amendments because of its complex nature. A lot of information and important detail is contained in the relevant schedules, and it is necessary to apply the changes that we want to make to all the relevant parts of the Bill. I will go through the amendments briefly without repeating our arguments and overall concerns about this part of the Bill.

Amendment 54 would remove schedule 2, which includes provisions permitting the certification officer to carry out investigations, even though no complaint has been made by a union member. Amendment 55 seeks to ensure that the certification officer only carries out an investigation against a union where a complaint or application has been received either from a union member or an employer who employs union members. The amendment aims to tease out our concern about who might bring investigations or complaints.

Amendment 66 would mean that only the certification officer or his or her staff—and not inspectors—would have the power to require the production of documents from unions during an investigation. This is an important point because the Minister made a case in his comments on the preceding group about a potential spike in cases and the need for additional inspectors to help the certification officers conduct their work. That is a very worrying suggestion. While the Minister might give us assurances about the independence and conduct of the certification officer under the new role, appointing a legion of inspectors under them who have some sort of quasi-judicial role separate from existing legal authorities or police does not reassure me about the way in which they would conduct themselves. Will the Minister explain how he sees their role and what constraints they would operate under?

Amendment 67 would mean that the certification officer could only initiate an investigation if they have received a complaint from a member of the relevant union and if they believe there is evidence that the union has breached one of its statutory duties. The aim is to ensure that the certification officer—or one of the inspectors—does not initiate investigations on their own volition or go on fishing expeditions through union records when they have not received a complaint from union members. Does the Minister believe that the certification officer would be allowed to undertake such investigations without complaints being made by a relevant party, particularly where a complaint from the union member involved has not been received? In my view, certification officers should not have the ability to wander around initiating investigations here, there and everywhere without any just cause.

Amendment 68 would mean that only the certification officer or members of his or her staff could investigate a union. Amendment 56 would mean that the certification officer could only make a declaration that a union has failed to comply with the new reporting requirements if they had received a valid complaint from a member of the relevant union. Again, this is to ensure that the certification officer does not initiate investigations on their own volition if no one has complained. Amendment 57 would prevent a union member who was not a party to the relevant complaint seeking to enforce an order made by the certification officer.

It is a very odd set-up where, on our reading of the legislation, somebody who is not involved at all could look at a decision that has been made and then seek to enforce the order. If that is not the case, can the Minister confirm that on the record? The role of organisations such as the TaxPayers Alliance has already been commented on. Many individuals and organisations would attempt to undertake vexatious expeditions, perhaps on the back of fishing, to attempt to enforce orders against trade unions, which would already have spent quite a lot of their own funds in dealing with the complaints. They would potentially then have to fight attempts by another individual who was not even involved to try to enforce the orders made under this clause and the schedules.

Amendments 58 to 65 would further limit the enforcement powers of the certification officer and define their role rather than that of others who might be involved in potential enforcement. The amendments are designed to tease out various concerns we have about the way in which the legislation is drafted and would be applied in practice. I will be interested to hear what the Minister has to say and whether we seek to press any of the amendments to a vote.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

On amendments 54, 55, 56 and 67, the current enforcement regime is limited. With the exception of statutory duties in relation to financial records and as of next year the membership register, the certification officer may only make inquiries and take action following a complaint from a union member. That is not satisfactory. A modern regulator should be able to take action as appropriate where they suspect that there has been a potential breach of statutory duties or obligations. That is not new: the Electoral Commission and the Charity Commission both have such powers. The powers will enable a certification officer to take enforcement action once he has made inquiries and only if satisfied that there has been a breach of statutory duties or obligations in relation to the new reporting requirements. It would be wrong to restrict the exercise of the certification officer’s powers simply to responding to a complaint as the amendments seek to do, so the Government cannot support them.

Amendment 67 additionally seeks to change the test for the use of the officer’s powers of investigation. Currently, the officer may request documents when it is believed there is good reason to do so and appoint an inspector in circumstances that suggest a trade union has breached a duty. The amendment would require the certification officer reasonably to believe that evidence indicates a breach of duty.

It is important to note that the amendment relates to the test of the use of investigatory powers, not the basis on which the certification offer can make a determination that there has been a breach. Of course, there must be evidence and investigatory powers are about gathering that evidence. The tests we propose for the use of the investigatory powers are essentially the same as those that apply to the officer’s long-standing powers to investigate potential breaches of financial affairs under the 1992 Act. Those tests have been in place for a long time.

The investigatory powers are intended to assist with determining whether there has been a breach. The officer will still have to give the union the chance to make representations and then be satisfied that a breach has actually occurred before taking any enforcement action. If a trade union believes that the certification officer has acted beyond his powers or that the officer has made a mistake in applying the law when reaching a decision, it can still appeal to the Employment Appeal Tribunal. I therefore believe that adequate safeguards are already in place.

I turn to the enforcement of the certification officer’s orders. Amendments 57 to 65 aim to restrict the enforcement of orders to the officer exclusively. In tabling the amendments, the hon. Gentleman seems to be under the impression that we are trying to subcontract enforcement of the officer’s orders to individual union members. I assure him that that is not the intention. We simply seek to reflect the current situation in which complainants and other members of the relevant trade union are entitled to apply to a court to enforce obedience with the officer’s orders. That is nothing new; indeed the 1992 Act is clear on that point.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Will the Minister clarify whether he believes it would be reasonable for someone who was not a party to a dispute—the TaxPayers Alliance, for example—to attempt to enforce an order or be involved in such an enforcement?

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

As I think I just explained, it is currently the case under the 1992 Act that complainants as well as other members of the relevant trade union are entitled to apply to a court to enforce obedience with the certification officer’s orders. If such a body had been a complainant, there had been a process and the certification officer had made an order, under the provisions of the 1992 Act it is entitled to apply for enforcement of that order. There is nothing new in that; that has been in place since 1992 and, needless to say, throughout the period of the previous Labour Government.

Amendments 66 and 68 seek to restrict investigation activities, including the power to demand documents from a trade union, to the certification officer’s own staff. I understand concerns in relation to data protection and confidentiality, but the ability to appoint a third party gives the officer discretion to identify an inspector with specific expertise or simply to bring in additional resource should that be necessary.

Some investigations might be complex, technical and lengthy, so the officer’s permanent team may not have the time to carry them out. The amendment would reduce the officer’s flexibility in choosing an appropriate inspector to appoint, should such a case arise. It is important to note that the ability to authorise or appoint people to assist with investigations in that way is not new. It is exactly the same as the options currently available as part of the certification officer’s long-standing powers to investigate financial affairs. All the Bill does is to provide similar powers of investigation in relation to other potential breaches.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I want to test the Minister a little more on inspectors. He says that there is nothing new, but he spoke previously about a potential spike in cases leading to an increased need for inspectors to help the certification officer carry out their duties. Will he tell the Committee—if he cannot do so now, perhaps he could write to us—how many inspectors would be required, whether there would be a cap on the number of inspectors that the certification officer could appoint, where those costs would be met from, whether there would be any cap on the cost and what sort of qualities would be required in the recruitment and employment of those inspectors by the certification officer?

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I am happy to write to the Committee with that information. I would like to correct something that I said previously, in case I created a false impression. I had not understood that a complainant has to be a member of the trade union. Under the 1992 Act, any member, whether a complainant or another member, can enforce the certification officer’s orders. That is what we propose to replicate for these other powers. Except in the unlikely event that the TaxPayers Alliance decided to join all the trade unions that it wanted to complain about, it is unlikely that it would be in a position to enforce those orders.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

So just to clarify, it would not be appropriate for vexatious individuals outside the dispute, who were not members, to attempt to involve themselves in the enforcement of orders or the investigations.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

That is exactly right. I apologise to the Committee if I created a slightly false impression.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

Just so I am clear, is the Minister indicating that he is amenable to amendment 55, which would provide that the complainant must be a trade union member? He said earlier that he was going away to consider some aspects of picketing, in relation to what could be defined as outside interference.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

No, I am not indicating that, but we believe that the Bill already makes it clear who has the power to complain and who has the power to enforce. Moving on, I have explained that the appointment of investigators is not new; it happens under existing powers regarding the investigation of financial matters, and the Bill simply extends it to other potential breaches. The new investigatory powers contain specific provisions to impose a duty of confidentiality on any inspector that the certification officer appoints to prevent the unauthorised disclosure of personal information about union members. I therefore ask Opposition Members to withdraw the amendment.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

The Minister has provided helpful clarification on a number of points, but I am still not convinced that there are enough safeguards built into the Bill concerning the role and extent of investigations, and the basis on which they are made. He has said that the Bill does not change what was there before, but it will massively extend the powers of the certification officer, so I think it is only right that we look at defining limitations to those investigations, adjudications and enforcements. We may table other amendments at later stages and I would like, at the appropriate point, to press to a vote amendment 67, which would establish limits to ensure that the certification officer does not go on fishing expeditions where they have not received complaints.

Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

New clause 7—Certification Officer—

“For subsections (2) to (4) of section 254 of the 1992 Act substitute—

“(2) The Certification Officer shall be appointed by the Judicial Appointments Commission, and the person appointed shall have expertise in trade union law.

(3) There shall be a Certification Officer for Scotland, equal in status to the Certification Officer in subsections (1) and (2) above.

(4) The Certification Officer for Scotland shall be appointed by the Judicial Appointments Board for Scotland, and the person appointed shall have expertise in trade union law.””

New clause 10—The Certification Officer—

“In section 254 of the 1992 Act (The Certification Officer) for subsections (2), (3) and (4) substitute—

“(2) The Certification Officer shall be appointed by the Judicial Appointments Commission, and the person appointed shall have expertise in trade union law.””

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

The previous two groups of amendments afforded us the opportunity for extensive debate on clause 14, so I do not propose to speak at length about it. It extends the certification officer’s investigatory powers and enables the officer to exercise a number of those powers without a complaint from a trade union member. It is entirely appropriate for a modern regulator to be able to investigate properly where non-compliance is suspected.

I turn to new clauses 7 and 10, and I remind the Committee that the provisions in the Bill, including those that relate to the certification officer, concern employment law and industrial relations matters. They are about how trade unions act and how they should be regulated. Those remain reserved matters for Westminster and are not devolved to Scotland or Wales. In my view, the provisions should apply across the whole of Great Britain, and I do not propose to rehearse devolution arguments here. I note, however, that section 254 of the 1992 Act requires the certification officer to appoint an assistant certification officer for Scotland and allows for the delegation of functions relating to trade unions based in Scotland to that assistant certification officer for Scotland. I believe, therefore, that the 1992 Act sufficiently caters for Scotland’s needs and that appointing a separate certification officer for Scotland is not necessary, especially since the 1992 Act provides a regulatory framework for the whole of Great Britain.

Turning to the proposal that the Judicial Appointments Commission should be responsible for the selection and appointment of the certification officer, I do not agree that the certification officer is a judicial office. Currently, the certification officer has a range of functions—administrative, investigatory, regulatory and adjudicatory —all of which are important aspects of the office. Hon. Members will note that the Bill further increases those investigatory and regulatory functions. It would not be correct, therefore, to describe the certification officer as a judge or other holder of judicial office.

It has been long-standing practice that the certification officer should be a ministerial appointment; a practice not, I believe, challenged or questioned by the previous Labour Government. Such appointments are typically made following Department for Business, Innovation and Skills public appointments practice: a panel, which includes an independent panel member, as well as representatives from the CBI and the TUC, considers applications and makes recommendations to BIS Ministers. In making its recommendations, the panel must only put forward names of candidates that are appointable—that is, who have demonstrated competence to perform the role. It is then for the Secretary of State to make the final decision on whom to appoint. This is nothing new and certainly nothing unusual.

I am keen to stress that the certification officer is, and always has been, independent of Governments of whichever party. Ministers have never directed what the certification officer does. Indeed, no one has suggested otherwise since 1975, when the office was set up. The certification officer is appointed by the Secretary of State after consultation with ACAS, but as his annual report, deposited in the Libraries of both Houses of Parliament, points out, he is independent from both ACAS and the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. As the Committee knows, we want to enhance the role of the certification officer to ensure robust and effective regulation of trade unions. We want to modernise this regulatory role to bring it up to date with a new, modern system for industrial relations. Our changes increase the regulatory aspects of the role. The Government do not therefore think that appointment of the certification officer by the Judicial Appointments Commission is appropriate.

Turning to the proposal that the certification officer should have expertise in trade union law, I agree, of course, that the certification officer should have knowledge of trade union law, but I do not believe that it is necessary to prescribe this in legislation, primarily because to do so risks limiting the range of candidates that could perform the role in future. In any case, the recruitment panel will only recommend to Ministers appointable candidates for the role of certification officer and those candidates will need to demonstrate to the panel that they have full competency for the role. For these reasons, I ask hon. Members to withdraw the new clauses.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I am somewhat bemused by the Minister’s comment that the certification officer is not a judicial officer. He has explained the wide powers that the certification officer has, so I am very interested to know what positions the Government consider to be comparable. Most people would consider the certification officer to have a quasi-judicial role, at the very least, and therefore we need some very strict controls about how it is regulated. The crucial point is that we are moving well beyond the original role set out for the certification officer. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central said, this is not to comment on the suitability or the work that has been done by the current certification officer, who, from all my experience and that of the stakeholders I have engaged with, has done a very good job, but this is a complete change in the role and its powers. That change requires a fresh look at how the certification officer is appointed.

Our new clause would provide that the certification officer in Great Britain would be appointed by the Judicial Appointments Commission. Currently, as we have heard, the role is appointed by the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills in consultation with ACAS. The Minister went through the process of shortlisting and so on, and obviously, it is great that a number of stakeholders are involved. However, of course the final decision rests with the Secretary of State and that, again, gives wide latitude to a Secretary of State to veto or to appoint someone partisan or political. Given the nature of the rest of the Bill, many of us might strongly suspect that that would happen.

The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills of course regularly consults many different stakeholders, but as we saw in debates about the steel industry he seems willing to ignore all the advice and carry on regardless. I have no faith as to whether things would continue in that vein, when I consider the intent and purpose of the Bill.

We all agree that the certification officer should be independent of Government and required to have expertise in trade union law rather than just knowledge of it. Demonstrable knowledge could be an ability to list by rote the clauses of the Bill. Someone who takes such a wide range of powers needs a detailed understanding of the provisions. The 1992 Act does not specify the qualifications required, but the Bill gives the certification officer extensive new powers and remits, and it is only reasonable to expect the person appointed to have expertise in that regard, particularly given the various aspects of the role.

If the Minister intends to reject the new clause, will he explain what consultation, as a minimum, he would expect for the new role? Will things just carry on as they do under the old system, with the limited involvement of the TUC, CBI and so on at the shortlisting stage, or does he envisage a wider range of people being involved? Will he give wider assurances about the type of qualifications and other requirements? Given the nature of the proposed role, we believe that the certification officer should be appointed by the Judicial Appointments Commission—that is only right—and that there should be a clear requirement for expertise in trade union law.

New clause 7 is essentially similar to our new clause in its purpose; I understand why the hon. Member for Glasgow South West and his hon. Friends have tabled it, in relation to Scotland. As I have said before in similar debates, we want the fairest settlement in the Bill for workers and trade union members across the UK, and I hope the hon. Gentleman understands that that is what we intend with our new clause. It would deal with the whole of Great Britain, not just Scotland.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

As the shadow Minister said, the new clauses really deal with who should be the certification officer. If the powers are being enhanced, the new role needs to be reconsidered, because—the shadow Minister is correct—it is at the very least quasi-judicial. The aim of new clause 7 is to ensure that the holder of the post has adequate qualifications and expertise.

The Minister has said he expects the person appointed to have expertise in trade union law, but his successors may not. An adequate provision would make it clear, as the new clause does, that the certification officer should have expertise in trade union law. It cannot be someone we met down the pub, who may be able to recite all the clauses of the Bill. It needs to be someone of a very high standard, with expertise in trade union law, who knows the intricacies of that law. More importantly, the person should be independent of Government, and that is why it is appropriate in the circumstances to involve the Judicial Appointments Commission.

The new clause has another purpose. As the Minister pointed out, there is currently an assistant for Scotland. The enhanced role will have an impact on elections where they are now devolved to the Scottish Parliament, in terms of Scottish parliamentary and local government elections. If there are questions about election funding, that will be a Scottish issue and we believe it would require a certification officer in Scotland to consider it.

Also, there are differences between the legal jurisdictions. There is different civil and criminal law in Scotland, and we believe the new provisions about the certification officer can only impinge on the consideration of civil and criminal law in relation to complaints and so on. The effect of the certification officer provisions will be that Scotland will need not an assistant but a certification officer of equal status to the certification officer for Great Britain.

We have no issue with new clause 10 and we will support it in a vote, but we are seeking a Scottish provision of equal status due to the impacts that the new role of a certification officer will have.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

We do not accept that the Bill would dramatically expand the certification officer’s role. We are simply replicating the investigatory powers that he already has in relation to financial matters with regard to the new matters that he will have the power to investigate, so we certainly do not see any basis for changing how he is appointed. Previous Governments who were happy for him to have those investigatory and regulatory powers in relation to financial matters thought the arrangements for appointment were adequate. I commend clause 14 to the Committee and ask Members to resist new clauses 7 and 10.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

To clarify, we will press new clause 10 to a vote at the appropriate point.

Schedule 1 - Certification Officer: investigatory powers: Schedule to be inserted into the 1992 Act

Schedule 2 - Certification Officer: exercise of powers without application etc

Clause 15 - Enforcement by Certification Officer of new annual return requirements

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I beg to move amendment 94, in clause 15, page 12, line 23, at end insert—

‘( ) In section 45D of that Act (appeals from Certification Officer), after “31” insert “, 32ZC”.’

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I appreciate the comments the Minister made. Given that this is a rare chink in the cloud that allows trade unions some rights to challenge use of the draconian powers provided for elsewhere in the Bill and in the clause, I do not intend to oppose the amendment. However, we will oppose the clause to which it relates.

Clause 16 - Further powers of Certification Officer where enforcement order made

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I want to ask the Minister a few questions. The clause inserts new section 32ZC into the 1992 Act and gives effect to schedule 3, which we will come to shortly. The certification officer will have a new power to impose financial penalties on unions when an enforcement order has been made, and the Government will have the power to set the level of penalties in regulations. Paragraph 6 of schedule 3 states that penalties will range from £200 to £20,000. The clause also extends the ability of individual members of a union to enforce the certification officer’s orders even if that order was no concern of theirs.

Will the Minister explain a little more about the penalties—how they will be applied, the different gradings and so on? Do the Government plan to increase the limit at any point? How often does he expect them to be used in the different categories? What size of penalty does he expect to be applied?

I also want clarification on the individual member’s ability to enforce orders. Thankfully, we had clarification from the Minister that individuals outside a dispute cannot be involved, but there is a possibility that members of the union that was party to the dispute who were not personally involved could attempt to enforce orders.

The Committee might wonder why I am worried about that, but there are circumstances in which a couple of individuals who are members of a union may be involved in malicious activity and attempt to undermine others who have taken a wider, collective decision that was endorsed by other members. I want to understand who can be involved in attempting to enforce a certification officer’s orders. Can that be any member of the union involved whether or not they were personally involved in the case? I would be grateful if the Minister would clarify those points.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

New schedule A4 to the 1992 Act will enable the certification officer to issue financial penalties or conditional financial penalties in those areas where he has existing powers to issue declarations and enforcement orders, which will provide a consistent approach. He will also be able to issue those penalties for breaches of the new annual reporting requirements on trade unions in relation to details of industrial action and political fund expenditure. Those areas are all listed in paragraph 1 of the new schedule.

Paragraph 4 of the new schedule requires the certification officer, before issuing a penalty, to provide written reasons for his decision, which will allow the union to know why the certification officer has found against it. The union will also have the opportunity to make written representations and may be given the opportunity to make oral representations.

Paragraph 5 of the new schedule provides for appeals to the Employment Appeal Tribunal based on an error of fact or a point of law, or on the grounds that the decision to impose a financial penalty or conditional financial penalty is unreasonable. The appeal grounds are similar to those provided for in other financial penalty regimes and will ensure that a wrong decision can be challenged.

Paragraph 3 of the new schedule provides for enforcement of conditional penalties. In cases of non-compliance, the certification officer will issue a further order requiring that a penalty be paid immediately or by a certain date. Where a union has provided evidence of partial compliance, the certification officer will have flexibility to reduce the amount of the penalty should he choose to do so. That will encourage unions to comply with conditional penalty orders while punishing those that take no steps towards compliance.

The hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth asked whether any member of the union about which a complaint has been made, including members who were not themselves complainants, can apply to court for the enforcement of the certification officer’s orders. My understanding is that currently, under the 1992 Act, it is possible for any union member to apply for enforcement of such orders, but I am happy to write to him with the full detail if that is helpful.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Are there any cumulative limits on the number of financial penalties or the total amount that can be imposed on any one subject in the legislation within a year, or could numerous orders of up to £20,000 be imposed, with no limit on the overall amount sought? Obviously, due to vexatious actions or fishing expeditions and so on, a union could be subject to hundreds of thousands of pounds in penalties in a year as a result of investigations, without any kind of limit.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

There is no limit, but as the hon. Gentleman points out, if a union is subject to vexatious complaints, the certification officer will not find in favour of the complainant or impose a penalty. As I have explained, the union will have every opportunity to appeal any penalty imposed improperly. Although I understand the drift of his concern, the provisions already protect unions from vexatious complaints that might lead to an accumulation of penalties.

Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)

There is, of course, a downside for the trade unions even in that situation, in that it is the trade union that will have to pay for the investigation.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

We will move on, I believe, to the question of how the costs of the certification officer will be paid for. It is absolutely right that the Government are proposing that, in common with other regulators, the certification officer will be paid for by the regulated. However, again, if vexatious complaints are made, we have every reason to expect the certification officer, who has all the powers necessary to do so, simply to dismiss them and not to pursue them to the detriment of union finances.

On that basis, I commend the clause to the Committee.

Schedule 3 - Certification Officer: power to impose financial penalties: Schedule to be inserted into the 1992 Act

Clause 17 - Power to impose levy

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I beg to move amendment 95, in clause 17, page 14, line 1, leave out

“(b) payments made by ACAS under section 254(6),”.

Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)

With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendment 97.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

Clause 17 inserts new section 257A into the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, to provide the Secretary of State with the power to make regulations requiring the certification officer to charge a levy on trade unions and employer associations to recover the cost of the certification officer’s expenses. New subsection 257A(3) sets out the sorts of expenses that the regulations might specify are recoverable by the levy; this includes payments made by ACAS under section 256(6).

The payments under section 256(6) were intended to enable the certification officer to make payments towards expenditure in connection with secret ballots. However, the provision to make those payments—section 115 of the 1992 Act—was repealed more than 20 years ago by the Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Act 1993. That in turn means that section 256(6) is not required—in fact, it should have been repealed when section 115 was repealed back in 1993. Amendment 95 corrects that oversight and repeals section 256(6). Amendment 97 completes that tidying up. It removes reference to those sums being included in the expenses of the certification officer that the regulations could require the levy to recover. I commend Government amendment 95 to the Committee.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I accept the Minister’s point about the two Government amendments being technical in nature, so we do not intend to oppose them, but I do want to explain briefly our concern about clause 17.

As we have discussed at length, the Bill imposes significant new administrative obligations on unions in a range of matters. They face a major increase in regulation that the Government simply would not apply to other sectors in society—certainly not to business. They will also be expected to pay for the pleasure of the enforcement of the new obligations.

As discussed, clause 17 contains a power permitting the Government to levy a charge on trade unions to cover the running costs of the certification officer, which currently stand at approximately £1 million but are expected to rise. I suspect that they will rise under the new regime, given the wide expansion of powers. The levy looks set to apply to employers’ organisations—I hope the Minister can clarify this point—including the Engineering Employers’ Federation, the Electrical Contractors’ Association, the Federation of Master Builders and the National Farmers Union. The measure will apply not only to trade unions but to a whole range of employers’ organisations.

We understand that the Government are consulting on how much should be levied, but, like on so many areas of the Bill, they have not published their consultation responses, so we are in the dark on this matter. We are expected to vote on the Bill without knowing what will happen. Will the Minister explain a little more about how the levy is expected to work, whom it will be levied on and whether it will apply to the organisations I mentioned? What level can we expect it to be at? Will it rise in the future? What provisions will there be to review it? How will it be put into operation? It is not acceptable that a Committee considering matters of this nature is making its decisions largely in the dark.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

Trade unions and employer associations, like many other organisations, should be regulated. Proportionate regulation helps to improve confidence in the way such institutions are run, which can only be a good thing. It is only fair that the cost of such regulation falls not on the taxpayer, but on those who are regulated. I note that the previous Labour Government introduced an almost identical provision, which I believe all members of the Committee support, in the financial services industry, whereby the costs of financial regulation and the regulator fall on the members of that industry.

James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)

I ran a small financial services business and remember paying high fees, which went up steeply, to the Financial Services Authority. I recall no consultation, about which we were unhappy, but the key issue was that the regulator failed rather substantially in the credit crunch. If such payments are made here, can we have assurances that we will have a good quality system for all those affected?

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I am certainly trying my best to ensure that the regulation of trade unions is more effective than the regulation of the financial services industry preceding the 2008 crash. I do not think that the risks are as great, and I have been the first to point out that it is unlikely that the trade unions, which mostly do an excellent job, will crash the economy in the way that the under-regulated financial services industry did under the previous Labour Government. Sir Alan, I think you are going to say that I am moving away from the point, so I will return to it.

The clause enables regulations to be made so that the certification officer can charge a levy on trade unions and employer associations.

Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Will the Minister give way?

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I am going to make some progress.

It is important to understand that employer associations are also subject to the levy. The Bill does not prescribe the amount of the levy because the certification officer is independent. It is for the certification officer to decide each year how much they need to charge to cover the costs of performing their functions. We have taken the approach of providing a regulation-making power, rather than setting out in the Bill exactly how the certification officer is to determine the amount of the levy, because the Bill expands the certification officer’s role. It is only once this new expanded role is established that it will be possible to determine precisely how the regime should work. Having said that, we also recognise that Parliament and those directly affected rightly expect to see how the regime will work when Parliament is being asked to agree the detail of the legislation. That is why the Bill sets out specific parameters for the content of the regulations. It is also why the regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure. The clause also requires consultation before any regulations are made.

To meet our objective of cost recovery, the levy must be enough to cover the cost of the certification officer’s functions, but it cannot be any more than the certification officer needs. The certification officer cannot make a profit from their activities, nor undertake spurious activities to generate funds. That is only right as the certification officer is an independent public appointment and not a commercial enterprise.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I can understand the need for the certification officer to have a role in identifying the costs of their operations, but the Minister and the Government must have a ballpark figure. Are we expecting a doubling of the £1 million figure or an increase by a factor of 10? What sort of ballpark are we in? The people affected by the levy need to have an idea, remembering that it will apply not only to trade unions, but to the employer associations that I have listed.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

The hon. Gentleman is entitled to speculate on any figure he likes, but we are going to leave it to the independent certification officer to assess the additional requirement and to set an appropriate levy.

We recognise that trade unions can vary greatly in size and that employers associations are often small, meaning that the size of the regulatory functions provided by the certification officer to such organisations may vary greatly. Smaller unions and employer associations may require less of the certification officer’s time and resources.

Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I am pleased to hear that clarification about employers organisations. Will the Minister tell us whether federated employers organisations, such as the CBI, will be covered by the measure?

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

My understanding is that federated employers associations will not be covered, but all other employers associations will be.

We want to be able to consider whether organisations that use more of the certification officer’s time should bear more of the cost. We will need to consult before determining whether that is the right way to proceed and will only take that approach if we find during consultation that it costs more for the certification officer to regulate larger organisations that it does for smaller ones.

Let me conclude by summarising the safeguards in the Bill on the way the levy is to operate: the amount of the levy will be limited to covering the cost of the certification officer functions; ACAS, unions and employer associations will be consulted before regulations are made; the regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure, allowing a full debate in Parliament before they are brought into force; and the certification officer will be required to report annually on the amount levied and how that was determined, which will be published and laid before both Houses, ensuring transparency.

Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)

Order. Mr Stephens asked a question about EVEL earlier on, so I want to clarify that the EVEL procedures are invoked by the Speaker. The certification process takes place before the Second Reading of Bills or before something is considered as a statutory instrument, so Bills in Committee are not eligible for the use of EVEL procedures. I hope that that is helpful.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I want to clarify a point that was made just before we adjourned this morning. The hon. Member for Cardiff Central asked whether federated employer associations such as the CBI will be covered by the levy, and I said no. Indeed, it was narrowly correct to say that because the CBI will not be caught by the levy, but it may help the Committee if I provide a little more context to my answer.

Federated employer associations would be covered by the levy, provided that they meet the statutory definition in the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992. The certification officer keeps a list of employer associations that have asked to be listed, as well as a schedule of those that have not applied to be listed but that the certification officer considers meet the statutory definition. The CBI is not listed, so as it stands the levy will not cover an organisation of that type. It will continue to be left to the certification officer to decide who meets the definition in the future. I will be happy to write to the hon. Lady if she would like further clarification on the statutory definitions in the 1992 Act and how they apply in practice.

Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I am grateful to the Minister. If he could write to me, that would be good.

Clause 18 - Minor and consequential amendments

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for our last sitting, Sir Edward. I appreciate that this may be a technical clause. It brings into effect a schedule that contains many minor and consequential amendments. Will the Minister provide a little detail about those amendments, and whether there is any substantive change to Government policy in the clause?

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

Nothing would give me greater pleasure.

Clause 18 gives effect to schedule 4, which, as the hon. Gentleman says, provides minor and consequential amendments to existing legislation to take account of the changes to legislation brought in by the Bill. Specifically, the schedule makes amendments to the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 concerning the arrangements for the register of members’ names and addresses; minor amendments to accommodate the changes that provide for an opt-in to the political fund, so that where there are references to members not being exempt there is a reference to members contributing; minor changes to the arrangements to ballots, including making clear that spoiled ballot papers are to be included in the count of those voting for the purpose of the 50% threshold; and minor changes to provisions to cross-refer to the additional requirements in the voting paper in clause 4.

The schedule also makes clear, by amendments to the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1995, that the Northern Irish legislation will continue to apply to Northern Irish members of unions in Great Britain. It updates the language, so a decision to opt in under the Northern Irish legislation will be treated as a decision to opt in under the new provisions of the 1992 Act.

The schedule also amends the trade union administration aspects of the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Act 2014, which in turn also amends the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992.

Finally, there are other minor repeals to other employment legislation for provisions no longer needed as a result of the Bill’s provisions.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Minister for those clarifications. I am sure that, as he suggested, a number of the elements are simply technical, but as several of them relate to facilitating the passage of the rest of the Bill and the gagging Act, which the Minister referred to using its formal name, we do not want to support them.

Schedule 4 - Minor and consequential amendments

Clause 19 - Financial provision

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I would not normally seek to speak on the latter clauses of a Bill, but I rise to make a point and to give the Minister one last chance to answer. The Bill’s provisions are clearly extensive, and a number of them are on extraordinarily shaky legal grounds. Will the Minister clarify whether the Government have set aside funds to consider any legal challenges that might arise once the legislation comes into force?

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I think I have pretty much answered that question already. We have not made a specific provision for public expenditure. Indeed, we expect public expenditure to be reduced by the introduction of the levy, which will ensure that the costs of the certification officer that currently fall on the taxpayer will fall on those regulated—the employer associations and trade unions.

Clause 20 - Extent

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Again, I would not normally rise to speak on such a clause, but I want to do so to underline the very many points that have been made about the potential conflict with the devolution settlement. Much of the Bill makes changes to the 1992 Act, which came into effect long before the advent of devolution in Scotland and Wales and, indeed, London, and before the increased devolution to local authorities and mayors throughout England. I merely take this opportunity to underline that point and to give the Minister another chance to say when he plans to meet his cabinet colleagues the Secretaries of State for Wales and for Scotland and when he plans to engage in discussions with the First Ministers of Scotland and Wales and the leaders of devolved local authorities across England to discuss the concerns that have been raised and whether the Bill should be amended further on Report or, indeed, in the other place.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

We are huge respecters of the devolution arrangements, which is why we do not propose that the Bill should apply to Northern Ireland, except in a very small measure. The position is clear: such matters are handled differently in Northern Ireland. We are equally respectful of the devolution settlement with Scotland and Wales, which is why all the provisions of the Bill apply to Scotland and Wales. They relate to employment law, which is a reserved matter.

Clause 21 - Commencement

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yet again, it is unusual for me to speak on such a clause, but it is important that I do because I want to give the Minister a chance to enlighten us as to when we might see some regulations under statutory instrument coming forward under the Bill. He refused to be drawn on this matter earlier in Committee, but the trade union community and many stakeholders in the Bill are hearing rumours circulating—the place is awash with rumours—that various draft regulations might be published in the very near future. Does the Minister plan to introduce draft or formal regulations within the next couple of weeks, the next month, the next six months or the next year? Perhaps he can give us an idea of the ballpark.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I am happy to reassure the hon. Gentleman that we will bring forward draft regulations when they are good and ready.

Clause 22 - Short title

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Briefly, I can think of many other names that would be suitable for this Bill, but I am sure that you, Sir Edward, would rule them out as unparliamentary. We intend to go on the way we have done throughout the Bill, and we will oppose this clause as well.

New Clause 11 - Prohibition on deduction of union subscriptions from wages in public sector

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

With this, it will be convenient to consider amendment (a) to the new clause, line 43 at end insert—

“(10) The provisions in this section shall only apply with the consent of the Scottish Government, Welsh Government, Northern Ireland Executive, the Mayor of London and local authorities in England in their areas of responsibility.”

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I also wish to resist the amendment to the clause tabled on behalf of the Scottish National Party. My right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General announced in August that the Government intended to end the outdated practice of check-off in the public sector. New clause 11 gives effect to that intention. It would prohibit relevant public sector employers in due course from deducting trade union subscriptions from workers’ wages and sending these to the unions concerned.

Check-off is anachronistic. It dates from a time when most workers did not have bank accounts and direct debit payments did not exist. Nowadays all public sector workers have bank accounts, and trade union subscriptions can very easily be paid by direct debit. Trade unions themselves agree that filling in a direct debit form is a simple and straightforward task. Even the PCS union’s own website currently promotes direct debit, saying:

“It’s quick and easy to sign up for direct debit—you can do it online in a couple of minutes. You just need your membership or National Insurance number and bank account number and sort code”.

Direct debits can even be set up on mobile phones. In addition to its convenience, this way of making payments gives employees the freedom to set up the direct debit arrangement with the trade union of their choice, as well as consumer protection under the direct debit guarantee. Such protection was withdrawn for check-off 17 years ago.

In any case, there is just no need for the relationship between a trade union and its members to be intermediated by the members’ employer. Trade unions should have a direct subscription relationship with their members, using direct debit like any other modern member-based organisation. The collection and administration of union subscriptions is no business of the employer. It should be a matter for a union and its members to arrange between themselves.

At a time of fiscal consolidation, taxpayer-funded employers providing the important public services that we all rely on should no longer carry unnecessary burdens. These include the burden of administering check-off on behalf of those trade unions that have not yet modernised their subscription arrangements. This in turn puts employers at risk of an employment tribunal claim if they make a mistake when deducting union dues. Where an employer provides a check-off service, it puts itself under a legal obligation to do so in a particular way under the 1992 Act. An employer that makes a mistake can be taken to an employment tribunal. That should not be at the expense of the taxpayer when it could so easily be avoided by making alternative arrangements to check-off.

The majority of civil service employers have already decided to remove check-off, and trade unions affected by those decisions have been successful in making alternative arrangements for their members to pay their subscriptions by other means. The vast majority of their members have switched to direct debit.

It is important to emphasise that we are not planning to spring this change on public sector employers and trade unions overnight. We recognise that affected unions will need time to implement the change and get their members to switch to direct debit. They have been on notice since we announced the provision in August.

Furthermore, the change will be brought about by affirmative regulations that will build in a reasonable transitional period. That will allow affected unions and their members time to put in place alternative arrangements to check-off, and will be sufficient to ensure that no undue disruption is caused to the unions or their members.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

It is good to be on to the new clauses. It is intriguing that the Minister was talking about using mobile phones and the ease of doing things online—almost the very arguments that could be used in support of e-balloting and the methods connected to it—but he has chosen to apply those methods in other measures. That emphasises the debate we have been having throughout the Bill.

New clause 11 would prevent all public sector employers from deducting trade union subscriptions via payroll and would mark the end of what is called check-off. I believe that the Government are deliberately targeting trade union finances by making it harder for individuals, including lower paid workers and many women in particular, to get access to trade union representation in the workplace. That is particularly true for dispersed workforces. I was struck by the evidence I received from the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, which works in the retail sector, about the many people working in small shops and retail outlets throughout the country who find check-off a convenient way to have their payments taken, without a complicated process. They will struggle because of the new clause.

The move is almost universally opposed, save for the Government and the TaxPayers Alliance, and we all know that the basis of the oral evidence they gave was very flimsy. It is all rather ironic when we consider that the Government’s claim that the proposal will save taxpayers’ money is, in fact, a red herring, given that many trade unions already cover the cost of check-off services. In some cases, the fees generated in the process and charged by Government employers for check-off provision generate a net gain for the public finances. There seems to be no sense at all in the proposals.

In pressing ahead in spite of the critics, the Government have failed to secure any substantial employer support for their proposals, as far as I am aware. Indeed, many employers, including employers in local government and the health sector—as we have heard with respect to the Scottish and Welsh Governments as well—have expressed concern that the removal of check-off arrangements could undermine constructive relations between managers and unions, which are vital to the quality of public services. Is that any wonder, when employers and trade unions were not even consulted properly?

The proposals have been introduced without a proper consultation process, engagement with the unions, or an assessment of the impact on employment relations. The proposals were not included in the Conservative party manifesto, Her Majesty’s Gracious Speech, or the briefing accompanying the speech, although it would have been easy for the Government to do that. The Minister has said that everyone has long been aware of the change and has had time to prepare, but if the Government are so clear about it, why did they not make it clear when they first suggested introducing the Bill? There was no reference to the proposal in any of the BIS consultations or impact assessments that accompanied the publication of the Bill. Instead, the Government announced the plans on 6 August 2015, and published the new clause introducing the ban, which we are discussing now, only a matter of days ago.

That does not strike me as the most transparent, engaging or consultative process. Unfortunately that has been the hallmark of the Bill from start to finish. To date, the Government have failed to publish any evidence justifying the introduction of the ban, or any assessment of the potential impact of the proposal on those who would be affected.

There are also huge implementation issues. Transferring millions of members on to direct debit would create significant organisational challenges for many trade unions, particularly those operating in dispersed work forces. It will therefore be vital, if this goes ahead, that trade unions are provided with ample time to transfer members on to direct debits. We have talked about the potential unwinding of collective agreements and employment contracts in many sectors, but time will also need to be provided for employers and trade unions to renegotiate existing collective agreements, which often include aspects relating to the check-off provision.

I know many are concerned that no timetable for the introduction has been specified in the amendment. The Minister said he wants to allow a reasonable period and I hope that when he gets to his feet he will specify broadly what he has in mind. The explanatory note similarly suggests that a reasonable period will be provided, but that has no legal effect.

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

As I was listening to my hon. Friend’s excellent speech, I was thinking about potential ramifications of this and I would be interested to hear the Minister’s response. For example, if an accountant working for a council is a chartered accountant paying annual fees, does that come out of his pay packet in certain circumstances, in much the same way as check-off does? If a nurse pays annual fees to be registered as a nurse, does that come out of their pay packet as well?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, one we discussed during the oral evidence sessions as well as here: there are many things that are deducted in the same format as check-off. We as MPs are allowed to make salary deductions for various things, from repayments of loans to charitable donations. Again, this is one rule for trade unions and another for everybody else and it is simply not acceptable. I hope the Minister will provide an explanation and more detail on that provision and a definition of what is a “reasonable” transition period.

The Minister will be aware of the specific concerns outlined by the TUC that trade unions will be required to sign members up to direct debit payments at the same time as needing to comply with the other significant legislative changes in the Bill. Those include encouraging millions of members within just three months to opt in to the union’s political fund, even though they have voluntarily contributed for many years, gathering additional information for the certification officer and complying with the oodles and oodles of red tape and blue tape that are being put in by the Bill, let alone previous provisions such as those introduced by the gagging Act. In these circumstances, the need for significant time to allow unions to move their members on to direct debit is very clear.

As I have argued throughout this Bill, the Government are not pursuing a plan for modern and forward-looking industrial relations. They are trying to turn the clock back and offering solutions to the problems of yesteryear.

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

I have just thought of another question. This goes back to my industrial background working with predominantly female workforces in the textile industry. Many did not have bank accounts, but were trade union members and worked on piecework rates. How will they be affected if they are disfranchised, rendered unable to join a trade union at all because they do not have a bank account?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

That is an excellent point on which I would like to hear from the Minister. Whether we like it or not, many people, particularly on low incomes or starting out on their careers, do not have bank accounts. What provision will be made for them? If they do not have a bank account, how will they be able to make these payments?

As I have said, in reality, deductions from payroll are a very common way that employers across the public and private sectors help employees to manage their finances. I mentioned examples that apply to us as Members of Parliament, but we often see things such as childcare, travel, bike loans or computer payments made through similar payroll deductions. The proposed ban on check-off for union subscriptions will affect millions who currently choose to do that through their wages. We oppose new clause 11 and call on the Government to withdraw it. At the very least, I hope that the Minister will engage with employers and trade unions in the period between Committee and Report, so that we can have some clarity when he comes back to the House on how long the transition and implementation period will be and whether accommodations can be made.

Amendment (a) enjoys the formal support of myself and my hon. Friends the Members for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) and for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray). It is an SNP amendment on securing active consent from the different parts of the UK before the ban on check-off arrangements can apply elsewhere. Were the hon. Member for Glasgow South West to push this to a vote he would certainly have our support.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward.

The purpose of our amendment is to require consent from public bodies, but I wish to make some remarks about the role of check-off and the principles behind it. Our first concern is the impact on collective bargaining arrangements. An employee can pay bills through salary deductions, including council tax and rent. They can also make charitable donations—for example, in Glasgow employees can make trade union charitable donations to organisations such as Action For Southern Africa or Community HEART. Staff association subscriptions, too, can be taken off as a salary deduction. Under these proposals, however, in a collective bargaining arena where there is a staff association and a trade union or unions, the staff association would be allowed check-off, but the trade unions would not. That shows an extraordinary bias towards staff associations. I asked the Minister for the Cabinet Office about this in the evidence sessions and was advised that a staff association is internal and a trade union is not. What remarkable ignorance of how a workplace operates. Surely both organisations are internal, and employees have made a choice about who is to bargain on their behalf?

In our view, new clause 11 is designed to interfere with and unsettle those collective bargaining arrangements. I ask the Minister what is to stop a trade union reclassifying itself to become a staff association. Is that how they will be able to get round the Bill? We are asked to believe that these proposals are modernisation. In reality, they are a 19th century solution in a 21st-century world. If allowing other deductions is modernisation, then why is check-off to trade unions not modernisation? It is a fanciful and quaint notion.

We are also concerned about the legal risks that public sector employers will face in relation to these arrangements. In a recent court case, Mr Justice Supperstone said:

“I am not impressed by the argument that check off is only or primarily for the benefit of the union as such, rather than for its members in their capacity as employees. It seems to me that there is a real benefit to employees in the administrative convenience of not having to make their own arrangements for payments each month, or having to set up a direct debit or standing order and then change it or replace it from time to time as may be necessary”.

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. Obviously, it depends on the workplace. If someone is a private sector construction worker or employed in an industry working shift patterns which are not annualised, pay will fluctuate depending upon production targets and what the market is doing. Inevitably, as a result their union subs will change, because most unions have a redistributive model for their subscriptions.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

That is an excellent point. Trade unions will be denied money on that basis, as in the very example given by the hon. Gentleman. Another concern is that what we are seeing here is a situation where a voluntary agreement between a public sector body and a trade union is effectively to be banned by the state.

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the consequences—unintended, I am sure—of removing check-off will be that if there is, for instance, an industrial action ballot of a public sector workforce of many tens of thousands, with people working all over the place, it will be even more difficult for people to agree on what the bargaining unit is in that case. If people pay by direct debit—as many trade union members already do—then when they change their place of work, if they are still working for the same employer, their place of work will not necessarily notify their trade union.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

That is right, and it is an excellent point. There is also the other example of someone who works for a large employer who may have two different jobs for that employer—perhaps part time in two departments. Again, the hon. Lady makes an excellent point.

If the state is banning voluntary collective agreements, I must ask the Minister at what the point the Conservative party went from being laissez-faire to Stalinist. This goes against what I consider to be the principles the Conservative Party was founded on. The arguments advanced are also irrelevant because, if income tax can be deducted at source, then why not trade union subscriptions?

The measure will also leave the public sector at risk of legal challenge. The International Labour Organisation is looking at other countries that have tried the same thing, such as Congo. In 2010 the ILO committee of experts reported

“since the check-off system was abandoned in 1991, there has been no procedure for deducting trade union dues from workers’ pay. According to the Government, in practice, all unionized workers are expected to pay their dues to the trade union office. The Committee once again notes with regret that the Government has still not specified whether the abandonment of the check-off system in 1991 had the effect of barring trade unions from negotiating procedures allowing trade union dues to be deducted from members’ pay. The Committee once again reminds the Government that the deduction of trade union dues by employers and their transfer to the unions is not a matter that should be excluded from the scope of collective bargaining”.

The ILO committee of experts is now making observations on Croatia as well. It noted that

“in general, a legal provision which allows one party to modify unilaterally the content of signed collective agreements is contrary to the principles of collective bargaining”.

Its continues:

“The Committee requests the Government to provide a copy of the aforementioned Act and underlines the importance of ensuring that any future Act on the Realization of the State Budget does not enable the Government to modify the substance of collective agreements in force in the public service for financial reasons.”

Those are very serious matters. The Government are leaving themselves open to risk on that basis.

Once again, the principles of consent are relevant. Some public bodies, as the shadow Minister has said, receive income from trade unions to administer check-off, and the general secretary of Unison, Dave Prentis, made it clear in his evidence that Unison pays for the facility when it is asked to. The public sector does not support the principle of banning check-off. The consent of the devolved Administrations, local authorities and other public bodies should be required, but we believe that the real intention is to make derecognition easier in the workplace. The new clause strikes at the heart of trade union organisation and is insidious.

I do not think that the Minister has yet demonstrated that he understands the principles of consent or devolution. He has made the extraordinary claim that the Government are complying with the Smith agreement, but I think that the only people who think so are the Government; no independent analysis shows that. I think that it is the right of all public bodies to institute their own arrangements for industrial relations, check-off and facility time. We appeal to the Minister once again to try to understand the principles behind those things, and I hope he will accept the amendment.

Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the final Committee sitting, Sir Edward.

In tabling the new clause on check-off, the Government seem extremely concerned to bring trade unions into the 21st century. For the second time in Committee I am forced to admit that I agree with the Minister—not on the content of the amendment, but on the aim of modernisation. The Government seem to believe that paying union subscriptions online, via a bank account, is an acceptable facet of 21st-century trade unionism, but that secure online balloting is not. We must ask ourselves why.

I had an inkling of that while looking back through a 2011 Conservative Home column—I have very exciting evenings—which, thanks to a quotation from the then Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, specifically tied the issue of check-off to the collection of a political levy. That makes me wonder whether the motive for the new clause has more to do with that issue. About 3.8 million public sector workers could be affected by the proposed changes, yet there is no groundswell of demand for the changes from anyone other than the Conservative party.

I want to set out a few inconsistencies to highlight how the amendment does not make sense. I have mentioned the Government’s hypocrisy in opposing online balloting, so I begin with the fact that the use of check-off is voluntary. No employer has to offer it. As with facility time, the right should be with the employer to decide whether the practice benefits their workforce or not. In the case of local government and the devolved Governments in Wales and Scotland, the Westminster Government are imposing top-down solutions to problems that do not exist on the ground.

Secondly, this is not about taxpayers’ money. In many instances, as we have heard, trade unions pay for the very small cost of administering check-off. As the Minister has pointed out, this is the 21st century: payroll is automated. As Unison noted it its written evidence to this committee, the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury in the coalition Government wrote to stop attempts to end check-off, saying that,

“Departments should be aware that there is no fiscal case for doing this, as the Unions have offered to pay any costs associated with check-off, which are in any case minimal”.

As the hon. Member for Glasgow South West mentioned, Unison general secretary Dave Prentis gave us evidence on 15 October about check-off arrangements and gave numerous examples of arrangements that Unison has in place where it either pays for the check-off system, or the employer that the union works with makes money out of it. He named Fife Council, East Lancashire hospitals, Bradford City Council, and Derbyshire County Council, to name a few. If cost really were the issue here, surely the appropriate response is to ensure that the costs are met, rather than to entirely abolish the system.

That brings me to how check-off is used by other organisations. From animal welfare to cancer charities, from helping the homeless to children’s organisations, payroll giving is commonplace. Workplace Giving UK says that it is the most efficient way to give to charity—it works with huge charities such as the Stroke Association and Macmillan. The Payroll Giving Centre claims that over 8,000 employers use the system, with over 1 million people donating from their salaries. It is efficient and easily understood, yet while this system of giving seems set to continue and indeed expand for charities, it is being removed for trade union members.

Finally, on transparency and accountability, check-off ensures that members do not continue to pay their subscription after they have left employment. It is a very clear and easy way for a member to pay subscriptions when in employment but not to continue doing so when they leave their job. Taken with other sections of this Bill, this new clause contributes to a new, sprawling and costly bureaucracy that is being put in place with the sole aim of impeding the ability of trade unions to organise politically and industrially. This is all that this is.

We oppose the new clause and the Bill, but if the Minister really wishes to demonstrate that he is serious about modernisation, I urge him to withdraw this amendment and instead bring forward measures to ensure that taxpayers’ money is not spent on check-off, if that really is his concern, and to specify that trade unions pay for the facility themselves, as many already do.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I will start by answering some of the questions raised by Opposition Members. There was a question about the transition period and how long trade unions with check-off arrangements would be given to move people over to direct debits. My right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office has suggested that a transition period of six months from commencement of the provisions on check-off would be appropriate.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I am interested in that response. Why is a six-month period suggested for transition on check-off but only three months for the transition on political fund opt-ins? What is the justification for that?

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

Probably it relates to the fact that check-off does not just involve the relationship between the trade union and the individual member, as the political fund does. It also involves the employer, so there are more administrative steps to go through. I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman does not welcome the fact that the period is longer. We could have aligned the two periods of course, but no doubt he would have attacked us for doing that. I do not expect to be thanked for these things, but a little generosity at this stage in consideration of the Bill might be nice.

Secondly, a number of hon. Members have made a big play of the fact that a number of trade unions pay for the check-off arrangement. Indeed, they are right to do so. The difficulty is that research carried out by their favourite organisation, the TaxPayers Alliance, revealed that in fact only 22% of public sector employers charge for check-off, so it is a little rich to claim that public sector organisations are somehow making a nice turn on it. I remember from the evidence sessions that the hon. Member for Cardiff Central suggested that social workers would have to be fired if the check-off arrangement were ended. There are relatively few situations in which public sector organisations are being paid for the administrative task that they fulfil.

Several hon. Members rose —

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I have clearly stirred a hornets’ nest. I am spoiled for choice. I will start with the hon. Member for Sunderland Central, because we have not heard from her today.

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

I have made a couple of interventions. Can the Minister advise from what return the figure of 22% was derived? My understanding is that it is not based on 100%, so it is not an entirely complete figure.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I have no doubt that the hon. Lady quotes surveys, samples and everything else in her contributions to various debates, so she will be aware that it is possible to draw conclusions about the behaviour of organisations without necessarily interviewing every single one of them. Indeed, I believe her own party took a great deal of encouragement from various opinion polls before the election that seemed to offer predictions about voter behaviour.

The TaxPayers Alliance report in 2013 revealed that 972 public sector organisations that it had contacted and from which it received responses deducted membership subscriptions to trade unions in the check-off arrangement. Of those, 213, or 22%, charged the union for the service. Charging arrangements ranged from a proportion of the costs of subscription—between 0.5% and 6%—to a flat charge per employee or a monthly fee charged to the union. I make no claim that every single public sector employer was interviewed, but it is a reasonably large sample, and it would be surprising if the average for the whole were very different.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

Since the Minister published this amendment, how many public sector employers have written to him supporting the removal of check-off? I am curious about it. If some have decided to provide it freely, there does not seem to be a lot of support in the public sector for banning it completely.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

Funnily enough, the hon. Gentleman’s question gets to the heart of the difference between the Conservative party and the Scottish National party. We believe that the public sector employers are the taxpayers—the people of Great Britain who work and pay taxes in order to pay for us and for everybody else in the public sector, and for everything that the public sector does. They are the employers, not the board of this NHS trust, that police force or this local authority, which are charged by the taxpayer to discharge their responsibilities and handle taxpayers’ money cautiously and carefully. It is entirely reasonable for us as representatives of the ultimate employers of the public sector—the taxpayers—to represent their interests and insist that they get value for their money, which they are currently not getting through check-off. I will now move to the amendment, unless—

Tom Blenkinsop rose—

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I have not heard from the hon. Gentleman, so why not?

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

The main point that we are trying to make is that there are managers who run large public sector organisations who have HR competencies and deal with vast amounts of public sector workers: take the NHS, for example, or any hospital trust. They will be very concerned about any breakdown in recognition—the ability to know where their staff are, who represents them and who to talk to on a collective basis. There will be massive chaos if individual consultation is required on every HR matter.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I am the first to defer to the hon. Gentleman on intimate knowledge of the detailed realities of working for trade unions and working in an organisation with high levels of union representation—I do not claim to be able to match him on that—but we have got rid of check-off in the civil service over the last few years. There are many issues at debate in the civil service. I am not going to suggest that everything is sweetness and light there, but it is a bit of a stretch to say that the removal of check-off specifically has caused chaos in the civil service.

Tom Blenkinsop rose—

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

No, I will just finish. The hon. Gentleman can put his hand down, because I have noted that he wants to intervene. He will be well aware that some civil service unions—I mention no names—have lost members to other unions, not to no union but to other unions, because, now that there is no check-off, other unions that offer a better service, possibly at a lower cost, can get in and win the support of individuals in the civil service, whereas the legacy union was simply relying on individuals being locked in through a check-off system. I would have thought that the modern Labour party, which I know he always feels he is part of, would want to support the introduction of a little competition among unions in offering a consumer service to their members.

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

Unfortunately, the Minister displays his ignorance, because inter-union competition has been going on for decades, since the Bridlington agreement. In the interest of the nation, its people, the public sector and its employees, we want proper recognition agreements so that both parties know with whom they are talking. Trying to say that this is about helping trade unions to recruit members is pathetic. That is a completely redundant argument, and it does not represent the interest of the British general public. What we want to know is that, when paramedics bring up industrial issues and health and safety concerns, they will be talking to an HR manager who knows what they are talking about, rather than having to talk to various individuals in a scattergun fashion, thereby putting services at risk.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I feel that I may have touched a nerve, so perhaps I better not press that any further.

I will move on to the amendment tabled by the SNP. The Committee debated similar amendments at length last Tuesday. As I said then, all the provisions in the Bill relate to employment and industrial relations law, which are clearly reserved matters under the devolution settlements for Scotland and Wales. New clause 11 relates to the same reserved matters, so it is entirely in order for the Government to propose that its provisions should also apply to the whole of Great Britain. I see no reason why the Government should seek consent before applying those provisions in particular areas.

In Northern Ireland, on the other hand, employment and industrial relations are transferred matters so, respecting the agreement that was properly reached with Northern Ireland, new clause 11 will not apply there. Certain responsibilities are being devolved to local authorities in England and to the Mayor of London, but none of those responsibilities includes employment and industrial relations law. Amendment (a) seeks to carve out different arrangements for Scotland, Wales, London and English local authorities on matters of employment and industrial relations law, which Parliament has already determined are reserved. I therefore ask hon. Members not to press the amendment.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

We received clarification on this in the previous similar debate. Proposed new section 116B(3) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 states that such regulations may potentially apply to bodies that are wholly or partly funded from public funds. We have talked about organisations that receive small grant funding of, say, £10,000 from public sources. Will the Minister clarify the extent to which the new clause will apply to such organisations?

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

My understanding is that the new clause will not apply, for instance, to a charity that receives a grant from the Government—absolutely not. This is for public sector organisations, but I will happily write to the Committee to confirm that the definition will be similar to the one used for other provisions.

New Clause 9 - Statements on Bills affecting Trade Union political funds

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

I refer to remarks I made when we were discussing the proposed schedule to the Bill that interference in political funds in this way is a democratic and constitutional outrage. Trying to suggest, or even thinking, that political advantage is to be gained by changing political funds in this way is wrong. As we have already heard, the approach being taken on this Bill breaches the Churchill convention.

The purpose of the new clause is to ensure that Government will try and seek agreement with all political parties. This is important because it is not just the Labour party that has benefited from trade union funds. Plaid Cymru candidates have received money from trade unions, as have SNP candidates, Green party candidates and candidates from various socialist parties in all their guises. We simply propose a mechanism for dealing with political fund arrangements and to take a gold standard approach to these matters.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I support the new clause in the name of the hon. Member for Glasgow South West and to indicate our formal support, we have added our names to it. During the course of the debate on political fund opt-ins and so on, we also made it very clear that if the Bill receives Royal Assent in its current form, it will mark the abrupt end of the long-standing consensus in British politics that the Government should not introduce partisan legislation that would unfairly disadvantage other political parties. We also made reference to what is known as the Churchill convention, as raised by Professor Ewing in oral evidence to the Committee.

We support the new clause that would provide that before the Government introduce the Bill, which would affect trade union political funds, they should make a clear statement about whether it is being introduced with or without the agreement of all political parties represented in the House of Commons and that statement should be published. Certainly, I believe that that is the clear aim and that we should encourage the Government to seek political consensus with other political parties before introducing legislation that interferes with unions’ ability in this respect. The hon. Gentleman has mentioned examples. This is a point of principle. We have not seen this attempted before. The Government can, of course, impose their will—they have the maths—on the Opposition if they wish to do so. We all know that that is the case. The question is whether it is right to do that. We have discussed these issues at length, but this clause will seek to make it clear that the Government will have to be very clear about their intentions in future.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I love the way the Opposition seek to invent conventions whenever it is useful. It is an easy game to play because all that is needed is to find a very great person from the past—hopefully dead so that they cannot be consulted—take something they once said and declare it a convention. It is certainly something that, should I ever find myself in Opposition—God forbid—I will avail myself of.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I am sure the Minister will confirm that the noble Lord Hague is not deceased.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

Very far from it, and long may he not be.

Our manifesto stated very clearly that a future Conservative Government would ensure that

“trade unions use a transparent opt-in process for union subscriptions”.

We were elected on that basis after a prolonged debate in the country of all the policies in all the different parties’ manifestos. That is exactly what we are doing.

The right and proper place to consider the provisions relating to that manifesto promise is in Committee and on the Floor of the House. In that way, the debate is transparent and democratic, and the electorate can see what is agreed and whether it is indeed what they were promised in the manifesto. Those debates should not happen behind closed doors and be presented to the public as a fait accompli.

We heard from the hon. Member for Glasgow South West and other hon. Members during the Committee’s deliberations about excellent campaigns such as HOPE not hate that receive support from trade unions through their political funds. I think we can all agree that those are very worthy causes that would command the support of all of us. I see no reason why they should not command the support of union members in exercising their opt-in to the political funds. I urge the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his new clause.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

I am not going to press the new clause to a Division, because I think the case should be heard before the whole House, with all political parties present, so I will bring it back on Report. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion,

New Clause 10 - The Certification Officer

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

I am told that there will be a Division in the House in less than a minute so we will suspend now. If there is only one Division, we will meet in 20 minutes. If there is a second Division, we will meet 15 minutes after the start of the second Division.

Steve Barclay (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I take due note, Sir Edward.

New Clause 12 - Industrial action and agency workers

Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

It is a pleasure to appear again under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. The new clause pertains to agency workers. We have heard quite extensively from many public sector bodies about their concerns in this regard. They have very clear concerns relating, for example, to patient safety, which has been highlighted again and again.

Repealing the existing prohibition on hiring agency staff to replace workers participating in industrial action fundamentally undermines the right to strike. It reduces the impact of strike action and upsets the power balance between workers and employers. Deploying a replacement workforce during a strike serves only to prolong the dispute, delay resolution and embitter industrial relations.

A change of this nature has implications for all workers. If rogue employers can draft in low-paid temporary workers to break strikes, that is likely to drag down pay and working conditions for workers right across the economy, as fewer people will be willing to stand up for themselves when facing injustice at work because they will know that they can simply be replaced. The change could also have an adverse implication for the agency workers themselves. It places them in an extremely difficult situation. They may risk not getting further work if they refuse such placements and they would have no statutory protection. Furthermore, introducing inexperienced workers to take on the role of the permanent workforce in a workplace that they are not familiar with has implications for health and safety and the quality of the services, as we have heard. That would impact both on the workers and on the public, who may want or require to use the services.

A recent YouGov poll found that of those surveyed, 65% were against bringing in temporary agency workers to break public sector strikes, with more than half saying that they thought that that would worsen services and have a negative impact on safety. Only 8% of the public who were surveyed believed that hiring agency workers during strikes would improve services.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

In the evidence sessions, we heard from passenger transport groups, which made it plain that if train or bus drivers, for example, were replaced during a strike by people who were not trained, that would have real effects on public safety. Does my hon. Friend agree?

Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point. We have heard it time and again not just from the workers to whom he refers, but from healthcare and other workers.

The drawbacks of allowing agency staff to be used in this way are recognised by other European countries. By repealing the current legislation, the UK Government would become an outlier in this regard, as the majority of other European countries prohibit or severely restrict the use of agency workers during industrial disputes. In effect, this would be taking us back in time to the 1970s—a time when workers were pitted against one another. Often, that led to greater discord and disharmony for all, but particularly for the ordinary working person, who had difficulty sustaining their livelihood.

Again, this is partisan legislation and it is just not right. Our new clause is designed to ensure that agency workers would not be brought in. It states that a business

“shall not introduce or supply a work-seeker to a hirer to perform…the duties normally performed by a worker who is taking part in a strike or other industrial action…or…the duties normally performed by any other worker employed by the hirer and who is assigned by the hirer to perform the duties normally performed by the first worker”.

The new clause is designed to give the everyday worker in public services the same rights as others. It would give them the ability to engage in right and proper action as a last resort when they have to but not have their causes undermined. As we have heard, the public do not want that and it would also potentially undermine safety. I therefore look forward to the Minister’s response.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

The new clause enjoys the support of the Labour party, and I would be happy to add my name and those of my hon. Friends the Members for Wallasey and for Edinburgh South to it formally. As described by the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow, the new clause would insert into the Bill a ban on the supply of agency workers during industrial action.

The Government are planning to remove the ban through regulations. It seems they have been undertaking a consultation. Regulation 7 of the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003 prohibits agencies from knowingly supplying agency workers to replace striking workers. The change that we understand the Government are planning to bring forward will enable employers to bring in agency workers with a view to breaking strikes, regardless of the consequences for health and safety, which the hon. Lady has gone through in some detail.

We have heard from many witnesses throughout this Committee, both in the oral evidence sessions and more recently via written evidence. It is also important to look at the evidence that many organisations submitted to the Government’s consultation, much of which has been made available publicly. I will touch on a few parts of that evidence that I think are very pertinent.

In the oral evidence, the Government called a witness from an organisation called 2020 Health to support their Bill, but the witness seemed unable to confirm or was unaware that trade unions are required to provide life and limb cover. The Royal College of Midwives gave evidence. When it took strike action in October 2013, the RCM and its local representatives worked with hospitals to ensure that services were still available to women in need of essential care, such as those in labour. In light of that, many will rightly ask whether the provisions on agency workers are necessary.

Recruiters are wary of using temps and agency workers as strike-breakers. Kate Shoesmith, who is head of policy at the Recruitment and Employment Confederation, which has more than 3,500 corporate members, said:

“We are not convinced that putting agencies and temporary workers into the middle of difficult industrial relations situations is a good idea for agencies, workers or their clients.”

The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, which we have commented on many times, represents more than 140,000 members working across the public and private sectors. It warned that the Government’s plans to reform trade union laws are “an outdated response” given the challenges faced today.

Frances O'Grady, the TUC general secretary, spoke of the practical problems with the proposal. She said:

“We have very good relations and agreements with agencies and the federation representing agencies in this country. We have always worked very closely on the fair principles of employers needing flexibility to cover peaks and troughs in production, or staff absences, and doing that on the basis of equal treatment within the framework of the union agreement. This proposal is obviously quite different. We are potentially talking about employers having the right to replace wholesale workers who have democratically voted to go on strike with, potentially, untrained and inexperienced agency workers.”––[Official Report, Trade Union Public Bill Committee, 15 October 2015; c. 148, Q383.]

I also want to refer to the TUC’s response to the Department’s consultation, which said:

“Ciett, the International Confederation of Private Employment Agencies, has issued a Code of Conduct which prohibits the supply of agency workers during strikes…The Memorandum of Understanding between Ciett Corporate Members and Uni Global Union on Temporary Agency Work, which was signed by several UK agencies in 2008, prohibits ‘the replacement of striking workers by temporary agency workers without prejudice to national legislation or practices.’”

The TUC makes clear in its evidence that

“the ban on the supply of agency workers to replace strikers has been in place for more than 30 years and is an established part of UK industrial relations practice.”

We heard some striking examples from the hon. Lady, and I want to emphasise my similar concerns, particularly over transport and railways and so on. The TUC points to how:

“Agency cleaners recruited to work in food factories may not have received the requisite safety training relating to handling chemicals or cleaning products.”

That places the safety of customers, let alone that of the agency workers, at risk. There were also concerns about the potential for tensions to be created around migrant workers and all the issues surrounding that, which we have already discussed at different points.

Most people have a great deal of concern about many of the circumstances we have discussed where agency workers could be brought in. The evidence is pretty damning and the Government should be embarrassed that they are trying to force the measures through, despite the chorus of opposition to them.

As I have argued throughout our consideration of the Bill, any one of the clauses on its own is bad enough, but the cumulative impact is worse still. The Government’s apparent proposals on agency workers, alongside clause 7, imply that the extended notice period is being introduced to give employers additional time to organise agency workers to undermine industrial action, as well as to prepare for the legal challenges that I think will inevitably result from the Bill. We are firmly opposed to the removal of the ban on the supply of agency workers during strikes, which will make it easier for employers to break strikes or undermine their effectiveness.

The Opposition believe that the measures would be bad for safety and for service users. Because they could serve to prolong or worsen industrial action, they would be bad for the general public too. It is certainly not a model for modern industrial relations. If our colleagues choose to press the amendment to a vote, they will enjoy our full and hearty support.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

By seeking to enshrine in primary legislation the current ban in regulations on employment businesses supplying temporary workers to cover the duties of striking workers, as well as extend the ban to hiring or engaging such workers through an employment agency, the amendment seeks to pre-empt the outcome of the Government’s response to the consultation on agency workers, the purpose of which was to understand the impact of revoking regulation 7 of the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003, thus making it lawful to hire agency workers to cover striking workers.

I entirely respect and understand that Opposition Members have many principled objections to the proposal. There will be another opportunity to debate the merits of the proposal after the Government have responded to the consultation, if we decide to proceed with removing the regulations. The removal of the regulations—I might be anticipating the hon. Gentleman’s question—will be done by affirmative resolution, which requires a debate in both Houses of Parliament. I humbly suggest that now is not the time to anticipate the Government’s response to the consultation.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Clearly we are attempting to pre-empt in this case, because we have serious concerns. The Minister rightly points out that the Government have not yet responded to the consultation. As we have seen throughout the process, we do not have the Government responses to consultation that one would think we would have had before getting to this stage of the Bill. Can he outline what percentage or number of the responses received to the consultation so far have been in favour of the Government’s intentions, and how many have been implacably opposed, as our new clause is?

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

The hon. Gentleman does not just want to anticipate the publication of the response to the consultation and the Government’s decision whether to proceed with removing the ban; he wants to anticipate the contents of the response to the consultation by asking what the responses were. I am afraid that he will have to wait until we publish the response. There were numerous responses to the consultation, which closed in September, from a wide range of respondents, including businesses, schools, local authorities, emergency services and trade unions and their members, and we are analysing those responses. We will consider all representations made, and will publish a Government response in due course.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

The Minister is right that we are trying to pre-empt it. Does he not recognise the concern that some of us have? In some places, agency workers have been used during industrial action. The current law is weak in trying to stop that, and we are trying to improve the situation. Does he recognise that?

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

I certainly recognise that the Opposition feel strongly about that position, and I have absolutely no doubt that they will return with these or similar clauses, and certainly with similar arguments, should the Government decide to pursue a change in the regulations banning the use of agency workers. However, I do not want to pre-empt the Government’s position, because we have not yet decided how we will respond to the consultation. On that basis, I urge the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the amendment.

Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

Although I find the Minister extremely eloquent with an appearance of moderation, as I have done throughout, I must say that the SNP find it disingenuous. We wish to put safety, public opinion and the ordinary worker at the fore. I therefore urge the Committee to support the new clause.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

On a point of order, I want to take this opportunity, if you will allow me, Sir Edward, to thank a number of people for the conduct of proceedings during this line-by-line scrutiny of the Bill. It has been a very fulsome and forthright debate, but conducted with good humour and respect, which is always important. I thank the Minister for his good humour despite being under significant pressure. He has had a tough gig with this, having been put in this position by some of his more sinister colleagues—as I once described them—not, perhaps, sitting in this Room, but maybe in the dark recesses of the Cabinet Office and elsewhere. He knows who I mean.

More seriously, I am sure that we will come back to many issues on Report that we are not satisfied with the Government’s position on and we will continue to oppose the Bill at every stage. I thank you, Sir Edward, and your fellow Chair, Sir Alan, for excellent chairing and good humour. I thank the Clerks, in particular Glenn McKee and Fergus Reid, who have provided excellent support. It is always a tough job for an Opposition to hold a Government to scrutiny and it is important that we have the support of the apparatus of the House of Commons in doing so. I also thank Hansard and the doorkeepers, especially for the numerous votes when we have forced them to go out and shout about in the corridor.

I thank my colleagues on this side of the Committee. It has been good to work alongside our colleagues from the SNP on many aspects of the Bill. There is much which divides our parties, but there is much that unites us on this issue. I thank, in particular, my hon. Friend the Member for Newport East, who has whipped the Bill, for her support at all times with all the procedure. On that note, high thanks to all and I look forward to joining the debate when we return in the Chamber.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

On a further point of order, Sir Edward, I, too, want to thank you for your chairmanship of our proceedings and for enabling us to ensure that we have a full complement on the Government Benches at all stages of the Bill, despite some of our attempts to make it hard for you to achieve that. I also thank the Clerks, the doorkeepers and everybody who has supported us in these deliberations.

I hope it will not blight the career of the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth if I say that he has conducted opposition to the Bill with exemplary precision and persistence. I am very much awed by the superb support of the Rolls-Royce that is the civil service in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. The hon. Gentleman has to rely on a little help from trade unions and other interested parties, but mainly on the superb work of the Clerks. He has done an admirable job which has demonstrated the support of the Clerks.

I hope that the entire Committee agrees that we have given the Bill a proper going over and the fact that we are concluding proceedings a little before time—we have until 5 o’clock this evening—shows that a full and proper consideration of all the provisions in the Bill has been achieved.

I, too, thank the hon. Members from the Scottish National party. I particularly enjoyed that way that the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow, in concluding, offered me a bouquet and then slid a blade between my ribs without so much as a heartbeat or a pause for breath. Finally, I thank the Hansard reporters for reporting what I have said accurately—unless I said stupid things, in which case they always seem to improve what I say.

On that basis, I thank Committee members from both sides for their contributions to the debate.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

It is my pleasure to thank you, ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of Sir Alan and myself. We both found the Committee most enjoyable. Obviously feelings run high, but you have all conducted yourself brilliantly: the Minister, the Opposition spokesman, the Opposition Whip, even the Government Whip—[ Interruption. ] I love teasing him. I love him really; he is a great man. Perhaps he is one of these sinister forces we hear so much about. Seriously though, it has been a good Bill. The fact that we have finished only an hour early shows, as the Minister said, that we have given it a good going over. We have done our job and held the Government to account. All Committee members should be proud of their efforts.

Does anyone want to say anything more?

Chris Stephens rose—

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

Oh, we must have a last word from the SNP.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

This was my first Bill Committee and it has been a most interesting experience. In any event, I have come to the conclusion that it is no way to run a country. In future, consideration should be given to having more evidence sessions, because some of them were crammed in. I am just putting that out there in general terms as the views of a new Member on proceedings.

I thank you, Sir Edward, and Sir Alan. You have both been very encouraging and explained the processes as they arose. I thank the Clerks, who have been very helpful and talked us through tabling amendments. I agree that we have tried to maintain good humour; I tried myself with cultural references to “Star Wars”, “Game of Thrones” and, I think, “Rainbow” in one instance. I thank all Committee members. The Labour Members have done themselves proud in providing opposition to the Bill, while the Conservative Members have tried to justify it as best they can. I look forward to continuing the debate on Report.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

On these happy occasions I always feel like I am at a count—I feel like I should thank the returning officer and the policemen. Thank you for all being so fraternal in the best traditions of our trade union movement.