Trade Union Bill
Public Bill Committee, 15 October 2015.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
We start by considering the motion to make an amendment to the programme motion. I remind Members that the Standing Orders provide that the Minister may move such a motion and that if any member of the Committee signifies an objection, the proceedings on the motion will lapse.
Examination of Witnesses
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Our two witnesses are Steve White, who is chair of the Police Federation of England and Wales, and Deputy Chief Constable Charlie Hall of the National Police Chiefs Council. You are both very welcome.
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Good morning and welcome to the witnesses. There is a serious number of provisions in this Bill, particularly in relation to picketing. One of the consultation documents contains proposals on supervising social media comments and potential criminalisation, although we are not clear on the Government’s position on those issues. Do you believe that there are problems with the way in which the Bill could be policed and the additional stresses and strains it would place on policing, which is obviously already subject to significant pressures?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Steve, do you share those views?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Given what you have said, do you both think that there is a risk that with some of the provisions—particularly those about being able to demand letters, anyone being able to demand a letter, the wearing of armbands and all sorts of stuff—that if things got out of hand, they could draw the police into situations where multiple people demand things? As you say, preferably, the police should stay out of these situations. Do you think that there is potentially a risk of a breakdown in order around protests that otherwise would have been conducted and self-policed, as you have described?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
I have one last question. Would it be your opinion that, in a general sense, industrial relations and the involvement of the police have significantly improved over the last 10, 20 or 30 years, compared with some of the situations that we might have seen in the past, and that we do not want to jeopardise that type of relationship? I think it applies more broadly to the policing of protests, as well, that we have got to a very good situation and that we do not want to put that at risk.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Okay. I am already getting a list of people to ask questions, and we only have half an hour. You do not both need to answer questions unless you really want to, and I ask members of the Committee to try to limit themselves to one supplementary question, unless they are really bursting to ask another. I know that the next questioner will be very brief and to the point.
John Howell (Conservative, Henley)
Thank you, Sir Edward. May I stay on the same subject? If a dispute gets out of hand, you are required to go and police it. Does the notice period in the Bill not give you advance warning, so you can tell whether policing is likely to be needed? I cannot see what the problem is with the notice period.
John Howell (Conservative, Henley)
May I follow up with one question? I am still struggling to see what harm the notice period causes.
Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)
It may appear that I am shouting at you, but I am not; it is so the other members of the Committee can hear me. I apologise.
I have two quick questions. Do you both agree that the proposal to allow agency workers to come in and replace striking workers would result in increased tensions in the workplace and that the police would have to become more involved in those sorts of issues? What more resources would the police need to police some of the aspects in the Bill?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Mr White, you are talking to us.
Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)
And on agency workers.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
As you are a main Opposition spokesman, Mr Stephens, if you want to have the same amount of time as Mr Doughty, I am very relaxed about it. Are you happy?
Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)
I am happy.
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
Thank you for coming in today. I want to focus on the point about identification. Mr Hall, you said that it may be of benefit to be able to identify who to speak to and know who is the organiser. Is that not currently the case, in your experience of dealing with disputes?
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
To follow up, I am not trying to pass comment on whether the parts of the Bill that deal with social media are right or wrong, but you use social media for investigations at the moment. People can commit offences using social media. That is currently the case.
Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)
On social media, I do not think that this appears in the Bill, but it was certainly referred to in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills consultation document on the Bill. The consultation document referred to having to give notice of use of social media in support of a picket, and it referred to having to give notice of the content of social media used to support a picket. That concept is interesting, because if you have to give notice of content on Twitter, you potentially introduce the question of secondary and/or wildcat tweeting in support of picketing. Have you got any comments about that?
Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)
And there is law covering that sort of content anyway, is there not?
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
You have both mentioned limited resources. I just want to ask you whether you think it is right that your limited resources are used to get involved in large-scale strikes in the country. Looking at the tube strikes, for example, do you think that it is right that police resources are used to manage the strikes when only a minority of people have asked for them in the first place?
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
So you are being made to deploy resources from other incidents to manage strike action, when only a minority of people have asked for those strikes?
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
So you would have to deploy resources from elsewhere. You mentioned industrial disputes being self-policing, and you also mentioned, Chief Constable, that it would be easier if you were able to identify individuals who might be in charge if you came across a scenario. Wearing an armband would be one easy way to identify people, would it not?
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
And you do not think that is detrimental to their human rights—having to wear an arm band?
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
It saves money and saves time, does not it?
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
You also mentioned that it is very rare to get into a difficult situation. Most of the time these situations are self-policed and well managed; but have you come across scenarios where people wanting to cross the picket line have felt intimidated? Have you had to police that situation at all?
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
Then you have to move resources across.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
When I was practising as a criminal barrister we were not allowed to ask leading questions. There is nothing out of order about leading questions, but our witnesses are so skilled that one probably does not need to lead them, and I sure Mr Doughty, who has the next question, will not.
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
There has been some quite unhelpful rhetoric from Ministers about the Bill and industrial action in general. Although industrial action has been at significantly low levels for a generation, the Minister for the Cabinet Office has talked about setting up hit squads, and standing ready to use the Cobra system to deal with industrial action. What are your thoughts about those comments? Do you think it is appropriate that we are talking about using the Cobra system, which is a key national resilience mechanism, to deal with what are extremely low levels of industrial action?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Specifically on Cobra, in your view would it be a very small number of instances where it would ever be appropriate for that system to be brought into play?
Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))
Thank you both for being here. I have a question for the deputy chief constable. I think you mentioned that your primary responsibilities are to keep the peace and uphold the law. Obviously there have been situations where that has not been the case on picket lines, and we heard evidence on Tuesday about that and talk of intimidation. I was looking around at how you deal with other organised protests, such as marches, and it says clearly on the Met police website:
“Organisers should try to give as much notice as possible”,
and provide the names and addresses of organisers. Given that, would it be a help or a hindrance for you to have the notice period in the Bill of two weeks and the identity of someone organising a protest? It seems pretty clear that it would be a help, rather than a hindrance, but I wanted to confirm which of those you think it would be.
Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))
Am I right in thinking that it is helpful, then? The Metropolitan police ask for as much information as possible.
Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))
I have a quick follow-up for Steve. When you were describing the picket lines that you have been involved in, you were saying that people were thoroughly enjoying themselves and having a jolly. Part of why we are all here, and the Bill is here, is to tackle the issue of strikes being held on low turnouts and out-of-date ballots that then inconvenience millions of people across the country. We have been hearing from union representatives that, for the most part, they understand that strikes are a last resort and are taken very seriously. Do you also agree with that? The description that you gave just a minute ago about people having a bit of a jolly and thoroughly enjoying themselves, while inconveniencing millions of people, seemed a bit out of kilter with what we have been hearing from others.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Okay. We have two minutes and two more questions. Jo Stevens and Seema Kennedy, just a brisk question from each of you, please.
Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)
I have a question for both witnesses, if I may. You have both talked about the pressures on operational resources at the moment. Given the additional workload for the police that will come in if the Bill becomes law, would you rather have that, or not?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Okay. Very quickly, Mr White.
Seema Kennedy (Conservative, South Ribble)
On Tuesday, we heard from one of the opposition witnesses, Dave Smith, who made very serious claims about police collusion in blacklisting. He said, among other things, that the police are going to keep a list of picket supervisors and pass it on to big businesses. How would you respond to those very serious allegations?
Seema Kennedy (Conservative, South Ribble)
So you would say that what he said was untrue.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Good. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for your evidence, which is much appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to talk to us. We are very grateful.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Good afternoon. We are now joined by David Palmer-Jones, who is chief executive officer of SITA UK, and Commissioner Ron Dobson of the London fire brigade. You are both very welcome.
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
I have a question for each of you. First, Commissioner, could you outline your relationships with the Fire Brigades Union, how you feel they are at the moment and whether you think the Bill will help or hinder them?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
David, I understand that there has been a series of disputes involving your company. Can you tell us a bit about one of the disputes that is going on in relation to Teesside and Merseyside at the moment? I understand that trade unions have recently met with the company and requested a full forensic audit of your workers’ terms and conditions, but apparently you have refused it on cost grounds. The trade unions involved have offered to pay for the audit, but it has been refused. Could you tell us a bit about the dispute and why that is the situation at the moment?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
I asked a very specific question, though. I understand that there has been a request for a forensic audit of your workers’ terms and conditions. Why have you refused the willingness to pay for it?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
May I interrupt? This is not a Select Committee, Mr Doughty; it is a Bill Committee, so your questions have to go laser-like to the Bill.
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
The reason I wanted to ask the question was to find out why you think you have been asked here to give evidence on the Bill. Is it so that your poor industrial relations with a whole series of unions can then be used as an example to be reflected in full-scale national policy making? Is that why you think you have been invited here today?
Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)
The project at Wilton, of course, uses CNIM Clugston as the engineering, procurement and construction contractor. Are you aware of allegations that CNIM Clugston is paying certain members of staff—contractors who they employ and who are non-British workers—€6 an hour?
Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)
You are under no obligation, of course, to show a forensic audit to local MPs, but local MPs, of which I am one, have not been shown that information.
Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)
Sir Edward, may I inquire about the relevance of this to the legislation that the Committee is charged with scrutinising?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
I have made the point that I have to trust Members, in a sense. They are in charge of their own questioning, and I am not going to draw people up, but they have to remember that there must be a focus on the Bill all the time. Our witnesses must be aware that we are talking about the Bill.
Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)
I have not yet heard any question to this witness about any measure in the Bill.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Mr Blenkinsop has heard you, Minister, and I am sure both he and the witnesses will focus on the Bill.
Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)
For other contracts in Wilton—there are other power stations being built that I am aware of—are blue book terms being adhered to on that site, and will you show local MPs that evidence?
Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)
And will you show local MPs that forensic audit?
Seema Kennedy (Conservative, South Ribble)
Mr Palmer-Jones, in relation to the code of practice on picketing, could you elaborate on how social media is used to intimidate workers at Wilton?
Seema Kennedy (Conservative, South Ribble)
Could you describe some of the effects that has had on the workers?
Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)
I have some questions for Commissioner Dobson. Could you confirm whether you believe that the evidence collected in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills consultation on intimidation in the fire and rescue services is pretty thin? Could you also confirm that according to the Carr review, the decline in allegations of intimidation between the two disputes you referred to was down to better contingency planning? Given that you have intimated that industrial relations are more positive, would that not demonstrate that the Bill is unnecessary?
Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)
Okay. The Carr review said that allegations of intimidation decreased between those two disputes because of contingency planning. Do you agree with that?
Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)
I have one last question. My understanding is that you gave evidence to the Carr review.
Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)
Okay. Did you have any private meetings with Mr Carr?
Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)
Was that in a professional or personal capacity?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Mr Palmer-Jones, you were just touching on intimidation and the picket line you saw yesterday. Could you tell us a bit more?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
It would be very helpful to hear more about that.
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
I just have a specific question, given what the commissioner has been saying. Can you confirm whether during the 2010 dispute any FBU members were actually arrested or prosecuted for their behaviour in picketing; and, secondly, can you confirm whether any agency staff brought in were arrested or prosecuted for their behaviour?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Was anybody arrested?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
But no FBU members, to your knowledge, were arrested or prosecuted.
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Given that you are not aware of the wider circumstances, could you perhaps write to us and tell us what happened during that dispute, given that it has been referred to a number of times, with agency workers who were brought in? I think that is directly relevant to the Bill, because there are obviously proposals that the Government are putting forward on the use of agency workers. I think it is important to understand the sort of tensions that are created. Do you think there is potential for tensions being created more widely in industrial disputes by agency workers being brought in, particularly in professions such as yours where there are specific sets of health and safety concerns and specialities?
Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)
You have both referenced how keen you are to ensure good industrial relations in the work you do and the duty you have to your staff, to protect and look after them. We have heard a number of references from both sides, and from both of you, about intimidation. Can you give us a flavour of specific examples that have stuck in your mind of the form that intimidation has taken—what was said, what was done and how that played out?
Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)
I have a quick follow-up for the commissioner, and answer this as you wish. Did you have any reason to believe, or any evidence, notwithstanding that there were no arrests, that those who were either officials in or members of the FBU were those taking the photographs and carrying out that action?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
I have a couple of very quick follow-ups to what you were saying, Mr Palmer-Jones. On the incidents you have been talking about in relation to Teesside, can you confirm that that is not industrial action?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Therefore, can you confirm that the Bill does not apply to those instances, because they are not pickets?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
They are not pickets if it is not industrial action.
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
Thank you. Can I clarify one other thing you said? You said that officials of trade unions were tacitly approving the tactics deployed. Can you tell me which trade unions were doing that? We have the general secretaries of the big trade unions involved in your company here later today giving evidence, and we would like to put that to them.
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
Commissioner Dobson, in your earlier remarks you said that nothing in the Bill will worsen relationships in your view, but there are safeguards in it that will be of benefit. Do you welcome the threshold for action, which is one of the most important parts of the Bill?
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
It is just adding extra safeguards.
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
Just on what you said to my colleague Mr Argar about examples of intimidation, you said that in 2010 access was stopped to a fire station in an emergency.
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
This was while there was a fire?
Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)
I have a question for Mr Dobson. You have talked a lot about examples of intimidation during the 2010 dispute, and you also said that you had a private meeting with Mr Carr. You will be aware that the impact assessment for this Bill drew on the Carr review to justify what is in the Bill. I am sure you are also aware that Mr Carr was unable to make any evidence-based proposals or recommendations for change because of the lack of a significant body of evidence to support any recommendations for change. In your meeting with him, did you give him the examples of intimidation that you have described?
Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)
And you did that in a personal capacity, not a professional one.
Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)
Was it because a majority in the Greater London Authority had decided that you should not give evidence to Mr Carr?
Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)
At its meeting on 29 January this year, the GLA indicated that your evidence appeared in the Carr report in contravention of the wishes of a majority of assembly members. Do you deny that?
Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)
Are you aware that the Regulatory Policy Committee has described the impact assessment for the Bill as “not fit for purpose”?
Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)
Following on—a very brief question, if I may—in relation to the same dispute, can you tell the Committee what you believe led to the dispute happening in the first instance and what action you took to try to prevent it from occurring? I am aware that you attempted to de-escalate the dispute by docking the pay of 368 staff; that was later found unlawful by an employment tribunal. Can you tell us a little about that?
Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)
But it found against you: what you did was unlawful.
Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)
The hon. Member for Cardiff Central seemed to suggest that it was appropriate for the Greater London Assembly to have gagged you and prevented you from giving evidence on any matter that falls within your professional responsibility. You said very clearly that the assembly did not and that there was never any consideration of that. Nevertheless, had they tried to do so, do you think that that would have been appropriate?
Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)
And even if that authority had taken that view, would you, nevertheless, have felt it was right to prevent you from talking to an independent inquiry?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
John Howell is champing at the bit, but he is such a gentleman that I know he will want Nusrat Ghani to go first.
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
Thank you, Chair.
Commissioner Dobson, I want to ask about something you mentioned to Mr Cartlidge earlier. Is it correct that in the 2010 dispute the non-striking workers found it difficult to get into the fire station?
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
You also mentioned that fire engines were approached, deterred or attacked when leaving the station.
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
Were any firefighters’ lives at risk at that time, when they were trying to carry out their duty?
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
They could have been hurt though.
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
And the victims of fire—could their lives have been put at risk if fire engines were unable to get out to them in a decent time?
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
So it was dangerous for both the firefighters and the victims of fire who were asking for help.
John Howell (Conservative, Henley)
Mr Palmer-Jones, earlier you threw away a line about the intimidation you had been facing being likely to affect your ability to invest. Would you like to explain that?
John Howell (Conservative, Henley)
So you would welcome putting the existing code of conduct into a statutory form?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
I will stop you there and Chris Stephens can ask the last question.
Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)
Just a quick question to Commissioner Dobson. In an answer to Mr Cartlidge, you indicated that you agree with the thresholds in the Bill. Is that your private opinion or were you speaking for you organisation?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Thank you very much for your evidence, gentlemen.
Examination of Witness
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
Our last witness this morning is Byron Taylor of the national office of the Trade Union and Labour Party Liaison Organisation.
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
For the avoidance of doubt, I have already declared an interest, but obviously, I am a member of the Labour party and of the GMB, which is a member of TULO. Byron, could you tell us why you believe the provisions in the Bill break the established conventions on arrangements for political party funding?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
May I ask a specific question? There is an important point here about the distinction being made between the rules governing company donations and corporate donations to political parties and trade union donations to political parties. Could you say a little bit about the difference between the conditions that will be brought about by this Bill and what applies to, for example, companies making political donations—for example, the ability of shareholders to opt out of those decisions?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Can you give us some practical examples of how trade unions are transparent about their funding—the amounts that are given and so on—at the moment, and why the provisions in the Bill simply are not required?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
The Bill’s provisions would have to be adhered to within three months of Royal Assent and its commencement. Do you think that is a fair amount of time for any organisation to comply with such significant changes to law?
Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)
We do not intend to intrude upon the conversation among members of the Labour party, who seem to be having a very good time.
Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)
Just a couple of questions, Mr Taylor. Can you confirm that, in many cases, the workplace will be multi-union and that some unions will be affiliated to the Labour party, and some will not? Therefore, many people already have the choice, because they can choose which trade union to join depending on whether they want to fund the Labour party or not. I should have congratulated you on the fact that you separated Scotland from the UK when you referred to plastic bags, and I welcome that.
I must emphasise to you, as someone who is a trade union activist, that if trade union members are uncomfortable with the trade unions’ relationship with the Labour party, it is up to them to raise that, and there are plenty of democratic opportunities for them to do so. It is also up to the Labour party to justify to the trade unions why it should be funded. The political funds are not just about the Labour party; there are many organisations that receive money from political funds, such as HOPE not hate, so what impact would there be on them?
Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)
Can I ask you a question about clause 10? Some people are arguing—wrongly, in my view—that clause 10 equalises the arrangements, mirroring the situation in Northern Ireland. Do you agree that the provisions in the Bill go well beyond the current practices in Northern Ireland, which require trade union members on one occasion to contract into paying into the political fund—I repeat, on one occasion—and they are not required to renew their opt-in?
Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)
There is a suggestion that clause 10 mirrors the arrangements currently in place in Northern Ireland about opting in. The question I am asking is: do you agree that the provisions in this Bill go well beyond what is currently in operation in Northern Ireland? Trade union members there only have to opt in on one occasion.
Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
From your comments earlier, it sounded to me—I do not want to put words in your mouth—as though you were basically saying that the opt-in system that has been proposed within the time period is effectively unworkable. I would be interested in your comments on that.
Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
What would be the impact of that if it were implemented?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
I am intrigued that the Government Minister and the Whip have been going round gagging their Members from asking questions about what is a significant part of the Bill. Mr Taylor, why do you think Government Members are unwilling to ask questions about a significant part of their own Bill?
Steve Barclay (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)
On a point of order, Sir Edward. It would be completely unparliamentary for any Member to seek to gag another Member. I assure the Chair that no such attempt to gag Members has taken place. I request the hon. Gentleman to withdraw that suggestion.
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
The point has been made. Let us just live in peace and harmony.
James Cartlidge rose—
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
I see a Conservative Member wants to be ungagged.
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
May I finish my question? Mr Taylor, are you surprised that there appears to be very little Government interest in what is a significant part of their own legislation? What do you think the reasons for that might possibly be?
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
I want to raise a specific technical point. Mr Taylor, you said this is an attack on funding and that funding will go down. Surely, if people have to opt in, funding will only go down if they had not wanted to opt in in the first place.
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
But if they have been happy with that donation, your donation levels will not be affected.
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
But you seem to be saying, “If we actually ask people whether they want to contribute, we’re worried we’re going to find out some of them didn’t want to.” You are admitting that.
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
Then funding will not go down, on that basis. If they are all happy punters and happy to contribute to the Labour party, your funding will not go down.
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
Forgive me. You talk about people’s rights. You are suggesting that your funds are going to go down. That must mean that some people who are currently contributing would not want to be contributing. In other words, by defending that, you are defending the fact that someone should involuntarily be contributing to a political party against their rights. You are talking about rights; you should surely accept that point.
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
For my last point, I will simply repeat the point that I made, because it is fundamental. If they are all happy donating, you will not be losing any funds when they are asked whether they wish to opt in to making a donation.
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
We all know what we are talking about.
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
I was minus 50 then.
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
I have referred to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests as a member of the GMB and the Labour party, but, in the interests of complete clarity, I was also an officer of the TULO organisation in the northern region for many years before becoming a Member of Parliament.
Byron, can I take us back to the practical impact of this proposed legislation on trade unions and, indeed, the Labour party? Logistically, can you outline how you think this proposed legislation will impact on trade unions, in terms of getting repeated sign-up and collections of moneys, and particularly on the smaller trade unions, which often have very few members of staff? Can you outline what you think the implications of the Bill will be for those people?
Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)
May I just follow that up with one quick, straightforward question? In the legislation that trade unions operate under, in particular employment law legislation, “reasonableness” is applied everywhere. Would you regard this proposed legislation as reasonable?
Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)
Mr Taylor, have you ever made a contribution to the Conservative party by means of buying a good or service from a company whose profits from that transaction were then used to make a donation to the Conservative party?
Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)
Just one quick question, Mr Taylor. When it comes to legislation affecting elections, party political administration and funding, or trade union political funding, do you agree with me that it should have the agreement of either all the political parties represented in the House of Commons or a majority of the political parties represented in the House of Commons?
Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)
I think that is it. Thank you very much, Mr Taylor, for your evidence.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
We will now hear oral evidence from Professor Keith Ewing, professor of public law at King’s College London. This session will run until 2.30 pm. Professor Ewing, could I just outline how we are going to play this? I will ask you to introduce yourself and outline why you are here. It will then become a hearing, with Members from alternate sides asking you questions. Could you be as succinct as possible? I would urge my colleagues to do the same, but it does not always work that way. Remember that the time you are using is the only time you have, so use it well, if you can. Would you care to introduce yourself?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Professor Ewing, could you set out in a little more detail your experience working on issues around trade union law at a domestic and international level?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Yes. Your experience, background and qualifications.
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Thank you. That is very helpful. Given that level of experience, and looking at the Bill as a whole, where do you feel it falls down or potentially conflicts with both international and domestic conventions and law?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Can you expand a little on where you feel the Bill conflicts with those?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
May I ask a specific question about the certification officer? The Bill’s proposals amount to an extensive expansion of the role. We have heard from other witnesses that there is potentially a serious blurring here between the investigating, adjudicating and enforcing of complaints. Does that breach international conventions or domestic principles about natural justice and not blurring such roles in a quasi-judicial position?
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Professor Ewing, I apologise for that interruption. Sometimes technology is to blame. One of the first things people do when they get downstairs and outside is light up a cigarette and that can be a bit of a problem. Mr Doughty, would you like to continue?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Thank you, Sir Alan. I also apologise for the disruption. Sir Alan, I hope with your agreement it will be okay if we need to go on a few minutes longer.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
I have had a word with Professor Ewing and he says he might be able to finish in the timescale set, but if we cannot, we will continue.
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Thank you, Sir Alan. Professor Ewing, we were talking about the certification officer. Recalling what you were saying, essentially you are worried that a Minister—a member of the Executive—will appoint an individual who is effectively police, judge, jury and executioner with some fairly wide-ranging powers.
Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))
Thank you, Professor, for being here. I want to ask you about thresholds and that part of the Bill. I am obviously not a legal expert on rights, but I think what the threshold provision is trying to do is balance the right to strike—which certainly no one is saying should not exist—with the right of people to go about their ordinary business, send their kids to school, use the trains and tubes, gain access to hospitals and so on. That balancing seems moderate and reasonable. Do you think any weight should be given to the rights of people to go about their ordinary business? Do you agree with the general secretary of the Unite union who, you may have read, has said in principle that he can agree with the idea of thresholds and time-limiting ballots?
Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))
Thank you for that. Just so that we are clear, I understand your concerns about the details on how voting works, but in principle you think that the idea of a threshold is fine.
Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))
In your opinion, but the ILO convention does accept the principle of a threshold.
Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))
I understand, but there is no opposition to the threshold in principle under the convention.
Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)
Professor Ewing, in relation to the devolved Administrations, what impact will the Bill have on both their policies and criminal or civil law?
Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)
One last question on the thresholds. Do you think that there are also gender equality issues, where in workplaces a majority of women workers might not be able to go on strike because a shift change would impact on them more than it would on male workers?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
You talked about the ILO conventions. A great deal of your report is concerned with ECHR conventions, and I accept you cannot mention everything in your brief summary today, but would you accept that as recently as last year, the European Court acknowledged that it was legitimate for the Government to legislate to impose some constraints on article 11? Would you accept that there is a wide margin of appreciation for the Government in the way that this can be handled?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Yes.
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
No, no, and I do not think that anybody on the Government side would disagree that the right to strike should be protected and that restrictions should be justified. That is absolutely the Government’s position. Let me turn it around. Are there any cases that support your view that it is not legitimate for the Government to make proportionate restrictions under article 11?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
Okay. Can we move on to certification officers? I am thinking about the type of person who is a certification officer. It tends to be an Employment Appeal Tribunal judge or people of that type. Do you really feel it is unreasonable for others with a legitimate cause for complaint, because of the results of industrial action, to encourage the beginning of an investigatory process?
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
No, I am just suggesting that is one type of person who might feel—
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
More someone with a legitimate cause for complaint—someone who is affected by strike action.
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
I do not want to go on too long, but I was not thinking of employers; I was thinking more of those who are affected by the results of strike action.
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
The certification officer himself might be able to take a view that it was appropriate to investigate non-compliance.
Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)
His job is to investigate non-compliance.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Professor Ewing, thank you very much. You have been very helpful indeed. We will now move on to the next panel.
Examination of Witnesses
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
We will now hear oral evidence from the Royal College of Nursing, the Royal College of Midwives, the Public and Commercial Services Union, the Fire Brigades Union and, of course, the NASUWT. Ladies and gentlemen, we have until 3.5 pm at the absolute latest because of the difficulties we experienced earlier. We will allow you to introduce yourselves briefly, and the Committee will then put questions to you either collectively or individually. The Government are on the right-hand side, and the Opposition are on the left. The three main political parties in Parliament are present, and all evidence gathered will be available for other Members to browse, if they so wish.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Thank you. Before we proceed to hon. Members asking questions, can I just tell you that we have only until five minutes past 3? Our time is very brief, so please be aware of all the time you are using in the replies to the questions put to you. Try to make them succinct, because you are using each other’s time up. I am just giving you a bit of advice. If you could be helpful to both Members and yourselves, that would be much appreciated by Members.
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
I have a few short questions that I would like to put to different groups if that is okay. First, to Jon and Janet, given what we have heard about the relatively small incidence of industrial action in the history of the health sector, particularly in relation to your two bodies, fundamentally do you think that this Bill is needed?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Janet, we had a Government witness yesterday, from an organisation called 2020 Health who, you may have heard, had a whole half hour to explain that they did not appear to know anything about the Bill. Nor did they know what facilities time was. Unfortunately, you have not got very much time, but could you briefly give us an example of how facilities time benefits employees and patients?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Thank you for that. Matt, we heard some evidence from the London Fire Brigade this morning and you have referred to it. I wondered whether you wanted to respond to any of the comments and whether you could also tell us about the different approaches to industrial relations in the fire sector across the UK. Some quite important contrasts were drawn between what has happened in Wales and what happened in some disputes in London.
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
So you were surprised that he did not appear to be aware of that fact.
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
It is very concerning to hear that, and the commissioner made it clear that he would write to the Committee with some of the information that he did not appear to have at his fingertips. I hope that he will correct some of what he said in the light of what you have said to us just now.
I want to ask about devolution and perhaps this could be touched on broadly across the panel. Clearly, you all operate in public services that are, to a large extent, wholly or partially devolved across the UK. We have just heard from Professor Ewing that the Bill could lead to a fairly serious constitutional crisis in terms of cutting across the devolution settlement. How would you respond to that? Do you think that there are serious risks for relationships across Wales, Scotland and local government across England, of which the Bill shows no awareness, and does not address? I am happy to take a couple of comments, though I am sure we do not have time to hear from everyone.
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Given what you have just said and given the evidence from the Welsh Government and others, do you think that there is a serious risk here that we will end with significant legal disputes about contractual provisions that have already been entered into, particularly with regard to check-off?
Steve Barclay (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)
Sir Alan, I will just point out that Opposition Members have used up pretty much half the sitting so far, before there has been any question from Government Members.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
We have sittings such as this one to try to get the message across. I have got a little bit of leeway to gain back time; I am aware of that. But I would like to move on, because the next questioner is Edward Argar.
Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)
Mr Wrack, thank you very much for your clarification there, particularly of that court case, and thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) for his comment. Going back to the evidence from the commissioner this morning, in the course of that dispute in 2010, was access in any way to any fire station being used by contingency crews impeded by any FBU members at any point?
Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)
That is not quite what I asked; I am grateful for that, but it is not quite what I asked. Did those pickets in any way impede any ingress or egress to and from those stations?
Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)
So you say that they were picketing their place of work. What happened in general? Were there any occasions when access was physically blocked?
Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)
Would you agree or disagree with the view—I suspect that I know the answer, but I will ask the question—that what you have just said, if we accept it, that some people drove up and drove off again, shows that those people felt intimidated by the presence of those pickets and the behaviour, which caused them to drive away again?
Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)
I have a couple of very quick follow-ups. You will be familiar with the Carr report. Paragraph 4.66 refers to evidence provided by Assistant Commissioner Dave Brown on behalf of the London fire brigade, in which he made a number of allegations. I would be grateful for your reaction to them, either collectively or individually. He said that,
“tactics included…Stations left open or barricaded and fire alarms activated…Security codes at fire stations changed…Station gates padlocked and crews cars blocking forecourts preventing access for stand-in crews.”
Those are just a few of the number of things he suggested. Do you have any reaction to the assertions in that report, Mr Wrack?
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
May I point out to people giving evidence and answering questions and to Members that we are approaching having used two thirds of our time? We should make it more succinct if you want to get the answers in. I call Chris Stephens.
Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)
Thank you, Sir Alan. First, I ask the panel for their thoughts on whether they regard the threshold proposal to have any impact on women who wish to pursue industrial action. Secondly, can they give examples in relation to their political funds? I believe that they are all at the moment not affiliated to a political party. How will the Bill affect those political funds, and what organisations will it affect?
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
May I pause you for a second? We have 10 minutes remaining and four Members want to ask questions, so we need to speed up the replies and the questions.
Seema Kennedy (Conservative, South Ribble)
Dr Roach, when your members go on strike, the people affected will all have to arrange alternative childcare because of the nature of your members’ profession. In relation to clause 7, which is on the notice period, do you not recognise that giving parents 14 days, rather than seven, would give them more scope to organise alternative arrangements?
Seema Kennedy (Conservative, South Ribble)
But when there is strike action and there is disruption to children’s education and their parents’ ability to go to work, would you not recognise that giving them 14 days’ notice would give them more ample opportunity to re-arrange their lives, so that they can contribute to the economy by going to work?
Seema Kennedy (Conservative, South Ribble)
So you accept it then.
Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)
I have a question for Mr Skewes. Earlier this week, we heard from a Government witness from 2020 Health who seemed unaware that trade unions already have life and limb cover in hospitals when industrial action is taken. Do you believe that the Government’s wider proposals on the use of agency workers during strike action are required?
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Two Members want to ask questions. I am going to take them both together. If for any reason you wish to come back in the short period we have got left, I will allow that.
Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))
I have a quick question for Mr Serwotka. I understood your points about online balloting. Just so I understand, do you support the principle of a threshold for strike action, so that when there is disruption to the public services that people depend on, they know it has been backed by a reasonable number of members involved?
Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)
This is a question for Dr Roach. The NASUWT organises across England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Could you let Members know whether there is any significant difference in levels of industrial action in the four areas, where the governance is different?
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Thank you very much. That brings us to the end of the time allotted to your panel. Thank you very much for attending. If we have any queries arising from the evidence you have given, we will be in touch to ask you to reply.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
First, may I welcome you all to the Committee? It is an illustrious bunch we have in front of us who represent an awfully large body of members. It is very rare that Parliament has the opportunity to get such a group together and ask them questions. You will very quickly introduce yourselves to the Committee. We will then move on to queries and questions from Members, which will alternate between the Government and Opposition sides. We will go to Members who wish to raise questions relating to the Bill.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Thank you. Although you have chosen not to send along national officials of various sectors in your union, which is a very large group of organisations, the same rules apply. We will have a series of questions asked, with replies and opinions given back. We only have until 4.15 pm to do that, so we need to do it quite succinctly. If not, you are using your own time. Members might ask you to go on and on, but what you want to do is get as many replies across as possible.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Len, if you hand it to the Clerk, we will distribute it to all Members in due course.
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Frances, can I turn to you first? Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you said that the TUC represents 6 million workers—one tenth of the UK population. That is a huge number. Given the severe implications of the Bill for a whole range of issues and its potential impact on those individual members and, indeed, the member unions of the TUC, are you satisfied with the level of consultation and how the Government have gone about the consultation in drafting and presenting the Bill?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
So the Prime Minister is not willing to meet an organisation that represents a tenth of our population—that is quite surprising. Are you also surprised that we are discussing the Bill, in both this format and the line-by-line sessions, without having seen the responses to the consultation process from the Government or much of the secondary legislation that the Bill gives them very wide powers to implement?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Thank you. I wonder if I could turn briefly to Dave. I understand Unison has significant concerns about the aspects of the Bill that address facility time, check-off and so on. Could you briefly outline your key headline points of concern?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
That is very helpful. Turning to another section of the Bill and the provisions that deal with picketing, we have heard the police’s serious concerns, shared by many witnesses, about the workability of a number of the proposals, in particular the proposals in the consultation relating to policing Facebook and Twitter. What has your experience of picketing been? Do you think that these proposals would simply not work?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Can I ask a separate question on participation? Perhaps some of the others will want to answer; I know that Len has concerns about that. As union representatives, I am sure that you all want to increase participation in ballots and to see the maximum turnout in those. We have heard a lot about the fact that the Government do not seem to be willing to consider e-balloting, secure workplace balloting and other methods. Could you briefly comment on that, Sir Paul, and then Len? I looked closely at your evidence, Len, and you speak about Central Arbitration Committee ballots, for example, where secure workplace balloting is already used. What are your views on why the Government will not accept methods that would boost the participation that they say they want to see?
Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)
So facilitating better participation would benefit industrial relations more.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
May I just say that we have got a very short period of time left? The purpose of the session is to get in touch with you. You got in touch with us and said that you wanted to say things, and we said that we would like to ask questions of you. I have got about seven or eight Members of Parliament, on both sides, who want to do so. If you can be more succinct—that goes for Members too—we will try to get as many answers out as possible, and that may help both sides.
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
I thank all four of you for coming. I am pleased that we have focused on the thresholds issue, and I agree that it is by far the most important point. In evidence on Tuesday, we heard a large number of examples of serious disruption caused to ordinary members of the public on relatively low turnouts. For example, David Martin, who is a director of Arriva buses, which operates in London, referred to the London strike in 2012. He said:
“The fact that 17% of my staff voted and 50% of the buses did not run in London over that period of time shows us that we need a failsafe, and this Bill delivers that failsafe.”––[Official Report, Trade Union Public Bill Committee, 13 October 2015; c. 7, Q4.]
My question is for Frances O'Grady. At the beginning, you mentioned thresholds in relation to the ILO, and we are now talking about thresholds in relation to e-voting. Are you saying that you oppose the threshold change in principle or that you would accept it if it came with electronic voting?
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
When you say “what this is really about”, this is not a conspiracy. We are extremely concerned about ordinary members of the public whose lives are disrupted when schools close, when buses and trains are not available and when London comes to a standstill on the basis of a ballot that has a low turnout. If it has a high turnout, we accept that. We accept the right to strike, and we accept many of the principles upon which your organisations are based. I have a question for Sir Paul—
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
Okay. That is what it says.
In relation to the police, we heard this morning from a senior police officer who was referring to the ability to identify someone when a strike happens and how useful it would be for them if it were easier to identify the lead—the person co-ordinating it. I would be interested in your comments on that.
James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)
Not one as an MP, I must admit.
Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)
What are your opinions on the use of agency workers? What effect could that have on public safety and, where you represent healthcare workers, patient safety?
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
To continue on agency workers, we took evidence earlier from Mr Jon Skewes from the Royal College of Midwives. He mentioned how potentially disruptive it could be if midwives were to go on strike. There are two issues: the fact that it costs so much to bring in agency staff, and the need to ensure that staff have the right skills to support mums and babies. If midwives were to go on strike, it would put at risk pregnant mums and their babies. Are you saying you would not want any agency staff available at that unit if a mum was going into labour? Would you not then allow agency staff to come in to work, to help those mums and babies?
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
I am just asking as a point of principle, because Ms O'Grady said she did not want to see any agency staff. In this sector, would you not want to see any agency staff covering the shifts of striking midwives?
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
So agency staff will be brought in.
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
I just want to establish whether agency staff would be acceptable in this situation, if nobody else was available.
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
No, I do not. I was just asking because there was a huge discussion about agency staff. I want to know where the principle would stop and start.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Order. When the Chair calls for order, you will please desist. Members are asking questions. We want replies, and we do not do it as a collective; we do it individually, through the Chair. That is normal behaviour in this place.
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
You represent a large proportion of the working people in our communities and our constituencies. We heard some damning evidence this morning about what happens to people who choose not to go on strike. We heard from the London fire brigade about how difficult it is for people who choose not to go on strike to get into their fire stations and carry on with their duties, and how they are possibly putting themselves at risk by continuing to go into work.
We also heard evidence from SITA. In its written evidence, it told us that non-striking workers during a strike in Doncaster in 2011 had been subject to “sabotage of private property”. Its evidence goes on to say that
“strikers visited the homes of workers, slashing car tyres and throwing paint stripper over a car. The Working Men’s Club used by a non-striker was contacted by a striker…who threatened the steward of the club that if they allowed him to use the bar, the club would be vandalised. The club barred the non-striker.”
How are you able to represent your non-striking union members and other workers? Who is supporting them?
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
It is not for me to put forward; it was evidence given by witnesses.
Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)
The 2010 dispute was discussed earlier on. This evidence from 2011 is that there are people who wish to go to work but feel intimidated.