Trade Union Bill

Public Bill Committee, 13 October 2015.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I have a few preliminary points. Welcome to this Bill Committee. Today, we will consider the programme motion on the amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about our questions before the oral evidence sessions. We will then have a motion to enable the reporting of written evidence for publication. Please turn off your mobile phones. Banned substances such as tea and coffee are not allowed. I am sure that, in view of the time available, we can take these early motions without debate. As we are now sitting in a public session, it might be a good point for anyone who wishes to make a declaration of interest to do so now.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

I declare my membership of Unison and my trade union activity over the past 20 years as a trade union activist prior to my election.

Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

I declare my membership of Unite the union and my trade union membership and representation as a senior rep over the past 14 years.

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

I am a former Community trade union officer, current Community trade union member and chair of the Community parliamentary group.

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

I am a member of the GMB and a former trade union official.

Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Prior to the election in May, I was a director and partner of Thompsons Solicitors LLP, which is giving evidence to the Committee. I am also the partner of the chief executive of Thompsons, who is giving evidence to the Committee. Clients of my former firm included the Royal College of Midwives, GMB, Unison and Unite, which are giving evidence to the Committee. Finally, I am a member of GMB and of Unison.

Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)

I am a member of Unison and Unite the union.

Jessica Morden (Labour, Newport East)

I am a member of the GMB union.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I am a member of the GMB union, and I draw attention to my declaration on the register of interests.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

On the basis of the motion, the deadline for amendments to be considered at the first line-by-line sittings of the Committee on 20 October is Thursday 15 October.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room. We will now go briefly into a private session—I apologise to the people sitting in the Public Gallery—to decide our line of questioning.

Examination of Witnesses

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

Good morning and welcome to the Trade Union Bill. We are joined by John Cridland, who is the director general of the Confederation of British Industry, Dr Adam Marshall, who is executive director of policy and external affairs at the British Chambers of Commerce, and David Martin, who is chief executive of Arriva plc. This session will last until 10.15 am, so it will be fairly snappy. We will go from Opposition to Government side, and Members will take this as they wish.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

First, may I say it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward? I welcome all members of the Committee to the evidence sessions and thank the witnesses for making themselves available this morning.

I have a few questions. My first is to the CBI and the BCC. The CBI specifically says in its written evidence that

“Business backs plans to modernise our industrial relations framework.”

Can you explain whether you think there is a unified view across business and industry in support of all the measures in the Bill? Given that you specifically refer to modernisation, do you—perhaps the BCC can answer this as well—support measures to introduce e-balloting and secure workplace balloting to increase participation in the most modern ways possible?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

May I follow up on that point? Even though e-balloting is used by a number of banks, building societies and other organisations, you do not believe that it is secure.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Do you accept that industrial action is at a 30-year low? Therefore, why is there a need to tighten up the legislation in such a draconian way as the Bill proposes?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Mr Martin, can you tell us about your experience of industrial relations? There have been a number of high-profile cases where there have been findings against Arriva in its relations with union members and others. Can you tell us a little bit about your company’s experience and why you think this Bill is so necessary?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Do you accept broadly, though, that the vast majority of strikes in the transport sector have met the thresholds as envisaged by this Bill, including those in the rail and bus sectors?

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

I do not want to be too formal and restrict people to one question, and the main Opposition spokesman needs some latitude, but just keep an eye on the time everybody, and if you can just ask one question, fine. All three witnesses do not have to answer everybody; you can divide it up between yourselves.

John Howell (Conservative, Henley)

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. The Bill has already been described by Mr Doughty as “draconian”. Can you give me your impression of how much this is a fundamental change to the way that trade unions operate and how much you think it is more of a step-by-step increase in the modernisation of the trade union movement?

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. My question is for the CBI. First, I was a bit unclear in your answer to my colleague about secure workplace balloting. You have said that trade union recognition ballots work well, but in trade union recognition ballots there is scope for secure workplace balloting. Can you clarify that?

Secondly, in your submission, you say that you are looking to extend the notice periods from seven days to 14 days on either side. That is 28 days in total, even without a ballot period. Do you not think that seven days’ notice to ballot and seven days’ notice to strike, with a period in between of at least four working days, is sufficient for a business to look at what they need to do and the steps that need to take place for disruption and any industrial action?

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

Part of the difficulty, though, is that the notice for compulsory redundancy is now 45 days. The danger of the Bill—I am curious to hear your views on this—is that trade unions will have to ballot right away when an employer issues a statutory redundancy notice, because it is now 45 days. Given the timescale, does it not worry you that there will actually be more balloting, rather than less?

James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. Dr Marshall, you raised the point about productivity, and I just want to ask about some of the wider economic impact of the Bill, if it is passed—in particular, the impact on investment, including inward investment, and on making the UK an attractive place to invest, and perhaps, Mr Martin, in terms of your industry, on whether having greater confidence about industrial relations will enable you to have stronger management and therefore attract more investment into it.

James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)

Mr Martin has obviously had some experience of industrial action. If his management were more confident in the future that there would be less disruption, would that enable his company to attract more investment, to expand and all those things that we want to see across industry?

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

If you want to ask a question, try to give us plenty of warning, so that we can fit you all in. It is going well at the moment; I hope that we will get everyone in.

Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward.

From the perspective of the three witnesses, what are the main drivers of supporting this Bill? We have heard that industrial action involving strike action is at a 30-year low, but the witness from the British Chambers of Commerce has said that industrial action has an impact, for instance, on productivity. Does strike action have a detrimental impact on productivity that is as bad as other factors in the economy, for instance, bearing in mind that, overall, British workers are about 25% behind French workers in terms of productivity? Is it factors such as industrial action that are causing that 25% gap? I doubt it, given the 30-year low in strike action. I also wonder whether you are really supporting this Bill just because it is an opportunist-type thing—the opportunity presents itself, and therefore we might as well go gung-ho and support it.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

You can answer any way you want.

Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)

But in your evidence you gave two London examples. Are we using a national sledgehammer to crack a London nut?

Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)

Do you agree that the CBI has a major concern about the impact on productivity and that there are clearly other factors in the economy that are impacting more on productivity at the moment than industrial action?

Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)

In the aftermath of this session, will you write to us to present us with the evidence you have to back up those statements?

Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))

Thank you all very much for being here. I am sure that everyone here agrees that the intimidation of non-striking workers and illegal activity on picket lines is wrong and that it is concerning to read reports of that. What are your experiences of picketing from an employer perspective? What are your thoughts on the current status of the code of practice and the provisions in the Bill to put that on a statutory footing? Do you think it does enough to reduce the concerns that some of us might have about behaviour in this area?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

As ever, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward.

Dr Marshall, I want to come back to something you have just said. What evidence are you referring to when you talk about all the indirect days lost? You have referred to that quite considerably in your evidence, but you then said that you looked to see what there is. Do you have any evidence?

You have also talked at length about what your members think. Can you advise the Committee on what surveys or interaction you have had with your members on the Bill and what came out as their top five priorities? Do the features in the Bill figure in that?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

So you have no statistics?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

And the second part of my question about your membership?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

To follow that up, you have said at length in all your evidence on this point that you are representing the views of your membership on this, but how can you say that if you have not surveyed members and asked them the question?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

So this is subjective evidence that you are talking about? You have not specifically had any direct comments on this because you have not asked the question?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

Have you asked the question?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

So this is subjective evidence, with no objective evidence to back up what you are saying?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

Is that correct?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

Where is it?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

It does not exist?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

Does it exist to present to the Committee, to write to us about, to show us?

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

Normally, we would go to the Government and then to Labour, but I do not want to be too formal. If somebody is bursting to ask a really telling supplementary, they can come in. I think Steve Doughty is burning to ask a question.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Just to follow on this point specifically, I am also concerned about the lack of evidence. We have a bit of evidence here that findings from the 2011 workplace employment relations survey revealed that despite an increase in public sector strikes in 2010-11, only 3% of managers were experiencing any disruption as a result of strikes in another workplace. So that is a piece of evidence and I wonder if you or the CBI have any comments on that: very low levels of industrial action and then very low levels of disruption shown in an actual survey, actually evidenced in figures, unlike some of the comments that we have heard from the panel.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

With respect, you are saying that it is very difficult, but you and Dr Marshall are making some very broad statements about this issue without having evidence to back them up. That is what I do not understand. It is a very broad assertion to make.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

But we are talking about the economy as a whole.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

We had better move on because the questioners are piling in.

Nusrat Ghani (Conservative, Wealden)

You talked about work environments modernising and work practices modernising. I think one of the big changes in the last decade or so is the fact that people want more confidence in companies and public bodies, which means that they have to be more transparent and accountable. One of the clauses in the Bill wants to bring trade union practice up to date with existing best practices as public bodies have to publish all spending over £500. Do you agree with that?

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

Going back to Stephen’s question about the clause, where you are saying that you want trade unions to support a Bill that has a clause providing that there should be more transparency on trade union spending. That is possibly one of the areas in this country which shows the most transparency on spending. You have then come here, and Dr Marshall has given evidence to this Committee, providing no evidence for your statements. Do you think that may undermine your argument in support of the Bill? You are asking for that type of legislation to be put through, but we still have not been given any objective evidence.

Going back to an earlier comment, Mr Cridland, you talked about concern about disruption and said that, to provide more confidence, you wanted to support this Bill to stop potential trade union actions, yet you also said that it was too difficult to investigate an illustrative example about striking workers in the education sector. Your colleague, Dr Marshall, also said that those investigations had not been conducted. What is the Committee supposed to believe? We are getting subjective statements, but not one of you can show us any objective investigation into your own members’ views on this matter.

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

But you have not asked your members at all or done any objective studies among your own members, either of you. Has the CBI?

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

Here is a question that you may have asked your members. At the moment I do not think that you have asked your members any question whatever, but here is a question. Have you asked your members about the potential for the rise in wildcat strike action by non-unionised workforces?

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

By non-unionised workforces? Because in the private sector, of course, the vast majority of workplaces are non-unionised.

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

What would your interpretation be in relation to this Bill?

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

So there is no concern about rising wildcat action at all?

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

That conclusion was based on no objective evidence from your members.

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

I am just a member of the Committee trying to get objective answers to questions.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

Let him answer the question.

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

So to reiterate, still no objective evidence yet?

Seema Kennedy (Conservative, South Ribble)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. Thank you to the witnesses. We have spoken about certainty and clarity in business. Of course, the most essential component of any business is the employees. Will the clear description of the trade dispute and the planned industrial action, which will now appear on the ballot papers, provide more clarity for union members and help them to know what they are or are not voting for?

Seema Kennedy (Conservative, South Ribble)

I do not understand what you mean.

Seema Kennedy (Conservative, South Ribble)

So you think that it is better for them to understand exactly what they are voting for—to give everybody in a business clarity. That would help to cement better relations between employers and employees.

Seema Kennedy (Conservative, South Ribble)

And this would be part of it.

Jessica Morden (Labour, Newport East)

Can I ask the CBI and the British Chambers of Commerce, are your members concerned about the proposals in the Bill that mean that details of disputes between employers and unions will be posted on the certification officer’s website?

Jessica Morden (Labour, Newport East)

So have you consulted with your members on this at all?

Jessica Morden (Labour, Newport East)

Does that mean that you have consulted?

Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. As a former Government lawyer, compliance is always of enormous interest to me. Do you feel—this is for all of you—that the enhancements to the role of certification officer are really sufficient and that they will make a difference?

Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)

The CBI, I know, feels strongly about this, as you have indicated. Do you feel that anything further could be done?

Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

Is it reasonable that clause 13 would give a Minister the power to overrule agreements made by trade unions and employers about the appropriate amount of facility time? Are your members concerned that that could undermine partnership working in the workplace and lead to further disruption?

Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

You spoke about the importance of communication with your workers and harmonious employee relations. Have you consulted the workforce at all about their views?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I just want to push John on whom he is representing. I would contend that there are actually a number of voices in business and industry who are concerned that the Bill will do the opposite and will promote less positive industrial relations, which could have an impact on productivity and the ability to negotiate. A whole series of measures in the Bill could foster dissent rather than the agreements and constructive relationships that lead to avoiding industrial action in the first place. I was on a panel with a CBI representative a couple of weeks ago and a representative of a major industrial employers’ organisation said, “Let’s put it this way: we didn’t call for this Bill.” Could you just explain, very clearly, whom you are representing and whether there is an absolute consensus of view across business and industry that this is a good thing for business and the economy as a whole?

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

After this one brisk answer, we have one more question and we must then wrap up on time.

Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)

Thank you for allowing me to ask a question just before the end, Sir Edward.

You have all rightly made clear your views about the important and positive role that you see trade unions playing. Equally, you have touched on the impact that stoppages have in terms of the economy, productivity and people’s lives and how it disrupts them. I agree that the ONS being able to collect statistics around indirect impact would be a benefit to all of us, wherever one stands in this debate, but it is clear and self-evident that any stoppage in a vital public service will inevitably have an impact indirectly on days lost.

As a final, broad-brush question, do you think that, given all that and given the discussions that we have already had with you, the Bill strikes the right balance between the rights of unions and members and a recognition of their positive role and the rights of businesses and the public to get on with working and producing?

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

Thank you, gentlemen. That concludes our evidence session with you. Thank you for answering our questions in such a competent and brisk way. We are very grateful.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

Good morning. Our next session will last for half an hour. We have got Roy Rickhuss, general secretary of Community, and John Hannett, general secretary of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers. You are very welcome to our morning session. Members will ask you questions, and they may ask you a supplementary question—it is quite relaxed. We will try to get everyone in who wants to ask you a question in the next half an hour.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

A question first to Roy and then one to John. In terms of the steel industry’s history and industrial relations in the industry as a whole over the past 20 years, where do you think positive industrial relations have helped for both employees and employers in what are clearly difficult times? I particularly commend your work on the situation at SSI, but will you speak in general terms about what benefits a positive relationship between trade unions and employers can have in a crucial industry?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Do you think that the Bill risks worsening industrial relations across the economy as a whole?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

John, as you represent a significant number of members in a diffuse sector, what are the Bill’s specific problems and challenges for your members? I wonder in particular what your views are about the Government’s proposals on check-off.

John Howell (Conservative, Henley)

Can I move you on to some questions about the political levy? It seems to me that there is a fundamental principle of fairness in this. Voluntary funds, which is what the political levy is, should not be taken out of someone’s pay packet without their consent. Do you agree with that?

John Howell (Conservative, Henley)

Do you think that offers the sort of consumer protection that others outside of the trade union movement would expect in being able to deal with the political levy?

John Howell (Conservative, Henley)

Do you think that is applicable right across the board, to other trade unions? You have said what the position is in your own union.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

Okay. We have a long list of questions. You are warming up your audience, gentlemen, so we will be as brisk as we can.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

Gentlemen, both of you have extensive trade union experience. In your experience, what factors lead to low turnouts when it comes to ballots? Do you support the modernisation of the ballot process—for example, secure workplace balloting? Do you think that it is going to be more difficult to obtain industrial action on issues where there are now 45-day notices of changes to terms and conditions and voluntary redundancy? Lastly, do you think that the picket proposals will lead to more blacklisting?

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

I still have seven people who want to ask questions, so from now on we will have one question and one brisk answer, if you do not mind.

Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))

Thank you, Sir Edward. I very much echo the comments in your submission that responsible trade unions are a force for good in the workplace and the community, so thank you for that.

I just want to return to the topic of the political levy. I was glad to hear that both of you, on your membership form, specifically provide members with the information to opt out. It turns out that that is not as common as you would think and many other unions do not do that. Given what you have said about the importance of transparency and the reason for you to have put that on the form, do you think that it is appropriate that other unions do not include that information?

Jessica Morden (Labour, Newport East)

Can I ask Mr Hannett a specific question? You have run campaigns such as “Freedom From Fear”, which is about highlighting abuse against workers in retail and other such sectors. Can you tell the Committee how the measures in clause 11 might affect your ability to run such non-political campaigns?

Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)

You have been very reasonable and measured in your evidence, so I thank you for that. Going back to the importance of thresholds, do you agree with Mr McCluskey when he writes to the Prime Minister:

“No one, of course, can be happy when strike action takes place—especially in services on which the public depend—on the basis of the active endorsement of only a minority of trade union members affected”,

and that that clearly helps to make the case for the proposed thresholds?

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

If you want to add more you can always write to us. Do not feel constrained in that sense. We are anxious to hear the whole story.

Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. Mr Rickhuss, I have a question about the related consultation on agency workers. Have you received any assurances from the Minister that insufficiently trained workers will not be used in safety-critical positions in your industry during industrial action?

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

I know that our next question will be very brief and to the point and our trade union team will give just one quick answer.

James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)

I want to ask John Hannett—I know you are on the Low Pay Commission and that you have many workers at Tesco, many of whom will be mums, who work part-time, probably at the lower end of the pay scale. I am sure that you will agree they are precisely the sorts of people who suffer when the local school closes or when buses are on strike and that—going back to the thresholds, which is the most important part of the Bill—it is in their interests that we have very reasonable thresholds. On that basis, would you agree that the thresholds that we are putting forward are reasonable?

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

Good morning, Roy and John. I wanted to ask your opinion of the CBI’s evidence, in which they talked about facility time being more of an issue in the public sector than in the private sector. Roy, you know—being general secretary for workers represented in companies such as Tata, Celsa, Outokumpu, Forgemasters or Caparo—and I know, that the facility time agreed on those sites provides health and safety reps trained by the unions, who often become the next health and safety managers on site—for free for those companies. Will you go into the facility time implications that could become apparent on COMAH site safe workplaces?

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

Would you also say that they get the technical expertise from the shop floor, which improves efficiency on site?

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

Okay. Very quick questions and answers now. Seema Kennedy.

Seema Kennedy (Conservative, South Ribble)

Mr Rickhuss, in your written submission you bring out the point that you think that the Bill is going to put too much power in the hands of employers, but would you not agree that those affected by strikes in education and transport have no power at all? Also, when we have very low turnouts, those people are disproportionately powerful, because they can still bring a city to a standstill or close down an entire education system.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

Okay. I have to stop you there—I think the Minister wants to have the last shout.

Nicholas Boles (Conservative, Grantham and Stamford)

Gentlemen, thank you very much for coming. We are obviously not going to agree on every point in the Bill, but I salute you both as absolute exemplars of trade unions working at their best. In particular, Mr Rickhuss—I do not know whether I have pronounced your name correctly—I wanted to say that as well as having responsibility for the Bill I am the Skills Minister, and if there is anything I can do to help you in dealing with the dreadful situation for the thousands of your members in Redcar, please come directly to me, as I would like to do whatever I can.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

Do you want to say anything in conclusion, gentlemen?

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

Thank you, gentlemen, for the impressive way you have answered our questions. That concludes this part of the sitting.

Examination of witnesses.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

For our last session this morning we have Stephen Cavalier, chief executive of Thompsons Solicitors, and Mike Emmott, senior policy adviser at the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development. We have half an hour.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I have two questions each for you. Mike, your organisation has been very clear about its concerns about the Bill, which has been described as counterproductive and as having potential unintended consequences. Given your representation of members working in HR who obviously have daily front-line experience of dealing with trade unions, industrial disputes and individual disputes, will you explain why you came to those conclusions about the Bill?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Okay. That is very helpful.

Steve, you and Thompsons have said that significant aspects of the Bill are essentially unworkable. Will you explain why you believe that to be the case and whether you believe that the Bill will actually lead to an increase in probably expensive litigation if, as you say, parts of the Bill are unworkable or unenforceable?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

May I ask a specific question about clause 14 and the certification officer? Wide-ranging powers are being suggested with regard to changing the role of the certification officer. Essentially, the certification officer will be able to bring a complaint, investigate it, decide on which witnesses, make decisions over the matter, impose fines and enforce them. Do you think that creates a very unwelcome blurring of the lines between investigator and adjudicator?

John Howell (Conservative, Henley)

We heard from the CBI and the British Chambers of Commerce that all this Bill does is modernise the way in which trade unions behave. It does not introduce a fundamental change in the trade union rules that apply, so it is very difficult in that circumstance to understand why you describe the Bill as unlawful and unwarranted. In the example that you use of not being able to tell what the nature of the dispute is, surely it is in the interests of transparency that that should be settled and be clearly on the ballot paper.

Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

The Government are consulting on draft regulations that would repeal the restriction on providing agency staff during industrial disputes. What are your views on these proposed changes? Could they further undermine industrial relations?

Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)

My questions really relate to the certification officer, which you present in your evidence as a sort of big bad wolf, and you seem very concerned about the prospect of the additional powers. I put it to you that really the prospect of having a certification officer is surely a sensible solution to difficulties with compliance, and an appropriate response to situations where non-compliance may have occurred. What strikes you as so outrageous about having to produce documents?

Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)

But would you agree that the purpose is to establish whether or not there has been non-compliance?

Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)

It is not unreasonable, though, to ask that the certification officer be able to have documents produced to him, is it?

Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)

Forgive me, if the certification officer has a concern, he should surely—

Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)

But you are not happy for him to self-generate concerns.

Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)

I do not want to hog the time.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

No, do not hog it. I call Ian Mearns.

Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)

I am grateful, Sir Edward. I understand from social media links that I read yesterday that many of the suggestions in the consultation on the Trade Union Bill are likely to be withdrawn, although we have not had that confirmed yet. I find that disappointing, because I was personally looking forward to a sustained bout of wildcat or secondary tweeting. The Government’s proposals treat abstentions as no votes. How would it impact, for instance, on the likelihood of a trade union ballot reaching a threshold if everyone who wants to vote no just abstains? Would that raise any prospect of legal challenge, given that the ILO has confirmed that only votes cast should be taken into account in industrial action ballots?

Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)

In terms of an international comparator, who would this provision put us in line with?

Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)

So, for UK, read Bulgaria.

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

We do not want any anti-Bulgaria comments.

Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))

Thank you both for giving up your time today. I want to turn to the clauses about the transparency of political donations. Stephen, I noticed that in your submission you made the point that you do not think any other bodies are subject to similar provisions. I am not a lawyer, so perhaps you can help me, because my understanding from my business life is that the Companies Act 2006 requires the annual disclosure of political donations by companies and, further than that, requires active shareholder consent and a resolution to be passed, rather than an opt-out system, which is obviously a higher threshold than what we have today. I think you used the language “oppressive”. Would you consider the system of corporate donations we have today to be oppressive?

Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))

The difference would be that a company cannot just take money from shareholders, give it to political parties and ask shareholders to opt out; they have to acquire active shareholder consent. Unions today do not have to do that. Do you think that balance is right?

Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))

This is the basic issue of fairness—of people’s contributions being taken without their active consent at the time of membership. We heard in earlier evidence that some unions support that but it is very much not the widespread practice among all unions to provide that information to their members. If you support transparency, it is clear today that that transparency does not exist across the entire board.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

I have several questions. First, do you agree that there is a danger in introducing thresholds—the impact that it will have on some gender equality issues, for example? Shift changes impact workers trying to pursue equal pay issues and the like. Secondly, is there a new danger of public bodies having to reissue new, individual contracts on the basis of opportunities to check-off and those sorts of issues? Do you see any impact on the devolved Administrations given that your organisation has offices across the UK?

James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)

Thank you both for coming. You have both spoken about thresholds and their potential impact, but neither of you seem to have focused on the key point that matters to the country at large, which is that it is so unfair to our commuters, our parents and so on that their public services can be brought down for days on low turnouts. We heard earlier from Arriva that on a 17% ballot, 50% of their buses were out for a day, causing massive disruption to its passengers. Do you not accept, in principle, that it is right to deal with that?

James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)

The point is not whether it makes it more or less likely, in my view. The point is that if the strike goes ahead with the sort of turnout we will require, the public are much more likely to accept it. That is surely the point. At the moment, these strikes are happening on a very low turnout. Do you accept that we are right to deal with that?

James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)

So you do not think we should be doing anything about thresholds. You think it is right that schools, buses and other major public services can be brought down for a day or more on the basis of very low turnouts. In principle, do you think that is fair?

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

The last question will be from Stephen Doughty.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

We have heard a lot about schools, hospitals and transport. Obviously, those are devolved matters. We are hearing from the Scottish and Welsh Governments later on today. In your view, is there a fundamental breach of the devolution settlement here and potential legal proceedings as a result of some of the measures in the Bill impacting on decisions that are actually fully devolved to those Governments and, indeed, in a number of cases, to local governments across England?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Do you agree with that, Mike? Do you think there is a risk here? You deal with Governments, public services and businesses across the UK. Do you think there is a problem here in terms of devolution?

Edward Leigh (Conservative, Gainsborough)

We have come to the end of our time. Thank you for speaking to us. I thank the Members. We are going to adjourn until 2 pm, when my colleague Sir Alan Meale will take the Chair. He is a very kindly gentleman, so I hope you will be equally well behaved with him. It has been a very good session, and everyone has got in who wanted to.

Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)

Order. We will now hear oral evidence from 2020 Health. Ms Manning, Members on either side of the room will be asking questions, but please give us a brief introduction first. We have to finish at 2.30 pm.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you Sir Alan. I welcome you to the Chair and hope that you will enjoy proceedings with us over the coming weeks.

Julia, I was not aware of your organisation before seeing you were giving evidence today. Could you clarify if you have ever had any associations with any political party in the past? Does your organisation or anybody in a senior position or present directors have any political affiliations?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Am I correct that your current president is a former Conservative MP as well? Is that right?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes, Thomas Stuttaford.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

But he was involved?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

And he is a former Conservative MP. Is that correct?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Why do you think this Bill is necessary, particularly given the lack of industrial action in the health sector? The RCM has obviously not authorised industrial action before; it was the first time the RCM had gone on strike in its 134-year history. Given that, why is this Bill so needed in the health sector?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I am interested in that because you are talking about the relationships that exist in the health service and that ethos of patient care and so on. I am well aware that concerns about the Bill have been expressed to Ministers in writing and submissions from senior figures in the NHS, who have made a point of emphasising their strong partnership arrangements with trade unions and the fact that they are worried that the Bill is going to put that at risk—in jeopardy. In one letter that I have seen they say that it will make us less able to agree solutions locally to manage any potential impacts of any actions in the future. Would you agree that there is a serious risk that the Bill will put at risk those type of partnership arrangements that have ensured that patient care is the focus, even when there are industrial disputes?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Even though there has not been such action, as you have accepted, in terms of the RCN and the RCM and many other bodies?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

For the first time in 156 years.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Okay. I have a specific question about devolution. Do you operate just in England, or do you operate across the UK?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

What do you make of the position of the Welsh Government, and, I believe, the Scottish Government as well, that significant parts of the Bill cut across the devolution settlement? These are fully devolved matters—health is a fully devolved matter, and yet the Bill effectively interferes in relationships that the devolved Governments have with the health sector.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

So you would agree that the Welsh Government and the Scottish Government should have the freedom to be able to determine those local relationships, rather than being interfered in by the Bill?

John Howell (Conservative, Henley)

The health service would be subject to the 40% threshold for strikes. Do you think that that has been drawn widely enough, and would you like to see any other bits of the health service included in that?

John Howell (Conservative, Henley)

So you would like to see those included.

John Howell (Conservative, Henley)

What do you think the effect of the Bill will be on patients seeking healthcare?

John Howell (Conservative, Henley)

Would you like to give us a view of what you think it will look like, and how the Bill would affect that in five to 10 years’ time?

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alan.

I would first like to ask: are you aware that the current law in terms of trade unions participating in industrial action is that they must provide life and limb cover? If so, does that assuage your fears? In addition, what surveys have you taken of the members in your organisation? You did intimate to Mr Doughty that you are organised across the UK. Also, do you believe that, with any changes at all within any of the health services across the UK, there has to be a negotiated change and a mutual partnership arrangement between employers and the trade unions?

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

Sorry, it is life and limb cover. Trade unions are legally obliged to provide life and limb cover in any industrial action.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

Basically, are you aware that trade unions have to provide life and limb cover in an industrial dispute? Does that assuage your fears of what is currently taking place in the workplace? Are you more relaxed that because a trade union under current law has to provide life and limb cover that you are comfortable with that? You have raised a lot of points on some of the earlier questions about the impact on patients.

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

Do you know what life and limb cover actually is?

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

In an industrial dispute a trade union is obliged to maintain services while workers are on strike, and to provide cover in case of emergencies: health and safety emergencies, for example. In the NHS, there would have to be some sort of provision for those who are critically ill. Have you considered the life and limb cover issues that are in existing trade union legislation?

Victoria Prentis (Conservative, Banbury)

Going back to devolution, on which I recognise you are avowedly not an expert, take it from me that health is a devolved issue. I think my colleague mentioned that. Do you view the Bill as being concerned more with employment and industrial relations than health? Obviously, you look at it from a health perspective, but in your mind, what is the Bill concerned with?

Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Can I ask you about clauses 12 and 13? They propose to change the current arrangements for facility time, and facility time operates within the NHS. What do you know about the current arrangements and what do you consider their benefits?

Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)

You do not know anything about facility time?

Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))

Concerning patients’ access to healthcare, as you mentioned, when there are strikes in other sectors outside healthcare, for example, in transport or schools, presumably that impacts a lot of people who are employed by the NHS or other healthcare operators. Do you have any thoughts on the disruption that strikes in those sectors have caused in healthcare and in the NHS, and do you think that this Bill will at all improve patients’ access to healthcare in those circumstances?

Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

I wonder what your views are on the opinions of the Royal College of Nursing, the Royal College of Midwives, the British Medical Association and the Society of Radiographers, which all state that there are aspects of this Bill that are deeply concerning to them with regard to patient care. What would your response be in that regard?

Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

Yes. For example, the RCM has spoken about the use of agency workers, which it describes as being potentially detrimental to patient care, in relation to those workers’ ability to understand patient care regulations within the workplace and so on.

Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

The RCN opposes the Bill. If the Bill is enacted, the RCN says, it

“could have serious consequences for productivity and morale in the NHS”,

and therefore it poses a threat to patient care.

Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

But you have no concerns that your views appear to be in opposition to all these bodies, which represent medical and nursing staff and which are concerned about patient care, as well as the impact on it?

James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)

It is a pleasure to serve under you for the first time, Sir Alan.

Thank you, Julia, for coming in. I have read many of your organisation’s reports; they are incredibly authoritative and look at many wider issues of health, including stress. The nub of this Bill—the biggest issue—is when cities and economies are paralysed by major strikes that are called on a low turnout. I think that is the biggest issue out there for the man or woman in the street. Those days are incredibly stressful for people who have to reorganise their childcare and who cannot get a train, so that they have to stand in a rugby scrum to get on a bus. But it is a serious point—commuting is one of the most stressful activities that we now do—and so I would like to have your thoughts on whether we can make life easier for people and have less stress by having fewer such disturbances.

Tom Blenkinsop (Labour, Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland)

I was going to ask a question, but you actually answered it in your previous response about the exception to the rule in relation to how industrial action might affect access to services for patients. How often, in your opinion, do the exceptional circumstances that you are coming out with actually happen?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Going back to the fundamentals of why you are appearing and giving evidence today, why did you think you were called to give evidence on the Bill? Why were you asked as a Government witness? Has your organisation lobbied for the Bill and the measures in it? Have you been meeting with Ministers arguing for the measures in the Bill?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Sorry, but just to clarify, you did not ask for the Bill before it was published? Your organisation has not published a report or given a submission?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

You have not requested the Bill?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

You just said that your organisation has a strong record on representing patient interests. In what way do you engage with patients? How representative are you? Are you represented across the country? How do you conduct that information-gathering exercise? How can you validate what you are saying in terms of representing people? Representation is a strong word.

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

To follow up on that, I represent a constituency in the north-east of England. I am not aware of anything you have done with patient interest in the north-east of England. You might have done something. How have you looked at things in the north-east, for instance, in terms of engaging with representing patients? Not speaking to charities or anything else, but representing patients, which is the term you used.

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

How many people attended?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

About 30 out of a population of 4 million? Out of a population of 4 million in the north-east, about 30 people attended a workshop about one specific thing. Would you say that that represents patient interest?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

I totally accept that, but you said you represent patient interest. Would you like to amend that? Is it still your view that a workshop of 30 people out of a population of four million—

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

That is absolutely fine, but I question whether that is actually representing patient interest, which is what you said your organisation does. I struggle with the concept that your organisation is a representative body of patient interest. That is the point I am getting at. I am not having a go at any of the work you have done or how you have done it, but I struggle to reconcile what you said your organisation is there for—representing patient interest—with what you outlined that your organisation actually does.

Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)

This will be the last question: we are running out of time.

Edward Argar (Conservative, Charnwood)

Clearly it is in patient interests not to have treatment disrupted by action taken in respect of stoppages with a very small turnout. We heard this morning, and I think we all agree, that it would be useful if there were statistics—and we are not aware of any—that quantified the indirect consequence of stoppages in terms of days lost and disruption. In your experience, and recognising that we have not got those figures, would you assess, from your research, your conversations and the work you have done, that the impact on patients has been significant in the past?

Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)

Thank you, Ms Manning, for giving evidence to the Committee.

Examination of Witnesses

Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)

We will now move on to the next section of our investigation and take evidence from Janet Cooke, chief executive of London TravelWatch, and David Sidebottom, the passenger team director at Transport Focus. You have 45 minutes to answer questions, and it will be a question and answer session throughout. Before we start, I will just ask you to give a quick résumé of your situation and why you are here—briefly, if you can, for the members of the Committee, so that we can get on with the job of asking the questions. Ms Cooke, would you like to start?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Recognising what you have both said about independence and the role of an NDPB, have you, on behalf of those you represent, made representations to the Government arguing for the measures that are set out in the Bill?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

And have any of the individuals or groups that you represent commented on any parts of the Bill, to your knowledge, in any great detail?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

So why do you think you have both been invited here today?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

But you do not have a view on how those should be dealt with.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

There was a report from the GLA in 2011 and an independent review, both of which said that there needs to be an emphasis on the employer creating the conditions for dialogue to improve industrial relations, particularly in the transport sector, and thereby reducing disruption to service users. Are you able to comment on any progress in implementing those recommendations from the 2011 report from the GLA?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I assume you both also deal with complaints about passenger fares, increases and issues around ticketing and so on. Would you be able to comment on the role that trade unions have played in highlighting passenger concerns similar to those you are representing on the rise in fare complexity and so on?

Seema Kennedy (Conservative, South Ribble)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Alan. This is a question for both witnesses. You have spoken about the threat of action on the railways in particular. Do you have experience of people saying to you, “I am worried about the strike”, and perhaps changing their travel patterns and pushing traffic on to the roads and off the railways and the underground—all parts of TfL and the commuter lines—because of the threat of action?

Seema Kennedy (Conservative, South Ribble)

So you think overall that the threat of strikes can have a much broader effect that is perhaps difficult to quantify.

Seema Kennedy (Conservative, South Ribble)

In what people submit to you, do they talk about crowding, the stress in terms of organising their lives, business things and childcare, and about travelling on very crowded buses?

Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I must apologise, Sir Alan. I did not say in my previous intervention that it was a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.

I have a question for Janet, if I may. You did some research, in May 2014 I think, about the dangers presented by overcrowding on the London underground. Many employees on the underground share those concerns. Do you think it is right that they should have the right to take industrial action to address their and passengers’ health and safety concerns?

Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Would you accept that trade unions have a role to play in highlighting those sorts of issues, including health and safety?

Jo Stevens (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Do you also accept, if I do not push you too far into areas into which you do not want to stray, that facility time in the workplace— trade unions having time to carry out trade union duties— helps in generating those issues and resolving things such as health and safety concerns about overcrowding?

John Howell (Conservative, Henley)

Do you think that the balance is right in the Bill? Is it likely to have an adverse effect on industrial relations?

John Howell (Conservative, Henley)

I am slightly surprised that you do not have a firmer view on that, and on the balance between people’s ability to strike and the enormous impact on the travelling public.

John Howell (Conservative, Henley)

Would you like to sum up the overall impact?

Chris Stephens (Scottish National Party, Glasgow South West)

I just have one question for the organisations. If for any reason existing staff, in this case train drivers or bus drivers, were replaced by agency workers, who would be inadequately trained, that would cause both your organisations concern for passenger safety.

James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)

I want to focus on the point about timing of ballots. You may be aware that the Bill introduces a four-month time limit. You are talking about the uncertainty caused by striking. It seems that it is on the transport network that these long-standing ballots have been used. What is your view? Do you support that time limit, so that there is greater certainty for yourselves and your passengers?

James Cartlidge (Conservative, South Suffolk)

When a strike actually takes place, does your organisation have an active role in that communication?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Janet, you were quoting some statistics a moment ago about industrial action apparently increasing in London in recent years. Are you aware that London Underground and Transport for London use a statistical measure called lost customer hours?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Obviously, that can reflect either lost customer hours due to industrial action or it can relate to other causes. Now, I accept that in the last four years there has been an increase in lost customer hours due to industrial action, but what is very telling is that in only four out of the last 12 years has the proportion of overall lost customer hours as a result of industrial action been larger than 10%; it has never been larger than 20%. So, the vast majority of lost customer hours are due to impacts other than strike action or other industrial action; I imagine that it is due to defective equipment, overcrowding, signal failures, adverse weather and so on. Therefore, do you agree that when you look at the overall customer experience, as you are doing, industrial action and its impacts must be kept in perspective?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I agree, but even in the last four years—in 2011-12 and 2012-13, it barely registered. In 2011-12, 1.3% of lost customer hours resulted from industrial action; in 2012-13, it was 4.9%. I accept that the figure has been higher in the last two years, but these are relatively small numbers; I am not saying that they are not important, but they are relatively small compared with all those other things.

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

But do you agree that there is a danger that if we make national Government policy and legislation for a very, very large area based on media feeling about something—the kind of rhetoric that we hear from some of us around this Committee table—?

Stephen Doughty (Labour/Co-operative, Cardiff South and Penarth)

David, I do not have the statistics for the rest of the UK transport network, but do you accept that there is a similar thing here, and that we should keep industrial action in perspective, taking into account other reasons for lost customer hours?

Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))

Following on from the comments of the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth, if the numbers and the percentages seem small, I am puzzled, as you said before, that Londoners seem to have accepted that strikes are just part of London. It makes me think that the constant talk—are they going to happen, are they not going to happen?—and the uncertainty adds to the disruption to people’s lives, as well as the strikes themselves. Would that be a fair comment?

Rishi Sunak (Conservative, Richmond (Yorks))

Picking up on something you said earlier, I am interested in how different types of people on different income levels are affected by strikes. You mentioned that people in certain jobs are probably more easily able to work from home—for example, people in office jobs—than people in shift work and lower-paid jobs, where that is more difficult. Will you talk about your experience of that?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

You have both talked about your organisations representing passenger feelings. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth said that the overwhelming numbers of days lost through delays and everything else—even in London, the figure is about 80%—is not down to any form of industrial action. I have to say that, outside London, I have not had any lost journey in my regular commute from the north-east in the past five or six years due to industrial action, although I have had many for other reasons. Have you got anything to say about whether the causes of a lost day makes any difference to the impact on the life of a passenger, a member of the community? Secondly, are you aware that nothing in the Bill would impact on any of the rail stoppages that have happened in recent years in London, because they would meet the thresholds on the ballot that they had already held?

Julie Elliott (Labour, Sunderland Central)

I am well aware that not all people work 9 to 5. I travel 300 miles from my home every week to come to work—at least, the London part of my work—but I was asking whether it makes any difference to the impact on somebody’s life what has actually caused the delay or disruption, bearing in mind the tiny percentage that is caused by industrial action?

Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

To what extent is the evidence you are presenting today applicable to the experience in Scotland and, perhaps, Wales, given that much of your work appears to be in England and particularly in London?

Lisa Cameron (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

In terms of your own work, such as underground journeys, there is nothing about tube journeys in Scotland or anything like that that you can say.

Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)

There are no further questions. We thank you both for attending; it has been very informative. We will now move on to the next session.

The rest of the debate is in Hansard.