Welfare Reform and Work Bill
Public Bill Committee, 10 September 2015.
Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)
First, I welcome new Members to the Committee. This is very much a formal session, and we are on the record as of now. We are sitting in public, although the public have not yet joined us. We will shortly sit in private to work out who wants to ask what to whom, but first we have some formalities.
I see that you are all drinking water. I would rather that we do not have teas and coffees, particularly when we are sitting at the House of Lords end of the Committee Corridor—they are fussy about refreshments. As you know, the programme motion was discussed yesterday.
Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)
I remind Members that there is a deadline for submitting amendments to be considered for the Committee’s first line-by-line session on Tuesday 15 September. You have to submit amendments by the rise of the House today.
Examination of Witnesses
Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)
The first witnesses this morning are from the British Chambers of Commerce, Capp, Manchester City Council and Family Action. Before calling the first Member to ask the panel a question, may I ask you to introduce yourselves for the record? I remind you that we will finish this session at 12.30 pm. Who would like to start?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
I welcome you all to our Committee.
This is probably a question for Marcus in the first instance. The Bill requires the Government to report on progress towards full employment. How do you think full employment should be defined? What is the right definition for this purpose?
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
I think the important thing, though, is to look beyond the 4% or 5% unemployment as being full employment. Isn’t it important to look at how we define employment? The Office for National Statistics says that someone on a zero-hours contract, perhaps working no more than two or three hours a week, is in employment, but that is hardly a good situation for that individual to be in. If we have a reporting requirement that focuses solely on those sorts of numbers, using that broad definition, how can we really be helping ourselves? Are we not just putting forward an incentive for people to be in insecure and low-paid jobs?
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
But the point is that if we are not measuring unemployment further than that—I mean, should we not be measuring things such as whether people are getting the hours they want and how many of them have to rely on in-work benefits to live? Is that not a better way of measuring real full employment, as opposed to people working in a family business and not getting paid, working just an hour a week or working on a zero-hours contract? If we want real full employment, we want people to be able to live with dignity. The measures that the Government are introducing are not the sorts of measures that the public can rely on and, perhaps, can be defined as a lie.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Can I ask a supplementary to that? Following on from Emily, as has been made clear, with the baseline for recording being only one hour in the previous week, surely it would sensible to have something in the Bill specifically about quality and decent work, and have the Government define that in the Bill. Would that be sensible?
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
I have one more question. One aim of this Bill is to lower the level of the household benefit cap. The Government are arguing that they should cut benefits in such a way as to provide an incentive for people to go into work, but they define work as being 16 hours a week. Surely we cannot have a definition of employment from the Government in the Bill saying that it is 16 hours a week, and yet measure employment as one hour a week. Do you see the inconsistency?
Priti Patel (Conservative, Witham)
I have a question for both Marcus and Rebecca. You have already touched on the point about people who are inactive, and incentivising work, which are important factors. What are your views on how the Government can work closely with employers, businesses and other organisations to drive employment and incentivise work, particularly with those who are the furthest away from the labour market?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
The research that we have done found that twice as many people were being sanctioned on Work programmes as were getting jobs. How is that ambitious? How can we be ambitious and get people into work when we have those kinds of statistics, which really show up the failings of people in jobcentres? Having visited jobcentres, I am sure they have good intentions. Do we not need to have more ambitious targets and more detail in the Bill about quality, and, as Emily says, dignity in work and decent work, so that we can be sure that we are doing the best for people?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Surely we need something. There needs to be something around quality and decent work, rather than it being purely numbers based.
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
I want to ask a question about apprenticeships. This is really a question to Rebecca. We gather that you are concerned that the only way the 3 million apprenticeships target will be hit is if quite a lot of the apprenticeships are rather poor quality. Could you explain to us why you have that fear? Could you also tell us what it would take, in your view, to deliver both the target and the quality that all of us would want to see?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
What would it take to deliver the target and the quality? How do we avoid that problem?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
You’re doing great!
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
That was a good answer.
Amanda Milling (Conservative, Cannock Chase)
I have several questions for both Rebecca and Marcus. In the previous Parliament, about 5,000 apprenticeships were created in my own area, and I have met businesses and apprentices themselves. What can the Government and businesses—other providers as a collective—do to raise awareness of apprenticeships and the value of apprentices to firms both in the short and long term?
Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)
A number of people want to come in. Amanda, if you have more points, do them all together, please.
Amanda Milling (Conservative, Cannock Chase)
I will try to do them all together. There is awareness and understanding of the benefits of apprenticeships to both the employer and apprentice. In the previous Parliament, I was pleased to see levels of satisfaction on both parts being really high. I am keen to know what we can do collectively to continue to build satisfaction among apprentices themselves and also among employers. If the employers have a great experience, they will take on more apprentices, and they will become their future workforce. Many of the people I meet when I am out and about started out as apprentices, so you can see the long-term benefits to the economy. This question is to Rebecca and Marcus.
Corri Wilson (Scottish National Party, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
My question is for Marcus. On the Conservative manifesto commitment to halve the disability gap, there is a huge difference between wanting to go back to work and being physically and mentally able to. Is there a disparity between the commitment and the actual opportunities that are out there?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Would you be willing to consult with them on it?
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
I should say that I have an honorary role within my local chambers of commerce, which I think I am meant to declare—sorry, Chair. I, too, am new to this.
Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)
It is on the record now.
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Brilliant, thank you.
Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)
You have to attend now.
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
I do—I love it.
I have had a really good briefing from the FSB, which shares some of the concerns that you have touched on about the number of new apprenticeships in particular. The FSB says that 60% of its members already take on an apprentice and are concerned about the quality, how to access the best apprenticeship scheme for them and the complexity involved that you touched on, Rebecca. This is primarily a question for Rebecca and Marcus: what does that process look like? What are you advising the Government to build in to the current plans to ensure that your members and other small and medium-sized enterprises in particular can access the best and most appropriate apprenticeships for them?
My second question touches on the point that the Minister and Rebecca made about hard-to-reach groups. Is there a real opportunity here to focus these apprenticeships on specific areas of the country, specific areas of employment and specific groups who we know to be disadvantaged, such as disabled people and carers, to make sure that your employers are supporting the Government to deliver that target to cut the employment gap?
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
At the moment should that be the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, jobcentres or local authorities? Who should be providing that role, if it is so complex at the moment? Should it be chambers of commerce, or the Federation of Small Businesses, for example?
Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)
I am conscious of the time, and of the fact that Mr Holmes and Mr Little have not had the opportunity to answer questions yet. Stephen, I think you want to put some questions, but before then, Jo, do you want to ask a question of Mr Mason or Rebecca Plant? Quickly, please—then they can have a rest.
Jo Churchill (Conservative, Bury St Edmunds)
It is just a quick one, to Rebecca and Marcus, really, as to how Government can be more innovative.
You have outlined many of the problems. Perhaps I should declare an interest: I am a shareholder of an SME and have run an SME for some decades. What you are saying is exactly right. The big problem is not the lack of will. Sometimes it is the lack of skills both from the business and from the joined-up agencies. There is a problem with always having a job at the end of an apprenticeship, because you do not always know what your economic environment in a small business is going to look like in two years’ time, and that is something that very much needs to be taken on board.
So are there ways of looking at this in an innovative sense? Farming would be one example, where often the work is seasonal and therefore the farmer can offer practical work; but maybe there could be some alignment with colleges in order to make up that difference. One of the problems that we are having is that bums on seats in schools mean money, so they are unlikely to encourage apprenticeships at that stage because of that trade-off. Is there some positive way that we as a Government can help incentivise innovative thinking around apprenticeships, particularly for small businesses, which make up 99.9% in volume terms of all the companies in this country?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
I would like to ask David and Geoff about the troubled families programme. The Bill requires the Secretary of State to report on the progress made by households benefiting from the programme. I would be interested to know how you think progress should be measured. What is success for a family who have been in the troubled families programme? How fair, in your view, is the criticism I have sometimes heard that although a lot of families have been helped by the troubled families programme, not many unemployed family members have gone into jobs? Is that a fair criticism of the programme? Would you say that it has been a success so far?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
I would be interested to know how Geoff feels about the same issues.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
I was involved in developing two different troubled families services, both in the black county and in Birmingham. You have already covered the fact that employment is always the hardest target to reach. I want to hear about the reporting mechanism that is going to come in. I used to sit in troubled families offices listening to the headlines saying that we were helping 10 billion families, and think “Are we”—well, I will not swear. “We are not, actually; those are headline figures. We are at the first step of helping these families.”
The way that the troubled families scheme works at the moment means that there is very little step-down support once time on the programme is completed, and therefore long-term measures of success would be near impossible to measure, beyond employment capability, for a long time. What are your views on the reporting mechanism being headline candy for a scheme that is definitely extremely positive, aside from the employment headline? I was specifically working with vulnerable women and children and female offenders, and I have seen thousands of families like the one that you described. The woman you described is a real success, but I bet you did not get her into employment. If you didn’t, when her two-year-old turns three, she is going to be sanctioned and end up right back where she started.
Is the report going to have returns in it? Will it be cyclical? Will I see a report that says that that family has come back into the troubled families programme? There is no step-down support, so once families are done with the programme, they are done with the programme, and we do not know what success looks like. With this level of reporting, I am worried that the headline figure will be anyone who has ever been referred by any agency and it will not actually mean anything.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Her children would be safer, for example. That is a pretty good success.
Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)
We are going into the last five minutes of the session.
Corri Wilson (Scottish National Party, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
My question is to David. With increased conditionality, there are likely to be more sanctions. Would you foresee any additional cost to the Government as a result of this?
Jo Churchill (Conservative, Bury St Edmunds)
My question is to Geoff. Did you extrapolate any of the findings out? I like the programme—it has huge benefit for these families—but one of the evidence-based things that I drew from it was about those people who you could get into either volunteering or work, because it is that construct that is valuable. One of the unforeseen consequences, which to me was brilliant looking forward, was that school attendance improved hugely, and then you start to break a cycle. So are we looking at any further reporting like that, which obviously has long-term effects on positive results in the job market going forward?
Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)
One final brief question, and if we can have brief answers that would be good. Then if there is anything else you need to say, or you feel you have not the opportunity to say it, please supply some written evidence and it will be circulated.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
David and Geoff, isn’t the point of the employment figure that it is not just the fact of the job itself, which, of course, is hugely significant; it is also all the roll-on effects, such as getting up in the morning and getting children up in the morning to go to school. For the mum you described, it is building strength, so that hopefully she will not accept abusive relationships, and giving her financial independence, which again helps within a domestic violence situation. Although it is a big figure in itself, from that employment figure so much else flows.
Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)
Order. I am afraid that it is the end of the session, but I repeat that anything else you wish to inform the Committee about will be circulated as the Bill progresses. I thank you, on behalf of the whole Committee, for your comments and for answering the questions.
Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)
Good afternoon. I welcome you to this oral evidence session. We now have representatives from Barnado’s and Women Like Us. This session will run until 1 pm on the dot. I call the witnesses to briefly introduce themselves, and then we will go into questions.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Thank you very much for coming. My first question is to Neera, about proposals in the Bill in relation to the Child Poverty Act.
The Government have obviously criticised the Child Poverty Act, in relation to its focus on measuring relative income poverty and ignoring other aspects of child poverty. What is your critique of the proposals in the Bill in relation to measuring and tracking progress on child poverty? Can you also say something about how important it is to understand the impact on different families?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Can you say something about the way in which the Government should or should not track different kinds of family structure, different kinds of family background, and whether you see this legislation as facilitating that?
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
I represent a constituency that is part of a London borough which has the sixth highest child poverty figures in the whole country, and we have already been hit very hard by the benefit cap, with many families having to move out of Islington to outer London, so children are having to commute for many hours to go to school. Can you tell us what it means for children to be uprooted from their local communities at an early age, and how their education can be affected, either by changing schools or by having to travel 20 or 30 miles to get to school each morning? How might that impact on child poverty and their life chances?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Following on from that, the Child Poverty Commission warned in 2014 that there was no realistic hope of meeting the targets that were already set, and that was before the cuts that were proposed in this Bill. Is there not a grave risk that, if we remove those targets, we will have no way of understanding the real impact of the cuts, at a stage when we are not meeting the targets previously set?
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
We know that we have high levels of poverty in working families, and the most recent statistics from DWP show that 64% of children growing up in poverty have at least one working parent. Given that, are you concerned that reporting solely on children who are in workless families will not give a true picture of child poverty in the UK?
Corri Wilson (Scottish National Party, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
To follow on from what Hannah was saying, given that the child poverty targets were unlikely to have been met, would it have been better to delay the targets instead of removing them?
Peter Heaton-Jones (Conservative, North Devon)
I want to move on to the changes in the Bill on conditionality for universal credit. I will be interested to hear your views on the impact that that will have. In particular, will you address whether you think any negative impacts that those changes might have will be to some extent mitigated by the changes to free childcare, with the Government’s proposal to double childcare to 30 hours a week? Is there a balance between the two?
Peter Heaton-Jones (Conservative, North Devon)
Could you also address childcare?
Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)
Helen?
Helen Whately (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)
My question has, in fact, just been answered.
Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)
Do you want to ask another one?
Helen Whately (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)
Not immediately.
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
On the 30 hours a week that we know the Government are going to be offering, is there a guarantee that they will pay for the 30 hours a week that people may want? In some areas, the cost of childcare is much higher—in my borough, for example, it is 30% higher than the London average. Will there be a shortfall between the amount the Government are prepared to pay for the childcare and the amount it will actually cost?
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
My next question is: if you are an unskilled lone parent with a three-year-old and you are trying to find work, are you likely to be able to get work available during the day, or are you more likely to get the sort of work that might be early morning cleaning, bar work or zero-hours contracts where you are expected to be available? How does that fit in with setting up a new form of childcare?
Peter Heaton-Jones (Conservative, North Devon)
Can I pick up on the issue of the proportion of childcare costs that are covered? It is currently about 70%, but under the new arrangements it will probably be about 85%—is that right?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
In terms of conditionality, we have seen a gradual creep down in parents returning to work. We are talking now about women having to return to work when their baby is a year old. That is surely going to have a huge impact on parents of very young children, as will the sanctions attached to it, and a disproportionate effect on children. Under the UN convention on the rights of the child, it will be potentially devastating for not just families that are out of work, but families that are in work.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
I have a question about resources. A significant number of women will be affected and will need potentially to get back to work. Surely extra resources are required to cater for that. Do you feel that there is adequate—
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
I want to tease out the issue about flexibilities for parents, especially lone parents, in the proposed new conditionality. There are, within guidance, opportunities for flexibility in the requirements that are imposed on lone parents now. In your experience, have you seen those well applied, badly applied or not applied? What difference can they make to the ability of a lone parent to make that journey to work?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Are parents and independent advisers aware of these flexibilities and able to encourage, in the negotiation of the claimant commitment, that the lone parent should raise these issues and talk to the jobcentre adviser about them?
Peter Heaton-Jones (Conservative, North Devon)
Picking up on the point about the support that is available for lone parents at Jobcentre Plus, we have seen a steady increase in the employment rate among lone parents. Is that because the advisory role being undertaken by Jobcentre Plus is working?
Priti Patel (Conservative, Witham)
As part of universal credit, DWP is looking at how best to support claimants who are in work but are low paid, and there are trials under way already. Emma, you mentioned that more work could be done, particularly working with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and employers. What are your thoughts on that? What practical advice and support could be put in place, and what more could employers do in this space?
Priti Patel (Conservative, Witham)
You mentioned LEPs, and there is a huge body of views on LEPs with regard to the local labour market. Do you have any examples to share? If you do not have time today, perhaps come back with written evidence.
Priti Patel (Conservative, Witham)
On LEPs that are based with employers. Do you have examples of the work that they do in terms of progression, flexibility and looking at local labour market needs and challenges?
Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)
We have only two minutes. If you have any evidence, please supply it.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
One of the biggest issues that we have with this Bill is the two-child limitation. We have had very brief detail on child tax credits and universal credits for exceptional cases of rape and multiple births. Surely there is major concern about how that will be justified and administered. That is a serious concern of a lot of organisations. What are your views on that?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Emma, do you have specific views on the rape situation?
Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)
Order. If anyone wishes to provide evidence in writing, we would be happy to receive it.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
We welcome Mr Smee from the Council of Mortgage Lenders and Mr Broadhead from the Building Societies Association. Thank you for coming to give evidence to our panel this afternoon. We have until 2.30 pm and we have quite an afternoon ahead of us so we are going to be fairly tight on time. Could I ask you to introduce yourselves for the record?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Thank you. We will now, if we may, engage you with some questions. We turn to Kate Green for the first set of questions.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Why is there a problem around the 39 weeks?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
That is very helpful. Thank you. One of the things we are obviously concerned about is the way in which, after somebody has taken advantage of such a loan, the Government are eventually repaid. Obviously, that would not be required while the person is not working. It would be when they return to work or when the asset is sold. Do you have any observations on whether there is a risk to people’s ability to retain their homes, given the model that the Government are proposing?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Just before you answer that, one or two of us older folk are having a bit of trouble hearing, and we are told that they cannot turn the sound up. Could you speak directly into the microphone and be as clear as you can? It is not your fault at all; it is the age of some of us at this end.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
I’m 33 and I can’t hear it.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
My apologies.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
The question is about the way in which the Government seek to restructure their ability to recoup loans made. One way they could do that is when the house is disposed of. Do you have any concerns about people’s ability to keep their house? Is there a risk of repossession, and what analysis have you made of that?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
I did not hear that, Paul. I beg your pardon.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
May I ask one last question? It has been suggested that some people who do not return to work—perhaps people who are on long-term sickness or disability benefits and do not become well enough to return to work—will never make repayments of the loan as a result of returning to employment, but will be able to do so when the house is sold. For some of those people, the sale is likely to take place at the point when they become so disabled that they need to make adaptations and perhaps downsize to release equity to do so. How will the market respond and what are the risks of those people being unable to fund a move to more suitable supportive housing?
Shailesh Vara (Conservative, North West Cambridgeshire)
Welcome, gentlemen. It would be the Government’s intention to have comprehensive advice for claimants who are in the position of having interest that is to be converted into a loan—by way of advice on the accrual of interest and on the impact of the second charge. It could be a third or fourth charge depending on how many debts they have. It is our intention to give comprehensive advice. Is there anything that we should be mindful of when considering the advice to give? What would you emphasise that we should make clear to claimants?
Shailesh Vara (Conservative, North West Cambridgeshire)
I appreciate that. This is just to inform them of the consequences of what we are doing.
Shailesh Vara (Conservative, North West Cambridgeshire)
I am happy with that. For the sake of good order, I refer the Committee to the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Thank you, gentlemen, for joining us. Why should homeowners be forced into extra debt when the renting sector has access to housing benefit? That seems somewhat iniquitous given that many of those people are already struggling financially and are on benefits. Will the measure mean that people on low incomes and in insecure jobs will be disadvantaged or excluded from getting on to the housing ladder as a result of the change?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Do you think it is therefore very important that, if we end up with this in legislation, there are guarantees and stipulations on Government that people do not end up in that position? So many people’s circumstances change and fluctuate.
Amanda Milling (Conservative, Cannock Chase)
Welcome. Paul, I want to pick up on a point you raised about advice. Mortgages are complex, as are the legalities around housing. You talked about accessibility and ensuring that we give people channel preferences so that they can get advice. From an industry perspective and knowing this whole area, do you have any other advice in terms of things we need to consider? That question is for either of you.
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Apologies for being a bit late; I was stuck in the Chamber.
My questions have been largely answered, but I have some real concerns about the advice sections you are talking about. In my experiences of women and domestic violence, their husbands leave and they are left with the mortgage of a property. They have never worked and would find it difficult to get into work.
I am concerned about the advice, but I am also concerned about what detail is not in the Bill. I am confused. It is confusing enough, let alone if you are a vulnerable person in a difficult situation. I wonder if you have some concerns about the detail and whether you will need more detail before you can give firm conclusions about whether this is going to be terrible for the claimants.
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
Building on that point about the lack of detail in the Bill, one of the biggest concerns you have raised is the huge number of existing claimants, but there is no detail on how they will be dealt with. What are your thoughts on how they should be dealt with? How serious is it that the detail is not there?
Corri Wilson (Scottish National Party, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
What effect, if any, would the potential increase of sanctions have on the entitlement period? If there were breaks in claims, would that have an effect?
Corri Wilson (Scottish National Party, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
Thank you.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
I want to follow up on something that was said a moment ago about both existing and, once the legislation is in place, new claimants. I was struck by the statistic that more than half of claimants are in receipt of pension credit, which I suppose means that they are much less likely to achieve repayment by going back to work, as opposed to the eventual disposal of the property. What is your critique of that as commercial lenders, both in the abstract and in relation to SMI?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Do you wish to add anything, Paul?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Given those drivers and the nature of the case load—the fact that many of them are on pension credit; the likelihood that their borrowing at that point will be quite low so the amount of SMI that they might need to acquire through a loan would be low, and the fact that there are other options for them to repay the loan—do you think that the Government’s anticipated savings of £255 million a year are realistic?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
Do you expect any customer backlash from people who expected to be able to retire and leave a house to a child? This will be their property. Do you expect any consumer reaction?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
There are no further questions and we are drawing to the conclusion of our half hour, so I thank Mr Smee and Mr Broadhead for some clear and concise answers, which are much appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to give us evidence today.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
We now have witnesses from Gingerbread, the Centre for Economic and Social Inclusion, Reform and the Employment Related Services Association. We are grateful that you are here. Starting with you, Charlotte, could you read yourselves into the record so that we know exactly who you are?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Thank you. You may need to speak up, because some of us at this end are very decrepit and the microphones are not working well today.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Thank you. We have a good hour for this session, so we have quite a lot of time, but there are four of you. I ask for concise and fairly loud answers, but do not feel that you all have to answer every question unless it is specifically your bag or you have something to say. We will start with a number of questions from Stephen Timms.
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
I have three questions to ask at the beginning. I think the first one is mainly to Octavia. We heard this morning from Women Like Us that the agreed flexibilities in the conditionality around lone parents at the jobcentre are being withdrawn. What is the experience of people who have been in touch with Gingerbread about the application of the lone parent flexibilities? I do not think that there has been any change of policy. Are there things that could be done to ensure that lone parents can benefit from the flexibilities that they should benefit from?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
To clarify, in your discussions with Department for Work and Pensions officials, there is still the intention that those flexibilities will be available but your experience, in practice, is that they are quite often not?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Thank you very much for coming to speak to us. On that point about lone parent flexibilities, do you not believe that those important flexibilities should therefore be brought into statute, so that they are very clear and people can understand them?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
This is a question mainly for Tony. We are told that there is evidence that the benefit cap has encouraged some people to go into work who would not otherwise have done so. Can you tell us how compelling you think that evidence is, and how big an effect there appears to have been from the application of the benefit cap?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
I wonder whether the other witnesses would like to comment on that question as well. Is there any evidence out there in your world about what has happened in relation to the benefit cap?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
A final question from me to Kirsty. The note we had from the Clerks tells us that the proportion of Work programme participants who have secured sustainable job outcomes has been almost 25% for people on jobseeker’s allowance, but less than 10% for people on employment and support allowance. Looking back on the experience of the Work programme, why do you think performance has been so poor for that particular group? What are the lessons for the future design of the Work programme to try to do a better job next time round?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Charlotte, do you want to come in on that point?
Stephen Timms (Labour, East Ham)
One of the interesting things about this discussion in the context of the Bill is the Government’s objective to halve the disability employment gap. Is it not clear that we would have to do much better than the 10% that has come out of the Work programme if we were to get anywhere close to halving that gap?
Priti Patel (Conservative, Witham)
Kirsty, you have touched on a broad range of themes, in particular on the Work programme and ESA. I know from discussions within the Department and, you will be aware, with Work programme providers, that this is a challenging area but one that we are ambitious about. Do you have any learnings or thoughts from the providers that your organisation represents? For ESA claimants in particular, what are those game-changing interventions? What else do you think the Government could focus on in terms of spending for support—bringing people closer to the labour market but, importantly, helping them to continue their journey of long-term sustained employment, not just getting them into work? What kind of health interventions could we look into? Do you have any insight or experience of seeing fruitful outcomes?
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
You gave a long, interesting and detailed answer to the question asked, which is essentially about how we get people on ESA into work. You have not said—I wonder if you overlooked this—that it might be an incentive and make it more likely for those on ESA in the support group to get into work if their benefits are cut by £36.20 a week, which is what is said in the Bill.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
A number of colleagues have caught my eye and there is a clear list in my mind, but, before I come to Hannah, did you want to chip in on that question, Charlotte?
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
When did you stop being an expert adviser to Iain Duncan Smith?
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
I appreciate that. I just wondered how much your thinking has influenced the Bill when you are here giving evidence in relation to the Bill. It is important to see it in that context.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
I have a number of concerns about the kind of language and terminology that is used. First, you are saying the perception is that ESA programmes are successful and hugely ambitious. I am not sure that a 10% success rate would be deemed by me or anyone else on this side of room a success. When the number of people being sanctioned on the Work programme is twice as many as those getting employment, I would again question whether that is a success.
I put this to everyone on the panel: we are not clear about the impact that the cap has had already, although we have a lot of concerning figures, particularly about single-parent families. Before we cap people further, should we not be looking at the Work programme and having a full-scale review of it to make it more effective for people moving off ESA, before we cut their benefits?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
That is a good question. Who are you asking?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Everyone.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Specifically on that, what would be the cost of providing a radical, tailored, personal employment service, because clearly that is what is needed? These are some of society’s most vulnerable people who need that support.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Should we not have that first, though, before we drive more of the more vulnerable people into poverty?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Some of the questions and answers are getting a little long. Octavia is very keen to come in, and then we will go along the panel because this is an important question.
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
I would like to ask you a few questions about the benefit cap. Is it not right that those who are affected most by the benefit cap have until now been those who live in private accommodation in London?
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
Those who live in private accommodation in London are quite often homeless families where the local authority has not had sufficient social housing to be able to put them into council housing, and so has had to put them out to the private market. Is that right?
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
What happened with the previous cap was that those who lived in private rented accommodation as homeless families in central London had to move to outer London in order to be able to have sufficient money, once the rent had been paid, to be able to feed the children.
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
Are you aware that in Islington, for example, 1,000 families have moved out so far because of the benefit cap?
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
The point I want to make is that that has been in central London. Now that the benefit cap is being applied more harshly and being brought down further, do you anticipate that not only will those who are in unstable arrangements to remain in central London continue to be affected, but it will now start affecting people in private accommodation in outer London who have families?
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
So, you do not believe—
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Emily, I am going to interrupt you, if I may. I have got a list. We will come back to you towards the end—there is plenty of time. Victoria Atkins, followed by Corri Wilson.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
This question is picking up on the evidence Octavia has just given. Is it right that the £26,000 benefit cap in place at the moment is equivalent to approximately £34,000 of gross income if you are working?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
What help is given to people with gross incomes of £34,000?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
Forgive me, the ladies opposite are not giving evidence. [ Interruption. ]
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Order.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
The point is that £34,000 gross income is, for most people, getting on for a decent salary
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
If I may say so, you have hit the nub of why this legislation is being introduced in this format. In my constituency, which is not in London—a lot of people live outside London—the median salary is £490 a week. The fact that the different rates of living are now going to be reflected in the different rates of benefit caps in the new legislation is fairer across the country, both in terms of the cost of living in London and outside London, and also to those people who are getting up in the morning and going to work and earning £490 a week in my constituency.
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
I want to follow up with one last question. Approximately four in 10 households earn less than £23,000 in London, and less than £20,000 outside London. Do you accept that?
Victoria Atkins (Conservative, Louth and Horncastle)
I am sorry, I was just asking about the rate of the salary.
Corri Wilson (Scottish National Party, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
This is a question for Kirsty and Tony. How can you incentivise people who have been assessed as ill to get back to work? When we are capping people who receive severe disablement allowance, how is this treating people fairly?
Jo Churchill (Conservative, Bury St Edmunds)
I will try to be succinct, because you have covered a lot of this. My major interest is in how we help occupational health outcomes that would aid employees, particularly those who, for example, suffer from cancer and, through no fault of their own, end up in a situation where they are claiming. Many of them, after Question Time yesterday, asked me why we could not do something like invoke a conversation between a doctor and the employer to avoid them falling between the cracks. They are okay to work and they want to work, but it is an all-or-nothing scenario. Is there any mileage in a better dialogue or a service where doctors can help to inform—this leads into long-term conditions, an ageing population and so on—so that we have a better conduit of information between different services?
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
I am just going to go back to some of the discussion about the benefits cap. My colleague, Emily, pointed out the effect on the cost of housing and on those people living in the private rented sector. Do any of you perceive that the changes in the rates that will be offered will have an effect on the market, thus pushing down the costs of rents for those landlords? If not, will it potentially just affect—
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham, Yardley)
Thinking about the local housing allowances rates, now that those allowances have been localised and councils can put rules in place to decide them—for example, you have to have lived in Birmingham for one year or Sandwell for five years before you can qualify to go on housing lists and access those services—I have a concern. Octavia, I wonder if you could comment on it. The idea of people moving to places with cheaper rents will be immediately stopped by that. Emily’s lovely residents in Islington could move to Birmingham and, let me tell you, there are lots of London boroughs trying to do that. Of course, what they will find when they get there is that they are not able to come in. Might that be a problem for some families?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Well, Ministers are here and are listening. A point well made.
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
You were talking earlier about a single mother who might be offered a job at night but finds there is no childcare available. Just to spell it out, if she did not accept that job, would she get sanctioned?
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
The question I wanted to ask was about the benefit cap. Quite a lot has been said about it, but I would like comments from anybody on the panel on this. If we were to take out of any benefit cap housing costs that are not under the control of people who live in London—people who do not own houses and are in the private rented sector because there is not enough council housing for them to live in—and instead assess people on the basis of need, given the size of their family, would that result in a fairer outcome? Would it have any adverse impact on their willingness to work?
Helen Whately (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)
We know that many people in the work-related activity group desperately want to work. Kirsty and Tony, you have both talked about the help for that group and people who are further from work—things like lower case loads, talking therapies and much more personalised attention. Clearly, all of that costs something.
The savings from aligning ESA with JSA are substantial. I have seen a figure of £640 million. Some of that can be used to fund the additional support, and the Government have made a commitment to fund additional support. Kirsty, you also said that those individuals, once in work, tend to stay in work, which is a very good outcome. I want to test this with the panel: is it not better to be helping that group of people into work, as this Bill is proposing, than to keep them in receipt of slightly higher benefits but not in work?
Helen Whately (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)
I have a second question. Earlier on there was some criticism of jobcentres’ support for lone parents and questions about flexibility. One of the things my local jobcentre in Maidstone was doing recently was celebrating a young woman—I think she had five children under seven—who had just got into work. She really wanted work and it worked hard to help her, even during the summer holidays. I wonder whether you recognise that jobcentres are managing to help some single parents—Octavia, you must have quite a lot of experience and feedback from single parents on this. When jobcentres are successfully helping lone parents and you combine that with the plans for 30 hours’ free childcare for three-year-olds, surely things are moving in the right direction for single parents who want to go back to work. I have heard that from my constituents.
Helen Whately (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)
The point about the implementation of that 30 hours is important—how it is done.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Should we not be stipulating that it be decent and fair work, rather than any work? The current statistics are one hour in any work in the week before. Should the legislation not stipulate another term of reference?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Order. I have four people on my list. There will be time.
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
That is not what the evidence says at all.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Order. This is not a discussion; this is evidence taking. We will now call Paul Scully, followed by Hannah Bardell—you have let me down slightly there, Hannah, if I may say so. Then we will move to Peter Heaton-Jones and Corri Wilson. Neil, you can come in after that.
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
When you were talking about sanctions, did you say that single parents were wrongly sanctioned?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
What are you basing “wrongfully” on? You talked about some thoughts when you spoke about not being able to take particular jobs. Are you basing that on appeals statistics?
Paul Scully (Conservative, Sutton and Cheam)
Fair enough. You also mentioned work coaches at the beginning. Do the rest of the panel believe that the additional help that the Government are giving in terms of additional work coach resources and flexible support funds allow parents to participate better in the labour market?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
The clock is ticking, and I have four colleagues to get in.
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Very briefly, this was a question I asked of the previous panel but we did not get a chance to come on to it. On the two-child policy in limiting child tax credit, one aspect that I and my colleagues are very concerned about, though there is no detail, is that there will be exceptional circumstances for rape. As we understand it, we are potentially going to be in a position where women are questioned and have to justify if they have a third child as a result of rape, or indeed if their first or second child was a result of rape and they go on to have further children. What are your views on that and its implementation, even at a basic human level?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Leave it out?
Peter Heaton-Jones (Conservative, North Devon)
I will be brief. I just want to clarify a couple of figures, if I may. The latest figures I have for the number of ESA claimants in the work-related activity group is just shy of 500,000, I think. Do we have any figures for what percentage of people successfully come off WRAG and get into paid employment?
Peter Heaton-Jones (Conservative, North Devon)
It would be interesting to know what percentage of people who have been in receipt of ESA in the WRAG have come off that and in to employment. Does anyone else have anything?
Corri Wilson (Scottish National Party, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
I just wanted to touch on the carer’s allowance and the widow’s pension in part of the cap. Those are obviously groups of people who are already under a strain: they have either lost a partner or have a caring responsibility 24/7. Should they be part of the cap? Should they be included?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Any takers?
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Apologies for my lateness. I was unfortunately unable to change another meeting, because we only got these days late. In response to a previous question from Hannah Bardell, Charlotte, you mentioned that there was evidence that any job was better than no job, with specific reference to someone who was given only one or two hours per week. What evidence is there specifically about those on zero-hours contracts and those who are unable to work more than a few hours a week or who are given few hours a week—specific evidence?
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
I am referring to the specific question, in answer to which you said there was evidence.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Order. Let Charlotte finish, please.
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
With specific reference to the question, is there no evidence to suggest that someone working just a few hours would benefit?
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
Has Reform done any specific research on the knock-on costs or on this specific issue of those on very limited hours of low-paid work?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Colleagues, we are approaching the end of our time for this session, and you have all been fairly well behaved. Are there any final questions?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
On that final point about adults and working families, the evidence is that the impact of some of these cuts, particularly the benefit cap, is going to be on 200,000 children versus 81,000 adults. How can we justify that? How can we balance that without saying that this is going to disproportionately affect children and young people through the cuts that are going to happen to their parents? They have no way of protecting themselves in those situations.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Thank you very much indeed to all four witnesses. This has been a very interesting discussion. Thank you for your evidence, Charlotte, Kirsty, Octavia and Tony. We are very grateful to you. The next session will start in five minutes. We will have a very short comfort break.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
A warm welcome to our six experts. We have people from Remploy, the Social Market Foundation, the Shaw Trust, Mind, Scope and Parkinson’s UK. Would you please like to read yourselves into the records by telling us who you are?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
I would like to focus my initial questions on the provisions in the Bill that relate to work incentives and the work-related activity group. Some of you may have more of an interest in this issue than others. We heard in the last evidence session—I am not sure if you were able to follow it—that there is international OECD evidence to suggest that there would be a significant work incentive by reducing the amount of payment in the WRAG. What is your comment on the impact on individuals and work incentives of people losing £30 a week? Shall we start with Parkinson’s UK?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
By the way, don’t all feel you have to answer every question, but do chip in if you have something to say.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
I should have said at the outset that because there are six of you, we will have to have fairly concise answers. Matt, did you want to come in on this?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
It would be unfair not to bring Mr O'Shaughnessy in on this as well, if you would like to say something.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Thank you. Sophie, did you want to come in very briefly?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
We will come back to Kate Green with some more questions, but first Anna Turley, because she has to go at four o’clock.
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
The Disability Benefits Consortium submission made reference to possible knock-on effects in other areas as a result of the abolition of the WRAG. Do you agree and what do you think the knock-on implications could be?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Anna, are you happy with that?
Anna Turley (Labour/Co-operative, Redcar)
I was thinking more broadly: anything from mental health to housing.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Let us have a quick answer from everyone on this important question.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Matt, do you want to have a final say on this?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Thank you very much for your contributions. On those points and the work programmes, would it not therefore make sense to do a wide-scale review of the work programmes and how we enable people with disabilities of all types to get back into employment before cutting their benefit and reducing it to the level of JSA?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
Or, indeed, not cutting them at all.
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
The Government had hoped that the number of people on long-term incapacity benefit and employment and support allowance would be reducing. In fact, it has been increasing, and particularly the numbers in the support group have been increasing. What is your analysis of the impact of a very sharp distinction between the level of benefit that you will receive in the support group and the level of benefit that you will receive if you are not in the support group? Is there any incentive, perhaps, to present yourself as more severely unwell or disabled, and therefore having to go into the support group?
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
Eighty-five per cent. Islington Law Centre has an 85% success rate for people who are appealing ESA assessments, when they take them to tribunal. That means that people who are assessed as being fit for work are then being reassessed by the tribunal as not being fit for work, or are put into an employment support group. Would it not be important for the Government to iron out clearly unfair decisions in the work assessment before changing the goalposts?
Kate Green (Labour, Stretford and Urmston)
We have slightly lost sight now of the effect that you think cutting £30 a week will have on people’s propensity to go into work and on the disability employment gap.
Helen Whately (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)
Mental health is a particular issue of interest or concern to me. In my constituency, I recently visited the local Mind and I saw really effective delivery of parts of the Work programme by it. I joined in a session and spoke to one client who told me very openly how enormously helpful she found Mind’s support, even though she was clearly some way off being able to get back into work. So, because I think the conversation about the support for people with mental health problems has been relatively negative, I just wondered whether there are any positive experiences you could talk about regarding the support that people are receiving.
Helen Whately (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)
Do you think that it would be possible for those successful models that you are describing—as I said, I saw something that seemed to be succeeding—to be extended?
Helen Whately (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)
Although that is not what I had seen from—
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Order. Helen, you will get some new answers now, if you will just hold a second.
Helen Whately (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)
We have been talking about the trade off in that these are successful programmes but they cost money. I am interested in your view. When you have a choice, do you keep paying somebody a slightly higher benefit or use some of that money instead to enable them to get closer to work, which is the situation we have here? Is it not better to support someone with that money, so that they can get into work? That is what most people with mental health problems who I know want. Is that not important?
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
My questions follow Helen’s quite neatly and are primarily for Sophie, Gareth and Elliot. The Government have a commendable target to reduce the employment gap for disabled people. There are opportunities in the Work programme, where it is supposed to be changing to focus in on that. Some of that has been touched on. A bit more information and specific recommendations from you on disability employment advisers, apprenticeships and Access to Work would be useful. It should be noted that although Access to Work costs money up front, it saves money in the longer term, not just in reducing benefits, but in income tax and national insurance contributions.
Secondly, Laura, you mentioned the impact of changes on disabled people and how they had not been taken into full consideration previously. Can you say a bit more about what measurements and reporting you would like to see in the Bill, including knock-on costs if the Government are potentially getting things wrong, if you have recommendations now?
Thirdly, a wider question: disabled people are known to have higher costs of living and fewer opportunities and the Government have repeated the statement that disabled people have been protected from previous cuts. Would you like to see an exemption for disabled people from benefit and tax credit freezes in the Bill to ensure that that statement is accurate?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
You are asking Gareth and Elliot—is that right?
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
The first question is to Sophie, Gareth and Elliot, the second one is to Laura and, for the third, take your pick.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Mr O'Shaughnessy, I know that you are involved in some of these things. Do you want to answer one of those questions?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Laura, do you want to come in on any of these questions?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Gareth, thank you. There are many more questions yet to come. Matt.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
I have Corri Wilson, Peter Heaton-Jones and Hannah Bardell. Ask your brief question now, Neil, then Corri can ask hers.
Neil Coyle (Labour, Bermondsey and Old Southwark)
I am intrigued by the point made by Laura and Matt: you are saying it is nonsensical to exclude disabled people from this, and “Make sure that the Prime Minister, when he next says disabled people are protected, is telling the truth.” Have you suggested, Laura—when you have heard Ministers say disabled people are protected—and have other charities you are aware of communicated that disabled people have been affected by previous changes, and that this Bill will also directly affect disabled people? Have you made that communication to DWP, so that Ministers and MPs know that disabled people are not protected under previous changes and will not be protected by this?
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Brief answers, please.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
So the answer is yes.
Corri Wilson (Scottish National Party, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)
I should like to challenge the assertion that the changes to ESA and universal credit will save the Government money. It may be just the welfare budget, but surely it will put a strain on other parts of the system: the NHS, charitable organisations and local authorities. That is for anybody who wants to answer.
Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)
Any advance on yes from Sophie? Is that the general feeling?
Peter Heaton-Jones (Conservative, North Devon)
I have two brief, but separate, points. As Helen shared with us earlier, I also take an interest in people with mental health conditions being able to get back into work. There is one town in my constituency, Ilfracombe, where there is a particular issue. There are a lot of groups, both statutory and third sector, doing a lot of work. I am interested to hear your perspective on the effect you think some of the measures in the Bill will have on that. In particular, one of you—forgive me, I think it was probably Gareth—mentioned a holistic approach being necessary for this. Looking outside the scope of the Bill to the work the DWP is doing, such as the Disability Confident programme, how do you think all that in its entirety will help with this challenge?
Peter Heaton-Jones (Conservative, North Devon)
I will be brief because I am aware of the time pressures. I just want to talk about the work-related activity group, which contains about half a million people. The Government are allocating extra funds for that—£60 million rising to about £100 million—and I am interested to hear the view on how that money would be best spent. I choose Matt.
Peter Heaton-Jones (Conservative, North Devon)
No.
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
I may have misunderstood your evidence, because you seem to be accepting that there are people in the WRA group—the employment support group—who will not be able to find work because there is something wrong with them; they really will not be able to find work and have been unemployed for a long time. You heard Sophie’s evidence about how hard it is to live on JSA for any period. As a matter of humanity, do you not think it is wrong in those circumstances for people who we know are on long-term sick leave or are long-term unemployed to be put on to jobseeker’s allowance? They simply will not be able to cope.
Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)
But you have just accepted that there are people who will be. It is your own evidence I am picking up on. It was your evidence that said you accept there will be people who are unemployed because of their physical or mental disabilities for a number of years. Given that you recognise that, all I am asking you is: as a matter of humanity, is it not wrong to push those people on to a level of jobseeker’s allowance and expect them to live on it?
Hannah Bardell (Scottish National Party, Livingston)
I will follow on from Emily’s points, because my question is really very similar. The numbers from the House of Commons are that we have 492,000 people on the ESA WRA group, and half of them—250,000— have very serious mental or behavioural issues. They have very different requirements and some of them will probably never work. How can we justify in any kind of humane way putting them on to a level of income that they will have no option of getting off, because they will never be able to work?
There is a bit about categorisation, and while I realise we are talking about all being in it together, and there are some very good ideas coming out, we have to look at, for example, a radical vision to provide employment support that is tailored and personal. We do not have that at the moment, as many of you have already suggested; so surely we have to look at that first, before cutting anybody’s benefits. People have to have the opportunities and the support has to be out there before we put people further into poverty.