Education and Adoption Bill
Public Bill Committee, 30 June 2015.
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
Order. I apologise to Members for the fact that we do not have enough seats. It is not just that people underestimated Members’ enthusiasm for attending at the beginning of a new Parliament. I will suspend the sitting until that has been sorted out.
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
Order. Before we begin, I have a few preliminary announcements. First, please silence electronic devices. I remind everyone that tea and coffee are not allowed during sittings. I also apologise for the late start. In view of the time available, I will not make any more announcements.
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
I beg to move a manuscript amendment, in the table, delete “9.40 am” and insert “9.50 am”.
We will move clause 1 later in our deliberations to enable Committee members to table amendments regarding the definition of a coasting school. Draft regulations were sent to all Committee members last night at 10 pm and are available in hard copy this morning. That should give all Members sufficient time to look at the regulations and table amendments to clause 1, should they wish to do so.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
May I put on the record—although not at great length, given the delay already this morning—the concern I expressed informally at the Programming Sub-Committee about the manner in which the programming for the Bill has been handled? The Bill has been put together in a rushed way, and the draft regulations were not thought through and ready in time. We received them only at 10 pm last night, which is why the Government are taking clause 13 first, then clauses 2 to 12, then clause 1 later on. It is emblematic of the fact that the Bill is an undercooked piece of legislation that should have been more carefully thought through before being brought to us for consideration. However, the Government get their way on these matters. I have had my say, and we should get on with it.
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Briefly, the Government are determined to ensure that no child is in an underperforming or coasting school. We are acting rapidly to tackle those problems swiftly. Within two months of the general election, we have a Bill available for scrutiny and ready to go through the system. We want to get the regulations right. We believe they are right, so we do not apologise for the swiftness with which we are acting to tackle coasting and failing schools.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
And we do not apologise for objecting to the manner in which the Bill has been introduced. If the Government were concerned about all children, all children would be covered by the Bill, but they are not.
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
Because the deadline for tabling amendments for Thursday’s line-by-line consideration has expired, I am prepared to consider late amendments that would otherwise not be debatable, on the basis that they might arise from evidence given today. I hope that is helpful.
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
Copies of the written evidence that the Committee receives will be available in the Committee Room.
We now come to the oral evidence from academics at University College London and King’s College London. May I remind everybody that the questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and that they should be brief? May I ask our guests who are giving evidence to make their responses commendably brief so we can cover all the ground we wish?
Examination of Witnesses
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
Will the witnesses introduce themselves for the record, starting with Dr Allen?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
I thank our witnesses for coming this morning and for their patience. The Bill is not ready; the room was not ready, so we are going on as we started.
Because of the truncated time available, could you be as pithy as possible? I am afraid this session is a bit like “Just a Minute”, rather than an opportunity to expand at great length. You have all had a chance to look at the draft regulations the Government published last night. What do you make of them?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
What would you do to identify and deal with coasting schools?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
There is no need for legislation, in your view, to create a separate definition of coasting schools and set it out on the face of a Bill. What you could do is change the remit of Osted in order to identify these schools.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Do you think it would be possible under these regulations for a school to be deemed not to be coasting, and yet to be inadequate or requiring improvement?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
In that case, what should a school do if it is not coasting but requires improvement or is inadequate?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
May I ask Professor Francis to respond to some of those issues?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Would you also be of a view that in order to avoid that confusion rather than to legislate separately in this way, it would be better if the concept of coasting is incorporated in Ofsted assessments and judged through inspection?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Could I ask Robert to respond?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
I will be brief because I want to hand over and let the Minister also speak while we are on coasting schools. Do the witnesses envisage that under the regulations as defined and from the Government’s intentions we are going to have a situation where heads and governors and so on are going to have to deal with the concept of being an outstanding school but also deemed to be coasting; a good school but also deemed to be coasting; a school that requires improvement deemed to be not coasting; and an inadequate school deemed to be not coasting? Is that possible under the regulations as far as we have seen them? I am aware that they were only released to us in the usual manner after they had been released to the press. The Government briefed this to the press all through yesterday, but we eventually got it at 10 o’clock last night. Are all those scenarios possible?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
So that is not possible under the regulations as defined? That is what I am asking you?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Is not the point of the legislation to try to weed out the schools that are judged to be good or outstanding but that have been concealing poor progress? Is not that what we are trying to tackle? Would you support that?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
In your written evidence, you said that you think that it is difficult to run a school in a poorer area. Do you think that they should be subject to a different form of metrics when they are being judged?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
May I interrupt? What research have you done on King Solomon academy? Does that school find it difficult to recruit? The school serves a very deprived area; more than 60% of pupils are on free school meals. Last year, 93% achieved five or more GCSEs including English and maths. Do you think that school is not delivering?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
May I just ask Dr Allen first? Then I would love to hear from Mr Hill.
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
But is not that what we want to achieve? Is not the King Solomon academy what we want in very deprived areas, rather than putting a lower level of expectation on schools serving deprived communities, as you seem to be implying in your evidence to the Committee?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Would Robert Hill answer that? I would also ask you another question, Mr Hill, because I want to make this my last question if I can. Do you think the progress measure is the right approach in dealing with these problems, and in addressing Dr Allen’s concerns, rather than using just attainment or just Ofsted?
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
I am afraid we have time for only one more question, and I hope it will be brief.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
We have talked predominantly about secondaries. What about primaries? What is the impact of the draft regulations on coasting when it comes to primaries?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Rebecca, you said that identifying coasting primaries would be more difficult.
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
Thank you. I am sorry that the evidence session was shorter than we might have wished, but thank you for your contribution.
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
Good morning. Thank you for coming. Will you briefly introduce yourselves?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
I will ask one question and then pass it over to colleagues, as they will not otherwise get a chance to ask questions. In dealing with an inadequate school, is academisation the only way to bring about satisfactory improvement—why is it that the Bill says that Ministers must, when they find an inadequate school, organise its academisation? Could you each offer a short, “Just a Minute” type answer—in fact, one word will do. Start with one word each.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Three noes and one yes. Could Sir Daniel perhaps explain why it is the only way?
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
I am interested in this definition of coasting. My daughter is six and goes to a primary school. It is self-evident to me and my constituents that the differential between some schools is often the amount of time that is allocated to children out of school. There are the parental and social contributions and networks that children attend in some of the more affluent areas. How are they measured in this coasting measurement? Clearly, the same amount of time is not allocated in some of my poorer areas. There are challenges in life. How is that not part of the school day?
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
That was not my question. It is straightforward: how do you measure it?
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
That is the answer, then: extremely hard. We are not measuring it is the real answer.
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Thank you all for coming today. I will jump straight in because we are pressed for time. Sir Daniel, in your answer you talked about failing schools, yet we are talking about coasting schools. What tools are there for tackling coasting, not failing?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
And you think that academisation is the only response to coasting, not failing?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Okay. That is the answer that I was curious to know.
Mr Malcolm Trobe, did you hear the previous evidence session?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
It was interesting that throughout that evidence session, all of the witnesses spoke about schools per se; they did not make the distinction between maintained schools and academies. When it comes to coasting, do you think there is a difference between academies and maintained schools in coasting indicators?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Therefore—
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
If you ask a question, you must let the witnesses answer.
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
If the problem affects all schools, is it not strange that the Bill focuses only on maintained schools and not every type of school?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
No, it will apply only to maintained schools.
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
Read clause 1!
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
We will use the definition when we assess academies.
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
The legislation focuses just on maintained schools. Does that not strike you as odd?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
I have a question on teacher recruitment specifically for Sir Daniel, but I am sure that others will want to chip in. Do you think that academies and multi-academy trusts find it easier to recruit good teachers and leaders?
Suella Fernandes (Conservative, Fareham)
This legislation, through guidance, aims to address the problem of latent stagnation in schools. It does that by identifying the standard for coasting and raising standards by offering those coasting schools the opportunity to work with some of the best experts in education to design a path to improvement. What should those plans include? What programme of improvement measures should there be for schools of that type?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
If I may say so, that observation seems to be in direct contrast to what Sir Daniel said earlier. Sir Daniel, would you care to come back, rebut and destroy the points made by the representative of the National Governors’ Association?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
I apologise for stopping you, but briefly, the Bill says “must” and that was the question I asked you earlier. It does not envisage an IEB as a possible tool to be used in those circumstances.
John Pugh (Liberal Democrat, Southport)
Following on from that, clearly the problem is coasting. Everybody wants the problem of coasting addressed. The only solution in the legislation is academisation. Apart from changing governance and headteacher, which often follows with academisation, what do academies have in their toolkit to address the problem of coasting that an LEA does not, and vice-versa? Councillor Watts, could you begin?
John Pugh (Liberal Democrat, Southport)
Following on from the earlier question, would a local authority have more difficulty in doing that than an academy chain?
John Pugh (Liberal Democrat, Southport)
Local authorities lack the freedoms necessary.
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
Emma, you represent school governors. I forgot to say that my partner is a school governor. Why are school governors not intervening in all of this? Where is their role in this? Why does the Bill not address school governorship, which you say could do everything an academy could do in terms of a transformational agenda? Where is the role for governors in this and why are they not succeeding in some schools as well as in others?
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
Why?
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
A brief note on that might be beneficial—to me, at any rate.
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
I have a question for Sir Daniel. You will be aware that the Bill tackles maintained schools, because the Secretary of State already has the ability to intervene in failing academies through her funding agreement with academy chains and academy trusts. You will also be aware that academies that have been sponsored academy secondary schools for four years have improved their results by 6.4 percentage points, compared with 1% for those schools in local authority control over the same period. Can you inform the Committee what it is you do at Harris, in terms of school improvement, that is so different from what happens in a local authority? We touched on it a little, but can you go into a bit more detail on the kind of things you do?
The second part of the question has to do with Downhills primary school, which your academy chain took over a few years ago. Can you tell us what has happened to Downhills primary school since your academy chain took it over?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
I think education is about the individual pupil. Can you describe the change in pupils’ life chances at Downhills primary school as a consequence of Harris taking it over, compared with what would have happened to those children had you not intervened?
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
Emma, I can see that you want to come in on this one.
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Did the governors at Downhills oppose the school’s conversion to an academy?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Did Downhills not have governors?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Can we put on the record, Mr Chope, that that is a point of agreement, I think, across the Committee? Where schools are inadequate, action should be taken.
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
So you are saying, “Don’t use data and don’t use anecdotes.” What would you use?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
On that point, Councillor Watts, the Minister used a piece of data at the beginning. He said that sponsored academies have improved more quickly over the past four years than all local authority schools, which is hardly surprising, is it?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Should high-performing local authorities be allowed to take over coasting academies?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Sir Daniel, do you agree that local authorities should be able to take over if they are high performing?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Okay. So we are not interested in high quality.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
While we are talking about data, the Local Schools Network has managed—incredibly, given the lateness with which the Government made public the regulations last night—to crunch the data and has found that 814 secondary schools would be defined as coasting under the Government’s regulations. Some 342 of those are academies, a high proportion of which are converter academies. That is surprising given that, as the Minister points out, those would have been good or outstanding when they were converted, but 125 of them had a progress 8 value added measure. Is progress 8 wrong, or is the Government’s definition of “coasting” wrong?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Yes.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Do you agree with the evidence in the previous session that it should be based solely or at least largely on progress rather than on a fresh value?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Do you think that it is dangerous to enforce this progress measure retrospectively?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
But given that progress 8 is not due to come in until 2016, is it right that it should measure schools back to 2014?
Flick Drummond (Conservative, Portsmouth South)
You have commented a bit, but I ask each member of the panel: which criteria would you use to identify a coasting school?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
But does not that tell you that the school is not outstanding in the first place?
Margot James (Conservative, Stourbridge)
I have two brief questions. First, Councillor Watts, you mentioned a concern you had about the capacity of high-performing academy chains to take over coasting schools. Earlier, we heard that, in a lot of cases, a school once defined as coasting will, in fact, be able to put its own house in order. Does that not alleviate your concerns about the capacity of these academy chains and high-performing groups?
My second question is to Sir Daniel. When you were answering the point about the measures that the Harris chain put in place to improve schools, you mentioned pupil tracking and discipline. Do you have your own pupil referral unit within your group? Could you comment on the issue of recycling disruptive pupils from school to school? To my mind, that is a real issue among the underperforming schools, particularly in areas of lower socio-economic status.
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
Any more questions? No. In that case, I thank the members of the panel for co-operating, and that has got us back on time. Thank you very much for your help.
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
Good morning. Thank you for coming along. Please introduce yourselves, starting with Dr Coulson.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
I welcome everybody to the Committee. I ask Dr Coulson, as a regional schools commissioner, to describe for the Committee your operation: what your office is like and what you do. How will you use the capacity you have to deal with all the schools that will be deemed “coasting” in your area as a result of this Bill?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Just to be clear, the operation consists of you and six civil servants. How many advisers?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
And are those full time?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
To finish, because I want others to get in, do you think you would need extra resources to deal with the extra responsibilities being given to you in relation to the coasting schools in the Bill? Or is your current operation adequate to take on and deal with the new responsibilities in an outstanding way?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
So to do an outstanding job you will need a little more extra resource is what you are telling us.
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
May I also place it on the record—I should have done it before—that I am chair of governors of an academy?
Zoe Carr, based on your extensive experience, how important is parental involvement and community engagement to the long-term improvement of a school?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
Thank you. That is an interesting response. Conversely, removing parents and the community from the discussion about the future of a school could presumably hinder improvement in the long term.
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
May I make a distinction then, before we carry on, because time is pressing—I am sorry for interrupting you—about failing schools? The evidence from the previous panel was clear on this, as well. The shadow Minister put on record that the Opposition agree that, with a failing school, the price of removing parental engagement is worth paying for the short-term improvement and benefit that can result from academisation. Many of us have experience of that. When it comes to coasting, do you think the price of removing community engagement and parental involvement is worth paying for the potential increase in outcomes that academisation will deliver?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
May I put the same question to Dr Major? Do you believe that where a school is coasting—not failing—removing consultation with parents and the community is likely to produce beneficial outcomes?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
As a final question, I invite you to put forward other tools that could be beneficial in challenging coasting schools, in addition to academisation. Is there any other way that engagement could be brought forward to provide the jolt that is needed?
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
We heard from the last panel—apologies, but this is again directed at Zoe—that geography is important when it comes to multi-academy trusts and that the region had an impact. It was easier to manage academies if they were in close proximity to each other. From your experience, what do you think there is by way of capacity in your area, were a number of the primary and secondary schools to be required to become sponsored academies? Is there the capacity there in the shape of sponsors?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Dr Major, the evidence that the Sutton Trust came up with suggested that, overall, multi-academy trusts—chains of academies—are not performing as well as local authorities, when it comes to looking after the schools they are responsible for. Given that academies are increasingly where we are going—and this legislation is going to accelerate that process—what is the answer? How do we make sure that sponsors improve so that they are outperforming the existing system?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Will you say a bit more about the accountability measure you are looking at for disadvantaged children?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
You mentioned the quality of leadership and teaching. Emma Knights mentioned that the accountability measures and the increasing complexity are not helping governors to recruit school leaders. What are your thoughts on what Emma Knights told us?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Coming back to the point about accountability measures and the changes that the Bill will bring about, are there things that you think we should look at as we examine the Bill line by line? Are there things we should look at changing to reduce the concerns that Emma Knights raised about recruitment?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
A question for Tim Coulson. Where will the additional sponsors come from to meet the expansion in the number of academies?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
How will you assure the quality of those sponsors? We have seen some high-profile problems. How will we avoid those?
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
I should say that I am a primary school governor. Dr Coulson, there are different tools for improving academies. Could you briefly explain a little about those? I understand that the Government will extend those methods to failing and coasting schools.
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
In your experience, how do headteacher boards use local knowledge to advise on decisions?
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
My question is to Dr Major. You mentioned parents and you also mentioned variation in schools. I am a bit concerned that sometimes the debate is about deprivation when actually, from my perspective, affluent schools are more likely to be coasting. Affluent areas really concern me. I want to come to the differential within schools and the role that parents play. What do you think the definition of coasting should be, considering the comments you have made and my concerns?
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
That is fine for schools as a single issue, but within schools? There are many affluent schools where there are affluent parents doing home teaching and those kids are moving on, but within that affluent area, within that single school, there are, as you say, variations, so that there are pupils whose parents are not allocated as much time, who are not succeeding as well, but that school is not deemed to be coasting. How are we going to measure failing pupils within a school? Predominately this is within affluent areas, but not exclusively. How are we going to measure that within schools? How are we going to deal with that issue in the legislation?
Graham Jones (Labour, Hyndburn)
Are you talking about two definitions? For example, you used the definition of free school meals. Are you saying that free school meals should be one definition within a school for coasting, and for schools, plural, and those not on free school meals another? Are you trying to differentiate the two within schools, as a measure of coasting, to try to determine what is happening within those schools, as well as within schools within an area?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
My question is to Zoe. You run a small academy chain, the WISE multi-academy trust. There are, I think, around 400 or 500 multi-academy trusts that have spun out of high-performing schools, whether primary or secondary. Can you tell us a bit about your story, what happened and how you improved the schools that you took over—what were they like before you took over and then what happened to those schools?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Which town?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
In terms of the life histories of those pupils if you had not intervened, what is the difference between the life chances of those pupils if they had been left where they were compared with their life chances now that they are part of your multi-academy trust?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Thank you very much. I have a quick question for Dr Major. The Sutton Trust produced a report fairly recently showing that high-performing key stage 2 pupils eligible for the pupil premium performed less well when they went on to do their GCSEs than high-performing key stage 2 pupils who were not eligible for the pupil premium. Can you say something about that report and answer whether you would accept that our focus on progress, in identifying coasting schools, is key to addressing that issue—not just for high-performing key stage 2 pupils eligible for the pupil premium but also for average and below-average pupils, to make sure that they all perform at the same rate as children from more affluent backgrounds?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
A thought has just occurred to me. I do not know if you heard the evidence from the first session when he heard Dr Allen talking about the problems of running a school in an area of deprivation. She said that is was very difficult to run a school in such an area. Her implication was that somehow a lower standard should be applied to those schools than to schools in more affluent areas. Do you reject that view as much as I do?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
There was a call to name names over here, but we will not hold you to it. Tim, do you have key performance indicators in your job relating to the percentage of schools becoming academies?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Do you see any problem at all with balancing the new powers that you are being given on coasting schools with having performance indicators relating to the number of academies within your area?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Do accountability measures for schools ever drive schools to teach to the test? That has been alleged. Do you think that that ever happens with schools?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
If accountability measures are influential for schools, why are they not influential for you in relation to coasting schools and your accountability measures relating to the academisation of schools? Why are you immune to the very thing you say schools suffer from?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
But you understand why some people might see a potential conflict of interest in those two objectives?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Interim executive boards were discussed earlier. In your opinion, through your long experience in education, are IEBs ever a way to deal with an inadequate school? Can that be the right solution sometimes?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Before you move on to that, can I make the point that I am trying to get to? Are IEBs ever a valuable way to deal with an inadequate school that is not on a pathway to academisation, but is nevertheless on a pathway to improvement within the maintained sector?
Suella Fernandes (Conservative, Fareham)
I am a chair of governors at a free school. I want to build on the Minister’s point about the measure used to identify standards in schools and the move to Progress 8. We heard evidence from Dr Allen, who did not really think that Progress 8 was a suitable standard because it did not capture data for the requisite amount of time and displayed the same social gradient. She also said that the assessment of coasting would add an extra layer of accountability, which schools would find confusing. Could you all say a bit about what you think of those comments and opinions?
John Pugh (Liberal Democrat, Southport)
I have two questions for Zoe Carr. You told us about the laudable efforts and improvements made by your trust. If, in years to come—heaven forbid—some of your schools or perhaps your whole trust is found to be coasting, you could not reasonably object to having imposed upon you the same disciplines, rigours and procedures as applied by the legislation to the maintained sector, could you?
John Pugh (Liberal Democrat, Southport)
You are suggesting currently you have that same kind of discipline.
John Pugh (Liberal Democrat, Southport)
Following on from what Peter Kyle said earlier about parental consultation, at first you started talking about underachieving or failing schools and then we got on to coasting schools. Is it your view that if a parent consultation indicates a marked lack of enthusiasm for the academy solution—in a school that is coasting but may be graded good or outstanding by Ofsted—none the less it would be right to ignore parental opinion?
John Pugh (Liberal Democrat, Southport)
Suppose parental opinion is, “No, we don’t want to become an academy” and this is a coasting school which may well be graded good. Is your view that it should still proceed in that circumstance?
John Pugh (Liberal Democrat, Southport)
Would your view therefore be that parents in that scenario would not know what was the best outcome for their children? That is the only rationale for doing that, is it not?
John Pugh (Liberal Democrat, Southport)
Parents at a good school might none the less not have the right view of their children’s educational welfare.
John Pugh (Liberal Democrat, Southport)
The parents will be too ignorant to make that sort of decision on their behalf?
John Pugh (Liberal Democrat, Southport)
Can I just persist with this point? You could give them the data as part of the consultation. Suppose you give them the data and you share all the data with them, and none the less it is their view in their school—this is my scenario—which may be a good school, but none the less is graded as coasting, that they would rather stay with the local authority than become an academy. Your view is still, in that circumstance where you share the data with them, that their view should be overridden.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
In the earlier session, we heard that we have little evidence of which formal intervention works best. There are anecdotal examples of academies that have improved, but clearly we cannot say across the board that academisation is the best answer for all schools. What is clear is that teaching and leadership is the most important factor in improving schools. Would you all therefore say whether the Bill will make it easier, harder or have no impact on the ability of schools to recruit and retain teachers?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
So probably no overall impact.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
So you think that an extra layer of accountability will act as a further disincentive to attracting headteachers into the most challenging areas.
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Do we need to be heaping further challenges on to what are already the most challenging schools through another accountability measure?
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
I want to fit in one more question.
Anne-Marie Trevelyan (Conservative, Berwick-upon-Tweed)
I declare that I am a governor of Berwick academy.
The question of the Bill being aimed at maintained schools, not academy schools, has been mentioned a lot. Is it your view that the existing regional schools commissioner framework is already working well enough to manage academy schools? We are obviously looking to send a lot more schools into that framework to manage the coasting or inadequacy issues within the academy framework.
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
I will give the last word to the Minister. You have one minute.
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
A question to Zoe Carr: would you prefer to be a headteacher in an academy or in a local authority school, and why?
Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)
That brings us to the end of our allotted time. On behalf of the Committee, I thank the witnesses for coming along and for helping us so much with what you had to say today.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Welcome back. Would the witnesses introduce themselves to the Committee?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
May I ask all three of you, what problem are these proposals designed to address and will they do it?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
If the problem is largely about matching and there is a postcode lottery, would it not make more sense to give the local authorities the role of purchaser and allow specialised agencies with all their expertise to go out, find the families and do the matching? Would that not be just as adequate a solution as this proposal?
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Dr Homden.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Sir Alan, before we come to Dr Homden, could I just check something? I was asking why not go for a purchaser-provider split, and Sir Martin said that the great thing is that this proposal is permissive, non-prescriptive and allows people to innovate. Actually, the legislation before us for which you are a witness, is about the powers of direction that the Secretary of State is planning to take. Is that not the case, Sir Martin?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Sir Martin, that may be the case. The point I am making is that you cannot say that the legislation creates this permissive environment. The legislation is to give the Minister powers of direction. Your desire in what he is telling people externally may be what you are describing, but the legislation is about giving him powers of direction.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Thank you.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Dr Homden, I think you were about to answer the question before we went to vote.
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
The relevant clause in the Bill talks only about adoption, but there other forms of permanence. In fact, for most children in care, the other forms of permanence are where they end up. Do you have concerns that the measure will exacerbate an existing gap in the quality—or perceived quality, at least—of adoption and fostering, residential care and kinship care?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Before I come to Dr Homden and Annie Crombie, is there anything in the Bill that will help children who are placed through other forms of permanence?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
As far as you are concerned, will the Bill’s provisions help with the challenges you have outlined?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Will the Bill help with children who are sometimes regarded as hard to place—sibling groups or children with disabilities, for example?
Emma Lewell-Buck (Labour, South Shields)
Good afternoon. My question is to everyone in turn. The Bill states that an authority’s functions may be taken on by either another local authority or another adoption agency but there is nothing to say which criteria the Secretary of State will choose for the preferred option. I was wondering whether the panel could help out the Secretary of State and suggest what kind of criteria she might use.
Emma Lewell-Buck (Labour, South Shields)
I understand that different local authorities and different areas might have different approaches, but do the members of the panel agree that it is important for the local authorities and agencies that are affected by this that there should be some kind of criteria in place? I think that Dr Homden and Annie Crombie agree, but Sir Martin does not.
Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)
I wanted to pick up on something that Dr Homden said, with which I will not disagree. She referred to looking at road transport as the means of establishing a hub. Presumably you have already given consideration to island regions where road transport is not possible, Dr Homden?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
Annie, you mentioned the inter-agency barriers that still exist. Could you confirm that the Bill actually does nothing to address any of those barriers other than creating bigger agencies? Secondly, to the whole panel, do you think that this will actually restrict choice for adopters in terms of agencies at a local level?
Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)
Carol very helpfully set out some guiding principles on what should underpin the development of regional adoption agencies to make sure that they are driving the excellence that we want to see, as we have set out in our “Regionalising adoption” paper. Could you also say what the risks are of the Secretary of State being overly prescriptive through a direction about what that regional adoption agency should look like, given that we are hoping and expecting this to come from the bottom up on a local level rather than be dictated from the centre?
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
We have time for just one more question, and then we will have to wind up and move on to the next session.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
You said that these powers will not be used. If they are, should the people affected have a right to challenge any decisions made by the Minister? Is there anything about these proposals that you would do differently? One word and one sentence will suffice.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Sir Martin, Dr Homden and Ms Crombie, thank you very much for your participation. We are very grateful. We will now move on to the next session.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Mr Thornbery and Mr Leary-May, we will ask you to present a background of yourselves to Committee members, who will then ask you questions. We apologise for the earlier delay, which was due to votes in the House. Your session should continue until approximately 3.40 pm. Mr Thornbery, would you like to make your presentation?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
We are frequently told that these proposals are designed to address the problem of the 3,000 or so children who are languishing in the system and could and should be adopted. Where does that figure come from, and is it accurate?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
I do not know whether you heard the earlier evidence, but we were told that voluntary adoption agencies consistently achieve better inspection ratings than local authorities. Do you have any concerns that voluntary adoption agencies could be marginalised by these proposals?
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
How can we avoid voluntary adoption agencies being marginalised? You have both said that that is a risk.
James Berry (Conservative, Kingston and Surbiton)
So your concerns are capable of being dealt with within the framework proposed here?
Emma Lewell-Buck (Labour, South Shields)
Good afternoon. As you are aware, adoption is only proposed for a child after all other avenues have been explored. Do you think that some of the money that the Government spend on these reforms might be better spent in social work teams, so that they could assess quicker and rule out or rule in family members before they get to the plan for adoption?
Anne-Marie Trevelyan (Conservative, Berwick-upon-Tweed)
You mentioned in your written submission that this may prove more difficult for children with complex needs, although it might be successful for children who are less needy. Could you expand on why you think that is the case?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
You said earlier that you wanted to clarify what the problems are that the Bill is addressing. You mentioned issues around children with complex needs; is that the primary one or are there others?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Okay. In the last session, I think we heard the suggestion that the Bill will help with other forms of permanence, so even though it concentrates just on adoption, it will help with fostering, residential care and kinship care. Do you both agree?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
Do you think the Bill helps with or hinders other forms of permanence?
Flick Drummond (Conservative, Portsmouth South)
How do you think the local authorities will work in this regional way? Will it mean that they work better with and have better relationships with voluntary organisations?
Flick Drummond (Conservative, Portsmouth South)
Going on to adopters, what do you think about the support for them? Are you quite happy that there will be enough support for the child and the adoptive parents if people are adopting from another region quite a long way away?
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Thank you very much. I will call the last Member to ask questions in a minute. What you are telling us is very informative, but can you be slightly more concise? We have very few minutes left.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Thank you, Sir Alan. There is only one clause in the Bill about adoption. In theory, what should happen after this session is that we look at your evidence and then think of any further amendment or improvements that might be made to the Bill. Unfortunately, because clause 13 is being debated on Thursday, we are out of time for that, but the Chairs have indicated that they will look favourably on any amendments that we might submit, even at this late stage, before Thursday. Is there anything that you think should be added to the Bill to improve it by way of an amendment or new clause?
Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)
In the Children and Families Act 2014, we took a backstop power in relation to the recruitment of adopters, so we could ensure that enough came forward who could be assessed and approved for the children still waiting to be placed for adoption. We have not had to use that power, and we have been successful in increasing recruitment by, I think, more than 27% in the past 18 months to two years.
This power widens it out to include matching and support, which we have discussed in this session. Based on the fact that there are already good working relationships between local authorities and consortia, which often include voluntary adoption agencies, and based on our statement on page 12 that, as we articulate in our paper “Regionalising adoption”, we need to harness the important role of voluntary adoption agencies in forming regional adoption agencies, how confident are you that in the next few years, through the work of the Department, yourselves and others with an interest in getting it right, we can ensure that we scale up services in all those areas so that we do not need to use the power on recruitment, as we have not yet had to do?
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Mr Thornbery and Mr Leary-May, we are very grateful for the evidence that you have put forward to us today. We may be in touch again if anything crops up from that evidence or if we need something further. Thank you very much for your attendance. That concludes your participation.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Ms O'Sullivan, Ms Sharkey and Mr Elvin, we will allow you to present your CV to the Committee and then the Committee will have a variety of questions that it hopes you can answer.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Good afternoon. Do you have any views on governance and accountability for these new regional arrangements?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
Thank you. You have all got different experience of the issues of placing children. Do you recognise the problem of the harder-to-place children? Who in your judgment are harder-to-place children, and how will these proposals specifically help them?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
May I pick up on the point you were just making? What needs to happen to get more people to come forward as either adopters or foster-carers? Are there issues around education, awareness and being much more honest with people, or is something else needed to increase the number of people available?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
You mention the trauma—would you comment on the state of mental health services and support from child and adolescent mental health services?
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Mrs O'Sullivan, can I ask you to raise your voice ever so slightly? It is not your fault; the acoustics are really bad in this room, as is well known to all the Members, and it would help us if you could speak up a little.
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
I have only one question. Andy, to follow up on a comment you made earlier, you described the failure to place, and powerfully described how that was not the fault of the child but the fault of the system. Who pays the price for failure, what agency pays the price—or does an agency pay the price for failure, as things stand? Will this Bill change that?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
So if you were in the fortunate position that we are in of being able to table amendments to the Bill, or to add something to this legislation, what would it be?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
I have other questions, but would the other witnesses like to comment on either the failure aspect or the contribution aspect?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
It strikes me that given that improved quality of parenting, higher aspiration, more stability and a better voice for young people who are looked after in care should, as ever, be our principles, we should have had some young people giving evidence to our session today. It is all of our faults for not making sure that that happened, as it would have been useful. If there is any written evidence, we should take very close account of it.
While you are here, Alison, I wonder if I might ask you as a director of children’s services who also has some responsibility for education—the Bill includes clauses on education—whether you think the regional schools commissioner in your area has the capacity to increase their oversight of schools as envisaged in the Bill, from 500 academies or so in your area to about 2,500 schools under their new responsibilities for issuing warning notices and, on top of that, having responsibility for dealing with coasting schools? Do you think they have the capacity to do that with a maximum of about seven staff?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
On that point, do you think that DCSs should be members of the teacher advisory boards, given that they are now taking over responsibility around maintained schools as well?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Could I ask finally whether you think it will be necessary for the things contained in the Bill to be achieved on the school side for the staff to be transferred from local authorities to the regional schools commissioners?
Suella Fernandes (Conservative, Fareham)
The provision on adoption aims to try and solve the problem of long-term decline in adoption. At the moment, as we all know, it is happening at too small and too localised a scale. It is hoped that the attempt to regionalise agencies and bring them together will encourage agencies to cast their net more widely, reduce the problems of delay, and encourage local authorities to look outside their immediate local area. We have heard a lot about this today. One problem which has been cited is the reluctance of local authorities to place children outside a particular area. What appetite do you think there is for looking further afield geographically?
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
We still have a few more questions to come and we have very little time, so can I ask the contributors to be a bit more succinct in their answers?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
In the written evidence, we were told that the best way to achieve permanence is with low staff turnover and support from the best and most appropriate workforce. Do you think those are accurate descriptions of the environment that local authorities and adoption agencies have found themselves in during the last few years?
Louise Haigh (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
The British Association of Social Workers has said that the Bill will contribute to demoralising social workers. Do you agree?
Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)
Can I take us back to the clause in the Bill looking specifically at the point at which the permanence decision has been made and what flows thereafter for those for whom that decision is adoption? I have two points to underpin that. First, we are not proposing something new here. A lot of this already exists. Could you tell me where you have come across a consortium of either local authorities or voluntary adoption agencies and local authorities working together that has impressed you most and that does not happen to be your own?
Secondly, in relation to the specialist support services that we know many children who are adopted need, how is the regional agency adoption approach having a positive effect, where we are already starting to see it happen?
Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)
Glad to hear it.
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
I have heard what has been said about permanence but, given that this legislation is supposed to be about speeding up the adoption process, cutting out the delays and helping match children to families—that is what we are taking evidence on—is there anything missing from the legislation that we should be taking on board and which would really make a difference to speeding up adoption and helping the matching process?
Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)
How would you stop that happening?
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Mr Elvin, Ms Sharkey and Ms O'Sullivan, we are grateful for your participation. We will examine the evidence that you have given and deliberate on it. We may come back to you about that evidence or, indeed, we may ask you some more queries in the future. We wish you a safe journey home.
Examination of Witness
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Mr Hobby, I am pleased that you have been able to come to give evidence to the Committee. May I ask you a couple of favours? First, before we open the question and answer period, would you present yourself and your CV? Secondly, because this is a terrible room for acoustics—you are not supposed to admit to things like that in Parliament, but it really is not very good at all—would you raise your voice a little bit? It would help the Members. We will not be in this room in future—you have been unfortunate, as we have, to land here today. Without further ado, will you present yourself to the Committee?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Since time is very short and we do not have the pleasure of your company for long, can you tell us, as succinctly as possible, what you think about the Bill and what you would do to amend or improve it?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Do you think that the Government sometimes think it is ultimately possible for all schools to be above average?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
A final question. Could the whole issue of coasting schools be dealt with in the inspection regime? Is there a danger that there could be confusion about accountability if we have two separate regimes running side by side?
Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)
If having a good headteacher is the best indicator of success in a school, what would you like to see in the legislation to increase the numbers of good headteachers?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
A quick question: are you happy with the concept of using a progress measure and not just an attainment measure to define a coasting school?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
As a concept, are you comfortable that we have done the right thing and not just gone for attainment?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
May I ask you about the whole concept of coasting schools? As a leading figure in education in this country, do you think we are right to address coasting schools as an issue where intervention may be necessary?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Are you not happy that we are using national leaders of education as part of the intervention process, before any decision has been made about academisation, and that that cadre—many of whom are, I presume, members of your association—will be at the forefront of challenging, tackling, helping and supporting coasting schools?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
All the Ministers have made it clear that they want a real approach to school improvement, using national leaders of education and looking at the plans of the schools. You should be reassured on that front. Thank you for your evidence.
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Mr Hobby, there may shortly be a vote and two Members have indicated that they wish to ask a question, so I will take both questions together. Could you sum up quickly, because I think we will leave shortly?
Suella Fernandes (Conservative, Fareham)
What is your experience of headteacher boards and what is your view of the impact that they can have on helping schools improve?
Peter Kyle (Labour, Hove)
In a follow-up to the shadow Minister’s question, you expressed concern about the confusion in the framework for monitoring and evaluation that could result from this. How would that play out in a school and what impact would having different authorities responsible for different areas of monitoring, evaluation and standards have on the leadership of the school?
Alan Meale (Labour, Mansfield)
Thank you very much indeed. We will examine your remarks thoroughly and digest them. We may come back to you either on that or other questions. One or two other Members from both sides of the Committee have indicated that they would like to ask questions, so you might get a response back from the Committee. We thank you for your attendance. Members need to be aware that there is likely to be a vote any minute.