Childcare Payments Bill
Public Bill Committee, 14 October 2014.
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Just before we kick off, I will make some housekeeping announcements. First, apologies for the cramped conditions in this room, but I am reliably informed that a number of Public Bill Committees are going on today, so rooms are at a premium. May I also ask that any electrical devices are either turned off or put on silent? Teas, coffees and so on are not allowed in the room during Committee sittings. The notice period for amendments is three working days. Amendments tabled with inadequate notice will not normally be selected.
The Committee will first consider the programme motion on the amendment paper and the amendment that has been tabled to it. It will then consider a motion to permit the Committee to deliberate in private and then a motion to report written evidence. Then, assuming that the first of those three motions has been agreed to, the Committee will move into private session. Once it has deliberated, the witnesses and members of the public will be invited back into the room and the oral evidence session will begin.
I call the Minister to move the programme motion. May I suggest that she and other Members make any points relating to the programme motion or the amendment now? I will call the Minister to move the amendment formally after that.
Priti Patel (Conservative, Witham)
I beg to move,
That—
(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 9.25 am on Tuesday 14 October) meet—
(a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 14 October;
(b) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 16 October;
(c) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 21 October;
(d) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 23 October;
(e) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 28 October;
(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:
Date
Time
Witness
Tuesday 14 October
Until no later than 10.30 am
National Day Nurseries
Association; British Association
for Professional Nannies
Tuesday 14 October
Until no later than 11.00 am
National Savings and
Investments
Tuesday 14 October
Until no later than 2.30 pm
Childcare Voucher Providers
Association
Tuesday 14 October
Until no later than 3.15 pm
4Children; Working Families;
Mumsnet
Tuesday 14 October
Until no later than 4.00 pm
Citizens Advice; Low Incomes
Tax Reform Group of the
Chartered Institute of Taxation;
Family Childcare Trust
Tuesday 14 October
Until no later than 4.45 pm
Children’s Society; Child
Poverty Action Group
Thursday 16 October
Until no later than 12.30 pm
Women’s Business Council;
Chartered Institute of Payroll
Professionals; Chartered
Institute of Personnel and
Development
Thursday 16 October
Until no later than 1.00 pm
Dr Kitty Stewart, London
School of Economics and
Political Science
Thursday 16 October
Until no later than 2.30 pm
Institute for Public Policy
Research; Resolution
Foundation
Thursday 16 October
Until no later than 3.15 pm
Her Majesty’s Treasury; Her
Majesty’s Revenue and Customs
(3) the proceedings on the Bill shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Tuesday 28 October.
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan. A straightforward amendment has been tabled to the programme motion. Since the Programming Sub-Committee agreed the resolution in September, a representative from the Women’s Business Council, who was due to give evidence on Thursday, is no longer able to do so. The amendment therefore removes the council from the table of witnesses.
With your leave, Mr Sheridan, I will also mention briefly that I intend to table amendments to the draft secondary legislation made under the Bill. These have been prompted by concerns raised by some of the witnesses who will be called during the first two days of the Committee. I will say more about them when I am called to give evidence on Thursday, but in the meantime I will write to members of the Committee to provide greater detail on what they are intended to achieve.
Examination of Witnesses
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
We will now hear oral evidence from the National Day Nurseries Association and the Association for Professional Nannies. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I would like to remind all Members that we must stick to the timings in the programme motion. The Committee has agreed that, for this session, we have until 10.30 am. Could I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves to the Committee?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
It would be helpful if you could speak a bit louder, because we are struggling to hear.
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Thank you, and welcome to the Committee. I now call the first Member—Catherine McKinnell.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Good morning. Are you happy for me to refer to you by your first names for the purpose of this Committee?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Thank you. As a general opening question to both of you, could you give your thoughts on the Bill as a whole to set the scene for the Committee?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Thank you. That is helpful. Do you anticipate an increase in demand for child care as a result of the Bill? That is to both of you.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
To continue on from that point, accepting that there will be an increase in demand and reflecting your concerns, Purnima, do you both have concerns that there is insufficient supply in the market at the moment to meet that demand? If you agree, will there be sufficient supply by 2015, when we may see an increase in demand as a result of the Bill?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Just to follow on from that in relation to nannies in particular, do you anticipate that more nannies will become registered as a consequence of this Bill, which should therefore increase the quality of that provision?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
On the requirement for registration in order to access the additional tax relief for the child care, putting aside the quality issues, which are not specifically dealt with in the Bill, what should the Government do to increase, encourage or support the uptake of registration as a step towards ultimately achieving the quality that you hope to achieve?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Thank you. I am aware that other Members have questions, but I want to ask Purnima another question. On your website you have a table, which you describe as a “useful table”, showing the level of monthly child care costs after which the tax-free child care offer will be a better option than the current child care vouchers. The table suggests that parents may be better off, but only once they start spending a significant amount of their income on child care. Obviously, you are not able to predict the number of parents who will come into the system, but have you had an indication of what proportion of parents will be better off under the new scheme, as opposed to the current scheme?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
I have one final question—there are many more I could ask, but I want to open up the floor. In terms of the practicalities you mentioned, nurseries take a direct payment per child, and it is the same with childminders, generally speaking. Often, where nannies are concerned, it is because you have multiple children that you enter into that type of arrangement under the care of one person. Do you have an understanding of how this will work in practice? If you have one nanny and three children, do you have to open three accounts and pay the nanny from three different sources to access the support?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Let us move on now. I call Maria Miller.
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Thank you, Mr Sheridan.
First, I thank the organisations that are represented here for the excellent briefings that they have provided to the Committee, which have been incredibly helpful in our consideration of the Bill. With record numbers of women in work, it is really welcome to see this additional support for women and mothers, but I want in particular to press Purnima on some of the work that she put into the brief about the choices that will face parents, because with the new system being put in place—the tax relief system—there will be up to four different streams of funding for families to choose from. That is welcome, because more families will be supported, but what sort of support do you think parents will need so that they are able to make the right decision for their circumstances? When I talked to parents in my constituency, they certainly raised that with me as an issue that they wanted to understand better. How can they make good choices for their own family circumstances? Have you any thoughts on that?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
And, inevitably, family circumstances do change and it would not be always possible to make exactly the right choice at one point in time for the future, but at least having the information will help families.
Another area I am interested in—it was not in the briefings that I have seen, although it may have been included elsewhere—is the challenges facing parents with disabled children, particularly. I met a group in my constituency who attend a fantastic nursery called KIDS, which specialises in supporting disabled children. Finding support for disabled children can be very difficult. The point that was put to me was that there cannot be a differential cost. The same has to be charged for non-disabled and disabled children, and that is perhaps causing a problem of supply in the sector. Is there anything that you think the Bill could do to help to alleviate that?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Under the current law, they are not able to allow differential rates. Will there be an opportunity—perhaps not now, but in the future—to acknowledge the differential cost and therefore make differential payments for people with disabled children?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Would there be any knock-on benefits for nannies, as the same challenges apply to nannies who are caring for disabled children?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
I have a couple of different points to put to you, the first of which is about how the Bill will affect child care costs, which we have seen going up over time. For many providers, there is very little profit margin, yet child care is still very expensive for parents. How do you think the Bill will affect child care costs, given that there is going to be extra money in the system? Do you think prices might go up because providers will try to make ends meet a bit more as a result of knowing that families will have more money to spend?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
May I press you on that? Given that context, do you think that some providers, knowing that suddenly a parent will receive 20% of the costs that they were not previously getting, will think that it is an opportunity to put up prices by 5% because parents will still be better off and that will help providers to make ends meet? Do you get any feeling of that at the moment?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Following on from that, we have talked about perhaps using this extra sort of subsidy to see how we can lever in more quality to the PVI and the nanny sector. What mechanisms do you think could be brought into play to stop price inflation, as well as looking at quality alongside the measures in the Bill?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
No, I mean price inflation by providers involving the subsidy that has nothing to do with local authorities but is included in the Bill—so-called tax free child care.
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
So I guess there will be increased demand but no increase in supply. Providers are already under pressure, so it is possible that prices will go up.
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
I have one other point. Following on from an earlier question, what is your view about the interaction of the scheme with existing schemes—particularly tax credits, which will soon become universal credit—and those families that will sit on the boundary between those two schemes? There is provision for people to change only twice in a year. What is your view about how that will play for some families?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Have you got anything to add, Frances?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
I am conscious of the time. Two Committee members have indicated that they wish to speak. Brevity would be appreciated.
Robert Jenrick (Conservative, Newark)
My colleague Lucy Powell has already asked about price inflation and you answered that very interestingly. Obviously, it is one of those sectors where, while many people in it work on very low wages, affordability for parents is key. Maintaining that was always a concern of mine, which you have addressed.
Specifically on nannies, one area in addressing the cost of nannies is supply. You have spoken about the large number of nannies who are not registered. I do not know what our best guess is of the percentage of the sector who choose not to register. Of course, they choose not to register for many reasons, including the ones you have just alluded to, such as tax and other issues. How realistic do you think it is that large numbers of unregistered nannies would choose to register and provide the supply required for parents to be able to make use of this new opportunity?
Robert Jenrick (Conservative, Newark)
Thank you. Do you think it will increase the cost of nannies if more have to register and, in all likelihood, more tax is paid by the families employing them? Does that mean that the cost of a nanny is going to increase significantly as a result?
Robert Jenrick (Conservative, Newark)
But there is no evidence that an Ofsted-registered nanny is materially more expensive than a non-Ofsted-registered one.
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Thank you. This will probably be the final question. David Heath.
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
I apologise for asking questions almost from behind you due to the design of the room. You talked about the distribution of access and said that there were significant regional differences. I represent a very rural area and my perception is that access is limited the more into the country you get. Is that supported by evidence across the country? Are there deserts of provision in rural areas?
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
I think you are absolutely right. You need that critical mass in order to run a business, and transport costs for parents are key to that. Have you any view about the relative proportions of the costs of transport and of fees for an average family? It seems to me that for many people in rural areas, transport costs are a significant proportion of the total cost of child care.
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
Is there any correlation between the supply of places and cost? In other words, does limited supply drive up the fee structure, or is there no real correlation?
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
One last question, if I may. There is an assumption that one of the outcomes of the Bill will be to increase demand. I think everybody assumes that. Do you see demand increasing in the form of more families reaching the threshold of affordability, where they can now send a child to nursery provision when they would not previously have been able to? Alternatively, would we expect the increased Treasury contribution to mean that those who are already sending a child for a limited number of hours can afford more hours? Will the key driver of increased demand be more children or more hours within nurseries?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Before you answer, perhaps I could request that you be brief because we have another question coming up.
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
One final question. Nic Dakin?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Thank you. Both witnesses seem to have indicated a challenge that will occur as the likely demand increases. As you have described, this is maintaining or even improving quality. Purnima spoke earlier about the need for national standards to be driven up. Where do you see the leadership for that coming from, and are you confident that it will be there?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Frances, you seem to be indicating that, for registration, there is currently a fairly low threshold in terms of quality. Are you arguing for a higher threshold or is that satisfactory?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
As there seem to be no further questions, I thank the witnesses on behalf of the Committee. They were very informative and will certainly help us in our deliberations. Thank you very much.
Examination of Witness
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
I remind colleagues that we have until 11 o’clock for this session. I ask the witness to introduce herself to the Committee.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Hi. Do you mind if I call you Jane?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Could you set out your estimate of the number of child care accounts you expect to open under this scheme, once the Bill is rolled out?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Okay. The figure I understand we are working with is up to 1.9 million families. Obviously, the number of individual accounts is significantly more, given that the scheme will be dealt with on a child-by-child basis. You mentioned that the figures involved are well within your current capabilities, but there is likely to be a significant increase in a very short space of time as parents look to register for the scheme. Could you just outline what resources are in place to meet that demand?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
My understanding is that the new system will require the development of an entirely new IT system to manage the accounts. Could you confirm that that is the case? If so, what steps are being taken to develop that system so that it will be ready in time?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Thank you. That is very helpful, because there has not been very much information available to date as to the processes and systems, or what the requirements will be of NS&I. In terms of manipulating the current systems to meet the demand for these new child care payments, you say that you are at the development stage. Could you elaborate on that in terms of the process that will be required between now and roll-out in 2015?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Under current proposals, parents will have to reconfirm their eligibility every three months, presumably through that interface that you will be developing. Could you elaborate on how that process will work for parents? How long do you estimate that it will take a parent to enrol initially and to re-enrol or reconfirm every three months? Will it simply be a tick box, or will there be many forms to fill in?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
You say that, but obviously it is very much dependent on that interface with HMRC. Could you just elaborate on exactly how that interface will work? Will it log into the real time information system, for example? How will you monitor that eligibility? Parents are expected to reconfirm every three months, but obviously there need to be checks and balances at each stage of the process as well.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Just to clarify, if it is linking in with the HMRC system, and presumably if it is linking in with the RTI system, which is a real-time information check on the information that parents are providing, why is there a requirement for parents to reconfirm every three months? That is one of the big concerns; that this is going to be administratively burdensome for parents accessing child care, who we know are already pretty hard-pressed for time.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Are you suggesting that it may not be necessary within the system that you are devising if there is a constant check anyway?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Okay. I have one or two more questions. You mentioned the number of systems that NS&I is currently in the process of managing, so could you give an overview of what your current relationship is with Atos and how the relationship with Atos will work in terms of the delivery of the child care payments?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
You will be aware of the concerns that have been expressed around some of the more high-profile projects that Atos has been involved in delivering, such as the work capability assessments and personal independence payments. What steps are being taken to ensure that we do not see similar concerns coming to light in relation to the delivery of this project and the child care payments?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Be very brief, Ms McKinnell.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
So you are confident that in contracting with Atos, NS&I will be able to deliver the child care payments plan on time as expected in 2015?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Perhaps the question on HMRC could be answered by a Minister at a later date.
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Jane, thank you so much for the information you have given us, and it is reassuring to hear about the experience that you have in delivering these sorts of projects. Is this project a little different though? Some 80% of the organisations providing child care, which will be at the other end of the flow of money that you talked about, are small businesses—providers that are running on incredibly tight margins. Therefore, cash flow is going to be an incredibly important issue for them. To what extent can you be confident that you can deliver that money into their hands, speedily?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
As we have heard from previous individuals giving evidence, the schemes will be running concurrently, so there will be voucher schemes running concurrently with the new tax-free scheme. Do you see that posing any problems to your organisation?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
On that point, we were talking to the NDNA, which, in its evidence, suggested perhaps considering a code of conduct—a set of rules or an agreement on the way that you might be interacting with the sector, much in the same way as the child care voucher providers set up a code of conduct for their relationship with the sector. Is that something that you would welcome?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
So it is something that the Minister should perhaps consider.
At the risk of incurring your wrath, Mr Sheridan, I have a final point. Based on the evidence that we have been given previously, enabling parents to make good choices is going to be quite important, whether they are going for tax-free child care or other subsidies that the Government make available to parents in support of child care. Is the supply of information to parents to help them make that choice something that your organisation could get involved in? I know that it would be up to HMRC but, practically, is that something in which you may have a role to play, or is that more difficult for reasons you might want to explain?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
But it may be something, from what you have said, that we could press the Minister and HMRC on. It sounds like you would have a lot to bring to the table.
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Thank you.
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Just a reminder that we are due to finish at 11 o’clock. Three Members are indicating that they wish to speak, so brevity would be appreciated.
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Thank you for coming, Jane. Before it was announced that NS&I would be the single contractor, we had some concerns about there being lots of different providers so it is welcome that there is only going to be one and that it will be NS&I; as you say, you come with a great deal of credibility in the area. Given that, and as we have less than a year to go before this becomes live, are you worried about your credibility and reputation? There are so many other players in the mix who you are going to be reliant upon to offer that speedy service—HMRC at the input point, Atos at the middle point, and Ofsted and others at the output point. We have less than a year to go. How confident are you that that whole pipeline is going to work?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
In reply to a previous question, you said, “This is an area I am very confident about.” That suggests to me that there may be some areas about which you are less confident. I wonder whether part of that is the signing-off bit, if you like, on the HMRC end of things—families proving that they are a qualifying family. How detailed are those discussions at this stage? How confident are you that that is going to be as speedy as your customers will expect? They will expect it to be almost instantaneous—they fill in a form and within, say, a 24-hour period their account is set up. How confident are you about that at the moment?
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
A point was raised earlier about how the payments are critical to both the parent and the supplier. The supplier is often working hand to mouth, with disastrous results when payments are discontinued, although less so at the beginning. The original assessment is not the problem; the problem is when payments suddenly stop in the middle. Is it possible to design your system so that it is failsafe in supporting the parent and the provider, rather than failsafe in supporting the Treasury? There seems to be a capacity for HMRC to screw up your system by not providing the information that you need, which in turn will have a disastrous effect on the individual.
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
I understand that, which is why I phrased my question in that way. Is it possible for you to produce a system that is failsafe in the direction of the consumer?
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
I don’t remember ever being told by my Department that anything is possible. The other key issue, following on from Ms Miller’s question, is that you said you have experience of providing explanatory material. Have you been asked to do so?
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
Jane, you may recall that, some years ago, the previous Government set up things called individual learning accounts, which did not work very well and, frankly, went horribly wrong. Are there any lessons from that experience, which had certain parallels with this kind of mechanism? Have you drawn on any lessons learned from other things that went wrong in IT-land for Governments in previous times to ensure that this system will be delivered effectively and work well?
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
Was it the decision of your organisation to appoint Atos?
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
It was a fair, free and open tendering process?
Bob Russell (Liberal Democrat, Colchester)
I want to follow up on the point made by my colleague David Heath. Whose responsibility will it be to inform folk that their payment has been stopped?
Bob Russell (Liberal Democrat, Colchester)
I would ask for that clarity because, with respect, not everybody will have online access. I suspect that every MP here today will be aware of constituents who suddenly find when they try to buy something that benefits have stopped and nobody has told them. Following on from the point that Mr Heath made, I can see issues arising with payments being stopped and nobody knowing until some while later.
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
In your evidence, for which we thank you, you sound pretty confident about taking this forward, but constrained a bit with reference to the legal challenge. Will you give us the factual information about what the legal challenge is?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Thank you for that. We heard evidence from the NDNA earlier that there will be a need to develop sound standards around how this system operates. They seem to believe that you ought to have a role in developing those standards; is that something that you are taking on board?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Do you see standards as an issue in taking this work forward?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
This is a follow-up to your previous answer about the legal challenge. What stage in the process is it at, and is it having an impact, as you alluded to, on your ability to plan properly at this stage for 2015?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Do you have a time frame, or a date when you anticipate the legal challenge will be resolved?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
There are no further questions, so I thank our witness for giving us that evidence; I am sure that it will help us in our further deliberations.
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
Our first witness is from the Childcare Voucher Providers Association. Good afternoon, Mr Foster. We have until 2.30 pm for this witness although if the panel feels that it has exhausted its questions before then we can finish earlier.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Good afternoon. Thank you for coming along. Is it okay if we call you Julian?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Could you start by setting out your views on the move away from employer-supported child care towards the so-called tax-free child care system that is set out in this Bill?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Thank you. One of the concerns is that the new system will remove the role of employers within the scheme. In what way do you feel the current scheme supports and encourages family-friendly practices in businesses, and how should the Government look at the implementation of this new system to ensure that that is not lost?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Given that the new scheme is likely in time to replace the voucher scheme completely, how could the benefits from the current scheme not be lost under the new scheme?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
It is interesting that you mention the amount of time that employees currently spend administering the system. Obviously parents also spend some time administering it from their end. But I think it forms a useful comparison, because as yet the sort of time scales that might be involved in administering the new system are unclear. Regardless of that, are you aware of the views of parents about whether they would be better off under the voucher system or the proposed new system?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Julian, when you look at the basics of your business model, it is about taking a cut of a tax break designed to support families to fund your business. Can you tell the Committee how much of your profits come from that Government tax break?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Roughly, in pounds, then.
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Okay. Just so I have got it really clear, how much of your bottom-line profit comes from tax breaks for British taxpayers?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Would it be possible for you to write to the Committee to give us a more detailed answer on that?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Okay, that would be really helpful.
The thing that we were hearing about this morning from the National Day Nurseries Association and other people giving evidence was that the market is complicated and that parents have a lot to juggle, so they want a system that is easier. Parents really want to have something that is simple and straightforward. I do not know whether I am misinterpreting your proposals, but I do not see that they make life easier for parents; they seem to perhaps ignore that need for simplicity.
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
I guess what I was pressing at was having a multitude of different ways into getting tax breaks rather than having one way, which would be to have the tax-free child care through an account—
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
Sorry, Ms Miller, could I just ask you to speak up a bit? The volume is not very good on the speakers in here.
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Apologies. What I was really pressing at was that parents want simplicity in the number of ways to get tax-free child care. One thing that some voucher providers have talked about—I think your organisation has as well—is actually delivering tax-free child care accounts themselves. We were hearing this morning from National Savings and Investments about the volume that this could entail: up to 1.9 million potential applicants. Indeed, that number could be even higher if applicants have more than one child. Are you sure that you can deliver that scale of operation, given that the number of people who currently get child care vouchers is significantly lower than that?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
But how many parents with child care vouchers do you currently have in the UK?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
So is moving from that to an operation of the scale of 1.9 million something that you feel you can achieve?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Hi, Julian. I will declare an interest: I am a child care voucher user. It is a simple scheme for a large number of people who use it. On transferring that to the proposed scheme, have you done any analysis about the clearest loser group—single-earner families? Do you have any figures on how many single-earner families currently receive child care vouchers? As a sub-group of that, do you know how many families there are where one person works and the other is in training or education, who will therefore lose out under this scheme?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
You were talking earlier about how the new scheme will work—how people pay into it and get out of it, revalidation and so on. Many families use the current scheme to pay for school holidays: they pay in throughout the year and then have a large outgoing during the summer holidays. Will people be able to do that to the same degree under the new scheme?
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
Three Members wish to ask questions. We have 10 minutes for that and to get the answers.
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
Julian, I was just trying to understand what your objection is. At the moment you have a voucher system and the Government will be targeting this much more at the child care costs of hard-working parents. What do you object to other than the political choice being made?
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
What we are doing, effectively, is shifting what was a generous tax break to employers much more directly to the parents. Do you welcome that?
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
But can you see, from our point of view, why we want it to apply to the many rather than the few?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
What is your view of the Government’s decision to task NS&I with delivering child care accounts?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Do you foresee any other challenges for NS&I in delivering the child care accounts?
Andrew Jones (Conservative, Harrogate and Knaresborough)
NS&I seems to me to have the benefit of a Government guarantee on parents’ money in a child care account. If parents were depositing their own money with a voucher provider how would it be guaranteed that their money was protected? A comparison might be the Farepak situation: the money had been deposited and then that particular provider went bust.
Andrew Jones (Conservative, Harrogate and Knaresborough)
It is about protection if the companies go broke—that is my point.
Andrew Jones (Conservative, Harrogate and Knaresborough)
That sounds quite complicated to me. You are talking about a lot of different measures.
Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)
You have mentioned that one of the deficiencies you saw in the proposed scheme was that it was less progressive than what you would have had under the existing voucher scheme. Can you give us some detail on how you reached that conclusion?
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
Most commentators—including those who have given the evidence we have already heard in Committee—suggest that one consequence of the Bill will be a massive expansion of provision. From your point of view, I think you are saying that a significant proportion of people will be worse off under the scheme and that a significant number of people would no longer be able to take advantage of tax-supported child care and may therefore find themselves not being able to work as a result. Your view is that there will not be the massive demand that the providers expect.
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
So it is people who are less well off.
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
Mr Cunningham, please be brief. We need to finish.
Alex Cunningham (Labour, Stockton North)
Sure. You have told us at great length how complex this is, how the better-off benefit most and how there will be fewer beneficiaries in the long run. Can you tell us what needs to change in the Bill to correct what you see as the faults?
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
Order. I am afraid that that brings us to the end of this session, but if you would like to write to the Committee to clarify any other points you wish to make as a result of the question from Mr Cunningham, I am sure that it would like to hear from you. Thank you very much.
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
On behalf of the Committee, I thank the witness for his evidence. Will the next witnesses move through, please?
Examination of Witnesses
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
If we can go from left to right, please, will the witnesses introduce themselves for the record?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Are you all okay for us to call you by your first names?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Thank you very much for coming. By way of introduction, would each of you say a little bit about your overall views of the scheme, highlighting any concerns you may have? I will then ask some other questions. Shall we start with you, Anne?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Thank you. I will pick up a couple of points. Katie, perhaps we can all expand on the point you were just talking about. We all know that child care costs are rising exponentially, and that the supply of places is at best flat, if not in decline. There is a supply and demand issue as it is, and this scheme will pump money and more demand into the system. What is your assessment of the impact it will have on the child care market and prices?
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
Could I just ask you to keep the answers a little shorter, because quite a lot of Members would like to probe and there are three of you, so there may be trouble getting all the points in?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Maybe this one is more for you, Sarah. Can you perhaps expand a bit on what you said about the interaction of this system with the current tax credits, soon to be universal credit, and any feedback you have had from working families about how they might manage those parallel systems and moving between them?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Sarah, building on that point and from the conversation we were having this morning about how to get information most readily to parents so that they can make those informed decisions, you mentioned an online service there. Could we broaden out that conversation to the other two panellists here so that they give us their thoughts on that? Getting good information to parents is really important.
In the interests of time, may I pose my other question as well? It is about disabled children, who I think Katie was talking about. I know that short break funding is often used to support after-school clubs, but what other information could the witnesses give to help us understand how important short break and respite care funding is for working parents? It can so often make the difference between staying in work and not being in work.
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
I am going to call Catherine McKinnell. After that, could we ask one question each? We can always have another bite at the cherry if we have time left at the end.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
You have all mentioned the importance of having employer engagement in the provision of child care support. Do you feel that will be lost under the new scheme? What would you recommend or advise the Government to do, to try to mitigate that?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
That takes us back to the universal credit issues that you were raising and some of those complexities. You mentioned, Sarah, that the new system is likely to make things much more complicated. I want to understand what it is about the new system that adds to the complexity—
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
We will need a very brief answer, because so many Members wish to ask questions.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Is it the fact that it is now on a per-child basis? Obviously, that is a fluctuating requirement for parents, but now we also have a much more flexible work force—zero hours contracts are a reality for large working families as well.
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
One point that several of you made was about the need for annual uprating. I have a “stupid boy” question. I am well aware that thresholds and caps often get out of date if they are not uprated, but we are told that this £10,000 cap is way beyond the average spend at the moment. First, if we had an annual uprating, would you expect any movement in the foreseeable future? Secondly, ought the contribution percentage—the 25%—to be subject to annual assessment also?
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
In Somerset, we cannot find a nursery at all, so we are ignorant about these things.
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
I might have misunderstood this, but you seemed to suggest that higher-income families would benefit more from this than lower-income families. Is that right? If so, is there anything we can do to address that?
Mary Macleod (Conservative, Brentford and Isleworth)
Anne, you put it really well when you said that this is about more parents being able to flourish at work and at home, and that is the whole aim of the Bill. As we all know, child care is a major issue for parents and a large cost. I heard the wish list of additional things at the beginning. If we get the communication right, which is extremely important, do you think that this will reach out to and help more families and children across the spectrum? We are trying to get to many more families, to help them flourish at home and at work.
Andrew Jones (Conservative, Harrogate and Knaresborough)
I agree entirely that families, parents and societies are stronger if people are working. The universal credit is having a trial roll-out in my constituency; it has gone extremely well and has been well received by users, the jobcentre and employers. I am very keen to know why you think people might fall through the cracks—that was the phrase you used in your introductory remarks—and why you think the interface between this and the tax-free child care system will be very complicated, particularly as the system has not yet been designed.
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
There is a lot of mood music, particularly from working families, that suggests that employers being aware of and involved in the child care requirements of staff is to be welcomed and promoted, but many of my constituents say to me that they feel that, frankly, with tax credits and child care arrangements, their employers know too much about their lives. What do you have to say to them?
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
Do you accept that parents should have a right to privacy, and not have a level of intrusion by their employers into their personal lives that many parents do not want?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
One of the issues that arose in evidence this morning was not just the quantity—the supply-side—of child care, but the quality. Obviously, with additional welcome money being put into the child care support system, the nannies association, in particular, would like an increase in the quality of child care as a reflection of that. Do you have any thoughts on that? Do you have similar feedback, for example, to Mumsnet or other organisations?
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
In answering that, please focus on the remit of the Bill.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Sorry, but I just want to clarify how this relates to the Bill. Obviously, to access child care, the Bill requires you to register with Ofsted.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
We have also been looking at the delivery. I would be interested to hear your thoughts about parents’ experience of the simplicity of the processes involved. We have looked at the complexities of universal credit, but under the current proposal, NS&I would be a sole provider of this new provision. There are concerns that this is a very large undertaking for one organisation to process, and many, many families could potentially be looking to register in a very short period of time as the provision opens up to a wider number of parents than are currently accessing the vouchers. What are your thoughts on that? Should there be contingency plans, given that there is a legal wrangle about who should provide this, which could possibly delay the 2015 implementation date?
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
Are there any further questions from the Committee? In that case, I thank the panel on behalf of the Committee. We will now move on to the next group.
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
We will now hear evidence from Citizens Advice, the Low Incomes Tax Reform Group of the Chartered Institute of Taxation, and the Family and Childcare Trust. We are starting a little early and we will finish at 4 o’clock. Will the witnesses, from left to right, introduce themselves for the record?
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
Thank you. I will have to ask that you project your voices, because the room does not have good acoustics and I gather that the speakers are not working terribly well.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Thank you for coming to give evidence. Do you mind if we refer to you by your first names? No? Thank you. Will you start by summarising briefly what your views are on the Bill that we are discussing?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Thank you. I have a follow-up question for each of you. Sue, the Government’s approach to dealing with some of the added complexity that you outlined—it sounds quite worrying—is to provide a better off calculator for parents, presumably in an online format. Do you think that that is adequate and, if not, what else do you want to see the Government provide?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Victoria, I appreciate that you are very much highlighting some of the concerns and complexities that you think will arise. Does the Low Incomes Tax Reform Group have some proposals on how some of that can be addressed? Are there suggestions for the Government? I appreciate that that might be a difficult question to answer, and I appreciate that you might not have the proposals at the moment.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Thank you, that is very helpful.
Just one more question for Ellen. You mentioned in your opening comments some of the challenges for parents of disabled children. Would you mind setting out what you think are the main issues in the Bill, where you feel that some of those additional challenges are not being addressed?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Ellen has covered a great deal of what I was going to ask with regard to disabled children. It was very interesting to hear your comments.
Just one question on that. In terms of the supply side, have you any evidence that would suggest that the sort of changes you have talked about would stimulate increased provision, or do you feel that you would need a pilot to be able to establish that?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
My other question is about the information available for parents. It was interesting to hear your thoughts, and we had a great deal of evidence this morning about how best to ensure that parents are making the right choice. Is there anything further that you would like to add on that? Obviously, you were concerned about whether an online calculator would be sensitive enough. What would be sensitive enough? What would your recommendation be?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
I have a couple of questions for different people. Ellen, you said that you thought that the scheme would lead to price inflation in the sector. Could you expand on that and perhaps use this as an opportunity to talk to us about how that could be changed? Could some additional clauses be put into the Bill to stop that happening?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Sue and Victoria, you have both spoken very well about some of the anomalies in cash flow and about people who have lumpy incomes, if you like. Sue, could you explain that a bit more? What are the anomalies with payments in advance or in arrears, and what might those mean to a family who are moving between the systems and are on relatively low pay or have a moderate income? Victoria, could you say a bit about how you think we could tackle some of the issues with self-employment and lumpy incomes?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
In effect, in the tax-free system—I know you will want me to keep to the remit of the Bill, Mrs Main—there is payment in advance under the scheme we are talking about. What you are proposing is making that available to more people.
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Victoria, could you talk about the issue of lumpy payments and self-employed parent rights?
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
Ellen, you raised the concern that if you put more money into child care it will simply cause costs to go up, because there is a limitation on supply. Do you agree that costs would not go up if there was a greater opportunity to expand the supply of child care and make more child care available?
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
I represent Dover in east Kent, where there is a lot of deprivation—a lot of parents do not have a lot of money and find child care very expensive. A few years ago there was a war on childminders and many of them left; they were concerned that costs had risen. Does that accord with your experience of the world, and was it a shame that that happened?
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
I think that that was slightly out of the remit of the Bill.
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
I am going back on to topic. In your evidence, Sue, you say that you are concerned about the interaction between support for child care costs and universal credit. What particular aspects of interaction concern you most?
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
In the context of the Bill, do you think that your concerns about universal credit will be relevant from the point of view of putting money aside and having the tax addition?
Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)
Can I go back to one of the points you made, Victoria, about people whose income might vary over the year? You gave the example of a farmer, who might have a lot of money coming in at one part of the year, but expenses going out at another. Some of the other witnesses have said to us that the three-month registration or enrolment only adds to the work that parents would have to undertake anyway. Do you see any merit in having longer periods—either a six-monthly or yearly registration? Are you content that we should stick with the three-month period but allow variations for individuals?
Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)
Or else better definitions.
Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)
On your point about the cost, Ellen, one suggestion has been that rather than saying, “Look, you have £10,000”—or whatever the maximum happens to be—“you go out and spend it and you get your top-up from the Government,” it could be linked to the number of hours, so that it stops the inflation of costs because it is linked to the amount of hours you can purchase. Is there any merit in that? What difficulties would you see in applying that across the country?
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
If you would like to write in, I am sure the Committee would find that helpful.
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
Sue, I want to pick up on a few other aspects of your evidence. You say there are a number of anomalies in the legislation as to who can or cannot receive support through the tax-free child care scheme. Can you detail the anomalies that concern you?
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
Do you accept that for someone who is above the benefits threshold and cannot access any form of credits and welfare, this will be a benefit? It would effectively be more for the middle.
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
Do you have any idea how many people would be affected by your particular concern?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
On a slightly broader issue of the spread of the new money that is coming in, I think the Government have estimated that the additional money going in to helping families with child care costs through this scheme would be about £750 million a year after a couple of years. What is your view about who the main beneficiaries of that £750 million a year would be, versus perhaps who some of the lesser beneficiaries, or even the losers, might be? Who do you think they will be? Victoria, you might start us off.
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
They are largely the self-employed.
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Finally, we have been talking a lot about the interaction between universal credit, or tax credits, and this scheme, but one aspect of that that we have not really discussed is the cliff edge there as well. Do you see that as being a barrier to work? Potentially, somebody who is getting 75% or 85% of their child care costs supported could suddenly go to getting 20%, if they just have a small increase in their salary. Do you see that cliff edge being an issue, in terms of people not wanting to take extra hours or not wanting to take a pay rise?
Andrew Jones (Conservative, Harrogate and Knaresborough)
You were making some comments about child care being paid in retrospect as I walked in—sorry, I had to leave the room for a few minutes. Universal credit is being rolled out in my constituency, and that roll-out is going very well. I understand that on universal credit, child care can start a month before you start work and it can continue for two months after, if you are in and out of work, to ensure continuity. How does it work in terms of those comments about retrospect?
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
Okay. If there are no further questions from Members, I thank witnesses on behalf of the Committee for giving their evidence. We will now move on to the next panel.
Examination of Witnesses - Sam Royston and Alison Garnham gave evidence.
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
We will now hear evidence from our final panel of witnesses this afternoon, from the Children’s Society and the Child Poverty Action Group. Because we have been running a little early, we have plenty of time, but obviously we can finish when the Committee feels that it has exhausted its questions. I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves for the record.
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
I do not know whether you were in the room before we began, but the acoustics in here are pretty poor, so we ask you to speak up if you can. Some of us, myself included, are struggling to hear some of the witnesses.
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Are you okay with us calling you Sam and Alison?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Sam, I have asked you this before, but so that everybody else knows, Sam is Sue’s son—not that it matters—so he is as across the issues as his mum. First of all, by way of introduction, can you say a little about your own views of the scheme—its upsides and any concerns that you might have from your respective organisations? We will start with you, Sam.
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Excellent. Those are some of the issues that we discussed earlier as well. Alison, perhaps I could just ask you to expand a bit on the final point you were making there about the income level and where you see that having most impact on people’s decisions to go back to work; about how under the current system up to £160,000 per individual could be as much as £300,000 per household; and about decisions to go back to work and where you think some of those lines would be better drawn.
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Do you have any statistics on how many families that might affect? At the moment, they might get vouchers or some help if they have one earner, but if the other partner is in training, in education or on a course, they do not. Do you know how many families we are talking about, roughly?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
I have asked a few people; no one knows. That is fine.
Sam, on this issue of fairness and the kind of spread that you said is one of your main concerns, have you anything more that you want to add, in terms of that cut-off of income and where that sits in relation to the impact on the labour market?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Thank you for your thoughts so far.
Alison, you were talking about the challenges that parents with disabled children face in getting into work and staying in employment, and that is really regardless of their income levels. We heard a little earlier this afternoon about the differential in costs between providing child care for a disabled child and for a non-disabled child: some £11 to £20 an hour versus considerably less for non-disabled children.
Is there a chance here to explore a little more the opportunity to support parents with disabled children into employment through this Bill, and also to stimulate the market? When I speak to parents with disabled children I hear that they find it difficult to get the right child care, and that that is often why they fall out of employment. Could you reflect on that and give us some ideas about how we can use this opportunity?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Have you done any work on assessing the availability of specialist child care support for disabled children in the nursery sector?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
An issue that has been considered today is that the parents we are talking about—who you particularly are here to represent—have challenges with paying for child care. That is influenced by the supply side in the market and the rising costs that we have seen. I have two points. First, what impact do you see the Bill having on the supply side of child care? Secondly, will there be sufficient supply to meet the demand when additional parents are looking for child care as a result of the Bill, as is anticipated? Will they be able to find it?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
What do we do about increasing the supply side? Will the Bill do enough, or should the Government be doing more to support supply side?
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
I think we are wandering off somewhat. Is there anything else that you wish to add that is in line with the Bill?
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Sorry, that threw me a little. There is an issue in terms of the Bill and whether it is able to address some of the challenges.
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
Sam, I wanted to get it clear in terms of what you were saying about how a different political choice should have been made about the Bill and that there should have been more provision for the least well-off. Will you confirm that, under universal credit, in 2016 people will get 85% of costs to a maximum of £7,752 for one child and £13,296 for two children?
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
I represent a deprived constituency and many of my constituents, many of whom work hard and are just above the benefits threshold, do not get any help. They say, “I pay my taxes, but I get nothing back and no support for this. It is really unfair.” Do you accept that for them more for the middle is important and makes a difference to their lives?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
I am going down the same line of questioning, for the purposes of everyone in Committee fully understanding this. The figures that the hon. Member for Dover highlighted in terms of the full value of the child care component of universal credit is for those on the very lowest incomes, but as incomes go up to, say, £35,000 or £40,000 a year, the figure tapers off significantly, so the full value that we were discussing there would not be available to a family with a household income of £35,000 a year, for instance. Moreover, as Mr Elphicke mentioned, for those just above the threshold, they might have child care costs that are only around £5,000 a year maximum per child and therefore would actually qualify for, say, only £1,000 a year. So I think what you are describing is a more progressive system where that taper is perhaps a bit shallower, but it extends beyond those who currently qualify, or you bring the taper of tax-free higher up so that that overlap then—do you want to expand on that for me?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
Or alternatively, as we heard earlier today, possibly make the tax-free scheme, the child care accounts, open to families in receipt of universal credit or tax credits, so you level off the crossover of those two schemes, possibly funded by thinking about lowering the amount. Is that what you were talking about?
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
To deal with the tapering issue as you come off it, do you think it should carry on until, say, £40,000, £50,000 or £60,000, as it did under tax credits and that that would be a better system? Is that your case?
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
To be clear, your preference would be to reduce the threshold where universal credit ends—bring that down—but then have a longer taper for child care support.
Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)
Lastly, do you think it is welcome that universal credit is entirely separate from child benefit, that child benefit will continue to be paid separately and that child maintenance payments will not affect universal credit?
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
I think we are moving somewhat off the subject of help during the transition period.
Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)
Your explanation of universal credit has been helpful. On the interaction between the new child care proposals and universal credit, and on the implementation of the scheme in practical terms, some concerns have been expressed about the time frames that are currently in play. This was obviously promised to be rolled out by 2015, and there are question marks over that timetable. There have also been a lot of question marks over the universal credit timetable. Will you say something about the impact on the families that you are talking about? When will they receive this child care support? What will be the impact of any delays in delivery?
Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)
That is a good point.
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
You have mentioned disadvantaged areas several times. I tend to think more in terms of disadvantaged people, who are sometimes not in disadvantaged areas, as you will appreciate. Do you want to say anything about non-cost barriers to accessing child care? Do you have any thoughts about how we could improve access to child care in areas where that is not easy? Secondly, the working elements of a family may have atypical working days. How can we make it easier for them to access child care?
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
You are back to disadvantaged areas, but I am asking you to concentrate on people.
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
I will not continue on this, but I invite you at least to consider that a poor family in a deeply rural area is a lot poorer than one in an area where there is a lot of access to provision.
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
I was interested in your point that, once we have lost child care, we have lost it. If it is not used, it is gone. What has your experience been in Wales? Under the current provision, employer-supported child care support for over-eights cannot be used in anything other than the local authority provision. It also cannot be used in the private, voluntary or independent sector. Have you seen any problems with child care providers in that part of the United Kingdom as a result of that stipulation? Have you had any dealings with the Welsh Government about how they will handle this new tax-free child care?
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
Is there a link to the Bill about the devolved functions?
Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)
Sorry, Mrs Main. This is directly to do with the Bill and what will happen in the devolved areas. I wondered whether you have had any dealings with the Welsh Government about how they will amend the way things work in Wales to ensure that this tax-free child care is available to families there in the same way that it is available to families in England.
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
If there are no further questions from Members, may I thank the witnesses for their evidence? We have now come to the end of today’s proceedings. We will meet on Thursday at 11.30 am to hear further evidence.
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
On a point of order, Mrs Main. Can I just check that we are still meeting at 11.30 am on Thursday, given that the first witness has been deleted?
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
Yes, according to the front of the amendment paper, we are meeting at 11.30 am and at 2 pm.
David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)
Further to that point of order, Mrs Main. We agreed to an amendment to delete one of the witnesses at that session. Does that change the time?
Anne Main (Conservative, St Albans)
I am informed that they were part of a larger panel and that the panel will still go ahead.