Consumer Rights Bill

Public Bill Committee, 11 February 2014.

Sandra Osborne (Labour, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)

Before we begin, I have a few preliminary announcements. Will all Members please ensure that all electronic devices are turned off or are switched to silent mode during Committee sittings? As a general rule, I and my fellow Chair do not intend to call starred amendments which have not been tabled with adequate notice. The required notice period in Public Bill Committees is three working days. Amendments should therefore be tabled by the rise of the House on Monday for consideration on Thursday and by the rise of the House on Thursday for consideration on the following Tuesday.

As not everyone is familiar with the process of taking oral evidence in Pubic Bill Committees, it might be helpful if I briefly explain how we will proceed. The Committee will first be asked to consider the programme motion on the amendment paper, for which debate is limited to half an hour. We will then proceed to a motion to report written evidence, and then to a motion to permit the Committee to deliberate in private in advance of the oral evidence sessions, which I hope we can take formally. Assuming that the second of those motions is agreed, the Committee will then move into private session. Once the Committee has deliberated, the witnesses and members of the public will be invited into the room and our oral evidence session will begin.

Examination of Witnesses

Sandra Osborne (Labour, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)

Good morning, gentlemen. Welcome. Chris Warner is lead lawyer for policy, advocacy and enforcement with Which?, and Adrian Harvey is head of policy for consumer and public services at Citizens Advice.

Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and that we must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee agreed this morning. We are scheduled to finish the first group of questions at 9.45. I hope I will not have to interrupt anyone mid-sentence, but the programme motion must be adhered to and if necessary I will do so.

Will the witnesses introduce themselves for the record?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

It would be really helpful if you first set out the consumer issues that people raise with your organisations and their different complaints and concerns.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Of the complaints and concerns you are seeing, which involve things that consumers do not know but should know, and which involve practices or activities that you would argue need addressing? So, two different things: one is about information, and the other is about the nature of the markets you are seeing people operate in.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Sure, although that slightly contrasts with what Adrian was saying about people then coming to you at the end of that process. You both talked about redress and the capacity of consumers, even when they know their rights, to argue for them, and having a system for intervening when, for example, a trader does not know their rights. How you deal with that? Do you think that the lack of detail in the Bill on redress systems, especially given the EU directive coming down the line, is a challenge that could undermine some of the good work in the Bill on clarifying some of those terms? Even if someone knows their rights, if you do not have an intermediary who can say, “No, they are right”, we will be no further forward with some of the problems we are seeing.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

So you would like the Bill to address the issues around the EU directive?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

We have talked about the complaints you are seeing in general terms. Do you see any of this applying to the public sector as well? People’s experience of complaining is not confined to their private dealings. Could you tell us a little about your experience of people dealing with the public sector?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Do you think those are issues that the Bill should also address?

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

First of all, gentlemen, welcome to the House of Commons and thank you for coming to give evidence to us. May I ask what percentage of cases you think end up becoming so nasty that they end up going to court? What are the successes in all of that?

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

Yes, I think it is fair to say that going to court is the nuclear option in all this, and something that I would always encourage anybody—including myself—to end up avoiding under any conditions at all. So what is the next level down that people can use to try to make sure they have their concerns and feelings about the sale of goods properly dealt with?

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

Don’t worry. On a number of occasions, they come and see my office, certainly in my constituency anyway.

Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)

Good morning, gentlemen. “Your statutory rights are unaffected” —we see that on goods for sale. What is your view about that bald statement? Is it understood, is it helpful or is it a fetter to people trying to exercise their rights?

Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)

On the issue of guarantees, have you a view about the obligation being on the consumer to activate a guarantee on the purchase of goods, and whether that should be automatic? I am thinking specifically about white goods. In that case, there is a requirement on the purchaser to do something to make the guarantee for parts and labour effective. Have you a view about that?

Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)

I am wondering, following on from the previous questions, whether there is a gap between consumers’ expectations of their statutory rights and what they discover their rights actually are when they contact your organisations.

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

Good morning, Chris and Adrian. I want to ask a little bit more about the 30-day period for a refund. Are there any conditions on that, such as providing proof of purchase or products’ original packaging?

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

Is a receipt the only acceptable proof of purchase? What about the financial transaction? Would a bank statement be proof of purchase?

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

“Should be” worries me slightly, because that kind of terminology is often what a supplier of goods will use to not give you your rights. What about packaging? Will that be a condition?

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

Good. Do you think that that information should be available to consumers at the point of sale—that they have to retain the receipt, and that the packaging is not necessary? I have been refused a refund on both those grounds.

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

What about repairs to goods? The 30-day period does not cover that; there could be lengthy periods without a washing machine or fridge-freezer. Should the Bill have addressed the question of what is a reasonable time in which to carry out a repair?

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

So you would like to see the Bill amended to that effect.

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

Thank you.

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

Especially for white goods; absolutely. Thank you.

Laura Sandys (Conservative, South Thanet)

I am particularly interested in redress. We will have the Federation of Small Businesses in later, and it will no doubt say that for smaller businesses, the whole process can be very difficult and quite expensive. On the reverse side, when you start to look at what Trading Standards is able to do in relation to very large businesses, sometimes one feels that it is a bit like putting your hand in the petty cash; it is almost a cost of doing business. Do you feel that there is any possibility of looking at other elements of redress, for example having to put your Trading Standards fines on the front page of your website and ensuring that your so-called prosecution was communicated widely, so that customers understood what had happened? Otherwise, this is all below the radar screen. To be frank, these issues rarely get publicity. I think strawberries got a bit of publicity recently but, beyond that, I do not see that consumers know what is happening in the wider sense.

Sheila Gilmore (Labour, Edinburgh East)

Taking forward that issue of collective redress, in what way would the enhanced consumer measures in clause 79 and schedule 7 be used?

Sheila Gilmore (Labour, Edinburgh East)

How do you see them being used?

Sheila Gilmore (Labour, Edinburgh East)

Do you think that the requirement to look at the proportionality of measures, which is specifically outlined, creates any barriers to using them?

Sheila Gilmore (Labour, Edinburgh East)

Is there anything additional that you think there should be to make it more workable and effective?

Rehman Chishti (Conservative, Gillingham and Rainham)

On the point about redress and cases going to court, I think you said that not many cases go to court, and that could be for a number of reasons, for example concern about the court process or costs.

Changes have been brought about regarding small claims courts. At the moment, what is being pushed is that there should be mediation to start off with between all parties before the claim goes any further. Do you think that that being at the forefront when a claim is first made at the county court or small claims court level will ensure that more people go, because they will recognise it as an informal process rather than going straight into a formal hearing?

Rehman Chishti (Conservative, Gillingham and Rainham)

Is it also a case of ensuring that people who should be going to court go to court, because sometimes they may not go? It will make them aware that the process—a small claims court—is pretty informal compared with other court hearings, so even if they represent themselves, which many do, they have every chance of success.

Rehman Chishti (Conservative, Gillingham and Rainham)

You say that we should make it easier for people to go to court. Sometimes you have lost a small amount, but you will be paying more in the process by going. On that basis, do you think that we should get rid of the court fee, which may be £50 for small claims cases, so that people are not disincentivised from lodging cases in court?

Rehman Chishti (Conservative, Gillingham and Rainham)

Finally, the issue of costs could quite easily come at the end of the hearing, when the costs are awarded against the other party. There would therefore be no up-front cost, which would mean that somebody could go to court in the knowledge that the losing party would be penalised.

Sandra Osborne (Labour, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)

I will just mention that we have 10 minutes left, and four people wish to ask questions.

Stephen Doughty (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I have two very quick questions. First, do you think that the grey list of unfair contract terms is clear enough to be enforced? Secondly, do you think that citizens advice bureaux are adequately resourced to implement the Bill effectively? I have seen some challenges in my own city of Cardiff, where the citizens advice bureau has a long history around that. Do you think you are adequately resourced to implement it?

Brooks Newmark (Conservative, Braintree)

I will ask only one question, because I appreciate that time is short. It relates to the question that Fiona O'Donnell raised. Often, when consumers receive contracts and terms of reference when purchasing a good or service—this sounds silly—the writing itself is almost microscopic, and many people cannot read it at all. Secondly, unless you are a trained lawyer or you have a law degree, you cannot understand the language, with the end result that most consumers get bamboozled, or they simply cannot read it. But because they want to purchase that good or service, they simply sign something and end up in trouble. Do you think that the Bill addresses that particular issue?

Sandra Osborne (Labour, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)

I am afraid that this is likely to be the last question to this set of witnesses.

Mary Glindon (Labour, North Tyneside)

Does the Bill adequately cover copycat websites that mimic Government and official websites and that charge people a premium for the service?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Going back to the question that was asked earlier on the list of unfair contract terms in part 1 of schedule 2, does the Bill sufficiently anticipate the possible contentions and issues that might arise around how the different deals under which cars are procured—

Sandra Osborne (Labour, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)

Order. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, but we have come to the end of the time for this particular set of witnesses. I thank them on behalf of the Committee.

Sandra Osborne (Labour, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)

Good morning, gentlemen. This set of questions will last until 10.15 am. Could the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Good morning. Again, I think it would be really helpful if you could set out whether you think this Bill goes far enough in clarifying consumer law, and what you think are the tangible benefits and limitations of the law as it currently stands.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Thank you. It is very helpful that you set out that there has always been difficulty in trying to clarify and simplify consumer law, partly because of the myriad different laws that fit together. With that in mind, do you think problems could be caused by the fact that the Bill will not deal with the European directive on ADR, which has to be in place by next year at the same time? Do you think that, having tried to simplify the law, without doing the two at the same time we could end up creating a further problem and going backwards rather than forwards?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Was it unusual for you not to have been asked? You said that you had been looking at how various bits of European legislation had already been enacted in the UK, and obviously that is a fairly major piece of European legislation when it comes to consumer rights. Is it not rather bizarre for you not to have been asked to consider that?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Do you think that it would have been helpful, though?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Finally on that point, you talk about having looked at unreasonable remedies. Is it unusual to have a question of reasonable costs decided in court as a question of fact, as proposed in clause 51?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

So, aside from the elements that you particularly reviewed, do you have any general points to make to us about consumer legislation? Obviously that limits what you can offer on the detail of the clauses that we will be looking at, but do you have any general observations about consumer legislation in the light of that, from what you know of the rest of the Bill?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Just to extend the issues raised around point of sale and statutory rights, often at the point of sale an additional sale is offered to consumers in terms of extended warranties. In some cases, it is sold as “peace of mind for your product,” and in other cases it is perhaps more accurately described as “optional insurance”. Does the Bill in any way help to clarify some of those issues? A term such as “warranty” means very different things and is used to mean very different things by very different sellers.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Some people read “warranty” as meaning “guarantee” in the style that people think of—so a seven-year warranty advertised for a car somehow guarantees it against rust or whatever. When it comes to unfair terms in and around contracts, do you think that would sufficiently cover the question of any additional warranties above and beyond the purchase price for the product or the good?

Kwasi Kwarteng (Conservative, Spelthorne)

You spoke about simpler language in terms of the mood you want to see. We all want simpler language, but is there a system or method by which you are trying to reduce complexity to allow the consumer to understand this?

Kwasi Kwarteng (Conservative, Spelthorne)

The danger in this practice is that things get more complicated, because you are simply batting it around for longer. What is your sensitivity or approach to that sort of problem?

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

Good morning, David and Hector. I think we all agree that your call for simplicity and clarity in consumer rights is needed. I would like to probe you further on a couple of aspects of clarity. The first, which Hector touched on, is goods and services. What is your view on the wording regarding what is meant by a good being “satisfactory” or “fit for purpose”? Do you think we have clarity on that in the Bill? For services, do we need to apply an outcome-based judgment on what is satisfactory or fit for purpose, as we do for goods, rather than let the trader decide what is satisfactory?

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

Especially in light of Mark’s comments about goods and services now often being sold at the same time.

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

In terms of collective redress, the Bill has a grey list of unfair contract terms. Do you think those are clear enough for them actually to be enforced?

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

Maybe I am being particularly stupid—which probably has happened before—but surely this is an issue in which the devolved Assemblies have a keen interest. I sit on the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs and I am for ever being told that we cannot discuss various bits of legislation and matters because it is a devolved matter. Surely this is exactly the case where frankly, the Scottish Assembly—

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

Parliament.

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

The Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly, sorry—forgive me, I am English. It should end up being considered by them, so I am slightly confused—can you help?

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

Not unless you end up doing something on this side of the border, such as buying a builder’s services or vice versa.

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

I presume the same answer applies to Wales?

Sheila Gilmore (Labour, Edinburgh East)

There is a suggestion in your submissions about the use of certain words, particularly “consideration”. Would you like to see that amended?

Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)

I want to ask about satisfactory quality—I think that is a term. We have had a discussion about merchantable quality and reasonably fit for purpose and so on. All of those describe something that is less than perfect. Is it really acceptable for somebody to purchase any good that is short of that which is described and advertised?

Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)

I understand the Law Commission’s interest is in contract terms and remedies for faulty goods, but you state that you have little interest in digital content or services. With many people purchasing over the internet nowadays, especially in Northern Ireland and places like that, is there not an opportunity for the Bill to bring together some of the laws, so that a consumer would have the same rights whether they purchased a product in a shop or online?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

One of the things we know is that most people experience consumer problems at a local level—it is in their local communities. I am sure all of us have seen cases in our local areas of the same trader causing problems for a number of people—not a huge number, but more than one or two. You might have a rogue builder who is doing loft conversions of dubious quality, or a second-hand car dealership that has numerous complaints.

Given the cost of going to court to get redress—especially if people have spent several thousand pounds on a loft conversion that is not effective—could we do more to help people at a local level to take action together privately? Have you seen any schemes or examples that you think might have merit for this context?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Do you think there would be merit in exploring what we could do to help more people at a very local level—a sort of micro-level—to club together privately to take on the builder who has caused problems for a number of people, perhaps not in the same tenant block but in the same area, or the car dealer who is persistently causing problems?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

I have the same question on all of these things. Given that this is our opportunity, once in 20 years, for consumer legislation, do you think we should try to make provision in the Bill to deal with this, since the biggest problem people see is local-level implementation? There might be merit in exploring what more we can do in the Bill to help that process happen at a local level.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Of course, you would not necessarily know if other people had been affected by a particular builder or car dealer.

Sandra Osborne (Labour, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)

Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the allotted time for giving evidence to the Committee. Thank you very much on behalf of the Committee.

Sandra Osborne (Labour, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)

We shall now hear from the Confederation of British Industry, the British Retail Consortium and the Federation of Small Businesses. Good morning to our witnesses. Could I ask you to introduce yourselves for the record, please?

Sandra Osborne (Labour, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)

Thank you. This session must finish by 11 am. I first call Stella Creasy.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Thank you, Mrs Osborne. Welcome, gentlemen. May we start by asking you to comment on the Bill, particularly how it would affect your members? I am particularly interested in Mr Cherry’s views on this, but also I am sure, Mr Downhill, that you have many small businesses and micro-businesses as part of your groups. The Bill explicitly does not cover businesses as consumers, so could you say a little about this? We know it is a complex issue, but what are your views on this and do you think it is something we should be looking at in this Bill? I would invite the CBI to comment as well, but I appreciate that these guys may have a stronger interest in this than you.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Thank you for that introduction. Would you perhaps then go into why we should treat micro-businesses and small businesses as consumers, rather than looking at them as a business-to-business purchase?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Mr Downhill, do you have a particular view on this?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Is that not an argument for selling a kettle with a requirement on it limiting the number of cups of tea you can make per day?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

I think that that is very helpful. Mr Fell, do you have a particular comment on small businesses?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Are you making a further distinction and saying that not all small businesses are the same? You are talking about micro-businesses—those that employ fewer than 10 people—and there perhaps being a stronger case here in relation to the protections, as Mr Cherry says. You are asking them to know a lot about consumer law and business-to-business trading. In contrast, a slightly larger small business would have people who could manage some of those relationships.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Obviously, one of the things that we have been discussing this morning is the systems of redress that exist. We have heard from the consumer side how important it is for consumers to have access to ombudsmen and some of the concerns that the EU directive on redress will not be addressed in this legislation. It would be helpful to hear about this from your perspective, because obviously it is one thing to have rights, whether you are a business or a consumer; it is another thing to have a process of intermediaries who might mitigate how those rights are used. Do you have a view on whether it would have been helpful to have this system of the right to redress that is going to come in by next year clarified in this legislation, so that businesses knew what people’s rights were as well?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

I do not know whether Mr Downhill or Mr Cherry have a view, particularly on ombudsmen and the rights to redress.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

One of the challenges is that, right now, any of us could set ourselves up as an ombudsman. In fact, some trade bodies have set themselves up as ombudsmen for that purpose. In a consumer rights framework, it is confusing for consumers whether an ombudsman is a truly independent voice or a trade body masquerading as an independent voice. That is a problem for all ombudsmen. Would it be helpful for your members to have the clarity and incentive to have an independent ombudsman service to resolve some of these issues?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Mr Cherry, do you have a view?

Kwasi Kwarteng (Conservative, Spelthorne)

I think people might be rather surprised to hear that any legislation that looks to protect the consumer in some way damages or undermines your position. I know that that is a stark way of presenting this, but what specifically are your concerns about the developments in the law that the Bill proposes?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

First of all, can I go back to Matthew’s point in reply to Stella? He said that CBI would basically work on the premise that it is not good to conflate the personal or individual consumer with businesses when it comes to consumer legislation. I cannot recall that that was the case in relation to when the Financial Services Bill was going through Parliament, where we were very clear that “consumers”, as provided for in the consumer panel for the FCA, could include businesses, including businesses in the financial services supply chain, for valid reasons. Why the difference? Why were you comfortable with businesses being included in the class of consumers there but not here?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

That is okay. That is helpful. On the car industry, do you have any sense of how the provisions in the Bill about unfair terms, variations and interpretations will apply to the changing model by which a lot of car sales are conducted? A lot of people seem to be confused about whether they are buying a car, hire purchasing a car or taking out a contract for hire. It is a new market, and they are new terms; a lot of people now pay for cars on the assumption that after a certain date the car will be treated as being of a certain value. Are you conscious of any contentions or apprehensions about what may happen in the context of that market?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Okay. May I ask this question to the others? Obviously, in the context of point of sale issues, product protection insurance is sold to people under the guise of extended warranties and other things. Do smaller businesses, which do not sell those things in their own name, rely less on them than bigger businesses? What is the justification for the Bill not looking at the practice of extended warranties and the high degree of variation in their interpretation?

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

You seem to be, if I might say so, in a rather unique position. You represent traders, who also have consumer rights, and you must look after their interests so they do not find themselves in trouble. Surely one of the big problems that we must get rid of is rogue traders—dodgy builders, dodgy car salesmen or anything like that. What else do you think the Government and Parliament can do to try to make sure we do that?

Do you also think that there is a big role for the media to play? “You and Yours” is a very good consumer rights programme, and there used to be a programme called “That’s Life”, which exposed lots of people for their dodgy dealings. In my mind, there is a role for the media to expose people who contravene consumer rights. So what else do you think Parliament and Government can do?

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

Gentlemen, can I turn to the issue of the 30-day limit? I have three brief questions. Do you think it would have been helpful to have repairs, returns or refunds all covered by the 30-day limit, for clarity and simplification? What do you think is a reasonable time for a repair to be carried out by a business? What do you think is a reasonable time for a business to take to process a refund?

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

Can I just quickly say that consumer groups were not so enthusiastic? They thought that 14 days was a reasonable time, but there is room for negotiation beyond that for washing machines and fridge-freezers.

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

Does anyone want to comment on refund times?

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

How quickly do you think you should have to process a refund?

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

Yes, sometimes. The money leaves your account instantly when you pay for goods, but it can take considerably longer for the money to be returned to your account.

Laura Sandys (Conservative, South Thanet)

Would you say that the Bill ensures that there is a presumption of truth in what you sell and how you sell products? Do you believe that there is enough enforcement in terms of deep transparency? Strangely enough, on one of the websites there has just been a report about shrinkage, where a cornflakes packet used to be about three-quarters full and it is now 60% full, although the package looks identical. Of course, if you go around the supermarket armed with the details of all the previous ingredients and contents, you will see that the content size has changed. Do you believe that we are getting to the place where transparency is really there for the consumer and there is a presumption of selling something fairly?

Laura Sandys (Conservative, South Thanet)

The Grocer has said that shrinkage has become a policy among retailers, to pass inflation on to consumers without there being any transparency about the size of the product or any change in the packaging.

Laura Sandys (Conservative, South Thanet)

What you are saying is that nobody is behaving illegally in my proposition. My proposition about shrinkage is that the presentation of the product appears to be the same. The reality is that on the side, it will say that a different number of grams has been put into the box, but the box looks the same. The presumption of truth means that as a consumer with time limitations, who does not go around with previous weights and measures, I would presume that that product was the same as it was two months ago. The point is that it is not. It is not illegal at all, but the point is: are we creating a transparent transaction between the consumer and the product?

Stephen Doughty (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I want to ask a couple of questions about the digital aspects in the Bill. Do you have any concerns about the definitions that are used in the digital section, particularly freedom from minor defects? Do you see that as a workable definition?

Stephen Doughty (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I can understand that concern. But if it were possible to prove that a consumer had permanently deleted something that was faulty, is there any way in which you could accept the consumer rejecting content such as if there was a way of proving that they had not copied it and moved it on?

Rebecca Harris (Conservative, Castle Point)

You talked about being the first mover in Europe on this. Do you see competitive advantages for us here rather than overall any competitive disadvantage from bringing in this legislation?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

In conversation with Fiona, you said that you did not think there was a problem with speedy refunds. Would you then have no problem with clarifying for consumers a time frame in which they should expect a refund? Your argument is that the issue is with the banks rather than with the companies in providing the refunds. We see quite a few people who wait a considerable length of time for a refund.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Obviously, if somebody pays online straight away and if they then have to wait two or three months, as is quite common, for the money to be refunded to them, that seems a disparity for consumers.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

So you would have no objection to clarifying that that is the expectation, and that it should be an expectation of consumers to have a speedy right of refund.

Sandra Osborne (Labour, Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock)

Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions of these witnesses. I thank them on behalf of the Committee.

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Welcome, witnesses, to this session. We will continue to hear oral evidence on the Bill. We will first hear witnesses from the Trading Standards Institute and the Office of Fair Trading. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, which is pretty broad, and we must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee agreed. I am sure the Committee will work well together.

We have two witnesses: Mr Foster and Mr Ashworth. Mr Foster, please introduce yourself and tell us briefly about your responsibilities, and then Mr Ashworth.

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Colleagues, it is over to you to ask questions.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Thank you, Chairman, and welcome. Welcome also to Andy and Gordon and thank you for coming. We heard a lot this morning about problems that consumers are facing, particularly at a local level. Many of the problems that people talked about were not necessarily outright illegal or criminal but might be defined as sharp practices or innovations in markets that nobody had thought of but were causing concern.

Could you tell us about how your organisations deal with such issues both at local and national level? Perhaps you could tell us about the complaints you get that are on that blurred line. They might be causing consumer detriment and therefore require consumer rights to deal with them, but they are not necessarily straight-out crimes or fraud.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Andy, from the other side, we know that most consumer problems occur at a local level, and Trading Standards is at the sharp end of that. If Gordon and the OFT’s role, and the CMA’s role, will be about the big national picture—I presume you have a threshold of the number of people affected by something that would be considered bad market practice—how does Trading Standards view consumer detriment at a local level? What sort of powers would you be looking for to tackle that, given that you are on the other side of that?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

I want to say at the outset that obviously these are fairly lengthy responses, and I am anxious as many colleagues want to ask questions. I am trying to get everyone in.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

I just wanted to follow that up, not least because I wish for the days when I could afford a Gucci handbag and could go on Brand-i. Both witnesses seem to be talking about the importance and honesty of the cuts to Trading Standards, and the need for this to be national market-led work which the OFT and the CMA will take up. There is then the risk of an enforcement gap, which makes the role of mediation and redress systems all the more important.

Should we therefore be concerned that this legislation does not deal with the EU directive on alternative dispute resolution? There will be a gap between the enforcers’ ability to deal with things at a local level which are on the cusp of being criminal—the rogue traders, the dodgy builders, the second-hand car dealers—and the need for problems to be big, national and to span a whole market for the CMA to intervene.

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

Good afternoon. I wonder if I could address a question to Andy on advanced notices and endorsement changes. Can you give us a brief idea of what proportion of cases TSI loses on technical issues, such as inadmissible evidence or procedures not having been followed?

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

If you do have access to that information, it would be very helpful if you wrote to the Committee. Andy, you also mentioned the cuts to TSI, and I wondered how confident you are that you have the resources for the requirements under part 4 in schedule 5 to the Bill. Have you any estimate of what the costs will be for TSI to deliver those notices?

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

Can you give us any examples where serving a notice would be either impossible or counter-productive? You touched on how you were not really sure about this aspect.

Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)

Do the witnesses believe that this is a good Bill that will help them and their organisations to do their job better?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Do you want to comment, Mr Ashworth?

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

Thank you very much for giving up your afternoon to come to speak to us. How can we eradicate rogue traders? As it happens, I am having my loft converted at the moment, and I am always concerned about whether the guy I have doing the work for me is going to do a decent job. That is difficult to ascertain without doing an enormous amount of research. What do you think the Government, and more importantly Parliament, can do to try to strengthen the powers to ensure that rogue traders are eradicated? Secondly, do you think the local authorities have a bigger role to play? Can they be given more powers as well?

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

You said that attempts had been made to introduce things that happen elsewhere. Why has that failed totally?

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

Bring back “That’s Life” I say.

Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)

Mr Foster, you have already talked about the trading standards service being reconfigured with regional, local and national responsibilities. Do you think there is a case for minimum standards within TSOs? Otherwise, we might get a postcode lottery creeping in, with different services being delivered in different parts of the country. Is there an argument for that?

Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)

Would the same argument about maintaining standards obtain for the ombudsman’s services as well?

Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)

There are different ombudsmen across consumer affairs. Anybody can be an ombudsman. There are no standards that apply to them. Should there be?

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

My constituents—and, indeed, the people of the potteries—would never forgive me if I did not raise the issue of misleading back stamps. On consumer awareness of existing rights, if a consumer does not immediately realise that they have been ripped off, it becomes even more of a problem. Do you think the Bill deals adequately with such problems?

Somebody goes along, picks up a mug, turns it over and it says “England” on the back, so they think it must have been made in England. Or they turn it over and it has the name of one of the Stoke-on-Trent six towns on the back, and they think it must have been made in Stoke-on-Trent, so initially they have been misled into buying something that they think was made in the potteries and is therefore of the highest quality. They then have two problems. They have bought something that is not what they thought they bought, or they have bought something that they think is food-safe, so they put their tea or coffee in it, which they happily drink, but they then find that it has not met the UK’s product safety standards. Does the Bill deal with that situation? If it does not, what areas should be tightened up in terms of consumer awareness of rights and their safety?

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

If you knew it was not the real thing.

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

But this is not actually fake; this is misleading.

Mary Glindon (Labour, North Tyneside)

Do people ever complain to you about the public sector? Do you think that the rights should apply there?

Rehman Chishti (Conservative, Gillingham and Rainham)

You have touched on rogue traders, redress and mediation, but much of the time it is about prevention in the first place. Some local authorities have a fair trader scheme, for example, to which traders can sign up and then be recommended for work. Anyone can check whether a trader is registered with a local authority. The problem with rogue traders is that if they have carried out work on your house and you then take them to court, you will often find that they do not turn up. You may get a decision in your favour, but you will not get any money, because the person cannot be found, unless you go to the High Court and get some money via bailiffs. Irrespective of the court process, local authorities should create initiatives in the first place to make residents aware of whether someone is a rogue trader or is okay to work with.

Laura Sandys (Conservative, South Thanet)

Picking up on that point, you have talked about prevention, consumers being empowered, information and education, and so on. This Bill in many ways offers a whole new set of tools for you to use when it comes to redress. What sort of tools do you have now that you did not have before? What sort of redress mechanisms would you use? How would they assist and promote greater understanding of what rights are and that there are enough penalties to ensure that companies know it is a painful exercise? The reason why I ask this is that, frequently, with Trading Standards, the companies get the penalty, but it is really petty cash for a lot of them. How do we ensure that the information gets out there? Do you see that as part of your redress mechanism?

Laura Sandys (Conservative, South Thanet)

Something brought up with me is whether you can ensure that a company, on its website, has a big banner saying, “Trading Standards has taken us to court and we have been fined x, y or z”. That then becomes a very big deterrent for companies, because the customer is more important to them than the petty cash that they can find in the bottom drawer. I do not know whether that might be one of your things. Do you use such things?

Laura Sandys (Conservative, South Thanet)

For the company’s website to have that on.

Laura Sandys (Conservative, South Thanet)

Yes.

Laura Sandys (Conservative, South Thanet)

And you have no tools in that field.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

The Bill sets out measures in respect of where consumers come forward with faults in products in respect of repair or replacement, but it does not address the situation in which the consumer is not aware of the fault, but a manufacturer or supplier might be, in terms of instances that would be the subject of product recall. Why should the Bill not do more in the area of recall when the Electrical Safety Council is telling us that only 10% to 20% of recalls at the minute are fully successful?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Do you agree with the Electrical Safety Council on the low rate of successful recalls? In some circumstances, the faults in these products can lead to health and safety risks and threats to life and to property through, for example, fire. Is the onus on manufacturers? In many circumstances, the manufacturers are not known, because people are buying the products from chains that have sourced them elsewhere. Who, for the purpose of recall obligations, is the manufacturer in those circumstances?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Mr Foster and Mr Ashworth, we have three minutes left and three colleagues who want to ask questions. I ask those three colleagues to put those questions briefly, but you have not got a lot of time to respond.

Fiona O'Donnell (Labour, East Lothian)

Andy, just focusing on what you said about equality of service across the country, how do we ensure that that happens? Do we not need some minimum standard of product delivery?

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

Last week in the House of Commons, as you might know, there was a debate on energy companies and direct debits. Likewise, some companies are seeking to charge for paper billing. How will we set that right?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Why do you think more consumers in Britain do not switch their services? Would it not be a good idea if we did things to encourage them to do so?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Can I interrupt you for a second, Mr Foster? This matter is not strictly within the scope of the Bill.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Yes, it is.

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Well, I have been advised by our learned Clerk that it is not.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Consumer prices and fair and reasonable prices for services are part of the Bill. Switching is about whether you are being offered a fair and reasonable price.

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Subsection (8) of clause 2 states:

“‘Goods’ means any tangible moveable items, but that includes water, gas and electricity if and only if they are put up for supply in a limited volume or set quantity.”

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Order. Mr Foster and Mr Ashworth, you have generated so much interest from colleagues, including a little controversy at the end on the scope of the Bill. I am grateful to our Clerk for directing me on the line of questioning. On behalf of the Committee, I thank both of you for the time that you have given us this afternoon and for the valuable evidence with which you have provided us. Thank you very much.

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

Will you write to us?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Mr Foster and Mr Ashworth, will you write to the Committee about any further points on which you feel you have not been given adequate time? The 45 minutes have whistled by.

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Thank you very much indeed. That is very helpful.

Examination of Witness

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Welcome, Mr Lewis. Could you explain who you are, who you represent and why you are here?

Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)

I am interested to know whether you think this is a good Bill and whether you think it will help consumers more than the different sets of legislation that we currently have in place.

Sheila Gilmore (Labour, Edinburgh East)

One issue that is still a big question for people is whether services are dealt with as well as goods. The legislation does not really change the definition of what is a satisfactory service. Do you think it should, and if so, how?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Martin, all the arguments you are making are for intermediaries who can help you with what your rights are—someone who could resolve that question about whether something is a good or a service, for example, on digital issues. That leads to questions about ombudsmen, and I know you feel very strongly about ombudsmen. Will you tell us a little about your concerns are about the Bill and the role of ombudsmen, and the fact that the Bill does not really cover the issue of alternative dispute resolution? What problems might remain when you are trying to enact those rights?

Laura Sandys (Conservative, South Thanet)

Do you feel that the legislation offers the opportunity to put a spotlight on companies when they are found by Trading Standards to be exploiting their market or not delivering products in the right way, and so give a lot of publicity to those companies? You talk about redress. Trading Standards has a range of different tools, and if we could have started to shine a light on these companies, with you as a very important stakeholder within this, payment protection insurance would have unravelled much quicker.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

On payment protection insurance, there is a sense that, when people buy consumer goods, there is the equivalent of product protection insurance—extended warranties and all those sorts of things that are put in front of people, particularly at the point of sale. People think that they are buying more rights. If they had the experience that you described the last time they bought a toaster, they think that buying a warranty the next time they buy a toaster leaves them better protected. Of course, that raises the issue that this is a service: someone is buying a service related to the purchase of a good. Are there areas there that we should look at? Increasingly, people seem to report being subjected to something of a racket.

Rehman Chishti (Conservative, Gillingham and Rainham)

On the question of redress and the small claims court, which you started with, we know that in April last year mediation was introduced in small claims courts, meaning that before someone’s claim can go any further they have to go through a mediation process, which helps them to resolve matters before they go into a court process. Picking up on your point, yes, even if a case is listed as a small claim, if a judge deems it to be too complex, it has to go to a higher level. We know that the small claims court, out of all the courts we have in our country, is supposed to be the most informal process, with no rules or evidence as such. For clarity, mediation helps with that. I agree that we need to look at the issue whereby, if it starts there it should stay there, rather than go elsewhere. What else would you want in a small claims court to make it more user-friendly?

Rehman Chishti (Conservative, Gillingham and Rainham)

On that very point, do you have research saying how many cases listed at the small claims court then get transferred out, which then increases the risk? Is it a large or a small percentage?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Mr Lewis, just before you answer, we have only two minutes left and Mary Glindon has been waiting to ask a question.

Mary Glindon (Labour, North Tyneside)

Do you think there is a case for giving ombudsmen the regulatory powers not just to deal with problems but to report to Government any emerging bad practice in the industry, so it can be stopped?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Did you want to answer Mr Chishti?

Rehman Chishti (Conservative, Gillingham and Rainham)

Sure, I am just trying to get the scale of the problem—[ Interruption.].

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Order. Mr Lewis, on behalf of the Committee, thank you very much indeed. I sense that the Committee enjoyed listening to your evidence and it is a shame that we had such a relatively short time.

Now we move to our final evidence session this afternoon.

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Minister, may I ask you first to introduce yourself? Would you then make a brief opening statement for the Committee to reflect on about the Bill and its purpose?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Thank you.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

We have learnt quite a lot today about the difference between having a right and the possibility to exercise that right. Would you give your initial feedback on what came up in the discussions with the witnesses?

I think three things came out of that strongly. The first is the concern that, as I said, it is one thing to have a right but another to practise that right. There is also the question of redress and why the Government have chosen not to work on the EU ADR directive in parallel with the Bill. A number of witnesses had real concerns about that and said that those need to fit together, so there is a risk that we could be making legislation that will need to be revisited once the directive is implemented next year.

Secondly, there is the enforcement gap and the question of whether there are issues at a local level. I think we were all struck by the honesty of what Trading Standards said—that the cuts to its services mean it has to focus on criminal issues, and local, emerging sharp practice may therefore be getting a free ride. What can we do on consumers’ rights to mitigate that?

Thirdly, if we are to have rights in any sector of life—the man from Trading Standards made a powerful point about this—why are we confining them? Why does the Bill not at least nod to what such rights might mean in the public sector? Will you reflect on that as a starting point?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Thanks for that; it is quite interesting. I would come back on two things. The first is your point about the EU ADR directive. You said clearly that you felt that there were things you could do that were not legislative. Quite a few of the witnesses talked about ombudsmen and the variation and the capacity of ombudsmen. That is a concern for those of us who would like to see a standard for ombudsmen—to see them have real statutory powers and guaranteed independence, so that any consumer who goes to an ombudsman knows that it is an independent organisation; it is not like the furniture ombudsman. Are you ruling out giving those powers?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Given that the Bill has several clauses that relate specifically to powers of redress, it is not clear, if we are talking about simplicity, how that will fit in for consumers. Which mediation process will they go to? Which will have the real teeth? Are we cutting off our nose to spite our face by not putting these processes together? We as a Bill Committee do not have the consultation document to see how you envisage that working.

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

There is a concern about this piece of legislation and how it will fit with that process, particularly if you are talking about primary legislation and the timetable we have been looking at, because that EU directive has to be implemented by next year. As we have all learnt the hard way in this place, legislation is not a speedy process, so there is a concern that we will need to know what that implementation will be for this piece of legislation to work.

Secondly, there is a difference—I want to tease this out—between witnesses saying that if we talk about consumer rights, they are rights that people would have in their lives and they would not specify a good enough service, as the man from Trading Standards said, and whether this is the right piece of legislation to look at how that will have an implication. Have you made an assessment of whether any of the rights for, say, goods and services in this Bill would have an implication for the public sector?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

Yes, but have you made an assessment of the reverse of that question? “A consumer” is not a protected term in terms of the public sector, so would there be implications for people who would be consumers within the public sector?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

What about the personal care payment?

Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)

But can you confirm that you have done that piece of work? For example, on the personal care payment, if you as an individual commission a business to provide a personal care service for you, would that be covered in the scope of the Bill?

Laura Sandys (Conservative, South Thanet)

I know that this Bill has been welcomed right across the whole consumer spectrum. It really is a great way of simplifying and clarifying what our rights are. Another form of simplification that has been proposed—I do not know whether it has ever been under consideration—is to have just one ombudsman, so just one address when you have a problem, rather than having this distinction between different products. There are issues around these not-quite phoney ombudsmen—certainly not the ombudsman that I, and I am sure you, would like to see. Have you ever considered that?

Stephen Doughty (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

To follow on from that, there is a balance to be struck between voluntarism and statute. Given some of the weaknesses that there have been with voluntarism around payday lending, logbook loans and so on, do you think that the Government should step in more practically in those cases? If so, do you think the Bill will make the structures for dealing with those things strong enough?

Stephen Doughty (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

But do you accept that there has been a problem with voluntarism in the area of consumer protection in the past?

Stephen Doughty (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Do you recognise the scenario that Martin Lewis was describing—the toaster challenge and the issue of how off-putting small claims courts can be for constituents seeking redress? One of the unique things about the Bill is that we have all got an insight into it because we have dealt with these cases. In your casework, do you often refer constituents to the small claims court? Do you sympathise with that view?

Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)

I have two very specific questions. The first is about the evidence of the Office of Fair Trading and Trading Standards about rogue and cowboy traders, and the suggestion that they would be entitled to put right the damage before the consumer can get their money back and whether the consumer would want that. The second is about the evidence from a number of witnesses about digital and the concept of defects. How that would work in a digital market? A range of software is often sold with bugs in it.

Sheila Gilmore (Labour, Edinburgh East)

Two things: one, would it be better to provide that statutory rights should be made clear to people at the point of sale? That has been suggested by some witnesses. Secondly, the definition of when a service has not been satisfactory remains much as it has been for some time. It has caused problems over years, so why did you not take the opportunity to change it at this point? Would you still be open to looking at it again?

Sheila Gilmore (Labour, Edinburgh East)

The issue about services has always been that the definition appears to look at what a reasonable degree of skill—

Sheila Gilmore (Labour, Edinburgh East)

Yes, which has obviously given rise to differing interpretations over time. There have been suggestions—from the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills, for example—that it could be defined for some services in terms of very clear outputs.

Sheila Gilmore (Labour, Edinburgh East)

Is that not rather like taking the jumper back when it was the wrong size? It would not be that there was not a good quality of service.

Rehman Chishti (Conservative, Gillingham and Rainham)

On the point about redress and the small claims court, I know that the Government have done a lot of good work to ensure that matters are resolved before they come to court. For example, at the moment in the small claims court—as a result of a provision that was introduced last April—you have to have compulsory mediation between the parties before something goes to court. In the light what has been said today, can there be further discussions with the Ministry of Justice to see whether anything else can be done to make the process a bit simpler and clearer, so that those who want to go to a small claims court get redress and are not put off by the whole process?

Rehman Chishti (Conservative, Gillingham and Rainham)

I totally agree with you about that, but it is an option that is available. If somebody has to go, they would want to know that the process is as simple as possible, because normally they will be representing themselves.

Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)

Minister, what steps will you take to ensure that Trading Standards can adequately undertake their statutory functions under the Bill?

Andy McDonald (Labour, Middlesbrough)

Can I drill down a little into that? If an action is to be brought under the enhanced measures, a cost-benefit analysis is required. What assessment have you made about the resources required to produce that analysis? That is going to be quite intensive?

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

I want to take you back to a couple of points for clarification. You said earlier that you thought that Martin Lewis had suggested that if the scope of the Bill were widened, that would cause a problem with simplification. I don’t think that is what I heard him say. Obviously, we can go back to Hansard. Ensuring that the Bill is widened where it needs to be will not affect the simplification. Could I ask you to think again about your answer to that?

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

Just before I go on to my second point, I will go a little more into that. If I understood him correctly, what he was saying was that there are areas—for example when you buy a piece of software and you physically buy the disc and so forth, and you have the updates and the service that comes with it—where it actually crosses over all three. So the Bill, as it stands, is not simple and does not particularly do that job.

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

That doesn’t mean it is the best it should be, though, just because it is better.

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

That is why we are on the Committee.

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

I suspect that the washing machine example has probably created even more confusion, but with your generous offer I look forward to your accepting the amendments that come forward from the Committee.

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

My second and final point is that, with the greatest respect, I am not sure I am clear about your answer on the public-private bit. If you are a patient in Stoke-on-Trent and your local GP refers you to the private provider of chiropody services, then as far as you are concerned, you are having a service through a public contract, but actually it is a private provider who is coming in to provide it. Again, could you clarify your answer in terms of why you do not think that this would necessarily come under the Bill?

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

So you would have no entitlements.

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

Well, you are through your taxes, but in terms of the provision of service, even though the person in front of you is providing the service, that lengthening of the relationship can surely only make things worse from a consumer’s point of view.

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

I would repeat my point that you are paying your taxes and buying that service.

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

You are indirectly paying for it. We will have to beg to differ on that.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I want to ask about the whole area of unfair terms in relation to contracts, the interpretation of those terms as often as not resting with the provider, and the question of unilateral —or arguably unilateral—variations in those terms. The Bank of Ireland mortgage tracker issue is maybe one representation of that question. There are others. Do you think that this is adequately addressed in the Bill, or could we usefully improve the Bill?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Do you think the Bill is up to speed with the changing shape of a lot of the car deals that are now being done? There are different forms of hire contracts and all the rest of it, and people are not sure whether they have bought the car and own the car or whether it is hire-purchase, and things rely on assumed value. Often the same dealers and manufacturers offer people variants of different types of packages. This seems to me to leave people quite confused about what position they will be in when a judgment is made in a few years’ time on whether they have the deal they thought they were leaving the showroom with.

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

There are only three minutes left, and I know at least two colleagues want to ask questions. Perhaps I could now ask them to put their questions, and then the Minister to answer.

Stephen Doughty (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I will be very quick. There is just one other point of clarification on the public-private issue. I apologise for pressing the Minister on this, but I am still slightly confused, particularly when it comes to hybrid situations, perhaps when there is a top-up to an NHS-provided service, for example at an optician or a dentist. Someone might have a base service provided for glasses and pay on top of that from their own private money, and there would be a bill of sale. There are also cases such as personal care budgets. I wonder whether the Minister could provide any further clarity.

Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)

Minister, earlier we had a cautious welcome for the Bill from the business community. It gives consumers clarity and a whole range of new rights. Do you think that the Bill is good for the economy overall?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Minister, I would like to thank you for the evidence you have shared with the Committee this afternoon. Obviously we will hear a lot more from you over the following weeks, but I would like to thank you again for the time you spent with us this afternoon, and indeed thank all the witnesses.