Defence Reform Bill

Public Bill Committee, 8 October 2013.

Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)

Before we begin our line-by-line consideration of the Bill, some brief explanation may be useful to those who are relatively new to Public Bill Committees. The selection list for today’s sitting is available in the room; it shows how the amendments selected for debate have been grouped together. Amendments grouped together are generally on the same or a similar issue. The Member who has put their name to the lead amendment in the group is called first; other Members are then free to catch my eye to speak on the amendments in the group. A Member may speak more than once in a single debate.

At the end of a debate on a group of amendments, I will call the Member who moved the lead amendment again; before they sit down they will need to indicate whether they wish to seek to withdraw the amendment or to seek a decision. If any Member wishes to press any other amendment in a group to a vote, they need to let me know. I will work on the assumption that the Government wish the Committee to reach a decision on all Government amendments.

Decisions on amendments do not take place in the order the amendments are debated but in the order they appear on the amendment paper. I will use my discretion to decide whether to allow a separate stand part debate on individual clauses and schedules, following the debates on the relevant amendments.

I hope that explanation was helpful. I also remind Members that as today is the first day back after the recess, the Committee’s sitting times are as if today were a Monday. Our first session today will therefore have to finish by 1 pm.

Clause 1 - Arrangements for providing defence procurement services

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

I beg to move amendment 1, in clause 1, page 1, leave out lines 9 to 10.

Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 2, in clause 1, page 1, line 10, after ‘DE&S’, insert—

‘subject to conditions on maintenance and upkeep set by the Secretary of State,’.

Amendment 3, in clause 1, page 2, line 42, at end insert—

‘(7A) Arrangements mentioned in this section must include provision for contractual obligations to be placed on the company operating the contract for defence procurement services under subsection (2), specifically including provision to—

(a) require non-UK companies to establish special security arrangements for the operation of the contract;

(b) disqualify from the directorship of the company any individual who holds a directorship over any other company whose main business is in the manufacturing or provision of equipment, works or services for defence purposes and;

(c) disqualify from the directorship of the company any individual who holds financial securities in any other company whose main business is in the manufacturing or provision of equipment, works or services for defence purposes.’.

Amendment 5, in clause 1, page 2, line 42, at end insert—

‘(7A) Arrangements mentioned in this section may not be brought into force until the Secretary of State has published guidance on the operation of the contract, specifically including—

(a) the system by which available defence contracts shall be advertised to potential bidders, and;

(b) the responsibility of the company operating the contract under subsection (2) to produce and report annually against progress on an export strategy’.

Amendment 10, in clause 1, page 2, line 42, at end add—

‘(7A) Arrangements mentioned in this section must include provision for contractual obligations to be placed on the company operating the contract for defence procurement services under subsection (2); specifically including provision to prohibit the sale of financial securities in any publicly-listed company appointed under subsection (2) where such sale would result in a change of majority ownership.’.

Amendment 4, in clause 1, page 3, line 31, at end add—

‘“special security arrangements” means a proxy board or Special Security agreement set up to prevent foreign influence over British defence interests.’.

Clause stand part.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

It is good to be here serving under your chairmanship, Mr Brady, bright and early on a Monday morning—[ Interruption. ] I am sorry, a Tuesday morning. We have survived reshuffles, at least for the time being.

There is a great deal of uncertainty about the proposals in the Bill, both within the Committee and among experts and the media. Concerns are bubbling up, and were evident during the evidence sessions. I am therefore going to press the Minister for clarification on a number of issues specific to the clause and to the amendments we have tabled. At present I will keep the option open as to whether the Opposition will press amendments to a vote; that will depend very largely on the Minister’s response. We need him to convince us, not just to reassure us—the Minister can of course be very reassuring.

Your guidance in the selection of amendments suggests, Mr Brady, that because of the wide-ranging nature of the clause there is no need for a separate stand part debate. I therefore hope that the Committee will bear with me as I have quite a long speech, some of which is also fairly technical.

I will start with the general concerns about the model for the Government-owned contractor-operated organisation. At the outset, we need to seek confirmation from the Minister on the exact shape of the GoCo and to press him on the issues relating to it that gave the most cause for concern during our previous sittings. He needs to justify to the Committee the need for a GoCo. A number of questions were posed during the evidence sessions—most notably by the Royal United Services Institute, ADS and Lord West—that are pertinent to the clause and to the questions raised by hon. Members themselves during those sessions. In order to ensure a debate on the issue, we took the somewhat drastic step of tabling an amendment—amendment 1, which would delete lines nine to 10—that would remove a chunk of the clause.

During the witness sessions, Dr Louth of RUSI said clearly that some of the assumptions made in 2009, when the previous Labour Government started the process that led ultimately to the proposal for a GoCo, are no longer relevant. Many in the industry also seem to have reached that view. As we are repeatedly told, the defence budget is no longer overheated, and the Levene reforms are addressing some of the dysfunctional relationships that existed within DE&S. The main driver for the measure would therefore appear to be the lack of skills available to drive procurement and project management.

During meetings in the conference season, I heard time and again that defence procurement in the UK is actually among the best in the world, so people asked what it is we are trying to improve and whether the Bill enables that improvement. We appear to need to improve and enhance three key elements within DE&S: negotiating skills, because there is a weakness that can be—and probably has been, at times—exploited by business; project management skills, some of which is about the constant churn of individuals; and risk assessment and the associated IT skills, as we need to drill down into individual programmes, but that is not quite happening as it should. I also heard that the approach taken through the assessment phase could be flawed, because it does not consider an “as is” option. It would be interesting to have on the record the rationale behind the exclusion of that option, because that is relevant.

The clause allows for detailed examination of the proposals, and I hope that some of the issues I outlined will be discussed. Let us start at the beginning: the clause gives scope for the arrangement for the GoCo to be put in place, which consists of one or two company options. In Mr Gray’s evidence, he tried to explain how the model might work. He stated:

“What we will be doing is splitting it up into several layers. There is a top management company that, if we proceeded with it, is owned by whichever consortium won a competition and we appointed. The parent companies of that would own the shares in the management company, which would have just a handful of employees. Underneath that, there is an operating company that they have the right to operate. They own it for as long as we allow them to, but we have a golden share that allows us to take it back into Government control, or indeed to transfer it to a different operator at our choosing. We have a stable operating company platform, inside which the employees, all the structures and contracts, and everything else remain undisturbed, and we have what you might call a decapitation layer that we can change, not at will, but according to how it performs and who wins a subsequent contract and so on.”––[Official Report, Defence Reform Public Bill Committee, 5 September 2013; c. 82-3, Q172.]

I will return to the decapitation issue, and the possible reasons for removing the head, later.

As Mr Gray made clear in that quote, the clause allows for premises, property and employees to be provided to the contractor, and it allows for the contract to be terminated and passed on to another contractor or to be brought in-house as the Secretary of State sees fit. It also sets out the scope for the changes to be introduced in phases, with the maritime sector, I believe, going first. The Minister’s parliamentary answer to me suggested that, but it has not been easy to track down precise details on the new Government website. Perhaps he could touch on the logic behind the decision, while staying within your parameters, Mr Brady. Why maritime: did the Minister think that was the easiest service to change first, or did he perhaps opt for the most complex? We would be interested to hear about that.

I turn to international partnerships, an area that is equally uncertain. Despite the reassuring noises made in the witness sessions, the future of our relationships with key international partners and allies gives cause for concern. A number of hon. Members, on both sides, sought answers to questions about the positions of our allies, particularly the USA. Of course, the Americans, as was discussed in the witness sessions, looked at their own versions of the GoCos and backtracked. The recent RUSI paper, “What the Government must do in Defence Procurement”, dated September 2013, sets out the US definition of what should be carried out within government, which varies from the position the Government have taken with the GoCo. Moving to a GoCo sends out a message that equipping our armed forces personnel is not

“a function that is so intimately related to the public interest as to mandate performance by public employees.”

Any decision, therefore, to progress with the GoCo will be of interest to our key ally, because we appear to be taking a view quite different from the way they intend to operate.

The Minister and the Chief of Defence Matériel confirmed that, although a taskforce had been set up by the United States, they were confident that the interfaces could be made to work. Some of the companies involved in the bidding process also believe that, based on their experience of working on joint US-UK projects, there should not be an issue. Other companies, though, have voiced concerns owing to their experience of working with the US on projects at the highest security level.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

What is my hon. Friend’s view on how the GoCo will work not for new contracts, but existing contracts such as the F-35, which is a joint contract with the United States and other partners? Does she think that the United States, or other partners, will have a view on a GoCo somehow taking control of that contract?

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

There are serious concerns about existing contracts and some of the retrospectivity issues in the Bill, some of which I will come on to later. My hon. Friend has rightly raised a pertinent issue that I hope the Minister will be able to address in due course.

Companies from the UK think they can manage the level of involvement. However, as my hon. Friend has just made clear, there are potential issues for the US with existing big projects and future projects, and perhaps for our joint projects with other countries such as France, Italy and Spain. I would welcome the Minister’s view on those relationships and how they will work in the future.

Tobias Ellwood (Conservative, Bournemouth East)

The hon. Lady has made an important point, which has been highlighted by the hon. Member for North Durham. Will she explain in what way there would be a conflict of interest if the GoCo were an international consortium, and how that would affect an existing contract such as that for the F-35? That contract is complicated, but no doubt there are firewalls in place to ensure that intellectual property rights are protected. Without such an explanation, the hon. Lady could be adding confusion rather than providing clarity.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

There certainly are firewalls in place and as I said, at the moment companies feel that, by and large, they work. There are definitely concerns about conflicts of interest that need to be thrashed out, and I will come on to them in more detail later.

The Minister is in a far better position than I am to explain how he will respond to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham about the position of existing contracts. I await with interest the Minister’s detailed response.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

The proposal before us does not have any structures that guarantee that the intellectual property of entities such as the United States is protected. At the moment, European companies that conduct business in the United States have to have US-only boards. There is no such firewall at all in the proposal.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

As my hon. Friend knows, we have tabled an amendment that proposes separate boards. I will come on to all those issues further down the line.

The hon. Member for Bournemouth East asked a perfectly reasonable question. When we met with members of the French equivalent of the Select Committee on Defence, many eyebrows were raised about the GoCo and how they would fit into a future process; there are issues.

The Americans themselves are looking at issues such as international intellectual property agreements and programmes, export controls, special programmes, technology transfer, foreign disclosure, third-party transfers, export licences, industrial control and nuclear programmes. Generally, the feedback from the United States is that the UK Government have been responsive in trying to answer some of the questions the Americans have about the “showstoppers”, as they might be described. However, we still do not know whether we have fully satisfied our US counterparts. Will the Minister tell us which concerns are still current and are still being raised by other Governments? Does he know whether the Americans intend to test case studies against our GoCo modelling in due course? Rumour has it that they are likely to want to. What is the fall-back position? What contingency is there if they find they cannot make it work to their satisfaction?

If that is the likely route plan, when does the Minister expect to be able to put on record that he has firm confirmation from the Americans, and other nations that might be looking to undertake similar reviews on their joint working, that they are entirely happy with the GoCo model? Are we looking at 2013, 2014 or 2015? Otherwise, we will be asked to vote through a measure about which there are still significant reservations, both nationally and internationally.

I turn to conflicts of interest and amendment 3. A number of companies and trade organisations have voiced scepticism—in the witness sessions, in the media and directly to me—about the potential for conflicts of interest. There are, however, differing views. Babcock’s chief executive, Peter Rogers, openly said that he believes there will be conflicts of interest. I quote his words as reported in The Independent:

“It’s inconceivable that you could be responsible for the GoCo and win contracts. I’m not sure it’s dawned on Serco yet.”

Peter is a shrewd operator and always quick to see an opportunity, as his company’s results show. He has clearly decided not to put Babcock forward for tenders because he believes it could damage his business.

The other big worry for business—the other side of the coin—is the potential for companies involved in running the GoCo to gain advantage from the knowledge they gain from being in control of project management and IP. Will they be able to use that knowledge when bidding for contracts outside the UK—say in South Korea or Australia—against companies to whose data and strategies they have had access through their role in the UK GoCo? How will those companies know that the companies in the GoCo have not used insider knowledge to unfair advantage? Should Babcock worry that it is not on a level playing field with companies involved in the GoCo, rather than the disadvantage that it felt would exist from being involved with it? Which is it? We will return to this topic later in the debate, so I will not labour the point, but it begs further questions about whether a GoCo is the right vehicle for the change in DE&S.

One of the bidders is anonymously quoted in the media as saying:

“Conflicts will be top of our list; it’s going to be a nightmare. It’s not possible to be part of a conglomerate bid of this size without conflicts of interest.”

That is a slightly ambiguous statement, because it might imply that there will be conflicts and tensions within the consortia, but either way, it is a concern.

Many people involved in the GoCo will have directorships and posts with other defence-related interests. The chief executive of C2HM HILL has said that he will step down from his role at BAe if it is given the contract, but what guarantee is there that that will apply across the piece? Will the Minister ensure that there is no cross-pollination of directors or employees at any level, which would give cause for concern? Amendment 3 would disqualify directors of companies in the GoCo from sitting on other defence companies’ boards. The CEO of C2HM HILL has already made his position clear, but the Bill should contain a clear provision to ensure that directors’ positions cannot be abused. For example, directors involved in the consortia should be restricted from owning shares in defence companies that are the beneficiaries of defence contracts.

The amendment mentions the special security arrangement used by a number of UK companies when dealing with the US, which my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham touched on. The SSA enables the board of a company to be composed of US citizens and nationals from the parent company’s country. For Rolls-Royce, GKN or BAe—companies that operate in the States—when matters of national security are discussed, only the US managers can participate, and we propose to mirror that arrangement in the UK. That would allow financial issues to be visible, but not technology, and offers some insurance and integrity in the system. Has the Minister considered that set-up and the protection from undue foreign interference it offers?

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

My hon. Friend referred to directors of the GoCo not having conflicts of interest while they are directors, but does she agree that there are concerns about former directors of the GoCo leaving the GoCo to join defence companies or other contractors that have contracts with the MOD? They might have undue influence in getting those contracts.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

There is a question about whether rules similar to those that govern Ministers’ movement into defence companies should apply to directors, but it is difficult to be over-restrictive if somebody has experience and they want to use it some reasonable time later. We have some concerns, and we are likely to press amendment 3.

On premises, property and transfers, subsection (1)(b)(i) allows a company

“to acquire from the Secretary of State rights in or over premises and property”.

Will the Minister give the Committee an idea of the likely total valuation of the sites to be transferred and the level of dilapidation? How will the transfer be delivered? Will it be on a PFI-type contract or will it be a straight transfer, as the wording of the Bill suggests; and if so, what guarantee is there that the company will adequately maintain the premises? Clearly, we do not want to be faced with a massive repair bill if the premises are later brought back in house. How will the upkeep of the premises be overseen? Will it include renegotiation of any rental or leasing of goods, equipment or property transferred under the clause? Will the company be liable for the maintenance of the property and premises acquired? Will it fall within the governor’s role to oversee the use of such premises and to ensure that they are maintained to a proper standard?

Are there any sensibilities over their use? Subsection (1)(a) and (b) mentions employees, property and premises

“being made available for providing the defence procurement services.”

Can the Minister confirm that such resources cannot be used for any other related or non-related purpose by the GoCo, such as working for any of the companies that make up the GoCo, which may have private defence procurement interests? Is the wording of the clause tight enough to prevent that abuse?

What are the wider implications of the transfer for the economy of the south-west? Do the bidders intend to retain Abbey Wood and to continue to run the company from those premises? What discussions have the Minister or his officials had about a continuing presence in Bristol following any potential transfer? In the worst case scenario, is there anything to prevent the new company from deciding to move the DE&S function lock, stock and barrel to another part of the country, or to break it up? The Treasury green book and the MOD guide to investment appraisals contain guidance that dictates that officials involved in defence procurement should consider the wider socio-economic impact on the nation: will that apply to the GoCo when it is making decisions about what it does with both people and buildings? If the company acquires rights over premises currently in use by the MOD for defence purposes, could it sub-let portions of the buildings, perhaps to a foreign company carrying out defence procurement work for someone else? It could argue that that counted as “defence purposes”. I am not clear where the Bill specifies that such action is restricted, so if the Minister points me in the right direction, I will be grateful. Subsection (8) sets out the definition of “defence purposes” as

“the purposes of defence (whether or not of the United Kingdom)”.

I am sure that the Minister received watertight legal advice, but it is important that we are assured that there is no scope for the sort of abuse I describe.

Are safeguards in place regarding what people are used for when transferred? What safeguards has the Minister put in place, or what safeguards does he intend to put in place, to ensure that corners are not cut by the new company when it comes to employing the appropriate skill sets? Is there a risk that the company could decide to cut back on skilled personnel, and in so doing cut its wage costs and increase profits? We can discuss the matter in more detail when we reach clause 9, but it is a concern.

We also want to see a duty to issue guidance to potential bidders for defence contracts to be managed by the GoCo to ensure that small and medium-sized contractors receive information at a level that works for them and enables a bidding process that is not too onerous or repetitive. We are keen to ensure transparency in the export achievement and strategy of the contractor, and amendment 5, which may be rather heavy handed, was designed to flag up the concerns raised by many SMEs, including those I visited in the north of England during the summer. The Minister and his Department have been working with BIS and are seeking to enable such companies to bid, but it is definitely still an issue. Amendment 5 is probing, so I will wait to hear the Minister’s response, but we may return to and vote on it later. Export strategy is another matter of particular interest to industry and is relevant when looking at the MOD and the impact of its procurement decisions on the wider economy.

The impact assessment, which specifically relates to the second part of the Bill—I assure you that I am not straying off-piste, Mr Brady—states that there will be a

“simplified single source procurement process for smaller contracts and suppliers”.

That is welcome, but will the Minister confirm what is meant by “simplified”? Will similar rules apply to people seeking contracts from the GoCo?

The question of private and foreign ownership has caused widespread anxiety and controversy, in part because of private sector involvement. Is there a risk of another G4S Olympics debacle or a Serco scandal? There have been allegations of overcharging for electronic tags. What are the risks to the GoCo of foreign ownership? There are two separate issues, and I will start with foreign ownership

Much of our defence sector is foreign-owned, and we have defence equipment built for us out of country. However, take a scenario where the GoCo tender is won and the companies in it have, as part of the bidding process, satisfied the MOD and the Secretary of State, but a couple of years down the line, shares are traded and they end up in the hands of a Russian oligarch or another interesting party; the company may even be subject to a takeover. How would the Government react to that scenario? Would they simply take the whole thing back in house if there were serious concerns about ownership and access to UK defence interests? Would they decapitate it, as the CDM suggested? What would the legal position be for the other parties to the consortium? Can the Minister reassure the Committee by citing any UK precedents? What criteria would he use to decide whether there was a serious risk?

In the evidence sessions, the CDM pointed out that many companies have been barred from the bid process, but he went on to say:

“The conflict of interest of the people who are here is pretty small.”––[Official Report, Defence Reform Public Bill Committee, 5 September 2013; c. 95, Q198.]

When he said “here”, did he mean the UK, or did he mean that part of the process? Those are basic questions, perhaps, but I would welcome an answer. If the CDM meant here in the UK, where does that leave those overseas companies that are part of the bidding process? Do they have conflicts of interest that we cannot touch? Do we need to consider our amendments, which would ensure that the UK part of the business is rigidly firewalled and go beyond simply ensuring that there is a British CEO or chairman? That moves into the realms of the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham. Those are perfectly reasonable questions, and I am sure the Minister will be happy to answer them.

We also have questions about the transfer of the contract, which is dealt with in subsection (2)(a). Does the Minister envisage more than one contract being run at the same time under this part of the clause, perhaps for one or more of the service pillars, with one contractor running in parallel with another? Does the paragraph simply allow the Secretary of State to end one contract, start another and have continuity and overlap to allow staff to be transferred; if so, how will that transfer of staff work? We will come back to that when we discuss clause 9.

John Woodcock (Labour, Barrow and Furness)

Does my hon. Friend share my concern about the potential transfer of risk, particularly in relation to nuclear safety in Barrow shipyard? Real questions remain about the assessment framework and whether we can reasonably expect sufficient expertise in such a critical matter to reside properly in whichever contractor takes over the GoCo.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

My hon. Friend, with his experience of Barrow, asks a good question. I am sure the Minister has noted it and will respond. Risks at all sorts of levels run through the Bill, and my hon. Friend has highlighted a risk specific to Barrow and a few other sites.

In the transfer of functions under the clause, will the cost assurance and analysis service be transferred to the GoCo? The CAAS is currently based within DE&S and that organisation is its primary customer, along with MOD head office and the Defence Infrastructure Organisation. The CAAS verifies figures and offers cost management support to the front-line commands, given their increasingly important role in procurement. Since 2010, the Government appear to have been making serious efforts to improve the role and function of CAAS and to have recognised that cost assurance and analysis plays a major role in ensuring best value for money.

Strengthening the service and expanding its use were particularly noted in Lord Levene’s report on defence reform in 2011. One of his original recommendations was to mandate the use of the service more broadly across defence to support all investment decisions and planning, not just those directly related to DE&S. In fact, in his first annual report in December 2012, Lord Levene noted:

“The use of CAAS has been mandated across DE&S and capability areas of Head Office. In addition Smart Approvals states that the Approving Authorities would expect to see that all figures contained in cases have been verified by CAAS. CAAS has also initiated cost management support to the Front Line Commands, recognising their increased responsibilities through Defence Reform.”

What will be the impact on CAAS of the proposals in the Bill?

I notice that a contract notice was posted earlier this year, and the intention was to award the contract for a three-year period. The contract is similar to one awarded to KMPG in 2010 to strengthen the cost assurance role in the MOD. On that basis, it would appear that the MOD intends to continue to develop the service and envisages a future role for it, but nothing is stated explicitly in the Bill or explanatory notes.

The majority of the work that CAAS does is for DE&S. Transferring it and its personnel to a GoCo, as referenced in the clause, probably as part of the common resource platform that will cover commercial, financial, technical and HR functions, would therefore seem a likely outcome, but CAAS also does cost assurance work for MOD head office and, increasingly, for the front-line commands—the “requestors” who will continue to drive the overall equipment plan. Under the proposals for GoCos, the governor who will oversee the GoCo contracting entity will also have cost assurance obligations to meet in relation to the GoCo contract itself. The question is, therefore, can we transfer the CAAS to a GoCo and allow it still to fulfil those functions—particularly the latter—independently, or does there need to be some element of CAAS that is separated off and stays within head office? It has also been suggested that CAAS should be developed into a cross-departmental centre of excellence, thereby providing cost assurance services to other Government Departments, not just the MOD. How would that aspiration work if it became part of a GoCo?

The explanatory notes to the Bill state:

“The provisions in Part 1 of the Bill will not apply to any services which the contractor provides to anyone other than the Secretary of State.”

Does that mean that the contractor will be able to offer services elsewhere, both inside and outside Government, or indeed inside or outside the UK? Some clarification on that technical point would be helpful.

Clause 1(7) touches on giving the contractor free rein in the name of the Secretary of State. Will the Minister give a few examples of the circumstances in which the contractor may find himself able to use powers previously reserved for the Secretary of State? Does the contractor have to go to the Secretary of State when he wants to make use of such freedom, or can he go ahead without getting any clearance? Is the governor the person who will oversee the use of such freedoms on behalf of the Secretary of State?

The CDM, who is likely to become the governor, said during our oral evidence session:

“I think that we are the victims of our own perspective. We have not done a good enough job of explaining clearly the proposition in our minds—how it works”.––[Official Report, Defence Reform Public Bill Committee, 5 September 2013; c. 97, Q205.]

He promised the Committee sight of a document giving a clearer picture, which might have helped us to understand better the powers that the governor will take on behalf of the Secretary of State, as well as the layout and workings of a GoCo, but we do not appear to have received it. Perhaps I could ask through you, Mr Brady, for the document to be provided to the Committee before we complete our scrutiny of part 1 of the Bill?

I have a couple of general questions on cyber-security. Will a GoCo be responsible for maintaining the highest level of cyber-security throughout the supply chains of companies working on defence projects? If so, who will check that that is happening? Indeed, has the Minister included criteria within the invitation to negotiate to ensure the necessary level of cyber-security?

Can the Minister confirm that the clause is not effectively just setting up three tiers of bureaucracy? There would appear to be one tier of bureaucracy in each of the following: the requestor pillars have one tier, with procurement experts sitting within it so that they have some idea of what they could buy for their budgets; there will be one highly professional and very well paid tier sitting within DE&S, with some 7,000 or 8,000 employees being transferred over; and there will be a tier of people with procurement expertise sitting alongside the governor, to ensure that the Secretary of State has somebody keeping an eye on what is going on in the GoCo. However, if there are pay limitations for the bodies on either side of the GoCo—and one of the drivers for setting up the GoCo is to ensure we have expertise in the right place—surely this will perpetuate the problem the GoCo seeks to address. There will be two sets of civil servants paid and skilled on a different level from those in the GoCo.

The Minister does have some serious questions to answer. In particular, given that I have not received an answer to the parliamentary question I tabled in September, will he let me know whether a report was recently requested by one of the big four—Deloitte, PwC, Ernst and Young or KPMG—on whether the GoCo is sustainable? If such a report was commissioned—I have it on reasonably good authority that one was—the Minister needs to allow members of this Committee to see it to enable us to decide whether the GoCo is a sensible route along which to proceed. There are now reports in newspapers from serious journalists suggesting that yet again, the Secretary of State is having doubts about the idea and that he may ultimately pull the plug.

We have gone from being pretty open-minded about this model to being highly sceptical in the last few days, partly due to outside comments about the apparent concerns within Government and of Ministers. Although we will not vote against the clause today, because no information has been forthcoming about the alleged report on the sustainability of the GoCo, we will, having seen it, consider what to do on Report. The Minister and I have had numerous discussions about the position of the GoCo. In part because it was begun under a Labour Government and we had moved towards this model, our view was that it may be part of the answer—not to problems, but to providing the improvements needed to ensure better procurement processes. However, we are now far from happy. On that basis, I will press amendment 3 to a vote and await the Minister’s answers on amendment 5. We will not at this time vote against the clause.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

It is rather reassuring to be in Committee Room 9, rather than the Boothroyd Room, for this more detailed stage of our deliberations. It is a bit cosier and we can all enjoy the atmosphere better, particularly under your benign chairmanship, Mr Brady.

I will start by congratulating the hon. Lady on retaining her position on the Front Bench and offering commiserations to her and any of her colleagues who thought they might have been elevated to the top slot. If news is forthcoming during the course of our proceedings, I am sure, Mr Brady, you will allow that to reach members of the Committee—if inspiration arrives.

Thomas Docherty (Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife)

I checked the website of the Ministry of Defence this morning. It does not state the new Government portfolios. Will the Minister confirm who will be his immediate boss? Will it be the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) or the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois)?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

With reference to the issue of the boss, I take your strictures properly, Mr Brady. I stand here as the Minister for Defence Equipment, Support and Technology. I report to the Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), and I will continue to do so, as far as I know, after this sitting finishes.

I acknowledge the spirit in which the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View moved the amendments. Some were clearly probing and others were more substantive. I will address as many of her concerns as I can at this sitting, and draw attention to aspects of the clause’s subsections which the Committee needs to consider before we move on. I shall deal first with the amendments themselves and then with any of the hon. Lady’s points that I have not covered.

I start by picking up on her opening remarks about why we need a GoCo and why we are not comparing it with an “as is” Defence Equipment and Support organisation, rather than a DE&S-plus. In responding to a question on that issue during our evidence sessions from my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North, Bernard Gray pointed out that, as one would expect, as the responsible officer he has a business plan for running DE&S. The current business plan runs to 2015 and he is in the process of preparing another review, which

“will stretch out for two to three years beyond that in detail, which has a whole work force wiring diagram, work force plan and laid down activity, as well as the equipment plan, which incorporates the new equipment and the support plan.”––[Official Report, Defence Reform Public Bill Committee, 5 September 2013; c. 96, Q204.]

The hon. Lady will be familiar with the equipment plan because we published it in January. It has a 10-year life and is being updated for an annual iteration. Work is under way for its first review, which will be published in a few months’ time. It provides considerable structure for the task of DE&S, which is to deliver the equipment plan, and its organisation is established in the business plan for DE&S itself. That business plan will be the “as is” benchmark against which DE&S-plus and the GoCo are measured.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Is not one of the possibly naive aspects of Bernard Gray’s approach to this subject that somehow we can fix the procurement process now? Some of these projects may take a decade to deliver. Within that time there will be a change of Government, but equipment will also change, as will the demands of our armed forces. Is he putting an artificial straitjacket around innovation and the possible saving of money?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I do not see it that way. What we aim to do in reorganising the way DE&S works is not to second-guess the equipment capability changes that will inevitably happen over time, but to ensure that we enter into contracts to deliver that equipment with enough confidence and capability in the project management of those contracts to ensure that they are delivered on time and on budget, in a manner that previous Governments, including Conservative Governments, have not done as well as they should.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

But is it not the nature of defence equipment that it changes over time? For example, if we were sat here in 2001, very few people would be predicting that we would need an entire suite of armoured vehicles to protect against improvised explosive devices in Iraq and Afghanistan. That change is obviously a political decision. How fixed in stone is the equipment programme? Will it allow flexibility to respond to such things?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

DE&S is an agent of the Secretary of State—of the MOD—so the equipment capability will continue to be determined outside DE&S. It will be the procurement agent that negotiates the contract and ensures that its terms are met. One change, which has taken place since the hon. Gentleman’s time in the Department, is the fact that, through the defence transformation, we have provided greater responsibility and accountability to the commands for their own equipment capability setting. That happened with effect from 1 April. Those organisations within each command determine what the operational requirements demand and make changes to the equipment to keep up with the current threat, as perceived.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

The Minister must admit, though, that there is only a finite amount of money in the budget and if changes are to be made within that, that will affect existing projects. Money might move from one project to another: his Government have done that, as did mine. I accept what he says about giving more responsibility to the chain of command, but, from my experience, I suggest that that will make things worse and lead to commands protecting budgets and over-specifying equipment requirements.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I may be guided by the hon. Gentleman’s experience of dealing with the commands, which is greater than mine thus far, but what has changed, and what should change their behaviour, is the fact that there will now be a harder relationship between DE&S and the command. If a decision is made to change a specification, which is what he is driving at—

Tobias Ellwood (Conservative, Bournemouth East)

Will my hon. Friend give way?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

Let me conclude this point. If there is a change in specification, that will come with a priced cost, which the command has to accept. If that leads to greater expenditure, that will come out of that command’s budget and it will have to make the decision on where it will find the savings to pay for that increased specification. Hitherto, equipment setting has been undertaken by commands, with individuals in the MOD, but there was no direct accountability for impact on the budget for the changes made. That is one of the driving theories behind what we are trying to do here: introduce more rigour to the decision-making process.

Mr Jones rose—

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The hon. Gentleman has had a good go. I will let my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East intervene.

Tobias Ellwood (Conservative, Bournemouth East)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister for giving way. The hon. Member for North Durham looks back in time and uses the example of the urgent operational requirement that went through because improvised explosive device vehicles were needed, but does my hon. Friend agree that lack of consistency led to that lack of accountability and to so many different vehicles being purchased off the shelf? That is exactly what we want to avoid, which is why we are introducing this new system of accountability and of connection with those who make decisions on the front line.

The equipment that the hon. Gentleman referred to was purchased for Kosovo and Bosnia, then sold off because there was no awareness that it would be needed subsequently. However, six vehicles were procured during our time in Afghanistan. I hope my hon. Friend agrees that that is exactly what we need to avoid here.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The Committee benefits enormously from the experience of some of its members, not least those who have been on active service in operations. I am grateful for that prompt reminder of some of the problems we had in procuring equipment.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

That discussion brings me back to one of my final points: the necessary expertise that will sit within each of those service columns, on procurement and on the technical side. How will the Minister ensure that the people who sit there have the skills to reach decisions on behalf of those service columns that achieve value for money, but do not lead to those decisions being overruled or misused and abused by people in a GoCo, who might be paid a lot more?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

That is about how we stand up the intelligent customer, within the MOD or within the services. As explained to the House, since 1 April the capability team within the MOD has essentially been separated, with roughly half the personnel going down to each of the service commands and roughly half remaining in the MOD. Our intention is that some individuals in DE&S, either who have responsibility for certain activities that will not go in scope or who have some capability skills, will be retained by the MOD. We will come to that when we talk about scope.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Will the Minister give way?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

For the last time; I will then make progress if I may.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I thought that the purpose of the Committee was to scrutinise the Minister, but if he does not want to answer questions, that is fine. On budgets, the point is not the intelligent customer, but political decisions that will have an impact on the lifetime of projects. There are at least two such decisions that the Government have made. One is the delay in the main gate for the nuclear deterrent, which, for political reasons, has added about £100 million to the budget. The other is the fiasco of cats and traps on aircraft carriers—a political decision that had a major impact on the delivery of the carrier project.

How will the Minister ensure that a GoCo—a separate negotiating arm—is insulated from such decisions? Do not all such decisions come down, quite rightly, to a Minister making priority decisions?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

Clearly, the plans we have put in place to try to reform how procurement takes place go back, ultimately, to ministerial decision making. We have sought to introduce rigour by having a 10-year equipment plan that will be determined year on year, so it will be reassessed and approved at ministerial level each year. As the hon. Gentleman might recall, that will be by domain, by capital equipment and by support, and by year. Within each domain, the major categories are identified, so we have surface ships, we have submarines—

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

You have not published it.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

We have published it. It was published in January this year— [ Interruption. ] Yes, it was. Another iteration will be published. I cannot promise that it will be this coming January—it may be the end of this year; we will have to see—but it will be in a few months’ time.

Julian Brazier (Conservative, Canterbury)

I thoroughly endorse what my hon. Friend has said. It should perhaps be put on the record that the central problem with the cats and traps was the previous Government’s decision not to go for nuclear propulsion. That meant that there was no affordable, proven option for cats and traps, which has left us with a single choice—[ Interruption. ]

Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)

Order. Before the Minister replies, I remind hon. Members that if they wish to intervene they can seek to do so, and that if they wish to seek to catch my eye subsequently they may be fortunate in doing so.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

Thank you, Mr Brady.

The aircraft carrier decisions illustrate the scale of the problem here— [Interruption.] Under both Governments. I am going to rehearse, if I may, why I believe that to be the case. In 2009, the decision was taken to slip the delivery dates of the aircraft carriers, without sufficient understanding of the costs that would be incurred. In the end, that decision cost some £1.5 billion—more than double the original estimate put to Ministers by the procurement executive, DE&S. That was £1.5 billion of extra cost for no increase in capability. If decision makers had known at the time the full cost of their decisions, they might have made different choices.

Similarly in 2010, under this Government, the decision to switch to catapults and arrestors for a CV carrier was made on the basis of inadequate and immature costings. Once the costings had become clearer, it was obvious that that choice did not represent value for money. Time, money and effort could have been saved in both cases if decision makers had had adequate information, including the information that what data were available were not of a quality to make decisions of that magnitude. That is the issue we are trying to put right through the GoCo or DE&S-plus.

Tobias Ellwood (Conservative, Bournemouth East)

Further to that, and linking up with what my hon. Friend the Member for Canterbury said, the issue goes back to the decision on how to power the aircraft carriers—

Thomas Docherty (Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife)

No.

Tobias Ellwood (Conservative, Bournemouth East)

If the hon. Gentleman bears with me, I will play the argument out. As the carriers are not nuclear, there is no steam on board. If there is no steam on board, the carrier cannot run cats and traps. If the carrier cannot run cats and traps off steam, there has to be a new system—the electromagnetic aircraft launch system—which, as some hon. Members are aware, has yet to be procured properly. That did not happen.

We had to move from the C class to the B simply because the Labour Government ran out of money and burned £38 billion from the MOD’s budget. That meant that we had to resort to the cheaper B variant. [Interruption.]

Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)

Order. Before the Minister responds, it might be helpful if I point out the fact that we are scrutinising the Bill, not the procurement programme itself. It might take some of the high excitement out of the exchanges if we focus on the matters before us.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

Thank you, Mr Brady. I am sure that the Committee is energised by these discussions, which are keeping us all awake for what is quite a technical Bill. I do not want to discourage colleagues from keeping awake and alert.

As we are on the subject of maritime, and before I get to the detail of the amendments, I want to pick up one of the questions asked by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View: why maritime was chosen for the first phase. Quite reasonably, she asked us to explain the rationale behind that.

The intent, in the event that we go down the GoCo route, is that maritime, along with the common resource platform, by which we mean finance, legal and other professional services provided within DE&S, would go in phase 1. Maritime accounts for some 45% of the planned DE&S expenditure over the next decade. That is contained within a relatively small number of large projects, compared with the other domains. The sooner that such projects can get the benefits associated with an improved procurement system, the faster the impact of undertaking the change.

Also, the maritime domain raises a number of issues that the hon. Lady has been raising—some of the more substantial questions posed by adopting a GoCo model, such as dealing with international partners, which I will talk about later. We had to make a choice between four domains—the joint domain being the fourth—and it was quite finely balanced. There were arguments on both sides. Ultimately, we concluded that, because of the impact and the fact that it would test a number of challenging areas, that was the right way to go.

John Woodcock (Labour, Barrow and Furness)

Will the Minister share his thoughts on the tricky issue of nuclear safety and the expertise that has been built up in the Royal Navy and the Department? Is he satisfied that that responsibility can be effectively transferred to a GoCo?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I will address that straightaway, as it is a specific question and clearly relevant to his constituents and the constituents of Government Members. Our intent at the moment is that the nuclear safety activity will be within scope of GoCo. We will test that as we take it forward. If the hon. Gentleman has specific concerns, I will be happy to discuss them outside the Committee, so that we can get the benefit of his expertise on the matter.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

The Minister is suggesting that he will transfer responsibility for nuclear safety to a private company. Where does that leave our arrangements with the Americans on transfer of information? Will that be included in the transfer? If so—information on nuclear deterrent is a Government-to-Government contract—are the Americans content that that should be handed to a private entity?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The hon. Gentleman is encouraging me to address issues that I was going to come to later. As he is well aware, the Atomic Weapons Establishment, which handles some of the most sensitive nuclear material, is already in a GoCo arrangement. The safety considerations are adequately and regularly addressed within the overall framework of a nuclear safety regime that applies to civil and military installations in this country.

Thomas Docherty (Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife)

Just on the point about the AWE, it has been a while since I worked with the nuclear industry, but can the Minister remind me what safeguards there are about ownership? Is he content that exactly the same safeguards are being put in place for the GoCo, or is he open-minded about the proposals being put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I am afraid I will come on to that later, because the way in which conflicts of interest and transfers of ownership are dealt with is a separate issue and is not directly relevant to nuclear safety. I now turn to the amendments.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Will the Minister address the issue of the transfer of nuclear information between the United States and the UK?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

We are reviewing with the United States any aspect of our relationship where they or we feel it is appropriate to continue to have Government personnel with primary responsibility. We are reviewing the whole range of our relationship. I was asked—by either the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View or the hon. Member for North Durham himself—whether we have examples of test cases that we have taken through with the US. We are doing that when the relationship would be affected by the GoCo. If we identify something that requires a Crown servant to be the responsible officer, we will ensure that that is in place.

We intend to continue to have a number of military personnel on secondment in the GoCo. I wrote to the Committee during the recess to give an indication of the numbers that we expect will continue to be on secondment to the GoCo. Those individuals will remain Crown servants and will be part of the military command chain.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

That is very interesting. Will the Minister tell the Committee when those areas will be agreed with the Americans? Are there any red lines that they will not accept? The other thing is, if there are Crown servants in the GoCo, who will they be answerable to?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

As I have said, we have a continuing dialogue with the Americans to ensure that they are comfortable with the proposals. At this point, I can honestly tell the hon. Gentleman that no red lines have emerged from the discussions. If red lines emerge, we will ensure that the Americans are satisfied in a way that will allow us to proceed without disrupting our relationship with them. That is an extremely important part of the arrangement. In the event that we hit a red line—I am being hypothetical here—or if there is something that causes the Americans particular concern, we will look at the scope of the GoCo and seek, if necessary, to remove it.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

The very strange situation is that the Minister proposes to give the GoCo responsibility, for example, for the contract for the nuclear deterrent in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness, but he has not yet negotiated the agreements with the Americans. I would have thought that that was a fundamental thing to do before the Bill is enacted. Can he tell the Committee—either now or in writing later—which areas have been discussed so far, and which still need to be covered? Will he also answer my question about who Crown civil servants in the GoCo will be answerable to—the GoCo management or the MOD?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I am not going to commit to giving the hon. Gentleman a list of issues that are being discussed. This is an ongoing process in parallel with the legislative process and the competition to run the GoCo. The intention is to make decisions in the spring.

Perhaps I should have started with this reassurance, which was mentioned by me and others Government Members in the oral evidence sessions. We are engaged in discussions today on an enabling legislative process, which is parallel to a commercial competition to identify the best proposal for a GoCo, while at the same time looking at an enhanced DE&S within the public sector. Given the competition timetable, it will be only in the spring of next year that we will be clear about the benefits and costs of undertaking a GoCo following the competition and be able to compare it with DE&S-plus. That will be the point at which we decide which route to go down. It is not appropriate to negotiate contracts with international partners at this stage, until we know which route we will go down.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I am sorry to say that this is not about contracts negotiations at all. It is actually about getting fundamental agreement with our closest allies on one of the most strategic, important pieces of our defence, the nuclear deterrent, to ensure that it is content on particular matters. The idea that the Bill is being brought forward without that is remarkable. I again challenge the Minister to publish the areas examined so far, the outstanding areas, and whether there have been any objections from the Americans. I am sure that there are some people in the United States who will be very concerned if some of the responsibility is given to a private sector organisation. Will the Minister also answer the point about Crown civil servants?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

Crown civil servants have a dual reporting line. While they are on secondment to DE&S today they report through the reporting line in DE&S. They also have a military chain of command. In the event of their operating on secondment within a GoCo, there would be a rather harder dual reporting line than the current dotted line. While DE&S is within the MOD, the military chain of command can take place.

As far as discussions with the Americans are concerned, it was made clear in the oral evidence sessions that there is continuous dialogue, with periodic meetings and more regular teleconferences, between the teams in the UK and the US, in which the whole range of relationships we have, both contractual and in treaty with the US, are discussed. It is not appropriate to give a running commentary on how that is going. I have already reassured the hon. Gentleman that no red lines have been raised that have not been dealt with by the Americans so far. It is obviously critical in relation to the nuclear deterrent that the Americans are content with the arrangements put in place. If they were not content, the matter would be taken out of scope of the GoCo.

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

May I thank my hon. Friend for his answers? As he is aware, I represent Devonport, which is a nuclear licensed dockyard. He has talked eloquently of how nuclear activities will be a responsibility of the GoCo. However, will the GoCo also be responsible for developing the nuclear engineering skills base for defence? He might not be able to answer that now but it will be fine for him to write to me. Hon. Members may be aware that there is some concern that nuclear engineers are likely to be drawn to Hinkley Point C when that is in place. I need to ensure that we maintain that important skills base in my constituency.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I think I can give some reassurance to my hon. Friend straightaway. Each entity engaged in both civil and military nuclear activity in the country has responsibility for ensuring that it has sufficiently qualified personnel. That applies within the military sphere through the Atomic Weapons Establishment, which is already in a GoCo. It applies in each of the services that have responsibility for our deterrent. It applies within DE&S at present where we are undertaking the procurement of nuclear equipment, and that will not change. Each organisation will continue to be required to maintain capability relevant to the activity that it is undertaking. It also applies to all the companies supporting the nuclear activity, including the company that is the largest employer in the constituency of the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness.

John Woodcock (Labour, Barrow and Furness)

I thank the Minister for giving way again; he is being generous with his time. The important point made by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport raises a wider issue about the defence industrial base. The Government have—some would say not before time—brought out a growth strategy that talks about the skills issue and the need to maintain the base. Nothing in the Bill will direct the GoCo to have regard to the promotion of the UK’s industrial base, including skills. Does that concern the Minister, and is he willing to consider it?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I have to get on to my prepared remarks on the amendments tabled by the Opposition, because many of the points that have been made are addressed in them. On the hon. Gentleman’s point about skills, I am pleased that he welcomes the defence growth partnership report, which was published last month. Skills are one of the core pillars that the industry and the Government are looking to develop together in the defence industry. Responsibility for policy—the defence growth partnership is a policy matter, as far as the MOD is concerned—will reside with the MOD. In engaging with its agent the DE&S, whether in a GoCo or as DE&S-plus, the MOD can and will direct the agent to have regard to various policy initiatives, whether those are on skills, exports or SME engagement. That will be a fundamental part of the relationship the MOD will have with the agent. It does not need to be legislated for, which is why it is not specifically referred to in the Bill.

Heather Wheeler (Conservative, South Derbyshire)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I am pleased to hear the Minister’s last statement, because manufacturing jobs, particularly nuclear energy jobs, are absolutely key going forward. We have a superb growth fund recovery area, and his reiteration that future jobs and specifications will take the manufacturing base of our country into account is important to the midlands, so I thank him very much.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who advocates her constituency interest eloquently. She endorses the genuine concern expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport. The advent of a renewed civil nuclear build programme will undoubtedly place some additional pressure on securing suitably qualified people within the military sphere and the defence industry that supports it.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Will the Minister give way?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I would like to move on. I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that this be his last intervention on this subject.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

The answer to the question asked by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport is no, because there is no requirement to ensure local provision of labour in the GoCo contract. I accept that the GoCo may take regard of the provided general Government policy, but if the GoCo has a cost driver and it can get labour or expertise cheaper elsewhere, there is nothing to prevent it from doing that. Why does the Minister not ensure through the Bill that skills that are important to the constituencies of the hon. Members for South Derbyshire and for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness—as well as to defence contractors more broadly—are protected? That is the only time he will have the power to determine that.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The hon. Gentleman, unusually, is wrong. The time at which the Ministry of Defence will have influence over the GoCo contractor, if that is the route we go down, is during the negotiation of the contract, not during the determination of the Bill. The relationship between policy and execution will continuously evolve. Policies change and, dare I say it, Governments change. They may bring in different policies. It is not appropriate to put policy directives into the Bill given that they may change substantially over a period of time. We are trying to set a framework for a relationship between the MOD and its procurement arm that will endure beyond the changes of Government, if we get the support of the Opposition. Hopefully that will be done on a consensual basis, which is clearly what the industry is looking for. It is not appropriate to introduce policy aspects into the Bill.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Is the Minister telling the Committee that once the contract is negotiated, there will be an onus on the GoCo contractor to protect local skills and ensure that skills are maintained in the UK? That is very different from what he said 10 minutes ago when he told us that there would be a general duty to provide enough skills for the work force. They could come from anywhere.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The contract between the MOD and the GoCo will include provisions in certain specific areas; where there is a requirement to have a skill, it will cover that requirement. That is not, generally speaking, the case across industry. If, for example, nuclear safety is in the scope of the Bill, there will be a requirement to ensure that the standards set for maintaining nuclear safety are met.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

That is not the question that I asked.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The hon. Gentleman’s question was intended to push me towards encouraging the GoCo contractor to commit to UK jobs for individual contracts for individual procurements. That is not something that the Government believe we should be doing. Indeed, in the White Paper that was published 18 months ago, we explicitly discussed the concept of open competition as being the best way to ensure that we have a defence industry that is fit for purpose and can compete internationally. It should not have Government diktat telling it which jobs need to be put in place and where.

I shall try to make a bit of progress, because we are straying way beyond the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View. It is important that we discuss the clause as a whole and those amendments. Clause 1 is the key enabling clause that will allow the Secretary of State to contract with the company for the provision of defence procurement services, should that be the decision that we take when comparing that with the public sector comparator. It is also the clause on which most of the rest of part 1 hangs. The amendments have highlighted some important issues, and the hon. Lady has clearly and comprehensively covered the reasoning behind them.

Before I respond in detail to the points raised and go through the specific amendments, it might be helpful if I set out some of our thinking behind the clause and what it is intended to achieve. That may assist in putting our consideration of the amendments in a wider context. Clause 1 allows the Ministry of Defence to enter into a contract with a public company to provide defence procurement services in future, and for that company to acquire rights over premises currently used by the DE&S organisation and become the employer of the existing DE&S staff.

The clause is drafted to accommodate a one or two-company GoCo structure. The contracting model in consideration for the first nine-year term is a two-company structure, with the contracting entity consisting of a management company and an operating company. The operating company will become the employer of the existing DE&S staff and will deliver the defence procurement services contract. The management company and the operating company will be public companies, but in this context that does not mean a company whose shares are quoted on the stock exchange. In the case of the management company, its shares will be held by its parent companies. In the case of the operating company, the shares will be held by the management company for the duration of the contract but, in accordance with the terms of its articles of association, they must be surrendered to the Ministry of Defence on expiry or termination of the contract, at no cost to the Ministry of Defence.

Although there is no mention in the clause of a GoCo, the clause is there to enable the Secretary of State to contract out defence procurement services to a GoCo in the future, should that be the way forward that is agreed next summer once the commercial negotiations are concluded and the comparison with the DE&S-plus option is complete. We have been clear that our preferred option is the GoCo, because we believe that it will deliver the step change needed in freedoms and commercial incentives to overcome the problems with defence procurement that have plagued successive Governments. However, we have also been clear that that option must be rigorously tested against a public sector comparator and must take into account the outcome of the commercial negotiations that are currently under way.

Clause 1 is largely an enabling clause, and it mirrors a similar provision in section 1 of the Atomic Weapons Establishment Act 1991—the AWE is also a GoCo. I would like to draw the Committee’s attention to the scale of the activity within DE&S. If it were to become a GoCo alongside the other substantial GoCos that are out there, it is important to recognise that, because the GoCo would be an agent of the MOD, the operating cost of the GoCo and the personnel involved would essentially be transferred into it. That is the relevant size criterion. The programme is being managed on behalf of the MOD, but its whole size would not be transferred into the GoCo, just the management.

If we compare the proposed two phases of transfer of the GoCo, we are talking in the first phase about transferring some 3,800 people with an operating cost and capital spend of less than £400 million. In the second phase, once all the domains have transferred, we will be transferring some 9,000 people with a cost of under £1 billion. That is directly comparable to the scale of the AWE, which has some 6,500 staff and contractors and an operating cost and capital spend of £850 million a year. It is also smaller than, for example, Sellafield, which has about 10,000 employees and some £1.6 billion of operating costs. The idea that the scale of transfer is unprecedented is, I think, a misapprehension. I wanted to put that on the record.

Thomas Docherty (Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife)

The Minister mentioned Sellafield. It is probably fair to say that anyone who is at all familiar with the west Cumbrian situation would say that it is not exactly going well. Does the Minister not think that it would be better to stop and talk to the Department of Energy and Climate Change about learning the lessons before proceeding with this type of transfer?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I am not suggesting that Sellafield is a model for this transfer; I was just giving a comparison of the scale of activity in Sellafield compared with the AWE or the proposed GoCo. They are of similar scale.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Sellafield is not a good comparison because it is a single contract dealing with two things, mainly decommissioning. Here, we are talking about a large number of contracts with a large number of suppliers. Looking at things just in terms of scale is not the way to do it—the complexity of the procurement is what is important. I must also say that if the Minister wants to use Sellafield as an example, he should look at some of the headlines that have appeared in the west Cumbrian press in the past few weeks about executives using taxis to get their cats home from the Sellafield site.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I am going to move on.

The Secretary of State has the power to enter into a contract with a GoCo using common law powers, but we believe that the scale of what is proposed in both money and people and the important nature of the work that DE&S undertakes, as the hon. Member for North Durham reminded us, are such that it would be appropriate for Parliament to have the opportunity to scrutinise and agree the proposals through specific legislation. An important and hopefully long-lasting change such as this should be done with the consensus of all parties and with the express approval of Parliament. It is right that we chose that approach. Clause 1 is the main provision for that debate and we have already had a wide-ranging discussion about some of its implications. I look forward to moving this matter forward.

The clause also covers arrangements for the transfer of procurement services once the initial, and any subsequent, contract comes to an end. It allows for the transfer of DE&S services to the GoCo in a phased way. The first part of DE&S to transfer to the GoCo will be the maritime area, as we discussed, together with some key support services.

The clause also provides the basis on which the other provisions in part 1 work. For example, the exemptions in schedule 1 apply to premises used by a contractor under the arrangements in the clause. The clause also includes many of the definitions used in part 1. The hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View said that her amendment, which seeks to exempt some phrases, was tabled to get a debate going; I take it that she is therefore unlikely to press it to a vote. [Interruption.] She has acknowledged that, so I am pleased to say that I will not therefore go into any great detail on the amendment—that will be of relief to the whole Committee.

However, the hon. Lady did raise some questions about the use of property. It is important to set the record straight here. Although the GoCo will be given the right to use existing DE&S property, the ownership of the assets will not change. Her concern was that the office premises at Abbey Wood, for example—when built, I think it was the largest office complex in Europe—might become surplus to requirements and be sold for the benefit of the GoCo operators.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

Perhaps I was not entirely clear. My concern was not that a GoCo could sell those properties, but that they could be used for purposes that, technically, are defence purposes, but that might not be those of the MOD. Under the terms of the Bill, is it feasible that, if a GoCo could not meet the running costs and wanted to save money—Abbey Wood is just a hypothetical example—it could shift staff from one building to another, and the MOD would be left with an empty building to monitor?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

Our intention is that all the premises currently occupied by DE&S staff, which are in scope, will be made available to a GoCo operator on a contractual basis.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

I thank the Minister for giving way again and bearing with me. He says that the buildings and premises will be made available to the GoCo, but technically it does not have to use them. Therefore, in the worst case scenario whereby a GoCo decides that it will move everybody out—of Abbey Wood, for example—and stick them elsewhere, there would be a major socio-economic impact on the towns and cities around any such premises. Is the contract between the Government and the GoCo not likely to state that if that is to happen, we expect to understand that and to be consulted fully before the decision is taken? That could be a cost-saving measure on the GoCo’s part.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

It is difficult to foresee precisely what might happen over the duration of the nine-year contract. There will be a lease, in relation to occupation of the property, which will be a conventional lease as one would expect to find in the civil sector, under which the tenant will be responsible for its obligations. Those might include repair obligations for the properties and so on. In the event that the GoCo operator decided that it did not wish to continue to operate in certain facilities—because it has some of its own nearby, or because the activity ceases to be relevant—if it wishes to release itself from its obligations under the lease, it will have to go through that lease’s termination arrangements in precisely the same way that would apply in the commercial world. The contract that will be entered into will have some clear clauses in relation to the use of premises, the cost of using those premises, and the requirement to negotiate with the MOD in the event that the operator wishes to relieve itself of those obligations, because the MOD will continue to be the landlord. That relationship will be managed as it is now—through the Defence Infrastructure Organisation, which is within the MOD.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

In terms of the competition for the GoCo provider, part of the contract is going to say, “You must take on a lease of Abbey Wood.” Will the MOD stipulate the amount right at the beginning? Otherwise, how will potential competitors for GoCo be able to draw up their costings?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

We are not seeking to introduce the kind of disruption that the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View was fearful of—encouraging the GoCo operator to identify alternative premises. As I said earlier, we are expecting GoCo operators, as part of the competition, to assume that they are taking on all our existing premises as identified. The price of occupation will form part of the negotiation over the fee arrangements between the MOD and the GoCo operator. There will be termination clauses, penalties and so on within the lease contract in the normal way.

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)

How are we expecting the commercialised operator of the enterprise to make any sort of cost savings if we are going to tell them specifically where they have to carry out their business from?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The operating costs of the GoCo are some 8% of the total contract value that the operator will be managing. We are looking for savings to come primarily from greater efficiencies in managing the procurement process for the underlying equipment, rather than looking to extract large savings out of the operating costs of the DE&S itself. Specific efficiencies may arise, and some of that might come in a property area, but we are not anticipating that that would make a major contribution to the efficiencies and savings.

The same applies to the issue of personnel raised by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View. There may be personnel changes; we are currently seeking to fill quite a substantial number of vacancies in DE&S. There is a regular turnover of staff. During the period of a nine-year contract, there may well be quite a significant turnover of staff. However, the issue is not about jobs; it is about upskilling the organisation, rather than seeking to make savings through greater efficiencies either in jobs or in premises, other than those that are appropriate and as agreed with the MOD.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

The GoCo operator, as an organisation that has to make a profit, will be looking for efficiencies. One of those efficiencies will obviously be headcount, because in any organisation, people are expensive. Throughout the lifetime of the contract, if the GoCo decides, for example, that it can make efficiencies in terms of numbers of people, it will therefore not need the office space as outlined. What assurance can the Minister give that the MOD will not be left with part of the DE&S site in Abbey Wood to pick up?

Also, will the Minister return to my earlier question? When the competition is launched, will there be a fixed price that each competitor has to meet in terms of costs—for example, the rent of Abbey Wood and other buildings?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

On the first point, if a GoCo contractor wants to change the space that they are contracted to occupy, it will need to make a business case to the MOD, and the MOD will have the right to say, “You have a contractual obligation. If we are unhappy about you moving out, you cannot do it.” We will have a right of veto over continued occupation in the duration of the contract. That does not mean to say that if we thought that the business case made sense, we would be encouraging them to do so. Given how the fee arrangement will work, it will be gain share, pain share, so in the event that the contractor is able to deliver the services more cheaply, the MOD will clearly benefit, which will be an important factor in the business case.

As for the question about the contract terms specifying penalties for extraction from lease obligations, I cannot answer at this point. We are not anywhere near that level of detail in our discussions. The negotiation around the gain share, pain share performance fee is in the next stages of discussion—we are looking to get proposals in November, and we will then be negotiating through until March, when the final proposals will emerge. We will discuss precisely how the fee arrangements work only in those later negotiations. The hon. Member for North Durham has made an interesting point, so we will feed it into those discussions and can then decide on the appropriateness of isolating that as part of the fee.

Amendment 2 covers much of what we have just been discussing. I support the intent behind it, but it is not required. As I tried to identify earlier, the issue will be in effect—and better—addressed in the contract between the GoCo and the MOD, case by case in the individual leases or agreements, and subject to change through business cases put to the MOD for approval.

The premises and property occupied by the GoCo will remain the property of their existing owners, which in the vast majority of cases is the Ministry of Defence, although in a small number we are a tenant. The GoCo’s rights and obligations in respect to using those assets will be agreed with the MOD and set out in the GoCo contract and the relevant lease or agreement. That will include conditions on maintenance and upkeep, as is usual in a commercial contract or lease. Maintaining that flexibility through the contract, rather than through statute, makes sense. I hope therefore that amendments 1 and 2 will not be pressed by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View.

The purpose of amendments 3 and 4 is twofold. First, they seek to put in place additional security arrangements should the contractor be a non-UK company. Secondly, they seek to disqualify from the directorship of the GoCo any individual who is involved in the provision of defence equipment or services in any other company in the defence industry. I reassure the Committee that, although we have concluded that the amendments are not required, it is because extensive, effective checks and balances are already in place, or will be put in place, within the GoCo contract, so the risks in question are already being effectively managed through more appropriate means.

The amendments also seek to ensure that the GoCo cannot take advantage of its privileged position to exert influence over British defence interests and to prevent the company’s directors—whether or not UK registered—from having conflicting interests in other defence companies.

Amendment 3 seeks to make it necessary for the GoCo to include a number of mandatory obligations on the contractor. The first requires that non-UK companies must establish “special security arrangements” for the operation of the contract. Amendment 4 provides a definition of such arrangements as

“a proxy board or special security agreement set up to prevent foreign influence over British defence interests”,

which is fairly imprecise. The second and third obligations seek to disqualify from appointment to the GoCo directors who have conflicts of interests, because they are also directors of or have financial interests in other defence companies. For example, that would mean that an executive director of BAE Systems could not hold a directorship within any company associated with the GoCo.

The MOD governor will monitor any changes to share ownership and directorship to identify any major changes that might introduce conflicts of interest over the duration of the contract. Ultimately, should it be required, the MOD will retain and be able to use appropriate change of control provisions within the articles of association—at the operating company level in a two-company structure. The contract between the MOD and the management company would contain similar provisions. I do not think the amendments are necessary, as the issues are already covered by provisions in the anticipated contractual documentation.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Will it be possible for someone to be a director of the GoCo and, for example, to have major non-defence interests in parts of the former Soviet Union or China?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I am intrigued that the hon. Gentleman raises the “reds under the bed” analogy, which was also raised yesterday in the Financial Times by his former boss, who highlighted his concern that the business might be acquired by either Russian or Chinese interests. It beggars belief that such a suggestion is taken seriously by Her Majesty’s Opposition, in particular by individuals who have had responsibility for defence. To suggest that this Government or this MOD would not protect themselves against nations seeking to acquire our procurement agency indicates that the Opposition have not been reading the Bill very carefully.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I am talking not about nations but individuals. Will the Minister explain how he would stop somebody with major interests in, for example, China or parts of the former Soviet Union—not a direct agent of their Government but having close relations with them—from being a director here or owning any part of the GoCo, at the beginning, or later if they took over one of the companies that formed part of the GoCo?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

When we started this process, we set in train a series of protections of confidentiality and conflicts of interest. Each entity that registers interest in being considered as a bidder for the GoCo first had to enter into a bid participation agreement. The bid participation agreement had confidentiality clauses and declarations of perceived conflicts of interest within it. Any party that was prepared to enter into a bid participation agreement but was not deemed by us to be appropriate was ruled out at that stage.

Anybody who had signed the bid participation agreement then had to undertake a pre-qualification questionnaire and respond to questions about a whole host of things, including issues such as their security clearances and so on. Any individual who is to become a director of a GoCo would need to pass the security vetting arrangements that we have in this country. It is extremely unlikely that the sort of individuals that the hon. Member for North Durham raises as a spectre would pass British security vetting procedures.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

What would happen, for example, if Serco were taken over or if an entity from China or the former Soviet Union were to buy a whole slug of shares or the entire company? Is there anything in the contract to stop either a sovereign wealth fund or something else taking over one of the existing companies?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

That is a much more serious concern and a very relevant one. I am pleased to be able to confirm to the hon. Gentleman that, absolutely, yes there is. There will be change of control provisions in the contract, which will give the MOD the right to approve any changes of control in the ownership of the management company. There is, within the operating company, a special share which requires the MOD’s approval to vote in favour of any suggestion of changes in the ownership of the operating company by the management company.

Through the articles of association of the companies, through the contract between the MOD and the contractor, and through our security vetting procedures and all the paraphernalia that apply within military procurement, we think we have a very tight grip on ensuring that we are dealing, as the MOD, with an entity that is appropriately owned and controlled.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

But what will happen if an individual or a sovereign wealth fund does not take control of a company such as Serco but takes a substantial part of it? It could have an influence over that company not by having direct control of some 50% of the shares but by having a major influence within it. How will the MOD deal with that situation? In such circumstances, would the contract be severed? If so, what compensation would be payable to the contractor with the GoCo?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

There are arrangements that will preclude the passage of information from one tier to its parent tier. In terms of protecting confidential information available to the operating company, there are clear procedures to prevent the piercing of the corporate veil, if we like.

As for influence on the company, it is fair to say that there is a risk with regard to small minority shareholdings in public companies owned by people who do not have a direct relationship with the MOD. That is a risk that the Government take every day in entering contracts with public companies. In this case, we are talking about consortia of very substantial companies. We have a direct say as to whether they have a shareholding in the management company and therefore have influence over the operating company. The management company itself will be owned by a consortium. A minority stake in one member of a consortium would have little influence over the management company itself and would have no influence directly over the operating company.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I would argue that this situation is different because we are dealing with national security. There is nothing at all to stop the sovereign wealth fund of China from buying, say, 25%, 30% or 40% of Serco, if it was part of the successful bidder for the GoCo.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

If the MOD perceived there to be any potential threat to national security interests through the GoCo, we would be able, through the contract, to take action to prevent the party concerned from continuing to be a shareholder in the management company. There have been changes in ownership of the participants in the Atomic Weapons Establishment GoCo.

We will have provisions in the contract for the transfer of interests. It is possible that individual companies will wish to cease to continue with the relationship during the duration of the contract. We do not want to put a GoCo into a position where it fails in the event of one shareholder being unable to continue or indeed becoming part of a group that is undesirable. We will have change of control provisions that will apply within the contracts with the management company. The hon. Gentleman’s concern about small shareholdings is not something that it would be reasonable for us to seek to impose on the major groups that we are talking to.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I am not talking about a small group. Let us say that 40% or 45% of Serco is taken over by, for example, the Chinese sovereign wealth fund. What percentage of one of those companies would the Minister deem to be concerning enough that that company would no longer be seen as a credible part of the GoCo? Should such a case occur, what would be the compensation arrangements for the company?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The example that the hon. Gentleman cites would trigger one of the change of control provisions within the contract. [ Interruption. ] I cannot give him a figure, because I have not negotiated that aspect of the contract.

The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point. I am happy to take it away and perhaps to write to him during the passage of the Bill to give him a little more comfort that the change of control provisions will be sufficient. We have the ability to declare a shareholder in the management company an inappropriate shareholder, and the termination arrangements would then require the consortium either to absorb those shares among existing members or to bring another party into the consortium.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I thank the Minister for that, and I look forward to his explanation in writing. What about directors of the GoCo? The Bill clearly lays it down that directors cannot have directorships in competitor defence companies, but what would happen if someone had a directorship in several Russian or Chinese companies that had nothing to do with defence? Would that be allowable under the procedure?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The individual directors of the GoCo will be subject to vetting procedures and will need to identify any conflicts of interest that they have. If any of those are deemed unsuitable by the Ministry of Defence, they will not be considered suitable individuals to be appointed directors of the company.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Would the MOD deem it inappropriate for a director of the GoCo also to be a director of a Chinese or Russian company, or a company about which we as a nation felt uncomfortable?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I have already answered that question. They would be subject to British security vetting procedures, and in those circumstances they would be most unlikely to pass those procedures.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Will the MOD have a list of countries in which people cannot be directors if they are to be a director of a GoCo? China is an obvious one. There are many Chinese companies with UK directors. Will there be a prescriptive list of countries, or what?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The hon. Gentleman, having been a Defence Minister, has greater understanding than perhaps most members of this Committee of how British security vetting processes work. We will not be publishing a list of countries regarded as inappropriate, not least because countries change regimes, and one regime may be more acceptable than another. It is an iterative process that changes all the time. He has made a good point, which I thank him for raising. As I said, I will address it in writing.

I will expand a little more on how we intend to manage conflict of interest issues; it is an integral part of the matériel strategy commercial process. I have touched on the pre-qualification questionnaire, in which potential bidders were required to declare any perceived potential or actual conflicts of interest, along with proposals for how they would manage them. In addition to providing information regarding existing or future contracts with the MOD, potential bidders were also required to declare any personal conflicts of interest.

All declared conflicts of interest were reviewed and, if necessary, action was required to be taken before any company could proceed to the procurement phase. Those companies that successfully qualified to proceed to the procurement phase were required to enter into a bid participation agreement, as I said, which detailed the MOD’s requirements for management of conflicts of interests and included an initial list of all conflicts of interest and how the MOD expected them to be managed. Those lists were particular to the individual bidder.

The intention was that the list would become a live document subject to ongoing review that would ultimately be enshrined in the GoCo contract if that bidder were the successful contractor. Within the MOD, all project branches are aware of the companies involved in the GoCo procurement. If they have any concerns about potential areas of conflict, they are to consult the MOD matériel strategy commercial team for guidance before proceeding. Any individual company considered to have unmanageable conflicts of interest may be asked to remove itself from the competition, or from any existing contract that may be the cause of the conflict. As the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View mentioned, one non-executive director of a contractor in one of the bidding consortia resigned his directorship, as he was an executive director of a large defence contractor to the MOD. That has demonstrated that our process in managing real or perceived conflicts of interest in this area is working.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

The Minister refers to individuals, but what about companies? Serco is an obvious example: it has substantial contracts with the MOD, and he said that they could be deemed unmanageable. How will the assessment be done in concluding that Serco, which does a host of things for the MOD, is also a fit person to be part of the consortium?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I was referring to individual bidding companies as well as to individual directors. The company that the hon. Gentleman mentioned has the largest number and value of contracts with the MOD of those involved in the consortium. Most are in the area of facilities management, rather than procurement itself. That clearly has some procurement features to it, but the company is not actively engaged in much equipment procurement. It is a shareholder in the AWE, but its role is mostly managing the physical facilities.

At this point, any procurements involving Serco within the MOD will continue, and in the event of other Departments deciding that the company should not receive new Government contracts for a period, it would be for the bidding consortium to decide how to deal with that if it withdrew or was compelled to withdraw from the competition.

On the perception of conflict for existing Serco contracts, we believe that we have addressed the issue appropriately. It would be fair to assume that, in the event of any of the bidding contactors being successful members of a consortium that would run GoCo, conflicts of interest would become much more significant for any new contracts thereafter. That is a reason why, for example, one of the companies that is advising the MOD decided not to bid. Jacobs acts as our specialist adviser on delivery, and it took the view that it would not be able to compete for other business in future if it were a shareholder in a consortium, so it decided not to do so. I anticipate that for any successful bidder—unless the conflicts could be clearly identified and managed and so long as, if it bid for another contract, it had no involvement in the decision-making around that contract—such considerations will have an impact on its willingness to bid for substantial contracts in future and as to the appropriateness of so doing.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I am grateful for that. Will the Minister refer to the contracts that some parts of the consortium may have with other Governments around the world? Are there any situations in which companies will be debarred because they hold contracts with certain nations to supply certain defence or defence-related equipment or facilities?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I am hesitating to think of any that might cause difficulty. Does the hon. Gentleman have something specific in mind?

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Serco does extensive work around the globe, including in the middle east, and could be competing for work in countries we would deem to be security risks. Likewise, an American part of the consortium could be deemed to have a conflict of interest because it had access to information that would help its procurement with the United States Government.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I think that the hon. Gentleman is concerned about conflicts of interest being used to the commercial advantage of members who are shareholders in the consortium. That is a concern. It is standard practice for many of the professional services firms, project managers and contractors interested in the opportunity to have Chinese walls, to use a rather unfortunate term in this context.

Thomas Docherty (Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife)

Firewalls.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

Firewalls. I thank the hon. Gentleman; that is better. They have firewalls to separate teams working on a project where there might be a risk of information leaking to a team working for another client and of breaching commercial or national security considerations. Those firewalls will be established and set up. That is part of the purpose: to ensure that conflicts of interest that might be perceived or arise in future are properly managed. Considerable effort is being made to ensure that conflicts of interest are identified and appropriate management arrangements are put around them, so they do not give rise to the problems the hon. Member for North Durham fears.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

On conflicts around security, will there also be safeguards around the consortium’s procurement strategy, particularly with regard to computer systems—I hate to come back to China—so as to debar procurement of services and supplies from organisations that we would deem a security risk?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The MOD is the capabilities setter, so the MOD and its commands will set out requirements. One of its habitual requirements is not to procure from organisations that might pose a security risk. There will be continuous MOD oversight of the procurements. In the event that the DE&S contractor, whether a GoCo or not, suggests inviting bids from particular companies that might be known or feared to have a problem, it would be down to the capabilities setter within the MOD or command to say it would rather that company was not approached.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I was not thinking about actual programmes; I was thinking about IT and other systems that the GoCo might use in its daily work. A lot of thought at DE&S has gone into protecting computer systems, because we know that is an area prone to hacking and industrial espionage. Will it be clear from the outset of the contract that the GoCo will use the same standards as the MOD and others for computer software and security systems for managing its contract?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

That comes back to the issue of compliance with MOD or overriding Government policy. It will absolutely be the case that the GoCo will need to act in accordance with Government or MOD policy on all its procurement. That applies to IT systems just as it does to anything else. There is no question but that that would need to be approved by the MOD before the contract was let.

I will return to the amendment. I was talking about the system of handling conflicts of interest through procurement. The invitation to negotiate, which went out to the groups once they had formed into consortia earlier this summer, required both the management company and the operating company of the proposed GoCo to be UK-registered companies. That will ensure that any GoCo contractor will be required to comply with UK legislation, including the obligation to pay UK tax. The GoCo will also be required to conduct its business so that the centre of main interest of the operating company is deemed to be in the UK.

Management of information considered to be commercially sensitive or security-classified will be subject to stringent conditions under the GoCo contract. Such conditions will include, but may not be limited to, restrictions on the extent of information that can be shared between the operating company and the management company, and between the management company and their respective parent companies; I touched on that earlier. These types of restrictions are commonly used by DE&S on MOD contracts when the parent company is not based in the UK.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I hear what the Minister says about the company being UK-registered, but why do we not require, as US defence contracts do, a stand-alone, separate board that forms—I am not going to say a Chinese wall—a firewall and is separate? BAE Systems America’s board is separate from the UK board, for example. Why have the Government not insisted on that when planning the structure of boards?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

That is where the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View, was trying to drive the Bill—towards establishing special security arrangements, such as a proxy board. The matter was examined and we concluded that it would not be necessary, as we have enough protection in the Bill already.

Of course, we do not know at this point the nationalities of the companies that will be running the GoCo. As it happens, each consortium has UK and US contractors. When we set up the process, we were unsure about whether other nations would get involved and give us more of a problem, but we are content that we do not need such a measure. Part of the reason is that the GoCo will be required to comply with Joint Services Publication 440 on security and to meet all other security requirements, such as having personnel cleared to the appropriate level. That would mean, for example, that UK-eyes-only personnel worked on projects deemed by the MOD to require that level of national security. Both the operating and management companies will be required to hold list X approvals to ensure that only those individuals with appropriate security clearances gain access to classified information. Those elements of doing business with the MOD provide sufficient protection; they allow UK-eyes-only personnel to be employed through the GoCo company chain and avoid the need for a proxy board structure.

Before moving on to amendment 5, I want to make some points about the draft articles of association for the GoCo, which we have not yet discussed. The articles will give the Government a special share in the operating company and, along with the Government’s provisions in the draft contract, state that the operating company cannot be taken over without the MOD’s express authority. MOD approval is also required before the GoCo contract can be assigned or novated. One of the grounds on which such authority could reasonably be refused is national security. The articles of association also specify that, at all times, at least one out of the chief executive and the chairman of the operating company’s board must be British. The MOD will be able to veto an appointment that would leave the board with neither of those posts held by a British national. As a fall-back, should the need arise, the MOD will also have the power to remove the chief executive officer of the operating company. Combined, those measures are sufficient to obviate the need to pursue a proxy board or special security arrangements, as proposed in amendment 4.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Would it be possible, if the MOD was content, for an American company to take over the GoCo?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

It would be possible, if the MOD was content, for an American company to take over, but the American company would have to employ UK-eyes-only personnel and would have to have either a UK chairman or a UK chief executive. We commonly source equipment from American companies in our procurement. That includes some of the most sensitive equipment, such as the F-35, which the hon. Gentleman mentioned earlier.

Amendment 5 would prevent the Secretary of State commencing the establishment and operation of a GoCo under part 1 of the Bill until they have published guidance on the contract’s operation. In particular, the amendment proposes that that guidance should include the system by which available defence contracts will be advertised to potential bidders, how a GoCo will procure, and how it will report annually against progress on an export strategy.

The amendment would address concerns expressed during the oral evidence sessions about a possible lack of visibility regarding how the contract will work and how defence contracts will be placed, and about ensuring that the new GoCo pays sufficient regard to wider defence industrial policy issues, such as the exportability of equipment or the role of small and medium-sized enterprises. There was concern that the GoCo would be focused solely on delivering equipment more cheaply and would not have to take into account other aspects of our industrial policy.

Our intention is that the GoCo acts as the agent of the Secretary of State when contracting for Defence Equipment and Support. The service commands and the MOD will maintain their capability-setting and policy-setting roles, so will require the GoCo to procure to meet both those objectives.

On advertising contracts, the treaty on the functioning of the European Union, the Public Contracts Regulations 2006 and the Defence and Security Public Contracts Regulations 2011 will still apply in the same manner that they do today. That includes the advertising of contracts in the Official Journal of the European Union where required. Further, the MOD commercial policy on advertising defence contracts will also continue to apply. Those adverts currently appear on Contracts Finder and gov.uk websites. It is to be remembered that any contract to deliver defence equipment, support, logistics and services will be entered into by the GoCo as the MOD’s agent, so the MOD will remain a counter-party to defence contracts.

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)

This is an enabling clause that enables the Secretary of State to proceed, at some future point, with the GoCo idea if he decides to do so. The GoCo will be a commercialised broker working on the Secretary of State’s behalf to procure services and manage projects. To what extent will the GoCo have an absolute monopoly in providing those brokerage services? The Minister just mentioned that the three forces will have their own expertise in setting their requirements. Would it be possible for them, if they were making a simple procurement, to bypass the new GoCo, thus saving an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy? At the other end of the spectrum, if there was some particularly specialised procurement to be made, would it be possible for the intelligent customer at the MOD to go to an alternative provider of procurement management or brokerage, if it appeared to make sense to do so?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

My hon. Friend makes a characteristically acute observation as regards whether the DE&S in a GoCo environment would face competition, or whether it would have an exclusive relationship. The fact is that there are some existing competing procurement agencies today—within Government, as it happens—from which the Government procure certain equipment. Most of that is commodity services. The Government Procurement Service, for example, which was established in premises in or around Liverpool, is undertaking procurement for the MOD for nine categories of basic commodity services, and that is increasing by a further 16 by the end of the year, so there are moves across Government to buy commodity equipment in bulk where it makes sense to do so. That might range from paper to fuel. We are seeking to consolidate motor fuel, but not necessarily aviation or marine fuel. Where we can agglomerate orders and thereby benefit from economies of scale, we are doing so. That kind of activity will continue.

As to the very specialist procurements, we would envisage that DE&S would continue to be the place of choice for the MOD to go to. Exclusively requiring it to do so would not be a sensible provision to put into a contract because it might help to ensure that the consortium remained alert to the potential for competition. The transfer of domains will be phased—maritime will be the first domain to transfer—so there will be an opportunity when the other domains come in for that to be competed, and that would be an appropriate way of ensuring that the consortia do the best for the MOD.

Thomas Docherty (Labour, Dunfermline and West Fife)

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way; he is being generous with his time. He has picked maritime, for reasons we all understand. Let us take the forthcoming contract on the Type 26 as an example. BAE still claims that the cost will be £350 million a hull, but if that rises to £450 million, will he think that the GoCo has been a failure?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The success or failure of the new procurement arrangements that we enter into will be determined over a period of time. My measure will be whether we are able to deliver the equipment that our armed forces need on budget and on time in a more efficient way than we do at present. I am afraid I will not be drawn further down that route, as I need to make some progress.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West Fife raises an interesting point. Is the Minister saying that the GoCo will not have exclusivity over procurement? If that is the case, in what circumstances would the MOD procure outside the GoCo? In terms of drawing up the contract with the GoCo and preparing its bid, will that be spelled out clearly at the beginning?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

As the hon. Gentleman might recall from his time in the Department, the DE&S does not have an exclusive relationship at the moment with commands. They are able to purchase from sources other than DE&S; I have already mentioned some instances of that. This is not an exclusive relationship. However, the expectation is that the first port of call for equipment delivered through the equipment plan will be DE&S. It would be reasonable for the consortium bidders to expect that significant purchases of military equipment would be most likely to go through them.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

That is an interesting point. The Minister said that large equipment purchases are most likely to go through DE&S. It is not really clear how the contract will be drawn up. How specific will the contract be about the type of equipment and tasks that the GoCo will perform? There seem to be significant grey areas—flexible walls—which enable the services to dip in and out of GoCo, effectively. I am not sure that is particularly encouraging for the bidders.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

We are engaged with a number of procurement agencies. This particularly applies where we are buying large equipment in collaboration with other countries. The A400M transport fleet that will be joining us next year was procured through the Organisation for Joint Armament Co-operation, which is a European procurement agency. Our relationship with that agency is managed through DE&S.

This will be a matter of considering each contract when it comes up. We will determine with the GoCo the terms on which it participates in that contract. The expectation is that it will be the entity of choice and will have a preferred relationship with MOD commands.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

Will the GoCo be able to appeal decisions if it feels that it had previously delivered a particular product or service quite well, and yet for reasons unknown, a decision was taken not to allow it to take on a similar project in future? How exactly does that work?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The relationship with the GoCo is becoming more commercial—it will need to prove with quality of service that it is providing the service that the commands require.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Will that decision rest with the commands? What if, for example, a command requires a specific piece of equipment for an operation? For example, at one point we suddenly discovered that we needed a large number of quad bikes in Iraq. If the command felt it could get them cheaper elsewhere, could it do so without any reference to the GoCo? Coming back to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View, although some contracts might be small in nature, if there were a number of them, they could be quite large in monetary value. What would the GoCo be able to do to appeal against that?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The spectre that has arisen here is most unlikely to occur. The procurement for the MOD has to take place through all the paraphernalia of public procurement. The military will have people embedded in DE&S across all domains and activities. In the example the hon. Gentleman gave, it is most likely that a procurement for quad bikes would be set by the Army—perhaps the Royal Marines—which would then undertake that procurement. People who are in the business of supplying quad bikes would participate in that procurement exercise. The hon. Gentleman may be aware of other quad bike procurement entities out there that would wish to compete with DE&S, but I think that most unlikely.

We will have the ability to extract certain activities, as we are doing with the Government procurement service, to ensure that the taxpayer gets best value for money from what we spend on equipment serving our armed forces. That is the principle we will adopt, but the general expectation for bidding consortia is that they would be the entity that is used, although there might be specific occasions when they would not.

I will try to make some progress because we are coming to the end of the sitting and I know that the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View will want to wind up her observations before she decides whether to press any of the amendments to a vote. We have covered amendment 5, so I will turn to amendment 10, which would prohibit the sale of financial securities or shares in the GoCo if it is a publicly listed company. We had considerable discussion of this issue earlier, so I will confine my remarks to our intention to prohibit the GoCo from selling financial securities or shares through contractual provisions in the contract with the GoCo managing company and through the operating company’s articles of association. Such provisions should apply not just to the initial contract, but to any enduring contract or new arrangements that come into force.

The Government’s special share in the operating company will give specific rights, one of which is the approval of the change of any shareholding. Another is the right to take over the contract in the event of failure to deliver or the perception of a failure to deliver. The objective is to prevent an activity being undertaken by an entity that puts national security at risk. That will not and cannot happen if we exercise our controls properly. I therefore urge the hon. Lady not to press that amendment to a vote. I hope I have dealt with the issues that she raised.

Several hon. Members rose—

Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)

Order. It will not have escaped the notice of the Committee that I have allowed quite wide debate on the amendments, so it might be helpful if I make it clear now that I do not intend to have a separate clause stand part debate.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. The Minister’s remarks show that there are still many questions to be answered in relation to the GoCo. I have spoken to people in industry and in the military, and we are concerned that this enabling legislation is being put forward without the exact detail being worked out. Many of us are concerned about that.

We need to examine the background. The Minister said that there were two options, with a preference for the GoCo. We have heard a lot about the GoCo, but little about DE&S-plus. I understand that that is the preferred option being pushed by Mr Bernard Gray, although I accept there are people in the MOD who have concerns about it. My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View mentioned the report, which was reported in the press, that expressed concerns about the GoCo, and we need to see that before we conclude our consideration of the Bill. If we agree the provision, we are basically giving carte blanche to the Government to go ahead and make a fundamental change in how defence procurement is conducted in this country.

We cannot treat the procurement of vital defence equipment for the security of our nation in the same way as we would let a contract for a school, for example. I am not saying that schools are unimportant, but here we are talking about our national security. This morning’s debate has shown that we are not simply talking about the equipment for the men and women whom we expect to go into the front line to serve and fight on our behalf; as my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness said, there are important geopolitical and strategic issues such as the nuclear deterrent. Handing that process over to a private entity raises serious questions about not only national security but parliamentary scrutiny and the ability to deal with it once the contract is let.

No doubt Government Members will tell me that Bernard Gray’s report was commissioned by the previous Government. It was commissioned by John Hutton, now Lord Hutton. I was in the MOD at the time and I was sceptical. The report raised interesting points about how defence was procured. Partly through the championing of the former Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), it achieved the status of being the true, definitive reason for changing the system so that we do not have the cost overruns or problems we had in the past. I do not accept that.

The report was an interesting piece of work, although a bit naive in parts. It takes the view that simply setting budgets is the way forward. I was unable to be in Committee when Mr Gray gave evidence, but I have read the transcript. In pushing for the GoCo, his argument seemed to be that people could be paid more under it. I do not accept that.

Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)

I remind the Committee that with this we are discussing the following:

Amendment 2, in clause 1, page 1, line 10, after ‘DE&S’, insert

‘subject to conditions on maintenance and upkeep set by the Secretary of State,’.

Amendment 3, in clause 1, page 2, line 42, at end insert—

‘(7A) Arrangements mentioned in this section must include provision for contractual obligations to be placed on the company operating the contract for defence procurement services under subsection (2), specifically including provision to—

(a) require non-UK companies to establish special security arrangements for the operation of the contract;

(b) disqualify from the directorship of the company any individual who holds a directorship over any other company whose main business is in the manufacturing or provision of equipment, works or services for defence purposes and;

(c) disqualify from the directorship of the company any individual who holds financial securities in any other company whose main business is in the manufacturing or provision of equipment, works or services for defence purposes.’.

Amendment 5, in clause 1, page 2, line 42, at end insert—

‘(7A) Arrangements mentioned in this section may not be brought into force until the Secretary of State has published guidance on the operation of the contract, specifically including—

(a) the system by which available defence contracts shall be advertised to potential bidders, and;

(b) the responsibility of the company operating the contract under subsection (2) to produce and report annually against progress on an export strategy’.

Amendment 10, in clause 1, page 2, line 42, at end add—

‘(7A) Arrangements mentioned in this section must include provision for contractual obligations to be placed on the company operating the contract for defence procurement services under subsection (2); specifically including provision to prohibit the sale of financial securities in any publicly-listed company appointed under subsection (2) where such sale would result in a change of majority ownership.’.

Amendment 4, in clause 1, page 3, line 31, at end add—

‘“special security arrangements” means a proxy board or Special Security agreement set up to prevent foreign influence over British defence interests.’.

Clause stand part.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Welcome to the Chair, Mr Owen. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship.

Before the break, I was talking about Mr Bernard Gray, whose report concerns how we have got to where we are today with the GoCo. The two options are clearly the GoCo or DE&S-plus, although it is clear that the Government have put all their efforts into the GoCo not only as their preferred option, but in relation to the support given by Ministers and the Ministry of Defence. One does question the extent to which there will be a level playing field in assessing the two options.

We have to ask why the proposed GoCo is needed. Opposition Members agree that there is no question but that the procurement of defence equipment needs reform, but is such a radical and ill-conceived proposal as that of the GoCo necessary to achieve what we all want, which is that the equipment that our nation and, more importantly, our men and women on the front line rely on is not only procured efficiently and on time, but is of a quality that supports them in the work we ask them to do on our behalf?

The proposal will outsource about 40% of the MOD’s budget, with some £16 billion being put in areas taken under the GoCo’s control. This morning’s sitting made it quite clear that we do not know the detail of exactly how the GoCo will work in practice—even the Minister and his team are still working on that—but those details are very important. The proposal involves a large amount of taxpayers’ money and, if we get it wrong, our nation’s security might be put in jeopardy, as might be the lives of the men and women whom we ask to fight on our behalf. The Minister said that clause 1 is enabling legislation, but from the mood music up until today and this morning’s sitting, it is clear that the MOD wishes to continue in that direction of travel.

I need some convincing that the proposal will not only be a better way of procuring defence equipment for our armed forces, but give value for money to the taxpayer and provide a suitable and necessary degree of accountability for the taxpayer and Parliament. Having looked at Mr Bernard Gray’s evidence to the Committee, I must say that his case is quite weak. His main point seems to be that the real issue is about being able to attract the right people to the defence procurement process in relation to expertise and remuneration. It is going a bit far to go through all this radical change, which this is, to get to such a point, if we could do so without necessarily dismantling the present system and outsourcing a very important part of the MOD’s and this nation’s work.

As regards relationships with other countries and what they do, which was touched on this morning, the proposal is pretty unique in that no other country is going down this route. When we make decisions on the enabling clause and the proposal, we need to take into account the fact that the procurement of defence equipment is a global enterprise. It relies on close partnerships and, as the Minister said this morning, not only on good co-operation in terms of technology, but also on intelligence sharing in terms of security. Given the support that we need for some of those projects—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness has just walked in, which is good timing. Certain contracts, including the nuclear deterrent, not only are vital to our national security, but in their delivery need close co-operation with our American allies.

One therefore asks why no one else is embarking on the same process. Looking at the American response, I was a little concerned this morning when the Minister informed us about ongoing discussions with the Americans around, for example, the nuclear deterrent, and said that issues could be worked through. As a Committee and as Parliament, we need to know what those issues are before the Bill has been enacted, because it could be a showstopper if we get to a point where the Americans, certainly on the nuclear deterrent, are not happy or will not accept the interference in that process by what would be a private contractor.

On the interface with Government, there is a basic position taken by many other nations take, which is that certain things that have to be procured on behalf of our nation not only should be sovereign-delivered within our borders, but delivered by the state. That is clearly the American position. If we look at the Americans’ review, they clearly take a view on outsourcing, and they use the phrase “inherently governmental functions”. According to the letter of President Obama to the Office of the Federal Procurement Policy:

“Inherently governmental functions: described in the Federal Activities Inventory Reform Act of 1998 as ‘a function that is so intimately related to the public interest as to mandate performance by public employees’

Functions ‘closely associated’ with the inherently governmental: mainly concerned with information-provision and advice roles

Critical functions: roles and associated capabilities necessary for an agency (ministry) to perform effectively and maintain control of its mission and operations.”

One thing that clearly came out of this morning’s debate is the relationship between the private company that runs the GoCo and the decision making in the MOD, at the ministerial level and, as the budgets have been devolved, in the single services. That interface will be important. I accept what the Minister said this morning about some sharing of work, profit or savings, but how will those savings be accrued from the process? The argument so far has been that the civil servants or military personnel doing this job have, basically, not been good at negotiating contracts with suppliers—some of the major primes, in particular. There are two issues there, however, the first around looking at DE&S in terms of comparators to other projects, both in the private sector and the public sector. We have all seen examples of that, such as in the delivery of major infrastructure projects or IT projects in the Department of Health and other areas.

Are they inherently bad at what they do? Can they improve? Yes, they can. In terms of international comparators, we always look to the United States as an exemplar of a free-market way of doing things. However, anyone who actually looks at the US system very closely can see that it is one of the most inefficient procurement systems that one could envisage. The difference is that in many cases money is thrown at problems rather than problems being worked through. One of the key things in the American system is that ministerial control and—even more importantly—the control of expenditure by politicians is still there.

One of the problems that DE&S has faced in procurement—this is not a party political point, but it is a point that will face the new GoCo—is how you offset—

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for letting me try to correct him on a misconception that he has just referred to. He suggested that, under the US procurement system, ministerial responsibility remains and that, under what we are proposing, it will cease to remain. That is simply not the way it works. The GoCo—if we go down that route—will be an agent of the MOD, acting under the instruction of the capability-setters within the MOD, responsible to Ministers and accountable to Parliament through an accounting officer.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I did not quite say that. What I am trying to find out is how that relationship will work in practice? That is because if we look at projects procured by the last Labour Government and the previous Conservative Government we see that many of the cost over-runs of those projects are basically for two or three reasons. First, are they long and complex programmes? Yes they are, so they are inherently very difficult to manage. Does specification and demands on those projects change over time? Yes it does, and sometimes the primes are possibly trying to second-guess what the MOD requires. Also, the fact of the matter is that there is a situation whereby, because technology changes, things change. That is a cost driver, whether we like it or not, and it will not go away in terms of the system of GoCo.

The other point about what the relationship between the Minister and the GoCo will be is interesting. This present Government and the last Government, which I was a member of, delayed programmes, not because of a wish to do so but to meet the envelope, in terms of the financial constraints on the budget. The present Government and Bernard Gray have argued that we now have this cash cushion within DE&S, in terms of underspends. However, if we look at the National Audit Office report in terms of existing projects, let alone the projects that have not yet gone through to procurement phase, it is questionable whether that cash cushion will be big enough to cover any increase in costs, because there are increasing costs that are—frankly—unavoidable, in terms of inflation and the costs of currency exchanges, certainly when we are dealing with procuring equipment from abroad, for example.

However, I am also not clear how the GoCo will react to a change in demand, as the contract is quite a long one and over that period of time—as I said this morning—if we had looked in 2001 and said that by 2006 we would need an entire new suite of armoured vehicles that were needed in Afghanistan, that was perhaps not the priority at that stage. So, if the actual programme is changed by ministerial direction, either for new capability wanted to come on-stream, or by the fact that budgets will be finely balanced between different programmes, that will lead to problems for the GoCo in delivering what is trying to be delivered, which is equipment delivered on time and in an efficient manner.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The hon. Gentleman has just used the example of protected vehicles in Afghanistan, which, of course, were procured through the urgent operational requirements procurement system, the funding for which does not come out of the MOD budget, but from the Treasury contingency. However, that example does not apply in his case.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

It does. Having been there at the time, the Minister will know about the weekly arguments the MOD had with the Treasury about what was an urgent operational requirement. Although he is correct to say that some vehicles were procured under that system, many things were not and those had to be funded from the main equipment budget. [Interruption.] It is painful, as the Minister says.

I never experienced the Treasury’s being sympathetic or understanding that process. Although on occasions, possibly, some sections of the armed forces tried to push things through as urgent operational requirements, although they were not, the Treasury fought back quite hard. These pressures will be felt increasingly by a future procurement Minister or the MOD. Such an arrangement will skew whatever the GoCo does.

It is not clear to me how the efficiency targets would be achieved. The GoCo could act in good faith and we could find that, because of those pressures—for budgetary or other reasons—it will not be its fault that things are pushed in terms of being able to meet budgets. Again, it is a bit naive, to say the least, to suggest that the GoCo will somehow be immune from political, or Treasury, interference.

In terms of the Bernard Gray report, a lot of things would be fine in a perfect world, but we are not dealing with a perfect world, as the Minister knows. He would have to deal with the Treasury, even in these straitened times. I cannot imagine some of the rows he must have, trying to get money out of the Treasury at the moment.

Those will be some of the issues with GoCo. The other thing that is not clear is how existing contracts will be managed. The F-35 and the C-17—this Government have procured extra aircraft, as we did when in power—are procured under Government-to-Government contracts. Will the GoCo be inbetween somehow, negotiating those? The problem there relates to what the hon. Member for North Devon said this morning: why would a GoCo be needed in the middle of that process? That is another issue that makes difficulties where they should not be.

Issues and concerns have been raised by the industry, rightly, about the F-35. This is a collaborative programme and it is hoped that it will be a good aircraft, when procured. One driver of that programme that will be good for UK business is exports. It will be difficult to ensure that that process is conducted properly.

It will be interesting to see how the GoCo fits with another two contracts: the Typhoon and the A400M, which are Government-to-Government collaborations. Will it add anything in terms of trying to get that project in place?

We have seen similar reorganisations in other organisations, such as the health service. There will be huge upheaval when people move from MOD contracts to the new GoCos. That will affect terms and conditions— TUPE will apply—and pensions, and there will be the issue of who will pick up pension liability. I wonder whether the change over the next few years will hinder the proper process that we should have to deliver the equipment that we need.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I want to try to help the hon. Gentleman out, as regards his concern about Government-to-Government contracting relationships. We do on occasion acquire substantial equipment programmes from the United States—for example, through the foreign military sales regime. Some of those programmes are relatively short—for instance, we add an extra C-17 to an order, as we have done this year and last—while some endure for many years, such as the joint strike fighter programme, the F-35. The attractions of using a GoCo to manage that process on behalf of the MOD are not just the extra professional management skills deployed, but the ability within a GoCo to retain that skill base for longer than under the current construction, whereby civil servants and military personnel tend to be revolved much more rapidly within the organisation. A project manager for the joint strike fighter, for example, would be expected to stick with a project for perhaps a decade or more, rather than a few years, as at present. That should introduce greater skill and efficiency into the programme.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

That is if the people stay; there is a question mark there.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

The Minister makes an interesting point: surely, if we are looking for flexibilities that could be offered within DE&S, the retention of staff over a longer period would be one of those issues. The CDM has already acknowledged that and is starting to roll some of that out, albeit over a shorter period.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

There is that point. That is why we need to explore further with DE&S-plus whether we can incentivise people—whether by offering more expertise, remuneration or other things—so that we get that stability. I think the Government have made up their mind that GoCo is the way forward. It would be interesting to know how contracts such as the al-Yamamah one with Saudi Arabia would be managed. There are sensitivities around that, and it has been very controversial since its inception in the 1980s. It would be interesting to know where the GoCo would fit in with that. That is a Government-to-Government contract, but over a longer period than perhaps even the period for which a GoCo could exist.

The other issue about the GoCo is that it exists for a relatively short time—in some cases, for a shorter time than some of the programmes it will manage. As a result of the restrictions regarding conflict of interest that have rightly been imposed, quite a few companies have chosen not to bid. The numbers we will be quite small. The idea that this will be a competitive process is limited.

My other concern is about what will happen as regards re-tendering when the GoCo contract is finished. Will there honestly be a proper competition at the end of the nine-year contract? By that stage, there will be one organisation that has built up the expertise and information and has run the contract. It will be a brave organisation or consortium that bids against it when it has that type of knowledge. The problem is that if a consortium is there right at the beginning, it will continue. It is difficult to envisage others coming in, questioning that and competing for the contract.

I accept what the Minister said about payment from Treasury reserves for urgent operational requirements in some cases, but I am not clear how that process will be managed. That is something that we introduced in Government that was universally accepted to work well, in terms of delivering kit and capability to the front line quickly and efficiently. No one else in the world is doing this. Is that a reason why we should not? No, but it prompts the question: why are other major defence nations not going down this route? I heard what the Minister said this morning about the controls and ministerial oversight of the GoCo—

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I will resist the temptation to rise to correct every single one of the hon. Gentleman’s misconceptions, because that would try the Committee’s patience, but I will try to reassure him on the point about whether there is likely to be competition at the end of the first contract. It is correct that we are the first nation to consider introducing private sector expertise into our military procurement, but now that we have taken this innovative approach, several other countries are observing what we are doing with considerable interest, and we are meeting them periodically and regularly. If this is successful, it would not surprise me if in nine years’ time we find that other countries have gone down the same path. They may go with the same consortium that is looking after the interest in the UK; other countries might see a market developing and seek to enter it themselves. I think that it would be wrong to suggest that the consortium would be in a monopoly supplier position; I think that others will enter the marketplace.

Secondly, as I said earlier, other companies have joined the AWE consortium during the course of a contract or on contract renewal. It is not right to suggest that once we have established one consortium, it will be fixed in stone in a market-dominant position forever.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I have to say that the Minister is incredibly naive if he thinks that, if a contract ends with the GoCo in a dominant position, others will come in to compete against it. The GoCo will have a huge advantage, in terms of the expertise that it has built up and its relationships with the MOD. I imagine that competing for a contract like that would be a very expensive process for anyone freshly come to it. It is okay to say that others are considering the model, but possibly they are considering it warily to see which way we are going. During my last discussions in Washington and with the French, they asked, as many people do, why we are considering doing this.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way again. On the issue of other countries looking into the possibility of having a GoCo, given the small number of companies that could lead a consortium-type bid, is there not a risk that a number of them would want to run similar organisations in different countries? That would be a conflict of interest.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

My hon. Friend makes a good point about the scale and nature of the contract. She is correct: only a certain number of companies could do this. We mentioned one of them this morning, Serco. It was interesting to listen to the Minister discussing what would happen if Serco were debarred due to its ineffectiveness in delivering on other Government contracts, and what that would do to the consortium. We are not talking about a short-term basis; this is a long-term contract with some important outcomes. If the French or others were barmy enough to go down this path, what would stop a company that runs a GoCo in this country bidding for their procurement? Where would the Chinese walls—I think we called them that this morning—or firewalls lie between those countries? That is a great risk to the security that we need to maintain in this area.

I turn to some of the projects covered by GoCos, in particular the nuclear deterrent. This morning, we did not get a great deal of detail about the ongoing further negotiations. I asked the Minister whether he would indicate the areas under negotiation. The Committee needs to know what they are in order to make a judgment on whether GoCos are possible for a nuclear deterrent, which will be a major investment for the nation over the next few years, and we need to know whether any red lines that the Americans come forward with could result in that being taken out of the GoCo contract, as I think the Minister said this morning. If that happened, what would that do to the existing GoCo’s pool, in terms of not only the relationship with the Americans, but the overall contract that the GoCo thought it was bidding for before that was taken out?

Just before lunch, we found ourselves in a strange situation: the Minister admitted—I did not realise this—that the GoCo will not have exclusivity when contracts are organised; the front line and others could bid outside that process. That was raised by the hon. Member for North Devon. If that is the case as regards the contract let to the GoCo, it will be interesting to see how big the cake will be, because I cannot see anyone wanting to invest in a GoCo project if, having thought that they were bidding for the entire cake, they find that two thirds is taken away, or could be taken away at any point in the process. If a contract is not exclusive, I would have thought it would be difficult for some of those investors to work out their profit levels.

This morning we also discussed the dual role, possibly, of Crown civil servants and others who work for the GoCo. They will have two masters: the MOD and the GoCo. I have never been in an organisation that has two masters like that, and this organisation will be set up with competition at its heart to ensure that efficiency is brought forward. It will be interesting to see how those individuals will be responsible and accountable. As a result of those two factors—the nuclear deterrent being taken out, and the unexclusive contracts that mean that part of the cake is nibbled away throughout the contract—whoever bids will be unclear about what size market they are going into.

The other important area—I know that it will be covered later—is the existing single-source contracts. Quite a number of my constituents worked at the old Royal Ordnance factory in Birtley and moved recently to the new munitions plant at Washington in Tyne and Wear. I am not sure whether the Minister has visited it, but he will be aware of it. It is a state-of-the-art munitions plant.

Russell Brown (Labour, Dumfries and Galloway)

Absolutely.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

My hon. Friend agrees, because he visited it. The reason for that investment was the long-term munitions single-source contract, entered into with the MOD, which gave certainty. That is just one of a number of similar single-source contracts. Will they be brought under the GoCo, and what will the relationship be? Clearly, the managers and the investors in BAE Systems have worked on the basis that their contract—I think it is for 15 years—is in place and that it cannot be renegotiated. They have obviously borrowed money to build a brand new state-of-the-art facility for that contract. If that will come under the GoCo, how do we prise out any added value? If we are talking about trying to renegotiate that contract in any way, where does that leave a company such as BAE Systems, which has invested several millions of pounds in building a brand new facility to deliver that contract? That is a question about single-source contracts that needs answering. Some contracts are longer than the one that is in place, including the air tanker contract that comes under the private finance initiative arrangements. Will that be part of this process?

Tobias Ellwood (Conservative, Bournemouth East)

The hon. Gentleman has mentioned the air tanker twice now. I just wondered whether he, as the Minister involved with that project, is proud of that particular agreement, bearing in mind its £13 billion price tag and the length of the agreement. There is one example that I hope the advent of GoCo will be able to prevent. We created an air tanker, the Voyager, which is designed to refuel aircraft in the sky—so far so good. At the same time, similar companies were involved in the Airbus A400M, which he also mentioned. Unfortunately, under the contractual arrangements, the A400M is not allowed to refuel our aircraft. It seems madness to purchase an aircraft that is useful for transporting and that has the capability to refuel, but is not allowed contractually to be used by our armed forces to refuel.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

On Voyager, I have spoken with the RAF and it is happy with the contract that has been put forward. There was a lot of nonsense at the time—I know that I may be digressing here—about how we could buy the aircraft off the shelf at a fraction of the cost over the period of the contract, but that naive approach is one of the problems with defence procurement. The former Secretary of State took that approach, as does the hon. Member for Bournemouth East. They seem to think that procuring defence equipment is a bit like buying a new car—a person walks into a showroom and says that they will have one in blue, one in yellow and one in pink, and they will have them by next Thursday. It does not work like that. [Interruption.] I cannot quite see the hon. Gentleman in a pink car. It is not as simple as that. It is about not just the availability of those aircraft, but things such as defensive aid suites. That is an example of how what seems to be a simple piece of kit involves quite a difficult and complex procurement process.

Tobias Ellwood (Conservative, Bournemouth East)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he has been very generous in doing so. My concern is that he has been scarred by his experience in government. We must not forget that responsibility for finances was taken away from the MOD and given to the Treasury under special measures brought in by the previous Government because things got so bad during their tenure. Yes, the contract is there now; it is being honoured by this Government. The hon. Gentleman is right that I raised concerns about it. It seems curious that nine aircraft were bought at a total price of £13 billion when an A330 can be bought off the shelf for £60 million. That suggests that we could have fought for a better deal. The question is whether the GoCo process will avoid that and allow better scrutiny before a deal is actually struck.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Again, the hon. Gentleman is saying, rather simplistically, that the aircraft could be bought at that point. The Voyager contract, which is over 29 years, includes all the service, the full package of spares, and the through-life costs of those aircraft. Although it has been said that a second-hand Boeing 767 could be bought and then somehow converted, we have seen the problem of converting existing aircraft with the Nimrod contract, which again, was ordered by the last Conservative Government, and, frankly, we should have cancelled it. If people read the Select Committee report—[Hon. Members: “That’s a first.”] Well, it is not actually. The Select Committee report, I think, from 2004, includes the amendment that I moved to cancel it.

Tobias Ellwood (Conservative, Bournemouth East)

But you did not cancel it.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

The fact of the matter is that it was a bad contract, but I shall not go down that route.

Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)

Order. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will deal with the clause rather than the previous contract under the previous Government.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I do not understand how the GoCo will make any difference. One of the issues, as I said earlier, is about the specification of equipment, and the drivers on that are cost and requirement. That requirement will change over a period of time, in terms of when people want technological or capability changes. Therefore, that will not change with the GoCo in relation to driving costs out. What it will mean is that there is a sales agent between the Minister and the primes and others in delivering those contracts. The problem is whether we need to have a major reorganisation. I would argue that no, we do not. The existing vehicle could be changed, in terms of trying to get what we all want to get, which is, as the Minister said earlier—I do not disagree with him on this point—the equipment being delivered on time and in an efficient way.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

It is unfortunate that the hon. Gentleman was not present during the oral evidence session, when Bernard Gray addressed precisely that point, which was about how, by introducing a GoCo with a hard, contractual relationship with the MOD, with an incentive to get costs down, that will fundamentally change the nature of the procurement animal between the MOD and DE&S. At present, there is no hard boundary and there are no consequences in the event of overruns, which we have just been talking about in some of the historic projects that the hon. Gentleman helped to oversee.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I am sorry, but I disagree. I do not think that a hard contract will help the process. We can use that type of phrase—a “hard contract”—but things that the GoCo will have no control over are going to determine these projects. They are ministerial decisions. They involve fluctuations in such things as currency charges and, because such projects take a long time, a need for the capability to change. That falls outside whatever terminology we use about a watertight or tough contract, because the GoCo will have to do what Ministers tell them to do in that respect.

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

Thank you, Mr Owen, for allowing me to serve under your chairmanship. Does the hon. Gentleman also recognise that one of the really big problems over the years is that the Treasury has never been particularly confident that defence procurement has been a successful activity and that it has been done well? Surely this is a way of trying to ensure that we can deliver confidence to the Treasury, so that it is less reticent about seeking to take some of these tough decisions rather better.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I would love to see what the Treasury’s view is. I would think that it is very uneasy, as some senior civil servants are in the MOD, about giving control over the process to the private sector. As for the situation being more robust from the Treasury’s point of view, I am not sure that that will be the case. One of the main things with Gray is that the defence procurement budget will be fixed for a certain period of time, but who knows what will happen in 10 years’ time? That will affect what equipment we can have. The way the Government are going at the moment and with the round of redundancies coming in the new year, we will have more tanks and pieces of equipment than members of the armed forces. I think we can achieve what we want to achieve without going down this process.

I have a concern about the penalties the Government will have available to them to ensure that the GoCo delivers. We talked this morning about Abbey Wood. Anyone who has run a company, a council or anything like that will know that if budget reductions are made it is possible to talk, like the Communities Secretary does, about saving money on paperclips, pot plants and thinks like that, but it will not save the big budget items that are wanted. The only thing that saves money is people because they are the most expensive item in most organisations. What was interesting about this morning’s discussion about Abbey Wood is that there will be a reliance on the GoCo to occupy those buildings. We are not clear what the rental levels or the agreement will be.

I am not sure that any company will take on a commitment to occupy a building, because if one is trying to drive through efficiencies there will be fewer people to occupy it. People can be moved around the building and spaced out a little, but if we are talking about the lifetime of this contract, technology will change and there may be people working not in one single site but on numerous sites and even home working, for example. What will happen? I am not sure that any company will take on a commitment for a building in those circumstances. The Minister said this morning that there would be a penalty clause in the usual contractual terms, but that leaves the MOD with a problem in terms of a building that has been paid for which needs to be occupied or sold on. Again this detail needs to be looked at.

I turn now to the clause on conflicts of interest. It is interesting on two levels: on an individual level but also in relation to the concerns that the Opposition have about the potential conflicts of interest or security implications for our defence procurement. Let me deal with the position of people first. It is clear in the Bill that people cannot have conflicts of interest with other companies. One example has already been given of a director who has had to resign from a company because of a conflict of interests. It is a long contract. Even though they will be very well paid, according to Mr Gray, there will be an incentive for the employees of the GoCo to move. We explored this earlier. How will we stop them moving to contractors who are bidding for work with the MOD via the GoCo? In the short term that will not be possible.

Reference has already been made to the civil service or ministerial rules. We know how useless they are at stopping people moving after a period of time to areas in which they have had a previous interest. Quite rightly those rules have been criticised. There could be a period of purdah, which is common both in private industry and in other areas, but I do not see how it will be possible to stop people moving. It would be illegal to lay down that once someone had worked for a GoCo they could never work in the defence sector again. So what will prevent companies that are bidding for MOD contracts from poaching people from the GoCo? The answer is nothing. The idea that there will be an impregnable Chinese wall, or whatever it is, to stop people moving from the GoCo to the private sector is wrong, because we know in our hearts that that barrier will not exist. That raises questions about the effectiveness and integrity of the GoCo. There is an issue and it will be interesting to hear the Minister’s response to it. The people who work for the GoCo will be highly prized by many defence companies.

This morning, we touched on the number of companies involved, and reference has already been made to Serco. The Minister said that if a wider Government decision was made on Serco, that company may have to be taken out or asked to leave the process, but that limits the number of companies that can bid for this type of work. Has he looked at whether members of the potential consortium for the GoCo have any skeletons in their closets from existing contracts with Whitehall Departments or from international contracts? What assurances has he had on that? If we have question marks over the integrity of the consortium members or their performance in contracts in this country or overseas, that could debar them from taking part in the process.

Another issue that we touched on this morning was ownership in the GoCo. The Minister could not answer our question. I know that the Government will have the golden share and be able to block takeovers of the GoCo itself, but we need to explore the share ownership of the GoCo’s members. If, for example, Serco was taken over by a Chinese, Russian or any other sovereign wealth fund, would the Government ask it to withdraw from the GoCo? Serious questions need to be asked on how and at what level parts of the consortium would be asked to leave the GoCo. We need reassurance not only on what measures will be in place to deal with possible foreign control of a key part of our defence procurement process, but confidence that there is at least some mechanism in place to look at that eventuality. Without that, individual parts of the consortium could be taken over—or control and influence over them could be gained—and that could, if not directly, indirectly influence the GoCo.

I do not understand why the Government have not looked at the issue with the GoCo board. It is clear that a number of successful UK and European-based companies contract with the United States Department of Defense. This morning, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View talked about the support of the local employment base. In the United States, people are clear about that process. Anyone trying to enter the US defence market has either to build a plant or to buy a company in the United States. There are two reasons for that. The first is security. BAE Systems North America has a separate, stand-alone board from BAE Systems and does not have any interface.

The proposal to have a stand-alone UK board is important, and I cannot understand why the Government have not opted for that. They have insisted that either the chair or the chief executive has to be a UK citizen, but a stand-alone UK board would provide some confidence that we will not possibly get leakage of information or perceived leakage of information, or influence from parent companies and their operations in different parts of the world. The Americans quite rightly judge that arrangement to be important, and so should we. If we are going to have a GoCo, we should insist on having a separate, UK-based board.

The Minister also said this morning that the company will be registered in the UK and pay all UK taxes. I would like to know how that will be done. Is that going to be an insistence on the GoCo? How will the Government insist in the contract that the export of profits from the GoCo to the individual companies will be subject to all UK taxes? As the operator will be a consortium, a number of companies will have come together to deliver a GoCo. What control will we have on the delivery of profits that are made to the individual parts of the GoCo?

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I have a number of quick points. The company will be incorporated in the UK. The hon. Gentleman asked how we will ensure that that happens. The MOD will be a signatory to a contract with that company. If the company is not correctly incorporated in the UK, we will not sign the contract. The MOD will have the right to appoint an observer on to the board of the operating company, so we will have someone at board level able to ensure that the company behaves appropriately.

A point was made earlier about the rules regarding directors of the GoCo going off to other companies. Directors will be subject to the same rules on public appointments as currently apply to defence contractors. The hon. Gentleman also spoke of individual employees of the GoCo being poached to work in industry. He is absolutely right; that happens now in DE&S. That is one of the problems in the industry. The reason why we think the GoCo might be a better construct to encourage longevity in service is that it will be able to provide a career structure in a way that does not apply to the DE&S to the same degree, because that career structure is an inherently military and civil service career structure, which has different characteristics.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I accept that point, but that could also be delivered by DE&S-plus, if we went down that route. The idea that the GoCo is the only way to deliver that is problematic. I would have more faith in the Government’s approach, as would most people who look at the process, if we were having a genuine beauty parade between two options, but we are not—[ Interruption. ] I am sorry, but I do not think we are.

What the Minister has just said about the board is interesting. He said that he will insist that the company is incorporated in the UK. He also said that the MOD will have an observer on the board. I do not know what the Minister’s definition of an observer is, but they will not have voting rights or influence on the board’s operation. If the board decides to do something the MOD does not agree with, how will it insist that that does not happen if it has only an observer on the board who cannot vote or influence the process?

I return to the point that there will be a consortium, not one single company. It may be incorporated in the UK, but how will its profits be apportioned to its individual members and what will their tax status be in terms of the individual profit lines that will go to the parent companies? It would be interesting to know how the Government could insist that when, for example, Serco or someone else receives its profits from the GoCo it does not channel them through one of its overseas subsidiaries or set up a mechanism to avoid paying what we would all consider to be the proper amount of tax on those profits. That needs further examination and an explanation of exactly how that will be structured.

It would be ironic if we spent public money procuring defence equipment for our brave servicemen and women, and the companies managing the process did not pay the full amount of tax on their profits in the UK. Clarification is needed of how the MOD can insist on that not just in the short term but in the long term, and whether paying a certain amount of tax or having a more tax-efficient way of paying it will be an issue for some companies when bidding and making their investment proposals.

Many issues remain concerning conflict of interest and they need to be explored. The Minister said that the directors will be covered by the same process that covers Ministers and civil servants, but if he has confidence in that, no one else has. That will not stop directors moving, even if we pay them large salaries to work for the GoCo and thereby be directors of it. It is difficult to know what will happen. We could insist that there is a cooling-off period, which is common in some areas—[Interruption.] The Minister nods, but how long will that be for. It cannot last for the entire nine years of the contract or the eight or five years remaining. That person will have detailed knowledge of how the GoCo is working if they go to a competitor company. That is the problem, and I accept why the Government are trying to put in place mechanisms to prevent conflict of interest, but as soon as the private sector is brought into the organisation, as is being done, that will be virtually impossible. The mechanisms may be well meaning, but they will not work in practice.

The other situation that was raised this morning was how GoCo will be accountable to Parliament. That is covered later in the Bill, but it is worth exploring the transparency issues. A key issue is that not only is accountability to Parliament necessary, but the public must have confidence that there will be proper oversight of the procurement of equipment and the working of the GoCo. There will be a profit share between the two organisations—the MOD and the GoCo—but what will be the drivers of that profit? I have already mentioned that, if we are going to drive costs out, people are going to be one of those factors. But what else? Are they going to be so good that the big primes will be quivering in their boots? Are they suddenly going to ensure that money is found? It is not clear exactly how the “profit” is going to be made out of the contract. That is one of the fundamental problems with this type of arrangement.

In the workshare, is the profit going to come just from efficiencies, or are the Government going to try to renegotiate contracts that have already been let, as the Minister talked about at the start of this process? I know the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) argued when he was first in post that these bad, wicked primes that had duped the MOD over the years would somehow have their contracts renegotiated. I have yet to find out how much the Government have renegotiated from those contracts—unless the Minister is prepared to publish them. I have asked him on a number of occasions to do so, but all he said to me was, “You have asked the wrong question.” I shall have to think more ingeniously about how to ask that question.

This year’s MOD budget gave a figure of £700 million for efficiencies from renegotiated contracts. After the contracts have been let by the MOD via the GoCo, are we going to say to the primes that think they have won the contracts fair and square that, lo and behold, after a certain number of years we will revisit the contracts and screw them down for more? That is a little like going to a tailor, asking for a new suit, agreeing a price, walking out the door, then walking back in two years later and saying, “I want a discount on the suit that I have been wearing for the past two years.” That is the problem. I can see what will happen very clearly. It will not create the constructive relationships that the MOD wants to build with contractors and suppliers. All we will be doing is inflating the price of the original contract because we know that we will be giving back 5%, 6% or 10% later on. That is not an efficient way of doing things.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The hon. Gentleman gives me an opportunity to answer his challenge and give him some examples of where we have succeed in renegotiating contracts and reducing the cost to the MOD. It illustrates the stark contrast between the approach taken by the ministerial team under the previous Government and the much more rigorous, value-for-money and taxpayer-focused attitude of the current ministerial team.

At the defence and security exhibition at the ExCeL centre last month, the renegotiation of the support contract for the Apache and Merlin helicopter engines was announced, a contract that will last six years at a cost of some £367 million—£300 million cheaper than the arrangements that existed under the hon. Gentleman’s Government over an equivalent period.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I am pleased to hear that. Will the Minister now produce a full list of all those contracts? The original strategic defence and security review figures and his own budget now show that it is on target. Will he publish the full list of contracts that are up for renegotiation along with the targets? Is that process going to be carried out by the GoCo or by him? In his latest policy paper, the Minister seems to want a constructive relationship; will there be a threat over those companies?

I have spoken to a number of companies about this issue. They are not daft. They say that they want to continue to do business with the MOD and that the renegotiation emerged through fear rather than anything else. Is the Minister trying to tell me that that is a good basis for long-term, productive negotiations and for the development of our industrial base? I do not think that is the case at all. In future, he will find that people will add a margin to the price at the beginning because they know that later it will be taken out; I know he has a business background and I am sure he did the same when selling his books. Perhaps I will ask his brother, next time I see him in his bookshop in Mayfair—it is a very fine bookshop, I hasten to add, next to the Saudi embassy, and I recommend that people visit it—whether that is a process he would undertake.

In such cases, people will add an amount to the contract at the beginning. It is not as though we are talking about a mass of companies that can deal with this type of project; we are talking about a small number of individual contractors, so if one does it, it is quite clear what the others will do. If they are all negotiating under those conditions, they will all ensure that a margin is built into the contract, which will then be taken out later on.

I like the Minister. If he could produce the full list I mentioned, it would be very enlightening: we could see where the £700 million that has been earmarked this year is going to come from.

I turn now to another issue that was raised this morning: support for our local supply base. I support and take great pride in our defence industry, not only for the work it does in providing kit and equipment for our armed forces but for the excellent reputation it has for exporting products around the world—not just the primes but medium and small businesses. We cannot underestimate their importance to this country, not just for their monetary value but for the skill base they sustain. The constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness is famous for building nuclear submarines; there are very highly skilled individuals there, including engineers. There is also a cluster of optical and other companies around that industry. Those companies are quite small in nature but highly innovative: because they are small, they make sure they can react to markets very quickly. We need to retain those companies, and not just for the defence industry: as we know, such technologies are increasingly crossing over into other areas such as security.

If the cost driver in the GoCo is to get the most efficient contract—I am not suggesting for one minute that the Minister would not want to do that—we need some reassurance about how we will insist that the GoCo maintain the local-level expertise I have mentioned. This morning, in response to his hon. Friends, he gave us the assurance that that would be the case, but unless there is something in the contract to reflect that, how can he do it? We could find that SMEs and others that rely on the contracts are disadvantaged. In areas such as nuclear technology, investment should be local.

The Minister said this morning that any company would want to make sure that it had skills and investment locally. Yes, but unless we insist on that, a situation might arise in which a company, for example in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness, suddenly says that it is cheaper to do research and development in Europe or elsewhere. I pick Barrow not only because my hon. Friend is sitting next to me, but because that community is heavily reliant on two particular industries, the civil nuclear industry and the submarine industry. There is an important public policy point for such communities—I mean no disrespect to my hon. Friend, who knows that I love Barrow dearly, having worked there—in that if that local expertise was lost locally, it would be very difficult to attract other large employers. If the sole purpose of the GoCo’s existence is to drive out cost, where is the balance between ensuring that that happens and ensuring that local communities that rely heavily on defence contracts and expertise are maintained?

John Woodcock (Labour, Barrow and Furness)

My hon. Friend is making a powerful case, not least because he is taking the time to extol the virtues of Barrow, which is important to do in any of our debates in Committee. Does that point not add to the concern about the lack of any reference in the Bill to the need to promote the industrial base, particularly in areas such as mine, which are so dependent on the defence industry, as he rightly says?

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I agree with my hon. Friend. This is not just about the protection of local industries; they are vital interests and there would be large implications if they closed and we lost their skills. If a company suddenly decides that such skills do not have to be nurtured in the UK, they could be lost. I use the word “nurtured”, because they have to be nurtured: the supply of skilled engineers in the nuclear industry cannot be turned on like a tap when it is needed; engineers need to be trained over a long period and to be nurtured through work programmes and bringing new apprentices and younger people through the process. The decline of the UK shipbuilding sector means that there might be a shortage of shipbuilding welders in a few years’ time. If the Government are committed—to be fair to the Minister, I think that he is committed—to ensuring that we have a vibrant, successful defence industry in this country, not just at prime but at all levels, it is important to refer to that in the Bill.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I want to try to help the hon. Gentleman not to head too far up a blind ally. We discussed this morning, and he has just returned to this in his question, whether the GoCo would act in accordance with the MOD’s instructions, both in procuring specific equipment from a single-source supplier, on which the answer is yes, and in relation to policy initiatives in the MOD’s procurement policies—we touched on SMEs and exports —on which the answer is also yes. On both his concerns, it is therefore clear that the MOD will instruct the GoCo to adopt its policies and that it will act accordingly, so that need not be in the Bill.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I do not agree with the Minister. Such a matter can be reflected in a contract that sets out that the GoCo should, for example, take account of broader MOD policy, but what sanction does the MOD have over the GoCo to insist that that happens in practice? We can ensure either that that is done now in the Bill or in some mechanism in the contract, with the company insisting that vital skills are protected in places such as the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness.

Oliver Colvile (Conservative, Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport)

I represent Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport. Over the years, the Navy has been the dead hand, stopping any other activity taking place in Devonport. Ford, for example, was keen to come to Plymouth, but did not because the Navy stopped it. We need an organisation, such as the one being proposed, to ensure that the Navy is not preventing things from happening and to develop a proper and better-paid skills base. We need to ensure that one organisation is not dominant. We need a series of companies that can actually deliver some of what is proposed.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

The hon. Gentleman makes a strange comment. I have spent a lot of time in his great city and I know the great contribution that it makes to the defence of this country, but it is a bit harsh to call the Navy a “dead hand”, given the innovation and the change that it has gone through both in his constituency and elsewhere. He may be trying to curry favour with the Army by making such comments—I am sure that that will work—but they are not helpful. If I were him, I would be concerned about ensuring that, either in the Bill or the contract, local skills will remain. If that is not secured, the GoCo may take the MOD’s policy into account, but the MOD will have no levers to ensure that it does so in practice. Those who have been involved in defence for several years will know—as will the hon. Gentleman, from the work he does with SMEs—that SMEs need the loudest voice, because some quite rightly complain that they get crowded out by the primes when bidding for contracts or trying to innovate. If I were the hon. Gentleman, I would not just accept that his constituency will become a nirvana of regeneration; I would want some assurance that the MOD will ensure that the GoCo protects and takes account of SMEs. I accept that competition will be an issue, but it is important that this country maintains certain sovereign capabilities, such as those in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness. I would not want to see those skills lost in Barrow or anywhere else.

We touched this morning on the awarding of contracts and the GoCo. We are basically privatising our system of defence procurement. Quite rightly, defence contracts have been exempt from European procurement rules and one could argue—[Interruption.] I welcome the hon. Member for Canterbury. He asks whether I am still speaking. Yes, I am, and I am sure he will read my contribution in Hansard with great joy.

Julian Brazier (Conservative, Canterbury)

Apologies, Mr Owen. That was not meant to be a stage whisper, but perhaps the hon. Member for North Durham chose to hear it.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

No, I did not choose to hear it. I will not bore the Committee, but I had my ears syringed last week, so my hearing at the moment is good. I recommend it to anyone who has ear problems. Perhaps that is too much detail for the Committee. It does give some advantages in being able to hear the hon. Gentleman.

I would like to explore the contract relationship. Will these still be classed as MOD contracts under European law? The situation seems to be that, although the MOD is the customer, we are putting in place somebody else to negotiate. I think I know the answer, but I would like some assurance that the matter has been looked at, to ensure that the bureaucrats in Brussels or Strasbourg are not suddenly faced by MOD contracts that have to be opened up to competition throughout Europe.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

Again, to avoid heading down the ear trumpet of the hon. Gentleman’s confusion, this is not a privatisation. We will choose between a GoCo—a Government-owned entity—and DE&S-plus, which will remain within the public sector. If a contract is placed by a GoCo on behalf of the MOD, it will be an MOD contract and will remain subject to the protections that concern the hon. Gentleman. Because they are public sector procurements, they will have to accord with the EU procurement rules, and the others that I referred to in my remarks this morning. We will have the benefit of article 346 exemptions where we wish to direct procurement to particular companies in particular locations to help deal with the issues in Barrow about which he is so concerned, as are we.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Yes, but my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness has just reminded me of something. The Minister said that there were two options—DE&S-plus and a Government-owned entity—so that is not privatisation. That is not the case. I cannot see how the Government are going to own the process. They have the golden share to stop various things happening. However, decisions on procurement are to be taken by a private sector entity.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The premises on which the operating company will function will continue to be owned by the Government. The operating company can be transferred back into complete Government control in the event of failure of the management company above it. Through the mechanism of the golden or special share, the Government can exercise those powers. That is what gives Government control while the operations are undertaken by the private sector, with something more akin to an outsourcing arrangement.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

It is not an outsourcing arrangement. As the Minister said, I would have thought notionally most companies could be brought back—nationalised in a way—by the Government. In this situation, the day-to-day decision making on defence procurement will be made by a private company for profit. I find the logic that this is not a privatisation difficult to understand.

Regarding the people transferred into the GoCo and its ownership, the issue is the consortium. We all know the unhappy process. Before the hon. Member for Bournemouth East pipes up, I accept that it was a Labour Government who decided about QinetiQ. What is the role for individuals transferred from DE&S to the GoCo? Will they be allowed to take share options and other incentives? One could envisage a situation in which Mr Bernard Gray, if he is still around and has not been driven completely mad by the civil servants at the MOD—that is no disrespect to the civil servants in the room today; I am talking about those at a far higher pay grade—[Interruption.] Oh, the Minister is obviously incentivising his team by paying them good bonuses. That is why they have smiles on their faces—they are happy to work for him.

Anyway, what will be the situation for people currently working for DE&S if the GoCo comes into being? Will those individuals, especially at director level, be transferred and allowed, for example, share options and other incentives? In the unhappy QinetiQ process, certain individuals made huge sums of money when it was finally sold. Will any system be in place for people who are employed by DE&S? I mentioned Mr Bernard Gray because he seems to be doing well at the moment, in terms of his salary package, but if the successful bidder chooses to employ him or offer him a directorship with shares, given that he has been on the inside track, will there be any way of preventing that?

Certain individuals could make large sums of money, and if we are to go down this route, the area needs to be explored. It would sit uneasily with me and the vast majority of the people transferred to the organisation—many on lower pay than Mr Gray—if one or two individuals suddenly found themselves richly rewarded for coming up with the new GoCo system. I would therefore be interested to know what arrangements, if any, will be put in place, and whether that has crossed the MOD’s mind. I am sure that it might have crossed the minds of Mr Gray and others who potentially stand to make a lot of cash if the option goes ahead.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

If the GoCo option is used, incentive arrangements will be put in place between the MOD and the GoCo, in relation to fees. It will be up to the management company to decide what kind of incentive arrangements it wishes to put in place for employees within the GoCo. I do not wish to personalise the discussion, but since the hon. Gentleman has referred to Mr Gray, he has indicated that he would not be part of a GoCo structure. He would be part of the MOD governor function and remain within the MOD, so the issue does not arise in his case.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Mr Gray might say that, but it does not stop him doing it. It would be really wrong if he were able to go to the GoCo. If his whole argument is that people must be incentivised to work—I know that he is on a substantial salary package of at least £100,000 more than the Prime Minister earns a year—will the MOD look to incentivise him to keep him in that suggested role? It seems that one of the key drivers has been that he has argued for incentives, so how are we going to ensure that he is kept there? Likewise, having set up the organisation and fixed things as he has, along with others, he could clearly be a valuable asset if he went to work for one of the major defence contractors. The issue of people becoming directors needs clarification, because it would not sit comfortably with many people if some thought that they should be rewarded because of a system with which they had been involved from the beginning.

My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View, has tabled a number of amendments, leading to the wide-ranging discussion we had this morning and, hopefully, will have this afternoon about clause 1 and enabling legislation. I disagree with the Minister, although I quite like him, as I said earlier. There is only a single track in terms of where we are going. The GoCo is the only show in town as far as real change is concerned, and that is what we will end up with. The only way in which we could get cold feet is if the consultants’ report and others were published—that is what my hon. Friend challenged the Government to do this morning—so that the Committee could see their view.

If we are to have such a radical change, which will lock in a defence procurement system for many years to come, it needs to come back to Parliament after the assessment phase, because otherwise there will be no opportunity at all for Parliament to scrutinise this before it comes into existence. If we agree the Bill as outlined now, we are basically saying to the Government, “We trust you to ensure that we get the best deal for the taxpayer and Parliament.” We need scrutiny of the GoCo proposal and public airing and discussion of DE&S-plus, because again we are not hearing a great deal about that. If the Government think that their system will be better and that it will deliver what it says, it is important for the two options to be appraised publicly. If not, there will be the feeling, which certainly I and other Opposition Members already have, that GoCo is a done deal.

I do not know why the Government are resistant to providing that next stage of information. If we go down the GoCo route, the issues around DE&S-plus will be scrutinised closely by the Public Accounts Committee. We are part of a process, however, and enabling legislation does not sit comfortably with me, because, basically, it gives the Government the powers just to go off and do things once the Bill has been enacted. What came out of the debate this morning and this afternoon was that the Minister is, quite rightly, still working his way through a lot of the detail of how things will be done. In the Bill, we are being asked to agree to something that is not what will be entered into at the end of the process. We need the opportunity to come back to it. If we do not have that, I, like my hon. Friend, will argue strongly—perhaps not today, but certainly on Report—for opposition to the GoCo as outlined, because there are too many unknowns in the details.

Furthermore, if, as the Minister said, there is proper and genuine competition between two options, we should be able to appraise them before we agree to the process. A lot of people have looked at the Bill and described it as rather dry and boring. It may be, in the detail—no disrespect to the people who drafted it—but it will have major implications for many of our constituents. I will get another plug in for Barrow, so that next time I visit I can get a free cup of tea or perhaps the freedom of Barrow. It will impact on a number of communities throughout the country, in terms of procurement. It will also impact greatly on members of our armed forces; they live in our constituencies and we are rightly proud of them. I would not want a system put in place that in any way led to the process being inefficient or that meant that we did not get value for money. It does not fit comfortably with me that people should be making money out of Government money being spent, as we have seen.

This is a dry and possibly boring subject, and I hope that I have not kept people awake too much with my oration this afternoon. However, we need those two caveats. Without them, I could not support the clause at the moment. With those brief comments, I draw my remarks to a close.

Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)

I am genuinely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for concluding his remarks.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

Thank you, Mr Owen. I am sure that you have enjoyed your first sortie on this Bill. My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham has delivered what can only be described as an epic speech. [Interruption.] It was far too short.

The debate on the clause has been thorough and has benefited from the experience and knowledge of Committee members, including my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for North Devon, both of whom served as Defence Ministers. Probing questions were asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness, and by the hon. Members for South Derbyshire, for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport—my neighbour—and for Bournemouth East, all of whom have either practical experience of the services and their needs or have defence industries based in their constituencies.

I will now round up, because there will be a vote in the Chamber shortly. The Minister began his reply by setting out the reasons why an “as is” option is not necessary—basically, because the business plans have been taken as the baseline—and then, with great patience, responded to questions and detailed his opposition to our amendments.

He made an interesting defence of the legislation, despite the dogged, persistent attempts of my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham, who did not leave a single square inch of it uncovered during his comments.

Damian Hinds (Conservative, East Hampshire)

He has just thought of something.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

They want more! The concerns raised about nuclear safety and the nuclear deterrent, and the experience of UK-US Government that my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham has, should be taken seriously, not least because these issues are being investigated by the US task group considering our GoCo. The Minister did not answer my question about whether he believed that the US would require a case study to be tested against the UK proposals in this respect.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I apologise if the hon. Lady did not catch my remarks. I said that we have gone through a series of examples with the United States, particularly in relation to the submarine programme. I did not mention earlier that our director of submarines has been engaged with the US, talking though relevant issues in relation to the potential GoCo, including the deterrent. At this point, no red lines have emerged.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

I thank the Minister for clarifying that point. Clearly, I need my ears syringed, as does my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham.

The Minister repeatedly used the Atomic Weapons Establishment as an example of a successful GoCo, but the Cabinet Office is currently running the investigation into the contracts linked to one partner. The Minister carefully picked his way around that. It is a bit of a mess and there will be costs to the Government and taxpayers if failures are found, and it will create uncertainty. The public’s faith in such organisations and in some public companies is wearing a bit thin. It highlights the dangers around the potential involvement of some of the companies in the GoCo and in the consortia. We genuinely need to be clear that there are rigid safeguards in place to protect the taxpayer. We will come on to those in later clauses.

On the fire at AWE in 2010 and the resulting activity, will the Minister tell the Committee how much additional payment was required from the taxpayer, rather than from the companies involved? That information might be useful at some point.

The Minister spoke about the importance of balancing skills and capability. My hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness raised specific questions linked to the work carried out for the MOD in his constituency. The hon. Members for South Derbyshire and for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport rightly pressed the Minister further on skills. There is no requirement for the GoCo to hire locally or to stop it moving people in and around the UK, or outside the UK, as far as I can see. I am happy to be corrected, but I think it has such freedoms. It can, of course, employ people from outside the UK if entry requirements are met.

The GoCo does not appear to have any requirement to pay attention to the wider socio-economic implications for the projects it takes forward, which runs counter to wider departmental advice. The Minister states that the contracts will ensure skills are protected, but I am not convinced by that argument at the moment. He did, however, offer a useful explanation as to why the maritime option was the first to be taken forward. I understand the logic that he applied to that decision, but, to quote Sir Humphrey, “Brave, Minister. Very brave.” In going for the biggest projects—45% of the total budget—there are indeed savings. There is a potential pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that could benefit the Department, but if the model fails for any of the reasons mentioned so far, it could be quite an expensive failure.

In response to the questions about property, I understand the points that the Minister made about the termination process. None the less, I can still envisage a scenario in which, to save money, the company might wish to rationalise, as my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham mentioned. The Minister knows that the Secretary of State has often said that the only way the GoCo makes money is if it saves money, so reducing the footprint might be something that it would want to do.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

The hon. Lady might be seeking to interpret the Secretary of State’s remarks in relation to the operating costs of the GoCo. I think his main thrust was that the savings are to be made out of the programme itself: the 92% of the spend, rather than the 8%.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

But is there a company out there that, given the opportunity, would not want to save money if it found it had an over-large footprint? Would it not want to reduce it? It is an issue, particularly if a substantially sized office is deemed to be surplus to requirements.

The hon. Member for North Devon limited his interventions to two, but they were both characteristically to the point. He expressed scepticism about the way in which decisions were taken on property use and how that could be controlled. It comes back to my point and whether the MOD and the Secretary of State could have any control over what the GoCo did in any of the properties that they moved into.

Amendments 3 and 4 are, of course, linked. We still have reservations, so I will seek to divide the Committee on amendment 3. Clearly, if the amendment falls, we will not need a vote on amendment 4, because they are interconnected.

On the argument made about the Government’s ability to monitor share ownership and therefore influence companies within the GoCo, I am left extremely concerned. I accept that there are a series of protections in place through the bidding process, but I have issues that have yet to be fully explained when we come to the other side of that. It is unclear how proactive the monitoring of company share ownership will be. Who will undertake that task? In what sort of time scale could the MOD respond if it discovered that, either through a direct purchase of shares or some other vehicle, shares had been purchased by somebody who might be inappropriate? Again, that is a cause for concern. How quickly could it all be brought back in house, if that was necessary?

The Minister also needs to answer questions about who would be left arguing the case. Would there be a disagreement between the parent company and the company sitting beneath it in the consortium? If one of those proved to be a problem, who would the parent company take action against? Would it be against the company that is causing the problem, or would the company refer matters back and say, “Come on, MOD, you’ve allowed them into the consortium in the first place. You’re responsible for some of the other losses that we and our other partners are now incurring”? It is rather messy and I am willing to have the Minister come back at some point and explain how he envisages that sort of disagreement being resolved, because I am far from clear about it.

I thank the Minister for his offer of a note on change of control, because that might just allay some of the existing fears.

On the amendment about conflict of interest, the Minister’s reassurance that all of this can be handled on a voluntary basis is laudable, but not persuasive. He is relying on honourable men—they are largely men in this industry—to do the decent thing, and quite frankly history is littered with examples where that simply has not happened and a statutory duty has been required.

The Minister has clearly looked at the special security arrangement. I urge him to revisit it, because although there are—as he set out—firewalls in place as part of this newly designed model, revisiting it would offer a greater sense of security. Perhaps he could say whether or not he has had any discussions with his US counterparts about this method of working.

The Minister said in his response that amendment 5 is unnecessary, because the industry will not cut corners. Again, we come back to other examples in other areas— provision of care and provision of prisons. We know that corners get cut. It is wishful thinking to expect companies not to seek value for money.

The question by the hon. Member for North Devon about having a monopoly brokerage was an interesting one. In his answer, the Minister made it clear that the GoCo would not be able to pick and choose, but would basically be told what it would be procuring. I can see that being a cause of friction, because an organisation with the type of expertise that is likely to be sitting within the GoCo will not be too happy to find that services or pan-Government procurement could potentially override the work that it feels it should be undertaking. I can, of course, understand the Minister’s reply, in which he said that he wanted to keep them on their toes, but the GoCo will not want to see potential money-making projects siphoned off elsewhere.

In closing, I ask the Minister if he will answer my questions on CAAS and where that will sit post-GoCo, and to give some examples of the type of power to take decisions on behalf of the Secretary of State that is set out in subsection (7); I was hoping to get some practical examples.

The Minister also did not comment on cyber-security and how that will be managed.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I am happy to try to pick up on those points that—as the hon. Lady rightly said—I did not respond to in my earlier remarks.

As far as CAAS is concerned, that will not form part of the scope of the GoCo; that will be retained in the MOD, which I think the hon. Lady will find reassuring.

As far as cyber-security is concerned, as the hon. Lady may be aware the Secretary of State announced very recently that we will be establishing a cyber-domain within the MOD, to work with other branches of Government in ensuring protection of critical national infrastructure, to the extent that MOD contracts are placed independent of Government, and it would then be expected that those contracts would be placed through DE&S-plus or the GoCo, whichever is in place.

With regard to subsection (7), I think the hon. Lady was asking whether there were any examples of powers previously used by the Secretary of State that will be exercised by the GoCo. The answer is that, as the GoCo will be acting as agent of the Secretary of State, on instructions from the MOD, in essence it would be exercising its discretion in carrying out some of its tasks. For the avoidance of doubt, the subsection allows the GoCo to exercise its discretion, but the actual exercise of any function remains with the Secretary of State. I think that those are the specific questions that I failed to answer.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

The Minister has helpfully answered the last few questions, and his response on CAAS is helpful. I thank him.

The written evidence from Professors Hambleton and Kirkpatrick and I.J. Holder says that it is obvious that the creation of a defence acquisition GoCo of the proposed scale and scope would be an unprecedented experiment that would have to overcome a daunting array of challenges and risks. To some degree, the clause has flagged up the nature of some of those challenges and risks. Although we do not intend to vote against the clause, we intend to vote on amendments 3 and 10 and on amendment 4, which is contingent on amendment 3. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Albert Owen (Labour, Ynys Môn)

That is helpful.

Clause 2 - Financial assistance

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

I beg to move amendment 6, in clause 2, page 3, line 35, at end insert—

‘(2A) Before the financial assistance is granted, the Secretary of State must—

(a) lay before both Houses a report detailing the circumstances requiring the financial assistance;

(b) withhold approval of any assistance until the report has been laid, and

(c) write to the chairs of the relevant parliamentary committees indicating that such a report has been laid.’.

The amendment has been tabled so that the Minister can explain why there appears to be a lack of transparency and accountability specific to the clause. What is clear is that a lot of risk sits with the taxpayer. Therefore, when a contractor comes back, cap in hand and says, “Sorry, guv, but through no fault of ours we need a sub to keep this on track,” the public and Parliament have a right to know, not least because we are possibly talking about millions of pounds.

The clause as it stands is open-ended for both the GoCo contractor and the taxpayer. Subsection (1), which is italicised, is clearly money-related:

“The Secretary of State may give financial assistance to a contractor.”

That “may” appears to be a double-edged sword. From a shareholder’s perspective, that could send a ripple of concern: what happens if the Secretary of State decides not to bail out the contractor who may have got himself into a financial mess because of either incompetence or outside circumstances beyond his reasonable control?

We heard earlier from my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham on some of the issues that could affect contract costs and changes, including inflation and exchange rates. There might be a massive recession and key, unique suppliers go out of business, which leads to a product being seriously delayed with a massive cost overrun. That will surely end up the courts with a cost to the taxpayer, while the MOD could sit back and say to the company, “It is your responsibility to challenge. If you are in dispute with a company, whatever the basis is for your particular problems, it is up to you.” We and the taxpayer should not be dragged into that. Minister, we need to understand how the taxpayer is protected. Is the flexibility offered by the use of “may” the way to achieve that protection?

Clause 2(2) gives the Secretary of State broad powers on the financial assistance that could be provided. Opposition Members considered whether those should be more narrowly defined. Will the Minister put on record exactly how the provision is to be overseen by parliamentarians? Our probing amendment would ensure that, where financial assistance is to be offered, both Houses of Parliament, and potentially Select Committees, would be able to review proposals. That is not about vetoing proposals, but being transparent about the use of public money to bail out private companies.

Equally, we are not clear at what stage in any project the Secretary of State would be made aware of any cost overruns or concerns that may lead him to believe that he may need to offer financial assistance. We know that the governor will keep an eye on progress, but perhaps we should look to introduce something along the lines of the US’s Nunn-McCurdy Act, whereby a programme can be terminated if it exceeds by 50% the original baseline estimate unless the Defense Secretary provides written certification, in their case, to Congress, explaining how it will be restructured and why it is important to national security.

Given that Parliament does not appropriate funds, we could argue that if the programme went over the same threshold, the Secretary of State should explain to the PAC, the National Audit Office or the Select Committee how it would be brought under control. That follows on from the “learning lessons from overseas” message that we had prior to parliamentary scrutiny in earlier sittings.

The PAC and other Select Committees will always express concern about the fact that they cannot insist on the Minister who made the decision coming before them. That is not a huge problem for this Committee, and it may be a huge relief to the Minister to know that should he introduce a GoCo and should everything go horribly wrong, if he has moved on, up or out of Government, he will not be the person held to account. That is part of the problem, in my view. There has to be accountability in decision making.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

I have talked about where responsibility and accountability should sit, but does the Minister believe that the contract with the contractor will be so watertight that exposure for taxpayers or the company will be avoided? If so, given historic Government failures—his, ours, local government and central Government—in negotiating tight contracts with the private sector, why is he so confident that the Government have got it right this time, particularly as one of the Department’s failures—“failures” is not the right word—or weaknesses perceived by outsiders in particular has been its inability to negotiate.

If assistance is given by way of an indemnity, the liability is potentially unlimited and could involve the Government—I touched on that earlier—assuming liability for negligence, fraud or wilful default of a procurement services provider contractor under the Bill if that is not expressly carved out from the indemnity. Will the Minister confirm whether that is the case? If I have got the wrong end of the stick, I will be the first to put my hand up, but some reassurance would be helpful.

Does the Minister accept that the risk, when financial assistance is sought for other sorts of failure or breakdown, should sit with the contractor and not the taxpayer, and that in those circumstances it would be inappropriate for the Secretary of State to offer financial assistance? During a witness session, the Chief of Defence Matériel said that the GoCo will make money only if it saves money, which seems perfectly reasonable, but will the same rule apply to DE&S?

The CDM also talked in evidence about using a fairly standard measurement tool—earned value analysis or earned value management—to enable the MOD to keep an eye on the financial position of major projects running beyond the length of the contract, and said that that was already used in some parts of the MOD. If we are looking at reasons for financial assistance being offered, using an assessment tool that has not yet bedded down in a Department with a history of cost overruns and negative reports from the PAC and the NAO, how confident can we be that that will work in a completely new set-up? Should it not be allowed to bed down in the Department and, therefore, should the DE&S-plus model not be fully tested using that tool? It would help the Committee to assess the clause if the Minister set out exactly how he sees the DE&S-plus model managing financial risk. Does he envisage that element staying in-house or might it be outsourced within the DE&S-plus model.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham, who has disappeared, clearly thinks that we need more information about the DE&S-plus model to try to assess the GoCo model, and this is just one element within that on which it would be helpful to have a little more information, or at least a bit more about the Minister’s vision for a public sector alternative.

There are a number of questions about the landscape in which the changes may or may not be necessary. Has consideration been given to whether EU restrictions on state aid would apply to financial assistance under clause 2(1)? I assume, because of his response on clause 1, that this has all been worked through thoroughly. None the less, will he answer the question? On a point of major failure or fraud by one of the consortium members, what action might he take and what protections will there be for the taxpayer? Who will be liable when it comes to compensating the other consortium members who unwittingly may have got in bed with a partner whose behaviour is on the wrong side of the law? Will it be the lead company or the British taxpayer who has to pursue that company, obviously at great expense?

When is the intergovernmental report around the Ministry of Justice’s concerns about the contracts likely to be published? It will have significant bearing on our assessment of the proposals in the Bill, so it would be useful to have some indication of when the Minister expects the report to be published.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for being so succinct in her consideration of the clause. We welcome her colleague, the hon. Member for North Durham, back to his place, and I hope he will bear that comment in mind.

I welcome the hon. Lady’s amendment as it gives us the opportunity to discuss why we have included clause 2 in the Bill. We fully support the principle of being transparent with Parliament, but we do not believe that that needs to be embedded in legislation as such reporting requirements are already provided for in “Managing Public Money” and are placed on the Ministry of Defence departmental accounting officer. I will go on to address each of her questions, but to start I should stress that the clause has been designed to provide a fall-back option to be used as a last resort in circumstances where the GoCo company is in need of financial assistance and is unable to obtain it from the commercial market at acceptable rates.

We fully expect the contractor to be a financially robust company that will only very rarely need to seek financial assistance from the market and that, should it need to do so, the assistance required will be available on acceptable commercial terms. Therefore, this power to provide financial assistance to the contractor from the Secretary of State is anticipated to be required only in exceptionally rare circumstances and as a last resort to prevent the business from becoming insolvent and therefore to ensure business continuity from the MOD’s perspective. Such continuity is clearly critical, given the national security implications of the role that will be played in procuring equipment for our armed forces. We must ensure that the business in question is available under all circumstances. That is the impact and the purpose of the clause.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

I thank the Minister for those comments. If a company is on the verge of becoming insolvent, the MOD will lend them money on tight financial and commercial lines. Is there a line over which the MOD will not step? If a company is on the rocks, albeit a company carrying out work for the MOD, there surely has to be a limit beyond which the MOD will not go. If the company is not robust enough, even with assistance, to pick itself off the floor that clearly has to be an issue. We cannot simply carry on throwing good public money after bad.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

I completely accept that point. That is why the Secretary of State retains the power through the special share to bring the operations back under MOD control. The circumstances where that might apply, during the duration of a contract, are precisely the kind of circumstances that the hon. Lady envisages.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Moor View)

I appreciate the Minister’s patience. In that case, we need to be clear that the assessment of those contracts as they are running is extremely effective. The CDM talked about the method he was working on and working with in monitoring projects and ensuring that they do not overrun. I assume that the Minister is happy with that and that it will continue.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

There is a distinction between the monitoring of the procurement of the underlying contracts and the monitoring of the contract with GoCo. The clause is designed to allow the MOD to fund shortfalls in available funds that GoCo requires to keep its operations going—to pay the staff and fund any outgoings of GoCo in doing its duty—rather than failures in its procurement of contracts, which are an MOD risk in the first place.

Russell Brown (Labour, Dumfries and Galloway)

Rather than just painting us a picture, will the Minister give us an indication of monetary value or of percentage terms? Opposition Members might feel more comfortable with that.

Philip Dunne (Conservative, Ludlow)

Yes and no. The power as drafted is unlimited in amount. As I indicated earlier, the operating costs of GoCo in its first phase are in the order of £400 million and in its second just under £1 billion a year. It is inconceivable that this power would be called upon for such amounts. We are talking about funding the GoCo for a short time in the event of some unforeseen calamity preventing the company from accessing funds to pay its bills, continue to operate and function on behalf of the MOD. In the event that that situation persisted for a period, it is much more likely that the Secretary of State would use his powers under the special share to take back control, rather than continue funding under the emergency regime. I cannot really quantify that for the hon. Gentleman, but it is most unlikely that the situation would endure beyond a year and that the entire cost of GoCo’s operation would fall back on the MOD.

The rest of the debate is in Hansard.