High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill
Public Bill Committee, 11 July 2013.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
An additional witness will be appearing this morning, so we need to amend the programme order.
Examination of Witnesses
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
We will now hear oral evidence from the British Chambers of Commerce and Transport Scotland. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all hon. Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and that we must stick to the timings in the programme order that the Committee has agreed although, as has been pointed out, we are allowed to finish earlier.
For the record, would our new witnesses please introduce themselves to the Committee with their name and position?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
I am sorry; I am having difficulty hearing.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Lilian Greenwood, would you like to start the questioning?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
May I begin with a question specifically to Dr Marshall? Would you like to comment on the controversies over the project’s cost-benefit ratio? Do you think the modelling looks at the right areas, especially with regard to the productivity of passengers travelling on trains?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Do you want to spell out a bit more what you think the benefits are and why you think high-speed rail is needed, from a business perspective?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
How important is the full Y network for business? We heard a lot, particularly on Tuesday, about improving connections between Birmingham and London, and obviously quite a lot of the focus is on the west coast main line. But what about the links between the core cities, in particular between the core cities in the midlands and the north? Would you comment on that?
Alan Reid (Liberal Democrat, Argyll and Bute)
Mr Lloyd, can you tell us what the Scottish Government’s policy is regarding High Speed 2?
Alan Reid (Liberal Democrat, Argyll and Bute)
Some witnesses have suggested that high-speed rail would simply suck jobs into London. I presume, from what you have said, that you disagree with that? Can you tell us why you believe it will be good for Scotland?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Mr Lloyd, I want to follow up some of the questions that Mr Reid has just asked. You will be aware that the Bill contains no reference to extending the line north of Manchester and Leeds towards Edinburgh and/or Glasgow. Do you think that such an extension should be included in clause 1?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Are you satisfied with the working relationship that you, as an executive agency of the Scottish Government, have with the Department for Transport of the UK Government? Are you working well together on this project?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
As you have alluded to, both the first phase and the second phase will help deliver faster inter-city journey times to Glasgow and Edinburgh, but there is an issue with the type of rolling stock that would be used. At the moment, the tilting Pendolino trains allow quite fast journey times to Glasgow. If the high-speed trains do not tilt, the time gain on the high-speed part might be offset by slower journey times.
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Is that something that you are focused on?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Do you think that problem could be solved by designing a particular type of rolling stock? I am not an engineer, so I do not know whether it is feasible to have a high-speed train that tilts. Or is it something that would have to be addressed by extra line infrastructure north of Manchester?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
This is addressed to Dr Marshall. If the British Chambers of Commerce think that High Speed 2 is a cracking good thing, on the basis of what he regards as a faulty cost-benefit analysis, assuming that the benefits are greater and the costs are less, why, as a private sector organisation, does he think that the Chambers Of Commerce think the taxpayer should take the risk, and not the private sector offering to do this cracking good scheme?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
May I come back to cost-benefit analyses? I was in favour of the channel tunnel link, and I was the first person, I think, to suggest that it came into St Pancras. The cost-benefit analysis did not look too bad, but you would agree that the number of passengers—the current level of passengers—is roughly half what was included in the original cost-benefit analysis.
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
The British Chambers of Commerce has said that it supports High Speed 2 in principle, but that it must meet certain conditions. What are they?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
The chambers of commerce are strong proponents of small and medium-sized enterprises.
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
But as the compensation stands at the moment, businesses would not be covered by the compensation scheme. Why is not that one of your conditions?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
You talked about the need to control costs. Do you think Government have everything in place to control costs satisfactorily, or is there something else you would like to see being put in place now, when we are thinking about the principle of taking this forward?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Could I just pick up on HS2 Ltd? You spoke about confidence. Both you and Mr Lloyd, perhaps, could comment on your experience of HS2 Ltd. We have had a rather mixed bag of feedback and it would be useful to know whether you think there is anything they could do better, or things that you think they are doing particularly well, that you could share with us, in terms of our having the confidence that it is they are the right instrument to take this project forward.
Karen Lumley (Conservative, Redditch)
Dr Marshall, how important is it for your members that there is a direct link between HS1 and HS2?
Khalid Mahmood (Labour, Birmingham, Perry Barr)
Dr Marshall, we have had witnesses here, particularly from Euston and the local authority concerned, talking about the businesses there that are being hugely adversely affected by this development. Have you had any discussions with them?
Khalid Mahmood (Labour, Birmingham, Perry Barr)
Are you happy with that?
Nicky Morgan (Conservative, Loughborough)
We have heard varying evidence about job creation. Dr Marshall, I notice that in your submission you talked about this being transformative infrastructure project and about it creating jobs, but I also note your comments about capacity. We heard evidence earlier this week about the number of jobs that could be created around a railway station, in particular thousands of jobs near Manchester Piccadilly, but we have also heard evidence that those jobs will be created by moving jobs from elsewhere, so that they congregate around a station. We all want to create lots of jobs; I just wondered what the British Chambers of Commerce view on job creation and this scheme is. Mr Lloyd, I am putting this question to Dr Marshall, but you may have a view as well from the Scottish perspective.
Nicky Morgan (Conservative, Loughborough)
And the Scottish view?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Mr Lloyd, can you quantify in financial terms the economic benefit to the central belt of Scotland and the rest of Scotland if high-speed rail is extended north to Edinburgh and/or Glasgow?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Obviously you will be aware that a certain referendum is to take place in Scotland next year. If there was a positive vote—let me rephrase that, because it would certainly not be positive if there was a yes vote. If there was a yes vote, what impact would Scotland becoming independent have on the project extending high-speed rail to the central belt of Scotland?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
So we are indeed better together. A final question, if I may. We touched earlier on the potential of a high-speed link between Glasgow and Edinburgh, and I think you mentioned that a business case for that was being drawn up by the Scottish Government and that there will be a report on that in due course. Do you have any more definitive timelines on that in terms of potential construction start dates and finishes? How would it be funded?
Alan Reid (Liberal Democrat, Argyll and Bute)
Mr Lloyd, could you explain to the Committee why it is necessary for the Scottish Parliament to pass the legislative consent motion?
Alan Reid (Liberal Democrat, Argyll and Bute)
I am trying to get to why it is necessary under the devolved settlement. Would the cost of the stretch between the Scottish border and Glasgow and Edinburgh fall on the Scottish Government if the legislative consent motion were not passed? Is that the reason?
Alan Reid (Liberal Democrat, Argyll and Bute)
Has any thought been given to where in Scotland the route would go or where any new stations might be required?
Alan Reid (Liberal Democrat, Argyll and Bute)
Do you see the track following the same route as the existing tracks from Carlisle to Glasgow and Edinburgh?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Dr Marshall, I have been trying to represent the interests of the small businesses at Euston for the past three years, and I have to say that they do not think this is early days. Their businesses have been blighted for the past three years. Some of the restaurants have had to postpone decisions about whether to renew their kitchens and such like. Particularly on Drummond street, there is a large number of small shops and small restaurants, and surveys have shown that they are between 40% and 70% dependent on passing trade from Euston. They have had no satisfaction whatever from High Speed 2, and I think it would be quite useful—I understand the same applies to businesses all along the designated route—if you undertook to ensure that the chambers of commerce start making representations on their behalf. Perhaps HS2 Ltd will take some notice of you, because it certainly does not take any notice of the businesses.
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Can I also make the point that, as currently intended, these business people who will be put out of business will be entitled to no compensation whatever? Their premises are not going to be demolished; it is just that there will be a sort of Berlin wall between them and their principal source of customers.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
I remind Members that we should be asking questions, rather than making comments.
Simon Burns (Conservative, Chelmsford)
May I ask Dr Marshall whether he is aware that, on the question of business compensation, particularly for small and medium-sized businesses within the safeguarded area, they will be eligible for compensation under the national compensation code? Is he aware that there will also be other areas where they may be able to seek compensation for reasonable costs and expenses with regard to relocating and so on? For Drummond street, HS2 Ltd very much wants to work with Camden council to seek a solution to the problems.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
I am sure the Minister would like a response to that question.
Simon Burns (Conservative, Chelmsford)
May I have a follow-up question?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Yes, of course.
Simon Burns (Conservative, Chelmsford)
Could Dr Marshall confirm that in my original question he heard me say that HS2 Ltd is most anxious to discuss with Camden a solution to the problems of Drummond street?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Thank you for that. I am sure Lilian Greenwood will ask a question.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
I have questions for both the witnesses. Dr Marshall, you were very clear in your earlier answers that dealing with limited rail capacity is vital to businesses. In my own discussions with businesses, they often mention road congestion. Do you feel that that poses similar problems for businesses, and to what extent will HS2 help in addressing such challenges?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
To follow that up: do you think it would be helpful if the Government were to publish an overarching transport strategy?
Kris Hopkins (Conservative, Keighley)
In a previous sitting, we heard from Sir Richard Leese and others about the positive, enthusiastic voices in the north-west—Greater Manchester, Yorkshire and Humberside—with the exception of Wakefield and Bradford councils, whose political leaders have come out and said they do not support it. Have you engaged with the local chambers of commerce in those cities, and do you know what their position is?
Some of the people opposing the route have put out the argument that employment and business opportunities would be sucked away from cities around the main hubs and stations. Have you received any feedback from local chambers on that? Although it was said the other day that 70% of the jobs will be created in London, the evidence suggests that 70% of the jobs will be created outside London. Do your colleagues across the country, even if they do not have a station nearby, believe there will be a benefit to them and the broader communities around the main station hubs?
Kris Hopkins (Conservative, Keighley)
As a quick follow-up to that, Coventry city council, I understand, was originally opposed to it, but after some engagement has changed its mind and has come on board. Bear in mind that those two councils are in locations that have made significant contributions to the economy of west Yorkshire. Do you see a role for yourself in trying to influence their behaviour and their lack of support in a more positive way?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Mr Lloyd, given what you said in response to an earlier question about your concerns that the Y network might bring Manchester and Leeds closer to London and potentially make Scotland seem further away, I was surprised that you did not seem to support the idea that Scotland should be named in clause 1. Is that right?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Can you say a little more about what benefits you think will accrue to Scotland if Glasgow and Edinburgh are connected to the high-speed links via Manchester and Leeds, even if they have not got new direct high-speed lines through?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
What benefits do you think there will be from the connections, even if there are not further high-speed lines linking Manchester and Leeds directly to Glasgow and Edinburgh?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
May I press you further on the point that my Front-Bench colleague raised in relation to your view—I raised this as a question earlier—that it was not particularly necessary to include Edinburgh and Glasgow in the Bill? Is that the view of the Scottish Government?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
So you are saying that the Scottish Government are perfectly content that mention of Edinburgh and Glasgow is not made in the Bill?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Thank you. We are now approaching the end of time, Minister.
Simon Burns (Conservative, Chelmsford)
Presumably, Mr Lloyd and the Scottish Government are content with the Bill because clause 1(2)(a) simply lists all those areas where the train is actually going to, as a fact, in existing proposed legislation. The critical words, “at least”, are there, enabling the addition at future dates, if necessary, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or anywhere else in mainland United Kingdom.
Simon Burns (Conservative, Chelmsford)
Thank you.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
If Members have no further questions for these witnesses, we shall move on. I thank the witnesses from whom we have just heard.
Examination of Witness
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Welcome. For the record, will the new witness introduce themselves to the Committee?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Good morning, Professor Hall. Could you briefly outline for the Committee your research comparing British and French investment in rail and how it relates to the current debate over High Speed 2?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Thank you very much.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
That is a really helpful and comprehensive answer. I am interested that you seem to be suggesting that, if we develop a high-speed line and do the kind of regional development and local transport networks around it, it can in fact help to provide regional growth not just in the cities that have stops but in the wider area. Would you say that is a fair assessment of what you have just said?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
I would not expect the professor to be necessarily aware of this as it is quite a recent proposal, but the Greater Birmingham and Solihull local economic partnership has, as one of its more ambitious proposals for regeneration, the building of a light railway system to link the black country to the new interchange station at Birmingham International, coming via the Jaguar Land Rover plants. Similarly, it is looking at a southern extension through Solihull to Stratford-upon-Avon and on to Redditch with a view to the tourist interests of people flying into Birmingham International and then accessing a tourist hotspot such as Stratford. Does the professor think that that is the kind of connectivity that would irrigate a region such as the west midlands?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
How did the French regional authorities fund that local connectivity?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Peter, having asked awkward questions of my good friend Richard Leese, I now have to ask awkward questions of an even older friend. Would you agree that most of the benefits in France seem to spring from local work and local connectivity rather than the high-speed link? I think back to the 1960s when—I cannot remember why, but I seem to remember—you were opposed to the Euston-Manchester electrification.
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
To follow on from that point, I accept that connectivity with high-speed rail destinations is important. Have you had the opportunity to look at the plans for the northern hub, the Leeds-Manchester electrification and some of the other improvements in the north-west and Yorkshire? Do you think that those would deliver sufficient connectivity, or does further work need to be done?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
I wondered what your view was on extending high-speed rail further north than Leeds and Manchester into Scotland and in particular connecting with Edinburgh and/or Glasgow.
Martin Vickers (Conservative, Cleethorpes)
Professor, you highlighted the danger that the core cities will benefit greatly at the risk of the opposite happening in the surrounding regions, and you also pointed out areas not connected to that, and mentioned the east coast; that fits my constituency on Humberside, as well. Would you accept that we can achieve greater connectivity to those areas with the spare capacity created as a result of the transfer traffic to HS2?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
From your perspective, have you got any observations about the appropriateness and capacity of HS2 Ltd to carry out this work? Is there anything that you would like them to do that they are not doing, or anything that they are doing that you particularly applaud?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
I very much want to follow up the point you were making, Professor Hall. The National Audit Office concluded that at this stage the evidence for High Speed 2 supporting regional growth was unclear. I hope that that is why there is some action on that by HS2 Ltd. How do you think the Department for Transport’s assessments of costs and benefits factor in the impact on regional growth; and do you think they have given that enough attention? I am guessing, from what you said, that you do not.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
We are now approaching the end of this session. We have two minutes for a very brief question.
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Cost-benefit analysis includes two things: guessing the benefits, and trying to guess the costs. Are you aware that, in the cost estimates for Euston, it looks as though HS2’s original estimate was roughly half of the revised estimated cost of the major scheme, which they then abandoned?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Given what you said about the importance of making sure that the high-speed line connects to the wider network, do you think there is enough classic-compatible stock to serve all the further places off it? Do you think there would be merit in considering whether HS2 Ltd should sit separate from our infrastructure provider, Network Rail?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Is there likely to be enough classic-compatible rolling stock?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
I am sorry to interrupt, but we have run out of time. I thank the witnesses on behalf of the Committee.
Examination of Witnesses
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
I remind all hon. Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we should stick to the timings in the programme motion, which the Committee has agreed. I hope I will not have to interrupt someone mid-sentence, but obviously I will do that if need be.
I welcome our new witnesses. For the record, please will they introduce themselves to the Committee with their name and title?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Good afternoon. What fares and ticketing policies would each of you like to see in place for the new line?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Richard, what steps have been taken to ensure that stations on the high-speed line are integrated with public transport and are accessible to pedestrians and cyclists?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Mr Hewitson, in your written evidence you referred to the potential for more local services. But public awareness about how the freed up capacity can be used seems to be really limited. Would you agree with that assessment and, if so, why do you think the case has not got through to the wider public?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Mr Hewitson, I would like to follow up your point about fares on HS2. I think I am right in saying that on the French TGV network, tickets are issued is entirely by reservation in advance.
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Is that something you would be concerned about on HS2?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
To clarify, you would be content with an all-reservation system, provided it could be done up to a few hours before?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
When the Transport Committee considered ticketing, we were given to understand that the fare structure would not be dissimilar from the classic network’s.
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Well, there is a ticketing review going on generally. Is it still your understanding that HS2 will not have a premium fare structure?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Can you confirm that virtually every survey of passenger concerns mentions the price of tickets? Secondly, do you seriously think that HS2 will not charge a substantial premium?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
If you think the west coast main line, as it is at present, will be sufficiently attractive in terms of time and will compete effectively with the new railway, why are we having the new railway?
Nicky Morgan (Conservative, Loughborough)
We might have already exhausted this, but I want to ask about capacity. Perhaps I can start with you, Mike Hewitson. You talked about the need to have a debate. Take us further forward. How do we have that debate? What do passengers—the people you represent—want to hear about capacity, and how do you get across to them what services they will get? For example, they might get a seat on a service, which they do not get at the moment.
Nicky Morgan (Conservative, Loughborough)
This is a question for both of you. We heard a lot this morning and on Tuesday about connectivity, the importance of where HS2 will stop and how it will be connected. At the Nottinghamshire stop—the east midlands stop—it is going to be connected by tram. Do you have any views about the use of trams, light rail systems or anything else?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
How do both of you see high-speed rail fitting in with a wider transport strategy for the United Kingdom?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Okay. Would there be greater benefits to the UK if the project were to extend into Scotland?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
You mentioned the issue of connecting up with other key parts of the transport network. At present, west coast main line trains do not run early enough in the morning to meet flights at Birmingham international airport. That cannot be a capacity problem, because it is off-peak. Because it is a night-flying restricted airport, the first flights out of Birmingham are at 6.10 am, and there are no trains to get people there. Would you envisage the new high-speed rail being able to help with that situation?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
Could I ask a supplementary question about ticketing? Outside London, in the regions, there is always an aspiration about the possibility of through trains from those regions on to the continent. Clearly, Birmingham airport could be a point of embarkation in terms of clearing passport control. Would you envisage through-ticketing arrangements to the continent? If you have not been asked this question, what do you think about the HS2-HS1 link?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Do you have any observations on the effectiveness, capacity or capability of HS2 Ltd?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
How responsive have you found HS2 Ltd and the Government to ideas and suggestions coming forward in this process, either at national level or at community forum level?
Karen Lumley (Conservative, Redditch)
You talked about Meadowhall and the issues facing that. Do you see any issues facing the Curzon Street site in Birmingham?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
In your discussions with High Speed 2, what have they said about premium rates for tickets?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
My other question is: why do you reject the proposals from 51m to improve the services at vastly less expense than the £50 billion for HS2?
Martin Vickers (Conservative, Cleethorpes)
Mr Hebditch, in your written evidence on carbon emissions you say that there would be considerable savings over 60 years, but that if the wrong decisions are made it could increase emissions. Have any wrong decisions been taken up to now and which potential wrong decisions do we need to avoid?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
Just for a minute, I was reminded of that announcement that is made on the high-speed train in France, “On atteint la grande vitesse.” We have arrived at our top speed.
I wanted to ask you about passenger experience because this is very important for your contribution. I was reminded the other day of the problem for foreign visitors in this country, when a French friend complained that it is difficult for foreign visitors to understand the different train operators on each line. Like the rest of us, when they look online at ticket prices they tend to go for the cheapest ticket. Who would not? But what they often do not realise is that some of those journey times can be double. For example, if you catch the midland main line service that goes via Northampton, it can take you two hours or more to get to London; if you use the west coast main line it should be an hour and 10 minutes from Birmingham International. Very often those visitors are caught out once they are on the train—I have been there and there is not much mercy given if you have the wrong ticket on the wrong train. What could be done in terms of transferability or making it very clear to people when there is differential pricing, so that they are not caught out?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
Are you aware that because the national exhibition centre is at Birmingham International, this is a significant problem for foreign visitors travelling from London to the NEC?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
If Members have no further questions—
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Is there time for a quick question?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
We are down to seconds. How quick can you be?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
My question is for Mr Hewitson. Do you expect HS2 to feature in the fares and ticketing review and do you think there is anything to be learnt from HS1’s fare structure?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Order. I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions of this panel. I thank you on behalf of the whole Committee.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
For the record, please would the new witnesses introduce themselves to the Committee—their name and organisation.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Good afternoon. This question is primarily for Mr Morgan and Ms Shaw. It took more than two years to get the hybrid Bill for HS1 through Parliament, and it took three and a half years to pass the hybrid Bill for Crossrail. I wanted your comments on whether those Bills were subjected to any unnecessary delays. Do you think that the Government’s timetable for passing the HS2 hybrid Bill by May 2015 is realistic?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Mr Hayter, in your recent “State of the Nation” report, you said that the delivery of the project could be sped up. Is that assessment purely from an engineering perspective, or do you think that the consultation and legislative timetables could also be hastened?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Mr Morgan, could you say a bit about Crossrail’s apprenticeship programme and what discussions you have had with HS2 Ltd about how it could deliver apprenticeships as part of its project? May I ask you to cover in your reply Crossrail’s commitment to delivering one apprenticeship for every £3 million spent and how that ratio was reached?
Nicky Morgan (Conservative, Loughborough)
Ms Shaw, in your written evidence you stated that since its construction, the railway has been a catalyst for growth and regeneration, delivering broad transport, economic and regeneration benefits to London and the south-east, which is good to hear. Is there anything you want to add?
Nicky Morgan (Conservative, Loughborough)
A question for all three of you: do you think that there is a nervousness in this country about big civil engineering projects, and that sometimes we do not think big enough? This might be particularly for Steven. We have seen with the Olympics that we were able as a country to deliver a big project on time and on budget. Do you think that might be why there is nervousness around HS2—it is just so big that perhaps we are biting off more than we can chew?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Ms Shaw—this may be a question for Mr Hayter, too—you mention the importance of the transfer of knowledge. Have you contemplated transferring to HS2 the knowledge that Walt Bell, the huge man from Bechtel who masterminded HS1, decided that it was better to have a double-bore tunnel all the way from Barking to St Pancras, rather than face the construction risks of running it along the North London line? Yet HS2 has announced that it wants the line to run along the North London line because there are fewer construction risks, despite the fact that it will come out of a five-mile tunnel that it is going to bore.
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Do you think he has forgotten, then?
Martin Vickers (Conservative, Cleethorpes)
My question is similar, but perhaps slightly broader. Ms Shaw, are you satisfied that mistakes made in HS1 have been learned from and that none are being carried forward into the new programme?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Terry Morgan and Nicola Shaw, do you believe that the benefit-cost ratios of High Speed 1 and Crossrail adequately reflected their economic impact?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
A question to Steven Hayter and Terry Morgan. In ICE’s written evidence, it is stated that the indirect costs of tunnelling may be higher in the UK than in Europe, particularly in the light of the experience of Crossrail. Are there ways for that cost gap to be closed?
Karen Lumley (Conservative, Redditch)
It is obviously important that there is a direct link between HS1 and HS2. How closely are you working with HS2, and how do find working with them?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
I was going to check that you are content with the design and location of the Old Oak Common interchange. We heard also from Camden on Tuesday, who argued that rather than rushing to deal with Euston, Old Oak Common could act as an effective temporary interchange to allow time to get Euston right. Have you any views on that?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
You have experience of vehicles similar to HS2 Ltd. Does it look to you as though HS2 Ltd has the effectiveness, capability and capacity to do the job that it is being asked to do?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Steven, what is your experience of engaging with HS2 Ltd?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
You mentioned Thames tideway a couple of times. I want to return to the theme of whether we have potential constraints on the availability of engineers. You just mentioned demobilising on Crossrail. The tunnel underneath the Thames, at an estimated cost of £4 billion, is another huge infrastructure project in London, but the construction of High Speed 2 would take a team out of London. Are you satisfied that we have enough engineers in the pipeline? Do you think that the Government could do more to ensure that engineers are coming through?
Those who study engineering at university do not always go into engineering. That is a difficult degree—it takes four years and has high A-level requirements—so, in relation to the viability of the project, is there anything that we should bear in mind in terms of potential constraint there?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Going back to the transfer of knowledge, I was an advocate of both High Speed 1 and Crossrail. When problems arose with designs, and with local people and local businesses, both organisations were exemplary in dealing with those problems and responding to consultations by actually listening and doing something. Can you possibly advise HS2 that the process of consultation requires a response from them which reflects what has been said to them by the people affected?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
I should like to return to the link between HS1 and HS2. Do you think sufficient research and modelling has been done to assess the likely demand of through trains from, say, Birmingham to Brussels, in the day, and also the potential for night-time freight movements between HS2 and HS1, to assess whether the North London line link will be sufficient in capacity or whether something else is required?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
To clarify, at the moment your best guess is that the North London line link will be sufficient, but there is still further research work that is ongoing and not concluded.
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
That may lead to a view that some other link between the two is required.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
I have a question for each of the witnesses. Mr Hayter, what assessment have you made of the various alternative packages to achieve improvements in capacity that have been put forward by critics of HS2?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
I was really asking about the alternative ways of providing extra capacity based on upgrades to the existing rail network. Is that something you have looked at?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Ms Shaw, I wonder whether you can address the question about why passenger numbers on HS1 are fewer than was originally projected. What role have higher and premium fares played in deflating passenger numbers?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Mr Morgan, there has been a lot of concern around the increase in projected costs for HS2. Perhaps some people assume that it is impossible to deliver infrastructure projects in anything like their initial cost envelope. Can you say anything about how successful Crossrail has been at staying within its initial £15.9 billion budget? From your experience, what lessons are there for HS2?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
This session is all about lessons learnt from previous projects. Can you share your thoughts about compensation? Other witnesses have indicated that there are still some protracted disputes about compensation for land taken for the construction of High Speed 1. With hindsight, might you have done things differently? Do you have a view about property bonds, and could we have your received wisdom on compensation?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
Do you have your property bonds?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Steven, in your written submission you said that the economic case for HS2 is strongest if it is part of a network connecting northern cities and Scotland. Why do you believe phase 2 is so important to the project’s overall success?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
I am just going to interrupt the flow for a moment. It looks as if a vote is anticipated. If it comes at about 3.25 it might be more appropriate to end this question session then, because we will need to suspend for 15 minutes. Obviously, we do not know quite when the vote will be called, but I suggest that we handle the questions as concisely as possible.
Nicky Morgan (Conservative, Loughborough)
Mrs Brooke, may I propose that we might then extend the next witness session to reflect the additional 15 minutes that the Division will take? The Rail Freight Group would run until 4.15, and then the session after that would run until 5 o’clock.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Yes, let us do that.
Kris Hopkins (Conservative, Keighley)
Thank you, Mrs Brooke, and thank you to the panel for giving some time to come and speak to us. An initial observation would be that engineering and project management do sound exciting. I think we ought to harness this and sell it to some of our students.
Mr Morgan, earlier you mentioned the idea of ensuring that there is sufficient capacity in a budget to anticipate something that you have not even thought of yet. That sounds a bit more Mystic Meg than scientific. Is there a process? How do you come to that figure that you have built into the budget?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
My question is for Mr Hayter in particular. You referred to what is called the upgrade of the west coast main line. I take it that you agree that only £2 billion was spent on the upgrade and the other £7 billion was spent on maintenance, repairs and replacement right along the track to make up for the fact that nothing had been spent on it for about 60 years. In view of that and as 51m is only proposing major works at the Stafford bypass and Ledburn junction, do you think that it is reasonable to suggest that there would be such obstruction on the west coast main line if their proposals were carried out, particularly as Network Rail is proposing doing both major works anyway?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Are there any remaining questions, having rushed us along? No. I thank our witnesses for their participation. That brings us to the end of this panel, because there are no remaining questions. I suspend the sitting for 15 minutes for the anticipated vote.
Examination of Witness
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
The evidence session is now resumed. We will now hear oral evidence from Tony Berkeley on behalf of the Rail Freight Group. I understand that written evidence has been submitted, which will be considered in due course by the Committee; we can confirm that.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Could you set out the capacity challenges that are facing the rail freight industry, and do you believe that high-speed rail will release enough capacity to meet them?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Very reasonable.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
What assessment have you made of the various alternative schemes that groups that are sceptical about HS2—51m and so on—have put forward? I am sure you are familiar with those groups. Do you think that they adequately account for the growth in freight traffic?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
I think it makes sense to ask you whether you think the proposed connection between the two lines is sufficient.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Do you think the connection between the two high-speed lines is necessary?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
I am a west midlands manufacturing MP. It is noticeable that freight has had to come off the west coast main line and has to some extent gone on to the Chiltern line. A lot of it has had to go on to the roads. Does your 40% forecast of increased rail freight take account of the renaissance of the automotive industry in the west midlands?
At the moment, the vehicles have to come down by road to Southampton to the docks for export to China and India. Has the electrification of the railway between Nuneaton and Coventry made any difference at all to a freight pinchpoint? Is there anything more we can do when considering the Bill to ensure that the knock-on impact of rail freight is not overlooked, at a time when manufacturing is recovering?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
There have been attempts by the freight industry to move more on to rail for an off-peak access to Euston station, but I understand that that has gone on to the back burner. What are the implications of the proposed redevelopment of Euston station for that rail-freight gateway?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
You are not worried that the proposed development of a high-speed train embarkation point will conflict with that?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
You described the current suggestion for a connection between HS1 and HS2 as a “crazy scheme”. You have put forward an alternative proposal. Can you just say a little bit more about your proposal and how that would address issues in a way that the current scheme does not?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Thank you for that. Can I check a couple of other things? We heard from Camden on Tuesday, who argued that Old Oak Common should be used while time is taken to get Euston right. Is that something you would support? Secondly, what response have you had from High Speed 2 Ltd on your proposals?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
How have you found HS2 Ltd?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
I should like to go back to the alternative proposals that 51m have put forward. When I asked them, they did not have the information to hand, but subsequently they sent me it. The summary conclusion is that the Felixstowe to Nuneaton upgrade will be sufficient to meet west coast main line increased capacity. Is that your view?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Have you looked at the likely demand for rail freight on the west coast main line, from the London gateway port development?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Will that traffic largely go up the west coast main line?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
I will not ask you about services to and from Milton Keynes.
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
I will not ask you.
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Mr Berkeley, you are obviously aware that in the Bill there is mention of phase 1 and phase 2, but not an extension of phase 2 or, indeed, a phase 3. Would you support the extension of high-speed rail northwards, from Leeds and Manchester, into the central belt of Scotland?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Or indeed by congestion on the motorways.
Martin Vickers (Conservative, Cleethorpes)
First, I want to ask a supplementary to Nic Dakin’s question about the Berkeley-Bradshaw scheme. Tony, you said that there was not a lot of difference in cost. Are you talking about tens of millions, hundreds of millions, billions or another figure?
Martin Vickers (Conservative, Cleethorpes)
Going back to the 40% increase in freight, the High Speed 2 line is basically a north-south line that will release capacity on the classic network on the north-south route, but how much of the 40% is north-south? A lot of it is, of course, access to ports, which you have mentioned. As you know, the biggest port in terms of rail freight is Immingham in my constituency. It is not all going to benefit from the project.
Martin Vickers (Conservative, Cleethorpes)
Yes. That is fine. Thank you.
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
I would like to come back to what we will have to call the Berkeley-Bradshaw model, if that is all right by you. In evidence from Camden council, it was made very clear that the existing Euston station cut a swathe through a community. The costs of a new terminus for High Speed 2 at Euston were miscalculated, but the original sum was £1.2 billion, with, subsequently, another £400 million on top for a scaled-down version. Logically, I found that difficult to understand. The miscalculation is understandable, however, given the complexity.
In your scheme, would your proposal mean that the new station would be sufficiently far underground that it would be possible to achieve what the previous witnesses from Camden said that they would like to see, which a mixed development above the station in the same way that you see such happen at New Street? In terms of the Bill and its financial implications, if you could get a mixed development above the station, would that not offset the cost of tunnelling beneath it?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
If Members have no further questions for this witness, I thank you very much.
Examination of Witnesses
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Welcome. For the record, please will the new witnesses introduce themselves to the Committee?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
May I assume that Lilian Greenwood would like to start the questions?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Thank you, Mrs Brooke.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
I will just say that Karen Lumley is going to be second. [ Laughter. ]
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
How important are the relative benefits of increased capacity, regional growth and faster journeys in the overall case for high-speed rail?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Minister, can you say what fare structure you envisage for High Speed 2?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
HS2 Ltd has published proposed timetable changes to mainline services. Those changes—primarily reductions—seem to rest on assumptions about the proportion of passengers who will transfer from existing rail services to high-speed rail. How can that proportion be confidently predicted when you do not yet know HS2’s fares and ticketing structures?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
But how robust can those assumptions be when, as we have just heard from the Minister, there is no decision on what the fares and ticketing structures might be?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Can I ask you to check that your mobile phones are turned off, please? I think perhaps it is the panel, as this is the first time that we have had the problem all afternoon.
Karen Lumley (Conservative, Redditch)
We have heard an awful lot over the last two days about the lack of compensation for local businesses along the route. Can you clarify what compensation will be paid ?
Karen Lumley (Conservative, Redditch)
How soon will those proposals come forward?
Karen Lumley (Conservative, Redditch)
The additional ones, yes.
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
HS2’s expenditure has already increased from £773 million to £900 million in this Parliament. What confidence can we have that it will operate within that budget, and what checks and balances should be in place to ensure that that takes place?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
So, very different from the systems of control that you had in place when we got the movement in cost.
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
The other evidence that has come through fairly strongly, particularly from the Minister, is that for this to have the transformational effect which everybody wants there would need to be additional money spent within the regions on interconnectivity. Where will that money come from?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Can you be confident that the hybrid Bill will be passed by May 2015?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Over the last two days we have heard from various witnesses some specific concerns about the detail of the route, for example, the link to High Speed 1 by the North London line and the potential remodelling of Euston. To what extent are these alternative options still on the table, and is the extra contingency fund that has been announced there to cover these potential changes in design?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
There has been a lot of confusion about this additional sum of money, the contingency fund, which is quite a sizeable chunk of money. But is that not a standard level for major infrastructure projects of this size?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Minister, in my questioning of witnesses over the last few days you will have noticed that I raised the issue of Scotland. We are, however, both aware that there is no mention in the Bill of extending high-speed rail beyond Leeds and Manchester. I suspect that in your reply you may make reference to “including but not limited to”, which makes it a possibility, but that is not quite the same as saying that it will definitely happen. I would therefore be grateful for your comments on that.
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
I am most grateful, Minister.
Martin Vickers (Conservative, Cleethorpes)
I have a couple of questions. First, to Ms Munro, I think it is probably a fair summary of the evidence that we have heard to date that those organisations and individuals in favour of the scheme are very satisfied with their relationship with HS2, whereas those who are opposed to the scheme are very unhappy with their relationship in terms of communication and gaining information and so on. Is that a fair summary? Can you assure us that in future you will fully engage with opponents?
Martin Vickers (Conservative, Cleethorpes)
A question for the Minister, if I may. We have heard a lot of concern about Euston and the links between HS1, HS2 and the North London line and so on. Have you heard anything in the evidence so far to give you second thoughts on any of those issues?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
How much is the current estimate of the cost of the link, and is it included in the £17 billion for HS2?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
I am all ears.
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Sorry, I am talking about the link at the moment, not Euston.
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
And it is still £600 million?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Can I go on to what I think the Minister was answering? It is that the original estimate for a very large scheme at Euston was £1.2 billion. In the light of a revised estimate of what that scheme would cost, it was decided to have a much smaller scheme, which is going to cost £1.6 billion. What was the revised estimate of the cost of the large scheme that caused it to be abandoned?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
So it turned out that Arup’s estimate ended up being half what it should have been. Is Arup being paid for its original estimate?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
May I ask about one final factor? What are the estimated costs of the changes to the TfL tube system that will be required to cope with the additional number of passengers coming into Euston?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
May I come back to the business compensation? The information from the Minister is helpful but I would like to seek a little clarification on what he has just said.
Am I right in thinking that there has been no compensation available to business until the safeguarded area was declared—that businesses were not eligible for the hardship scheme? If that is correct, there have been three years when businesses have not been able to obtain any compensation. Therefore, would temporary loss of profits be retrospective to the moment when these businesses were blighted by the announcement in March 2010?
Also, if there is a dispute regarding the level of compensation for a business, where could the business appeal? How could we ensure fairness in settling any dispute about the business compensation that might well be debated, especially when it comes to temporary loss of earnings? What happens if a farm straddles the 120-metre safeguarded zone—fields are often considerably longer than 120 metres—and it was rendered unviable by part of the land being compulsorily purchased? Would only the land purchased be compensated, or would the farmer be compensated for the consequential unviability of his business?
Kris Hopkins (Conservative, Keighley)
Minister, the comments made about businesses earlier on will be welcomed by many businesses out there. I was wondering how you were disseminating that message. How are you communicating with those businesses?
Kris Hopkins (Conservative, Keighley)
Yes.
Kris Hopkins (Conservative, Keighley)
On my second question, we have heard that Coventry city council had a rethink about its engagement—the lack of support, actually, for the process. In west Yorkshire, there are two authorities that have indicated their lack of enthusiasm, and I was wondering what opportunities for engagement there are for those councils and for chambers of commerce in particular, because Yorkshire chamber of commerce has also said that it has concerns. You can give some reassurance, you can listen to them and possibly get to a Coventry moment with those two authorities.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Order. Provided that the panel is willing to stay, I will extend the sitting by a final 15 minutes under Standing Order No. 88.
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Earlier today, we heard evidence from the Scottish Government executive agency, Transport Scotland. The witness indicated that Transport Scotland is content that there is no mention of Scotland in the Bill. Upon further questioning from me, the witness suggested that that is also the case for the Scottish Government, who are content that there is no mention of Edinburgh and Glasgow in the Bill. Minister, can you confirm that you have not been approached by the Scottish Government—Ministers or civil servants—to ask you to include Scotland in the Bill?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Yes.
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Thank you, Minister. I hear the words and they compute. Whether I agree with the position is another matter, but that is a debate for next week.
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Well, the big deal is—
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
The Minister stated his position, so rather than have a debate, we will take a further question from the panel rather than the witnesses.
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Thank you, Chair; I look forward to the debate next week.
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Can I ask Mr Prout to confirm what the Minister said in terms of any civil servant from the Scottish Government having approached the Department for Transport on the issue I just raised with the Minister?