High Speed Rail (Preparation) Bill
Public Bill Committee, 9 July 2013.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
I have a few preliminary announcements. First, please would right hon. and hon. Members ensure that all electronic devices are turned off or switched to silent mode during Committee sittings?
As a general rule, I and my fellow Chair do not intend to call starred amendments, which are those that have not been tabled with adequate notice. The required notice period in Public Bill Committees is three working days, therefore amendments should be tabled by the rise of the House on Monday for consideration on Thursday and by the rise of the House on Thursday for consideration on the following Tuesday. This Thursday is the deadline for amendments for the first day of line-by-line consideration on Tuesday next week.
Not everyone is familiar with the process of taking oral evidence in Public Bill Committees, so I shall briefly explain how we will proceed. The Committee will first be asked to consider the programme motion, on which debate is limited to half an hour. We will then proceed to a motion to report written evidence and then a motion to permit the Committee to deliberate in private in advance of the oral evidence sessions, which I hope we can deal with formally. Assuming that the second of those motions is agreed to, the Committee will move into private session, at which point non-Committee members will be asked to leave the room for a brief period. Once the Committee has deliberated in private, the witnesses and members of the public will be invited back into the room and our oral evidence session will begin.
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
In so far as the programme motion relates to the time given to witnesses, is it really appropriate that the Minister and HS2 Ltd should give evidence for only three quarters of an hour after we have had six or seven hours of evidence from other people?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
We are in a process wherein we make speeches at this stage, but if that is your speech, Mr Dobson, that is fine. I ask the Minister to wind up if he wishes to do so.
Simon Burns (Conservative, Chelmsford)
All I would say is that I think that that is a perfectly adequate period of time for the evidence sessions, because of course when the Committee goes into line-by-line consideration next week, right hon. and hon. Members on both sides will have an opportunity to raise issues, ask questions and seek information.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Copies of written evidence that the Committee receives will be available in the Committee Room.
Examination of Witnesses
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
We will now hear oral evidence from the London borough of Camden and Nottingham city council. I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and that we must stick to the timings in the programme motion the Committee has just agreed. I will have to interrupt mid-sentence if a session is still continuing at its scheduled finish time—apologies to our witnesses if that happens.
Members should declare any interests before the start of each panel in which that interest is relevant. I shall also ask our witnesses to declare any financial interests during the evidence sessions. Will the witnesses introduce themselves and tell us the positions they hold? I will then call Lilian Greenwood, who will commence the questioning for us this morning.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Councillor Hayward, in your submission you said you do not believe that High Speed 2 will deliver the Government’s strategic objectives. Do you believe that high-speed rail in general is a poor investment, or is your opposition based more on the details of this particular proposal?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
If the project does go ahead, what benefits would you like to see for the Euston area, and how do the proposals fall short?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Are there realistic options for developing Euston within its existing station envelope, to avoid the sort of disruption to the local area that you are concerned about?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
I know that you said specifically that you are dissatisfied with HS2 Ltd’s compensation proposals, and those are in the Bill. What compensation would you like to see available and what hopes do you have for the Government’s revised compensation package?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
I should explain that I come from a west midlands constituency, which will help you to understand where I am coming from. When High Speed 1 was built, the regions outside London were encouraged to think in terms of regional high-speed travel. In your evidence, you said that,
“there is no business case for the link to High Speed 1”
whereas in the regions beyond London, the link to High Speed 1 is important when considering High Speed 2. Your evidence focuses very much around Euston, but High Speed 1 comes out of St Pancras. Has your council looked at a connection to St Pancras if it is so difficult for Euston?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
To pursue that line of argument, if you clear immigration at Birmingham international airport and board a train at the interchange, after which you have a through train to Paris or Amsterdam, there is a significant advantage in not having to get off the train, come back through immigration and re-board the train.
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Sarah, could you explain to the Committee the physical impact of the proposal to use the North London line on the part of Camden that that line crosses?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
As far as you know, is the estimated cost of the HS2-HS1 link included in the current estimates that are bandied about?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
To follow on from Caroline Spelman’s questions about the link to HS1, would you be in favour of a link to HS1 that does not involve using the North London line? Is that your principal objection?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
To press this further, I understand—but I do not think it is practical—the idea of having a walking solution between the two stations. If there were a viable project to tunnel between the two, would you, as a council, object to that?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Finally, have you spoken to your colleagues in Newham council, who I believe advocate using Stratford International as a London hub for connecting HS2 to HS1?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
Sarah and Jane, can you tell us about your engagement with HS2 Ltd—its consultation with the community and the local authority?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
So there is some contact with the local authority?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
They are listening?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
But so far not too much engagement with the community?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
It is very interesting to listen to you talk about your engagement and the role of the council and the community. Are you aware that, in other local authorities, it is the council that takes the minutes and runs the working groups with the community, precisely because the elected representatives of the community are seen to have the interests of local people at heart? Those working groups are, of course, attended by High Speed 2 officials, who must answer all the questions that are put to them, but mostly electors feel reassured when the local authority holds the pen, don’t you think?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Jane, how do you see the advantages or otherwise to the east midlands? In particular, would you pick up on HS2’s suggestion of a station at Toton? Are there any issues of connectivity there, or is that the preference of people in the east midlands?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Are there any disadvantages to the east midlands if this does not go ahead?
Khalid Mahmood (Labour, Birmingham, Perry Barr)
Sarah, you keep saying that Euston to St Pancras is a seven or 10-minute walk. Have you considered the effect of this on people with disabilities, elderly people with baggage and families with really young children, again with considerable baggage? I am glad that we have some good weather today, but generally that is not the position in London or the UK. How would you address that?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Either Sarah or Jane, I would like to press you more on the issue of compensation. You have clearly indicated that you are not satisfied with the proposal coming from HS2 Ltd, and obviously you would like to see a revised compensation package coming from the Government; but have you been able to quantify financially what kind of compensation package you would like to see for your local community?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
Councillor Hayward, obviously your location means that a significant mix of businesses and houses are affected. You have referred to the 474 homes that would have to be demolished in phase 1, but do you know how many business properties are affected, and have you estimated what compensation would be due if business properties were eligible?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
The Bill mentions that the existing network should connect
“with the existing railway transport network.”
Do you think that is sufficient explanation in the Bill, or do you have concerns about the way that the high-speed rail line as proposed might connect with the existing so-called classic network?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
To return to the question of compensation, could you explain Camden’s concerns about the likely inadequate compensation for right-to-buy leaseholders of properties that might be affected?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
I would like to follow up a comment Sarah Haywood made about the onward journeys for passengers arriving at Euston. Would you not accept that a potential link with Crossrail at Old Oak Common would deflect a number of passengers from Euston? Secondly, in the recent spending review the Chancellor announced funding for a feasibility study for Crossrail 2, with many of the plans involving calling at Euston. Would that be sufficient to allay your concerns?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
You have both talked about the importance of good connectivity to HS2. Are the costs of that going to be borne by local authorities or are you being supported by HS2? Or is that not clear at the moment?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
A general question for both of you: in your experience, how effective is rail or transport infrastructure as a catalyst of economic growth?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Can you say a little more about what is needed in the project to make it act as the catalyst you have described it can be, but which it is not automatically? That is a question to both of you.
Karen Lumley (Conservative, Redditch)
In the midlands we have got huge capacity problems already. Can you just explain to us how you think HS2 will alleviate those in the east midlands?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Sarah, I think it might be useful for members of the Committee who are not familiar with the history if you were to spell out the opportunities that the original proposals for Euston, from HS2, held out for local people and businesses, and what has happened since they have revised the scheme and made it much less generous, shall we say.
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
That is interesting. I did not quite understand your submission when you talked about an
“additional £400m increase in the cost of constructing a smaller HS2 station at Euston than the original comprehensive station”.
What was the cost of the original comprehensive station that you outlined, and why will it be £400 million more if the project is smaller?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
I have a final quick question for Jane. You commented on being relatively satisfied with Toton as an alternative to Nottingham city centre. Trying to speak from an east midlands perspective, do you think that Toton is a better alternative than either Derby city centre or East Midlands Parkway, which other people might suggest would be appropriate?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
If Members have no further questions for this panel, we will move on to questions to the next panel. I thank both witnesses from whom we have just heard. We will now hear oral evidence from Manchester City Council, Staffordshire County Council and Geoff Inskip on behalf of Centro and Passenger Transport Executive Group.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
For the record, would the new panel introduce themselves to the Committee? In particular, I ask Geoff Inskip to tell us a little bit about his organisation.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
This is a question to all three members. What capacity and connectivity challenges do you face in relation to Manchester, the west midlands and, indeed, Staffordshire, and do you think that those will be addressed by this new line? What contribution will it make?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
We clearly have a slight problem, which is almost certainly due to a mobile phone switched on and being too close to the microphones. If you can deal with it, that would be good.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
I am sure you are aware of alternative packages put forward, particularly by opponents of the new line. Will those alternatives tackle the capacity problems described particularly in Manchester and the west midlands?
Nicky Morgan (Conservative, Loughborough)
One of the arguments in favour of HS2 is that it spreads economic benefits and growth throughout the country. This is a question for all three of you, but I will start with Sir Richard, who mentioned the Core Cities being very supportive of HS2. Perhaps you could expand on that. I am thinking of the opportunities that it brings—I represent the midlands seat of Loughborough—and the benefits that it can bring throughout the UK, rather than focusing economic growth, as we always do, on London.
Nicky Morgan (Conservative, Loughborough)
Specifically Mark Winnington, on that last point about the compensation package, I notice that in the points you put in writing to the Committee you said you believe the Bill is too widely drafted. It would seem to me that the wider the draft, the better, in the sense that that gives more scope for getting the compensation package right. Could you expand on the Staffordshire county council view of the Bill as being too widely drafted?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
I think I will move to Graeme Morrice.
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
It appears that the main focus of people in the north and the midlands is on improved connectivity, going southwards towards Birmingham and ultimately to London, and—I suppose—in turn into Europe as well. However, I was pleased, following the question that Nicky Morgan asked, that you, Sir Richard, spoke about improving connectivity northwards; in particular, you mentioned Preston and Newcastle. What is your view about including Glasgow and/or Edinburgh in the Bill, and what benefits would you see from those improved links going north into Scotland, on the basis that, as Nicky Morgan said, this project must benefit the whole UK?
I put the question first to Sir Richard.
Kris Hopkins (Conservative, Keighley)
Just to build on the economically positive contributions of High Speed 2, how do you think it will help the north of England economy, particularly Greater Manchester and the Leeds city region, and make a better contribution? There is lots of talk and evidence about the differences in the north-south economy. What will this do that cannot be done at the moment?
Kris Hopkins (Conservative, Keighley)
In Yorkshire, two authorities have come out very much against High Speed 2. You represent metropolitan authorities. What conversation is going on between the authorities who want to engage and think it is a benefit, and the Wakefields and Bradfords, which have come out against it?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Thank you for that. May I remind people that mobile phones need to be switch off because they affect the recording of this evidence?
Khalid Mahmood (Labour, Birmingham, Perry Barr)
This is a parochial question, so it is probably just to Geoff. First, I want to say how pleased we are with the investment currently going on in New Street station. It was hugely needed; there were huge issues with people with disabilities trying to use the service, and the investment will have a marked effect on that.
On HS2, there are two issues I want a bit of explanation on—first, the connectivity to New Street from Curzon Street, and how we deal with that, and secondly, the connectivity with the airport. If we are looking to put these sorts of resources back into the economy, both those issues need to be looked at.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Any further comments?
Simon Burns (Conservative, Chelmsford)
May I ask all three gentlemen if they are aware that the Secretary of State for Transport, last October, announced that work will be looked at in respect of the business case—the viability—of possibly extending High Speed 2 to a third phase, to Edinburgh and Glasgow? On the important point that has been made, particularly by Sir Richard and Mr Inskip, that other parts of the country might get a high-speed network, the Bill takes that into account, so it is valid for the future. Looking at clause 1(2)(a), one sees that it says:
“The network referred to in subsection (1) is a network which…involves the construction of railway lines connecting”—
and the crucial words are—
“at least”.
Then it lists a number of areas. The words “at least” allow for Edinburgh, Glasgow, Bristol, Liverpool, Cardiff—wherever—if the business case stacks up and there is a need in the future, so one would not have to come back to Parliament for another piece of legislation.
May I gently point out to Mr Winnington, who keeps saying in his evidence that the cost of High Speed 2 is £50 billion, that that is far from correct? It is £42.6 billion, of which £14.4 billion is contingency.
Simon Burns (Conservative, Chelmsford)
No. The rolling stock is separate. But the actual cost of High Speed 2—the building of it and the establishment—is £42.6 billion.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Can we have the questions in the right direction, please?
Simon Burns (Conservative, Chelmsford)
Good.
Simon Burns (Conservative, Chelmsford)
I could not agree with you more.
Simon Burns (Conservative, Chelmsford)
May I come back on that with a question?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
I think I had better let you have a question.
Simon Burns (Conservative, Chelmsford)
May I say to Sir Richard that he is absolutely right? One of the purposes of the Bill, among others, is that it cements the commitment to phase 1 and phase 2. He can rest assured that I am as anxious as he is that the legislative progress goes as swiftly as possible, so that we can get on with building this railway.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Minister, thank you for that question.
I have five names written down. We need to move at a pace now. I will let people ask one question, and I ask people giving evidence to be fairly brief and concise. We will keep going till the last second.
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
In the previous session, I asked a question about engaging with HS2. You have touched on it, but I would like to have your views. Is it engagement? Are they talking to you? Are they listening to you? Could they do better? Could they do a lot better?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
You have touched on airports. My Committee colleagues may not know what UK Central is, but as the constituency MP for Birmingham airport I know that that is at its heart. Perhaps you could share with the Committee what impact you see from the running times from Manchester and Birmingham airports. Should this be connected to Heathrow?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
Should it go to Heathrow?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Both Geoff and my good friend Richard—well, so far—
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
They have both emphasised the economic advantages of HS2. However, if Birmingham was given £10 billion of the £50 billion, and Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield and Liverpool £10 billion each, do you think that your first choice to improve things would be to club together to buy HS2?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
But not on HS2.
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Mr Winnington, you raised the important issue of mitigation measures, which you are laudably trying to secure for the route through Staffordshire. I wonder whether you have had an opportunity to consider the mitigation measures that were put in place for HS1 on its construction through Kent and London. Very similar concerns were raised there about noise and visual intrusion. Do you see that as an exemplar that needs to be followed for HS2, or does more need to be done?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Geoff, you mentioned the issues around Coventry earlier. Although the local authority now seems to be on board there are still concerns from local MPs, particularly about the impact of possible service reductions. Mark, in your evidence you talked about the impact of these possible service reductions. I ask all three of you what your view is on the balance between reducing existing mainline services, as proposed by HS2 Ltd, and providing the new services.
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
I don’t think either of those considerations applies in Camden Town.
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
As HS2 limits its proposals about reducing services and providing new services, do you think it is about right at the moment or does it need further working through?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
I wanted to ask about stops and stations, but slightly different questions to different people. The question for Geoff with his Birmingham hat on and Richard in relation to Manchester is that both Manchester and Birmingham get two stations, whereas some places get none; how can that be justified, in your opinion? Geoff, with your Pteg hat on, what is your view of the stations that have been chosen? Are they in the right places? Mark, should Staffordshire have a station? If so, where should it be?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Who would like to start?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
I think we have time for one more quick question.
Karen Lumley (Conservative, Redditch)
Do you think it is crucial that HS2 and HS1 are linked together?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Thank you. Are there any further questions from Members?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Just a final one. Are witnesses aware that the cost of the link is not presently included in the £50 billion?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Thank you for that. If Members have no further questions for this panel, we shall move on to question the next panel. I thank the panel very much.
Examination of Witness
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
We will now hear evidence from John Tomaney, professor of urban and regional planning at University College. Welcome. Please introduce yourself to the Committee and then we will start questions.
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Thank you. I call Lilian Greenwood to start the questioning. Then it would be good if other Members could indicate their wish to ask a question.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
You have looked at a number of different high-speed rail lines. Could you describe some of the main differences and similarities between them? How does the proposed UK line compare with those examples? Is there a clear comparator?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Your evidence has concentrated on the question of regional benefits—or not. We have heard this morning about the importance of capacity; Sir Richard Leese in particular said that without extra capacity, the northern economies would not just fail to thrive, but could go backwards. What is your opinion on the capacity arguments that have been put forward for the HS2 project in this country?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
You gave evidence to the Transport Committee when we considered high-speed rail, and your view, and that of other economists who gave evidence, was that just putting a high-speed line in would not in itself generate economic growth away from the main city; but that where there was, alongside the high-speed line, a development of good connectivity from the regional network, that could generate economic growth. Given that, with the plans to develop the northern hub and other regional networks, and the west midlands plans, do you think there is sufficient to see economic growth in those areas?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
Thank you. There is, however, significant investment going on in intra-regional networks, including the electrification between Leeds and Manchester and of the midland main line, and the whole northern hub proposals and those being developed in the west midlands. May I put the question to you again? Do you believe that those developments, plus HS2, will deliver the economic growth that the local authorities we have just heard from talked about?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
May I just ask you to check that your mobile phone is switched off?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
Somewhere we have a problem. I am sorry to interrupt.
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Of course, there are cities in the UK that are even further north, such as Edinburgh and Glasgow. What is your view about extending high-speed rail into Scotland? What would you see as the benefits for Scotland, particularly the central belt?
Martin Vickers (Conservative, Cleethorpes)
You said a moment ago that skills and the like were an important driver of regional economies. That is undoubtedly true, but the demand for those skills is dependent on investment in those areas. That investment to some extent, surely, is reliant on good connectivity.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
We heard this morning from Manchester, Birmingham and Nottingham, who were all confident about the potential economic benefits that would flow to their cities from HS2. When the Transport Committee looked at high-speed rail, it concluded that it seemed to have succeeded in bringing benefits to cities in Europe, particularly Lyon and Lille. Why do you think they are all wrong?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Does it not need to be seen in the context of the investment that is also going into regional transport networks? It is not happening on its own; as we heard earlier, in relation to High Speed 2 to Manchester, it sits within the northern hub developments.
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
When the impact of high-speed rail on the continent was studied, one of the consequences was a reduction in short-haul air travel, where people have taken trains rather than flying shorter distances. What do you think would happen to air travel as a result of the construction of High Speed 2?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
Given that this is a paving Bill for something that is going ahead, and that you rightly raise concerns about the net distribution of total benefits, what needs to happen to ensure we get better net distribution of total benefits as this moves forward?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
I do not want to use the word peripheral, but in relation to Manchester, do your studies show that if it gets the station on HS2, some jobs now in Oldham and Rochdale will go to Manchester?
Kris Hopkins (Conservative, Keighley)
My question relates to that last point about smaller towns tending to lose some economic activity and it going to the centre. That effect has gone on right since the beginning of the industrial revolution when people moved out of the fields, went into towns and there was the growth of the core cities. I am a former leader of Bradford council. The demise of the mills there saw a huge acceleration, because of connectivity, to the core city of Leeds and the wider economy has gained from that. That activity has not just happened because of HS2. It has gone on for the last couple of hundred years. Do you agree?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
I raised earlier the New Economics Foundation report. What did your research suggest that it got right, and what did it not get so right?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
How important do you think the improved connections between the cities of the midlands and the north could be, rather than with London? I say that in the context that, first, passenger numbers are growing faster between Birmingham and Manchester than between Birmingham and London and also, from my own perspective, I note that travelling from Nottingham to Birmingham or Leeds is currently very slow, but potentially it would be substantially better through HS2. How important could that be?
Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)
If Members have no further questions for this witness, I will thank the professor very much on behalf of the Committee. The Committee will sit again to take further evidence on the Bill at 2 pm today.
Examination of witnesses
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Good afternoon, colleagues, and welcome to this afternoon’s evidence session. This panel will finish at approximately 3 o’clock, so measure your questions accordingly. May I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves and their organisations?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Many thanks for that. We will kick off this afternoon’s session with Lilian Greenwood.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
One of the core arguments for the line is the capacity challenge that railways face, particularly on the west coast main line. In 2011, Network Rail undertook the west coast route utilisation strategy, and it found that a new line would be the most cost-effective way to meet that capacity demand. As an opener, it would be helpful if you explained why you disagree with that assessment.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
I know you accept that there is a capacity challenge to be tackled. Many people’s experience would be that on existing peak-time services on the west coast main line, many passengers are already unable to find a seat, so can I just press you a little further? Accepting that we are looking at capacity in the round, not at inter-city rather than shorter distances: to address capacity on our rail lines, as opposed to individual trains, are you favouring the high-cost peak-time tickets in order to manage passenger demand, or do you have other proposals about how we meet our capacity challenges, and can you be a bit clearer about what those are, other than the 51m proposals that Network Rail examined?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Obviously, that is a question we asked of senior people in Manchester, Birmingham and Nottingham this morning, and they were all very supportive of High Speed 2. I want to come back to a very specific issue on the 51m proposals. Network Rail concluded that, under the 51m proposals, 1,300 passengers from Euston would be without a seat in the busiest hour of the evening by 2026, and it found that by 2035 the number would have increased to 2,200 passengers left without a seat. Is it not the case that your proposals do not fully cover the growth in passenger demand? How would you seek to address the need for extra capacity in order to improve the amount of rail freight that we are able to carry on our network?
Kris Hopkins (Conservative, Keighley)
As somebody who frequently stands up until Doncaster before I can get a seat on the train, I think that the problem might be a little more severe, and extend beyond Watford and Northampton. We heard interesting contributions this morning from the voices of Greater Manchester and the body that brings together all the mets in the country. They were very enthusiastic and supportive of HS2; they clearly believe that the economy of the north of England would grow as a consequence of it. In fact, one of them said that they believed that the economy in the north would decline if it did not happen.
There appears to be quite a disparity—I hope that the Scottish representative will excuse me for a minute—between the south and the north of England in relation to the potential of HS2. I am wondering what the cause of that disparity is. Why are Buckinghamshire and its authorities less enthusiastic than the good people of Yorkshire and Lancashire?
Kris Hopkins (Conservative, Keighley)
One small authority—
Kris Hopkins (Conservative, Keighley)
May I clarify something? We heard this morning from witnesses who are hardly spin doctors. Sir Richard Leese, who is quite a substantial individual in local government and is entirely respected, said that every single authority in the north-west has supported HS2, and I know that every single authority in Yorkshire, with the exception of Bradfield and Wakefield, has too. We had a conversation this morning about business being sucked out of Oldham, but the witnesses were still absolutely sure that this was boosting business in the north of England and that business would decline if it did not happen. You have explained why Oldham or Birmingham might suffer,, but we did not get to the point of why Buckinghamshire and those authorities are opposed to it when there is near-unanimous support across the north of England.
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
There is a limited amount of time, and a number of people wish to ask questions, so they should be brief and, more importantly, answers should be briefer.
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
I notice that Emma Crane is the Scottish parliamentary liaison officer for HS2 Action Alliance. Obviously, you are addressing a UK parliamentary Committee and the prime responsibility for the project is with the UK Parliament and the UK Government. I was wondering what your role is in relation to the Scottish Parliament.
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
I will certainly accept that the minority of journeys that commence in Scotland end in England. Maybe part of the problem is the length of time it takes to get from Edinburgh to London. From Edinburgh Waverley to London King’s Cross takes four hours 20 minutes. I do that journey weekly. Obviously the project, if it is eventually agreed to extend high-speed rail from Manchester and Leeds northwards to Glasgow and Edinburgh, is about reducing the journey times. Would you not see an economic benefit to Scotland as a result of that?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
There is also the capacity issue.
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
I would like to return to the issue of freight capacity. Taken as a whole, do the 51m upgrades change the number of freight paths on the east and west coast main lines? If so, by how much?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
I would be interested to see that, because for me one of the key arguments is on how we have capacity on our rail system for rail freight. If we consider how international shipping movements are changing, for the UK, that is likely to mean Southampton, London and Felixstowe increasing their share of the freight movements coming in out of the country. Those then have to be transported up the west coast main line and the east coast main line to distribution centres in the midlands and the north-west. That is likely to see a significant increase in freight demand on these key trunk lines. I would be grateful to see how your analysis—your package—would address that problem.
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
May I ask you your views on the competence of HS2 Ltd?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
Can I have your views on the competence or otherwise of HS2 Ltd?
Martin Vickers (Conservative, Cleethorpes)
You were rather dismissive of your colleagues from the northern authorities, describing some of what of they had to say as a bit of a PR exercise—they have been sold HS2 and been told, “Take it or leave it; you are not getting the money for other things.” I think that is unfair to them, because I am quite certain that they have thoroughly examined other possibilities. There are advocates, as you will know, who oppose HS2 and have said, “Share the money out among the local authorities in the north—they’d go for that,” but clearly that is not the case.
The previous Government and this one have accepted the city region concept—that a thriving city has a trickle-down effect into the regional economy. You mentioned Professor Tomaney, who did indeed talk this morning about some cities being a magnet; I thought some of his evidence was contradictory, but that is by the way. Do you accept that, in order to have those thriving city regions, you have to have connectivity? The argument was mentioned that it sucks jobs in from neighbouring towns—Manchester was given as an example of that in relation to Oldham and Rochdale. However, do you accept that a resident of Rochdale would rather have a job in Manchester than an offer of one in London, and that in order to get the investment in Manchester and elsewhere, you have to have connectivity with other major cities?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Before anyone answers, Martin, was there someone specific you wanted to answer your question?
Martin Vickers (Conservative, Cleethorpes)
No.
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
We cannot have every question getting three answers, because a lot of people want to ask questions.
Martin Vickers (Conservative, Cleethorpes)
I would not accept that the scheme is not providing connectivity. I am also thinking about existing announcements as regards investment in connecting Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds—the northern hub. Do you not accept that as a package, the whole thing will contribute to the revival of the northern economy?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
We heard this morning from the northern authorities’ leaders about how destructive the £10 billion west coast main line was to the local economy. Network Rail’s assessment of the optimised alternative, which you have already talked about, concluded that the suggested enhancements are
“significant infrastructure interventions that would almost certainly require total blockades of the line”
similar to that undertaken 10 years ago by the west coast upgrade. Have you calculated, as part of the alternative, what the wider economic costs of that disruption would be to those economies?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
The things you are saying about HS2 and all the other things are fair, and obviously they are the things that we are properly interrogating. I am not picking up that there has been any alternative assessment of the economic impact of your proposals other than the one we have from Network Rail. Am I getting that right?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Briefly, please.
Karen Lumley (Conservative, Redditch)
I want to come back on my colleagues’ points. I am from a midlands seat. We would see economic benefits from HS2. One of them would be that HS2 would be 35 minutes to Birmingham airport. We have already seen huge problems in London airports with their capacity. HS2 would free up massive capacity in Birmingham airport, which would enable jobs—real jobs and not the jobs you have been talking about—to come to the midlands. My constituents will be sitting here today, listening to you and thinking, “All you care about is the south of England, and what about the midlands and the north? We want some of these jobs as well. We want to rebalance the economy and we think it would be a good thing for us.”
Karen Lumley (Conservative, Redditch)
To get to Birmingham International airport from London Euston takes a lot longer than 35 minutes, I am afraid—it is over an hour. I travel up and down quite often and the trains are full; they are full now to capacity. So, this business you have talked about between Watford and Northampton does not ring true to those of us who are using the trains on a regular basis.
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
From here on in, it will be limited to one question only, if we want to get everyone in.
Khalid Mahmood (Labour, Birmingham, Perry Barr)
I am probably getting a feeling of how Mr Stephenson felt when he came to the House for the first Bill for the line from Manchester to Liverpool. I bet that he had critics like yourselves—the witnesses here today—and he had to put up with that.
I know that anything up past Watford, we are a bit simple and we get very easily taken in by the public relations people and everybody else, and do not really realise what we are talking about in most instances. We do not know that we can spend that money much better on the local transport projects that we have, and local accountability. And we are not very good at all of that stuff so thank you very much, Mr Tett, for pointing that out to us.
There are issues, we believe, and we had leaders of our councils and local authorities this morning speaking to us. I speak to my constituents, to my local authority and to the local enterprise board, which is hugely supportive of HS2. I think that some of the issues that you talk about—of draining resources in from the boroughs surrounding Birmingham, Manchester and all that—that is exactly how Manchester was created, when the original line was built. It was by bringing people in straight off the fields. I disagree with you. People would be much better having jobs in the centre of Birmingham than having no jobs at all, or having to come down to London for those jobs.
The real issue here—and I know that time is constrained, and I did want to go a bit further than that—is this: is it because it is in my back yard that you are concerned about this, and nothing else?
Khalid Mahmood (Labour, Birmingham, Perry Barr)
Does the environmental issue not change when you get the people flying from Edinburgh, Glasgow and Manchester down to London, and all the people who drive down, off the road and on to rail? Does that not change the environmental issue?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
The contrast between this morning’s witnesses and your evidence is that, this morning, we saw people who get the pain and the gain. It is very clear that the problem for the leader of the council is that you get all the pain but none of the gain. I sympathise. I want to ask you briefly about compensation because the blight is now. I would like to know your views on a property bond and whether that might mitigate some of the pain that your constituents, and mine, are suffering right now.
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
We have three minutes.
Nicky Morgan (Conservative, Loughborough)
This morning, we heard evidence from Sir Richard Leese that he felt that HS2 would create 30,000 jobs around Manchester Piccadilly. Geoff Inskip from Centro, the West Midlands transport authority, talked about 22,000 jobs in the west midlands. Are you saying, Mr Tett, that your proposal would deliver those jobs, too?
Nicky Morgan (Conservative, Loughborough)
I was asking Mr Tett.
Nicky Morgan (Conservative, Loughborough)
So, basically, Mr Tett, you are saying that, despite the fact that you respect the two leaders, you disagree with them on their jobs calculations and that your proposal is to deliver capacity but not regeneration. Is that correct?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Mr Tett, earlier you referred to BCR and what potential BCR there might be. The Jubilee line extension to Canary Wharf was originally approved with a benefit-cost ratio of 0.95, but that project is probably widely accepted to have brought many benefits. Do you accept that benefit-cost ratios often underestimate the benefit of transport schemes?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Many thanks to our witnesses for coming along. If you feel that you have not had the opportunity to answer the questions asked, please feel free to write to the clerk.
Examination of Witnesses
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Good afternoon, gentlemen. Welcome to this afternoon’s sitting. May I ask you to introduce yourselves and your organisations?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Will you each set out what you think will be the benefits that your cities, and perhaps the wider regions that they serve, will derive from the project? A couple of previous witnesses suggested that high-speed rail will benefit the capital city rather than those connected along the route. Do you accept that view? If so, what steps need to be taken to mitigate that risk? I am sorry that that question is quite broad.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
I am directing this question at Mr Still. The proposed route has an out-of-town station for Sheffield. From a LEP or city region perspective, can you tell me whether that is the right location, or would you prefer a city-centre station? I know that that is the city council’s preferred position. If you think the city centre is the right location, what do you think the additional costs would be? If you do not, what would be the challenges of an out-of-town location?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
May I direct a question to Mr Tunstall? The Birmingham Curzon Street site is close to three existing Birmingham stations. What are the challenges of connecting them, especially through a busy city centre, and how does Birmingham plan to integrate the new city station with its plans for the metro?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
And the metro.
Nicky Morgan (Conservative, Loughborough)
Mr Tunstall, you might have been in the room for the previous evidence session. You mentioned the KPMG report and the 22,000 estimated jobs in the west midlands, but the witness representing Stop HS2 disputed those figures, saying that that was really a case of jobs being relocated from elsewhere in the west midlands to nearer Birmingham if HS2 is built. Do you have any comments on that?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Is it true that Birmingham city council and businesses in Birmingham had a proposition for the redevelopment of the Washwood Heath site to create 7,500 local jobs, but HS2 now proposes to turn it into a marshalling yard?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
But can you confirm it is the case that Birmingham city council does not want that site to be used as a marshalling yard?
Iain Stewart (Conservative, Milton Keynes South)
I would like to ask the same question I asked the previous panel—Mr Tunstall, you referred to this in your opening comments—about rail freight capacity. I think it is fairly widely accepted that doing nothing would mean there would not be enough rail freight paths on the west coast main line. Have you had the opportunity to assess the alternative 51m package and what that would mean for the number of rail freight paths on the west coast line?
Khalid Mahmood (Labour, Birmingham, Perry Barr)
You heard the submissions earlier. Have you missed a trick? They believe that you are being led up the garden path in terms of predictions and the economic case, and because these jobs will not be there and will only be moving from one part of the region to another, so there is no real need and we go back to the 51m case, which will give you better passenger capacity and you do not really need the speed.
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Mr Still, do not move; hopefully somebody will ask you a question.
Martin Vickers (Conservative, Cleethorpes)
I will direct my question to Mr Still as a starter. To some extent, it is asking you to develop the arguments that you have already put forward in response to previous questions, particularly with regard to what the previous panel of witnesses argued, that the HS2 project would actually suck jobs into those cities and deprive the wider region of those jobs. Could you develop the argument if you disagree with that? Yes, we need better links, as has been pointed out, between our core cities, but would you acknowledge that in terms of attracting investment, particularly foreign, it is vital that our regions and major cities have good connections with London?
Graeme Morrice (Labour, Livingston)
Apart from the obvious economic benefits of having high-speed rail from London to Birmingham and then to Leeds and Manchester, do you think there would be greater benefits to your respective city regions if that rail line extended even further north into Scotland and the central belt connecting to Edinburgh and/or Glasgow?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
You said that the local enterprise partnerships have the business community very much at their hearts. In fact, they have a business person in the chair. I want to ask about business and compensation. In the Bill under, I think, clause 1, it states that the money can be used to acquire property. In your view, what should the Government look at in terms of compensation for affected businesses? At the moment, they are not covered by existing schemes. That is a question for both of you.
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
Would a property bond be of interest to business? As you say, with blight it is not certain whether your property will be affected, but you can hold a piece of paper that basically covers the difference between the unblighted price and the blighted one, which could be transferable to a subsequent business owner. Would that be attractive to business?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
May I return to the question of Washwood Heath? I was interested in your response, in which I think you said that HS2 Ltd had been able to convince you that there was no alternative site for the marshalling yard. In your dealings with HS2 so far, have you been fully consulted on the initial route proposal and has the company been able to provide you with sufficient information?
Karen Lumley (Conservative, Redditch)
May I ask you both how important it is for HS1 and HS2 to be joined together?
Karen Lumley (Conservative, Redditch)
High Speed 2 will cut 35 minutes from London to Birmingham airport. Have you done any work on how much capacity and how many extra passengers Birmingham could cope with?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
What sort of organisation have you found HS2 Ltd to be when you have engaged with it, or when it has engaged with you and the communities in your areas?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Mr Tunstall, you said that the 51m proposals could not be done without substantial works in various places. My understanding is that works are proposed by 51m only for a Stafford bypass and works at Ledburn junction near Milton Keynes. It is certainly the case that Network Rail proposed firmly to go ahead with Stafford, and I have been advised this morning that it is also going ahead with Ledburn junction, so there would not be any major work involved in the 51m proposals.
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
But you agree that they are not proposing any major works other than Stafford bypass and Ledburn junction.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
A couple of questions, both for Mr Still. What are the implications for existing main line services to Sheffield arising from the development of HS2? Do you have any concerns about that?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
You said in your evidence that you would like construction on the Sheffield station to begin at the same time as construction of phase one of the route. Have you put that proposal to HS2 Ltd or to Ministers? If so, what response have you received?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
There do not appear to be any more questions. Thank you for coming along. If you think that there is any more information you can provide the Committee, please send it to the Clerk.
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Thanks very much to our witnesses for coming along. We are due to finish this session by 4.30 pm, so we would appreciate brevity if that is possible without interrupting the quality of the questions and answers. May I begin by asking you to introduce yourselves?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Going first to Network Rail, will you briefly sketch the history of why Network Rail came to the conclusion that a new rail line was needed?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Earlier today, we heard from 51m, Stop HS2 and HS2 Action Alliance. They suggested a couple of things: one is that there are alternative ways of generating the same capacity—if, indeed, they accepted the need for such capacity—and the other is that Network Rail has not conducted a real analysis of their alternative options. Is there any merit in their criticisms, and how do you respond to them?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Looking at the west coast route utilisation strategy, you conclude that the west coast main line will effectively be full by around 2024, if demand grows as predicted, and that is two years before phase 1 is due to open. What steps are you taking to address capacity constraints in the lead-up to that period?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Mr Steer, what do you believe the regional benefits of high-speed rail would be? How would you respond to the comments by Professor John Tomaney this morning—if you heard them? Can you say whether you think that the lines—the stops and cities covered—are the right ones, particularly in relation to out-of-town locations?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
We heard the witnesses this morning speak about the plans for Euston station. Since High Speed 1 does not go out of Euston, we asked about the practicalities of bringing High Speed 2 into Euston when High Speed 1 runs out of St Pancras. It would seem that the passengers just have to walk between the two, which is not desirable if you have luggage, children and it is raining. I am not a railway engineer—why were the plans not to put High Speed 2 into the place where High Speed 1 emanates?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
May I ask a supplementary question, Chair?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Answers will have to be brief.
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
This morning, a witness made the point that structurally the North London line might not be able to provide such a link—once again, I am not a railway engineer—and for High Speed 1 that was eschewed in favour of a tunnel. As railway experts, what is your view on that?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
I have two questions related to the link. First, if HS2 and all its associated works were the product of some grand strategy, which is what we have just been told, why was there no mention at all of an HS2-HS1 link when HS2 was launched?
Secondly, is it not the case that HS1 from Barking to St Pancras is in a twin-bore tunnel virtually under the North London line, and that the engineers decided to do that because the North London line’s embankments, cuttings and bridges were so poor that tunnelling was more predictable and less likely to go wrong? What has changed about the North London line now that makes it preferable to a tunnel?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Order.
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Apologies to our last set of witnesses, who unfortunately have had to leave, but if they are required to give us any more information they can write to the Clerk. Welcome to our three new witnesses this afternoon. Thanks for coming along. May I begin by asking you to introduce yourselves and the organisations that you represent?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
May I ask a general question of all those present? What is your assessment of the Government’s mitigation measures up to this point?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Can I ask some general questions around compensation? The Country Land and Business Association said in written evidence that there were still grievances over the compensation process for HS1, and I wondered whether you could set out the nature of those and to what extent you think HS2 Ltd has taken them on board. May I perhaps also pick up your thoughts about the potential for a property bond scheme, what that might mean, and what discussions you are having around that?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Are you satisfied with the response you are getting to your proposals and suggestions from Ministers and HS2 Ltd?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Ralph, could you briefly outline your areas of most concern on both phase 1 and phase 2? As part of that response, what are the most important changes you would like to see in the final environmental statement for phase 1?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Certainly.
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
I would like to ask some questions on blight and compensation. Surely one of the difficulties for farmers will be that their land will have an agricultural value, but, as in my constituency where farmland will be used to build the interchange station, the reality is that that land is worth far more than the price of growing wheat or whatever on it. How do you think that the Bill could help secure fairness in the system? Is there an appeal mechanism for a fair assessment of the land value for compensation?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
May I ask the CPRE a question? The reform of planning brought in the concept of biodiversity offsetting, so a development of this scale would require a very significant biodiversity offset. Is the CPRE aware of the work undertaken by Birmingham university looking at significant rectification, certainly along the length of the line approaching and passing Birmingham? Might that in part answer your point about how the damage that inevitably will be done along the line of the route will be made good?
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
Do you share my view that the scale and complexity of the HS2 project is matched by the scale and complexity of the compensation and mitigation issue, and it would be a good idea if the Government and HS2 got together with the various stakeholders to try to thrash out a special, purpose-built compensation and mitigation law, because the current law is not adequate? I will give two examples from my constituency. The tunnel goes underneath the houses of some people who live in Primrose Hill. They have been assured by the engineers that it will cause no problems, but they will not be able to demonstrate that it has caused no problems until two or three years after the line starts operating. In the meantime, a potential purchaser will not believe anything they are told.
In Drummond street, there are a lot of small cafés and shops that are utterly dependent on the passing trade to and from Euston station. They are going to have a wall built across their street for 10 years of a scale that matches the Berlin wall. I do not think HS2 will have soldiers on the other side with sub-machine-guns. However, there will be no chance of passing trade, and those small business will get no compensation at all.
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
I want to ask Ralph about Greengauge 21’s report on the environmental impacts of HS2, which suggests that there needs to be a wider policy framework. Do you agree with its conclusions, and is there anything you would want to add about the carbon footprint issues?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
May I ask you about HS2 Ltd’s exceptional hardship scheme and how it has operated up to now, and also about the community forums? Have the forums been well run, and if they have not been particularly well run is it a geographical issue, with them being good in some areas and not so good in others?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
I am surprised that you say that even a third get through, because I would have thought that “exceptional” meant a lot less than a third.
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
The theory is that it deals with exceptional hardship, but the fact is that it causes it.
Kris Hopkins (Conservative, Keighley)
There may be some notes on this that I cannot find. Obviously there will be environmental damage while we dig a large line through the country, but once it is stabilised, you have a protected area. Has there been any work looking at that corridor? Farmers will not work on it, and it is protected as such. The M6 has a huge adder population that has suddenly appeared because of the protected environment, and there is an opportunity to develop and grow such sites of special scientific interest because we are engineering this unusual environment.
Kris Hopkins (Conservative, Keighley)
My question was not an anti-farming comment. Managed land can obviously create some amazing environmental positives, but it is quite unusual to have such a long piece of wild, fenced-in, protected land. Having lived on a farm with a rabbit population, I do understand what you mean.
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Ralph, are you satisfied with HS2 Ltd’s proposed mitigation measures for ancient woodlands? Is there more they could be doing?
Caroline Spelman (Conservative, Meriden)
As a supplementary to that, here is an interesting thought. The scale of the biodiversity offsetting is going to be enormous because of the scale of the project. Given that the ancient woodlands are now suffering multiple attacks, from Chalara in the case of the ash to sudden oak death syndrome—oak and ash are certainly significantly affected—might there be an opportunity here from the perspective of the CPRE to do some subsequent planting in some of our woodlands, so that they are not as badly decimated by disease, which we can predict will take perhaps a third of the species population?
Nicholas Dakin (Labour, Scunthorpe)
You have made some interesting observations about a possible property bond scheme. Have you any estimates of the possible cost of such a scheme?
Lilian Greenwood (Labour, Nottingham South)
Mr Cotterell and Mr Shirley, you said in your written evidence that the Bill should be amended to provide for a duty to pay fair compensation. Is there anything you would like to add in relation to what you mean by “fair” in that context?
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
We have only one minute left. Are there any burning questions? Very quickly.
Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)
May I ask you to beware of what might happen? Crossrail—a project I have always supported—ended up paying people compensation for the loss of their business virtually a year after they had lost their business. So, you need to be looking carefully at that aspect.
Jim Sheridan (Labour, Paisley and Renfrewshire North)
Okay gentlemen, thanks very much for coming along. Again, if there is any information that you think would be helpful for the Committee, please send it to the Clerk.