Children and Families Bill

Public Bill Committee, 7 March 2013.

Examination of Witnesses

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Before we start questions, I remind members of the public and others to switch electronic devices to silent mode.

I thank our witnesses for attending. We are to take oral evidence from Ofsted, the Daycare Trust and the Family and Parenting Institute, and the National Childminding Association. I remind witnesses and members of the Committee that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and that we must stick strictly to the timetable that we set. I do not anticipate being interrupted by votes or anything this morning, so we will stick to the agreed timetable.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Good morning. I will start with Sue Gregory of Ofsted. Are you aware of where the inspiration for childminder agencies comes from? Was it something that Ofsted suggested to Ministers? Has the need to reduce Ofsted’s budget played any role in your support for such agencies?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

You will be aware that the Netherlands tried childminder agencies and creating a very similar situation. That resulted in the costs to Government rocketing and the quality falling drastically, and the Netherlands is backing away from it. How can we prevent that from happening in this country?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

You mentioned the work with children’s centres and Sure Start, but what is your vision of these agencies? Are they private providers? Are they places like children’s centres—a centre where they could coalesce—or do you see big chains of childminder agencies setting up? Also, you talk about inspection. Would you inspect the agency or the individual childminders, or would you trust the agency to inspect the childminder? Who pays? Does the childminder pay the agency for the inspection? If there are extra costs, this is not going to get cheaper for parents.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

And the cost to parents?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Moving to Liz, to get the National Childminding Association’s perspective. On Tuesday, the Minister implied that overburdensome regulations and a lack of support had driven half the childminders out of the profession. Is that something you recognise?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

So a lot of the childminders that in the statistics looked like they left the profession were not actually doing any work or looking after children?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

You have run the “individual inspection matters” campaign against the very measures that are in this Bill. Why does individual inspection matter?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Your fellow panel member from Ofsted implied—I do not know if this is what was meant—that the quality of childminders is lower than it should be and is failing children. Do you think that is true? Would childminder agencies improve that quality?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

I am sure that other Members have lots more questions, but I have a quick question for Peter Grigg, from Daycare Trust and the Family and Parenting Institute—you have merged now, so that is a huge long title; perhaps you will shorten it. Your report on child care costs, which came out yesterday, showed that costs continue to rise faster than inflation, while average earnings are falling. Do you think that anything in the Bill will reverse or help with that squeeze?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

I want to continue that line of questioning. I absolutely agree that the detail is not there in the Bill, and I would like to elaborate on that. The model that you describe, Sue, of co-operative childminders coming together under the local authority, in a Sure Start centre or something similar, is one that—thinking of my constituency, which, if it is not the most deprived in the country, is certainly in the top three—I could support and would welcome. In the Bill, that is left totally open. As you say, we could see market-driven childminder agencies, which, to me, conjures up an image more like the social care model, where we have very poor quality at very high cost. It would absolutely horrify me to have that model in the child care arena. How does the panel think we could make the Bill more specific to the co-operative model, and why is it not there in the first place?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

How does this meet that challenge?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

But that is not what the Bill specifies, is it?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

So your support for this Bill would be subject to that being the model, as opposed to a different sort of model that is perhaps more akin to the one we see in social care, or where there are agencies that supply staff and cream off some of the profit?

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

We are discussing this morning the relative efficiency of this Bill. There are three other Members who wish to speak. May I move on to Ms Leadsom, please?

Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

I would like to ask this question of each of you on the panel, but particularly Mr Grigg. Is there evidence that for the earliest years, so for the under-twos, the home-based childminder style of child care is better to meet their attachment and developmental needs, reflecting what Ms Gregory has said about the fact that so many children are not school-ready? With that in mind, do you think that the existence of childminder agencies will lead to an increase in the number of childminders able to meet those attachment needs for the earliest years?

Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

Ms Gregory, what is your view on the evidence of the importance of childminding in home-based settings over nursery settings in the earliest years? Will the Bill lead to an increase in that group?

Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

But it would not be surveys.

Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

No, I am talking about attachment, rather than educational outcomes—the actual attachment outcomes for under-twos.

Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

I am not explaining well. My question is about meeting the child’s attachment needs and the advantage of a home-based environment for meeting such needs, as opposed to the quality or learning outcomes for babies.

Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)

One thing that I was wondering whether I could direct at the Daycare Trust is this business about agencies. Is it fair to say that the Daycare Trust thinks that agencies could help to relieve childminders of the burdens of setting up a business? Why is that important?

Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)

May I ask Ms Bayram on the perspective of the National Childminders Association? My understanding is that childminder agencies will be voluntary and that nothing will change for individual childminders, so what exactly do high-quality individual childminders have to fear?

Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)

Let us look at inspections. Why exactly do you think that an individual inspection by Ofsted every three to four years, which lasts two to three hours, offers the best system for parents and childminders?

Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)

Finally, how are we going to get more childminders into the market and encourage existing childminders to remain? How can we really encourage that?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

I am hearing evidence about a desire, on the one hand, to build on existing good practice when it comes to networks and sharing—whether that is through Sure Start or elsewhere—and a concern, on the other hand, that if agencies are going to come in, the evidence has not been properly examined and there has been a lack of trialling. Can each of you comment on exactly where you are and what your recommendation would be?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

What about trialling, if it happens?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Sue Gregory, presumably you take a slightly different view?

Craig Whittaker (Conservative, Calder Valley)

Liz, may I take you back to something you said about agencies pushing up the cost of child care? I noticed on your website that, as an organisation, you charge about £95 a year for membership, which includes insurance as well. Do you have any evidence to suggest that this pushes up the cost of child care?

Craig Whittaker (Conservative, Calder Valley)

I am talking about your costs in particular as an organisation.

Craig Whittaker (Conservative, Calder Valley)

I understand that, but the question was specifically about your costs as an organisation and how that puts up the costs of child care.

Craig Whittaker (Conservative, Calder Valley)

So why, then, would you presume that agencies will push up the costs of child care too?

Craig Whittaker (Conservative, Calder Valley)

Finally from me, do you have any evidence of how much that cost will be?

Craig Whittaker (Conservative, Calder Valley)

You also as an agency deliver some of those benefits.

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

We have five minutes before I bring in the Minister. Ms Powell, you want to come back on something. Very quickly, please.

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

Very quickly. It is not specifically in the Bill, but it is in the context of the Bill; we may try to bring it into the Bill. Can I ask each of the panel whether they support the loosening of ratios, as outlined by the Government recently?

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Sorry, that is not proper to the Bill, as you said in your question. You can say to us what you wish to say in evidence, but I am going to bring the Minister back with her question.

Jo Swinson (Liberal Democrat, East Dunbartonshire)

Thank you, Mr Havard. I wanted particularly to ask Mr Grigg about his organisation’s evidence, which shows that there are particular problems in finding wraparound care around the school day. I understand that the Daycare Trust is aware that for people who are working out of hours or shift work it can prove difficult to find nursery provision to deal with that flexibility. What do you think the role of childminders is in meeting that need? Is there, in your view, a need for more childminders to meet those needs with more flexible working? How would it be best to increase the number of new childminders coming into the market and to help the existing ones remain?

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Two minutes.

Jo Swinson (Liberal Democrat, East Dunbartonshire)

What do you think would increase the number of childminders?

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

May I go back to Ms Powell’s question about what ought to be in the Bill that is not in the Bill? You have a minute and a half.

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

I am sorry; we have now exhausted the time that we agreed was available, so I have to terminate the session and we will move to the next set of witnesses. Thank you very much.

Examination of witnesses

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Welcome. As you saw with the last group, we have a finite period of time. Thank you for coming and for your contributions.

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Thanks to both of you for coming to give evidence to us today.

Roger, may I ask whether you have done any consultation with children about the provisions in the Bill, and whether they have any particularly strong views on any of its aspects, including the part about the Office of the Children’s Commissioner?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

That is really helpful. Thank you very much. It is pretty good to get through the whole Bill and a lot of children’s views in a few minutes.

Kathy, I have a question for you specifically on the Office of the Children’s Commissioner. I expect Children England, like us, welcomes the strengthening of the Children’s Commissioner’s remit, but Maggie Atkinson, in evidence to the Select Committee on Education, said that although measures proposed in the Children and Families Bill will make the commissioner more independent from Government, there are controls in place that continue to constrain the commissioner’s independence.

Do you think there is anything additional we could do to ensure that the Children’s Commissioner is a truly independent voice for children?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

To come back to Roger Morgan and what you were saying about contact: you gave an either/or, an “on the one hand and on the other” response to what you would like to see the secondary legislation say. Can you be more specific about how you deal with the issue of judgment of what is in the child’s interest?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Who judges that?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

You mentioned section 8 orders in what you put in writing to us. Will you explain what you meant by that?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

So it is about putting the child in care on the same footing with a relationship with their parent, which in this case is the corporate parent.

Jessica Lee (Conservative, Erewash)

Dr Morgan, I want to go back a step with your role. I know that you help many children each year, and give advice and so on, but can you give us a picture of how many children come within your remit each year? Can you give a couple of examples of the work that you do?

Jessica Lee (Conservative, Erewash)

You have mentioned the role of the independent reviewing officer. In the past year that role has become more central to care plans, as we know. Do you see that role as continuing to grow in its importance? It is pivotal, really, in care plans being continued after the court has finished being involved with a child.

Jessica Lee (Conservative, Erewash)

How do you see children’s needs being best met within the new remit for the commissioner’s role?

Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)

I should like to ask Dr Morgan some questions. Clause 11 makes provision in relation to parental involvement. Leaving aside issues of risk—of harm—would you think the starting point is that children should have the right to know and have a relationship with both their parents?

Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)

Is it your experience in these cases that the voice of the child is actually listened to, when it comes to children seeing both their parents? Or at the moment are they often just ignored?

Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)

Finally, on corporate parenting for children who are in care—or looked-after children—I represent the constituency of Dover in east Kent. London local authorities just dump children down the end of Kent and do not properly supervise them. Do you think that there is an issue there? Should children be placed closer to their homes or home area, so they can be properly supervised, and should corporate parenting change, so that the corporate parent should be the authority where that child is placed and located, to ensure proper supervision?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

I have a couple of questions, mainly for Roger, related to the previous question. Do you think that the new role of the Children’s Commissioner should have explicit or non-explicit powers to go into children’s homes to speak to all the children where there have been allegations of physical or sexual abuse in that home? Would that be a valuable addition to the Bill?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

Excellent. In the context of the announcements yesterday from the Crown Prosecution Service about listening more to child victims, especially in predatory sexual abuse circumstances, do you think there is a role for the Children’s Commissioner in facilitating that listening, especially where we have children living away from home in care homes and there are predatory adults around?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

What might that role be?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

Are there ways that we could seek to further empower children in the process by looking at mutualising aspects of the adoption service so that children in care, or their representatives, have direct control over elements of the service?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

What I had in mind was whether a mutualised model that had children actively involved in decision making would ensure that greater attention was paid to the views of every single child because they would be making that part of the process.

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

Another quick point on post-adoption support. Presumably you support the provisions, but do you have a view on how deliverable they will be, given the uncertainty around the future funding of local authority budgets?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

So, a move to prevention. I have a final little point to make. Do you have any views on the proposed power to ban named local authorities from recruiting and approving their own adopters?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

I read it to mean that the Secretary of State could direct a particular local authority no longer to run its adoption service, which would take the main provider out of the market in particular areas where there may not be capacity in the third sector. I wondered whether you had heard or shared a similar view.

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

Dr Morgan, may I take you into one aspect of the Bill that you have not mentioned? It may be that you did not take views from children about it. It is the clause to try to improve the educational attainment of children in care through the statutory duty on local authorities to have a specific officer, normally named a virtual school head, to promote their educational attainment. From the views you have taken from children in the care system, what value have they placed on their education? Have they commented on the current provision and whether they would support the proposal in the Bill to put the virtual school head on a statutory footing?

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you very much. It is my duty to bring this sitting to a conclusion. Thank you for your help and co-operation. The Committee will take further evidence at two o’clock.

Examination of Witnesses

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Good afternoon. I ask everyone in the room to put their electronic devices on to silent mode, so that we have no disturbances.

I welcome the first group of witnesses. This afternoon’s sitting may be somewhat disrupted, as we are expecting votes. If we have to vote, we will suspend the sitting and reconvene. I encourage my colleagues to ask nice, snappy questions, and you may want to think about how you answer so that we make the best use of the time, but I am sure that we will struggle through together.

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Thanks to both of you for coming to give evidence today. I will start with a question about the fathers’ leave envisaged in the Bill. The Government initially proposed a fathers’ quota to encourage more fathers to take leave, but later said that they would not extend paternity leave and pay until the economy had improved, which it shows no sign of doing at the moment. Do you have any international evidence about the impact of a fathers’ quota on the take-up of leave? Does it help? Does it matter?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

That is interesting, thank you. Do you think that the Bill is clear enough on the Government’s plans for legal protections currently afforded to women on maternity leave?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Yes.

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

That is helpful, thank you. I have one last question about the Bill provisions about time off for antenatal appointments. They seem a little complicated, and I wondered whether you could say something about the practical implications of the current drafting.

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

For your information, it would appear that the business of the House has moved on, as has the magical mystery tour of when we vote in the House of Commons. It does not look as though we will have a Division until 4 o’clock, so this sitting should run normally, hopefully. I call Lucy Powell.

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

Thank you, Mr Havard. Following on from Lisa’s questions, at the heart of the Bill is the issue of getting the balance right between ensuring that the mother is not put under any undue pressure not to take her full maternity rights and trying to engage the father in taking some time off. Do you think that the Bill strikes that balance in terms of the paternity-maternity relationship?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

Absolutely. I am currently trying to persuade my husband to take some of his paternity leave, but I do not think that I am going to succeed. I absolutely feel that the feminist movement needs male pioneers as well. Do you think that giving the right to the birth mother as the primary carer will really enable that? It is almost her leave to share under the Bill. Do you think that that is the right balance to strike?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

A final question from me, Chair, on the flexible working part of the Bill. Are you happy with that, as drafted, or do you think that could be strengthened in any way? If so, how?

Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)

I completely agree that the battle for feminism needs male pioneers, as a husband in a joint working family bringing up children. For between 56% and 66% of joint working couples with children, both earners are at work, depending on the age of the child in, so in the overwhelming majority of couples with children, both parents are in the workplace. Do you not think that, given that that has been the case for quite a while, it is a real scandal that it has taken so long to bring a lot of these provisions such as flexible leave into the parliamentary legislative process?

Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)

It has also been said that both parents—mums and dads—are more engaged in bringing up children than ever before. What is your understanding of the evidence on that?

Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)

The stress that you speak of sometimes causes families to break down: increasing divorce and separation is a fact of life in recent times. Given the social change that has taken place, do you not think that it is important for children to continue to know and have relationships with both their parents, absent the risk of harm issue?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

As a father who would like to spend more time with his children, I can certainly relate to the discussion. You have quite rightly welcomed the move to more flexible working. One concern that has been put by some who lobbied us is how, when considering a request for flexible leave, the wording “in a reasonable manner” may be interpreted by some employers. Does that concern you?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Thanks very much. Chair, it would be very helpful if we could have a copy of that code.

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

I think Ministers are scribbling as you speak.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

I have one final question. Going back to the point about shared parental leave, is there anything about adoptive parents that needs teasing out? I am thinking in particular about the issue of children settling in and building relaxed, stable relationships. Is that something to which either of you has given any thought?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

That is helpful. Thank you.

Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

Ceri, I want to press you more on your comment about what you called the motherhood penalty. Specifically, I wondered whether both of you had comments regarding private sector small businesses. Do you have evidence that they welcome or are fearful of the rights to shared parental leave? Obviously, they are often cited as being very badly treated by the prospect of shared parental leave. On the other side of the coin, does it finally solve a problem that we know is a reality for some women—because they are recently married and in their 20s, they are not going to get a job, because the employer thinks they might be off to have a baby?

Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

Thank you.

Jo Swinson (Liberal Democrat, East Dunbartonshire)

Thank you for the campaigning that you have done on this over the past 30 years. Ceri said that at the heart of this was choice, and maximum flexibility for families to work out what works for them. What are your predictions for patterns, in terms of how families will tend to use this shared parental leave?

Jo Swinson (Liberal Democrat, East Dunbartonshire)

Some employers’ groups have suggested that it would be a problem if people requested a week-on, week-off pattern, and split leave like that. What is your assessment of the likelihood of those types of patterns being commonplace?

Jo Swinson (Liberal Democrat, East Dunbartonshire)

Do you think that people will be requesting that type of pattern?

Jo Swinson (Liberal Democrat, East Dunbartonshire)

On take-up, Ceri, you talked about the 8% figure. The change in legislation, as Sarah was saying, is moving after what society is already changing. The cultural impact is not purely an issue of legislation. What do you think needs to be done, working in tandem with couples who are expecting a baby and employers, to change the culture, so that take-up can grow as this policy is rolled out?

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Order. I am afraid I have to stop you there. Thank you very much for your information and help. I am sure the points about supplementary information that can be provided have been noted. I call the next set of witnesses.

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Good afternoon. I notice that you have been sitting at the back of the room, so you have seen how our proceedings work, you know what to expect, and you know where the clocks are. Thank you for coming and participating.

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Thank you both very much for coming and giving evidence to us. We have just had a session in which we talked quite a bit about the situation of fathers. There is broad consensus across the Committee, and from the witnesses, that fathers would like to spend more time with their children. Does the Bill deliver the sort of cultural change that we were promised, and if not, what needs to be added to the Bill to make that happen?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Could you expand on the proportion of mothers and fathers who will not fulfil the criteria? Who are those people, and what will the implications be of them being excluded?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Does your organisation have concerns about antenatal appointments? I asked about them in the previous session; I do not know if you heard. One feature of antenatal appointments—this is linked to some of the groups that you mentioned—is that the right to time off for antenatal appointments is a right to unpaid time off. Will that prevent lower-paid families from taking up the provision?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Michael, can I ask you something on that point in particular?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Yes. What is the view of the federation on that?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

That is really helpful, thank you. With the Chair’s permission, I will ask one more question. Kathy, in the submission that we received from the Fatherhood Institute, the point was made that the UK is possibly in breach of equalities legislation in Europe. The briefing did not go into detail, so can you say more about that, in relation to the amount of maternity and paternity leave that we currently have?

Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)

May I ask Ms Jones about the evidence about the father’s role, and the effect of keen participation by a father on children’s life chances, as against the outcomes for children who do not have the input of both parents?

Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)

Of course, sometimes separation and family breakdown happens. Where it does, what is your approach to clause 11, which makes provision for parental involvement? Do you welcome the provision that after separation the child should have access to both parents?

Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)

Mr Mealing, on the provisions on flexible leave, and what you would probably see as business costs in relation to maternity and paternity provision, how do you weigh the improvement you might get in staff retention against the business cost of the kind of provisions that we are discussing?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

Kathy, I will come to you first. Have you done any of your own research on the likely take-up of the parental leave offer for fathers under the terms outlined in the Bill? I think the Government estimate that it is between 2% and 8% of eligible fathers. Would you concur with that figure?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

Closer to 2%?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

How big a factor is pay in this context?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

Have you got any suggestions about how that might be overcome? Obviously, we are not in a scenario where there is lots of money—in fact, far from it. How might we be able to look at some creative ways to support fathers in doing that?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

Michael, what is your view? We heard in a previous session a suggestion from business—possibly even more from small business—about the opportunity for returning parents to share their statutory maternity pay with some part-time work, so there is a phased integration back into work. What is the view of your members?

Andy Sawford (Labour, Corby)

I want to ask a little more about the people you feel will be helped by the measures in the Bill, and those who will not. Could you describe that to us, in terms of the types of people? I have been looking at your briefing. Could you suggest any specific amendments that could help to extend this measure to improve the lives of more parents? That question is to Kathy, in particular.

Andy Sawford (Labour, Corby)

Have you got any figures or research on how many more?

Andy Sawford (Labour, Corby)

I would be interested to know how many more fathers would be included because of that.

Andy Sawford (Labour, Corby)

Kathy, what is your view on the way clause 88 leaves it to the birth mother or the primary adopter to decide whether to share the parental leave? Should fathers have more of a say and more ability to influence whether they are able to take some of the shared parental leave?

Andy Sawford (Labour, Corby)

Finally, you described something that I as a parent understand—as will all other parents here—is a private negotiation between parents about parental responsibilities, paternity leave and other arrangements. That takes place in other countries. Is it specified in law in other countries? Why would that be necessary? What could specifying in law that a father has a greater say achieve, or is it unnecessary?

Andy Sawford (Labour, Corby)

On the daddy quota, you describe the provisions in this Bill as a compromise. You clearly contrast what you saw as a very welcome document, the “Modern Workplaces” consultation document, with provisions in this Bill. If we were to try to improve this Bill during the coming weeks, what specifically would you think from the recommendations in the “Modern Workplaces” consultation would make the most difference?

Andy Sawford (Labour, Corby)

Specifically the daddy quota?

Andy Sawford (Labour, Corby)

Thank you.

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Just for the purposes of the record, I have agreed to the distribution to the Committee of the extended right to request flexible working code of practice. That is information on a subject that was discussed a little earlier, so that people have some of the information that they were requesting earlier, and we will take all the necessary detail later.

Jo Swinson (Liberal Democrat, East Dunbartonshire)

We had a discussion with the earlier witnesses about the culture and it would be helpful for us to understand, from the perspective of both of you, first, what are some of the barriers that dads might face in the workplace in taking additional paternity leave under the existing system, and what the barriers might be under the new system and how they might be overcome? Secondly, it would be helpful to hear an employer’s perspective about the cultural constraints that workplaces might have within them, and how they can be overcome.

Jo Swinson (Liberal Democrat, East Dunbartonshire)

Kathy?

Jo Swinson (Liberal Democrat, East Dunbartonshire)

If, as you say, at the moment they are not even able, when leaving an organisation, to say that this is one of the reasons why, that points to quite a cultural barrier in terms of dads in the workplace being able to talk about the flexibility they might need. Presumably, that is partly as a result of the reaction that they expect to receive, either from their employers or from co-workers. Other than through legislation, how can that be tackled?

Jo Swinson (Liberal Democrat, East Dunbartonshire)

Michael, what effect will these changes have on the retention of talent in the workplace for your members?

Jo Swinson (Liberal Democrat, East Dunbartonshire)

Following on from that, as a final question that I was keen to put to you, what is most important for business? As you will know, we have a consultation at the moment on the administration of shared parental leave. I am sure that the FSB will submit a formal response to that. What do you think are the most important things that are needed to get that right, to make these policy changes work for business so that they have the support of the business community, rather than them ending up being perceived as an extra burden?

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you very much. With your efficiency and a bit of discipline on our side, we have managed to win ourselves a bit of time. Thank you very much for your contribution. I believe our next witnesses are present. We will move onto them and finish completely at 4 o’clock, because we know we have a vote. That way we will hopefully have a consistent discussion without interruption. Thank you very much for your help. Could we have the next set of witnesses, please?

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

We are having a bit of discussion because Andrew Webb is not with us currently. I was under the impression that all three witnesses were here, so I am trying to have an open discussion now about whether we should proceed and he can join us later. Are you content with that?

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Are people happy to proceed on that basis? Yes? Okay. You have confused us now by talking about youth justice; you mean family justice?

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

It is obviously Thursday afternoon. If everyone is content then we will proceed on that basis. I believe this is being led by Sharon Hodgson.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Good afternoon. I have a couple of areas of questioning, with some questions on child care and then some on the reforms to SEN. On child care, switching from local authority network support and childminders to agencies seems like another way in which responsibility for the quality of education in that area has been stripped away from local authorities. Do you agree with this? Do you think this is a positive step, particularly when it comes to the early years? This question is probably more for the directors of children’s services.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Can I ask about the three-yearly sufficiency report? Do you feel that it is a particularly onerous exercise? Do you support doing it? The LGA says that scrapping it will not save any money and that London councils actually want to keep it. What do you think is the majority view about the sufficiency report? [ Interruption. ]

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you for being here, Mr Webb. We started without you, but it is not your fault; it is down to the ways and vagaries of how Parliament works. We have only just begun and were deferring questions about family justice in particular until you arrived. In any event, we have had one question only. Perhaps Sharon would like to ask the question again.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

I do not know whether you heard it.

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Okay. We are planning to proceed now and finish at 4 o’clock.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Who would like to answer? Do you know the answer?

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

If you are saying that you are concerned about the accuracy of it and you want to be accurate, you can send something in writing.

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

That would be very helpful.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

I will move on to special educational needs, which might be safer territory for the panel.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Is there anything that local authorities are currently concerned about with regard to part 3 on SEN, particularly in terms of new or increased statutory responsibilities? How do you think such concerns could be addressed in amendments?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

We have had evidence from the Association of Colleges with regard to post-16 funding in FE, which I understand will now be the responsibility of local authorities. There are major concerns about the size of that pool of money. Will the funding be enough, bearing in mind the raising of the participation age to 18 and the fact that, realistically, the majority of children in that group of young people who are not currently in education will probably have more special educational needs than the ones who chose to go into education before the participation age was raised? How are you addressing that? Are you looking at it? Is it a major concern? Are you working with the AOC on it ?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

I would like to ask you about some other aspects of the Bill. First, on the greater role that the Bill could give to social workers and independent reviewing officers, if we take the provisions—the slimming down of expert evidence in the family court system, for example, which will place greater weight on social work evidence, and the rebalancing of the court’s focus on the permanent aspects of the care plan rather than potentially considering the entire plan—together with the points about social work caseloads, independent reviewing officer pressure and the measures in the Bill to speed up the process, I am concerned about two things. First, the quality of decision making could be compromised; secondly, the voice of the child could be lost. Do you share those concerns? If so, what do you think we ought to do during the passage of the Bill to ensure that decisions made about children remain in their best interests?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Are children’s services ready?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

I suppose our concern is that politicians are about to spend the next few months deliberating over legislation that will have a very immediate impact on the lives of individual children that we will never meet. We must make sure that the variability around the country that you describe is eradicated. If we pass legislation that relies on it being eradicated and it is not, the impact on some children would be very dramatic indeed. But I suppose that we could continue to discuss this throughout the passage of the Bill.

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Does Barnardo’s have a view about the point at which the views of the child ought to have been sought before a decision is made, either about permanence or placing them into a fostering for adoption arrangement?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

But that would be before the decision is taken?

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

As we know, the world is changing around us all the time, particularly in Parliament. It now looks as though what was going to take place at 4 o’clock may come earlier. If it does, I will have to suspend the sitting for 15 minutes. If there is more than one vote, and there is likely to be more than one vote, we will have to suspend for another 10 minutes. That is where I am at the moment so revise your plans. However, we have a very small amount of time. I have seven people who wish to ask questions and the Minister is No. 8. We will try to make the best progress that we can among all of that.

Charlie Elphicke (Conservative, Dover)

I will just ask one question. Dr Roger Morgan, a child rights director in England, said earlier that his evidence showed that the voice of the child too often is not heard by people involved in the system. Is it not a real concern that, with 67,000 or so looked-after children, only 3,450 were adopted last year? Is not there a case for reform, considering that the number of adopters being recruited still remains pitifully small and the number of looked-after children seems ever to increase?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

What will the implications be if EHC plans do not cover apprenticeships and custodial sentences?

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Apologies for the vagaries of the system here. I am informed that there will not be an additional vote at present. There may be votes later in the day, but we will have finished by then. If you agree with my proposition, we will start now and finish at our original end time of quarter past 4, so we have between now and 4.15 pm to complete our scheduled business. We were in the middle of you trying to answer a question from Mr Reed. I cannot remember what the question was; I hope you can.

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

I was asking what the implications were if EHC plans did not cover apprenticeships and custodial sentences.

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

So that is an area where you are pushing Government to amend the proposals. On post-adoption support, what measures are required to ensure that that support is deliverable, given the extreme long-term pressure on local authority budgets?

Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)

Andrew, earlier you spoke about the nature of disability and disabilities not being included within the education, health and care plans. We know that 75% of children with disabilities are also registered as having a special educational need. What specific disabilities were you thinking are not included?

Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)

But if they have an educational need, it is already covered in the plan.

Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)

Would you extend it to pupils with asthma or diabetes, or is that not so much of an issue for you?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Coming back to the point about post-adoption support and adding it into the special educational needs services and the local offer, you mentioned, Debbie, the long-term implications of whether those services will be there. One of the submissions that we had suggested that, if services were not available, parents or carers would be able to appeal in some way. How do you foresee that happening?

Craig Whittaker (Conservative, Calder Valley)

Can I ask about the statutory footing of the virtual school head? Will that make any more difference to looked-after children than what currently happens?

Craig Whittaker (Conservative, Calder Valley)

So you think it is good but should be extended to 25. I have one final question. May I ask you about the adoption register and access for prospective adopters? Do you think that is a good idea or not?

Robert Buckland (Conservative, South Swindon)

This is for Ms Grauberg, essentially. I welcome your view as to the welcome news about the extension of the statutory duty to include clinical commissioning groups; it is something that I have been banging on about for ages and I am delighted that the Government have listened to me and others. What sort of impact do you think that that will have on the success of EHC plans?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

This is a question for Barnardo’s and Janet: given the provisions in the draft Care and Support Bill for adult carers, do you think that there is enough in this Bill that addresses the needs of young carers? If not, what would you like to see?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

May I take us back to special educational needs? Debbie in particular has been talking about implementation of many of these reforms, and clearly that is going to be a crucial element of their success. In relation to special educational needs, there is a lot of work going on in the pathfinders to test that implementation. Could you say from the ADCS’s point of view how that learning is going? What benefits are you starting to see for parents and children, particularly those who are trying to see a better-integrated assessment process?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

Does anyone else want to offer a view or share their experience?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

So do you think it would be helpful if those local authorities that are not among the 31 that have pathfinders in their area could start to benefit from the experiences that pathfinders have gained so far, share that best practice and start to learn from it now, rather than wait?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

May I quickly move on to fostering for adoption? What experience do you have within ADCS and potentially Barnardo’s of fostering for adoption, where it works well and what benefits you think it can bring for children in ensuring that they get the best possible outcomes?

Dai Havard (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

I am afraid I have to stop you, Mr Webb. I am very grateful to you, as the last set of witnesses this afternoon, for your indulgence and co-operation, but the time for consideration has now come to its end, albeit in a strange and convoluted way. The Committee will reconvene on Tuesday next to consider the Bill line by line.