Children and Families Bill

Public Bill Committee, 5 March 2013.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Before we begin our deliberations, let me say a few things. First, can we ensure that we are not interrupted by electronic devices? I shall hold it against someone personally if they allow our proceedings to be interrupted in that way. Next, my fellow Chairman and I will not normally accept starred amendments.

This morning, we will start by considering the programme motion on the amendment paper, on which debate is limited to half an hour. We will then proceed to a motion to report written evidence, followed by a motion to permit the Committee to deliberate in private before oral evidence sessions, both of which I hope we can take formally. Assuming the second of those motions is agreed, the Committee will move into private session. Once the Committee has deliberated—briefly, I hope—the witnesses and members of the public will be invited back into the room, and our oral evidence session will begin. If that is all agreed, we will hear oral evidence this morning.

I draw Members’ attention to the fact that the Bill has had a pilot public reading, which was administered by the House of Commons under the authority of the Chairman of Ways and Means. Members of the public were invited to comment on the Bill via a web forum on the Parliament website, and more than 1,000 comments were received and published. On your behalf, I thank all those who responded to the invitation to join the forum. A summary of the comments has been sent to Members and will be made available to the public if the Committee agrees the necessary motion in a few moments. The Chairman of Ways and Means and, no doubt, the public will be interested to see the extent to which the public reading consultation informs the Committee’s questions and deliberations.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Copies of memorandums the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee room.

Examination of Witnesses

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

I think everybody is familiar with our first three witnesses. Welcome to you all. Sharon, would you like to ask the first question?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

First, I wanted to say how much I welcome the letter Minister Timpson sent round last night containing the very welcome news about the duty to be placed on health in regard to education, health and care plans. That was fantastic news. We were told that the NHS constitution was a barrier to placing duties on health to deliver what is in an EHC plan. Are you in a position yet to elaborate on that, and why it has perhaps suddenly been resolved?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Will this help families with severely disabled children, who are often effectively trapped in the local authority in which they were born? Will it help make education, health and care plans more portable? Obviously the education needs were always portable, but what about health and perhaps social care needs? Will there still be issues around social care and the NHS constitution?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Chair, I have one last question for Mr Timpson, but could I then come back to Elizabeth Truss?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Yes, of course.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Will those in the school-based category, whatever it ends up being—those who were formerly School Action and School Action Plus—be counted as having an SEN, and therefore be tracked and reported on in the data that are published every year by virtue of the ?Special ?Educational ?Needs ?(Information) ?Act ?2008?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

And the reporting, the Special Educational Needs (Information) Act 2008 requirement, and the annual publication? Will those children’s outcomes be reported on?

Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

Minister Truss, what assessment have the Government made of the value of home-based care, particularly for the under-twos, through the childminding system? What assessment have the Government made of the likely impact on the availability and quality of childminders of the reforms to allow the creation of childminder agencies?

Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

So the expectation is that the number of childminders will increase quite significantly?

Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

Thank you. Minister Timpson, with regard to the tightening up of the time scales for adoption, what consideration has the Government given to providing support for families when their children are under consideration for adoption, perhaps under a stricter time scale than previously? What type of support will be given to those parents to enable them to become good enough parents and to take away the need for their children to be put up for adoption? Is there an intention to change the level of support available to families?

Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

Yes, absolutely.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Mr Timpson, you have given good assurance about what will happen to children moving from statements to the new plans, and in your comments about health services. Coming back to the point about children who are not statemented—there is a large number of such children in schools, whether or not they are on School Action or School Action Plus—those are the children about whom concern has been raised. You have touched on it a little, but can I bring you back to the question of resources and what happens to children who need services from outside school? Given the present funding climate and some of the longer-term problems, particularly with child and adolescent mental health services, how do you foresee those children receiving the support that they need, when they are not formally on a plan?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

You mentioned the local offer and the signposting it provides. As there will not be national standards, which is a concern raised by a lot of people, if the services are not there because of the financial constraints we have touched on, will that not be a real problem? We could end up with a patchy service across the country, with some families unable to access services even when the assessment suggests that they need them.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

At that, we will have Mr Skidmore.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Just one follow-up question, if you would not mind, Mr Chope.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

If you insist.

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

How far do you expect families to travel for services?

Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)

Following on from Mr Esterson’s point about special educational needs, when do you expect to publish the first set of draft regulations associated with this part of the Bill? Do you have a timetable for releasing the drafts to the Committee as it progresses?

Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)

Some of the clauses are obviously dependent on ongoing pilots. I am particularly interested in the pilots for personal budgets for adoptive parents. How are those progressing?

Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)

In terms of the proposal to allow prospective parents to have access to the adoption register, have you given much thought to how to monitor the effectiveness of that proposal? In particular, have you thought about what steps will prevent that resulting in intense competition for some children rather than others?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

I have a couple of questions for Minister Swinson. The first is about the right to request flexible working. I very much welcome the extension of that to people other than parents. As we discussed recently, can you give some assurances that the new code of practice on dealing with that in a reasonable manner will be at least as robust as the current statutory framework for dealing with flexible leave requests?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

Thank you. Turning to parental leave, as someone who is currently trying to persuade her husband to take some of his additional parental leave at the moment, do you think that the Bill goes far enough in lowering the barriers for fathers to take parental leave, particularly issues such as pay, workplace culture, and perhaps the idea that it is the mother’s leave, which she is then granting to share with her partner, as opposed to an entitlement for them both, right from the off?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

Finally, can I press you on the issue of pay and paternity pay? Are there any plans to make paternity pay a bit more generous, or to look at how we can start that off in the public sector, or whatever? I think that most fathers say that pay is the barrier to taking even their current entitlement to paternity leave.

Craig Whittaker (Conservative, Calder Valley)

If I can continue in the same frame, Minister Swinson, I am sure lots of people will welcome the reduction in the bureaucracy around flexible working. You have mentioned culture a lot, but what I do not hear about is the needs of business. To what extent will businesses be scared of the final paragraph, which talks about a tribunal? Have you considered what will take precedence: the needs of the parent for flexible working or the needs of the business?

Craig Whittaker (Conservative, Calder Valley)

Minister Timpson, may I ask you about the proposals to give Ministers powers to order or direct local authorities to outsource adoption services from other local authorities, or indeed voluntary adoption agencies? What is the aim of that move and how do you think it will affect the current ethos in local authorities?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

It is estimated that an extra 9,000 foster carers are needed. Obviously, the vast majority of children who are in the care system are in foster care. Why is there nothing in the Bill to improve support for foster carers and to encourage more foster carers to come forward?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Perhaps it would help if I go through one obvious example of a glaring omission in relation to foster care. Clause 5 places a duty on local authorities to provide information about post-adoption support. Why have you decided not to extend that duty to providing information to prospective foster carers as well?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Perhaps we can continue to discuss that over the next few months.

I want to ask you about the 26-week time limit. The House of Commons Library has told me that it cannot find any precedent for setting out prescribed time limits in primary legislation. Professor Eileen Munro said that the emphasis should be on timeliness and not on time limits to promote a change in social work culture. A host of children’s organisations have raised concerns that the time limit will work against the best interests of individual children. How do you plan to ensure that social work culture and the Munro reforms are protected and that children’s best interests are not undermined by the measure?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

That is very helpful; thank you. Finally, has there been a child impact assessment for this Bill, and if not, why not?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

So the assessment against the UNCRC that the Department has undertaken will be made available to this Committee?

Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)

I want to go back to young people with special educational needs and ask Minister Timpson whether he believes that the education, health and care plans will have sufficient flexibility for those between 16 and 25 who might fall in and out of college or find work placements and apprenticeships, and whether they will be able to act as a safety net. Such people might find themselves in work for a period of four or five years even, but then, at the age of 23 or 24, might find a need for those plans again.

Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)

Is there any danger that 25 becomes the new cliff edge, instead of 16? What can be done to resolve that and make the transition from being a young person to an adult as easy as possible?

Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)

I welcome the letter you sent yesterday. I think it will be a huge step forward, and it is something for which I have campaigned for 20 years, but it is going to be a seismic shock to the CCGs and to health services, so may I ask you a couple of questions on that and on the local offer? Will detailed guidance be issued on what constitutes a health need and on matters such as equipment and respite needs that may arise from a health need? The proposal is a move forward, but we need to think carefully, otherwise I can see lawyers making a lot of money out of this.

Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)

Do you intend to change the role of the SEN tribunal to take account of this new statutory duty on health?

Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)

May I ask you about the local offer? I am seeing a very different picture across the country as local authorities prepare for that. Some have provided very detailed guidance right down to school level: “In this school, a child with dyslexia can expect this.” Others are simply putting together a directory of existing services. Is it just down to the parent to take a judgment and to challenge? Or will organisations such as the Department for Education and Ofsted be looking to have a role?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

I am going to stop you there, Pat, because at least three more people want to get in.

Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)

Minister Truss, as a consequence of changes in the Bill, how do you envisage the local authority role changing?

Andy Sawford (Labour, Corby)

Minister Truss, given the importance of schedule 4, on childminder agencies, why was there no pre-legislative scrutiny?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

I would like to ask a little more about time limits for care placements. The council that I was leading until November was rated outstanding for all children’s services, including adoption, and had one of the fastest placement times. They were very worried that a 26-week time limit would seriously compromise the placement of children with complex needs, because it would put speed over appropriateness of placement—

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Shall we let the Minister respond, otherwise you may be timed out?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

I just want to know what reassurance the Minister can offer.

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

Can I ask how you will guarantee the quality of the social work, given that the majority of social workers now have case loads above the recommended level because of the size of cuts in local authority budgets?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

I am afraid we do not have time for the answer to that question, because we have reached 10 o’clock. I thank the Ministers for giving their evidence, and I am sure that the Minister will be more than willing to write to you with an answer to your question, Mr Reed.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

If everyone is sitting comfortably, I invite the witnesses to introduce themselves briefly, starting with Professor Selwyn.

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

The Bill places a requirement on local authorities to consider a fostering-for-adoption placement. I ask the panel whether they have any concerns about that, particularly in terms of what the practical implications of those fostering-for-adoption placements could be.

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Kevin, can I ask you in particular about whether you think that clause allows the views of children to be taken into account? Also, there is a wider question about whether you have any concerns about the Bill itself?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Could you just tell us how many concurrent planning placements Coram has placed children into?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Over what time scale is that?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

So it is quite an intensive process.

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

That is very helpful.

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

I think there is quite a bit of consensus on that. I suppose the question is that if you place children into unsuitable placements, there is a risk that that placement then breaks down. We obviously have to get that right.

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

No, but also to note how small the numbers have been over such a long time scale.

On the clause that removes due consideration of ethnicity from primary legislation, do you think the evidence supports the Government’s view that due consideration of ethnicity, religious persuasion and cultural heritage is causing delays in the adoption system? Are there any other factors that might contribute to delays for black and minority ethnic children being placed?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Thank you.

Gavin Barwell (Conservative, Croydon Central)

I want to pick up on the issue that Lisa just asked about. Professor Selwyn, I believe you have done some research into the different experiences of children who have different ethnicity from their adoptive parents. Will you talk the Committee through the key issues for local authorities, for parents and for children, in matching and supporting those placements?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Can I ask about the recruitment of adopters and foster carers? Should there be anything in the Bill about those issues, given the Government’s desire to speed up the process? Is that an issue? Is there anything you would like to see covered in the legislation?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

What would you like to see? Is there anything specific?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Do you mean as a right to both adopters and foster carers?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

That is helpful. The Bill majors on adoption and has relatively little about foster care, as we discussed in the previous sitting. Is there something on foster care in addition to what you just said, Kevin, that you would like to see?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Are there issues around contact with birth families that come out of that?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

Can I take you back to fostering for adoption? It is possible and has been taking place, albeit on a limited basis, in some local authorities. For instance, I visited east Sussex, where I met a couple who had gone through the process. Why do you think fostering for adoption has not been more widely used by local authorities?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

But that does not require primary legislation; there are plenty of foster carers who also adopt.

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

But you can be a foster carer at the same time as being an adopter.

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

Can I ask about the role of adopters in the matching process? Professor Selwyn, I know you have done some work and research in that area. What benefits do you think there would be if adopters were more proactive in the matching process, and more generally in the whole process of adoption?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

May I have one more?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

One quick one.

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

On the issue of adoption support, could you comment on the duty to inform in the Bill and on the development of the adoption passport and what benefit you think it will have?

Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)

May I briefly come back to that point? I have been involved with a lot of children with behavioural issues, many of whom are adopted. Too many of them are in situations that have broken down. In every situation in which I have spoken to parents, they have said that it was lack of information and lack of support, so that they were not prepared for when the challenges came. Do you see that as an important part linked to the lifelong support?

Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)

Thank you. I want to ask briefly about clause 7. The Education Committee has recently carried out a very detailed investigation into child protection. One of the biggest issues to come out of that was that neglect is neglected. For far too long, children are left in very neglectful and damaging situations while the adults sort out the adults’ problems. Do you see any danger that the balance between the needs of the child and the needs of the adult will be tipped in favour of the needs of the adult?

Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

Dr Homden, specifically, but also all the panel, can you confirm for the record that you agree that the attachment needs of a baby are absolutely paramount? We go round and round about attachment needs and the number of placements and so on, but the fundamental point is, is it not, that if you are securely attached by age two then your emotional resilience largely remains for the rest of your life.

The converse is the case. If you are moved from pillar to post, including from birth parents to foster placement and back again multiple times, it will have a profound impact on your whole mental health for the rest of your life. You are all nodding, but would any of you like to comment on that?

Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

With that in mind, where social services already have concerns about a pregnant woman—perhaps she has had other children taken away or has issues with drugs, alcohol or domestic violence and so on— is sufficient support provided to enable that pregnant woman to become sufficiently attuned? It goes to the issue not just of resources—we all know social workers are overworked—but is there the level of parent-infant psychotherapy, the kind of support to enable mums to really change their approach if they could access it?

Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

I completely agree with that; I just want us to expand on it. I chair the all-party group on Sure Start children’s centres, and there is a strong link between this issue and the 125,000 most troubled families. Very often, there are multiple children of a very troubled mum who go on to become extremely costly to society. I would be grateful for your comments on whether the Bill should be doing more to address the issue of a mum who has multiple births and whose children are taken away one after the other because of the problems that ensue.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

We have 10 minutes left, and at least four people want to come in.

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

I will be very quick then, Chair. I just want to go back to the point about kinship carers and extended family. I wholeheartedly agree with you that there are worries that the Bill perhaps supersedes some of the earlier guidance on that. Could you be a little more explicit about what you would like to see in the Bill to ensure that avenues of extended family fostering and then adoption continue?

Lucy Powell (Labour, Manchester Central)

Following on from that, do you see any other barriers in the Bill, in terms of the fostering-to-adopt model, perhaps putting off some extended family members if they cannot meet the requirements for adoption early on?

Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)

Does the panel welcome the Government’s proposals to put so-called virtual heads on a statutory footing in every local authority? Will that make a difference to the educational achievements of looked-after children?

Andy Sawford (Labour, Corby)

My question is to Kevin. Do you think some would-be adopters could be deterred by having to become foster parents before they adopt?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

If social work case loads are going up, and time scales are being shortened, will the quality of placements suffer?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

Is that partly a function of turnover because of high case loads?

Craig Whittaker (Conservative, Calder Valley)

I just wanted to go back to the point about post-adoption support; in fact, I think the point is about support in general, whether that is post-adoption support, support for fostering or whatever.

I wanted to touch base on that in particular, because 50% of children who go back to their parents actually return to the care system. I am sure I also read recently that 50% of children who return to their parents continue to suffer the same level of abuse or neglect. Kevin mentioned earlier that the Bill does not address that issue. Do we need legislation for that to happen?

Craig Whittaker (Conservative, Calder Valley)

For absolute clarity, are you saying, Carol, that we do not need legislation for that to happen?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Thank you very much for your help. We now move on to the next panel of witnesses.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Good morning. If our witnesses are comfortable, I ask them to introduce themselves briefly.

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Thanks very much to you all for coming and giving evidence to us. I wanted to start by asking you about clause 11, which is on parental involvement. Most of the stakeholders who have briefed us in advance of the Bill have said that there is no need for legislation on this. Is there, and why or why not?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Does anyone want to add anything?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

That is very helpful. May I ask you about another point in the Bill that is proving a little controversial—the 26-week time limit? Perhaps you can help us to consider that by talking us through the sort of case where 26 weeks would not be enough time. How likely is it that we will come across cases like that, where there will be a need for an extension that goes beyond the eight weeks? I would be interested in your thoughts on that, and on what you think the potential impact on individual children might be.

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Professor Hamilton, do you want to add anything to that?

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Could I just ask one final, quick question? In April, there will be huge changes to entitlement to legal aid; do you think that will have any impact on the issues that the Bill seeks to address?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Does the president of the family division wish to say anything about what Lord Neuberger has already said on this?

Jessica Lee (Conservative, Erewash)

First, I remind the Committee of my interest as a family law barrister. It is in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

May I return to care proceedings to start with? Thank you for reminding us of the 26-week guideline that is set out, and why we are working to that. There are so many cogs in the wheel that can cause cases to be delayed; there is court availability, expert availability, Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service officers, time to file reports, and so on. Is there one particular aspect in the complex world of care proceedings that either the president or Mr Norgrove could identify that is more troublesome and perhaps needs the most attention as we seek to reduce the time that these proceedings take?

Jessica Lee (Conservative, Erewash)

Following on from that, the guidelines on experts have been in place from 31 January and have been adopted and implemented with the new test. Has the panel confidence that this has set the right benchmark when courts consider the use of experts?

Jessica Lee (Conservative, Erewash)

I have one final question. Professor Hamilton, thank you for your opening statement, particularly on the issue of shared parenting. You have already answered a question on that issue, and your view is clear. I want to put a point to you. You are perhaps less averse to a clause in, or an addition to, the welfare checklist. I took your opening statement to mean that you would be less troubled about welfare checklists being changed to include a statement about the involvement of parents, or shared parenting. You concluded that there might be considerable amounts of litigation involved, even if it is in the welfare checklist. May I suggest to you that the welfare checklist might be the least problematic way to achieve a change? Would you accept that?

Jessica Lee (Conservative, Erewash)

If there is a change that uses the phrase “involvement”, the counter-argument is that that deals not just with the rights of parents, but their responsibilities. The focus could then move away from a definition of time, which is not what anybody seeks to change.

Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)

Going back to the time scales, in general, I support them. In terms of SEN statements, a 26-week limit means that most are now produced within that time as opposed to some taking up to five years, as was the case in 1995. However, the 26-weeks within the SEN statement limit are clearly broken down. For example, there are six weeks for the local authority, four weeks for parents to submit their evidence and four weeks for experts. At the very least, that identified those people who were not delivering, which in the case of SEN were the medics. Is there any argument for breaking down the 26 weeks so that it is not just an overall catch-all but says, “Within this period, this will happen”?

Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)

If that is not happening now—you have said that too many cases are taking too long—is there an argument for including that in statutory guidance at least?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

We are going to do the quick fire round now. David Norgrove, as chair of the Family Justice Board, you are clearly working very closely with Mr Justice Ryder and his efforts to try to tackle the huge delay that we find in the family court system. You mentioned the tri-borough project that is currently going on in London, where we have seen the length of time that care cases take within that pilot level out at about 24 weeks—they will not tell me whether it has moved from that figure more recently. Is there any evidence from those cases that have been completed within 24 weeks in the tri-borough that the quality of decision making or the idea that the child’s welfare is the paramount consideration has been affected by the time scales in which the cases were completed?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

From the evidence that you have seen elsewhere in the family circuit of other courts and their capacity to make this change, are you confident that the experience of the tri-borough project can be replicated across the system?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

But you are clear, from your recommendations in your review, that the 26-week time limit is an important one to set, bearing it in mind that the public law outline that was tried before did not have the same statutory basis or bring about the changes that we are now seeing.

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

Just on that point, could I ask the president of the family division, on your travels around the care centres, has there been any dissent from judges with whom you have had the opportunity to discuss the 26-week timetable, that they do not believe that they will complete the vast majority of cases before them justly within the 26-week limit?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

Finally, Professor Hamilton, you have spoken about the parental involvement clause—I will ask you a question about that in a moment—but there are a number of other elements in the Bill that are trying to tackle the same issue of reducing unnecessary conflict between parents and to focus people’s minds and attention, particularly those of parents, on the child rather than their own personal difficulties. We see that through the mediation, information and assessment meetings, the child arrangements orders and efforts to try to improve enforcement where things go wrong. Do you support those measures and the overarching principle in the Bill of trying to reduce conflict between parents within the family system—and doing so before they even get there, which is one of the problems that needs to be addressed?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

Thank you very much. On the parental involvement clause, questioning earlier and some of the evidence that you submitted referred back to the Australian experience, and was about not moving to a situation in which the involvement that a parent has in their child’s life and vice versa is about time rather than quality. We have also been explicit in the explanatory notes that this is not about time. Do you accept that? Are the explanatory notes clear that that is exactly the position we are proposing—hence, why we made it so explicit?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

There are no more questions, so it only remains for me to thank our panel for their expertise—with a capital e. We are indebted to them for that, and for giving up their valuable time.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Good afternoon, and thank you for coming. Will you briefly introduce yourselves, and then we can have the first question?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Good afternoon. I am sure that you have heard the news and are as pleased as I am that the Minister has said that there will now be a duty on clinical commissioning groups to provide what is set out in education, health and care plans. Obviously, we are still waiting to see the detail of that and the actual clauses. I imagine that that was going to be one of your biggest asks, so what is your next biggest priority, in terms of amendments?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Christine and Matthew?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

There are children who may or may not have a disability, but who do have a long-term medical condition; I am thinking especially of children with diabetes or epilepsy. Obviously, children with epilepsy can have other conditions that may or may not warrant them an education, health and care plan, but thinking more along the lines of medical conditions in and of themselves, if we are reforming this system in a once-in-every-30-years opportunity, what is the best way to account for and monitor those children, and to make sure that their needs are met?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Do you have anything to add, or are you happy with that?

Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)

Picking up on Sharon’s point about children and young people with health issues, how do you feel that the EHC plans will work for young people who might have mental health conditions? As we try to move towards parity between physical and mental health, do you have any concerns about those young people who might have, for example, eating disorders?

Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)

Thank you. On an unrelated point, most of us who have dealt with parents of children who have special educational needs are very conscious of those parents having to fight for their needs all the time. Do you feel that this Bill addresses those parents who perhaps are not as articulate or not as determined, or is there a danger that those children will still fall through the cracks?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

I want to ask about personal budgets. What impact do you think the provisions will have? Are the pilots flagging up any concerns, and do you think the provisions go far enough?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

Do the provisions in the Bill allow enough scope for what you have just described to develop?

Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)

It is estimated that about three quarters of disabled children have special educational needs, and so would be covered by the Bill. Do you all agree with that?

Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)

Do you agree with it?

Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)

A moment ago, we mentioned covering children with specific needs, such as asthma and diabetes. Am I right in saying that they do not need specific educational provision, and that you are looking to widen out the terms of reference from special educational needs?

Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)

I am sure we all recognise that we have one of the tightest funding settlements for decades. Where do you think it would be fair for the Government to place their priorities? I do not want to sound like I am favouring any one group in particular. Pupils with diabetes or asthma may come from a social background that is very different from that of children who have been abused or adults with special education needs who need social care services.

Chris Skidmore (Conservative, Kingswood)

So that the Committee can get a clearer picture of what you are talking about in terms of that structure, could you give specific examples of where you feel that extending education and health care plans would benefit particular children? Is there anything you have in mind, rather than just setting out the general picture?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Reading through the evidence from Every Disabled Child Matters, Matthew, you say you welcome the entitlements that young people will get in further education up to 25, and I think we all do. We will hear from the Association of Colleges, which has particular concerns about funding, but that is not for you. You go on to talk about young people who are not in education, employment or training, and you say a plan would be vital to get them back in. Can you expand on that point?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Are university students not well covered by the provisions already?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

So you think it should be nought to 25, whatever their route through education is?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

Can I take us back to the health duty? We rather skated over it without too much discussion. Christine, how do you think the new health duty will help children and young people with SEN in practice?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

On redress through health, do you want to say a little bit more about where you think some of the new structures within the health service can be more closely integrated? I am thinking in particular of HealthWatch England and its potential to be a champion for patients and young people.

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

May I—

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Can I just bring in Bill, and then perhaps you can come back?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

If it is just signposting for everybody and not on a plan, what happens if there is not a service in the immediate locality? What are your concerns about lack of co-ordination?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Given the Government’s reluctance to do more than require signposting, is there anything that you can see within the framework they are proposing that could firm that up?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Is there a duty for sufficiency?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Is that not after the event though?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

The only question that comes out of that is: if the services are not there and you discover that in your feedback loop, how do you discover that quickly and put them in?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Should the Bill include time scales for local authorities to respond to requests by parents for an assessment of education, health and care plans? What role should educational psychologists have in this new process?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Is that the same for you?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

Very briefly, do you think that SENCOs should be qualified teachers?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

The other document we published today is the SEN pathfinder programme report. I do not know whether you have had an opportunity to familiarise yourself with it, but I encourage you to do so. One of the areas that Christine touched on earlier was that the Bill also has to help to create the framework for the culture change needed on the ground—to recalibrate the way that professionals work and their behaviour around each other, so it is much more co-ordinated and parents are much more involved in the process from the start. I accept that you may not have digested every element of this report, but the suggestion is that there has been good progress, with parents feeling that they are more involved and more valued as a consequence. With your knowledge of the pathfinders, do you see them as an important contribution to making that culture change? How do you see them working over the next 12 to 18 months to spread change more widely, beyond the current 31 local authorities where the pathfinders operate?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Before you answer, I shall ask Craig to put his question so you can answer at the same time.

Craig Whittaker (Conservative, Calder Valley)

Mine is very quick and will take you back to adding disabled children to the Bill. Christine, you said that this Bill was part of a process of culture change. While I accept your points, particularly about those with disabilities but without special educational needs, is there not a danger that by putting disabled children into the same Bill, we will give them an extra label that will disadvantage them?

Craig Whittaker (Conservative, Calder Valley)

But we do not label them as having special educational needs.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Thank you very much, all three of you, for contributing to our deliberations. We now move on to the next panel, because time is pressing.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Good afternoon, and thank you for coming along. Could you briefly introduce yourselves?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Good afternoon. I have specific questions for each of you, so I will direct each question rather than you answering each one, unless you want to add something to a question even though it was not directed to you. I will start with Brian Lamb. Do you think that the Bill will increase parental confidence—you did the Lamb review on parental confidence, so I thought that there would be nobody better to answer this question—in the SEN system? What more might be needed properly to achieve that goal?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

I have another question for Brian. How do we ensure that children who are not covered by an education, health and care plan achieve their best outcomes, with a view to closing the gap between children with SEN and children who do not have SEN?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

My next question is to Jane from Independent Parental Special Education Advice. I want us to look at this from a parental point of view. Do you think that, in general, the Bill will do what parents have been led to expect it will?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Is the Bill as it stands assuming too much of parents and their ability to participate in the process?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

I am sure people will want to explore further what you have both said. I have one last question for Professor Dockrell. You are from the Institute of Education, and early intervention is key to addressing lots of SEN: the sooner it is identified the better with regard to outcomes, specifically around speech and literacy issues. Do you think that the Bill puts enough emphasis on early intervention? What more might be done in this regard?

Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)

I think I need to declare an interest. Brian and I worked together on the Lamb inquiry; I provided the professional support from the Department.

Brian, under the local plan in the Bill at the moment, the responsibility to monitor and to challenge rests with parents. What would you like to see in the Bill that assists parents with both the monitoring and the challenge role?

Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)

Thank you. Jane, we heard last night—you heard this morning—about the duty on health, which is very welcome and we have all campaigned for it for a long time. However, in my experience, most parents who are seeking often very expensive residential placements for their children do so because of the lack of social care and health support. Given this, would you be looking for the Bill to contain an equally statutory duty on social care? What do you think should be the role of the tribunal in this?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Coming back to what Jane and Brian have been saying about concerns about the local offer and the changes away from School Action Plus, what would you like to see added to deal with the access to services outside school?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Is that similar to the point that has been put to me about schools in my borough, where the money goes into the budget at the start of the year, but if there are changes in need or if children transfer, as happens a lot with SEN children in particular, there is a big impact, particularly on smaller schools?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

You both mentioned the role of the local authority. What about the impact of the growing number of academies and free schools?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Have you got any particular recommendations for changes to strengthen the legislation?

Bill Esterson (Labour, Sefton Central)

Yes.

Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)

Jane, I probably should know this, but on the issue of academies, could you clarify what you just said? If the academy cannot provide, the duty as it is at the moment rests with the local authority?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

Are we in a position to move ahead with personal budgets for education provision, given delays to the pilots?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

Are you looking for changes in the provisions of the Bill to deal with that?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

A final point, if I may. London Councils, a cross-party organisation, has expressed concern that free schools are able to avoid taking their fair share of students with challenging needs. Is that a concern that you share?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

Do other panel members agree with that view? It sounds very serious to me.

Jessica Lee (Conservative, Erewash)

Thank you all for coming. I have been reflecting on the fact that you all have great expertise and are coming from different angles. With that in mind, I wondered which single aspect of the Bill each of you welcomed the most—which bit stood out to you?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

May I take you back to the discussion you had around the SEN school-based category? Brian, I know that your inquiry in 2009 found that SEN can sometimes be unhelpfully correlated with falling behind. One of the statistics that you came across was that “At the end of Key Stage 2, August-born pupils are 60% more likely to be identified as having SEN than September-born pupils”, which is quite a stark statistic. Do you feel that the current two-category school-based system is the right one? If not, do you think that moving to a single category, and the greater emphasis on early identification and more rounded responsibility within the school across all teachers for raising the quality of provision within the school for children with identified special educational needs, is the way forward?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

One of the elements that has come out of the pathfinders relates to the role of key workers. I imagine that you have not had an opportunity to see the report that has come out today, because you have probably had your minds on other things. You probably do not need encouragement to read it; I am sure that you have read all the other ones with great excitement. Although key workers, or navigators or assessment co-ordinators—they come with different names—may not be required in every single case, it is clear from the pathfinders that many parents who have had the opportunity to work with them at specific points, in particular at the assessment phase and also during transitional periods, have found them to provide an extremely helpful and comforting level of support, which helps bind together all the elements of support and makes it much clearer to them what they are entitled to and how they access that support. This is for everybody on the panel. Would you care to say anything about the role of key workers and how you think they should form part of the reforms going forward?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Before you answer that question, I am going back to Sharon to ask a question because we will run out of time.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

This question is specifically for Professor Dockrell, because she has come along in a specific capacity, as an educator and trainer of teachers. It is around teacher training and with regard to work force development, initial teacher training and continuous professional development. Should we be addressing that more in the Bill? Have we missed an opportunity? It is the skills of the work force that help to identify the high incidence needs. I am talking about those children who will not get an education, health and care plan.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

And it is not on the face of the Bill. There is nothing about that.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

That brings us to the end of our time. We must go on to the next group of witnesses. Thank you very much for your help this afternoon.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Good afternoon. Thank you for coming along. May we have brief introductions, please, so people know who you are?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

I will start with Wendy, if I may, from the Communication Trust. Speech and language delay is often one of the most under-identified SEN—I think we would all agree about that. Do you think that the duty in the Bill to identify children with SEN is strong enough?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

As you know, in our young offenders institutions and unfortunately then in prisons, we find a very large number of young people and young adults who have speech, language and communication needs. Do you think that it is helpful, or the right thing, that the support plan is going to cease when a young person enters the criminal justice system? Do you have any ideas of how that support could continue or be picked up again?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Is there a way that could work? From conversations with the Minister, I understand that such support comes under the Ministry of Justice once a child enters the criminal justice system. It is supposed to pick that up. Is there a way for that to happen, or would the Department for Education have to take control of the education of such youngsters?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

What happens at the moment when a young person enters the youth justice system and when they come back out? If they had a statement or not, what happens at the moment? We want the new system to be better than what we have got; obviously we do not want it to be worse.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

I have a question for Kate. Why do you feel that the Government need to prescribe centrally the specialist professionals who contribute to future statutory assessments? I read that in your evidence.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

We know that pathfinders have been extended. There is a report today that the Minister mentioned; I have not had time to read it yet, but I am sure I will read it over night. What has your impression been of the progress made by the pathfinders, specifically with regard to the role of educational psychologists?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Thank you, Kate.

Jane, what do you think the role should be for a SENCO in a school? Does the Bill give them enough clout with regard to driving improvements to provision? Should they continue to require the national award?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Do you think the SENCO needs to be a member of the senior management team or that it would be helpful if they were?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

A very quick follow up: is there a correlation between the outcomes for children who have special educational needs and whether or not the SENCO is a member of the senior leadership team?

Andrea Leadsom (Conservative, South Northamptonshire)

May I ask the panel about the very youngest children? Do you think the Bill deals with the needs of babies and infants, who may develop or be born with a disability that obviously predates the ability to put a statement together? Does the Bill deal with the protection of those children’s needs, or should it do more?

Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)

For the record, I should say that Kate and I have worked together over many years in many places. Kate, we all recognise the unique and valuable contribution that educational psychologists make. Yet successive Governments—not just this Government, but the previous one—have failed to identify the funding for the training of educational psychologists. EPs are expensive, so local authorities have sought to reduce their numbers in comparison to some other groups. We have seen a real drop in numbers recently, which is extremely worrying. What would you like to see, either on the face of the Bill or in the statutory guidance, about the future funding and training of EPs?

Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)

Do you think it is important to have the central role acknowledged?

Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)

Jane, I have worked with Lorraine Petersen over many years, looking at the role of SENCOs. I know we were concerned, first that SENCOs were not the head teacher, secondly that they were qualified teachers, and thirdly that they were part of the leadership team. Again, are you disappointed that that is not on the face of the Bill?

Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)

Does that need to be on the face of the Bill, or could it be in the statutory guidance?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

Does the legislation need to define time scales for local authorities to respond to requests for assessments?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

Do you welcome the proposals in the legislation for personal budgets?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

To you, and then everyone.

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

If there were to be a brokerage of the kind you describe, would that fit best in the local authority or elsewhere?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

Which direction would that push you towards: more or less personalisation given the risk of fragmentation?

Steve Reed (Labour, Croydon North)

So personalisation within parameters?

Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)

I am sorry, but this is again directed at Kate, who seems to have been on the spot all afternoon. This is question about mental health as well as physical health. Are you confident that the health and care plans will embrace equally the needs of those young people with SEN who also have a mental health need?

Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)

Thank you. Entirely unrelated to that, you mentioned that it is important that assessments be done in a timely manner, but are you confident that the provisions in the Bill will ensure that assessments are of the highest quality?

Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North)

No, that is fine.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

I have a question for Wendy. As you will be aware, the majority of children with speech, language and communication needs do not have a statement, so they are probably not likely to have an education, health and care plan. How confident are you that their needs will be met under the school-based category and the local offer, as they currently are in the Bill? Obviously, that is without having seen the new code of conduct.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Once those needs are met with the children, there is always the issue at the moment about who pays. Does health or education pay for the speech therapy? Obviously, we have not seen the detail of the duty on health, but do you envisage that, hopefully, it would become clearer? Who do you think should pay for speech therapy?

Jessica Lee (Conservative, Erewash)

My question is for Kate as well. You said at the end of your notes about the Bill that you welcome the extension of the age of young people to those aged 19 to 25. You go on to say that that will require some adjustments within services and work force planning. That is a very good practical point, and I just wondered if you have any further thoughts on what those practical issues may be and, particularly with the work force point, how we would go about beginning to engage with it.

Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)

I want to clarify something that Wendy said. Wendy, you said that if speech and language is identified on a statement, it is the responsibility of education. My understanding is that that is not correct, that the legal duty and the funding lie with health, and that case law has said, over years, if health fails to provide, which it so frequently does, the responsibility falls on education. Kate, now that it looks as though we will have the statutory duty on health—and that health will provide for what is a statutory health duty, for which it has the funding, arguably—do you think that that will have an impact on standards, given that in the past, so much education money has been spent on health provision?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

One of the aims of the Bill is to try and tackle the transition periods through education—particularly moving into education, from primary to secondary, and beyond secondary, which would currently be into a different system of assessment. In order to ensure that there is the best consistency and co-ordination of assessment and support through transition periods, what do you think are the most important elements that should be put in place to have that transition as smooth as possible?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

I have a final quick question for NASEN. I know how you advocate that there should be better work-force development for the whole work force within the mainstream classroom, for obvious reasons, which we spoke about earlier. Do you think that there is a missed opportunity with the Bill?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

I am afraid we have to finish there, because it is a quarter past 4. Thank you very much for your assistance. It was a great contribution.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Can I give our new panel a very warm welcome? Thank you for coming along. Can I ask you briefly to introduce yourselves?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

I will start with David Bartram, if I may. Welcome. In your statement, you talk about the importance of good leadership when it comes to improving outcomes. How might that be achieved in policy terms? How would you translate that into policy?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

I will come back to you on another topic in a moment. I will just move on to Russell Hobby, following on in the leadership theme. Clearly, the quality of the leadership is important in ensuring that schools provide well for children with SENs. Do you think that heads and leadership teams have enough expertise in that regard?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

To follow that up, do you think that identifying and catering for SEN is currently as prominent as it should be in initial teacher training and continuing professional development, especially with regard to the high incidence needs, as you highlighted?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Coming back to David, do you think that overidentification is as big an issue as it is claimed to be, or at all? I know you sit on numerous organisations. Do your colleagues across the board welcome these reforms?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

BESD is overidentified?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Sorry to interrupt, but is that the fault of the teachers who are identifying the children, in not being able to identify what is behind the behaviour or the issue that needs addressing?

The rest of the debate is in Hansard.