HGV Road User Levy Bill
Public Bill Committee, 4 December 2012.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Before we begin, I have a few preliminary announcements to make. Members may, if they wish, remove their jackets during meetings; I do not think it is that warm at the moment, but you may get hot as a question develops. Can all Members please ensure that mobile phones are switched off? We do not want any daft Christmas ringtones playing just at the moment. Please also switch off pagers or switch them to silent mode.
As a general rule, my fellow Chairman and I do not intend to call starred amendments which have not been tabled with adequate notice; the Clerk will need adequate notice of such things. The required notice period in Public Bill Committees is three working days; therefore, amendments should be tabled by the rise of the House on Monday for consideration on a Thursday and by the rise of the House on Thursday for consideration on a Tuesday. Please note that the House is now expected to rise at 5.30 pm on Thursdays.
For those members of the Committee less familiar with the process of taking oral evidence in Public Bill Committees—I imagine that is quite a lot of colleagues— it may help if I briefly explain how the Committee is supposed to proceed. It will first be asked to consider the programme motion on the amendment paper, for which debate is limited to half an hour. I doubt whether we necessarily need that, but technically we have half an hour. We will then proceed to a motion to report written evidence and a motion to permit the Committee to deliberate in private in advance of the oral evidence sessions, which I hope can be taken formally. Assuming that the last of those motions is agreed to, the Committee will then move into private session. Once it has deliberated, the witnesses and members of the public will be invited back into the room and our oral evidence session will begin. If the Committee agrees to the programme motion, we will hear oral evidence this morning. I call the Minister to move the programme motion standing in his name.
Stephen Hammond (Conservative, Wimbledon)
I beg to move,
That—
(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 8.55 am on Tuesday 4 December) meet—
(a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 4 December;
(b) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 6 December;
(c) at 8.55 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 11 December;
(d) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 13 December;
(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence on Tuesday 4 December in accordance with the following Table:
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Copies of memorandums the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room.
Examination of Witnesses
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Good morning. We will now hear oral evidence from representatives of Tandem Transport, Clugston Distribution and ABE (Ledbury). I say to our witnesses that such evidence sessions are about three or four years old—we never used to have them before considering Bills. They are supposed to be an opportunity for members of the Committee, who are already greatly enlightened, to become even more enlightened by the answers you give.
This is your opportunity as witnesses to get on the record your views about the measure before us. Gentlemen, I assume you have not done anything like this before. Do enjoy the session. Colleagues are very pleasant, by and large. Will witnesses please briefly introduce themselves with a short statement about this measure?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Thank you for that, gentlemen. Can you please try to project your voices so that colleagues can hear what you are saying in your nice Welsh lilt? Otherwise, it is also difficult for the Hansard reporters who are responsible for the record.
Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and that we must stick strictly to the timings in the programme order the Committee has agreed. I hope I will not have to interrupt Members or witnesses mid-sentence, but I will do so if necessary. This sitting draws to a close at 10 o’clock or before.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
It is a pleasure to see you presiding this morning, Mr Amess. I, too, welcome the witnesses and assure them that, as our previous debates have made clear, the Bill has cross-party support so nobody will be asking any trick questions; this is very much evidence gathering. With that in mind, I turn to your comments, Mr Brickley, and the following comment in your written submission:
“Without such a system I fear that VOSA will either get a lot of requests about foreign operators or UK operators will feel they have not paid.”
Could you perhaps elaborate on your views about enforcement? I am sure you have seen our discussions and the questions we have been asking about how it will work. Have you any views on enforcement in addition to those you have articulated?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Gentlemen, could you both also respond to Mr Fitzpatrick’s question?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
I declare an interest: I am the chairman of a company that operates 14 HGVs. I welcome our expert witnesses. What do you think about the trigger point for the levy being set at vehicles plated over 12 tonnes? Do you think that is the right level? Should it be lower or higher?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
Could the Committee get any data from sources estimating or calculating the number of foreign goods vehicles entering the country below 12 tonnes plated weight, and what bands they are in?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
I understand that the Department has already received this information. We cannot get information ourselves, but if it could be sent to the Department then it could distribute it.
Stephen Hammond (Conservative, Wimbledon)
That is helpful. If we have that evidence or it is sent to us, I will ensure that it is distributed to the Committee.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Excellent.
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
It is good to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Amess. May I follow up on Mr Brickley’s point? You seem to say that there is a difficulty in people accepting that payment has been made because no licence is displayed on the vehicle. I have used the roads in Australia, where my family live. You can buy a little thing that you stick on the windscreen, and as you pass any of the toll roads you do not have to stop, but you are then charged. You have an account. If you hire a vehicle, when you return it, it has all the charges you have incurred. Are you saying that you do not anticipate that anything will be put on the overseas vehicles to indicate that they are licence-paying? Would it be worth the expenditure to give people who register to drive in the UK something to indicate that they are licence-payers, or that would record their movements?
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
I am sure that that is most helpful to the people who draft the regulations in the Bill.
Marcus Jones (Conservative, Nuneaton)
Often, one of the greatest burdens on small and medium-sized businesses is regulation and red tape. Do you see this measure creating an extra administrative burden on your businesses, and how do you judge that? Is that extra burden proportionate, in your view, to what you would like to see achieved?
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
As my speech on Second Reading showed, I have many questions about the Bill. On liability for levy, the Minister said on Second Reading that the driver of the vehicle would be liable, but clause 4 clearly states that, for non-UK vehicles,
“each person who is the holder of a Community licence in respect of the vehicle is liable”.
Do you have any advice about who should carry the liability? Drivers could change regularly but the registered keeper would probably be static, as in your own situation. Do you agree that the driver of a foreign vehicle should not be the person to chase for the levy, since drivers are likely to change?
Alan Reid (Liberal Democrat, Argyll and Bute)
It is good to see you in the Chair this morning, Mr Amess. Do the witnesses think that the £5,000 fine provides enough of a deterrent to encourage operators to pay the charge up front, voluntarily? Is that fine set at the right level?
Alan Reid (Liberal Democrat, Argyll and Bute)
Do you think it would act as enough of a fear factor, even though you do not have a disc on the lorry? If you were going to a foreign country and could be fined £5,000, would you pay up front, even though there was nothing actually to show that you were there illegally—just the fear that you might get caught?
Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Amess. We have talked about the possibility of impounding vehicles. If we get serial repeat offenders, would you consider confiscation of vehicles or a custodial sentence for the owner or driver as being appropriate?
Andrew Bingham (Conservative, High Peak)
What is your experience of paying levies like this when your wagons go abroad? Is there anything that is done abroad that we can learn from in this country? I am interested to know what sort of levies you have to pay when the wagons go abroad. Let us start with Vincent and move across.
Andrew Bingham (Conservative, High Peak)
The road tolls that you pay on the auto-routes or whatever.
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Amess. I would like to go back to the setting of the weight limit. I am afraid I cannot picture 7.5 tonnes and what that means in terms of vehicle size. Can you give me a little more information about the difference in damage to roads and the number of foreign operators coming over in vehicles of less than 10 tonnes?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
You seemed to indicate that there are some foreign operators coming over with smaller vehicles. Have you any idea of the quantity?
Gavin Williamson (Conservative, South Staffordshire)
Mr Amess, it is, of course, an absolute delight to serve under your chairmanship, as has been mentioned a number of times before. It is a real pleasure to see how warmly welcomed the Bill is on all sides; that is quite unusual for a Bill Committee sitting.
Why do you think there has been inaction? I remember campaigning back in the early 2000s for something called a Britdisc, but the last Government did not do anything. Why do you think they were so reluctant?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Mr Heath, Mr Brickley, any comment?
Stephen Doughty (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Mr Amess, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship in my first Bill Committee. I represent a south Wales constituency and have a heavy amount of HGV traffic, particularly with foreign owners, so I am particularly keen on this measure. Also, having experienced an HGV owned by a foreign operator smash into bollards and barriers in my constituency recently, I am obviously very keen they make a fair contribution to the wear and tear they are causing.
You undoubtedly have some contact with foreign owners and drivers—or your drivers do. Do you think that the foreign owners and operators recognise that this is, in some way, going to level the playing field; that the game is somehow up? Do you think they feel this in any way? Obviously this is only one step towards levelling the playing field, but do you think they recognise that this is a good measure?
Stephen Doughty (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Do you think that they recognise that this is going to be a step to level the playing field? Has there been any feedback that you have experienced from the foreign operators? Do they fear this?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
On that controversial note, I call Mr Bridgen.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
I am picking up that the panel is obviously very keen to have some physical demonstration that vehicles have paid the road user levy. I put it to you that that is for the satisfaction of the domestic haulers industry to see that the levy has been paid, and perhaps to aid VOSA in the apprehension of transgressors. People who have not paid could be reported by business, haulier, and so on. If we did that, though, would we not have to bring in another fine for having paid the levy but not displaying a current tax disc? That would have to be a lesser fine of perhaps £2,500, for having a disc but not having it displayed in the window.
With regard to enforcement, do you agree that VOSA is fairly efficient most of the time, and that it would be a sensible way forward to stop vehicles from moving which were not displaying a road user levy disc, or which had not paid the levy, by the issue of a GV9, which would not be lifted until either the fine or the levy had been paid?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
If you are not displaying a current tax disc in your lorries, you would get fined.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
Gentlemen, you have all acknowledged that the amount of revenue raised from the scheme is not going to be massive. You will also have seen, I am sure, that we have had discussions about hypothecation and where the revenue raised should go—whether it should go to road maintenance, infrastructure etc. I was interested in a comment made by, I think, Mr Boyle, that the money should go to VOSA. Was there a reason for your nominating VOSA as a recipient of the revenues? Was it to improve enforcement? Do you think VOSA is suffering a bit at the moment?
Marcus Jones (Conservative, Nuneaton)
On the rebate, which is obviously something that all of your companies will be involved with, do you think that the Bill contains sufficient provision to discourage fraud in relation to how the rebate will work?
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
My point has mainly been covered by an earlier question, but I was quite buoyed up by the fact that road hauliers were quite happy that this was not going to make a large amount of money and therefore defray their costs by reducing their HGV licence costs. However, I notice that it is anticipated that it will make £80 million net—I hope it is net—between 2013 and 2017, so it is not a great deal of money over that period. However, it is, in fact, anticipated that that will go to the Consolidated Fund, in other words, into the Chancellor’s back pocket. You have clearly expressed the view that it should go not into the Chancellor’s back pocket but into transport uses, specifically to VOSA. You have cleared that point up, and hopefully everyone is listening and will speak to the Chancellor appropriately and tell him to keep his hands off.
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
As, for many years, the fines for speed cameras went into the Treasury, not into anything relevant to the roads.
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
To follow up on a point that I made and to tidy up the question of the rebate system, I noticed also—one of these wonderful comments made by Government—that, “by and large”, UK operators will be no worse or better off. “By and large” could mean anything; how long is a piece of elastic? Are the hauliers satisfied with the system that will be used for the rebates? Are we sure that once the money has been paid in, there will not be a cash-flow problem caused by waiting for the rebate to reduce the amount that is paid? Will the defraying system be automatic and immediate? Clearly, if there were problems with paying tax and receiving rebates—
Alan Reid (Liberal Democrat, Argyll and Bute)
Mr Boyle said earlier that the Bill would level the playing field a little bit. Have you any suggestions for changes we could make to the Bill that might level the playing field more?
Alan Reid (Liberal Democrat, Argyll and Bute)
Any suggestions from any of the others, other than changing EU law?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Are there any more questions before I bring the Minister in? The Minister, then.
Stephen Hammond (Conservative, Wimbledon)
Thank you, Mr Amess. Gentlemen, thank you very much for coming in this morning. Thank you for your support for the Bill, and for the recognition that we have tried very hard to keep administrative costs low. I am grateful for that. To clarify, we believe that 94% of UK hauliers will be no worse off than they are now, and 98% will by worse off by only £50 or less. That is how we tried to create the scheme.
Can I go back to three things that I want to test you on? The first is back to the point about the disc. The Department obviously considered very carefully whether to go down the line of some physical recognition. One of the reasons why we chose not to do so was the administrative cost on everybody. Secondly, there was the possibility of fraud by foreign hauliers and thirdly, the ANPR system is now sufficient, with the database that will be constructed. Could we have your comments on that?
Stephen Hammond (Conservative, Wimbledon)
I can assure you that there is no intention to kick it into the long grass. Far from it: we have moved quickly to ensure simultaneous introduction.
Can I just test you on the point of fines? I think I clarified on Second Reading what the Secretary of State had said and extended that to say that if a UK haulier infringes, then it is the registered owner who pays the fine. If it is a foreign vehicle it will be the driver, because they are physically present, unless we have the address of the keeper and then we will fine them. We took suggestions on this. Does that seem a sensible way forward?
Stephen Hammond (Conservative, Wimbledon)
We can take a deposit off the driver against the keeper, and we can impound the vehicle as well. So both of those are possible.
Stephen Hammond (Conservative, Wimbledon)
We have, potentially, those powers. Finally, can I come back to enforcement and VOSA? I have two points. First, I believe it was Mr Boyle’s comment that it is well known where VOSA sits on the roads of this country. If he would care to let us know, so that I can ensure that VOSA does not sit on those roads, but sits on other roads, I would be very grateful.
Secondly, in terms of enforcement, clearly VOSA will need extra moneys because of the extra duties. The Department has done a calculation for that and will be making somewhere between £500,000 and £1 million extra available to VOSA to do that, and VOSA thought that that was an adequate sum. Do you have any comments on that?
Stephen Hammond (Conservative, Wimbledon)
Thank you for your time, gentlemen.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Colleagues, were there any other questions that anyone wanted to ask or are we all done? That being the case, I thank our witnesses very much indeed for the time spent with us today. We are pleased that you are pleased and, on behalf of the Committee, may I wish you all a very happy Christmas?
Examination of Witnesses
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Good morning to our new witnesses. I do not know whether you were here at the start of our proceedings, but I assume that none of you has previously given evidence before a parliamentary Committee? My colleagues are very pleasant indeed, and they understand the pressure you may be under. This is simply an evidence session, so this is your opportunity to enlighten the Committee and to share your views as thus constructed. Would you kindly introduce yourselves and, perhaps, make a brief statement on the Bill, starting with Mr Slater?
Jim Fitzpatrick (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
Good morning, gentlemen. Obviously, you have heard the previous discussion, so you know the general direction in which colleagues are moving. Mr Slater, will you elaborate on your comment that you anticipate that about 20% of your fleet will be affected? Will you describe what that means to the company and how it will affect you?
Jim Fitzpatrick (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
How much would that be in monetary terms?
Jim Fitzpatrick (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
And Mr Spittle, the assessment of the impact on Stobart?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
May I also make a declaration of interest that we have a large operating centre for DHL in North West Leicestershire in my constituency, which employs some 4,500 people? Regarding the administration of the Bill, which we mentioned with regard to the smaller hauliers, do you see any impact of added administrative burden if the levy were to come in at the moment? Perhaps also a question we asked the smaller hauliers which they could not answer because they were basically UK operators: what are the costs for a UK operator trying to tout for business in continental Europe?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
You are aware that we cannot set the daily road use at any more than €11. That really does not compare with the cost of a UK haulier moving through Germany and paying €100 for 300 miles.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
Do you want to explain to the rest of the Committee what a Euro 5 engine is?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
I did not quite follow why it is costing you more. I understood the argument in relation to vehicles, but why is that going to be more?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
The VED is less at the moment than the charge levied?
Marcus Jones (Conservative, Nuneaton)
Mr Slater, I was interested in the comments that you made in relation to the Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland border. You raised an important point about enforceability. Can you expand on that, and what are your views on how the levy might be administered or enforced on the Northern Ireland and southern Ireland border?
Marcus Jones (Conservative, Nuneaton)
Do you think that the Bill will actually put Northern Irish hauliers at an advantage over the southern Irish within the footprint of Ireland? Road fuel is usually cheaper in southern Ireland and a lot of Northern Irish haulage firms travel south of the border to fill up. By virtue of that, you would expect that it would put the Northern Irish haulage companies in quite a good place. Would that be the case?
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
May I follow up the question of merging the two duties that Mr Slater recommended? Have companies been involved in any type of negotiation or discussion in detail with the Government? Do you have a suggestion about how the two duties might be offset so that a cost-neutral conclusion can be reached?
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
In my speech on Second Reading, I anticipated that there might be some benefits and reductions for the road hauliers in the UK, but it is not going to raise that much money. However, it seems that it is going to raise an anticipated £80 million over the next four-year period, so some of that might be put back into the coffers of the road haulage industry, which I know is suffering. I represent Grangemouth. We have a large number of road hauliers, as you can imagine, who are suffering from the excise duty costs on their business. They might benefit from some levelling out of the playing field by not adding to the costs—even a small amount of costs—that they carry at the moment.
Kwasi Kwarteng (Conservative, Spelthorne)
What is your view about the money being raised by this levy? We have been told that it will not necessarily be a huge amount, but there is a suggestion that we should hypothecate this money exclusively for road maintenance. I wonder whether you have a view on that issue and what that view is.
Kwasi Kwarteng (Conservative, Spelthorne)
Do you share that view?
Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)
By comparison with the previous witnesses, you are larger operations. By comparison with some of your European counterparts, which are actually working in the British market, how much advantage does the lack of such a levy give them at the moment? Is it impacting on your business or is it detracting from your business, to the benefit of European counterpart operations?
Jackie Doyle-Price (Conservative, Thurrock)
I am interested in the competitive challenge that you continue to face, because, as you have said, this is a small step towards levelling the playing field. Following on from the point that you made about the number of foreign lorries, in your experience do they tend to be from bigger companies like yourselves operating on the continent, or do they tend to be smaller operators?
Jackie Doyle-Price (Conservative, Thurrock)
The reason why I ask the question is because I am interested in the impacts on wider road safety. Obviously these foreign vehicles will be brought into the scope of regulation for the first time. Anecdotal evidence—bear in mind that I represent a constituency where logistics and haulage are big business—suggests that there are a lot of operators out there who are not familiar with our safety practices. Do you think that there might be some advantages from bringing them into that scope?
Jim Fitzpatrick (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
You will have heard that the previous witnesses had a disagreement about the enforcement procedure and whether it should be visible disc or ANPR. Notwithstanding the Irish border questions, do you have any views on how enforcement should operate?
Martin Vickers (Conservative, Cleethorpes)
I have spoken to many hauliers in my constituency, which includes Immingham, which, as you will know, is a major centre for the industry. While they are very supportive of the Bill, they express reservations about whether the deterrents are sufficient. Do you believe that the fines are adequate and could you expand on your thoughts on that? Should a custodial sentence be imposed for severe cases?
Pamela Nash (Labour, Airdrie and Shotts)
My colleague, Mr Vickers, asked about the possibility of a custodial sentence. Do you think that would be appropriate in the more serious cases? Who would you suggest is ultimately responsible, if it was one of the employees of your large firms?
Pamela Nash (Labour, Airdrie and Shotts)
Just one follow-up question. Mr Hanley-Cook, you have told us a lot of stories and given us a lot of evidence of how people try to evade payment. Would it not be better to have a larger fine in such cases to act as a deterrent, rather than jumping from £5,000 to a custodial sentence?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
Given that many heavy goods vehicles across Europe are leased or hired and the ultimate owner may well not be the registered operator, will the panel think about who should be ultimately responsible for paying the levy and the fines for non-payment of the levy? Should it be the driver? Should it be the owner of the vehicle—whoever that might be—or the registered operator, or a combination of all three or someone else?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
So you maintain that the registered operator should be responsible for the levy and any subsequent fines?
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
We are into the meat of the problem; these problems are always in the detail. These are issues that I raised in my speech on Second Reading, when the Minister’s response was that the fine would be on the driver. We heard earlier this morning that the driver would somehow be levied for a portion—a deposit of some kind—with anticipation of the rest coming from the user. From what you are saying, that does not strike you as being viable. We heard your colleagues from smaller road haulage companies say that there should be an impounding of the vehicle. You seem to be echoing that, saying that the vehicle does not move until the money is paid.
As you have explained, the concept of running money of several thousand euros is not likely to be the case for the driver. The card system sounds pretty foolproof, because it would have to be taken from the card immediately before the vehicle moved on. You are saying it should be on the user or the operator licence of the vehicle, and it should be paid from their sources before it moves.
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
What about perishable goods that might be in the trucks? How would we handle that?
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
On the question of the payment method for the levy, I am getting the view that what seems to be anticipated is that people will pre-pay. If they turn up without having paid, they are liable for the fine. As you have said, for an owner-driver of a small company, or if there is a change to a driver who has not necessarily driven into the jurisdiction, there seems to be a serious risk of being fined for lack of knowledge, rather than an intent to defraud or deny the Revenue of the money.
For the congestion charge, you get notified if you are in a congestion charge area if you have not pre-registered and you get a chance to pay. You do not end up with a fine right away. How do we avoid that and make it fairer? We want to raise revenue and contribute towards levelling the playing field, but we do not want to be punitive. We do not want drivers finding themselves to be in breach just because they do not know the system. Do you expect that there would be a notice to pay as well as the requirement to turn up with the levy pre-paid? There seems to be a high risk of people being fined for lack of knowledge.
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
But we are not going to have a sticker system. At the moment, it is anticipated that there will not be any form of physical recognition.
Kwasi Kwarteng (Conservative, Spelthorne)
It was suggested earlier by the first panel of witnesses that this measure would only go some way in terms of redressing the balance of the cost on foreign hauliers. Do you have a view on how, in future, we could make it more fair without simply raising the levy?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
May I come back to the issue of enforcement and impounding vehicles? Clearly, we do not want any of the costs to fall on the British taxpayer. Would it be sensible to have a cost-per-day to cover the cost of impounding vehicles and a time limit for those who simply do not pay up so that the vehicle can be sold and the taxpayer reimbursed?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
Do we need to have that on the face of the Bill, or can it come in guidance or later regulation? Or does it matter?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
As the panel have already agreed that it really ought to be the registered operator who is responsible for paying the levy and any subsequent fines, will they explain to the Committee the operating system and the maintenance of good repute and financial standing on the O-licence system, which I believe operates throughout the EU, and how that is likely to mean that those operators will pay the levy and/or the fines? What about the system for vehicles entering the UK that are not from EU sources? Is anyone aware of how that system works, and whether they are likely to come under an operating licence system, say from Turkey or somewhere else?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
If I may, I will ask two questions. First, it sounds like a really good idea to actually have something on the vehicle that shows it is registered. My only worry about that is that we know how easy it is to forge just about everything nowadays. Do you think having that would potentially lead to complacency?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
My other question is around the weight limit. One of the people who has given written evidence has said that this levy should actually be charged across cars and light vehicles. Do you think that 12 tonnes is the right weight to put this at, or should it be 7.5 tonnes, or another figure?
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
On the question of fixed fines, it says there can be a fixed fine up to level 5:
“A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.”
My understanding is that that could range quite a bit. For example, if someone comes in and does not pay the levy, and has all the information, and all the questions I was asking earlier about micro-knowledge are satisfied, they can be fined. What level of fine do you think people who are, in the words of the court, “dodging” should have? They can have a fixed fine at the lower end of £30 and at the higher end, up to £200. What do you think would dissuade people from just trying to dodge the levy for a quick journey into the UK and back?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
I have been lobbied on this. Can the panel then think of any reason or problem with extending this Bill to cover foreign coaches as well, which also travel into our country?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
No problem?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Before I bring the Minister in, was there any other colleague who wanted to ask a question?
Andrew Bingham (Conservative, High Peak)
I originally thought that the disc idea was a good one, but having now heard it, I am not so sure. If we went with the disc idea then we would need discs of all different shapes and colours for all the different weights. Do you not think we could end up with a myriad of different coloured and shaped discs, making it less viable?
Andrew Bingham (Conservative, High Peak)
But you need the different weight levels of van.
Andrew Bingham (Conservative, High Peak)
Then to properly police it, the weight dictates which disc and then whoever checks it will know what weight the wagon is.
Andrew Bingham (Conservative, High Peak)
Exactly. I am beginning to take that view.
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
I have just one final point. I know that you said earlier that you did not want to give the Government advice on how they should spend their taxes, but from the information that we have, both from the previous session and in the notes, it is anticipated that the scheme will raise £80 million over the period from 2013 to 2018, and that that money will go to the Consolidated Fund. That means it will go into the Chancellor’s back pocket and he can use it for whatever scheme he wishes. All of you said earlier that you think the money should go into roads and transport, but we have heard that only a small amount might go as an extra sum to VOSA. Would you like to elaborate on how you think that should be done? The Minister is here, and I am sure that he is listening.
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
What is the benefit for you then, if that is the case? Is it just that you want to get at the foreign drivers and foreign owners? That seems to be a very negative way of looking at it: levelling the playing field is not going to give you any advantage, it is simply going to burden those foreign owners. That is a strange way to look at life.
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
Is that all this is about? I had anticipated that it might have given you some benefits, apart from the simple feeling that you are getting back at the other guy.
Stephen Hammond (Conservative, Wimbledon)
Gentlemen, thank you for coming this morning and thank you for your evidence. I anticipate that you would say that some of the benefits of the scheme are that, first of all, it means a step towards a level playing field, and secondly, that it enables you to compete a little bit more effectively, both here and on the continent. Would that be correct?
Stephen Hammond (Conservative, Wimbledon)
To clarify one of Mr Connarty’s other points, on livestock and perishable goods: as you well know, VOSA has accepted practices to deal with those areas already, which have been in place for a long time. Nothing in this legislation changes or interferes with those practices. Are you clear that the practices that VOSA already has are capable of dealing with what will arise from the provisions in the Bill?
Stephen Hammond (Conservative, Wimbledon)
You must be aware of what VOSA does in terms of its arrangements for livestock and perishable goods, if something is impounded now. Are those satisfactory?
Stephen Hammond (Conservative, Wimbledon)
I am very grateful to hear that, and trust that the same will apply in future. Finally, to move on to the point about Ireland that Mr Slater raised a couple of times: the Irish Government have written to suggest that Northern Ireland be exempt from the charge. The only issue with that is that there are already road charges in southern Ireland. The new charge, such as it will apply in Northern Ireland, is about the same as existing Irish tolls if you do a round trip from Belfast to Dublin. The Department has suggested to the Irish Government that we have a bilateral conversation and agree on some roads, which cross the border, that might be potentially exempted from the charge. Would that be satisfactory for your purposes?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
If there are no further questions from colleagues, that brings us to the end of our proceedings this morning. On behalf of the Committee, gentlemen, thank you very much indeed for coming in and giving evidence to us. You have enlightened the Committee, and we wish you a very happy Christmas.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
I apologise for the delay. We had a dilemma because four members of the Committee—including me—make up half the Backbench Business Committee, which is meeting at 3 pm, but we have sorted that out so that that Committee will also have a quorum. I apologise for the delay, but we are now being broadcast.
Welcome to our two witnesses, who are representatives of the RAC Foundation and the John Walker Consultancy. Gentlemen, I do not know whether you have ever been put in this position, but I promise you that it is not an ordeal. These are nice people who are simply trying to gather evidence for when we start considering the Bill proper on Thursday. Starting with Professor Glaister, please would you both kindly introduce yourselves and make a few remarks on your perceptions of the measure?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Thank you. Dr John Walker is here, presumably not to talk about whisky, but about quite a different measure.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Thank you very much indeed.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
Gentlemen, thank you very much for your comments, especially those about wider road-charging issues. We touched on them previously and I am sure we will come back to them in Committee.
There was a disagreement this morning about enforcement procedures—automatic number plate recognition cameras versus visible discs on windscreens, which are apparently employed in most other European countries. Would you care to comment on whether you think discs would be necessary, or indeed better than or a complement to ANPR cameras?
Professor Glaister, your last point was about the compliance cost to foreign companies. Why are you concerned about that? Is it because the cost would deter them from complying with the scheme, or is it simply because of those business costs?
Kwasi Kwarteng (Conservative, Spelthorne)
You mention free trade, but there is an imbalance between the domestic haulage companies and the foreign ones. On the basis of free trade, you want to have an equal playing field. It does not make sense to have free trade where one side has some costs and the other does not.
Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)
I am always wary when people make international comparisons. As a member of the Education Committee, I know that the Secretary of State for Education loves comparing us with Singapore. I have been there with the Education Committee, and it is a very different place. The island of Singapore is about 35 miles across, so you cannot really draw comparisons about the effectiveness of a particular scheme in such an enclosed situation, although I guess that you could compare that with congestion charging in London.
I take your point that number plate recognition has improved dramatically, and I should declare an interest, because a company in my constituency, Petards, in an expert on manufacturing such equipment and it has done a lot of design and development work on it. I think that we have to be careful when drawing international comparisons.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
I think I am correct that, under EU regulations, anti-congestion measures are compatible with the road user levy that we are looking to introduce. We already have a couple of anti-congestion measures in the UK—the M6 toll and the London congestion charge—and I presume that any other road tolls that are brought in would be compatible under EU law.
I am somewhat surprised, Professor Glaister, given that you represent the RAC, that you are not asking questions about the cost of foreign vehicles on our roads and the number of accidents that they are involved in. The cost to the UK economy is some £56 million a year, and in 20% of those accidents, the foreign haulier is not traced due to giving false details. Obviously, with the road user levy in position, it is going to be much harder for a foreign haulier to avoid giving the proper details, because they will be on record from when they had to pay the levy, and the records will match up with their number plates. I therefore would have thought you might be a little bit more enthusiastic about this.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
But surely you can appreciate that having the steering wheel on the wrong side for our islands makes foreign lorries far more likely to be involved in an accident on UK roads, just as our vehicles are probably more likely to be involved in an accident on foreign roads.
I would not say that the measure discourages foreign hauliers, but it gives a level playing field for domestic hauliers to compete. We do not want our lorries flooded out by foreign vehicles taking work away from our domestic hauliers. That is the situation we have at the moment with the unfairness of the marketplace.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
I think you can appreciate that if they have had to pay a road user levy, if there is a risk to their operator’s licence and if someone is responsible, then if a number plate is involved in an accident and they have given false details, it is going to be much harder for them to avoid being involved in an insurance claim, because the details will be on VOSA’s records.
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
To set off down the road of looking at how this levy can be policed, as you are taking it not from a haulier’s point of view but from a traffic point of view, can you throw some light on a few things that puzzled me when I thought about this over the lunch break?
If someone comes into the country and does not know—or chooses to ignore the fact—that they have to pay a levy, how quickly would that have to be traced? Presumably they could make a journey in and out of the country before anyone stops them to check whether they have paid the levy. If they do not come very often—if they are not regular 52-week hauliers—it might be quite a time since they came in without paying the levy. Someone has to store that information, but who transmits it to the police? Do the police really have the manpower to stop vehicles and say, “The last time you were in, you did not pay your levy”? It sounds easy, but I am not sure that it is as easy as we anticipate. How could such potential problems be eradicated?
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
That leads me to conclude that what you need is a substantial beefing-up of the resources at the ports. It is not a question of being stopped on the motorway, in a motorway lay-by or in a truck stop; it really is about access and entry. You are really saying that you need a substantial increase in resources at the point of entry and exit.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Our last question in this session, which lasts until 2.30 pm, is from Mr Vickers.
Martin Vickers (Conservative, Cleethorpes)
Moving on from the difficulties of enforcing, what about the penalties? May I have your observations on whether you think they represent a sufficient deterrent?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
I said it was the last question, but that was a very short exchange. If no other colleague wishes to ask a question, I thank you very much for your time, gentlemen. On behalf of the Committee, I wish you a happy Christmas.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
As colleagues know, the drinks people were not able to be with us this afternoon: Carlsberg. Gentlemen, I think you heard what I said to the previous witnesses. We do want you to enjoy the session. Would you kindly all introduce yourselves and comment on the Bill?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
And your view of the piece of legislation?
Jim Fitzpatrick (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
Thank you very much for being here this afternoon, gentlemen. It is good to see you and we welcome your comments. Can I ask about costs? We heard this morning from one of our witnesses that there would be a cost to their business. Mr Parmar, you mentioned that you had concerns about the impact of rebates. Can you say a little bit more about that and, collectively on the question of costs, about vehicle size and the impact on companies? In the FTA evidence, Mr Hookham, one of the questions you ask is, “How will holders of Reduced Pollution Certificates be compensated through replacement grants?” Could you tell us about that so that we can get a better feel for what the costs are and how you see some of the Bill’s minor negatives impacting? That is as opposed to the positives, which we welcome on both sides.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
I would like to declare an interest, in that the company of which I am a non-executive chairman is a member of the FTA, which I am sure Mr Hookham is very pleased about. Can I ask the panel who they think should be responsible for paying the levy and for any fine resulting from non-payment of the levy? Should it be the driver, the owner, the registered operator, a combination of those or all of those? I am particularly interested in Mr Parmar’s response about how his members will feel about being responsible for their clients’ misdemeanours, and how he thinks his members will handle that.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
If you will indulge me, Mr Amess, would the panel then agree that, as the Bill has to introduce a road user levy under EU competition law—it cannot put the levy on to only foreign vehicles; it has to be for all vehicles—we therefore have to have an enforcement system that will be fit for UK-registered operators, and that those criteria will not necessarily be the same?
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
The assumption that anyone sitting around this table knows as much as you gentlemen, or even a little of what you know, about laws and enforcement is probably a false hope on your part. We are not all in the situation of being members of your association; we simply represent areas with industries that have quite a lot of haulage. Grangemouth is in my constituency; it has a large amount of haulage going out, with chemicals and petrochemicals, and also dry goods transport.
I am still trying to work out how this all works. We have heard that if a vehicle has to pay a fine, the driver will be stopped and asked to make a payment of some kind or in some way initiate a payment that would come from the user, or else the vehicle will be impounded. If the vehicle was leased by someone, not owned by them, what happens if the lease runs out while it is impounded? With a fixed lease, who is liable for picking up the payment to get the vehicle released? That is a new angle for me. It might be that the vehicle is being leased by a company that has a very short-term perspective. I do not know how you solve that problem. I hope that, through negotiations and discussion, the regulations will be such that the vehicle will not be impounded for such a long time if a former user of the vehicle decides to abandon road haulage and does not want to pay.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
Bearing in mind that this will have to apply to all vehicles on UK roads—including UK operators who are operating without a VED licence—if, for whatever reason, the roadside penalty is not paid and the vehicle has to be impounded, would it be reasonable that the road user levy should continue to accrue on top of the fine until the matter is sorted out?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
It is only £10 a day. It is not a huge amount of money but it does keep the pressure on.
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
I want to go back to the point that Mr Parmar raised about one in four vehicles being rented.
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
Okay. Do you know how many of the foreign trucks are on rental rather than owned by the operator?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
Do you see any difficulty with that arrangement in terms of levying penalties against a foreign operator?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
Do you have any suggestions on whether there should be some additional provisions?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
May I just ask one more question, Mr Amess? Forgive me: I am not sure who it was, but somebody said earlier that they thought the enforcement resources were adequate and already in place. It felt like somebody else had contradicted that in something else that was said. Do you collectively believe that there are enough enforcement resources in place or do you think additional enforcement would be needed?
Jim Fitzpatrick (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
Mr Hookham mentioned the word “visibility” in his first comments and I forgot to ask him about that. When I was asking earlier about the disc versus ANPR, clearly ANPR is acknowledged by most as being adequate for the task. When you say “visibility” you don’t mean ability to be seen but the ability of authorities to identify the volumes, the numbers and so on?
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
My main question has been answered. It would appear that the focus on the point of access and entry is the key to good enforcement for vehicles coming in. So that was the main point of my first question. My second question is this. We heard quite a strong plea from one of our earlier witnesses for this to be the first part of a national scheme for road pricing. You mentioned the fact that there are cameras all over the motorways at this moment. I have to say that having spent two periods with the parliamentary police scheme and watched the goings-on on the cameras on the motorways in central Scotland, there was quite some difficulty determining the vehicle registration because it was muddy or the weather was terrible. Automatic recognition seemed to require human intervention to work out what a number plate actually said, so it may be not as easy as we assume, given our weather system. Is there a view of this as the beginning of a structure for road pricing, given that there are cameras on our motorways that could be used for foreign vehicles?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
Could the panel help me clarify something that I think the Committee is slightly misunderstanding? It is almost as though these foreign vehicles are currently unregulated when they come into the UK, and suddenly we are going to ask VOSA to implement this levy when it has never seen a foreign vehicle before. When foreign vehicles are in this country, they are currently regulated by VOSA, and they are stopped regularly at the side of the road for vehicle inspections and drivers’ hours inspections. Information from VOSA suggests that foreign-registered vehicles are far more likely to have defects on the vehicle and be in breach of drivers’ hours regulations, and therefore they would be targeted by VOSA currently to try to get these potentially dangerous vehicles off the road. Does the panel agree with me that VOSA is very much involved with foreign lorries at the moment, and this is more of an administration exercise? As I say, VOSA may well already have databases set up on some of those foreign operators.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
As I understand it, VOSA currently operates on a traffic light system. It looks at what has been wrong when it has stopped your vehicles previously and knows immediately what it should be looking at, whether it is tyres, vehicle maintenance or drivers’ hours, and it targets operators that have a poorer track record.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
So you are saying that it will not count against the foreign operator’s good repute on his operator’s licence.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
To follow up, if I may, what about operators coming into the UK from outside the EU? Is that going to be even harder to monitor?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
To follow up on enforcement, do you think that this is likely to help with foreign operators that are believed to be flouting the rules on cabotage? Is this is going to be of assistance in that regard?
Pamela Nash (Labour, Airdrie and Shotts)
Today, we are talking about levelling the playing field for hauliers here with colleagues across Europe. However, we have a capsule view here, looking at the effects in Ireland. Could you each share the experiences of your members in Northern Ireland, who are in direct competition with companies in southern Ireland? How will the levy affect such companies in practice? How can we implement a levy there? I know that you, Mr Hookham, expressed some concerns about that in your written evidence. If you could expand on that, it would be most helpful.
Pamela Nash (Labour, Airdrie and Shotts)
If we find the perfect system that has 100% compliance in Ireland, how will that affect your members and businesses in Northern Ireland?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
Could the panel give their view on the merits, or otherwise, of possibly extending the scope of the Bill to cover PSVs, such as coaches?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Were there any other questions from colleagues or are we all done? That being the case, thank you very much indeed for the evidence you have given the Committee this afternoon and on behalf of the Committee I wish the three of you a very happy Christmas.
Now we move on to our final session with the Minister and officials. I am mindful that there is due to be a vote, but I do not have the power to adjourn the Committee now. When the Division comes, we will adjourn for 15 minutes.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
May I formally welcome our Minister? I have no doubt at all that colleagues will be nice to the Minister on the basis that he is nice to colleagues’ constituents. Minister, may I leave you please to introduce your colleagues and perhaps to make some opening remarks about this piece of legislation?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Thank you very much indeed. Could you please introduce yourselves?
Jim Fitzpatrick (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
Minister, we have listened to a number of witnesses, the vast majority of whom have been constructive and supportive of the legislation, although some raised questions and sought pause for thought and additional clarification. Has that made you think that you need to tweak the Bill in different ways, or are you confident that, as it stands, it will not need to be amended at this stage before it goes to the other place?
Jim Fitzpatrick (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
Can I ask for a few words on the questions raised about the Irish border and what goes on there? Some of the witnesses were very concerned but it was not entirely clear what was going to happen.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
I thank the Minister for that. For the removal of doubt, could he explain to the Committee who he will expect to be responsible, as the result of this Bill, for the paying of the levy and any subsequent fines or costs for the non-payment of the levy?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
I think that is called belt and braces, Mr Amess.
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
I do not have any previous knowledge of HGVs, so forgive me if I am asking stupid questions. I want to explore what I think are possible unintended consequences of the Bill. I understand that, in Europe, different countries have different systems: some have tolling, some have Eurovignettes. Have you looked at the possibility of the countries that do not have levies taking retaliation, which might make things worse for our HGV drivers?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
As I understand it, a possible impact may occur if you combine the levy with the vehicle excise duty. Under that duty, if you have a more efficient, smaller and greener engine you pay less duty. Is there a possibility that this measure could work against hauliers buying cleaner engines?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
I am not entirely sure I understood much of that, Minister. What you are saying is that you have looked at this issue and you do not have a concern about it.
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
The Minister did prove that he could read—I was reading the same sentence as him when he was repeating who would be responsible for the offence. In clause 11, the
“person who uses a heavy goods vehicle on a road”
is obviously the driver, in the same way as if I am driving someone else’s vehicle and I speed, I am liable for the fine. However, if the vehicle has not had levy paid for it in the past, and is therefore liable for a fine—in other words, is not caught going out of the country, or stopped coming back into the country, but then is stopped at some other time—the driver would be liable for the fine, because the driver is the person who is liable. It is easy to see, with a UK vehicle, if it has a disc, but it is not easy to identify that a vehicle has paid the levy if it does not carry a vignette or a disc of some kind. If there is an outstanding unpaid levy, and there is therefore liability for a fine, are you really saying that the driver for journey two, who may have paid on the way in, is liable for the outstanding fine for a previous breach? That cannot possibly be just, because it is criminalising the driver, who might have paid on the second entry, when the fine is outstanding for a previous, different journey.
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
Let us just assume that it is not, Minister, because I am talking about innocent people here, not guilty ones.
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
Let me press this, because I do not think that your assumption is necessarily correct. I would not want to drag up again the case of the former Minister and his wife, and who was driving the vehicle; we discussed that at length in this House. The issue is, if the person who was driving the vehicle previously is not the same as the driver when the vehicle comes back into the UK on journey two, and the driver for journey two has paid the levy for their journey but there is an outstanding fine on the vehicle, it must surely be the owner of the vehicle—the person or persons set out in clause 4—who is liable for the fine. Any imposition on that particular driver—even if it was to hold or impound the vehicle, when that driver has been instructed to deliver the vehicle’s cargo, and was hoping to be paid for doing so—would be a terrible imposition on that individual. Nothing that I have heard so far has clarified that an innocent driver could not be fined for a previous driver’s failure to pay the levy. Therefore the owner or the registered user must surely be the person who is held responsible.
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
I am sorry, but we are going to fall out about this, because I think that that is a terrible imposition on a possibly innocent person.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
I have counted and we are quorate. The exchange was between Mr Connarty and the Minister. Mr Fitzpatrick, did you want to step into your colleague’s place?
Jim Fitzpatrick (Labour, Poplar and Limehouse)
Mr Connarty was making an interesting point. He described a vehicle that had been identified as being in deficit, having not paid a previous fine, arriving at the border again. That places the enforcement authorities in a quandary because it could be a different driver working for the same company and that person could be held responsible. Mr Connarty was questioning the fairness of that, Chairman, and the Minister was in the middle of responding to that quandary.
Marcus Jones (Conservative, Nuneaton)
In relation to enforcement, many witnesses, particularly this morning, mentioned impounding vehicles as probably the best way to secure any recourse for the UK taxpayer. How is that going to work and will that be a tool in the armoury that can be used to secure the position in trying to enforce these issues?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Did any of the officials want to come in on this question?
Stephen Doughty (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)
I was a little perturbed, and you appeared to be as well, Minister, when one of the witnesses suggested that they knew where VOSA always did its checks, and that certain areas were known to be ones to avoid. I was just wondering if you could reassure us, without revealing any state secrets, of the robustness and geographical diversity of VOSA’s operations, particularly in light of the important new levy, which will have to be enforced.
Stephen Doughty (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)
Just to follow up, if I may, you talked about the extra resources that you are planning to put into VOSA or that you are putting in already. Could you clarify your position on the suggestion that funds raised from the levy could be hypothecated specifically to VOSA, rather than going into the Consolidated Fund?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Before we move on to Mr Bridgen, you will be delighted to know, Mr Connarty, that Mr Fitzpatrick took over your question and that it was answered.
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
As long as the Minister was left thinking about my question, that was all I was trying to do.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
He was.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Yes.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
Mr Connarty’s argument earlier was very long on compassion but rather short on common sense, and I am probably going to compound his misery by asking whether VOSA will be willing to liaise with third parties regarding foreign registered vehicles coming in or moving out of the country, such as with local authorities when there may be unpaid parking fines, or when there are unresolved insurance claims against vehicle users that have not given the correct details. With this implementation of the levy and the analysis of these foreign operators, will VOSA be able to liaise with third parties to ensure that foreign lorry drivers in this country pay their dues?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
I want to go back to some of the questions about VOSA resources. One of the things that has been raised a number of times on the Transport Committee is cuts to the VOSA budget. Will the Minister talk to us about what cuts there have been, and also what extra resources are going to be put in? I have some concerns about VOSA’s ability to enforce this properly, given its resources, in terms of people and equipment.
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
How much was the cut from the budget in 2010?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
Has that sort of capacity been reduced over time?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Perhaps officials could answer that.
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
There is no question of VOSA’s commitment, or the commitment of its employees, but you talk about “small reductions” and then you then cite several million. I am trying to get a grip of how much there was and then to see how that balances, given that we are asking VOSA to do more enforcement.
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Thank you.
Marcus Jones (Conservative, Nuneaton)
We have not really had any representations today from witnesses from the smallest type of companies that may be affected by the proposals, such as owner-drivers. What consideration has been given to how the policy may affect small businesses, which may be sole traders? Also, what consideration has been given to people who are not necessarily members of organisations such as the Freight Transport Association and those who may not read the trade press? How are they going to be made aware of the changes?
Pamela Nash (Labour, Airdrie and Shotts)
Minister, in your earlier answer to the shadow Minister about the situation with the border in Ireland, you mentioned that some rural roads might be exempt from the levy. Do you not worry that that might mean that HGVs are more likely to use those roads? Are we therefore just moving traffic— moving a problem—and causing excess damage on those roads?
Pamela Nash (Labour, Airdrie and Shotts)
Just to be clear, is the only reason for making a road exempt the problem with enforcing the levy on that road?
Pamela Nash (Labour, Airdrie and Shotts)
Are the Northern Ireland Executive involved in those discussions, or are they between only the British and Irish Governments?
Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)
With reference to the earlier question from Mr Jones about the levels of consultation, while we had representatives from the Freight Transport Association and the Road Haulage Association here earlier, have you put any feelers out to the likes of the Federation of Small Businesses, for instance, to see if there are small-scale operators among its membership that might be consulted?
Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)
The point that I am getting to is: did the FSB, for instance, let you know whether it had among its membership small-scale haulage contractors? It is all very well the FSB being broadly in agreement with the proposals, but if it does not have any or many small-scale haulage contractors among its members, it is difficult to gauge the impact on or the feeling of those contractors.
Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)
I suppose the point that I am making is that it would be good to find out.
Marcus Jones (Conservative, Nuneaton)
We have talked a lot about the issues when we do not have firm border control in Northern Ireland and about the boundary of Northern and southern Ireland. Bearing in mind that this policy will be introduced in 2014, has any consideration been given to the question about independence that will be put to the people of Scotland? Will there be any discussion about this with the Scottish Executive?
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
Returning to common sense with compassion to get the Bill right, I am curious about what happens if someone has paid a levy before coming into the country, but then for some reason wishes to stay on, such as if their vehicle breaks down and is in a garage. Will they have the ability to top up online, as you can with the congestion charge in London?
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
It is important that people can do that, and it is a simple matter.
May I pursue the question of how VOSA anticipates that this should be policed? I see that there are powers to stop and so on, but that is clearly a very random matter. We heard some strong evidence that the concentration should be around the points of access and departure, and that there should be some way to try to catch all the vehicles in that environment. Is it anticipated that that will be done? I ask that because I spent two periods with the police parliamentary scheme during which I saw the difficulty of even tracing lorries carrying drugs or illegal immigrants at both continental ports and our own ports. How will this be as secure as possible so that the maximum number of vehicles is controlled and the levy is paid?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
Just to come back on Mr Mearns’ comment about the FSB, I put it to the Committee that there will be many members of the FSB who will be hauliers but who do not class themselves as hauliers. They are companies who have vehicles to move their own goods and do not work for hire and reward. Many of them do not class themselves as hauliers, but operate goods vehicles. My question to the Minister is: is there a system for a situation where a foreign-registered vehicle enters the country but never leaves, whether due to catastrophic breakdown, scrapping or, indeed, an accident? Have you thought about how that will be organised, because that will happen.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
Would it not be useful if there was an obligation on the operator to inform you that the vehicle will not be leaving because it has been scrapped?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
I would not want VOSA running around looking for vehicles are in the scrap yard, or wherever.
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
Can I clarify what is going to happen? Are vehicles going to be physically checked in and out? At that point, is there any ability to stop a vehicle leaving if it has outstanding fines or payments?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
The thing that I think we are all struggling with a little is that once you are on the road network, taking A roads and roads where VOSA are not sitting at the roadside, it is a bit hit and miss as to whether you will get stopped. So a vehicle can leave the port without being stopped, but will a vehicle be able to leave the country without being stopped?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
Then if a vehicle has come in and gone out and not paid any fines, is there an ability to stop it at the port before it goes off to do its next round of deliveries?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
No, it has been in and out. It has gone home, and now it has come back in again, and it has not paid—
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
What you are saying is that there is still a bit of hit and miss as to whether it is stopped, because you are not checking at the port?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
One of the other questions that one of the witnesses asked this morning was on whether there would be an option for vehicles to pay when they arrive in the country. Will there be the ability to do that?
Jackie Doyle-Price (Conservative, Thurrock)
As the Minister well knows, I have a close interest in port affairs and specifically security. It is impressive to see the ANPR systems around our ports in operation and the speed at which they can process information and highlight those vehicles that might be in breach. That brings me to the thrust of my question. What more can be achieved by VOSA having more resource at ports? It strikes me that VOSA is already responsible for enforcing against foreign vehicles that are not roadworthy. Do you anticipate that you will be able to get more bang for your buck in terms of having more resource at ports to enforce across the whole regulatory spectrum affecting lorries?
Jackie Doyle-Price (Conservative, Thurrock)
Right. Presumably you anticipate more activity on the way out than on entry.
Jackie Doyle-Price (Conservative, Thurrock)
In terms of working with other agencies, have you had any discussions with port police services in this regard, because they run these systems?
Jackie Doyle-Price (Conservative, Thurrock)
The Minister knows I never miss an opportunity to plug the excellent work our port police do.
Ian Mearns (Labour, Gateshead)
I am wondering about the issue of picking up an individual vehicle, but also thinking about that in terms of who the operator is and how many vehicles it may have. If I were that way inclined and had a dozen vehicles that were making only occasional visits to this country from Belgium or somewhere, I would rotate the vehicles in order to cut down on the number of times that an individual vehicle was snapped and captured, as it were. What would you do in that instance to try to pin down the fees that are not being paid by a particular operator?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
Does VOSA intend to liaise with ferry operators and tunnel operators to get advance notice of registration numbers of foreign vehicles coming into the country? I am particularly thinking about those rogue operators who are not going to pay the levy. They have been in the country and they are not going to pay the levy this time. They are just coming in on the ferry again. It would be rather nice if you were to know in advance that they were coming again so that you could have a welcome party for them. Is it VOSA’s belief—as I suppose it is probably mine—that those foreign operators who would not pay the levy are also highly likely to be in breach of the condition of their vehicle and driver hours, and it will be especially interested in having a word with them?
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
Just to remain on the enforcement question, do we intend that fines will always be paid in this country? We had some debate on Second Reading about whether we would require the assistance of law enforcement agencies in other parts of the EU to ensure that fines were paid if they were not paid here. If someone who has an outstanding fine is stopped here, the vehicle will be impounded until they pay the fine. However, someone might run up quite a few fines on a few different lorries and simply not pay them, and those particular lorries might not come back into the country. How does VOSA pursue someone who may owe £25,000 or £30,000 if they are not in the UK?
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
But what happens if they leave the country? You are assuming that you catch everyone going out who has not paid the levy. If they have left and you realise that the vehicle was in country without having paid the levy, you would seek to make the operator pay the fine if the vehicle came back in. If they sent different lorries in at different times, they could accumulate quite a large debt to VOSA across a number of vehicles. You could not really stop the next vehicle belonging to that owner coming in, and say, “You must pay the fine or we will not let this lorry in.”
Michael Connarty (Labour, Linlithgow and East Falkirk)
I accept that it is unlikely, but it is possible. I can think of a scenario where people next to me were stealing charity bags full of clothes, and they were later found in a warehouse in London with £1 million of clothing. It is amazing what criminals will get up to in order to break the law and make money, so we cannot think that people will not think of making money out of running lorries containing all sorts of merchandise into the country.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
Following on from Mr Connarty’s doomsday scenario, is the Minister saying that if a vehicle operated by a foreign haulier has come into the UK, not paid a levy and left, the next time the same operator sends a vehicle in, even if it has paid the levy on that vehicle, we cannot impound it and back-charge the fine on the previous vehicle?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
Why not?
Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)
Under Standing Order No. 83C (11), I have the discretion to allow the questioning of the last group of witnesses at an afternoon sitting to continue for a further 15 minutes, so we can continue until 4.45 pm. We do not have to use up the remaining 15 minutes, however, particularly as there is likely to be another vote.
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
May I ask some questions about process?
One of the previous witnesses said that they wanted a rolling start, in terms of when they renew their excise duty. Is that going to be the case, or will the scheme start on a set date, and if so, can you confirm absolutely what that set date will be?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
It will start for everybody at that point?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
On the nature and the cost of the contracts—
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
It will be a rolling programme?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
Thank you. Can you tell us a little more about the nature and the cost of the contract to be awarded to a third party contractor to maintain the electronic database?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
How much money is expected to be drawn down, then, in the first three years of the scheme—the first year and then subsequently?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
Yes.