Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
Public Bill Committee, 19 June 2012.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Before we begin, I have a few preliminary announcements. First, Members may remove their jackets during sittings if they wish. Please will all Members ensure that mobile phones, pagers and such like are turned off or switched to silent mode during sittings? I should also tell Members that as a general rule, I and my fellow Chair do not intend to call starred amendments, which have not been tabled with adequate notice. The required notice period in Public Bill Committees is three working days, so amendments should be tabled by the rise of the House on Monday for consideration on Thursday, and by the rise of the House on Thursday for consideration on Tuesday.
Not everyone is familiar with the process of taking oral evidence in Public Bill Committees, so it may help if I briefly explain how we will proceed. The Committee will first be asked to consider the programme motion on the amendment paper, for which debate is limited to half an hour. We will then proceed to a motion to report written evidence, and then to a motion to permit the Committee to deliberate in private before the oral evidence sessions—I hope we can take those motions formally. Assuming that the second motion is agreed to, the Committee will move into private session. Once it has deliberated, witnesses and members of the public will be invited back into the room and our oral evidence session will begin. If the Committee agrees the programme motion, it will hear oral evidence this morning.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
On behalf of Her Majesty’s Opposition, I welcome every hon. Member to the Committee. I particularly welcome you, Mr Brady. I am sure that you will keep us all in order.
We had a good debate on Second Reading, in which we started to expose the weaknesses in the Bill and the poverty of ideas on facilitating economic growth and enterprise. Many hon. Members described it as a rag-tag of a Bill, and I agree. It will be difficult to scrutinise its different aspects properly in the time that we have, especially if the Government table amendments that substantially extend or alter its scope. In the Programming Sub-Committee meeting, I told the Minister that we would not be happy if he introduced amendments that would substantially alter the Bill’s scope and we did not have time to debate them. He kindly said that we could extend the sittings into the evening and, if possible, through the night. Hon. Members will be delighted to hear that, and we will certainly hold him to it. On that basis, and bearing in mind my reservations, the Opposition are happy to support the programme motion.
Norman Lamb (Liberal Democrat, North Norfolk)
I thank the Opposition spokesman for his generous comments on the Bill—starting as he means to go on. I think I do not need to respond other than to confirm that if extra time is needed, we will be happy to sit for longer in the sittings that have been set.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Copies of memorandums the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee room.
Examination of Witnesses
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Good morning. I thank the witnesses for coming along to help us this morning. I first ask all the witnesses to identify themselves for the record.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
This evidence session needs to conclude by 11.15, so that is the only constraint on the questions that are being asked, other than staying within the terms of the Bill. I ask the shadow Minister to start.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Good morning. This question is for all three witnesses. In the CBI submission, it says: “The Enterprise & Regulatory Reform Bill needs to support UK growth. All measures in the Bill should be judged against whether they boost business confidence, free up businesses from unnecessary regulation and avoid creating new barriers to growth.” Does it do that? Do the measures in the Bill help provide that?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Miss Hall, you mentioned sunset clauses. Can you give me an example of where sunset clauses can be a positive thing when it comes to regulation? Where have they worked in the past?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Finally, a question to all three of you on the clauses that concern the Green investment bank. Do the measures go far enough to enact real change and provide real transformation to allow us to be a leading competitor in the global economy when it comes to green and clean technologies?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Does the Bill go far enough? Should the bank be allowed to borrow, for example?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
That takes us on to other questions about the Green investment bank. A couple of colleagues have signalled their interest.
David Mowat (Conservative, Warrington South)
The fact that the Government are setting up the Green investment bank implies that there is some kind of market failure, and that the private sector cannot do that. Why do you think that has happened?
David Mowat (Conservative, Warrington South)
You use the word renewables, but it is about low carbon. As I understand it, that means that the bank’s brief would include, for example, other types of low-carbon technology and potentially nuclear and the supply chain around that.
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
Do you think the Government’s strategy would be more effective in making markets in green products if they used their procurement power to focus in on encouraging the creation of and buying, for example, solar tiles for council houses, rather than having a bank that gives to companies to provide productive capacity? In other words, you supply to the demand rather than the supply side.
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
Does not that mean that there is a great big hole in the Bill? If the raison d’être is about growth, why is there not something about procurement? In Wales, for instance, something like 70% of procurement is done through small and medium-sized enterprises, half of which are based in Wales. In England the figure is about 6%. If that were refocused on SMEs, particularly on green growth, it would do something for growth, but these measures are just messing around at the edges, are they not?
Neil Carmichael (Conservative, Stroud)
To what extent do you think the Green investment bank should be equipped with expertise in terms of the kind of advice it can give to businesses that seek support? Do you think it will be appropriately equipped in that regard?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We move on to competition law.
Anne Marie Morris (Conservative, Newton Abbot)
Do you think that the proposed consolidation of the Office of Fair Trading and the Competition Commission will achieve the objective of ensuring that overall our systems are more efficient and quicker? Those are the main criticisms that the external bodies have of our current arrangements.
Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)
The UK has one of the best competition regimes in the world, according to independent assessments. The merger was not in any of the coalition parties’ manifestos. Do you think that the benefits of the merger outweigh the risks, and will it deliver growth?
Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)
Katja, in your submission you say that the Competition and Markets Authority’s being able to consider the public interest is a “retrograde step” in comparison with leaving the public interest test as the responsibility of the Secretary of State. Could you explain why?
Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)
Also in your submission you argue that “only the worst forms of cartel” should be criminalised. Could you explain what you mean by the worst forms of cartel?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We move on to the employment aspects of the Bill.
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
There has been a lot of hysteria about the Government’s proposals to make amendments to employment law, but you have all defended them. The Government are essentially trying to create the environment for the businesses that you represent to take on more people. Can you talk about the opportunity that there is, if we move ahead with this Bill, for your members to take on more staff with the modest liberalisation of employment law that is described in the clauses?
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
Just to be clear, the businesses that you represent have largely got human resources departments and are larger, so some of the issues that you have for your members may be quite distinct from those of smaller and medium-sized businesses. Would that be correct?
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
Alexander, could you and the other witnesses talk a bit about the benefits or any concerns that you have about the amendments that the Government are likely to put forward on settlement agreements?
Ian Murray (Labour, Edinburgh South)
The Beecroft proposals, which you will be very familiar with, suggested that compensated no-fault dismissal was a potential way forward. I am pleased to see that it has been rejected by many major organisations. Indeed, a poll today shows that many employers are rejecting that approach, too. It seems that the settlement agreements in the Bill that were trailed on Second Reading by the Secretary of State and the Minister can be put in place before any formal dispute arises. Is that not compensated no-fault dismissal by the back door?
Ian Murray (Labour, Edinburgh South)
But is there not an issue in that an employer can offer a settlement and suggest that it might have to be withdrawn or reduced as the time scales pass, and so can potentially bribe an employee to leave the company?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We have about 13 minutes, and there are a lot of questions.
Ian Murray (Labour, Edinburgh South)
I have a very quick question: we welcome the early conciliation process, but is ACAS properly funded to carry it out effectively?
Lorely Burt (Liberal Democrat, Solihull)
Ian has asked the main question about how ACAS is going to cope. I hope that we will tease out from the Minister whether there might be additional funding, because the tribunal system is so clogged up that it is unable effectively to serve people. I do not think that is the fault of ACAS. Katja Hall, when you said that you would like to take this further, did you mean the compromise agreements that Tim Thomas was talking about or would you like to see something else?
Chris Ruane (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)
I think there were 19 pieces of legislation in the Queen’s Speech. This is the great hope for the economy. We have just entered a double-dip recession. Within this Bill there are six parts, and one of those six parts makes it easier and speedier—streamlines the ability—to sack workers. Is that your priority? Of all the things that could have been included in this Bill, or indeed other Bills, is the ability to sack workers the No. 1 priority? Is it within your members’ top six priorities? Is that what is slowing down growth in the British economy?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Maybe a quick answer from each of you.
Chris Ruane (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)
Is it the top priority?
Chris Ruane (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)
In the top six?
Chris Ruane (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)
Can I ask Mr Ehmann if he could supply the statistics for that?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
What information have the panel seen about the growth in the number of tribunals over the past 10 years, the percentage of those claims that are successful or upheld at tribunal, and the size of the claims? Are the panel aware of the view of a lot of businesses that do not want to go to a tribunal because they feel that even when you win you lose, given the huge costs of time and money to the employer?
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
The key problem for business at the moment, in my evaluation, is low consumer demand for products. In that context, businesses are looking to reduce overheads. Do you feel this change will create a cultural shift whereby businesses feel that they can more easily move towards reducing their headcount in a way that they could not before? Will they say, “We have got to get rid of some costs so we will get rid of Anne and Andrew”—or whoever it happens to be—“even though they are not really doing anything particularly wrong.” Is this, therefore, a retrograde cultural change that will breed fear rather than hope in the workplace?
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
Would it make it easier, if an employer wants to reduce cost, which is quite understandable if demand has been deflated, to reduce headcount in a less damaging way to the business?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
May we have quick responses, please? We are running up against time.
Eric Ollerenshaw (Conservative, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
This follows on from that point. I think, Mr Ehmann, twice you said that you had evidence that 25% of your members would be prepared to take on more workers as a result of the Bill. I wonder if the CBI and the EEF had any similar quantification of the impact.
Simon Danczuk (Labour, Rochdale)
How often should shareholders get to vote on directors’ remuneration?
Simon Danczuk (Labour, Rochdale)
Annually?
Simon Danczuk (Labour, Rochdale)
So three years.
Simon Danczuk (Labour, Rochdale)
Do you agree or disagree?
Anne Marie Morris (Conservative, Newton Abbot)
Regarding the directors’ remuneration, how many companies do you think will actually take the opportunity of changing their articles so that there could be a binding vote? How would we ensure that shareholders are sufficiently educated to make a sensible rather than a knee-jerk reaction when they vote?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Do you think that FTSE executives are paid too much? Is there a disconnect between pay and performance and, if so, what should the measures in the Bill be doing to address that?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
In just seconds for each of you.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions of these witnesses. I thank them on behalf of the Committee. We will now hear oral evidence from British Chambers of Commerce and the Federation of Small Businesses.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We have just half an hour for this session. Will the two witnesses identify themselves for the record? It may be helpful to the Committee if you indicate whether there are particular aspects of the Bill on which you would prefer not to answer questions because they are outside your specialty.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Good morning, gentleman. The purpose of the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill is to support growth in the British economy. Does it do enough to support growth? What other measures should be in the Bill to allow that to happen?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Like what? Can you summarise for the Committee what they are?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Thank you, Mr Cherry. You mentioned the Green investment bank. What additional measures should be put in place to allow the bank to effect real transformational change to help the competitiveness of our economy? In particular, should clause 2 of the Bill explicitly mention small and medium-sized enterprises to allow the Green investment bank to support UK SMEs in terms of the transformation to a low-carbon economy?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
I am sorry to interrupt. Do you think that on that basis the bank should be allowed to borrow as quickly as possible, to lever in private sector money?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
On that point, do you think that at the moment it is the opposite end of the spectrum? Are the objects of the bank in clause 2 so big that they can invest in anything—even in a new coal-fired powered station?
David Mowat (Conservative, Warrington South)
Mr Cherry, you mentioned that you would like specific reference to SMEs in the Bill. Would you set a size limit on turnover in the drafting? How would you do that?
David Mowat (Conservative, Warrington South)
Just so that I understand, when you said that you would like to see reference in the Bill itself, that was an operational matter rather than a legislative one.
David Mowat (Conservative, Warrington South)
Okay. Do SMEs have a particular problem with getting access to finance? I know that everyone has an issue with finance at the moment, but I mean getting access to green finance. Is there a specific problem that we are trying to solve?
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
Do you agree that, alongside the Green investment bank, there should be a strategy for focusing procurement into green products, in particular to SMEs? I think I am right in saying that 70% of procurement in Wales is through SMEs, but it is something like 7% in England. Dr Marshall said something about a business bank and the big problem being that some businesses have a trajectory of forward orders, but do not have collateral and cannot borrow from banks. They try to expand and then go bust. In the green sphere, however, is there a case for the Government’s taking a joined-up approach between procurement on the one hand and productive capacity on the other, focused on SMEs? Otherwise, we might end up with a load of German companies coming in and doing green projects, with people saying, “We’ve done what we can”, and there are no British jobs.
Anne Marie Morris (Conservative, Newton Abbot)
Back to SMEs and their access to the Green investment bank. Would it be helpful if there was a requirement on the bank to report annually on the number or amount of funds that have been made available at the different levels of small business, using the EU’s definition of micro, small and medium? SMEs in the round make up more than 90% of businesses in this country by number, so that would enable us to measure whether the Government have been successful in supporting all the different levels of small business.
Chris Ruane (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)
If public procurement has improved in the devolved Administration areas—I am thinking specifically of Wales, if Geraint’s statistics are correct—do you think that the national Government have recognised what is going on in other areas of the UK? The Prime Minister likes to point out the negatives, especially in Labour-controlled Administrations, but if there are positives there, is there something that we could learn from those devolved Administrations that should be in this Bill?
Neil Carmichael (Conservative, Stroud)
Dr Marshall, you mentioned the importance of recognising enhanced risk for Green investment bank investment. Presumably you would agree with me that it is important to have the right kind of expertise in that bank to calibrate that risk. From what you have read and seen so far, do you think that that will be the case?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We need to move on to the competition aspects.
Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)
The competition parts of the Bill introduce numerous checks and balances with regard to the reviewing and appeals process, and that must have a disproportionately heavy effect on under-resourced smaller businesses. At the same time, the Government chose not to give small business representatives such as yourself a super-complainant status, which would have enabled them better to represent their members’ interests, with less demand on their own resources and time. Do you believe that the Bill does all it can to help small businesses, which often have to take on powerful vested interests with anti-competitive practices to be able to compete fairly and leave consumers better off?
Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)
Whereas consumer representative bodies do have super-complainant status. If you feel that small businesses are similar, that would suggest that a similar level of protection is required.
Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)
I understand, I was just clarifying.
Chi Onwurah (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne Central)
Just a quick follow-up, because we have spoken a lot about the difficulties of finance for businesses of all sizes—smaller businesses in particular. Are you surprised or disappointed that the competition parts of the Bill make no mention of the finance and banking market in which 85% of SME bank accounts are with the same four banks?
Anne Marie Morris (Conservative, Newton Abbot)
Merger for small businesses is traumatic at the best of times. Do you think that there should be a limit below which some of the current rules and regulations about referrals should not apply? I know that it has been discussed and considered at the moment to be in the “too hard” basket, even if it is not fair, but what would be your view? Do you have an alternative suggestion about how we could make mergers of the very smallest businesses easier?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Let us move on to the employment aspects of the Bill.
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
Many of your businesses have had a tough time recently. First, some of the people running the businesses that you represent will have been struggling to reach average earnings, or even the level of the benefit cap, in their personal income levels. First, will you describe how the employment law burden is affecting those people? How will some of the Government’s modest changes, which are designed to encourage your members to take on more staff, help? Any statistics you have on that will be helpful.
Secondly, on financial penalties, do you think that there should be exemptions for smaller businesses in the Bill’s proposals? Thirdly, should there be variated levels of compensation for unfair dismissal? How would such changes give your members even more confidence to take on more employees?
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
The biggest focus for small businesses is generating more demand through procurement, infrastructure, investment, easier access to finance and so on. However, in a situation of deflated demand and zero growth, many small businesses will be looking to downsize, so will the changes in employment legislation make it easier for them to reduce their head count?
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
You don’t think it will create a culture of fear, with the power pushed towards the employer being able to reduce the number of employees?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We have five minutes left, and five hon. Members wanting to ask questions. Do you have something to add quickly?
Lorely Burt (Liberal Democrat, Solihull)
We understand that tribunals, or the threat of a tribunal, can have a greater disproportionate effect on a small business than on a larger business because of resources. However, the idea that if you break the law there should be a financial penalty of up to £5,000 does not seem huge to me. Employers have a responsibility to act within the law. On the other side, do you think that the measures go far enough specifically for SMEs, or are there additional things that we should put into the Bill, particularly for SMEs?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Very brief answers, please.
Lorely Burt (Liberal Democrat, Solihull)
It is only up to £5,000.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Lorely, we are very tight for time.
Ian Murray (Labour, Edinburgh South)
I am mainly addressing Mike because of the time constraints. You said in your response to the Bill that you have some concerns about the compulsory ACAS early conciliation, and that you would want to be reassured on those key concerns. Can you unpack what those key concerns are, and what changes you are looking for?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Final question, Andrew Bingham.
Andrew Bingham (Conservative, High Peak)
Would you agree that, for micro-businesses that have to run very lean, firing and getting rid of staff willy-nilly is a foolish premise because they invest so much time in employees when they take them on and train them up? Saying that the Bill is there to enable people to get rid of staff is wrong; quite the opposite is true. Getting rid of people is the last resort, because they have invested so much in them.
A supplementary to that is: have you any idea of the figures—
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
You must be very quick.
Andrew Bingham (Conservative, High Peak)
Sorry. I will be quick. Have you any idea of figures, and how the reduction in employment legislation might increase the number of jobs created?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Order. I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the time allotted to the Committee to ask questions of these witnesses. I thank them on behalf of the Committee. We will now hear evidence from the Trades Union Congress, Unite and the GMB. Thank you very much.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Welcome. Can I just ask the witnesses to identify themselves for the record and to say if there are any aspects of the Bill on which they do not feel qualified to comment?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
May I just bring to the Committee’s attention that I am a member of the GMB union?
This is an enterprise Bill, designed to promote economic growth. In your view, do the provisions in the Bill help provide economic growth for this country?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Can I mention something specific, which is clause 51, dealing with the Equality and Human Rights Commission? That comes as a bit of a surprise. I am surprised that it is in an enterprise Bill. What are your views regarding clause 51?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Would it help enterprise? Does clause 51 in an enterprise Bill help enterprise?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
My final line of questioning is about employment legislation. I shall mention some specifics. Clause 12 allows the Secretary of State to vary limits for compensation awards in unfair dismissal cases, and clause 14 concerns whistleblowing. Neither of those clauses had consultation before being included in the Bill. I have two lines of questioning. First, what do you think of the specifics of clauses 12 and 14? There is also a more general policy-making point. There is concern that there was no consultation on quite important employment rights. What are your views on that?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Can I just clarify? There was no consultation with the TUC on an important piece of employment legislation.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We have up to an hour, which I hope will allow for more questions and answers rather than longer ones. I propose that we first take the two short sections on the Green investment bank and the competition aspects. I suspect there might be more focus on the employment aspects later.
David Mowat (Conservative, Warrington South)
Sarah, you mentioned that you had some reservations about the Bill. What are they?
David Mowat (Conservative, Warrington South)
Thank you for that. You are right that people say that we need £200 billion for infrastructure projects. I do not think that many people think all of that will come from the Green investment bank. There are other sources.
Mr Kenny, you mentioned that your members are concerned about energy prices. Do you see the Green investment bank helping with that?
David Mowat (Conservative, Warrington South)
Just to be clear, are you saying that the problem is with the variability of energy prices or with the level of energy prices?
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
Do you feel that the money available to the Green investment bank should be focused on SMEs, local employment, and growth and not just generally focused on green issues, which could encourage international companies more? Should that be alongside a broader strategy for sustainable development that included positive procurement, again, for local jobs and a focus on green technology alongside an infrastructure plan? Is the Green investment bank something that is on its own and not really joined up and may not maximise the opportunities for growth in local economies?
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
I should declare that I am a member of the GMB, before I forget.
Neil Carmichael (Conservative, Stroud)
I am not a member of the GMB. The Green investment bank is obviously geared towards encouraging investment in new technologies, new sectors and so forth. One would suppose that that would require a relatively flexible labour market so that we could see fluidity in terms of jobs and employment. Do you think that this legislation provides that?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
I am confident that we will get back to those issues. Does anyone have a final question on the Green investment bank? No, so perhaps we will move on to the competition aspects? If there are no questions on that, we are now on the employment aspects.
Chris Ruane (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)
Earlier, we heard from the Institute of Directors that the third biggest issue facing the British economy today is employment regulation. I was quite surprised about that, and I asked for the statistical back-up, which Mr Ehmann is going to provide. However, the BIS small business survey shows that the level of concern of businesses about regulation overall is 6%, so concern about employment regulation is within that 6%. BIS says that it is not all that important; the Institute of Directors says that it is the third most important thing to their members. Where would you factor it in? Where would you rank it in order of priority for the British economy and growth? What is the threat to the British economy from employment regulation?
Chris Ruane (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)
Sorry; may I just say that it was the Institute of Directors? The FSB is onside.
Chris Ruane (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)
Could you supply the Committee with any information that you think we should have?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
Following on from that, I have two questions, and I will accept a yes or no answer. Does the panel believe that the huge increase in employment legislation over the years is acting as a disincentive to employers to take on extra staff and therefore lowering economic growth, and that this legislation has a disproportionate effect on small and micro-businesses?
Ian Murray (Labour, Edinburgh South)
We have had a lot of evidence before the Committee commenced, but also during the previous two sessions, about ACAS being under-resourced for the early conciliation. Indeed, given ACAS’s own figures, it may cost it somewhere in the region of £10 million to deal with the increase in cases to 44,000. I think everyone is fairly comfortable that the early conciliation process is a step forward, if it is done properly. Is there a danger that it could be undermined?
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
Congratulations on Ellesmere Port. I think that all of you do important work, in different ways, on employment relations. There is a concern, however, that on the comments that you are making on very small businesses—on micro-businesses—that just by the very nature of your organisations you do not have experience of speaking to employers or employees within those bodies. Could you just describe for us this afternoon your level of contact with small companies—I define those as having from two or three to 100 people—or what meetings you are having, either with employees or employers?
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
May I press you, Howard? What is the percentage of your membership who are working at a company of fewer than 50 people?
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
Could you provide us with that?
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
Can I ask a second question supplementary to that? You have all talked passionately about the need for informal mediation and workplace discussion in resolving disputes. Do you think that it is right that ACAS needs to seek the permission of an employee in order for ACAS, during mediation, to contact the employer? If you think that that is right, could you say why?
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
As I understand the current situation, in mediation you have to seek the permission of the employee.
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
Why do you think ACAS has made representations informally that this would be a good idea?
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
I have two quick questions on different issues. First, people will know that the construction industry is now very much on its knees, and therefore I wonder whether you agree with me that introducing constraints on whistleblowing at a time when there is not much work about and people are cutting costs is more likely to lead to industrial injury, and therefore the dilution of whistleblowing could have disastrous consequences. Secondly, on the issue of equality and human rights that was referenced a while ago, people will also know that in the public sector some 60% of employees are women, and indeed a fairer proportion of people are from ethnic communities, so reductions in the headcount there—700,000 is the latest objective of the Government—have consequences. If those people are looking at other employment issues such as maternity rights and so on, do you think, in the round, that reducing the influence of equality and human rights in terms of employment is a retrograde step?
Lorely Burt (Liberal Democrat, Solihull)
I totally accept the points that Sarah Veale has made about how a good employer with a good, positive culture will result in fewer industrial tribunal claims. Although I also take your point about employers surveying themselves, I speak to a lot of businesses—particularly small businesses—which are fearful of vexatious claims. There is definitely a sense that we need to take much more effective action on this. Do you think that a requirement to consult before going to tribunal is a good thing both for employers, to encourage them to be less fearful about taking on new employees, and for employees?
Eric Ollerenshaw (Conservative, Lancaster and Fleetwood)
I want to ask a question along that line. In the spirit of conciliation, I presume that you will agree that solving the problems in the workplace is the solution. But what I am trying to find out is whether you accept that, as the FSB says, 400,000 tribunal cases a year is a massive cost on business in terms of money and time. Mr Kenny talked about consultants. Is it just down to consultants that we have got to that state of affairs, or where is the problem?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We have five minutes. I will call two colleagues who have not yet had an opportunity to ask questions to this panel. I also have a list of colleagues who would like another bite of the cherry, but I doubt that we will have time for that.
Graham Evans (Conservative, Weaver Vale)
We all agree that Britain has to pay its way in the world. We face highly competitive, dog-eat-dog competition throughout the world, and we need a highly skilled, flexible work force. What would you say to a young entrepreneur who starts up a small business with the prospect of good business growth and whose focus means that he has put his house on the line and taken risks? What would you say to him about growing his business? How would you convince him to take organisations such as yours on board? In other words, why would anybody take a third-party organisation such as yours into their growing business? Can you justify your role with growing businesses and jobs in the 21st century?
Ian Murray (Labour, Edinburgh South)
I have two questions and will make them quick, because time is running out. First, I was interested to read Mr Beckett’s views of the Bill. You have expressed the opinion that the new settlement agreements and what the Secretary of State announced on Second Reading, as well as the Secretary of State’s ability to make an arbitrary decision to restrict compensation in an unfair dismissal to whichever level he wishes between median earnings and three times earnings, are fundamentally related to compensating no-fault dismissal, particularly by the back door. Could you give us some examples of that? If you cannot do so in the time remaining, will you write to the Committee to give us an idea of your thought process?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the time allotted for the Committee to ask questions to the witnesses, whom I thank on behalf of the Committee. There have been some requests for written submissions, for which we would be grateful.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We will now hear oral evidence from the Association of British Insurers, Hermes Equity Ownership Services Ltd and the National Association of Pension Funds. For the record, please introduce yourselves to the Committee.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
It might be helpful to the Committee if you say whether there are any aspects of the Bill on which you do not feel qualified to comment, or if you are happy to be drawn on all aspects.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Excellent. Members may wish to direct questions to specific witnesses; otherwise direct them among yourselves as appropriate.
Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that the question should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick strictly to the timings in the programme order the Committee agreed. I hope that I do not have to interrupt mid-sentence but will do so if need be.
First, on the Green investment bank, I call David Mowat.
David Mowat (Conservative, Warrington South)
Mr Lee, I have just been looking through your written evidence and a sentence in it caught my eye:
“A number of pension funds have made clear that they will not be able to buy green bonds unless they have yields which compensate them for the lower liquidity or credit risk”.
For clarity, what do you mean by that?
David Mowat (Conservative, Warrington South)
Is the issue liquidity risk, or is it that the projects might be regarded as higher risk in themselves?
David Mowat (Conservative, Warrington South)
In your evidence, you say that there is pent-up demand for people to invest in such green activities. If that is the case, why do we need the Green investment bank for it to happen? What is causing the market failure that the Green investment bank is addressing?
David Mowat (Conservative, Warrington South)
If I could just press you, why has that not happened, if pent-up demand is there? Why has someone else not put into place the products that would meet that demand?
David Mowat (Conservative, Warrington South)
What are the demands in terms of quality?
David Mowat (Conservative, Warrington South)
We can probably spend all afternoon on Solvency II.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Good afternoon, gentlemen. Does the Bill as it stands with regard to the Green investment bank give you the investment and your members the confidence to invest in a low-carbon economy? If not, what else needs to be included in the Bill?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Could you give us some examples? What would give the market confidence, and what does the role of the Green investment bank in that respect look like? Does the Green investment bank take on the risk on behalf of the market? Does it leverage in additional private sector money? What would a good investment look like?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Is the question of the bank being allowed to borrow an issue for you? Would it provide additional confidence if the bank was allowed to borrow before 2016?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
May I ask all three gentlemen a final question about the Green investment bank? Are there any improvements or recommendations that you can make to the Committee about the governance, or proposed governance, of the Green investment bank to make sure that it is the best in class, given that it is, I understand, the first public bank since about 1848?
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
The Green investment bank will also have to act as the quality controller and risk assessor—as a gateway to leveraging private sector money on the supply side. I was wondering how important you thought, on the demand side, a programme of public sector procurement focused in on the green economy would be to support further private sector investment? The public sector would be pulling through and creating a market, which would lower private sector risk. How important would that be to maximise the amount of private sector investment supporting green investment?
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
By way of example, imagine that I could design a simple roof tile that doubled as a solar panel, which would cover every school in Britain and generate economies of scale, and which could be scaled up to exportable volumes. If we needed public sector procurement to do that, would it provide a big platform for future profit purposes? Do you not envisage any such opportunity in either consumer or infrastructure markets at all?
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
Do you have any comments, Mr Thoresen?
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
But in key strategic things such as the Severn barrage, which had £30 billion of private equity, you do not necessarily need public sector money at all. Is that the view?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Mr Thoresen, I am interested in your views about how the new Competition and Markets Authority established by the Bill will link in with the Financial Conduct Authority, which was set up by the Financial Services Act 2010. Can you explain your concerns and the risks involved in changing the competitive landscape at the same time in both areas?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Is the industry concerned about that? It seems to me that changing one regulatory regime is complex enough, and changing two is hazardous, but changing two that interact at the same time means that the wings are really going to fall off in a vital area such as the financial services industry. Are you concerned about that?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Are you getting clarity from Government, or—with respect to Ministers here—do you get conflicting pieces of advice and opinion from, say, the Treasury and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Do you think that there is a problem with executive pay?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Does the Bill go as far as it could in terms of the legislative framework for directors’ remuneration?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Mr Paterson, may I push you on this? Previously, my understanding was that the NAPF was not in favour of binding votes on pay. Have you changed your position now?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
What is your view of the remuneration committee? I read your really interesting discussion paper on this, and your recommendation was that you did not need a binding vote but could vote against the chairman or members of the remuneration committee. Do you still stand by that? Could you give me examples where that has worked successfully and pay has been restrained as a result?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
In general, do big institutional shareholders like pension funds and insurance managers need to be doing a lot more when it comes to directors’ remuneration?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
But shareholders own the business. That is the key point, isn’t it? They need to have more power to allow them to direct the strategy for their business.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Following on from that—this is my final question, Mr Brady—are we looking at this in the wrong way, and focusing solely on directors’ remuneration when this is a good opportunity to think about how we could improve corporate governance and make the UK’s corporate governance framework still the best in class for the 21st century? Mr Lee, you have written eloquently about the management of risk, and how boards often fail on that. What is the Bill missing in respect of making sure that the UK’s corporate governance code is the best it can possibly be? That question is to all three of you, please.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
I am keen to bring other witnesses in for a brief response.
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
I am going to press you a bit. I do not buy much of what you said. In the bubble, you and your members had hundreds of billions of pounds under management. Given that we are being asked to legislate now, we need frankness from you about what you should have done in the good times. I think there has been a dereliction of responsibility. You have not been activist. The dinosaur is just waking up. What should you have done better? What should your members have done? What is the failure that you and your members were part of? We need to work out whether the Government proposals are sensible. We need more frankness from you. Sorry; that might have come across as a bit full-on.
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
I think that is really useful. Can I take one mea culpa each, because that was really helpful?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We have only 10 minutes and six Members want to ask questions.
Simon Danczuk (Labour, Rochdale)
Briefly then, and for the sake of clarity, what additional powers do you want for shareholders that are not currently in the Bill?
Simon Danczuk (Labour, Rochdale)
Nothing more?
Simon Danczuk (Labour, Rochdale)
I will ask your colleagues for their views, but if I were an ordinary shareholder I would have a great sense of conservatism regarding how you guys approach things, and great concerns, because you are not proposing anything more or anything stronger.
Anne Marie Morris (Conservative, Newton Abbot)
I have a few very brief questions. First, do you think that the Bill gets the balance right when it asks members to vote on policy issues compared with voting on specific things such as exit payments? Secondly, Paul made the point that a lot of it is about getting the education and communication right, so what specific suggestions do you have about what could be done differently to get it right?
Thirdly, if we are focused on linking pay and performance, if the Bill goes through, what impact will it have on how boards change the overall pay structure and strategy? There is probably some confusion—dare I say; and I think that some of it is on purpose—about what a job is worth in terms of basic pay, and what the bonus is. If I look at different industry sectors, what gets paid and is considered to be the pay for the job, and what the bonus is, are weighted in a way that is different from that in other sectors. In some sectors part of the bonus is seen as standard pay.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Are the other members of the panel happy with that?
Ian Murray (Labour, Edinburgh South)
Welcome to the panel. In the NAPF response to the BIS executive remuneration discussion paper, with regard to question 7, you said: “The NAPF do not believe that an employee vote on remuneration would be beneficial; however we do see merit in employee consultation on remuneration.” How would that work in practice? Would you like that included in the Bill?
Ian Murray (Labour, Edinburgh South)
But are you suggesting that that should be done with guidance and not legislation?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We will try to squeeze in two more questions, if possible.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
In my opinion, short-term appointments or terms imposed on FTSE 100 boards can lead to short-term strategies, which can be higher-risk. I should like to have your view on that. Is it not a fact that the Bill should deliver on directors’ remuneration, despite Mr Wright’s hobby-horse of lower directors’ pay? It is not a matter of lower pay or higher pay, but the right pay for the right performance. Do you believe that the Bill can deliver that? If not, what does it need to do to deliver that? Surely, the right pay must be the aim.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
So if it gets to the point where they have to vote it down, the system of consultation has already failed at that point, hasn’t it?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Order. I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time available for the Committee to ask questions of the witnesses. I thank all the witnesses on behalf of the Committee.
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Good afternoon. We will now hear oral evidence from the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, the Free Representation Unit, Public Concern at Work and the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service. Perhaps I could ask the witnesses to identify themselves for the record and to indicate whether there are any aspects of the Bill on which you would prefer not to answer questions or on which you have areas of specialism.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
What came out loud and clear in this morning’s session was, I think everybody agrees, about the merits of early conciliation. There are, however, real concerns about whether ACAS is adequately resourced to deal with that, and I would like to hear comments from all members of the panel. Mr Sweeney, in the submission pack you state:
“We are currently discussing with BIS the extra resources we might need to operate the new service but we are confident that BIS will ensure that we are adequately resourced to take on the task.”
Is that not a bit naive?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
What do other members of the panel think?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Mr Sweeney, I do not want you to play your hand in public too much.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
I was going to ask about that. Do you need extra money to be able to carry out the task in the Bill?
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
Edward, mediation seems to work well. Your stats are good—congratulations. You have 75% resolution of cases that your organisation mediates. Why cannot other organisations get involved with mediation? There are many small companies out there that are very good firms. Why can they not be involved?
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
What is your view on claimants having to give ACAS permission before you contact their employer?
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
Surely, there are two sides to a story. Sometimes, there must be vexatious or daft claims, and a quick call from ACAS to the employer to check them out would clarify the situation quite easily.
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
Cathy, you know that people have been making out like bandits with the whistleblower situation. It is a sensible reform—huge amounts of money are spent by companies to settle cases—so what is the problem with it?
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
So you would agree that people have been making a lot of money out of it?
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
So you accept that it has been abused reasonably heavily?
Ian Murray (Labour, Edinburgh South)
Can I go back to the ACAS early conciliation points again, Mr Sweeney? Given some of ACAS’s own figures and from the analysis it has undertaken, you are looking at an increase of some 24,000 early conciliation cases, which, again on ACAS’s own figures, may cost up to an extra £10 million. In response to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool, you said that you were trying to make it fit. Is it the case that you need substantial amounts of additional money, or are you basically taking a good idea and trying to make it fit into the organisation you have currently got, which may be to the detriment to the process working properly for employers and employees?
Ian Murray (Labour, Edinburgh South)
That is a very useful answer. Can I broaden this out slightly more in general terms and ask if any of the panel members can point to any significant evidence that shows that the Bill would generate additional employment or growth in the economy?
Ian Murray (Labour, Edinburgh South)
My final question relates to what Mr Emmott just said. In terms of settlement agreements, if the Secretary of State, as provisioned in the Bill, has the power to alter the amount of compensation to anything as low as median earnings at £25,000 or £26,000, does that not essentially give rise to compensated no-fault dismissal by the back door? Somebody could be earning significant amounts in addition to that and, therefore, it is easier just to go through this process to pay the money in compensation and get rid of an employee than go through the process properly.
Anne Marie Morris (Conservative, Newton Abbot)
It seems to me that, of the two objectives of the changes in the employment regime, the first is surely the need to simplify and speed up the process and, secondly, we need to reduce the cost, both to the employer and to the employee. Does the Bill achieve that, or is there a risk of the law of unintended consequences? Let me explain. Before the Bill, there was no such concept as the settlement agreement. After the Bill, we will have settlement agreements, ACAS conciliation if you do not reach agreement under the settlement and then, if ACAS does not work, the tribunal. So in fact, whether you are employee or employer, you land up with three possible stages. Clearly, the intention must be to keep both sides at the earlier stages, to reduce the cost and, frankly, the emotional trauma. Do we run the risk of unintended consequences, and how might we avoid it by making sure that at least the first stage works in the best way possible?
Anne Marie Morris (Conservative, Newton Abbot)
Do you have a view, Mike?
Anne Marie Morris (Conservative, Newton Abbot)
Is there anything that could be done in terms of these settlement agreements, or the process around settlement agreements, that would mean that they would not be hijacked or face what happened to tribunals, which were originally meant to be nice, cheap, easy ways of resolving problems? What is it that any piece of legislation should or should not do to try to keep things simple, without involving all the advisers, consultants and—forgive me—lawyers?
Simon Danczuk (Labour, Rochdale)
I will start with you, Mike, but I want to ask this question of the entire panel. On balance, overall, and in just a couple of words, will workers be better or less protected following this Bill?
Simon Danczuk (Labour, Rochdale)
So better or less protected in just a few words then.
Simon Danczuk (Labour, Rochdale)
I do not want to.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
We are getting into a lot of the minutiae and actually forgetting that the whole aim of this Bill is to stimulate growth and not to get people sacked, but rather to create more jobs. Will the panel give their opinion of how they think employers are going to view the proposals? How the behaviour of employers will change is important. Does the panel believe that employers feel that there has been huge increase in employment legislation and that that is a disincentive for them to take on more staff? Is that a given that we are presuming? Does the panel believe, as perhaps I hope, that these moderate—rather than radical—changes will have a psychological effect on employers in that they are seeing the tide turn back disproportionately to the reduction in regulations? There are about three questions there. First of all, as a premise, do you honestly believe that employers perceive that this employment legislation is a disincentive to take on more staff?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
It really does not matter what your perception is. What matters is the perception of employers, as they are the ones who employ people.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
We are trying to deliver growth, so can we just stick to answering the question?
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
I want to come back briefly, Mr Sweeney, to the point about ACAS resources. First, it seems to me that, at a time when we are essentially moving from the divorce courts to mediation—obviously, we are moving from tribunals to settlements—the number of tribunals may vastly underestimate the number of people who would come forward for mediation or settlements. There may be a hidden or lower part of the iceberg that will emerge.
Secondly, the economic conditions that we face—basically, zero growth through austerity, and a greater number of part-time staff and people who are insecure—may well again generate more people wanting to go towards settlements. I just find it rather strange that you should run an organisation, in which your resources are presumably almost fully utilised, that will take on this new burden. I am wondering what different scenarios you have pictured of different futures and how big an increment of extra resources you might need in those scenarios. You seem to be saying, “We’ll see how it goes, and thank you very much for offering us some more money, but we don’t really know.”
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
You are going to do that, but what is the upper limit? How many times do you think your turnover might have to go up?
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
But in the round, if there is much more settlement activity than there has been tribunal, because people are coming to the surface, and because there are other things such as withdrawal of various rights and human rights and diversity and so on, and whistleblowing—all the other changes in this Bill, which pretends to be about growth—then that may even provoke greater activity at your end?
Geraint Davies (Labour, Swansea West)
May I ask the other witnesses, given their expertise, whether they instinctively feel that ACAS will be short of a few bob, to put it mildly, if they are not able to ignore some of these big disputes, and therefore people’s rights and hearings may fall off the edge in the short term, while Ministers are scratching their heads and looking for money they have not got?
Chris Ruane (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)
This morning, we heard from the Institute of Directors that the issue of workers, workers’ rights and regulation is the third biggest issue facing the British economy. Our own BIS survey said that regulation rates at 6% as an overall concern for businesses, and regulating workers’ rights is within that 6%. You, more than anyone we will interview, are at the coal face, or the chalk face of contact with employers and workers. Do you detect any great movement out there for weakening workers’ rights? Is it the third biggest issue, or is it part of the 6%? Is the Institute of Directors right, or is it the BIS survey? Is there a great demand out there from the employers you meet on these issues for weakening workers’ rights?
Chris Ruane (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)
Are those issues that you have come across addressed in the Bill—yes or no?
Chris Ruane (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)
Can I ask the rest of the panel their opinion?
Chris Ruane (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)
Is it the third biggest issue?
Chris Ruane (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)
Is that addressed in this Bill?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
You leave Beecroft alone.
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
With all due respect, you are so living in a parallel universe on what small businesses in this country need. You can come to Skipton and Ripon any day you want and I will introduce you to risk takers who definitely need this burden lifted. Can I clarify very clearly the points you made about settlement agreements? To summarise, you are all positive about settling pre-tribunal, whether through a settlement agreement or through conciliation? As long as that settlement agreement is voluntary and there is no long conversation that could be exempt from lots of legal questions, perhaps in the form of a letter—a voluntary offer—that is fine? As long as there is no predetermined compensation you would be happy? As long as at the end of the day there is a compromise agreement where there is legal representation on both sides you would feel on balance, even though you do not love settlement agreements, even though you will never think they are the panacea that we need, you are all okay with them? Could I go through with you one by one whether that is the case?
Julian Smith (Conservative, Skipton and Ripon)
But broadly my four points were fair?
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
A small employer said to me, “The employees have got the rights and the employers have the responsibilities. The balance has tipped too far. At the end of the week I haven’t got a right to a profit. When I don’t make a profit I don’t have any more employees.” Mike Emmott has said that small employers are bothered about taxation. Well, vexation is the equivalent of taxation and regulation is vexation. That is what they see this as. It is almost a form of taxation by regulation.
Andrew Bridgen (Conservative, North West Leicestershire)
So do you believe that employment rights can only ever move in one direction? They have moved in only one direction for the past 50 years. Is that your aim—that they should always move in that direction?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Good legislation needs good analysis, not good anecdotes. It also needs good consultation. May I bring you back to clause 14, as I do not think we covered that as much as we should have done? I do not think we have a particularly good settlement when it comes to clause 14 and whistleblowing. This, from you, Ms James, is an absolutely excellent submission, but could you summarise what you think the problems are in the lack of consultation—I think you say that it is a missed opportunity—on what clause 14 should look like in order to make it better?
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
We have just a few seconds left. Does anyone have a last word on this point?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
A bloke in my constituency told me—[ Laughter. ]
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
I am afraid that brings us to the end of the time allotted to the Committee to ask questions of these witnesses, whom I thank on behalf of the Committee. We will now move on to oral evidence from the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
Examination of Witness
Graham Brady (Conservative, Altrincham and Sale West)
Good afternoon. May I ask you to identify yourself for the record, Mr Wadham? I suspect that you anticipate more questioning on employment aspects of the Bill, so let me know if I am mistaken.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
I want to concentrate on clause 51. This is the Government’s flagship Bill to facilitate enterprise and economic growth. How does clause 51 do that?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Does it help facilitate economic growth in any shape or form?