Local Government Ombudsman (Amendment) Bill

Public Bill Committee, 11 January 2012.

Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)

It is nice to welcome so many colleagues so early in the morning, many of whom are on the Chairman’s Panel—so please be gentle with me. Before we begin consideration of the Bill, we must deal with the sittings motion in the name of the hon. Member in charge. I call Mr Christopher Chope.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

I beg to move,

That, if proceedings on the Bill are not completed at today’s sitting, the Committee do meet on Tuesday at 9.30 am.

Good morning, Mr Walker. It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time. The sittings motion has been tabled to cover the situation that could arise if we cannot complete our proceedings in Committee by 11.30 am this morning, in which event we would meet again at 9.30 am next Tuesday. That would give us sufficient time to complete proceedings before the following Friday, which is the last day on which private Members’ Bills are scheduled to be discussed on the Floor of the House this Session.

Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)

Before we begin consideration of the Bill, I point out that hon. Members may, if they wish, remove their jackets at any stage in our proceedings.

Clause 1 - Amendments to the Local Government Act 1974

Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: clause 2 stand part.

Amendment 3, in clause 3, page 2, line 20, leave out paragraph (a).

Amendment 4, in clause 4, page 2, line 25, leave out ‘Ombudsman (Amendment)’ and insert ‘(Review of Decisions)’.

Amendment 5, in clause 4, page 2, line 27, leave out ‘on’ and insert ‘two months after’.

New clause 1—Decisions invoking health or safety: notification, reasons and review—

‘In the Local Government Act 1974 before Part 3 insert—

Part 2A - Decisions relating to holding of events

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

I rise to support the amendments and new clauses, the effect of which would be to modify the Bill to meet the worries expressed on Second Reading and during the debate on the money resolution. The first major amendment would ensure that the Bill does not result in additional expenditure. Indeed, if it had been drafted in the way now proposed, there would not have been the need for a money resolution—a concern expressed by the Chairman of the Communities and Local Government Committee at the time of the debate on the money resolution.

Effectively, if the amendments were accepted, the Bill would achieve a worthwhile objective and ensure that, when a local authority banned an activity on the grounds of health and safety, it would need to notify such a decision quickly to the organisers and be willing to review any decision within a short time. It would also enable the local government ombudsman to deal with complaints about administration on an accelerated timetable so that any redress could be obtained reasonably quickly. The current legislation does not allow the ombudsman to put some cases or categories of cases on a fast track.

The Bill as originally drafted—which I am now seeking the support of the Committee to amend—proposes to allow the local government ombudsman to award compensation, a matter that neither the Government nor the official Opposition were happy about as it would have opened a potential can of worms in relation to additional costs and burdens. The effect of the amendments and new clauses would be to bring the Bill into line with what most hon. Members want to achieve.

Helen Jones (Labour, Warrington North)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Walker. I do not wish to detain the Committee long, but I want to put on the record the fact that we consider that the Bill—even if it is amended—will impose unnecessary burdens on local authorities. Most authorities already deal with such matters as swiftly and as sensibly as possible.

A myth is going around that what Government Members call the health and safety culture is somehow a huge burden. In fact, it has reduced risks for many people at work —although we are not debating work today—and at public events. It is about public safety. My experience is that most authorities take a sensible view of such matters and seek to assist organisers where they can, so that problems can be ironed out before the event takes place.

In introducing his revised Bill, the hon. Member for Christchurch said that it will not entail any extra expenditure, but I beg to differ. More appeals to the ombudsman will generate extra expenditure for local authorities—for example, providing information, having officers deal with them and so on. Appeals cost money; they are not cost-neutral.

Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)

The hon. Lady seems to be making a case against all ombudsmen, because that is the case with every single one. Surely, all Members of Parliament should champion the cause of having ombudsmen to represent the less powerful.

Helen Jones (Labour, Warrington North)

As someone who has been here longer than the hon. Gentleman—I am getting a bit long in the tooth now—I have dealt with many ombudsman cases, and I need no lessons in helping people get to the ombudsman.

The problem with the amendments is that they would prioritise certain cases over all others, and therefore very serious cases may be pushed back in the queue. I and all hon. Members have dealt with extremely serious cases that have ended up with the local government ombudsman and, for the life of me, I do not see why such cases should be prioritised over others. We cannot therefore accept what the hon. Member for Christchurch has said and we will vote against the clause stand part.

Bob Neill (Conservative, Bromley and Chislehurst)

It is a delight to serve for the first time under your chairmanship, Mr Walker.

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch for his work on the Bill and, if I may say so, for the constructive way he has engaged with the Government and officials in my Department, for which I am personally grateful. The amendments that he has tabled are sensible, and the Government welcome and endorse them. In our judgment, if the Committee is minded to accept them, they will enable the Government to support the Bill.

In response to the comments of the hon. Member for Warrington North, I beg to differ. My hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough is right to point out that the ombudsman’s role as a means of redress for the citizen is important and should not be understated.

The amendments would bring the Bill into line with the recommendations in the report by Lord Young of Graffham, “Common Sense, Common Safety”. That sensible and constructive report made three important recommendations. The first recommended:

“Officials who ban events on health and safety grounds should put their reasons in writing”.

That seems sensible and fair. The second recommended that citizens have

“a route for redress where they want to challenge local officials’ decisions”—

I cannot believe that any Member of the House would object to that. Finally, it suggested that

“Citizens should be able to refer unfair decisions to the Ombudsman”

and that there be a fast-track process, which again seems sensible and proportionate.

Although I accept that in the majority of cases local authorities and their officials act sensibly and proportionately and I recognise that there is a national policy need for sensible health and safety regulation, proportionate risk management is the key factor. Unfortunately, instances have come to light in which the proportionality was questionable, and it is right and proper that, in those circumstances, the citizen should have a means of redress. The Bill, if the amendments are accepted, will fulfil a useful function in achieving that.

Kelvin Hopkins (Labour, Luton North)

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship yet again, Mr Walker, because I have previously done so with great pleasure.

May I first say that I strongly support what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North? I am not only a passionate supporter of our health and safety culture, which is a positive not a negative thing, but a passionate believer in the ombudsman. I have had a great deal to do with her over the past decade or so, as a member of the Public Administration Committee, and she has done an absolutely splendid job. I am sure that our new ombudsman will do an equally splendid job in coming years.

It has been reported only this week that our health and safety culture, which is so mocked in certain parts of the media, means that Britain actually has fewer industrial accidents and deaths than other countries in Europe, and we should be proud of that. I was working at the TUC when the first legislation was passed back in the 1970s—by, I may say, a Labour Government—and I was pleased that it went through. Many people have avoided death and injury over many years as a result of that legislation.

The ombudsman’s role is to protect citizens, who are often in a relatively weak position when it comes to bureaucracies. It is absolutely right that they have a right of redress against maladministration by bureaucracies, organisations and Government. Events put on by businesses, companies and organisations are rather different from those put on by individual citizens, who are in a relatively weak position. I believe passionately in local democracy. Local authorities ought to have the support of Government and all of us in carrying out local democratic duties, one of which is to make sure that any event that happens in their area is safe and that people do not suffer injury or even death. I strongly support my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North and I shall vote with her when we divide.

Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Walker, and to follow the hon. Member for Luton North, who has just spoken. Unusually, I am going to differ from him because I think he has missed the point. He made a fair point about health and safety, and the hon. Member for Warrington North made a fair point about most local authorities acting in fairly. However, we are considering the minority of local authorities that get it wrong. If a member of the public has had an event turned down on ridiculous grounds, they need an urgent way of correcting that. This is not for the vast majority but the minority of cases, which is what the ombudsman is for. We have all seen local authorities acting in unbelievably bad ways with enormous delays.

Opposition Members are voting against the Bill for the wrong reason—because they think it is an attack on health and safety, which it is not. It is about the minority of local authorities that get things wrong because of their culture of delay. The Bill would give the small guy—the individual or event organiser—a speedy way of sorting out the problem without any costly delay.

Finally, the way in which my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch has introduced the Bill and the way in which the Government have co-operated and worked on it is an ideal example of how a private Member’s Bill should progress through the House. I hope that the Bill is accepted by the Committee and that we can debate it again in the next couple of weeks.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

It gives me great pleasure to respond. I thank all those who have contributed to the debate and all those who have contributed by their presence here today. The Committee has been well attended, and we have had a short and pithy debate on the key issues. I also thank my hon. Friend the Minister for his supportive words and the support of his officials, and for giving access to parliamentary counsel for their advice on how to redraft the Bill to ensure that we could achieve the main objectives.

I am disappointed with the response from the hon. Member for Warrington North. She rightly made the point that most local authorities take a sensible approach. They do, but the Bill is not about them; it is about the small minority of local authorities that do not take a sensible approach and, as a result, cause dismay to people who are trying to organise voluntary or charitable activities in their communities. Just before Second Reading, I told the House about Beaulieu, where the local authority had intervened to prevent the annual pancake race taking place. It said that it would be dangerous for people to run through the streets of Beaulieu and that they should only walk. Indeed, one of the competitors who broke into a trot just before the finishing line was disqualified. That is the sort of nonsense that the Bill is designed to address. It would require a local authority in such situations to spell out the reasons. As soon as it has to spell out the reasons, which can then be articulated in the local press, the publicity probably achieves its own objective and the local authority then relents.

On a related topic from the same locality, there was a recent proposal to close down Lymington cricket ground, because every now and again cricket balls went out of the ground and into the adjoining tennis club. One of the parish councillors strongly promoted the idea that the cricket ground should be closed. When that hit the headlines in the local paper, she was quick to relent, and when the decision was reversed in favour of the cricket club, she was not available for comment. That is the power of local publicity, but that comes only when there is proper accountability and when somebody is required to give reasons for their decision, which may have been arbitrary.

Helen Jones (Labour, Warrington North)

The interesting example cited by the hon. Gentleman would not be covered by the Bill, because the parish council would not have the power to close down the cricket ground. It would be dealt with, as in his example, simply by publicity.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

The hon. Lady misrepresents the situation. The example I cited was the pancake race, where the local authority intervened. The example I gave of adverse publicity creating a different atmosphere causing people to change views, was, I agree, about a parish council. That does not alter the fact. The main example I gave would be dealt with directly by the provisions of the Bill. We are talking not about the vast majority of responsible authorities, but the irresponsible minority.

The hon. Lady said that there would be more appeals to the ombudsman. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough said, there would be appeals only if local councils’ behaviour resulted in aggrieved individuals and organisations referring the matter to the ombudsman. My hope is that transparency will ensure there will not be such appeals.

Kelvin Hopkins (Labour, Luton North)

I support my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North. When I was at junior school I was hit on the head by a cricket ball, which was very painful. We did not have health and safety rules then to stop that happening. The hon. Member for Christchurch is right about having to give reasons; that is perfectly acceptable. However, having recourse to the ombudsman for matters of that nature is taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut. The publicity is enough, as he said. Simply being required to give a reason for preventing somebody throwing cricket balls at small boys is perfectly reasonable. Clogging up the ombudsman with cases of that kind would bring health and safety rules into disrepute. That is going too far.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention because it enables me to make some points. I am glad he supports the need to give reasons, a matter covered by new clause 1, which I hope he will support. New clause 1 does not refer to the ombudsman; it would require local authorities to give reasons in such a situation, which they do not have to do at present.

New clause 2 deals with the local government ombudsman. It would change the rules so that the ombudsman would be able to fast-track some complaints. The hon. Member for Warrington North is incorrect: new clause 2 is not linked to those particular health and safety cases. It would simply give the ombudsman a general power that he does not have at the moment to deal with some cases more quickly. Whether he decided to take forward a case in the circumstances we described more quickly would be a matter for his sole discretion. At the moment that is not possible; the ombudsman has to deal with all cases at the same pace. The hon. Member for Luton North might think that an unnecessary constraint on the ability of the ombudsman to produce quick redress.

The proposed measure is very modest. It would lead to more appeals to the ombudsman only if local authorities responded unreasonably in certain circumstances.

Hywel Williams (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

I assume that the pancake race was on Shrove Tuesday, which highlights the importance in the Bill of fast tracking, and of encouraging local authorities not to ban time-dependent events. I have had experience of such matters in my constituency.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

That is the point—the hon. Gentleman hits the nail on the head. That concern was expressed by Lord Young in his report. He said that we need some redress in these situations and suggested that, ultimately, compensation should be available. I have already explained why that will not now be included in the Bill, but even giving people the opportunity to go to the ombudsman and ask for a reasonably quick decision will help concentrate minds in the local authority. Otherwise, people might have to wait a year or 18 months before the ombudsman says, “Back in 2010, the local authority behaved badly in banning that pancake race.”

Peter Bone (Conservative, Wellingborough)

My hon. Friend is generous in giving way. I am concerned that the hon. Member for Luton North has said that the measure will clog up the ombudsman, because he is implying that local authorities make many bad decisions, which I do not accept. Does my hon. Friend have an estimate of how many cases might be referred to the ombudsman as a result of the legislation?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

I have not, and I do not think that any rational person would be able to do anything other than put a figure up in the wind and see. It will depend on the power of local publicity and the reasonableness of local authority members and their officers. Sometimes I suspect that officers introduce banning orders without consulting their members. Under new clause 1, members must be involved, because reasons for the decision must be given, which will be an important addition to accountability.

Kelvin Hopkins (Labour, Luton North)

Obviously, officers have to take decisions on a range of matters—health inspections and so on—without necessarily referring them immediately to elected councillors. I think the same situation applies in these matters. Involving the ombudsman opens the way for mischief by those who oppose health and safety provisions and legislation in general, encouraging them to raise cases and get more coverage in the Daily Mail, and so on. I strongly oppose the current drift of hostility to health and safety legislation, especially from the Prime Minister. It is valuable and something that we should be proud of.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

I point out to the hon. Gentleman that currently someone who is aggrieved can refer a matter to the ombudsman, but the Bill gives him the scope and discretion to deal with such a case more quickly than he currently can. The measure does not, for the first time, give people power to take cases to the ombudsman, because they can do that already; it gives the ombudsman power, under new clause 2, to deal with such cases more quickly if he so decides. The Bill does not introduce the sweeping changes that a radical such as the hon. Gentleman might want to see in legislation. It is, though I say so myself, a modest set of proposals that does not go anything like as far as he suggests in amending existing arrangements.

I hope that I have allayed some concerns in responding to this short but lively debate and that Committee members will now be keen to support the Bill so that it can make further progress.

Clause 3 - Financial provisions

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

The clause speaks for itself, but since the amendment was opposed by some hon. Members, I just point out that the amendment restricts the application of clause 3, and I would have thought that would be welcomed. Clause 3, as amended, does not propose that there should be any further expenditure as a result of the Bill’s provisions, so I cannot understand why those who were concerned about the clause supported its original form. Now that it has been amended, I hope that it will find favour with the whole Committee.

Clause 4 - Short title, commencement and extent

New Clause 1 - Decisions invoking health or safety: notification, reasons and review

Part 2A - Decisions relating to holding of events

New Clause 2 - Procedure for investigations by Local Government Ombudsman

Title

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

I would just like to put on record my appreciation, and I think the Committee’s appreciation, of your robust chairmanship, Mr Walker. Once again, I thank everyone for participating in this important occasion. I hope that the Bill will be able to make further progress. Without being too disparaging of some Opposition Members, I hope that when we get to the next stage they will actually look at the Bill and see whether they can understand it. I think that if they do so, they would be more supportive of the Bill than some of them have been hitherto.

Bob Neill (Conservative, Bromley and Chislehurst)

As well as joining my hon. Friend in congratulating you, Mr Walker, on your expeditious and expert chairmanship of the Committee, and thanking hon. Members, I put on record the Government’s view that, in light of the amendments having been accepted by the Committee, the provisions of the Bill are compatible with the European convention on human rights.

Helen Jones rose—

Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)

I believe that the shadow Minister has a good-natured final comment to make.

Helen Jones (Labour, Warrington North)

I, too, would like to thank you for your chairmanship of this Committee, Mr Walker. It is probably a record for anything involving the hon. Member for Christchurch to be dealt with in little more than half an hour. I also thank my hon. Friends for being here this morning and for participating in what has been a good-natured debate, which we look forward to continuing on the Floor of the House.

Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)

I would like to thank everybody for being here, and I would like to thank the Clerk and her team. It is possible to have this much fun between 9.30 and 10 am.