London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (Amendment) Bill

Public Bill Committee, 17 May 2011.

(Morning)

Katy Clark (Labour, North Ayrshire and Arran)

Before we begin, I have a few preliminary announcements to make.

Members may remove their jackets during Committee sittings if they wish. Members should ensure that mobile phones, pagers and other such devices are turned off or switched to silent mode during Committee sittings. Also, as a general rule, I and my fellow Chair do not intend to call starred amendments that have not been tabled with adequate notice. The required notice period in Public Bill Committees is three working days. Therefore, amendments should be tabled by the rise of the House on Monday for consideration on Thursday, and by the rise of the House on Thursday for consideration on Tuesday.

For members of the Committee less familiar with the process of taking oral evidence in Public Bill Committees, it may help if I explain how we will proceed. The Committee will be asked first to consider the programme motion on the amendment paper, on which debate is limited to half an hour. We will proceed to a motion to report written evidence, and then to a motion, which I hope we can take formally, to permit the Committee to deliberate in private in advance of the oral evidence sessions. Assuming that the last of those motions has been agreed to, the Committee will go into private session. Once the Committee has deliberated, the witnesses and the members of the public will be invited back into the room and our oral evidence session will begin. If the Committee agrees to the programme motion, we will hear oral evidence this morning. I call the Minister to move the programme motion standing in its name.

Hugh Robertson (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)

I beg to move,

That—

(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 10.30 am on Tuesday 17 May) meet—

(a) at 4.00 pm on Tuesday 17 May;

(b) at 9.00 am and 1.00 pm on Thursday 19 May;

(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:

TABLE

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Welcome to the Chair, Ms Clark. Labour Members are very happy to support the programme motion. The Minister has made clear the technical nature of the Bill. It gives effect to a number of the commitments that we made in 2005 when we won the right to host the Olympic games and updates the 2006 legislation. Perhaps unusually for such sittings, it carries almost complete cross-party support. Indeed, that has been one of the great strengths of the progress that we have made in our hosting of the Olympic games. It has won the confidence of the International Olympic Committee, our country’s athletes, the organising committee, the sponsors and the people of this country, who see these games as their Olympics, held in trust by the Government of the time. I am happy to support the programme motion.

Katy Clark (Labour, North Ayrshire and Arran)

Copies of memorandums that the Committee receives will be available in the Committee Room.

Examination of Witnesses

Katy Clark (Labour, North Ayrshire and Arran)

Welcome. We will now hear evidence from the Olympic Delivery Authority and the Federation of Small Businesses. I welcome the witnesses, and ask them to introduce themselves to the Committee.

Katy Clark (Labour, North Ayrshire and Arran)

Thank you very much. Before I call the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick strictly to the timings of the programme motion that the Committee has agreed. I hope that I do not have to interrupt Members or witnesses mid-sentence, but I will do so if needs be.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

My question to Mr Sumner is about the responsibility for those parts of the Olympic route network that are outside London and the stress testing of the route network in advance of the games.

Mary Macleod (Conservative, Brentford and Isleworth)

I would like to take a step back and ask each of you in turn to give your initial thoughts and a summary of your views on the impact of the Bill—things you think will help with the delivery of the Olympics and any challenges you think it may bring.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

May I come back with another question? First, will you tell the Committee a little about whether these are broadly equivalent to the powers that have been taken by other host cities? Secondly, what lessons have you learned from the operation of the ORN, which has been controversial in other cities, and how will you ameliorate those weaknesses in London?

Mary Macleod (Conservative, Brentford and Isleworth)

What discussions have you had, and who with, on the impact of the Olympics and the Bill on business, particularly small businesses? What discussions have you had, and what has been the outcome?

Malcolm Wicks (Labour, Croydon North)

Mr Sumner, a question for you. I hope it does not keep you awake at night, but what is the biggest headache within your portfolio? What is your biggest worry? Are there any amendments to the Bill that would help?

Katy Clark (Labour, North Ayrshire and Arran)

Gavin, you wanted to come in?

Gavin Barwell (Conservative, Croydon Central)

My questions are on street trading, so if others have questions in this area I am happy to wait.

Katy Clark (Labour, North Ayrshire and Arran)

Tessa?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Perhaps I will carry on with a couple of further questions on the ORN. Mr Sumner, where would you anticipate the maximum pressure will be? I would like to explain this question a bit. My experience of the other games that I have attended is that maintaining the support of the public for the necessity of the ORN is a very important part of ensuring the overall smooth running of the games. I remember both in Beijing and Athens, roads had one lane dedicated to the ORN, traffic-free, with large cars gliding along, while the residents of Athens and the normal spectators sat bumper to bumper in the other two lanes. That image would not be good for London. I think we all know that.

Before the election, when we had discussions with the Mayor about relocating two of the sports to Wembley, the impact on the north circular was one of the major considerations. Could you be more specific in following up Malcolm Wicks’s question: at which parts of the network do you anticipate maximum pressure? Will we see two lanes bumper to bumper, and one lane dedicated to easy passage for our athletes—most importantly—and for the IOC? What do you expect regarding traffic flows on the north circular during the games?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

May I ask, what is the period of time that you define as peak?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

In relation to other events that will take place at the same time—for example, there will be at least two weekends when Premier League football will be played in London during the Olympics—what consideration has been given to traffic planning on the route that will need to take place to accommodate them?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

Potentially, you will need to make decisions on traffic management, not by the minute, but certainly almost day by day, particularly if things do not work out at the beginning. How will those decisions be communicated to the public, particularly motorists, who may suddenly find that there are changes to the arrangements?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

I am particularly concerned about ordinary Londoners going about their normal day-to-day business suddenly finding that, for some reason, they cannot use their normal route. How can they discover that, to make sure that they are not suddenly going to be inadvertently fined or given a penalty notice or something like that when the information has not been communicated to them? What assurance can you give that that will not happen?

Malcolm Wicks (Labour, Croydon North)

Following Tessa Jowell’s question, my guess would be that Londoners fully understand that the athletes, the sports people, those officiating and so on, need a fast route, but when the inevitable traffic jams occur, Londoners will not be impressed if lots of other people, lots of bigwigs in big limousines, are swishing by while the good Londoner is stuck in the traffic jam. Can you assure the Committee that we have this side of it under control?

Mary Macleod (Conservative, Brentford and Isleworth)

As much as I am incredibly supportive of the Olympics—I think all Londoners are, because we can prove how well London can perform at such an amazing event, as well as others who are involved across Britain—I want to press the point of the impact on business. There are some businesses that will not benefit from the games per se, so I want to make sure that they can still trade as normal. For example, Fuller’s on the A4 coming into London, says that it has struggled to find information about the changes that will be imposed on it. Mr Sumner, you mentioned adjusting freight patterns. That is an incredibly difficult job for some businesses because of having to change shift patterns, contracts and so forth. A lot of work goes into that and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East said, you may need to be quite flexible at short notice. What have you been doing to make sure that businesses such as Fuller’s can still operate as planned and trade as normal? Ms Holdroyd, how confident are your members that they have been involved and included and that they feel they can still trade as normal?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

May I bring Mr Sumner back to the games lanes? Do you feel that the enforcement powers in this Bill, and in other legislation already on the statute book, are going to be strong enough to enforce any traffic infringements around the use of the games lanes? How do you envision that that will work in reality?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

So will there be fixed penalty notices for infringement, or are you hoping that it will not be necessary?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

Allegedly, 25% of vehicles in London are driven by someone other than the registered keeper. If someone is knowingly driving a vehicle that does not belong to them, then just using number plate recognition schemes will not work. What will happen in those instances?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

Will you explain what will happen to the games lanes after the games have finished? Could some nefarious Mayor decide to utilise those games lanes for some other purpose afterwards?

Hugh Robertson (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)

Indeed, if I might interrupt, that is enshrined in the 2006 Act. It is time-limited and goes into receivership after the games are over.

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

May I ask about car parking? You mention that there will be strategic park-and-ride areas. What consideration has been given to creating those areas around parts of London? Every time there is a major event at Wembley, half of my constituency becomes a car park and people use the last two or three stops on the tube line to get to Wembley Stadium. Clearly, that is inconvenient for local residents on Saturdays, Sundays and during the week. This could potentially be quite an extended period of time, so I wonder what temporary park-and-ride schemes will be available. I know that these are meant to be public transport games, but the experience of Wembley shows that you can make it completely public transport-friendly, but people will still use their cars from outside London and park as close to the area as they can.

John Cryer (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Going back to the effect on businesses, I represent Leyton, which is so close it is almost on the Olympic park. In fact, if you come out of Leyton tube station, which I am sure you do regularly, you can see across the Olympic park, but we do not have any facilities inside the borough of Waltham Forest. I have got a lot of narrow streets with a lot of small businesses. Going back to your answer to Mary Macleod’s question, did you consult with all those businesses, through surgeries, mail drops and all that sort of thing?

John Cryer (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Okay. Does anybody else want to say anything on that?

John Cryer (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

I was in and out of a number of businesses yesterday on Cann Hall road, which is pretty close to where the Olympics will be. If any of them had a problem now or in future, what would be the point of contact?

John Cryer (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Sorry, but from what you have just said, there is no plan in place to deal with the problems of businesses in Leyton. How soon will that plan be put in place?

John Cryer (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

And when will we get to a stage when a plan will be in place?

John Cryer (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Generally, what are the implications of this legislation for public transport?

John Cryer (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

In that context, apart from emergency closures that might be necessary due to problems on a particular day, are there any plans to close any tube stations during the 2012 games?

John Cryer (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

But will east London have any stations that will be exit or entrance only?

Katy Clark (Labour, North Ayrshire and Arran)

Does anyone want to come in on those issues?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Yes, I have one more question. The amendments essentially allow enormous, virtually unfettered discretion to TfL to amend the ORN as is needed for the proper running of the games. First, Hugh, could you say a little bit about the way in which you will protect that freedom so that it is proportionate? Secondly, what do you estimate is the time between you deciding that there must be a variation to the route network and that taking effect? What notice, if any, will drivers and travellers get? Finally, a point of fact: is there any point in the ORN where bus lanes will be closed in order to facilitate the extra lane for Olympic traffic? You may want to come back to us on that.

Mike Freer (Conservative, Finchley and Golders Green)

Mr Sumner, may I take you back to your comments on roadworks? Will you confirm that all roadworks within all London boroughs will be suspended for the period of the Olympic games, not just utilities? You mentioned utility companies, but I am concerned about all roadworks, whether they are pavement extensions, town centre improvements or street lighting replacements. Sometimes these seem to continue while the major roadworks are suspended, and often the minor roadworks cause just as much disruption.

Katy Clark (Labour, North Ayrshire and Arran)

Does anyone else want to come in on any of those issues?

Mary Macleod (Conservative, Brentford and Isleworth)

What scenario planning has been done for emergency procedures? It might be, for example, a major accident or a terrorist threat. Do you feel that there is enough in the Bill to cover those situations?

Gavin Barwell (Conservative, Croydon Central)

A quick question to Mr Sumner, picking up on the point he made about fines for driving within restricted areas of the Olympic network. If I heard you correctly, you said that, subject to the decision of the Secretary of State for Transport, the results of your consultation exercise were that there should be a £200 fine, reduced to £100 if people paid within a certain time. You said that most of the organisations that responded to the consultation thought that that was the right answer. How many ordinary Londoners responded to the consultation?

Katy Clark (Labour, North Ayrshire and Arran)

Does anyone else want to come in, particularly on any of the transport issues? I think that there are Members who want to come in on advertising and trading issues, so it might make sense for us to move on to that terrain. Would any Member like to come in on that?

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

May I ask Alice a simple question first? Is there anything in the Bill that you have concerns about? Secondly, although in the round, the sums are relatively small, so will you explain to me the impact assessment and the financial information we were given, as I still have a little difficulty? We are told that the additional cost of transferring responsibility for dealing with seized items from the police to the ODA, which in turn will no doubt pass it on to trading standards officers, is £22,000. Later in the documentation, however, we are told that by doing that there will be a net saving to the public purse of £55,000. I assume, therefore, that the cost of the police doing this is £77,000 more than if trading standards officers did it. Would you explain that?

Thirdly, will you remind us what acceptable existing trading will be exempted from the new rules when they kick in? In other words, if the Mayor of London wishes to extend his bike scheme, sponsored by Barclays, right out to the Olympic park, sponsored by Visa, how quickly will he have to do it before he is in breach of the rules?

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

As a supplementary before you move on to the other questions, will you confirm that it is your view that the procedures operated by trading standards officers around the country, under the legislation that applies to them, are a more sensible set of rules and approaches than applies to police, and that it might be appropriate to change the police rules in due course?

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

Very good. Nice political answer.

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

Just so I am clear, any shop or any regularly agreed venue that is advertising a non-Olympic sponsor, as long as it is there four days in advance of the event, will not be attacked, have goods seized or whatever, including Boris bikes?

Duncan Hames (Liberal Democrat, Chippenham)

Alice, you will be familiar with the various mechanisms by which the Metropolitan police is accountable to the public. Will you explain to us how the ODA and its officers will be accountable for their conduct of seizures?

Duncan Hames (Liberal Democrat, Chippenham)

If there is any contention about whether that is what has actually taken place, is it entirely through the local authorities that that can be challenged?

Gavin Barwell (Conservative, Croydon Central)

How much freedom does London have over the definition of infringing articles? Is that something that was agreed with the IOC as part of the whole deal or is there a reasonable amount of freedom about that? What is the definition? Can you give us more clarity about what is an infringing article?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

Can you say how this will operate? The venues in London will be quite diverse and spaced around London, but it is not just limited to London and there are venues outside. As I understand it, there will be strict enforcement within the immediate facility of the venues. However, Londoners all over London will, for example, be entering tube stations, and potentially people selling articles. The former individuals will then turn up at Olympic venues to be told, “Sorry, that is illegal and I am going to take it off you.” Possibly that will include even the shirt off their back. How will that be operated?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

This continues then. There will quite rightly be strict enforcement in operation around the venues, but presumably illegal street traders can set up stores outside any tube station or any route across London. What action can be taken against them?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

The other issue is what consideration has been given to consultation with small businesses within the facility of the games on what they can and cannot do over that period.

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

What about small businesses outside the main games area? They are the ones that may be affected for only relatively short periods, but they may be completely unaware of the restrictions. What consultation will you have with them?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

One final point from me. The legislation brings the regulation in line with that for Glasgow in the Commonwealth games. Obviously, the Olympics is a much bigger event, but were any particular lessons learnt during the Commonwealth games that will be translated into the Olympics?

Hugh Robertson (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)

The issue with the Glasgow games, Bob, is that the Act that the Scottish Parliament put through was in 2008. This just brings the subsequent arrangements into line with that.

Katy Clark (Labour, North Ayrshire and Arran)

If Members have no further questions for this set of witnesses, that brings us to the end of this part of the evidence session. I thank our witnesses; we appreciate your coming today and the time that you have given. We hope that you found it an enjoyable experience and not too much of an ordeal.

Katy Clark (Labour, North Ayrshire and Arran)

The new panel has arrived, so we shall commence with their evidence. We are to hear evidence from the London Trading Standards Association, the Outdoor Media Centre and the Trading Standards Institute. I welcome all four witnesses to the sitting and, once they have had the opportunity to make themselves comfortable, I should be grateful if they would introduce themselves to the Committee, beginning with Guy Pratt.

Katy Clark (Labour, North Ayrshire and Arran)

Thank you. Welcome to all four of you. Hon. Members will have a range of questions to ask you. Who would like to lead?

Mary Macleod (Conservative, Brentford and Isleworth)

Thank you gentlemen for coming in today. Perhaps you can each begin by giving us your view of the things in the Bill, the impact of the Bill and any challenges that it might give you.

Mary Macleod (Conservative, Brentford and Isleworth)

Clause 1 talks a lot about “infringing articles”. We asked the previous panel whether they were all comfortable with the definition, or lack of definition, of such articles. Do you think the term is self-explanatory, and that the Bill can easily implement it?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

The intellectual property of the Olympics is subject to tight protection because it is so valuable. In making the argument for the games, the protection of intellectual property and the ORN are both points where the insistence and the obligation that come with hosting the games may rub up against public support. We have been, on a cross-party basis, tough in saying, “You want to host an Olympics? This is what you have to do.” That said, we are all concerned to ensure that, where these breaches of the Olympic marque occur and require you or your officers to move in and seize goods, that is done in a fair and proportionate way. That is similar to the discussion that we were having earlier about the application of the ORN. We, as I am sure you do, have a clear idea of where the good will towards the Olympics erupts into a bit of negative public feeling.

Can you take us through a couple of scenarios where you would apply these powers? What, for you, would be the gold standard of good practice to achieve the objective of protecting the Olympic marque or Olympic sponsors while, at the same time, not treating the vast majority who were responsible for that kind of breach as if they were carbon-copy fraudsters, because the majority of them will not be.

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

Can I just follow up on your answer to Tessa Jowell? Outside the Olympic venues, you are quite rightly suggesting that all sorts of people will try to do all sorts of things and trading standards officers all round the country will presumably anticipate that. Have either the association or the institute made an assessment of the likely increase in activity of trading standards officers in each area, and what the cost implication will be? Clearly, you rightly say that there is no money to pay for it and so on.

Can I ask a second question about money? In relation to the handling of seized items, which is covered specifically by the Bill, we know that that will be transferred from the police to the ODA. We also know that it is likely, but not finally agreed, that the ODA will use trading standards officers near the Olympic park and other venues to do the work. We also know that the figure put in the impact assessment as the additional cost to the ODA is £22,000 which, presumably, is likely to be money then handed to trading standards officers for that work. Can you tell us whether you believe that that sum of money is appropriate?

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

Can you help the Committee by telling us how you think that someone has come to this very precise figure of £22,000, if there have been no discussions?

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

Could Mr Bilon help us?

Mary Macleod (Conservative, Brentford and Isleworth)

Do you think there has been enough consultation on the whole issue of advertising linked with the Olympics? For example, there are certainly major restrictions within the Olympic site itself, but will we suddenly see a large amount of outdoor advertising on the routes into London, one of which goes directly through my constituency? Do you have any idea about future growth in advertising in that period?

Mary Macleod (Conservative, Brentford and Isleworth)

What is the distance that covers? Is it between venues? How far around London does that extend?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

We heard earlier that as a result of this Bill the police will not necessarily be attached to enforcement officers. Do you have any concern about not having a police presence when you need to take action?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

Moving on to how some of these actions may impact across London, obviously, within the tight arrangements around the venues there will be strict enforcement taking place. One of the points I raised earlier was, what about around tube stations all around London and areas outside the venues? How will you operate, given the Bill, on enforcing the regulations?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

Bill, you will be aware that around Wembley stadium many of the routes into the stadium on foot are in private ownership, as opposed to being a public highway. That enables greater enforcement to take place on those particular areas. Across London, at a lot of the Olympic venues, there are public highways. I understand that there are different restrictions that would apply to the public highway as opposed to private land. Are you content that the proposals in the Bill are sufficient to give you the powers you need to enforce the whole process?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

Given that is the issue, and that enforcement officers at the Olympic venues are likely to be trading standards officers, will there be a need to bring in trading standards officers from other parts of the country to cover the rest of London, to compensate for the people going to the Olympic venues?

Duncan Hames (Liberal Democrat, Chippenham)

Earlier, we were reassured that ambush marketing is typically conducted knowingly; indeed, people are generally paid to do it. Do you think that, through some innovative marketing technique, members of the public could be unknowingly conscripted as ambush marketeers? Can we be confident that they will be treated sensibly, especially if they are children or teenagers?

Malcolm Wicks (Labour, Croydon North)

Within all that, can you assure us that a citizen is perfectly at liberty to go to the Olympic games wearing a T-shirt or whatever that might advertise a product, without the risk of being harassed? Secondly, from the earlier discussion, I got the impression that the exact nature of the co-operation between you, your officers and the police was not clear. Is there a danger that the police might say that they have enough to worry about without helping trading standards officers? Do you think you need to have these negotiations at a more senior level?

Malcolm Wicks (Labour, Croydon North)

What does that mean? Are you going to get help from police officers or not?

Malcolm Wicks (Labour, Croydon North)

As prompted by my colleague, Tessa Jowell, if a child turns up wearing a T-shirt advertising a certain type of sporty blend, they’re not going to be—

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Or asked to take their T-shirt off?

Hugh Robertson (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)

I went into this in some detail when it came up on Second Reading. A child turning up wearing a T-shirt with an advertising label on it that contravenes the sponsors will not be asked to take it off. Indeed, if any children should turn up wearing football shirts with another advertiser on them, they will not be asked to take them off.

Hugh Robertson (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)

They are specifically excepted.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Sorry to press this, but what happens if a whole class of children turn up from an east London primary school wearing Nike shirts when Adidas is the sponsor? This is the kind of thing that we want to avoid. Do not feel that you have to give an answer now, but I do not think that any member of the Committee wants to see a class of 30 children being told that they have to take off their Nike shirts. However, it might be a good idea for schools to be circulated and told that there are certain rules and that, if they get Nike kit for school sports, it would be an idea not to look as if they were making a point.

Hugh Robertson (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)

It is perfectly possible that it could happen with Sainsbury’s kit, because it dishes out schools kit.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Plain T-shirts over a Nike T-shirt?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

I presume that anyone organising ambush advertising would get disparate people to turn up either wearing the clothes or with them secreted about their person, as it were, and to put them on when they got into the stadium to cause an incident in full view of the cameras. What plans do you have to combat that sort of scheme? Other people will, no doubt, be thinking about all sorts of other scams.

Hugh Robertson (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)

May I cite the fact that we have got to that level of discussion? If that were to happen, they would be removed from the stadium.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I think you will take from this discussion a concern that the Bill’s provisions are one thing, but that everything hinges on their proper application and implementation when necessary. In a way, there is all the difference in the world between 20 young people who come in with the intention of making a demonstration that breaches the rules and a party of school kids who come in from some other part of the country and who are all wearing Puma or Nike shirts or similar. What we want to be confident about is that the training given to volunteers and trading standards officers who will be on the gates, as it were, will be sufficiently sophisticated so that they can draw a distinction between those two things. It is fine to punish people who set out to break the law. It is quite a different thing to ruin the day for a whole lot of kids, elderly people or people who are quite innocently coming to enjoy their time at the Olympics.

John Cryer (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Following on from what Tessa said earlier, I was at a school yesterday morning that is virtually within walking distance of the Olympic site. This particular school has a logo on its tops. Frankly, I do not agree with the idea that 30 of those children might enter the Olympic site and be given plain T-shirts to wear. They should be allowed to enter the Olympic site and the event regardless of what they are wearing.

John Cryer (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Fair enough.

Michael McCann (Labour, East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow)

There have been so many brands mentioned already that we might be guilty of ambush advertising. Mr Pratt mentioned the potential to bring in additional staff. I have no concerns about professional trading standards officers, but this event will be vast. I have attended many sports venues in my time, and all you need is one person, whom we would normally describe as a jobsworth, to cause a problem, which can blow into something it was never intended to be. Can you convince and reassure us that if additional staff are brought in, they too will get the appropriate training and be aware of the potential for a flashpoint to be created over something very small?

Katy Clark (Labour, North Ayrshire and Arran)

If Members have no further questions for these witnesses, that brings us to the end of our business for this morning. I thank all four witnesses for coming along and giving up their time. That is very much appreciated by the Committee. The Committee will sit again to take further evidence at 4 o’clock this afternoon.

Examination of Witness

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Good afternoon and welcome. This is our afternoon evidence session of the London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games Bill Committee. We have our first witness, Mr Garrett Emmerson. Would you kindly introduce yourself, explain what you do and then perhaps make an opening statement to the Committee?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Wonderful. Could you speak a little louder, so that they can pick up the notes? Colleagues, who would like to open things? Tessa Jowell.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Thank you. What problem do you think that we might face that has been given too little attention?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

May I add to that? One of the things that we did at one point discuss on the Olympic Board was the feasibility not only of modelling but of some kind of trial run. For instance, getting everyone to the stadium for the opening ceremony: most will come not by road, but by rail and other means. But I think that after the millennium we are all aware of how fragile these well worked-out plans can be under pressure if they have not been stress tested. What confidence can you give us that it will be all right on the night, for the 16 days afterwards and the 11 days of the Paralympics?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

May I follow that up by asking what net reduction in the normal traffic volume in London you are calculating for, on the basis that in August traffic drops anyway by between 15% and 20%? What percentage increase, back up again, are you assuming for the Olympics?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

A 20% reduction?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

So a 30% reduction of the road network?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

May I take it on from where you were going? Obviously, a key concern for many Londoners for this whole period of the Olympics and the Paralympics will be how they go about their day-to-day business. I accept your calculation of a 30% reduction for one day, which is a bank holiday. That is fair enough, but when people are trying to get to work and they are running their businesses, are you saying that you expect a 30% reduction in traffic for the whole of the 30 day-period?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

There will be a lot of people coming from outside London to visit the games. Many of them, despite all best efforts, will come by car. What arrangements are you making for appropriate park-and-ride schemes around the whole of London, not just in the immediate vicinity of the main games site?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

But TfL is interested.

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

The aim is for this to be a public transport type of games.

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

What impact assessment have you made on the level of usage of public transport over the extended period of the games? Clearly, we will then be in a position in which people are going to the games venues every day, but others will be travelling to and from work, potentially at the same periods of time. I know what the stress already is on the underground network and, indeed, on the bus network.

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

My final issue is the enforcement of the various elements of the network. How are you going to ensure, for example, that the games lanes are kept clear, and what enforcement measures will be implemented as a result?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

And you are content that the enforcement measures in the Bill are sufficient to give you the powers that you need?

Mike Freer (Conservative, Finchley and Golders Green)

This morning, Mr Emmerson, we heard from a witness from the ODA, who talked about the suspension of all streetworks in London on the Olympic route network, the alternative route network and the A and B roads in the boroughs. I have to say that that was very welcome. May I press you on a couple of points, about which you might have more detail?

First, when we say that streetworks will be suspended, does that mean not just that the works will be stopped, but that roads will be reinstated for the period of time of the Olympics? If works are going on, suspending them would still keep the blockages in place. We need reinstatement, so that there is a clear flow of traffic. Secondly, there will clearly be emergencies. If there is a burst water main, it will have to be dealt with. Is TfL insisting on lane-rental-type penalties or night-time working to ensure that emergency works are done as fast as possible?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

I want to ask a few questions about public transport. I know you said that with regard to the roads there can be a reduction during August of up to 30%, because people are not at work, but is the same true for the numbers on the tubes and the buses? My experience is often that the tubes can be busier, because we have tourists from all over the country—if not the world—here during a regular August anyway. I am interested in the normal reduction for August, if there is one, on the buses and the tubes. Can you go on to talk about your plans for the huge numbers of extra people who will be on the buses and tubes travelling to and from the Olympics? A further question is the effect on regular Londoners who are trying to get to and from work using the tube in the normal way.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Although you are TfL, you do not cover public transport.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Do you not work for TfL?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

So you cannot speak specifically.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

I do not think we are having anyone from public transport—a specialist.

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

We will move on to Mary Macleod.

Mary Macleod (Conservative, Brentford and Isleworth)

Thank you, Chairman. Mr Emmerson, I want to ask you about the impact of the legislation on non-games-related traffic. As you said, it is important to make sure that London continues to run as smoothly as possible. Having a London constituency makes me focus on that part of it. Will you talk about whether you think the Bill covers and provides enough support for any challenges or emergencies that we may face?

Secondly, have we involved enough local people in understanding the impact on them? If I take as an example Chiswick where I am in west London, Chiswick high road is a nightmare during rush hours at the best of times, and with some of the alterations for the Olympics it will no doubt be even worse. A great solution would be to let the Piccadilly line stop at Turnham Green, because that would solve a lot of the problems, but as you are a specialist on roads, I want to make sure that we have done the background research to understand the impact by using enough local people. They are the ones on the ground who know how the system works on a daily basis.

Mary Macleod (Conservative, Brentford and Isleworth)

Do you think that there is enough in the Bill to support all that you need to do for the Olympics?

Mary Macleod (Conservative, Brentford and Isleworth)

May I ask about the fines for the Olympic route if there is an extra lane for Olympic traffic? Can you give us some background on the thinking behind that? People are probably content about having a special lane, but some are worried about the levels of fines that might be levied on innocent residents or people who are travelling at that time.

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

Thank you for what you have said, Mr Emmerson. You have described the Bill as very sensible and you have said that it has filled important gaps. Are there any gaps that we still have not filled? In particular, are you confident that we have sufficient powers, or that sufficient powers will be given to the right people, to deal with freight vehicles on our roads that are delivering to keep our city running smoothly?

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

Indeed.

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

Mr Emmerson, that is very helpful, but may I inform you that the deadline for tabling amendments for Committee stage is fast approaching? Mr Amess, I think it is this evening.

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

It was yesterday, I am afraid to say, so there is no opportunity at all.

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

So it is more than fast approaching. But of course there are procedures that we could adopt. Is TfL in discussion with both the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the Department for Transport about how we resolve the problem—if we decide that we wish to resolve it—that you are describing, in terms of the legislative procedure that you would need to follow?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

To follow on from Mr Foster’s point, there are some very special circumstances under which we might be able to select an amendment but we would have to do so very soon.

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

Or indeed on Report, Mr Amess. That would be one possibility.

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

May I just leave you with the thought that it is not for me to determine whether or not this is an issue that must be addressed or not? It is beyond my pay grade. Clearly, however, if everybody agrees that it should be raised, time is definitely not on our side. So can I urge you and your colleagues to work with both Departments to see if we can find a solution to it quickly?

Jo Johnson (Conservative, Orpington)

To follow on from points that have been raised just now, to what extent do you expect the Olympics to be a catalyst for a structural shift away from car usage in the capital, encouraging more sustained use of public transport? In other words, how can we use the Olympics as a means of changing behaviours in a sustainable way?

Jo Johnson (Conservative, Orpington)

Are you anticipating a 100% bounce-back from the 30% decline in car usage that you are expecting in August next year? Do you expect car usage to go back to where it would be normally—100%—or do you expect there to be a gradual bounce-back?

John Cryer (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

You might not be able to answer this question in detail, but on the issue of offering a variety of transport modes what sort of thought has been given to offering river transport? I know that we have the Woolwich ferry and there are various riverbus services, but will there be any increase in that type of transport?

John Cryer (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

It is being looked at?

John Cryer (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

All right. I just want to make the point that if someone comes from, say, Kent or Sussex they will tend to go around the M25—if they are travelling by car, obviously—and then through east London, one way or another. If you are able to go to south London and then get on some sort of riverbus service, it will take the pressure off the roads in the east end an awful lot.

Hugh Robertson (Conservative, Faversham and Mid Kent)

It might be worth adding that for anybody travelling from Kent to Sussex, by far the most efficient way of doing it would be to drive to Ebbsfleet and then catch the return leg of the Javelin train that runs from King’s Cross through Stratford to Ebbsfleet, turns around and goes back again. That particular group are the last people who should be clogging up the roads in the east end, because they will have the Javelin train to use.

John Cryer (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Some of them will be, though.

Mary Macleod (Conservative, Brentford and Isleworth)

Mr Emmerson, are there any plans at the moment to extend the Mayor’s cycle scheme for the Olympics? Also, has any thought been put into how to make cycling safer across London during the Olympics?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Are there any other questions, colleagues? On behalf of the Committee, thank you very much indeed, Mr Emmerson, for the time that you have spent with us. It is useful to have your evidence when we start consideration in Committee on Thursday morning.

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Welcome, Mr Allison. The Committee is greatly looking forward to receiving your evidence. Would you mind formally introducing yourself and making some brief comments about the Bill?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

My friend, Sharon Hodgson, who has taken a great interest in ticket touting, will come in with a number of detailed questions on this.

I will begin by thanking Chris Allison for the really excellent leadership that you are providing for the Olympic team. We all appreciate that very much indeed. I wondered if I could just focus on serious and organised crime, of which ticket touting is obviously a manifestation. Like Chris Allison, I was also in Vancouver, looking specifically at the risks of trafficking and the sexual exploitation of young men and women at a large sporting event. I must say that, having concluded some 10 meetings during my time there, I was impressed by the rigour with which they approached this. Given that we want to ensure that any serious organised crime, such as ticket touting, is not part of our Olympics, I wonder, Mr Amess, whether I could tax your patience a little bit by first asking Mr Allison what he thinks the lessons of Vancouver were. I would be happy to share with him the quite detailed research that I did. Secondly, I want to ask what he judges the risk to be. Thirdly, what is the capacity of the preventive teams to provide an early alert to an increase in the proliferation of sex workers or, indeed, any evidence of trafficking?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Those are very much the conclusions that have been shared with me by the various NGOs, and there are two important points. One is that we do not want to create a problem, or appear to create a problem, for which there is not evidence. Also, it was the level of vigilance, and the anticipation that there could be a problem, that meant that Vancouver passed off in the way that it did. Of course we hope that our games also will.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

A final question on touting, and on Chris Allison’s assessment of the threshold at which the level of fine becomes a deterrent to those who want to get involved in this serious criminal activity. Can we provide any protection at all against fraudulent internet sites?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Colleagues, I know those exchanges were a bit wide of the Bill, but I thought it was too good an opportunity to miss. This session lasts until 5.30 pm, and I want to call everyone, so I would like everyone who wants to ask a question to bear that in mind.

Mike Freer (Conservative, Finchley and Golders Green)

Back on to ticket touting. You described a scrum of ticket touts, which seemed to be dealt with by a scrum of police officers. What percentage of outer London boroughs’ resources will be taken from the other boroughs, and drafted in to Olympic work?

Mike Freer (Conservative, Finchley and Golders Green)

To press home the matter, are you saying that the outer London boroughs—

Mike Freer (Conservative, Finchley and Golders Green)

I appreciate that it is nicely equalised across the year as a percentage but, during the 30 days of the Olympic period, what percentage will the boroughs see their normal police operation officers reduced by?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

As hon. Members will know, the whole area of ticket touting is a passion of mine. Specifically with regard to the Olympics, I would like to tease out of you some answers that I hope will be helpful in considering the wider issues surrounding ticket touting. In your opinion, who are the potential touts? You say that Operation Podium has already seen some of those touts arrested. Are they people who have just set up in business with an eye on the Olympics or are they already criminal organised gangs? I will leave you to answer that first.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

So you have evidence that serious and organised criminality already exists with regard to other major events. I am not talking about the Olympics.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Without giving away anything operational, what are the other live and sporting events in which you are aware of serious organised criminality at the moment?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

This is the small fry? You are talking about the big ones.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Take That gigs?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

So in your humble and very expert opinion—

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Would you see merit in extending such legislation to other events?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Can you put a figure on it?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

I have heard an estimate of £1 billion. Would that be far off the mark?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

I will bring my remarks back to the Bill.

The question of selling tickets to family and friends at face value came up on Second Reading. An exchange network will be set up next year through which people can sell their tickets back so that they can be sold on to people at face value, which I totally support—I think that we should have such a system across the board for everything. People will be allowed to sell at face value to family and friends, but do you think that that will be open to abuse?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

How can you be sure that they will sell it at face value?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

And you feel that the level of £20,000 will be sufficient to deter.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Joe Cohen from Seatwave, which is a site that sells secondary tickets, has said:

“So if anyone has a 100 meter final ticket to sell, they are going to sell it on the black market. They are not going to sell it for 750 pounds if it’s worth 5,000 pounds. The tickets will find a buyer who is willing to pay the market price, regardless of what Locog wishes to do.”

If someone can sell a ticket for £5,000 and get away with it, when the limit on the fine is £20,000, that might seem like a gamble that they wish to take. You mentioned the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, and we have tabled a probing amendment around that legislation. Would it be helpful to have the flexibility to use that legislation set out in the Bill, or is it unnecessary?

Mary Macleod (Conservative, Brentford and Isleworth)

Mr Allison, thank you for your detailed responses. I was also going to ask about whether the £20,000 for ticket touting was enough, but you have confirmed that, with all the other legislation available for you to use, you think that that will suffice.

I shall ask two quick questions, given that others probably want to speak. First, on terrorism, do you think that there may be an increased threat and, if so, is the Bill sufficient to ensure that we are covered? It might be that our current measures for terrorism are sufficient.

Secondly, in terms of traffic and road usage, and the enforcement of traffic conventions—the Metropolitan police tend to get pulled into that—is the Bill sufficient to support that over the Olympic time period?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Mr Allison has skilfully brought us back to the Bill. When colleagues ask questions, I wonder whether they can make them a tiny bit relevant to the Bill.

Lisa Nandy (Labour, Wigan)

Mr Allison, you have made the good case that raising the penalty for ticket touting would act as a deterrent for not only ticket touting, but other forms of organised crime, such as counterfeiting. For other organised criminal offences that are not so obviously linked to ticket touting—such as trafficking, about which you said that the link was less clear—are there any other powers that would be useful when you come into contact with these offences that are not currently in legislation?

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

I hope that I speak for all members of the Committee when I ask you to pass on our congratulations and thanks to the Operation Podium team, who have done a fabulous job. I am sure they have done more than we know about. The Bill states that we will raise the fine from £5,000 to £20,000. In response to other questions, you have already said that that is appropriate and proportionate. On Thursday, we will consider an amendment that would raise it to the much higher figure of £50,000. Is that inappropriate and disproportionate? Please comment.

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

Let me deal with ticket touting first. I attend sporting events every week and I run the gauntlet of the ticket touts. When I get home to my normal station at Wembley Park, if there is a concert on at the arena or the stadium, I run the gauntlet of ticket touts, even though I have no interest in attending the event. What will be different about the Olympics and how you will police it, because all that takes place when the police are within yards of the touts?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

In the next football season, can we look forward to police officers actually taking action against touts on the streets right outside the grounds in the way that you are describing as a means of starting to enforce this whole process?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

On a related subject, no doubt you will be pleased about the proposals in the Bill to relieve you of the responsibility of dealing with seized goods. However, one of the concerns raised this morning was that organised crime might become involved in counterfeiting goods, and might organise activity across London selling illegal or illicit goods that could need to be seized by trading standards officers or whoever is doing enforcement. How will the police get involved in that process as a result of the changes that are proposed?

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

One of the concerns aired this morning involved the resources available to deal with counterfeit goods and illicit trading. Given all the other competing pressures on the police force, where will the priority be? One of my concerns is that we will see people setting up street stalls outside tube stations across London and selling illicit goods, which might need prompt action to prevent people from being ripped off. Police resources will be stretched. What assurance can you give us that resources will be available to deal with that?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Before we finish this session, did any other colleagues want to ask questions? If there are no further questions, Mr Allison, do you think that the Committee has covered every possibility in terms of the evidence that you can share with us? Do you want to make any final remarks?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

On behalf of the Committee, thank you very much for the time that you have spent with us and the evidence that you have given us.

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Minister, welcome. Would you kindly introduce yourself formally and then make some opening remarks about the Bill?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Colleagues, who would like to ask the first question? Tessa Jowell.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I think that I might have had my ration. Just one quick question: does the Minister consider that this is the end of the business of further legislation, or are there circumstances in which it might be necessary?

Mary Macleod (Conservative, Brentford and Isleworth)

Minister, the witnesses we have received so far all seem to have been supportive of what is in the Bill. I want to get some background from you. When you looked across at other hosting countries, what were the lessons learned that made you decide on some of things in the Bill?

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Mrs Hodgson?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

During our many very fruitful exchanges on this subject over many months now—

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

What subject?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

The subject of ticket touting. During those exchanges, I found one of your answers to be very helpful. You said that it was a prerequisite to get the games that we did something to control ticket touting. I am very pleased that we are doing something to control it. It was in the original Act, and after hearing evidence from the Metropolitan police you have brought forward the legislation to increase the fine for ticket touting. I just want to add that I hope that trend will continue when we move into other areas during what will no doubt be our future debates on ticket touting.

The one point that I want to tease out a bit further concerns selling tickets on to family and friends at face value. I know that that is probably the small fry end of touting and not the serious and organised crime end, which obviously the legislation is there to tackle. However, I have concerns that people who will not have realised that this legislation was even on the statute book at the level of a £5,000 fine, or who do not realise that the fine is now up to £20,000, will currently be in the process of buying their tickets, which they probably thought they were going to sell on at inflated prices. There will probably be people who have bought tickets thinking, “Oh well, I’ll sell them to my mates down the pub,” without realising that there was any criminality or wrong-doing in that, because they currently do it when they buy tickets to whatever event they might go to and their friends are always very happy that they have done so, because they put the money up front, pay perhaps six months in advance and their friends buy the tickets at the last minute if they want to go to the event. That goes on.

For those people, they will obviously be allowed to sell tickets supposedly at face value. I suppose that the only way that anybody would know is if somebody tells the police. I wonder whether you think that that will be a problem. So, somebody has bought a ticket for £300 and they go down the pub and they say to their mate, “You can have this for £400,” then somebody else says, “Actually, I’ll give you £500,” and somebody else says, “Opening ceremony? I’ll give you £2,000”. Do you know what I mean? It becomes a little bidding war in the pub that the person never intended, but they have therefore fallen foul of the law totally unintentionally and somebody could overhear that conversation, get in touch with the police and that person could be hauled in. Do you think that that will be a problem, or should we not worry about it?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Washington and Sunderland West)

Do you see anybody who perhaps finds themselves in that situation in the pub being brought before the police?

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

Minister, you describe this as a minor, technical Bill, so I hope you will not mind if I ask you an incredibly minor, technical question that arises from evidence we heard earlier today. We are told that by transferring responsibility for both storing and dealing with confiscated items, there will be a net saving of £55,000 to the public purse and a very precise £22,000 additional cost to the ODA. Please will you explain how that figure was arrived at, and does it include both storage and the handing back of items under the legislation, or only one or neither of those matters?

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

Thank you, Minister.

Bob Blackman (Conservative, Harrow East)

The legislation is reasonably vague about what goods will be allowed and what will not. May we be clear about what publicity will be given nearer to the time, so that traders of all descriptions will not innocently walk into a trap about the goods they sell both near to the games venues and elsewhere?

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

I would like to follow that up and to support the Minister in what he has said. I confess to the Committee that I have been guilty of a breach of that very legislation in respect of advertising. I assure the Committee that it was handled very sensitively. I was politely told off and told not to do it again, and I have not subsequently done so. Those things are handled well.

Sir David Amess (Conservative, Southend West)

Splendid. If there are no further questions from the Committee, we will meet again at 9 am on Thursday in Committee Room 9.