Education Bill
Public Bill Committee, 3 March 2011.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you, witnesses, for coming. We will now hear oral evidence from the Association of Learning Providers, the 157 Group, the Sixth Form Colleges’ Forum, the Association of Colleges, and Sir Mike Tomlinson. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill—ish—and that we must stick strictly to the timings in the programme motion. I hope that I do not have to interrupt mid-sentence, but will do so if I need to. May I also say to the panel that there are six of you, and we have 55 minutes in which to ask questions, so colleagues will direct their questions only to two named members of the panel? If we have all six of you answering questions, we will get nowhere.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Thank you, Chairman, and welcome witnesses. May I direct this to Frank and Martin? Reading your publications, gentlemen, I know that you “welcome the Government’s plans for ecologists”, that you are “immensely encouraged by announcements on apprenticeships”, and so on and so forth. How do you believe that the freedoms that we are giving colleges in this Bill will help you to deliver the Government’s ambition plan for apprenticeships?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
One further follow-up, and perhaps I can mix it up a bit, Chairman, because I don’t want to leave anyone out. Graham might want to comment, and another panel member of choice—
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
It has to be a different question, not the same question.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
It will be a different question. Independent learning providers obviously play a key role in this too, and they will enjoy similar freedoms. The Government’s aims, which I first set out in a speech at Frank’s college some five or six years ago, is to create a more responsive system—the kind of thing Lord Leitch and Andrew Foster speak about in the reports commissioned by the previous Government. How do you think the sector will be able to be more responsive to both learner choice and employer demand as a result of this Bill?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Mike, I am quite an admirer of your work on this subject. How far do you feel that creating a better relationship between schools, colleges and other providers will facilitate exactly what Graham has just described?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
May I continue with Martin and David my line of questioning in the first sitting to heads of academies, particularly with regard to clauses 51 and 52, which extend academy status to 16 to 19 providers? What weaknesses does the provision address? How does it add value? Do you think that it is a good or a bad thing? Is not there enough choice in the 16 to 19 market anyway? What are your views on those particular clauses?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
With your permission, Mr Walker, I think that the Wolf review, which will be published in about an hour’s time, is within the scope of the Bill, and I hope that I can mention that and ask Sir Mike and Frank about it. You might have only heard what was on the “Today” programme about the Wolf review, but it is relevant to the clauses in the Bill relating to 16 to 19-year-olds. Frank, I am particularly interested in the comment in your written submission that:
“Views on the Bill…Devaluing vocational qualifications unintentionally.”
How do you think that the Wolf review will add to the quality of standards for 16 to 19-year-olds?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Right, I am now going to go to Mr Brennan. As Chair, I am quite keen to hear what Sue Whitham has to say—to remind colleagues that we have six panellists.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
I just wanted to ask Martin Doel about the apprenticeship guarantee and its withdrawal. It was intended, obviously, to give the system a bit of a poke, and to put a bit of stick in there for driving apprenticeship availability. By taking it away, is there any danger that the system will lose a bit of that poke?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
On the basis of whether legislation should be for sending signals or not—a little bit of a debate in this Committee—I want to ask a question of Frank, as a practitioner perhaps, but Sue might want to comment, because we have not had an opportunity to bring her in yet, and I apologise for that. Are you aware of the provisions in the Bill around discipline in further education colleges? Is almost identical provision in legislation around search powers and so on appropriate for further education colleges, which are all-age institutions, and for their teaching staff? Such provision includes being able to confiscate an electronic device from a student, to go through all the data on it and to delete that data before returning or disposing of the device—all provisions in the Bill. Do you have any concerns about the practicality of how the legislation is currently worded? We will need to scrutinise this, but my fear is that good headlines often make bad law.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Would there be any merit in introducing an upper age limit on the powers when you are dealing with educating older adults?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Should qualified further education teachers be able to teach in secondary schools?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Who are you addressing that to?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Who looks most enthusiastic? David?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Young people and parents do not realise that what someone described as a virtual satchel of cash is available for them at 16. They can use that up by taking certain courses, some of which lead on somewhere and some of which end up as cul-de-sacs. Yet they find themselves unable to access certain apprenticeships or courses because that money has been used up. Do you recognise that as a problem? Is there any indication that the Government have recognised it as such and are doing something about it? Is the Bill the opportunity to do so? I shall address that to Martin—you look least enthusiastic.
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
I want to ask Frank the same question. I think I am right in saying that if you have two 18-year-olds, and one has done a diploma and one has done an A-level, the diploma student has little money left in their virtual satchel to undertake certain courses, compared with the A-level student, who has a full satchel. That seems unjust. Is that your understanding, Frank?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
On that point I will indulge you, Mr Stuart, because I know you want to ask a quick supplementary, but I really want a short answer.
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
I was fooling you with my body language in suggesting that it was a supplementary. It was an entirely different question that I wanted to ask. Over to you, Chair.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Right. Julie Hilling.
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
I want to follow up on that and ask Mr Hoyle and Mr Doel what your current relationship is with the Connexions service. What effect do you see the Bill having on careers advice?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
Following on from that, you are talking about pre-16 careers guidance, but what about your role and responsibility in post-16 careers guidance, where students still need guidance about where they can go with the route they are on?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
Can somebody volunteer?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
I wanted to follow up on concerns that have been raised by panellists in their evidence regarding participation in further and higher education, and the impact that some of the changes both in the Bill and in a broader context might have. Frank, as somebody who trains many of my constituents from Walthamstow, could you say a little about the concerns that you set out regarding changes to the education maintenance allowance and the introduction of fees? Can you say how the fee system might work in further education for some of your pupils, and what you think is the right way to go about it?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
Martin, you made comments in your evidence about clauses 70 and 71, and the introduction of capping for part-time fees and the loan interest rates. Will you say something about how you think those things could be improved to deal with some of the problems that Frank was talking about, and about whether people will be able to participate given the financial constraints that they might be under?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
Regarding the proposals on participation, what would you like to see in the Bill to reflect some of your concerns? Are there any changes you would like to see in the proposals?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Can you address that to someone who has not spoken yet? Just one. Who would you like?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
I will ask Graham, because he is looking on edge.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Will someone who can contribute and who has not spoken, please help my colleague? Sue, is that in your line of work?
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
I have two quick questions. The first is addressed to Frank McLoughlin and Sue Whitham. The Government are committed to an all-age careers service. Would you welcome the suggestion that we move towards a more professional service that would be able to give good indications on the opportunities for children to follow vocational guidance, rather than the current system under Connexions, which talks more about lifestyle and is generic?
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
My second question is for Sue, again, and for Martin. In my area, everybody recognises that sixth-form colleges and further education colleges are among the most innovative of providers because of the freedoms that they were given some years ago. Do you feel that the Bill provides you with more freedoms to work more closely with local schools? In my constituency of Stevenage, the college is considering a proposal to provide the careers advice service for all the schools and the college, because it sees itself as part of the schools community network, and because it has some vocational courses. It wants to work with schools rather than compete against them. Do you think that the Bill gives you such opportunities?
Tessa Munt (Liberal Democrat, Wells)
I would like to address my question to Martin and to Sir Michael. I wanted to ask you briefly about what I see as being a conflict over the supply into colleges and sixth forms, where you have schools with sixth forms—clearly, funding follows pupils, so there is an interest in keeping hold of pupils. There is a concern, however, where schools are moving GCSEs into year 10 and starting students on A-level courses in year 11, and where there is not a meshing of the examining boards between the schools and local colleges. Therefore, you are trapping young people, or they are wasting a year—you are trapping them into the school because they need to carry on with the second year of their A-level in the lower sixth effectively, or they waste that year of extra tuition. I feel that that is something that will restrict subject choices severely, because often, schools do not offer the very broad spectrum of subjects that people can take, which eventually, will restrict life choices, job choices, and everything else. How do you see that being cured in some way?
Tessa Munt (Liberal Democrat, Wells)
Does that mean in some way sorting out the exam board so that they are broadly similar? Can there be that move across, or does it mean something else, because where funding follows pupils in order for schools to keep their staffing at the same level, they cannot lose those pupils to another provider?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Very briefly.
Tessa Munt (Liberal Democrat, Wells)
Where the college uses a different set of exam boards—so the school sets somebody off on an A-level course in XYZ direction, and the college only does ABC. Therefore there is a mismatch; you cannot transfer from year one to year two of your A-level in a different place. This needs extremely strong independent careers advice in schools, very early—
Tessa Munt (Liberal Democrat, Wells)
So that people understand the implications and probably just resist the temptation or the school’s direction to go on to—
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you very much. We have six minutes left and I have three colleagues who want to ask one brief question each. Iain Wright, John Hayes, then Julie Hilling.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
A brief question to Sir Mike. The Bill repeals the diploma entitlement—will that prove to be the death knell for diplomas?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Martin, you have spoken about the issues around funding, budget lines, and the capacity of colleges to move money around—indeed, the Bill gives them capacity to borrow as well as to invest. How important is that going to be to meet the new challenges that colleges will face?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
A question to Ms Whitham: what is the effect on the post-16 sector of the abolition of the School Support Staff Negotiating Body?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Clause 65 gives the Secretary of State the power to suspend the apprenticeship offer for up to two years. Given the change to a situation in which a person needs to have an employer prepared to offer them an apprenticeship in order to get one, can you see any purpose to this clause? If there is a young person with an employer who wants to pursue an apprenticeship, in what circumstances would it be necessary for the Secretary of State to suspend the apprenticeship offer?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Do you agree, Martin? Is it a hangover from the former legislation?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Any colleagues have any further questions?
Can I thank the panel for being short, sharp, concise and informed? We have got through a lot of business. Thank you very much.
We will now hear evidence from the Young People’s Learning Agency and wrap things up no later than 10.25.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I shall now allow the panel to have at you. Who would like to go first? The Minister.
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Welcome to the Committee, Mr Lauener, and thank you for taking the time out to give evidence about the Bill.
Do you think that it is right that the Secretary of State should seek to make himself more accountable for the functions that are currently carried out by the Young People’s Learning Agency which you lead?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
The Bill abolishes the YPLA and takes the functions and powers in-house, centralising them with the Secretary of State. Through discussions with the Department, are you required to reduce your head count prior to those powers going in-house?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Presumably the geographical coverage will remain broadly similar, so that people who have relationships with further education colleges, sixth forms and local authorities now will still have those relationships?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Finally, how are you dealing with the risk regarding capacity? You mentioned that there could be additional functions. I think that the Public Accounts Committee has asked questions about capacity. As we run up to the start of the new agency, will you take on additional staff? How are you dealing with that risk regarding capacity?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Following on from that comment, Peter, will people at colleges—sixth-form colleges and general FE colleges—think, “Hang on, we’re the poor relation here, because all the direction of travel seems to be towards academies and free schools, and that’s where the attention of the Secretary of State is and that’s where the attention of the new agency is.”?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
In an earlier session, a witness talked about the need to combine freedoms for schools with a moral purpose. As we get thousands more academies, what issues could arise about accountability for schools that might have the freedom but lack the moral purpose?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Are you confident that the direction of travel is right and will be able to cope with a massive increase in the number of institutions?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Do you feel a bit like an escaped prisoner who has been recaptured?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
What practical difference will it make to the institutions that your organisation exists to serve?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Will there be costs involved?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
How much have you estimated with your board and colleagues?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
So it will cost nothing and achieve nothing? That is a summation of what you have just said.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Are you sure that you have the knowledge and expertise to deal with the large expansion of academies and the responsibilities that that will bring to you?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Say no more. We know what that means in civil service language.
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
I may have a more friendly approach.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
We are old friends.
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
You have more than 30 years’ experience in the public sector. You took up this position just before the general election. As you mentioned a little earlier, the changes had been well heralded, so you must have had a perspective that they might be beneficial. How are changes in the YPLA going to be beneficial in the work that you need to do?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
You mentioned being a separate organisation and having a short line of communication. Would you characterise the change as a power grab by the Secretary of State?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
As a member of the Public Accounts Committee, my recollection of the concerns that we raised is very different from your interpretation of what it might mean for the Bill. To be clear, one of our concerns was about accountability for spending, and the Department was already overstretched in trying to deal with the academies. What do you think could be done to ensure that we as parliamentarians get value for money through the processes that will result from the Bill, given the concerns that were expressed in the report? The stern test was the fact that you were already struggling to deal with the academies that we have in this country.
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
There were also concerns that the Department was not capable of dealing with the question of value for money over the numbers it already had. This proposal will increase the numbers of organisations in that position. What can we do to address such concerns?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
But one of the concerns that we had, and one of the problems with some of the proposals in the Bill, is about the accountable officers and who will be held accountable if academies are not managing their budgets well. Some of the proposals will remove layers of accountability rather than increase them.
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
That is good, but in terms of the Bill, do you think that there is a case for delaying some proposals until the issues about financial accountability and about who—will it be you?--comes in front of us in the Public Accounts Committee in future if academies are set up under the proposals, which are not delivering on value for money or will it be someone else? The issues have not been resolved yet, have they?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
Every single academy, 400 and growing?
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
I do not envy your position, having to sit there on your own when we had six witnesses earlier. It must be quite intense for you. The Association of Learning Providers has given evidence that it welcomes the abolition of the Young People’s Learning Agency. It believes that it does a lot of duplication and is a waste of money. I do not want you to defend the statement, but I just wonder whether you can talk a bit more about what you think about the move to the education funding agency would provide in terms of creating more accountability.
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
Do you think that your organisation will become more accountable?
Sam Gyimah (Conservative, East Surrey)
I have a very brief question. I am trying to understand transferring powers and functions from one agency to another. From your experience, can you comment on the lessons you learnt when the YPLA inherited the functions of the Learning and Skills Council? Will you shed some light on that?
Sam Gyimah (Conservative, East Surrey)
Is it something that can be handled smoothly?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
The YPLA is currently regionalised. Will and should that regionalism continue?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
What would be the benefits of regionalism? You talked about the closeness to academies. What would be lost if there was no regional structure?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Is there not something intrinsically more risky about making a primary school into an academy? They tend to have governing bodies that tend to be less strategic, be smaller, or be a long way from the sophisticated FE colleges with which you do business. Is there a risk of you ending up with hundreds or thousands of primary schools as academies? How would you cope if a lot of them went into financial difficulties because they were incapable of managing? Who would go in and support them in the way that local authorities do now?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
You would like to see large, sophisticated chains, but there is no guarantee that there will not be hundreds or thousands of small primary schools linked to no one else. Is that not a risk?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Welcome, witnesses. Thank you for coming this afternoon.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Gentlemen, thank you for coming. Welcome. It is always a pleasure to see you. As you know, the Government are committed to improving the higher education funding system to make it more sustainable and more affordable for the taxpayer. Do you think that the clause in the Bill, taken together with the wider range of changes, would achieve that?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
I will pick up on that point. Before I do, on Les’s point, would it be fair to say that you argue that the part-time provisions you described are a critical means of broadening access because part-time learners are typically drawn from a different cohort? Steve, is sustainability to some degree about repayment rates and the degree of repayment? In making the system as progressive as we have, in line with Lord Browne’s criticism of the existing model, do you argue that we have risked sustainability?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Why do you think the Government are using RPI as a basis for assessing inflation when for every other model they use at the moment for assessing price rising uses they use CPI?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
That is quite a serious point.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
We have talked much about the model’s sustainability. But when a young person or potential undergraduate considers university fee levels and interest rates, when setting fees—there has recently been talk about Exeter doing so—are universities looking at the round in terms of general issues about sustainability and students’ experience?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
The Bill abolishes the TDA. What impact will that have on teaching standards in this country?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
I hope you will indulge me in placing on record my personal thanks and admiration to Professor Les Ebdon for the outstanding work he does as vice-chancellor of the university of Bedfordshire, which has a campus in my constituency.
Many students come to be trained as teachers on that campus. You have talked a little bit about context, but there is a wider context: the push to more academies and the overall funding for teacher training. Do you have concerns, in that wider context, for how and whether we are going to get a good supply of excellent teachers for the next cohort of students?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
On a slightly different topic, there is a lot of talk about access for students to various universities, fee setting and perhaps setting penalties or charges for efforts that universities do or do not make on access for children who otherwise would never get a place. There is often a focus on Oxford and Cambridge, but are there implications for other universities that may implement such penalties on access?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
You mentioned, Professor Smith, the income tax you were paying in 1976. Of course, you would have been paying VAT at 8% and been able to claim the dole in the vacations, so it was slightly different in those days. Professor Ebdon said that an average student would owe £40,474 at the end under this system. On top of that, the interest over the course of their repayment would have to be calculated as well. Professor Smith, in taking your decision to charge £9,000 at Exeter, have you calculated the total amount a student would have to pay back for attending Exeter, if they paid their loans back in full, on the assumption of a moderate rate of interest of 2.5% a year?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
But that is not an answer to my question. My question was: what estimate have you made of how much a student, assuming they paid back the full amount, would pay back over their lifetime if they attended Exeter university?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Do you have a range?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Professor Ebdon was able to give us a figure of £40,474 plus interest. Could you give us a range, so that we have some idea of what a student earning sufficiently would pay back?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
With all due respect, that is not what I asked. You seem to be suggesting that no one will pay back.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
How much will they pay back? What is the likely range?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Professor Smith, could you provide the Committee by Monday with the necessary information, so that we do not spend the next 10 minutes discussing this?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Do you have any calculation, Professor Ebdon, regarding my question about what happens if someone is subject to a £9,000 charge?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Very briefly, could both of you confirm that you would welcome the Government accepting an amendment to the Bill to allow parliamentary scrutiny of the interest rate being set for loans into the future?
Sam Gyimah (Conservative, East Surrey)
This week GlaxoSmithKline and KPMG both announced that they will be paying back the student loans of the graduates they take on. Do you see this as a continuing development from corporate in the higher education sector?
Sam Gyimah (Conservative, East Surrey)
If some students were able to pay fees up front, meaning that they did not take subsidised loans, would that not free up space for other students who may not be able to go to university?
Sam Gyimah (Conservative, East Surrey)
Obviously, we want to widen participation. If some people were able to pay up front, allowing us to widen participation as a result, would you still be against it?
Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)
Does Universities UK assume that that the devolved territories will, sooner or later, all follow the path that is set out in this Bill on student finance? If the devolved territories do not, and go for different fee levels themselves, will they find themselves under pressure to say that they only support those fee levels in universities outside their jurisdictions to that same rate? Do you see any impact on student mobility in the UK?
Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)
Just to follow on from that. If university fees are supported by the Northern Ireland Assembly to the tune of £6,000, or something approaching that, for students at colleges in Northern Ireland, there will be pressure on the Northern Ireland Assembly to say that it will only be to that same rate that they would support student fees anywhere. What impact will that have on student mobility, if that happens?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Can I take you back, Professor Smith, to the subject of school-centred training and universities? I know that Ofsted took its line, but the “Good Teacher Training Guide 2010” suggested that school-centred training was more likely to be of a higher quality than university training centres. The guide said that if you took the top 10 school-centred initial teacher training centres, only two universities would make it into the top 10 on the basis of schools. That was Cambridge in first place and Oxford in fourth. All of the other places were taken by SCITTs. Can you help the Committee understand what the story is with SCITTs and university training?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
My understanding from Professor Smith is that there is a higher percentage of top-rated SCITTs than there are of university training centres.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you for joining us.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Welcome, gentlemen, we appreciate you coming. I want to address my first question to Shane. I think you and I have a shared view on raising the status and profile of further education, celebrating its success and helping it to grow. We are also both interested in the learner voice in further education and higher education. Can you give me some examples of best practice that is out there, that we can learn from and build on?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
I wonder whether the way of doing that might be through looking more broadly at governance. What are your views on how we can work with yourselves and representatives from the sector to build a model of governance which is highly consultative? If we are to move to a more demand-driven system, learner demand and the learner voice are critical. Is that something that you would be interested in being involved in? Is that a way forward along the lines that you have described?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
But you welcome the freedoms and the status that we are trying to build around FE, I hope.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Why are you not welcoming the provisions on discipline in the Bill?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Professor West, we were talking to witnesses earlier about the changes made under the Bill and the impact that they will have on how much students will have to pay back. We were unable to ascertain a figure for the total sum that someone paying the full amount back would be likely to pay, if they were being charged £9,000 by Exeter university. Do you have a range of figures under the provisions of the Bill and the interest changes for what people might pay back during their working life if they were paying back the full amount?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Do you think that the Government should accept an amendment that would require more parliamentary scrutiny of the rate of interest?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Shane, do you think that provisions in the Bill regarding careers guidance and the emphasis on schools will allow pupils to make the right choice of further education?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
May I go on to ask about the curriculum and the specific reference to the repeal of the diploma entitlement? What impact do you think that that will have on student choice? I asked witnesses this morning about whether that would be the death knell of the diploma. What is your view?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
I would like to explore a little about advice and guidance that Iain raised. A part of what we are doing in the Bill is to ask schools to procure appropriate advice and guidance. Given what you said earlier, is it appropriate for us, in the guidance we offer around that, to insist that that is from a licensed provider and offers the kind of empiricism you call for?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
That is music to my ears. I have nothing more to add.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
I want to come to back to Shane, if I may, on the NUS’s concern about Muslim students and the impact of charging real rates of interest. What work have you done with Government Ministers to ensure that those very real concerns, which will hinder participation in education among the Muslim community, are addressed in terms of the wider fee regime?
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
Shane, do many of your members feel that university was the wrong choice for them now that they are there, about to finish their studies, and finding it difficult to achieve employment because their chosen course was not the best for the route in which they wanted to take their career? Going back to careers guidance, perhaps they were never given any real advice when they were 15 or 16, or the advice was more about lifestyle than professional guidance.
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
Professor West, do you find that there is a disenchantment from some students who feel that they followed a particular university course which they believe has not prepared them for the workplace? They have a good degree, but cannot get a good job.
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
I take from both your answers that you would appreciate a more professional careers guidance service. No doubt you welcome that part of the Bill where it is professionalised and people are given good options and advice. Reading some of Professor Wolf’s report, I notice that of the people who are following the vocational route, around half of them do not have a GCSE in maths and English. In the wider world, people tend to need a GCSE in maths and English to have a job. I just wonder whether you need a GCSE in maths and English to go to university.
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
But it is not a requirement to have an A to C?
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
That is a very good point. I am just wondering about something. If someone did not have that A to C grade in English and maths at GCSE, perhaps the chance to get that qualification should be offered to them as they were going through university, so that they could leave university with that qualification. I say that because I am very keen to reduce the gap between education and employability and we want to get rid of any barriers that stop people being able to get a job. I was the first generation in my family to go to university and effectively we are saying to these children, “Work hard at school, work hard at university and then try to get a job at the end of it”, but they almost feel betrayed that they get to the age of 21 or 22, having done everything that they were told to do, and they cannot get a job because they did not do something when they were 15 or 16.
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
I would be grateful if you could share the details of that programme with me.
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
Thank you very much.
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
May I continue to ask about vocational qualifications and other routes in? Regarding what feels like the downgrading of vocational qualifications, which is how they have been viewed by HE institutions, how do you see that in the future? Is there more emphasis on the academic qualifications rather than the vocational-type qualifications?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
You said that for far too long the FE sector has been subject to tinkering and that there is a need for a degree of stability. In that context, do you think that the Bill, which centralises a lot of powers and transfers a lot of powers from local authorities and various quangos to the Secretary of State, is a good or bad thing?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
I was interested in the university view on the vocational bit.
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
Let us consider funding and fees of the courses that are not the three years at university, but sandwich courses and courses where a person is getting a degree as part of an apprenticeship. What will be the effect of the changes on funding coming into the institutions and fees for students?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
A totally different area is anonymity. The Bill talks about anonymity in respect of any sort of accusation made against a teacher, misconduct or assault on a pupil. What is your view in terms of higher education and further education. Is there a need for anonymity for teachers, lecturers or support staff who are accused by students of that such activity?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
Is there a student view of that, as well?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
As you know, the Government are very committed to apprenticeships. As Alison Wolf said today:
“Conventional academic study encompasses only part of what the labour market values and demands: vocational education can offer different content, different skills, different forms of teaching.”
She endorses it very strongly. How will the additional freedoms we give to colleges enable them to embrace and make real that apprenticeships offer?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Alison Wolf also argues that we need a more employer-driven system in those terms. If what is offered is more closely mapped to employer demand, that will encourage the greater employer engagement that you seek.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
On widening participation—my great passion—how much is that about prior attainment, information and guidance and the things that we have discussed in terms of part time, and how much is about admissions?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Short answer.
Tessa Munt (Liberal Democrat, Wells)
I should like to concentrate a little on this issue of the price of courses and ask you what your view is about how much impact that will actually have on students choosing universities.
Tessa Munt (Liberal Democrat, Wells)
If you make the decision then to go to university, will you differentiate between a university that will charge £3,500, £6,000 or £9,000?
Tessa Munt (Liberal Democrat, Wells)
Thank you. I have a very strong sense of the fact that if you are offering something at £3,500, it is an inferior product. It might be perceived as an inferior product. Can I put that back to you briefly? Can you see the point that maybe if you are charging £9,000, you have got to be the best, and if you are charging £3,000, you might not be the best?
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
When we were in Government, obviously we introduced the £3,000 level. There was a great debate around whether we should charge £1,000, £2,000 or £3,000. In the end, virtually everybody went for £3,000. We found that the demand for places meant that it did not make a lot of difference and enrolments were still pretty high. My local university is the university of Central Lancashire and, despite the objections of the vice-chancellor and the student union at the time, it now admits that £3,000 was not a problem. This Government’s proposals have led to the tripling of the fees despite the fact that they say they want to widen participation. Can I ask both of you—Professor West has already touched on this—how conducive will the abolition of the EMA and the tripling of the fees be to widening participation?
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
On a point of order, Mr Walker. Could I ask the Minister to listen to the witness? That is why the witness is here.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Point of order made.
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
Prior to this Government coming into office, we had something like 43% of young people going into HE and we had a target to get more than 50% of young people going into HE. Obviously, our plans were rubbished by the then Opposition. We were told that people did not want Mickey Mouse courses any more and that people should not be going to university who were doing courses that were not needed by the economy, and 101 other reasons why more than 50% of young people should not be entitled to an education that many of us around this table today received. The figure was 43% when we left office. What do you think the figure will be in five years’ time, with the ending of the EMA and these tripled tuition fees?
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
You might be saying that the target of 50% was not ambitious enough and that it did not make that differentiation between university and HE. However, I am asking if that 50% target was the right direction of travel and what direction of travel do you think we will see now?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Shane, can I take you back to Oxford? Why do you think that Oxford has this record on BME entry?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
You said that it was not one thing, suggesting that you thought it was another thing.
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
That is not true then?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
That is how universities work. You have to get 3 As at A-level, excluding general studies, in order to qualify and there are only about 450 black students in this country who get those grades compared to 29,000 whites. That is the discrepancy and that is the scandal. It is a failure at school level, is it not? It is not a failure at university level, and you are making a false representation. You are not even coming forward with an argument. You are none the less smearing universities such as Oxford by suggesting that it is some in-built bias when there is no evidence for it.
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Would you both agree that it would be a helpful change if the Bill made it clear that careers guidance should explicitly give both vocational and academic routes to every young person, regardless of their academic standing?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
I have not yet had a chance to read the Wolf report, but my understanding is that it emphasises a core of academic study until the age of 16, which would militate in some ways against young apprenticeships at 14 and the rest of it. Do you think that that combined with the emphasis on the English baccalaureate could lead to the closing off of options that might be more suitable for some people, or is it a welcome move to ensure that every young person has access to an academic core all the way to 16?
Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)
This goes back to a question that I asked earlier about mobility. If fees are set at a different level in devolved territories, if those universities end up saying in a few years’ time, “We are losing out because we are not getting the same money in fees as our counterparts in England,” if there is natural pressure for fees to rise and if, as we heard in answer to earlier questions, universities will tend to price for prestige to the same amount, what market will exist in price terms?
Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)
Taking that point and looking to the future, if universities here are now setting fees at £9,000 and tending to bunch there, what force of gravity will prevent those fees from increasing in future, for exactly the same reasons that you have just given to justify the current levels?
Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)
On EMAs, you said earlier how other universities have perhaps not done as well as yours in encouraging wider participation. In your experience, how significant a factor have EMAs been in wider participation? Are you and Shane reassured in any way by the Government’s suggestion that it will be replaced by a narrower allowance? How do you think that narrower allowance could be more appropriately targeted, assuming that it could be?
Sam Gyimah (Conservative, East Surrey)
We have focused on price and its likely impact on access to university. If people had access to the employment rate, contact hours and drop-out rate for each course, how would it influence how students make decisions about courses and their ability to access higher education and university?
Sam Gyimah (Conservative, East Surrey)
Does it not force universities to justify the prices they are charging, rather than just pricing for prestige?
Sam Gyimah (Conservative, East Surrey)
My colleague Mark Hendrick mentioned that 43% of students are now going to university, which is a laudable achievement. How do you explain the gap between that and the figure of 20% youth unemployment?
Sam Gyimah (Conservative, East Surrey)
I think that our focus has been so much on access and price and not on getting the quality degrees that would get students jobs. That is what we should be looking at, as well as price.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you, panel.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I welcome our next panel. We have 45 minutes, so short questions and short, snappy answers, please. Do not feel that you have to answer every question; if a question is outside your area of expertise or you feel that it has been answered, let us move on.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Thank you, gentlemen, for coming. Do you agree that with this Bill the Government have responded effectively to criticism that part-time students have not always been dealt with as fairly as they might? How do you see that linking into the widening participation agenda, which is at the heart of the Government’s commitment to social mobility and social justice?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Could I just ask you to put the widening participation angle on that? Thank you for the welcome, and as you know, not least from speeches that I have given at the OU and Birkbeck, that I am very committed to the whole idea of a more modular approach to HE. How critical is that for getting widening participation right, and why, in terms of cohort? Perhaps you might say more about what we could do to match the rhythms and patterns of study to the rhythms and patterns of more kinds of people’s lives.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
I note the agreement about levelling the playing field, but I will be frank: I have no idea how it will work in practice. I do not understand how risky your business model would be in terms of part-time students. Can you shed any light on the eligibility for fee loans for part-time students, and when they start paying it back if they are in employment? There does not seem to be much meat on the bones. Do you have any more meat?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
That is an interesting point. Is that true for the Open university and New College Durham?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Mr Bean, you mentioned support for part-time students. The Browne review was quite scathing in many respects, and suggested that support for part-time students is not adequate or equivalent to that provided to their full-time counterparts. Is that a valid observation?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
We won’t do it.
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Do you think that the Bill and the policies set out in it will allow a more dynamic and flexible future for the provision of higher education? Could you describe what that might look like?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
It seems to me that we have been focusing on careers guidance and trying to make sure that vocational and academic routes are made available. Careers guidance needs to bear in mind part-time study, as well as vocational and so on. I think it is only about 4% of people who start an apprenticeship go on to HE at the moment. This Government is, in my view rightly, building on the previous Government’s efforts on apprenticeships and will take them forward. How do we ensure that apprenticeships can lead on to whatever level a person wants to reach?
Sam Gyimah (Conservative, East Surrey)
One thing I want to understand is this whole idea of levelling the playing field. Before we go there, can you explain to me how those on part-time courses, who are not funded by the employer, currently fund themselves?
Sam Gyimah (Conservative, East Surrey)
Presumably, there are some students who would use things such as the career development loan to fund part-time courses. Some take out commercial loans. In that context, the new regime, which is in this Bill, is a significant step forward to how people on part-time courses fund themselves at the moment? Am I right?
Sam Gyimah (Conservative, East Surrey)
The next thing is about the participation. Martin Bean, you made a comment about lots of your students being in their 30s and 40s. In the interests of widening participation, especially in an area in which fees are going up, how would you go about attracting students in the lower age groups, the 18 to 21 group?
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
On the earn and learn, the previous panel mentioned the fact that sandwich courses were beginning to die out. I am one of those people who, in the past, did a sandwich course and benefited greatly from it. The advantage was that you could earn money and that helped with your costs. Why have they died out when fees have been introduced and there is natural incentive to do such a course?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Perhaps I could direct this question to Professor Latchman in particular. Would you welcome the Government accepting an amendment to the Bill requiring parliamentary scrutiny of the setting of the interest rate on student loans?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
That would be your answer too, would it?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
You have expressed concern, Mr Bean, on the position of part-time students who are already earning over £21,000, which is the repayment threshold for student loans, while they are studying. How would you recommend that these students be treated under the new system?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
That is a very helpful clarification. Can I just ask Mr Widdowson about the price of courses, which he mentioned earlier? If you were to make an estimate, what would be the FE rate of inflation that we can expect for courses, all things being equal, over the next couple of years?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Did you say a doubling?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
So we could expect an FE rate of inflation for courses, other things being equal, of 100%.
Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)
My question would be to Mr Widdowson again, based on his FE experience. On the provisions in the Bill on powers for members of staff in FE institutions to search students, do you see any issues with how those powers are provided? Would you have any apprehension that colleges or staff could face controversy or litigation either for the exercise of such powers, or, as often happens in my part of the world, Northern Ireland—where litigation is increasingly based on people being accused of dereliction—for not having exercised powers, in a way that led to a risk to someone?
Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)
Further to that, on the disciplinary powers in schools, the Bill makes reference to school rules, but there is no equivalent reference that I can see to college rules specifically in relation to the powers given here. The powers are basically given to staff. There is also a provision that in exercising those powers, people would have to have regard to the guidance issued by the Secretary of State. How often do you think the Secretary of State might issue guidance on such matters? Every time that there is controversy over a particular case or issue, will there not be demands for the Secretary of State to give a view on whether what happened at a particular college was consistent with the guidance issued?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
My question is at the other end of that and involves postgraduate education, whether that is masters, doctorates or professional qualifications after people have done their degree. Have you considered at all whether fees will have a detrimental effect on people continuing with their education?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
I do not know whether you do full-time professional qualifications post-graduation.
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
So you do not have courses where people cannot work until they have completed them?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
I wondered what your thoughts were on the tuition fees policy more widely. It seems that the policy Professor Smith laid out earlier has shortcomings, but not the ones that have been communicated to the public. In terms of access, lower-earning people should not be put off; they should be celebrating this new system. The question, rather, is whether it is sustainable and gives certainty to institutions such as yours. Do you have any thoughts on the issues of sustainability, access and social justice in relation to the tuition fee proposals?
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
On that point, you see universities marketing courses a bit like supermarkets market their goods, with loss leaders and some courses cross-subsidising other courses. They are selling it in that way in order to maximise income and keep the show on the road.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
This is a question targeted at John. By the way, I think my office has been in touch with your college today to arrange a visit.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
With glee?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
You will be familiar with the Foster report of some years ago which talked about a galaxy of oversight, inspection and so on. The measures in the Bill do two things. They lift colleges out of some of the statutory requirements that previously prevailed and they give them some new freedoms. How welcome are they?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
How much of that is about simplifying the funding? One of the complaints that I heard over the years in opposition—in the dark days before I came into the light of government—was that funding and funding mechanisms can sometimes inhibit the kind of discretion that you need to respond to learner choice and employer demand.
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Do you think that the end of the diploma entitlement is a regrettable move or a recognition of reality? What does the future hold?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Do you have any estimate of what you expect to happen to apprenticeship numbers for 16 to 18-year-olds in your area over the next couple of years?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
So will they go down?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I thank the panel for being very polished and informative in giving evidence. Thank you for joining us today.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Hello. We shall crack on; there is half an hour left, so I shall hand you over to the Minister. Can we have quick questions and quick answers?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
You know that the Government are committing resources, emphasis and status to apprenticeships. Do you welcome that?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
The recent national statistical first release shows growth in apprenticeships in every area and every age group, but what more can we do to support apprenticeships? Is it about frameworks, levels or employer engagement? How do we deal with those things?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
One small question in response. You talked about information, advice and guidance. You will know that there will be an all-age careers service from the autumn, and part of its purpose is to rebalance advice that is given so that it is more equal in respect of vocational options. Should sector skills councils, however, be given greater clarity about their role in primary legislation? Would an amendment to the Bill that defined the legal personality and the function of sector skills councils be welcomed?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Do you see this Bill as moving away from the previous Government’s approach to apprenticeships? Is it a different direction of travel?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
But, essentially, the previous Government revitalised apprenticeships by trebling them and doubling the number of completions. Apprenticeships really were revived.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Our parliamentary colleague, Catherine McKinnell, has brought forward a private Member’s Bill on linking public procurement with growing numbers of apprenticeships, and the Minister has been very positive towards it. It has not got through due to lack of parliamentary time, but would you welcome amendments to this Bill that would enact a lot of what Catherine tried to do on public procurement in her Bill?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
What needs to be done to increase the numbers of apprenticeships for 16 to 18-year-olds as opposed to, for example, for people over the age of 25?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
I just want to evolve that theme, if I may. There has been some commentary, both here and outside, saying that over the past few years, there has been over-concentration on university as the only way to go and a lack of focus on apprenticeships. Do you think that that is fair comment? Do you think that there is a need to herald and champion apprenticeships?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
So there was no over-focus on universities in the past. You do not think that is a fair comment?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
I have a second question on apprenticeships and small businesses. I was heartened to hear you say that small businesses are very active in taking on apprentices, because I assume that there is a quite a lot of burden on small businesses with limited overheads when managing people through apprenticeship programmes. Could you talk a bit about some of the practical problems that small and medium-sized businesses might encounter in keeping apprentices? What can be done to smooth that further? Could skills based on entrepreneurship and setting up businesses be incorporated into apprenticeship training?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Do you think that programme-led apprenticeships were sometimes useful and that the Government urgently need to introduce some sort of course that helps to make people ready to start an apprenticeship proper?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
The Bill places what I view as a very welcome requirement on schools to bring in professional careers advice. Would you welcome it if that careers advice, when it is provided, offered information about both vocational and academic routes? Would you welcome it if that provision was explicitly in the Bill? Do you think that that might be helpful?
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
The 1980s and early 1990s saw the demise of traditional apprenticeships in many ways and the introduction of schemes such as YTS—the youth training scheme—and YOP—the youth opportunities programme. In my view, they were a poor substitute for apprenticeships. Now that there is cross-party agreement on the importance of apprenticeships in the 21st century for a modern industry, do you think that there is a role for the industry training boards, such as the construction industry training board, many of which were abolished in the past? Do you think that there is a role for more of them in the future in providing more of the traditional longer-term apprenticeships, whereby firms made commitments to apprentices and offered them good prospects for the future?
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
In the past there was no software industry, nor any of the modern high-tech industries that we see today As newer industries come on, is there a way in which the old EITB could have a renaissance and apply to the newer industries?