Education Bill
Public Bill Committee, 1 March 2011.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I have a few preliminary announcements. Members may, if they wish, remove their jackets during Committee sittings. Will all Members ensure that mobile phones, pagers and so on are turned off or switched to silent mode during sittings? As a general rule, I and my fellow Chair do not intend to call starred amendments that have not been tabled with adequate notice. The required notice period in Public Bill Committees is three working days; therefore, amendments should be tabled by the rise of the House on Monday for consideration on Thursday, and by the rise of the House on Thursday for consideration on Tuesday. There is a money resolution in connection with the Bill, and copies are available in the room.
Not everyone is familiar with the process of taking oral evidence in Public Bill Committees, so it might help if I briefly explain how we will proceed. The Committee will first be asked to consider the programme motion on the amendment paper, for which debate is limited to half an hour. We will then proceed to a motion to report written evidence, and then a motion to permit the Committee to deliberate in private in advance of the oral evidence sessions. I hope that we can take that formally. Assuming that the latter of those motions is agreed to, the Committee will move into private session. Once the Committee has deliberated, the witnesses and members of the public will be invited back into the room and our oral evidence session will begin. If the Committee agrees to the programme motion, it will hear oral evidence this morning.
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
I beg to move,
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
The Minister described the programme motion as generous. I think it an adequate amount of time to give consideration to this important legislation. The Opposition are therefore happy to support it, and we look forward to constructive and thorough scrutiny of the Government’s policies.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Copies of memorandums that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I welcome our witnesses. You are down to finish at 11.45. A lot of Members want to ask you a lot of questions, so may I please request that no matter how loquacious you want to be in answering a question, you resist the temptation—short questions, short answers?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Thank you very much for agreeing to give evidence to this Bill Committee session. I wonder if each of you—because you are all involved with the academies movement—might say something about why the freedoms you have been given or have had in running an academy are so important. Perhaps you can also say something about the further removal of some of the bureaucratic impositions that have in the past applied to schools and academies, such as the requirement to have a SIP. What are your views about lifting those restrictions? Perhaps we could start with Mr Gibbons.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
I have just a few quick questions; I would like other colleagues to have a chance to get in. Do you think, then, that all schools should become academies?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Could you guarantee that within the legal framework for schools when going down that path?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
An independent school within the state system.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Do you think there is, or will ever be, a sufficient supply of that quality of leadership within education to be able to achieve that?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
But you agree that leaders are a mixed-ability group like any other.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
I have one more question. Patricia Sowter, you said in your views on the Bill that you had some concerns about arranging suitable alternative provision for permanently excluded pupils, particularly in primary schools. For the record, will you explain your concerns to the Committee?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Should academies have to commission independent careers advice? Is there a case for a statutory duty where the interests of the institution may differ from those of the pupil?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
To give an example, I have known schools that exclude further education colleges from their open evenings and from coming in and talking to pupils. I rarely meet a teacher who has set foot in a further education college. There are definite conflicts between the institutional interests of schools and the interests of the pupil. How do we ensure that pupils get access to genuine, across-the-board careers advice? Patricia?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
What about extending the statutory duty from maintained schools to academies, so that they, too, have to bring in independent advice?
Meg Munn (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
One aim of the Bill is to improve the framework for discipline within schools. I would like to hear, particularly from those who have been heads in secondary schools, quick comments about what you do to ensure good discipline, and about searching pupils and giving notice for detention.
Meg Munn (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
What about the specific issue of not having to give notice for detention? And what about male teachers being able to search female pupils, or female teachers searching male pupils, without anyone else being there? Would you do it?
Meg Munn (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
And notice for detention?
Meg Munn (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
What if the child had caring responsibilities that you were not aware of?
Meg Munn (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
My specific first question was about how you create good discipline, rather than necessarily looking at what is in the Bill. What are the basic measures that you have in place to ensure good discipline in the school?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
I have a couple of general questions about academies. The original legislation about academies was brought in by the previous Government. Do you see the Bill as a natural continuation of that, or is it a radical departure? Secondly, what is of most concern to parents is having a great teacher teaching their child. Will you tell us about your experience of academies and whether they have had an impact on enabling teachers to achieve their full potential?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
May I ask about clauses 51 and 52, which extend academy status to 16-to-19 provision? What are your views on the weaknesses that they address? What value do they add to the Bill? May I ask you to refer to three specific aspects of that? First, is not current provision perfectly adequate? There is a wide variety of choice—school sixth forms, sixth-form colleges and general and specialist further education. What happens, in terms of the threat to existing providers, if new entrants come in, or is that a secondary irrelevance? In broader terms, do you think 16-to-19 provision is inadequate at the moment, and that that is why the provisions in the Bill are essential?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Thank you for coming. I know Harris and Emmanuel well; I have visited both of them many times. Patricia spoke about the particular relationship between additional freedoms and being free from bureaucracy, and driving up standards. Iain has just asked you about participation, but what about the link to standards? Can you give us some particular examples, in addition to the ones Patricia offered on phonics, of the relationship between those additional freedoms and your desire to improve the offer?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
I have relatively recent experience of the impossibility—and I mean impossibility—of admitting children with special needs to academies. I know that each of you will tell me that that does not happen in your school, but parents and SEN groups will tell you that the practice is widespread, and more so in academies than in mainstream schools. If all good and outstanding schools are to become academies, does that not effectively close down good and outstanding schools to children with special needs?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
Is that not because academies are set up to take in the general population? Over time, however, statistics show that the number of children with special needs in academies decreases. I accept that in your four schools that does not happen, but you must accept that parents of children with special needs have these issues.
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
Do you not think that there is an issue about SEN and academies?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
If I were you, I would expect to get many letters as a result of today, from parents of children with SEN, and from SEN organisations.
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
Do you find that as academies you work more closely with local communities? Do you find, as Patricia mentioned earlier, a frustration that primary schools were not involved in the previous Education Bill as being allowed to become academic providers? Do you find that you work more closely with your primary school networks?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
You have talked about being able to vary national terms and conditions of teachers. Apart from that, I am interested in the specifics of what you can do as an academy, particularly in terms of teaching and learning, that you cannot do as a state school. It seems that a number of the things you have talked about are quite possible to do in the maintained sector. What specifically can you do in teaching and learning as an academy that you could not do as a maintained school?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
But who sets that culture, and why is that not changed, as it would be by a new head coming into a local authority school, for instance?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
On a point of clarification on the points Pat was making, how many tribunals have you had within your academies where people have challenged admissions policies, particularly around special educational needs? You say that would be subject to a tribunal. How many tribunals have you had?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
Is there a way of collating that information? I share Pat’s concerns that one of the things that we have seen in our area with academies is a lack of willingness to take children with special educational needs because of the additional costs of providing for those children.
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
But then you go to the tribunal stage. Bringing in academies is such a new process, so how are special educational needs tracked? Obviously the Bill includes some provision on admissions and makes some changes to the admissions process that will make it even harder for parents to mount a challenge. So you have no instances at all where people have brought tribunals against the schools that you work with?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
That is interesting. On the other question about working with the local authority, you have given us lots of examples where it has not been helpful, could you give us some examples of where it has helped?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
I appreciate you have examples like that, but where has working with local authorities been of benefit? I am trying to understand what has worked as well as what has not. I wonder whether you could focus on that side of the question.
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
You cannot think of any examples where working with local authorities has been of benefit?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
Taking the examples you have given, how can we ensure that they happen not just in pockets, but across the country? You have given examples of where having that co-operation has worked well, but how can we make that happen elsewhere?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
This is a slightly different question, though, is it not? You are talking about the partnerships you have been able to work with at a local level. If local authorities and councils are a bugbear, what about the police and safer schools partnerships? How can we maintain such relationships? We have a duty to look at not just your individual best practices, so how can we maintain such relationships across the board?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
But if you take away the duty to co-operate for well-being, which is the duty that has generated a lot of the partnerships that have made these things happen, how else can we maintain them?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
If I may interrupt, that was your last supplementary. Mr Hendrick wants to come in, and Sam Gyimah has waited a long time, so will get two questions as compensation for his patience.
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
Do you see local education authorities as unnecessary, desirable or essential? If you see them as desirable or essential, what role do you see them having, or what role would you like them to have, in the future?
Sam Gyimah (Conservative, East Surrey)
We have obviously focused quite a lot on the role of local authorities with academies. I would like you to shed some light on the role of parents. First, how critical is it? Secondly, becoming an academy is a step change in terms not only of your structure but of how you deliver education. What has the initial reaction of parents been, what challenges have you faced and what has the feedback been?
My second question concerns co-operation. How do you co-operate with other schools as academies, and what would you say to those schools that feel that if they became academies they will be pitted against each other?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
One of the things that we are determined to do, some of it through this Bill, is to reduce the bureaucratic burden on teachers. We are taking that seriously and there is a huge amount of work going on in the Department to streamline and simplify reams of guidance. Clause 18 abolishes the School Support Staff Negotiating Body. Clause 7 abolishes the GTCE. Clause 6 removes the statutory duty to enter into a behaviour and attendance partnership. Clause 50 abolishes the requirement for an academy to have specialist status. Can the witnesses comment on some of those reducing bureaucracy clauses?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
May we have short answers from the two of you please.
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
There is a fear that a number of children who are permanently excluded have unidentified special educational needs. Would you support regulations that would trigger an assessment if a child is repeatedly excluded for fixed periods or is seen as being at risk of permanent exclusion? Would that be a useful way of ensuring that children are assessed prior to any exclusion? I will ask Mike to respond.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
In answer to questions from Meg Munn, you said that you did not search pupils of the opposite sex without others being present, but can any of you give an example of a circumstance where it would be necessary or appropriate to do so, as is being introduced in the Bill?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Is that not already covered by the law on restraint that was clarified in the last Parliament?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Can you give a practical example of a circumstance that would not be covered by the current law on restraint, for example?
Meg Munn (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
What would be the possible circumstances? Where you wanted to get a knife, or whatever, from a child, surely you would take other action, rather than searching them.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
In my 10 years as a teacher, I could not imagine a circumstance in which I would use this power that is being introduced in the Bill as opposed to restraining the pupil appropriately. That is why I am interested to see if you can think of any examples.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you very much, panel. Thank you for your brevity. We have all been very self-restrained. May we have the next set of witnesses, please?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Thank you for coming to the Committee today to give evidence—it is very much appreciated. As well as reducing the bureaucratic burden on teachers in schools, one of the things we are determined to do is to shift the balance of authority in schools back to the teacher and the head teacher. We are determined to tackle the persistence of low level disruption and poor behaviour in our schools, as dealing with them is key to underpinning the raising of standards. In the Bill, we are bringing in new powers of search for things such as mobile phones and items banned by the school rules. We are also bringing in anonymity for teachers accused by pupils or their parents of something that might be criminal. I wonder if I could have the view of the two union representatives—the NAHT and the ASCL—on those two provisions.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
There seems to be a paradox between the rhetoric of Ministers—we have just heard Nick talk about freeing up teachers and ending bureaucracy—and the centralising aspects of the Bill towards the Secretary of State. I think your written submission, Brian, highlights that. Could you put on the record for the Committee what your main points of concern are in terms of the centralising aspects of the Bill? How will that hinder parents and pupils and the wider education sector in achieving their objectives?
Tessa Munt (Liberal Democrat, Wells)
I would like to focus on the fact that we recognise that parents need to have a full part in students’ education. I should like to know your views on 24-hour detention. I say that in the light particularly of rural students, who do not have a public bus service on which they can rely and must therefore depend on school transport. Many parents will have access to e-mail or at least to a mobile phone, so an e-mail or a text could be sent. I should like your views on that.
The second thing I want to ask about is students and searching students. How do you envisage that training and support will be given to teachers and support staff who will be dealing with students on the autistic spectrum, who may have a real problem with touch? On mobile phones, in particular, what do you see being the consequences for students if they put something on YouTube or whatever?
Tessa Munt (Liberal Democrat, Wells)
So you are saying that it should be nominated staff who search students.
Tessa Munt (Liberal Democrat, Wells)
What do you feel about students having someone with them, as well as a member of staff?
Tessa Munt (Liberal Democrat, Wells)
Sorry, I am not talking about a staff witness. I am talking about a child’s choice of witness.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
You mentioned, Brian, that you would do a search only with another adult present, and in my experience as a teacher that is exactly the normal circumstances in which it would happen. Can you give us an example, because when a Government legislate to do something, it is important that it is practical, applicable, does not get teachers into trouble, and does not cause more problems than it was meant for, even if it wins a few good headlines about being tough on discipline? Can you give me an example of a circumstance when a power introduced in this Bill for a teacher—not just a member of senior staff—to conduct a search on a pupil of the opposite sex without witnesses present would be appropriate or necessary?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Do you think it is wise to have that clause in the Bill?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
You would be happy to see the clause—
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Just to be clear, the Bill introduces a right for any teacher to search a member of the opposite sex without a witness present. Is that something that the Bill should include in your opinion, for the record?
Dan Rogerson (Liberal Democrat, North Cornwall)
Good morning. This is just a little bit of an unhappy St. David’s day for you. On exclusions, what do you think about where the Bill seeks to strike the balance between the need to look at the issues of discipline that you have talked about, and the rights of children—I wanted to avoid the term “rights of children”, but we must acknowledge that—particularly with regard to the concerns that have been raised in evidence submissions for children with special educational needs, such as autism?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
I want to pick up on two areas. One is about school support staff and getting rid of the national negotiations. What are the positives and negatives of getting rid of the national body?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
The other area is careers guidance. We currently have Connexions, but that appears to be disappearing and being replaced by independent careers advice. What do you think the structure should be? Should there be a structure outside schools and, if so, what should it be?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Do you think that qualified further education college teachers should be able to teach in secondary schools, and, if so, why?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
I just wanted to follow up on your comments about dealing with exclusions and what you might do beforehand. What are your views on the Bill repealing the behaviour and attendance partnerships? Do you think that it will be a helpful move? What else could be put in place to deal with the early interventions you talked about before we get to the stage of exclusions being on the table?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
Are there any other aspects of the Bill that you fear may make it harder to deal with some of these issues before you get to the point where exclusions are on the table? In terms of co-operation among schools, are you concerned about the move towards greater numbers of academies in some areas and the removal of the relationship with the local authority?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
May I just remind you that we are not here to dissect the entire Bill?
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
Just two quick questions. First, can you tell us how you communicated with your members to discuss the content of the Bill? Secondly, on balance, would you say that they would welcome it?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Would any colleague who has not asked a question, or who feels that I was a little short with them, like to do so?
Gentleman, thank you for your brevity. That was an outstanding performance. We must move on to our next set of witnesses.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
You did very well.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you for coming. We will move straight on. The first question is from the Minister.
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Thank you, Mr Walker, and I thank all three gentlemen for taking part in the witness sessions. It is very much appreciated and I know that you are all very busy people.
I have two questions—one for Matt and David Pugh, and a separate one for David Smellie. The first is about the White Paper’s vision for local authorities as the champions of parents and pupils. Will Matt and Councillor David Pugh say something about how they see that working in practice? How can we make sure that there is enough capacity and that standards are high enough in local authority areas?
David, what is your view on the current performance management capability procedures? What problems do you, as an educational lawyer, foresee with the structure of those?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Matt, I was reading your submission to the Committee. It is quite critical of the Bill in a number of respects. Will you quickly sum up for us what you think is wrong with the Bill?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Has compulsion worked to increase co-operation partnership?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
I do not want a long or extended answer as you have given your concerns about the Bill in writing. I have one question for David Smellie. I notice from your biography that as well as advising schools on employment related matters, you are also an employment lawyer for staff and pupil disciplinary matters. The Bill introduces some interesting new powers for teachers such as the searching of pupils, and the confiscation of various items of contraband, including mobile phones, and the right to look at and delete the contents of those mobile devices. As a lawyer, could you give some sort of feel as to whether you think you will be making money out of cases arising from these clauses?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
As a lawyer, could you envisage any problems with examining the contents of the mobile phone of a 17-year-old pupil, for example, or even of an 18-year-old in a secondary school?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
I have two brief points of inquiry, particularly to Councillor Pugh and Matt. The first is about careers and Connexions. In the light of budget pressures in the local government sector at the moment, presumably local authorities are laying off Connexions staff. Given the delay between where we are now—we could be four weeks away from redundancies—and Royal Assent to the Bill and the establishment of the all-age careers service, do you think that there is a risk that we will not be able to get the infrastructure and professional expertise with respect to careers that the Bill wants?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
But you see this as an opportunity for local government. You do not see contained within other aspects of the Bill—it is essentially moving away from the local authority sector as part of the education family—
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
The second part of my question is about clause 69 raising the participation age, which is important but often overlooked. The Government have pledged to continue raising the participation age, but as part of the Bill, it is watered down immensely. Again, local authorities have other budgetary and strategic pressures. This is not important to you now, is it? That essentially means that raising the participation age in 2013 and 2015 will not happen. Is that a correct, fair and honest assessment?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Councillor, in terms of raising the participation age, have you got any comments about your assessment of what might happen?
Dan Rogerson (Liberal Democrat, North Cornwall)
I particularly want to ask Councillor Pugh about something in the LGA’s submission; it is about the role of LEA governors and provisions made under the Bill to allow governing bodies to look at their structure and the groups that they represent. Would you care to illustrate?
Meg Munn (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
One concern about the arrangements brought in by the previous Government for children’s services is that safeguarding and child protection matters would be lost because of the predominance of education issues. I would be interested to hear your views on safeguarding and how the local authority role is to proceed, given the likelihood of a greater number of academies and the concerns about child protection that arise as a result of changes made under the Bill, particularly on searching pupils and the removal of notice for detention.
Meg Munn (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
This issue was discussed with the last two sets of witnesses. Do you have a view about the advisability of teachers who are members of the opposite sex searching children or young people without another person being there?
Meg Munn (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
The other thing—someone gave the example of carers—is that I have a particular concern about young carers who may not necessarily be known to schools, for all sorts of reasons and despite schools’ best efforts. No-notice detention could put young carers in very difficult and vulnerable situations.
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
You have spoken of the necessity, in responding to the drive to increase participation to the age of 18, of an offer that is relevant. In those terms, how do you see the Government’s very strong commitment to apprenticeships? How do you see the local authority role for economic development and your role for young people in supporting that commitment?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
On a separate matter, you raised the subject of careers. I welcome your comments about the all-age careers service, and your points about its independence and the importance of creating more balanced advice. Of course, you know that local authorities retain their responsibility under the 2008 Act. How would you see that marrying with the new service? What are local authorities going to do to ensure that their responsibility for engagement, as defined in that Act, is married with the all-age service?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
I have two questions, and both relate to schools’ duty to co-operate with local authorities and with children’s trusts.
The first point is about the children’s trusts’ responsibility to improve well-being. Schools have taken that very seriously in recent years. There has been a significant rise in the number of child protection referrals to local authorities from schools and there has been a consequent reduction in the number of serious case reviews in the middle years—in those years between a child’s starting school and in year 8, where other risk factors become apparent.
My understanding—the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—is that the major reason behind removing the duty to co-operate relates to reducing the bureaucracy for schools. On the balance of reducing the bureaucracy for schools and the consequent knock-on effect for serious case reviews, where would you say that that balance lies?
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
My question is aimed at David Smellie. In response to a question from Kevin Brennan, you said that clarity in law was very important to make legal challenges less likely in future. On the question about teachers being able to search pupils of the opposite sex without another teacher being present, clearly representatives of head teachers, and, I think, Matt himself, said that that was a bad idea. Do you think that it is important, therefore, that that should be precluded in the legislation, so that such a bad practice would be less likely?
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
Can you give me an example of where you think it is appropriate for a teacher to search a pupil of the opposite sex without another colleague present?
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
That implies the pupil giving up the phone voluntarily. What if the pupil had the phone concealed?
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
Well you made the point about this being obviously a very lucrative area for lawyers if it is not laid out quite clearly what is allowable and what is not. You seem now to be hedging one way or another.
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
Do you think teachers are prepared to have the power to say “I’m allowed to search you,” rather than actually having to restrain the pupil? Do you think they would prefer to have the power to say “We can search you; you’ve got to hand over whatever it is you’ve got”—like a knife—as opposed to having to restrain that pupil?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Mr Smellie, you said you welcomed the provisions that would make performance management easier to carry out. Can you tell us what those provisions in the Bill are, how you think they will help, and whether there are any other changes that need to be made by the Government to ensure that teaching can be performance-managed as effectively as what someone—I do not know if it was you or someone else—earlier called the real world outside?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
The Secretary of State will keep a list of those who are guilty of serious misconduct. Should that list include those who have been removed for incompetence, particularly as so few actually are?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
It could be amended, conceivably, to include those who had been—
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
We heard earlier that powers are being introduced, which, although probably practically unusable in most circumstances, may send an important signal on discipline and behaviour. Is it possible that the removal of certain duties to co-operate, including the ones on safeguarding you mentioned earlier and those on admissions to schools, could also send a signal that might influence schools’ behaviour in the wrong way?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
My colleague, Ms Munn, was talking about a large proportion of schools in a local authority area becoming academies. I would like to ask Mr Dunkley a couple of questions about his members. What conflicts do you think there might be for directors of children’s services as increasing numbers of schools under their local authority move to become academies or free schools? Do you think that there is a risk that they might go through the processes in slow motion? What guidance or best practice do you issue to your members so that the transition can occur smoothly?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
I have a quick question for Councillor Pugh on a completely separate subject. Clause 59 makes provision for local authority owned land to be transferred. It essentially turns local authority assets that you might be holding for schools into assets to be sold off. I do not know whether you or your members have made an assessment of this and the impact it might have on the provision of school buildings either within the maintained sector or, indeed, on your book value.
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
So you would be against that power being taken away from you and the Secretary of State having the power to determine where that land goes and where the money goes. It says that it will go to the academies. It will be directly transferred.
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
You would like to see amendments.
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
The ADCS says that, because parents and the Secretary of State will be able to request an inspection, so should local authorities if they are to have this role as champions of local people and commissioner in chief. Do you agree with that view, David?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
But the question is whether local authorities should be able to trigger an inspection. Is the answer yes?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
If there are no further questions for the witnesses, that brings us to the end of our business for the morning.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you very much for joining us. You are our first panel. Can I make one request? Please keep your answers as short as possible, because we only have about 57 minutes maximum. Nick Gibb.
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
One of the witnesses to the inquiry into behaviour by the Select Committee on Education—Daisy Christodoulou, an ambassador for Teach First—said:
“It’s not particularly that I want to search a pupil’s bag, but if there is a law and the school has the power to do so, it sends a message. That’s what I like about it. That message does get through to kids, and it makes them think.”
Can I ask the panellists their views on the provisions in the Bill that extend powers to search things such as mobile phones and give teachers anonymity if they face accusations from pupils or their parents?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Thank you. By the way, I should have welcomed you all to the Committee. Thank you for taking time out of your busy lives to give evidence to us. It is very much appreciated. Liz, did you want to answer?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Alan, could you give an example of where it would be appropriate or necessary for a teacher to search a pupil of the opposite sex without anybody else present? That is what the Bill would do.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
I am not actually, because there is a clause in the Bill—
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
There is a clause to that effect, and presumably the Government have evidence that it is required, because otherwise they would not be putting it in the Bill.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
This search power only applies in circumstances where somebody is deemed to be causing an immediate danger to themselves or to others, where powers of restraint are obviously already available. On that point about school rules, all of us who have been involved over the years, as practitioners or Ministers, in trying to bring in law around behaviour are seeking to give the maximum appropriate powers possible to teachers and head teachers in order to have good behaviour and discipline in schools. Do you have any feeling that any of the provisions in the Bill are actually to send some kind of signal, whether it is to teachers or to tabloid headline writers, or are they real, practical powers that can be used? For example, in relation to the deletion of information from mobile devices that are held by pupils, is it properly a matter for school staff to examine and erase data from pupils’ mobile devices? Is it sensible for teachers to have more powers than police officers would have under those circumstances, for example?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Have you looked at the clauses in the Bill?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Which you can do now. You have all described that there is a necessity for search—I understand that, of course there is. That already exists in law. I am trying to find out the purpose of writing on to the face of a piece of legislation the specific provisions that the Government are intending in the Bill, and I am yet to find anyone who can really explain to me what the purpose of it is in practical terms in the daily lives of teachers dealing with students in our schools.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Finally, and this would be my main concern, which is not mainly to do with the pupils in this situation, but with the teachers and staff, is it possible that the specific provisions in the Bill could actually put teachers into a more difficult situation? I am directing this at Sir Alan, because you have done reviews on behaviour, discipline and so on. Might it potentially put teachers in a more difficult situation, if they are deleting material from people’s mobile devices without any recourse to the police, etc.?
Sam Gyimah (Conservative, East Surrey)
We are bogged down in that extreme situation. Is it helpful, from a teacher’s point of view, to know that a pupil of the opposite sex can misbehave knowing that the teacher cannot discipline them? In that context, giving teachers a lot of latitude is helpful, which is how the Bill is drafted.
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
You were saying that you cannot think of any instances. First, what about the matter of cyber-bullying? If someone filmed a happy-slapping incident on a mobile device, surely teachers would want the power to deal with it.
Secondly, you cannot think of an instance where somebody of the opposite sex would need to search a child. In primary schools, however, it tends to be that 90% of the teachers are female and a large number of the pupils are male. If, therefore, a primary school child picked something up that would put them in danger, would the teacher not want to be able to access that child instantly?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Liz, I know that your school is both successful and challenging. Technology changes, and hand-held technology does so rapidly. Is it not the case that the essence of the Bill’s purpose is to give greater discretion to schools to deal with that dynamic situation? Will not such additional discretion assist teachers and head teachers in dealing with that rapidly changing world?
Dan Rogerson (Liberal Democrat, North Cornwall)
Governments have always said, “We want to cut down on bureaucracy and free people up to do other things.” Certainly that is the Government’s intention in the Bill. What is your view on how well the Bill is a step in the right direction?
Dan Rogerson (Liberal Democrat, North Cornwall)
Wider than search and other such issues, the Bill seeks to remove the duties on schools, particularly on those schools that still have a relationship with the local authority, rather than those that are academies. Would you welcome that as giving you even more of an option in how you operate, rather than being quite so prescriptive?
Meg Munn (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
We have heard a lot about the importance of sending messages, and that has been generally welcomed. Along with your good selves, we have had other people in front of us today, who have obviously thought a lot about these issues and work in certain ways in their schools.
My concerns are about people who are not responsible, who do not do things well and who cause problems. We talk about teachers who do not perform and we know of teachers who have been prosecuted for sexual abuse and the like, so we know that those people unfortunately exist and have to be dealt with. We talked about search as an area in which we could be concerned that a teacher might not behave responsibly, and yet in law they would be allowed to do something that might be detrimental. We also have the issue of no notice detention, where somebody could give a child an immediate detention without any thought to their personal circumstances—they might be a young carer or subject to abuse at home.
While everybody obviously wants to signal that schools need to have authority, what should be in legislation and what should we do to ensure that we do not simply give carte blanche to anybody who sees this as a way to behave in a manner that none of us wants to see?
Meg Munn (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
So, every head is a really good head?
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
One of your predecessors, who was a witness earlier today, said that an immediate detention might be useful, as he put it, as a short, sharp shock. What is your response to that?
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
Sir Alan was shaking his head at that.
Stephen McPartland (Conservative, Stevenage)
Sir Alan, you mentioned a couple of things. One was that schools would not give notice, but I imagine that in reality most schools and teachers would contact one of the parents by mobile phone or e-mail and give them notice. You also made a point regarding restraint. I know that most teachers use that as the complete last resort—they all hate it, not only because of the impact on the child, but the impact on the rest of the class and on the teacher. Often, the teachers break down in tears afterwards, especially if it was a younger child who was in need of restraint because they have been threatening the safety of another child. Surely, the powers in the Bill are more permissive than prescriptive.
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
There is a fear that a number of children who are permanently excluded have an unidentified special educational need. Would you support regulations that triggered an assessment where a child is repeatedly excluded for a fixed time, or is at risk of permanent exclusion?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
One of the dangers, of course, is that we get the exceptional and excellent heads giving evidence to us. The people for whom we have to make regulations are the less exceptional heads on a less good day during the least high-performing year of their careers. It may seem impossible for any of you shining lights to imagine what it must be like to be in that position, but could you see a justification for a regulatory approach? This is generally a Bill that is talking about deregulation, but we are looking at the fact that so many children with unidentified special educational needs get excluded, and their life goes into downward spiral possibly because there has not been a trigger to process that need.
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
I know all of you believe that not only great teaching but an excellent curriculum are important to good discipline. We talked about incoherence earlier, but considering that we have a Bill that is trying to give greater freedom to heads to tailor what they do to suit better the needs of their pupils, does the English baccalaureate go in the right direction to support that, or in the wrong direction?
Tessa Munt (Liberal Democrat, Wells)
I want to follow on from what Graham said, and I hope that the moment has not passed. I am keen on the idea of having something that triggers some sort of assessment, be that 20 detentions in a year, a certain number of internal exclusions or the use of restraint more than once on any particular child or student. I feel that that might be relevant in some counties, where there is an absolute resistance to statementing children, for whatever reason—sometimes that is financial and sometimes that is a complete commitment to inclusion, which is not always appropriate. I am thinking particularly of young people with autism or on the autistic spectrum, and we need to have something that is an absolute safety net to catch those young people.
My other question, since undoubtedly I will not have another opportunity, is about the clarity of the school records. When a child moves on from one school to another, how much clarity is there in records of behaviour, discipline, achievement, attention and all those details of the young person moving from one place to another?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Can we please shorten the answers slightly, because of the number of Members wanting to get in?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
I am confused by some of the things that you have been saying. I want to ask a few questions to see if I can sort myself out. You have said that we need to be able to raise behavioural standards across the piece. We need to ensure that that goal is higher in head teachers’ agendas. However, you also seem to be saying that you can already do everything that is in this Bill. Do we need the provisions on behaviour that are in the Bill?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
You are talking about the behavioural issues in particular?
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
You’re focusing particularly on behaviour.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
The rhetoric of the Bill is all about autonomy, freedom and deregulation, but it seems to me that it is a very centralising Bill, particularly with regards to transferring powers and functions to the Secretary of State. Is that a fair assessment? If it is, how will that impact on your job as leading practitioners in the education sector?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
On a number of occasions you have mentioned an adjudicator. Trying to resolve things locally seems to have been bypassed in the Bill to give a direct route to the Secretary of State, which does not demonstrate localism or autonomy at all. What are your views on that?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
I want to follow up the point about how we deal with children who have special educational needs before things get to the stage of exclusion. In the early stage, there is the common assessment framework, for example. Will you talk a little more about what you think would work? All of us are concerned that those children are the ones who could fall through some of the gaps in the Bill. I take the point that you are concerned about legislating for a particular format of special educational needs, but is there a role— through the behaviour and attendance partnerships, for example, or through some of the relationships that you have had with local authorities and local public services when dealing with young people with those issues—that you would want us to reflect on when thinking about how we might improve some of the proposals?
Stella Creasy (Labour, Walthamstow)
I appreciate that work can be done in schools. My concern is to understand how some of the changes proposed in the Bill will affect your ability to access support to do some of that work, such as from partnerships that you might have with other schools in managing children, or with local public services, be those local police forces, local authorities or local health care services.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you very much, panel and colleagues.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you very much for coming. Obviously, it would be helpful if you could keep your answers short and to the point, which also goes for my colleagues’ questions. Will the Minister ask the first question?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Welcome, everybody. Thank you very much for taking the time to give evidence to the Committee. We appreciate it very much.
May I address my questions to Mary and Chris? The first part is for Mary in particular, but both of you can answer. As a Government, we are very clear that we want to raise standards of behaviour. It is one of the key parts of our education policy and, indeed, it is a driving force behind the Bill. We just heard from Michael Wilshaw that the Bill sends out a clear message about behaviour, and we heard the same thing from your colleagues in the NAHT and the ASCL this morning. Whatever you think of the details, that message about behaviour is sent out clearly.
Mary, what are the views of your membership about the provisions on search and the other powers in the Bill that will help teachers to improve behaviour? And Chris, what is your union’s view about the anonymity provisions that we are introducing in the Bill for teachers who are facing accusations? Mary may want to comment on that, too.
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Is that not to do with trying to stop cyber-bullying, which is a growing menace in this country?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Can I come back on that point? Do you as a union have evidence we can use on the non-teaching staff in schools, to enable us to satisfy ourselves that we would be compliant with the European Convention on Human Rights? If you have that evidence and can bring it forward, that would be extremely helpful. Do the unions have that sort of evidence?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I am going to call Kevin Brennan now. We have had 10 minutes and got through two panellists. You really must shorten your answers.
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
In a very quick-fire way then, as we have to scrutinise the Bill in Committee, could our witnesses give us an example of what they would like to see changed in the Bill or taken out?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
One other quick one.
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
What about clause 1?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
I shall try phrase my questions so that they have yes or no answers. I should like to focus on Ms Keates, if I may. In your submission on academies the hostility of the union towards academies comes through. On the Twitter page of the Local Schools Network it says:
“The Local Schools Network celebrates and supports local schools.”
Is an academy a local school?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
It is nice to have that clarification. Is any school that is not under the local authority a local school?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
For parents, if they send their kid to the school down the road, that is a local school, is it not?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
The Anti Academies Alliance website heralds that, at John Port school in Derbyshire, your members will strike for five days against the academy proposals. Is it correct for your members to hold strikes against plans to become an academy?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
Finally, many teachers have a passion for teaching and want to set up or get involved in academies, or even set up free schools. Do you think that those teachers should expect the same respect and regard as other teachers, or do you think that you should have a double standard?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
So you would not encourage any of your members to attack people—other teachers—who wanted to set up free schools, with personal attacks, doubting their integrity or anything like that?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Two very quick questions, and I would like all of the panel’s views, please. Clause 18 abolishes the School Support Staff Negotiating Body—Christina, you mentioned that earlier on. What impact will that have on your members?
My second question is on part 5 of the Bill, which changes the landscape for local authorities’ relationship with schools. Will that be a positive or a negative thing, with regards to raising standards and aspirations for young people, and to helping parents get what they want for their children’s education?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
Amanda, does clause 18 affect your members quite so much?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
The only sanction that the Secretary of State will have to deal with someone who is referred to him for misconduct will be to ban them from teaching. I have two questions arising from that. First, does the fact that the referral is just something that a governing body has to consider, but does not necessarily have to do, mean that this heavy sanction of loss of ability to teach is fundamentally unfair because it rests on the subjective decision of governing bodies as to whether to refer or not? Secondly, should the Secretary of State have some other sanction other than just the sanction of prohibition?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
The GTC had three-person panels, did it not?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
I am going to resist the temptation to ask a question about the character of the accountability of democratic policy within a unitary system of government and stick to a more straightforward path. I have two questions on the issue of false allegations.
Mary, you mentioned that you have surveyed your members on false allegations and that you welcome this aspect of the Bill. First, what is the trend like in these terms? Are such allegations becoming more frequent and is their character changing? What can we do about that in terms of provisions in the Bill?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
That is great. The second question relates to the point that was made about the greater powers of search and so on for teachers to deal with problems in the classroom. Is it fair to say that this has changed beyond recognition, because of the change in technology and the change in habits in respect of hand-held technology in particular? Circumstances that teachers face now are extraordinarily different to those that prevailed 10 years ago, five years ago or even two years ago. Is it not absolutely right that this dynamic circumstance requires a fresh approach?
John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)
Isn’t the backing about the school policy, and the school policy is dependent on the leadership of the school believing that they will backed beyond the school? My feeling is that the reason why we need to do this is to send out the powerful signal that the backing will not just come from the teachers—you know that I am a great champion of teachers—and will not just come from the school, but from beyond the school.
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
Moving on to the Qualifications and Curriculum Development Agency, what do you think would be lost in no longer having the QCDA as a national curriculum body? On the flip side of that, what concerns do you have that the Secretary of State has virtually unfettered powers to decide what is in and out of the national curriculum?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I am going to take a quick supplementary, which the final two panellists may answer, then I shall go to Dan Rogerson. I want quick questions and quick answers.
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
I am grateful, Mr Walker. Following on from Pat’s point about the abolition of the QCDA, a future Secretary of State might say, “I think that we should be teaching literal interpretations of the Bible and disregarding evolution.” Is there anything in the Bill to stop that happening?
Dan Rogerson (Liberal Democrat, North Cornwall)
To sum up the discussion we have just been having on centralising powers, as you put it, and the Secretary of State’s role, there are two groups of issues. One is what has happened with the local authority and the relationship there. The other is the issue of the quangos as Chris put it. Do you think there is an argument, particularly with regard to quangos, that putting the Secretary of State in charge makes it more accountable? As a local MP, one could challenge something the Secretary of State is doing. When it is a quango it is sometimes much harder for MPs to engage with someone and hold them accountable.
Dan Rogerson (Liberal Democrat, North Cornwall)
If the Government’s intention is to set out a basic curriculum but give more flexibility to professionals to build on that and to interpret and use it, that would be a better model than a very prescriptive one. Having been married to a teacher throughout the time of the previous Government, she would have argued, although she was not critical of everything that that Government did, that there was in fact a lot of micro-management in the previous set up. To characterise it in that sense does not ring true. I wondered whether, if the Government manage to achieve a slimmed-down curriculum entitlement, that would be the model we would want.
Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)
Back on the issues of behaviour and the interventions available—under the Bill, they will be available to individual teachers, rather than just the schools—you have obviously reflected on the possibility of judicial reviews when powers are used. Have you considered the possibility of judicial reviews taking place because powers have not been used? Somebody may be blaming the school or members of staff for something that happened inside or outside the school, which they say could have been prevented if the powers had been used.
Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)
I should just declare that although I have no financial relationship whatever with NASUWT now, I did work for it for a short period some time ago. The thrust of the Bill is about raising standards and improving outcomes for children and young people. That is the Government’s overarching aim. What effect will the Bill have on equality and social mobility for all children and young people?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I thank the panel for coming today. It is a shame that we had only an hour, but thank you very much for giving us your time.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
You are a very small and very short panel. You have 20 minutes, so can I have incredibly short answers and incredibly concise questions?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Welcome to the Committee. Thank you very much for taking time out to give evidence to this Committee—it is very much appreciated, as I know you are both very busy.
First, may I ask a question about the measures in the Bill to streamline the categories of Ofsted inspection? Could you both say a few words about that and how it will work in practice once you have worked out the details?
Secondly, I have a separate question about the “Reading by Six: how the best schools do it” report. I visited one of the schools in that report and was blown away by what I saw in the school. There was astonishingly high-quality teaching and reading throughout the school. By the time that they reach year 6, the children’s erudition and literacy—what they had read and their vocabulary—was better than I had seen in the later years of secondary education in other schools. Would you like to use this opportunity to say something about that report?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
From your inspections, do you think that behaviour in schools has improved in recent years, and what is your view of the specific proposals that are contained within the Bill on behaviour?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
I am sorry, but you did not answer the second part of my question, which was specifically about the clauses in the Bill that introduce new powers in relation to behaviour. Do you have any views on whether or not they will be effective?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
An earlier witness looked at the concept of the local school and whether that was a matter of geography or of ethos. Given that, do you believe that schools should contribute to the cohesion within the locality in which they are situated and the community which they serve? If they should, how do we judge that if not through Ofsted? How would we measure that?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
Do you think that is a good thing or a bad thing?
Pat Glass (Labour, North West Durham)
But if there is a situation where a school is located in a particular area, all of the children are bussed in from outside and it is not taking children from its local community, would that worry Ofsted?
Meg Munn (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
You will remember that when children’s services came together under the previous Government, there was some concern about losing a child protection focus, as opposed to education, just because of the size and the experience. Obviously, you have had a period of time now of looking at both of those. In respect of those four areas and behaviour and safety, how much of that do you see as being about safeguarding issues—the school playing its role within the area of safeguarding and being part of a local authority approach to that—particularly as there has been some concern expressed that a greater number of academies and more independent schools may feel fewer links to local authorities?
Meg Munn (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
That is part of it, and perhaps I will follow up on that before I move on to the whiney bit. You say you used to spend half a day and are going to spend less. What is it that you did that you are not going to do?
Meg Munn (Labour, Sheffield, Heeley)
My other point, just to give an example, is that you might find that you have a particular problem in an area with young girls not being in school, or being taken out of school for prostitution or trafficking and so on. We have had some in the press recently. Would you, for example, check whether, if that was an issue locally, the school was linked into local authority initiatives in the area? That is the kind of point I mean. At the moment, if you are a local authority school, there is probably a fairly good link, but if you are an academy, it would not necessarily be there. It may well be, but I am just asking whether that would be something that you would see the school as part of the safeguarding approach that has been taken in that area.
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
An employment lawyer told us earlier today that performance management processes are too slow and cumbersome. I think that most people welcome the narrower focus that you will have, with greater time in the classroom and focus on teaching quality. How will performance management processes be improved to ensure that appropriate action is taken following an inspection by yourselves?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
You will spend more time in your inspections in the classroom, and there is a sense that head teachers, even when they know that they have underperforming members of staff, do not take action because the capability procedure is so long, cumbersome and painful. How are we going to marry up an effective response, support and/or more draconian action as appropriate if you help identify underperformance within a school, which is, after all, I assume, the purpose of spending more time in the classroom?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Can I ask you specifically about the performance management processes? The common understanding, and that of lawyers, is that it can take 18 months or three years to deal with a teacher who is underperforming in the classroom and in whose classroom children are not learning. I do not want to get into the whole “Are you a regulator or are you an improvement mechanism?” debate, but what is your view on performance management processes in our schools at the moment, and what can be done to make them more effective where performance needs to be challenged?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
That is why I am asking you about the processes. Are you in there long enough to make some assessment, collectively, of the processes by which underperformance is challenged in schools?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
First, I should like to thank Ofsted for the very good work that it does in schools. I have a couple of questions about the benefits of the focus that the Bill permits. My colleague, Mr Stuart, was just talking about the focus on four areas, rather than others, in evaluating schools. What are the benefits of that in terms of your work?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
I have a quick follow up question. The attitude of head teachers when they get the call that they will have an Ofsted report is clear and crucial. Do you think the Bill will change responses such as, “Good heavens, it’s Ofsted,” “I’m delighted it’s Ofsted,” or “Not again.”? How do you think the reaction will change?
Richard Fuller (Conservative, Bedford)
I will not ask you to say what it is.
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
The Bill will require Ofqual to determine whether regulated qualifications indicate a consistent level of attainment between regulated qualifications and comparable qualifications. How will one decide whether qualifications are comparable, and how can their levels of attainment be accurately compared?
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
I am sorry, but that is it; the guillotine has dropped. Sorry Sue. Come back again soon.
Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)
Thank you very much for coming. Short questions, short answers. We have 20 minutes for this evidence—another short session.
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
I thank you both for coming to give evidence today—it is very much appreciated. Could you say something about the requirement in the Bill to look at international comparisons when you are assessing standards in our qualifications system, and about how that might work in practice in the work that you plan to do to implement the Bill?
Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)
Could you say which countries you are looking at, if you can remember them without your notes?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
I was going to ask a bit more about clause 22, but I think that Dennis has answered my questions satisfactorily. Why, however, were those particular countries selected and others not?
Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)
My main question, Mr Opposs, relates to clause 21. It seems that the fundamental essence of Ofqual is to be independent of Government, so that people have confidence that standards are being maintained and there is that independent assessment. Does clause 21 help or hinder that sense and perception of independence in respect of the changes to chair, chief regulator and chief executive—or have I missed the point, and it is not about that but about improving governance?
Tessa Munt (Liberal Democrat, Wells)
I want to know about impartiality in comparing qualifications, and how you feel Ofqual is going to do that for those qualifications that it regulates and those that it does not. How are you going to demonstrate impartiality?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Can you explain what new subsection (2)(b)(ii) in clause 22 means in practice for you, because I cannot make any sense of it, and what sense I can make suggests to me an impossible task? Perhaps you can tell me whether it is an impossible task or whether I have merely misunderstood.
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Thank you. Does not your answer suggest that there is no evidence to support the idea in the mind of the people who drafted this, that our tendency will be to drift downwards, and others will be drifting up? Hopefully, our standards will be solid. What happens if others lower their standards? It seems to me that this law—if we pass it into law—will tell us that we have to change our level of attainment depending on what happens in this international comparative basket.
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
Do you think that it makes sense? Do you think that this is a well-drafted clause, instructing you what to do?
Graham Stuart (Conservative, Beverley and Holderness)
I will take that as a no.
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
In looking at levels of attainment, how do you do it in terms of making sure that qualifications for inclusion in international comparisons are consistent?
Mark Hendrick (Labour, Preston)
Someone who has done physics and chemistry in this country might find that the physics and chemistry in New Zealand and Australia are different. If a person has gone on to do a degree at university, that might have some bearing on their ability to follow that course. In a subject such as history, such a difference might not be that relevant because it is about methodology and the way in which history is looked at and studied. Are those considerations brought into play when you make those comparisons?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
One of the motivations behind all this is the Secretary of State’s interest in international comparisons, particularly in the PISA tables, which are frequently cited as the most telling evidence—the comparison of the PISA position of England in 2001 with the PISA league table position of England in the most recent tables. You have obviously looked at this in great detail. Is there any methodological problem with making that comparison, which is done by the Secretary of State frequently and publicly?
Kevin Brennan (Labour, Cardiff West)
Am I right in saying that that was the year 2001, which the Secretary of State uses as the point of comparison?