Identity Documents Bill

Public Bill Committee, 29 June 2010.

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Good morning everybody. Before we begin, I have a few preliminary announcements. Members may, if they wish, remove their jackets during Committee sittings—I see you already have. Would all Members please ensure that mobile phones, pagers and so on are turned off or switched to silent mode during our proceedings? I remind Members that adequate notice should be given of amendments. For example, to be eligible for selection at a Tuesday sitting, amendments must be tabled by rise of the House the previous Thursday. For a Thursday meeting, amendments must be tabled by the previous Monday. As a general rule, my fellow chairman and I do not intend to call starred amendments.

Not everyone is familiar with the process of taking oral evidence in Public Bill Committees, and that includes me, so it might help if I briefly explain how we will proceed. The Committee will first be asked to consider the programme motion on the amendment paper; debate on that motion is limited to half an hour. We will then proceed to consider a motion to report written evidence and a motion to permit the Committee to deliberate in private before the oral evidence sessions; I hope that we can take them formally, so do not get too comfortable in the Gallery.

Assuming that the second of the motions is agreed to, the Committee will move into private session. Once the Committee has deliberated, witnesses and members of the public will be invited back into the room, and our oral evidence session will commence. If the Committee agrees with the programme motion, we will hear oral evidence today and then revert to the more familiar process of clause-by-clause scrutiny on Thursday.

Damian Green (Conservative, Ashford)

I beg to move,

That—

TABLE

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship during proceedings on this important Bill, Mr Streeter. The Government’s first Bill, in their first 100 days, is a repeal, which is not exactly positive. Opposition Members will certainly give the Minister a run for his money. In many ways, the Bill is controversial, and we will be raising various issues in Committee. However, we have discussed the planned programme through the usual channels and we are happy with it, so we are happy to support the motion.

Damian Green (Conservative, Ashford)

I beg to move,

That, subject to the discretion of the Chairman, any written evidence received by the Committee shall be reported to the House for publication.

It is genuinely uncontroversial that we should report to the House any written evidence that the Committee receives.

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Copies of memorandums that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee Room.

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

I now invite members of the public to leave us for what we hope will be a short while. We will see you shortly.

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Thank you very much, everyone, for waiting outside and coming back in again. Now is our opportunity to hear oral evidence from Eric Metcalfe of Justice and Shami Chakrabarti of Liberty. For the record, would you please introduce yourselves?

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Thank you. Before I call the first Member to ask a question, I want to remind hon. Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill, and that we must stick strictly to the timings in the programme motion that has been agreed. I hope that I do not have to interrupt anyone; in fact, I am sure that that will not be necessary. Julian, did you want to ask a question?

Julian Huppert (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge)

I just want to declare for the record that I am a member of the national council of Liberty. We have not had any particular discussions about the Bill since it came out, but I just wanted that fact to be recorded.

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Thank you. The first question is from Meg Hillier.

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

Thanks very much, Mr Streeter, and welcome to Ms Chakrabarti and Mr Metcalfe. I think that we all know where you, or your organisations, are coming from on this issue: you are pro this Bill in its entirety. Given that you are pro the cancellation of identity cards, are you ruling out the use of biometrics, such as fingerprints in identity documents, in the UK per se?

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

Biometrics include signatures, so if we take it to its extreme, you do need a signature for quite a lot of things.

If that is the case then, one of the objections about identity cards was having an identity register, but one of the points about any register—and we have a passport database, of course—is that you do need to keep a log of people’s data; otherwise the card, as a stand-alone card, is less useful. So presumably therefore you do not have a problem with having a register or a database of biometrics if they were to be included in a card or a passport in the future.

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

I find that interesting and a bit puzzling, because eight out of 10 British citizens currently have a British passport and there has been a passport database for some time—I have seen paper records from 1916, for instance. Those data are kept for quite a long time. It is important to prove citizenship, even after someone’s death, for their relatives. That data are held and used for many purposes—for example in the passport validation service. Someone can ring up and check data against the register. They are used if you apply for a driving licence. You can get data downloaded from the passport database and make sure your driving licence is included. So if we have that database, what is the particular concern about a national identity register, which had a number of security measures that were taken very seriously by the previous Government? In fact, Ms Chakrabarti was invited to be involved in some of those discussions, although we never got a response from her office. We were open to hearing such things when we were in Government and keen to ensure that the new passport database was even more secure than the old one. I am puzzled. What is the problem with databases?

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Meg, any more?

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

Yes, because I need to counter that. I do not want to appear rude, Ms Chakrabarti, but that is frankly nonsense. As I am sure you are aware, in the Act as it currently stands while we are debating this Bill, that was not allowed. First, the card was not compulsory, and we had no plans to make it compulsory; secondly, it did not need to be presented. It is important to get that right on the record: it was actually not legal to require someone to present the card for access to any public service. It is important to get those facts absolutely straight. In terms of race relations, it could not have been used as a border within the country. That is absolute nonsense.

In terms of civil liberties, the card would have put the citizen in control of their data, because no one could have had access to anything without the permission of the card owner, without the card present and, crucially, without their fingerprints. I would counter the argument and suggest that by removing the measures, we are going back to the old system of multiple databases across Government. We are reducing that. I wonder whether there are any final comments from the witnesses.

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Final point, then we will move on to another question.

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

It was always a voluntary scheme. Myths are being created here. It is important that we get the facts straight.

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

I remind everyone that this is a question and answer session. Steve McCabe has a question, I am sure.

Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)

This one is nice and simple. Do Liberty and Justice have any databases themselves? Can you tell us how big they are, how many people are on them, what sort of information they contain, what safeguards there are and how long you have held the information?

Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)

This is all on the record!

Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)

How long has Liberty had its present database—the present system that you employ?

Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)

The system that currently contains your database—how long have you had that?

Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)

I just wanted to check this bit. If I was on your database, presumably I have a right to go and look at that. At some point you moved from a different system to the one that you currently employ. I wonder when that was and whether you can tell me anything about the change that occurred. I am trying to establish how secure the system is and whether it has always been secure. How confidently can you tell the Committee that that has always been the case?

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

It is time to move on.

Julian Huppert (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge)

Can I move us on to residency permits—sometimes known as identity cards for foreign nationals—and the fact that those are being treated separately? What are your thoughts on the fact that they are not included in this area? Would it lead to a potential risk of discrimination between foreign and British nationals if the Bill were to become law?

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Mr Metcalfe, do you want to add anything?

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Any more questions from colleagues on the cancellation of ID cards?

Grahame Morris (Labour, Easington)

Liberty is promoting equal treatment and fairness, and given that 15,000 cards have already been issued to individuals on a voluntary basis, do you have a view whether it would be reasonable to use them as a legitimate form of identification?

Julian Huppert (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge)

Do you have any sense of how complex it would be to keep the entire system going for those 15,000 or what the costs involved might be in keeping an entire national identity system for such few people?

Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)

I am very concerned by your comments about people using a passport, a driving licence or other forms of identification. Do you not recognise that there are people who do not have much money, or records of living in certain accommodation? I am thinking about women who are fleeing domestic violence, and people who are trying to open bank accounts. If you do not drive, cannot afford a passport and have not paid any bills in your household, how do you prove your identity?

Bridget Phillipson (Labour, Houghton and Sunderland South)

You refer to the fact that it was mainly poor people who took up the ID cards. Do you therefore think that those people should be compensated, or that there should be the opportunity to transfer the cost of that compensation into acquiring a passport, as some kind of credit transfer? In that way, those people—many on poor incomes—who bought the cards in good faith following an Act of Parliament, would not be unfairly disadvantaged.

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

I am sorry to keep doing this, but I wish to make what is, I think, a factual correction of the record. The whole point of the national identity register is that it cannot be interrogated for information. In fact, nobody in this room, unless Ms Chakrabarti, the Minister or someone has a hotline—seriously, not even the Minister—will know the background, for example the income or ethnicity, of any individuals who hold identity cards. So, we can make no assumptions. There will be some anonymised data to which the Minister might have access and to which he might be able to alert us, but generally speaking none of us can make assumptions about who holds the cards.

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

That was not a question, so we will not go to our witnesses. Are there any more questions on the cancellation of ID cards?

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

On that last point, could you actually achieve an effective voucher or something, without compromising all the data security about which you are concerned? Would not you necessarily need someone at the Passport and Records Agency to be able to check that the discount you were offering was valid—to do a cross-check?

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

I have a second, not very, related question: do you actually think that an ID scheme with only 15,000 cards in existence can be an effective recognised scheme, or will people be so unfamiliar with it in four years’ time that they will not accept the cards as a form of ID even if they were, in theory, legally valid?

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Mr Metcalfe, do you want to add anything before we move on?

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Mr Timpson has our final question on the cancellation.

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

What effect do you think the cancellation of the voluntary ID card scheme will have on some of the reasons why the previous Government wanted to bring it in, such as the prevention of terrorism, the prevention of illegal immigration and the reduction of identification fraud? What effect do you think the cancellation of the voluntary scheme will have on those issues?

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

I have a feeling Ms Chakrabarti agrees with that.

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Julie Hilling has the final, final question on cancellation.

Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)

What effect do you think the cancellation will have on people who do not have any other means of identification, who cannot currently open bank accounts or other things? What effect will cancellation have on them?

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Ms Chakrabarti, do you want to add anything?

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

We are moving on to the national identity register and Aidan Burley has the first question.

Aidan Burley (Conservative, Cannock Chase)

Who do you think should be responsible for destroying the data currently on the national identity register? What form of oversight is required to ensure that that is done securely?

Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)

Do you think that a special audit committee should be set up to ensure that the material has been destroyed in the way that it should be, and to monitor the process?

Julian Huppert (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge)

Briefly, how broad do you think the destruction of data should be? There is the register itself and other information on people who applied and other interactions that have happened. Should it be a minimalist or a maximalist destruction?

Edward Timpson (Conservative, Crewe and Nantwich)

Going back to my previous premise of imagining that this scheme continues on a voluntary basis, do you have any concerns about the security and reliability of the register?

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Are there any more questions about the identity register?

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

On the point of people voluntarily going on the national identity register and then being on it for life, those of us with passports—eight out of 10 British citizens in this country—are on the passport database for life. I am puzzled as to what the principle objection is. Ms Chakrabarti has talked about specificity—I hate that word—and the focused need for data. The passport database, however, is used in much the same way as the proposed national identity register. The aim of the register was effectively to modernise and automate certain transactions that were open to human error. That remains the case with the passport database, which is not on a statutory footing.

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

I think that Ms Chakrabarti may have tackled that already, but please feel free to offer a brief response.

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Thank you. Let us move on to the third of our four groups of questions on the re-enactment of sections of the Identity Cards Act 2006. Dr Huppert will lead on this.

Julian Huppert (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge)

I am interested in clauses 4 to 6 and parts of clause 10, which will re-create parts of the 2006 Act. We will begin with clauses 4 to 6 and then move on to clause 10. Mr Metcalfe, you claim that much of clauses 4 to 6 merely re-enacts existing information from the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981. To what extent are the clauses a simplification of the long list of other Acts that you mention? Are there benefits in having new, clearly defined offences, or would the effect be exactly the same without them?

Julian Huppert (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge)

Do you have a sense of which Act is used for convictions? Has there been a shift for good reason to the 2006 Act, or are people still using the 1981 Act? You said that very little would be lost, but there is a difference between very little and nothing.

Julian Huppert (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge)

May I move on to clause 10, unless others want to raise other issues on clauses 4 to 6?

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Please do—no one is catching my eye.

Julian Huppert (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge)

In that case, I will move on to clause 10, which deals with relevant information for determining whether to issue or withdraw passports. I would be interested in some comments on the range of information listed here. Just as background, I asked around at the House of Commons Library and there is no statute law that governs what information can be required in relation to passports. It is a royal prerogative issue and so, in principle, any information whatsoever could potentially be used to determine that. I would be interested to hear your comments on that and whether there should be some way of defining what information is relevant, because issues, such as tax records or someone whom one has met at some stage, could in principle be used. How would you go about constraining the requirements of clause 10, so that it does what it wants to do and does not open up a huge list?

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Any more questions on that? Thank you. We move on to the final section, which will be about equality. Meg Hillier, would you like to lead for us please?

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

We have already touched on some of the issues here, but we currently have a system for foreign nationals of ID cards, or biometric resident permits—whatever you would like to call them. Many of my constituents, who are British but not necessarily born in Britain, were very keen to have an identity document issued by the British Government that would show very clearly that they are British. That was, unfortunately, due sometimes to prejudice from other people, but they were very keen to have one. I wonder if either of our guests would be keen to comment on that, and the situation we have now with identity cards, or resident permits, for certain people resident in the UK but not for others. Is there an inequality there? I know that Bridget wants to come in on that.

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

Of course I am talking from direct experience, because people have come up to me and spoken to me.

Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)

This is just a minor point, but given that Dr. Metcalfe has drawn his citizenship status to our attention may I ask him this? I notice that you were educated in New Zealand and Canada, two countries that do not have identity cards. Do you think that if you had grown up in a European country that had ID cards it might have influenced your view and the evidence you are giving us today?

Bridget Phillipson (Labour, Houghton and Sunderland South)

I want to focus on two issues of equality. First, in my previous career I managed a women’s refuge and I know the difficulties that many people face in acquiring some kind of photo identity. We touched earlier on the fact that you can acquire either a passport or a driving licence, but I would argue that you would not seek to acquire a driving licence if you did not intend to drive. To some people it would seem a bit illogical to get a driving licence as a form of identity if you had no intention of driving because you did not have the means to learn to drive. Secondly, the cost of passports can be high for some people. I know you touched earlier, Ms Chakrabarti, on whether the Government could consider means-testing or providing assistance on that. I do not imagine that that will be forthcoming. Would you like to comment on the difficulties that people find in proving their identity and, regardless of whether you believe it is right or wrong, the fact that to do quite a lot of things these days, such as sign for a house or rent a car, you need photo identity, and that for some people the photo ID card provided a cheaper alternative to the current systems?

Bridget Phillipson (Labour, Houghton and Sunderland South)

Yes, there clearly are exceptions, but I am sure that you can appreciate that that sometimes leads to unnecessary delays. Exceptions can be made and there are other alternatives, but sometimes that will lead to considerable delays in being able to sign for a house and move on with your life, and a whole range of issues.

Bridget Phillipson (Labour, Houghton and Sunderland South)

We have received evidence from an individual who referred to the special provision made under the ID card scheme to allow transgender people to have cards in both their birth and acquired identities. Do you think that there is any way, in the absence of the ID card system, that we can look to make some kind of provision for people who may feel some difficulty in having to provide identity documents relating to their previous, rather than current, gender?

Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)

I wonder whether Ms Chakrabarti has any concerns that the multiplicity of purpose-specific documents that she would like us to carry could lead to a growth in crime and identity fraud, which is already a major issue. If I were required to carry a different document for every eventuality, I would have a number of versions of my identity on my person. Presumably, as regards theft, having all those documents that look different makes things easier for people who want to forge identities and deliberately use them to further crime. Do you have any concerns that that is a problem under your line of reasoning?

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

Are there any more questions under the heading of equality?

Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)

On the different concerns that have been raised by members of the Committee, it strikes me that in the quest to abolish, the fear caused by the potential use of a national identity database is outweighing the potential benefits, or the difficulties that will arise from not having the ID card. For example, not having it will cause a more fractious and less equal society, in the sense that everyone will be card-carrying in different ways. People on lower incomes who have no other means of having a form of identity will carry their “I am on a low income” card; foreign nationals will carry a different type of card to prove their identity; those with the means will have passports; and others will have driving licences. The rationale behind the ID card was that it was a cheap and unifying way for people to prove their identity. Do you see any weight at all in that argument?

Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)

But the card was voluntary at the time.

Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)

What, then, would be the proposal for a means of identification for people who need one, and who do not drive or have a passport?

Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)

It seems to me that you are saying that there is not really a solution for the person who has fled domestic violence, or the person who does not have any record. When a small organisation tries to open a bank account, for example, a number of people cannot be signatories, because they cannot provide the necessary documentation. I am trying to push you; if we do not have identity cards, what is the solution?

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

I would like to ask Dr Metcalfe, who talked about data and how they are held and used, a question. We give an immense amount of data on a daily basis to all sorts of organisations. Many of them, from the Ministry of Defence to the ITN building, have a photograph of me, and presumably some record that I have been there. Data protection is working properly, one hopes, in that respect.

An identity card would hold specific information in one place about who I am, and would provide proof of that, if necessary in certain circumstances, through the form of a fingerprint. I would not need to provide a lot of other information to a lot of organisations. My driving licence only needs to show that I am able to drive, and other documents only that I am able to meet a specific purpose. If you look at it like that, identity cards could have been a way for citizens to choose to give their core data to one place and to then not have to give them to many other organisations. You could very quickly prove with your card in your hand, and not necessarily through access to a database, that your identity was secure; the rest of the data would not need to be supplied. Have you thought about whether there are better ways of reducing the amount of data that we have to give others? If we are not to have the ID card scheme, what would you like to see the Government do?

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

I am talking only about identity—literally your identity and your address; that would be it.

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

I am sorry to interrupt, but I should like to clarify my point. The way that the scheme was set up meant that no one could have mined the data. My point was that if I wanted to hire a car or get a driving licence, an identity card could prove that I was me. I am not suggesting that other data be added to the national identity register. My point was about identity.

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

I am going to move us on. Guy Opperman has a question.

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

I have a question for both of you. I think it was Edmund Burke who said that liberty lost is rarely regained. The previous Government always said—and it has been said several times today—that the proposed scheme was voluntary. My understanding, from reading the legislation in my previous life, was that the original purpose was to combat terrorism and improve international security. What evidence do you have that the voluntary carrying of an ID card would have become a requirement in the longer term?

Gary Streeter (Conservative, South West Devon)

I sense that we are drifting into the debates that we may enjoy on Thursday and next week, but I do not want to short-change anyone. Are there any more specific questions for the witnesses? If not, we will move towards a conclusion.

It is time to wrap up our business for this morning. Thank you to Dr Metcalfe and Ms Chakrabarti for an interesting and helpful session.

Martin Caton (Labour, Gower)

We will now hear oral evidence from Mike Fazackerley of Manchester airport and Angela Epstein. Welcome to the Committee. For the record, will you introduce yourselves?

Martin Caton (Labour, Gower)

Sorry.

Martin Caton (Labour, Gower)

Thank you. Before calling the first question, I remind hon. Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick strictly to the timing of the programme motion with which the Committee has agreed. I hope that I do not have to interrupt mid-sentence, but I will do so if need be. I call first Meg Hillier.

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

Thank you, Mr. Caton. As ever, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I wish first to direct my questions to Mr Fazackerley. It would be helpful if the Committee got an idea of the scheme described in your evidence, which you were working up, to use ID cards to gain certain benefits within the airports system.

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

How long did it take normally to check somebody to get a security pass at Manchester?

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

Was one of the benefits that you were speeding up that process by having an ID card, or had it not kicked in yet? Did you think that it was going to work?

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

From that, did your airport group save any costs, or would that have been a prospect for the future?

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

Thank you. That is very interesting.

Damian Green (Conservative, Ashford)

So people were able to get a same-day document—that was one of the advantages?

Damian Green (Conservative, Ashford)

There were no CRB or security checks for people renewing?

Damian Green (Conservative, Ashford)

You would not do any new checks?

Gordon Henderson (Conservative, Sittingbourne and Sheppey)

During the trial period, in your experience, how long did it take to actually obtain an ID card?

Gordon Henderson (Conservative, Sittingbourne and Sheppey)

Yes.

Gordon Henderson (Conservative, Sittingbourne and Sheppey)

The reason you wanted to use the ID card system was to speed up your process. We have been told all along that the ID card system was going to be purely voluntary, therefore you would have had a two-tier system, because you would have been treating people who did not have ID cards differently from those who did. Would you eventually have been trying to ensure that everyone who came along for a job had an ID card? That would have made it no longer voluntary, but compulsory.

Julian Huppert (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge)

I have two questions—one brief and one long. Roughly how many ID cards did your staff end up collecting?

Julian Huppert (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge)

So it was quite a large proportion of all those that were ever issued?

Julian Huppert (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge)

I have heard various reasons why a better process would be useful and I can understand that. You talked about the Department for Transport agreeing that you could do 10-year transferable passes. Is there a fundamental reason why the DFT could not do that based on a passport, or is it just that the DFT was trying to make things easy for you in this instance, but would not otherwise?

Julian Huppert (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge)

Would that be a particularly different process from verifying that an ID card is not fake, or would it be similar?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

I have a couple of questions. You indicated 2,500, but you only have 1,400 staff. Why was that?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

You indicated that you took up 2,500 cards, but as I understand it, you employ 1,400 staff.

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

Did the Government give you any financial benefit or incentive for being one of the first to take on the scheme?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

Help me to understand that. The airport did not get any benefit, but any employee of the airport received the benefit of getting the ID card for free.

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

Did that apply to all the 2,500 cards?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

So not just your staff, but other staff as well?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

Basically, the Government just gave them away?

Damian Green (Conservative, Ashford)

So it was the taxpayer who bore the cost of that, not your company?

Damian Green (Conservative, Ashford)

Therefore, of the 15,000 ID cards that were issued, the taxpayer paid for at least 2,500 of them?

Damian Green (Conservative, Ashford)

I see, but the arrangements with London City would have been on the same basis?

Damian Green (Conservative, Ashford)

Do you know how many were issued to London City?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

Following on from that, presumably there must have been some sort of briefing or seminar before you signed up to the scheme when it was indicated what exactly you were signing up to. I take that London City and other groups were there as well. You must have had a preliminary briefing.

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

You were there at the briefing. Was London City there?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

To the best of your knowledge, London City was part of the same trial.

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

Were you aware of other people in the same trial?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

Could you give us some names?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

No, as part of the system whereby you get free ID cards. The indication has been given that London City airport did so as well. Were there any others?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

Help me to understand. If the argument were to be that there should be a repayment, would it be to you or to the staff?

Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)

How did the staff react to the proposals and the card scheme?

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

You have gone through some of the evaluation. The Bill proposes repealing the scheme, but whether or not the card continues to exist in its current form, can you see the longer term benefits that there would have been, including security improvements, time and cost-saving, and greater convenience, had the pilot scheme been rolled out more widely and made available to others?

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

It is interesting, because that issue came up in evidence this morning, and it is perhaps not so marginal. For you, was the fingerprint—we are talking about biometrics, but essentially it was a fingerprint in this case—a significant part of identity assurance, meaning that you could rely on it and let go of the information that you were previously holding?

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

Another thing that is sort of connected to the Bill is that there has been a halt on the Government introducing fingerprints into passports, which was scheduled to happen from 2012. The Minister will be able to explain what that means exactly. Do you have any views on whether that would make a difference, if you were to go down the route that you mentioned of using passports?

David Simpson (DUP, Upper Bann)

On a point of clarification, Mr Green asked Mike a question about the fact that it takes eight to 12 weeks to carry out the security side of the process, but if a card is lost or misplaced, it can be replaced within 24 hours. Did you say that no further security checks were carried out?

David Simpson (DUP, Upper Bann)

At the point of the eight-to-12-week process. But did you say that no further security checks were carried out if the card was lost or needed to be replaced thereafter?

Grahame Morris (Labour, Easington)

Part of the rationale for the ID cards is the protection of our borders, protection from illegal immigration, protection against ID fraud and protection from terrorism. At Manchester airport, you are very much on the front line. You are a sort of gateway, controlling the passage of people who are travelling to and fro, and maintaining the integrity of our borders. We have heard about the importance of ensuring that the staff are properly screened so that there are no opportunities for ID fraud or for terrorists to penetrate what is quite a sensitive installation. What is your opinion about how the scheme worked in your case? Do you think that it was good, bad, or indifferent? Was it helpful?

Aidan Burley (Conservative, Cannock Chase)

Mike, on the benefits, you said that the scheme had helped to streamline the process and had made things a bit easier. Had you done any cost-benefit analysis of the tangible benefits, to see whether it cut your operating costs or saved you money? I am trying to get a sense of the tangible benefits that were brought to you as a business.

Aidan Burley (Conservative, Cannock Chase)

But it did not get that far?

Damian Green (Conservative, Ashford)

I am interested to hear you say that you could gain the benefits by other means. Is that basically by using passports for the same sort of purposes?

Damian Green (Conservative, Ashford)

On a slightly separate topic, you said that your staff broadly welcomed the scheme, but I remember that some of the unions, certainly, were very hostile—some of the air unions proposed motions at the TUC against the whole scheme. Clearly, there were differences of opinion.

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

One final point: you mentioned that you would like to see some of the benefits of the evaluation continue, although the evaluation only got to a certain point. Would you like to keep that going and see the full benefits, perhaps in an attempt to reignite such uses, even with another document?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

Going back to that, when airside workers realised that the scheme was no longer compulsory, and it went back to being voluntary, they basically dropped their opposition—purely because, I suggest, they knew they would not need to sign up to it. That has to be the rep case, does it not?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

But that view must have been influenced, surely, by the fact that you were getting well in excess of £100,000 of benefit paid for by the taxpayer.

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

I am quite impressed by the proactive way in which you used the scheme to find a better system for yourself. It looks to me as if we are trying to fix a terrible airside pass system by having a hugely expensive national ID system, when actually the answer would have been just to fix the poor system. Is that a fair conclusion?

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

In effect, some of the innovative ideas that were put into the scheme could be replicated, as you have said, using the passport database or something similar, so that we get the best of this world without, perhaps, the worst.

Aidan Burley (Conservative, Cannock Chase)

Mike, you said that you would not justify the cost of the ID card system for Manchester airport. Would you justify the cost of the trial? Do you feel that you got £100,000-worth of taxpayer benefits from what you went through, given that you were not able to give us any example of tangible advantages that came out of it? Could you spend a hundred grand in a better way, if you were given it now?

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

I think East Midlands airport is also in your group. Presumably, you think that the security arrangements and the safety for passengers are as strong at East Midlands airport, which is not part of this scheme, as at Manchester airport.

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

Have you experienced many passengers flying from Manchester airport using the ID card, rather than a passport?

Martin Caton (Labour, Gower)

Are there any further questions to Mr Fazackerley at this stage? Obviously, we can return to him if members of the Committee wish to do so afterwards. The first question to Ms Epstein is from Robert Halfon.

Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)

Thank you, Mr. Caton. Ms Epstein, why have you supported the ID card scheme? Why did you decide to buy the card?

Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)

And how do you think that an ID card, particularly a voluntary one, would stop terrorism?

Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)

Given the low take-up of voluntary ID cards—it is even lower now that we have found out that 2,500 cards were yours, Mr Fazackerley—was your position representative of people in this country?

Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)

Do you think it was right for the scheme to fine anyone whose information on the database was out of date?

Robert Halfon (Conservative, Harlow)

Just one final question, if I may: do you think that the card should have been compulsory?

Aidan Burley (Conservative, Cannock Chase)

Could you tell us how you have used your card since December, and how it has proved easier than other forms of ID?

Shabana Mahmood (Labour, Birmingham, Ladywood)

How do you feel about the decision to scrap the scheme without compensating people, such as yourself, who hold ID cards?

Shabana Mahmood (Labour, Birmingham, Ladywood)

There are two potential options: you can either have your £30 back or you can get credit the next time you update your passport. I presume you would prefer the first.

Damian Green (Conservative, Ashford)

You used some very strong language when you spoke about compensation. I am interested to know whether you recognise that there is a distinction. I would have more sympathy with the argument if it had been a compulsory scheme—if the cards were being forced on people—but, as the previous Government made clear, it was voluntary. It was entirely your decision; nobody forced you to spend £30 on something when you knew that a Government who pledged to get rid of the cards could be elected. In the end, it was your decision to do it. Nobody forced you to spend that £30. It is like buying an analogue TV set, then three years down the line, it all goes digital, and your TV set is no longer useful.

Damian Green (Conservative, Ashford)

But you would have been aware of the circumstances that might obtain. You went into the scheme with your eyes open.

Damian Green (Conservative, Ashford)

Precisely.

Julian Huppert (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge)

You are making an interesting point. You argue that Governments should not be able to change things that have been agreed by previous Governments. That seems to be where you are heading. If you make a decision—an investment decision, to get an identity card or anything else—and there is a change of Government, your argument seems to be that the new Government should not be allowed to do anything that would change the decision you could have made. I find that very worrying. I think that Governments should be able to undo errors made by previous Governments whether it comes to this or more broadly. Are you arguing this just because you invested £30 or are you trying to make the case that Governments should not be able to make changes to previous Governments’ decisions?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

To what extent did your photo driving licence differ from your identity card in usage over the last year?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

Okay, what about in six months? Is there any fundamental difference between your photo driving licence and the identity card?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

Yes, but is there any fundamental difference? There is not, is there?

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

I just asked you a really simply question.

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

You say you are not the poster girl for the photo ID card, but you are the person who has written about it extensively in a variety of magazines—

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

—and you proceeded to apply first for it. But a driving licence—I may be strongly criticised by the people who introduced it—and an ID card are exactly the same size, give or take a millimetre.

Guy Opperman (Conservative, Hexham)

I think you are obliged under law to have a photo driving licence.

Martin Caton (Labour, Gower)

Carry on, Ms Epstein.

Martin Caton (Labour, Gower)

Please do.

Bridget Phillipson (Labour, Houghton and Sunderland South)

Presumably you apply for a driving licence when you intend to drive. That was why I applied for mine. Not everybody intends to learn to drive or wants to do so. So presumably for those people an ID card would be a valuable option?

Bridget Phillipson (Labour, Houghton and Sunderland South)

You say that you bought your card in good faith. Do you think it is fair to compare a purchase from a retailer to a purchase from the Government? Surely an Act of Parliament and a purchase from the Government are very different from, and not comparable to, the purchase of a retail product.

Martin Caton (Labour, Gower)

Order. I do not know about other people, but it is difficult for me to hear the witness. Can we remain at least reasonably silent?

Martin Caton (Labour, Gower)

No, the problem was not how loud you were speaking, but the volume of other people. If you continue, we will have a little bit more hush.

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

We heard from witnesses this morning that there was a real risk that the identity card database—we have not really talked about that with you this afternoon—was an attack on personal civil liberty. That was the big worry and there was a concern that, even if it was benevolent now, it would become big and bad in the future. Do you have any comments on that? Have you thought about whether the database was an attack on your civil liberties?

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

Another concern that people have raised is that, in order to protect civil liberties, there would be a track of who looked up information on the register. That would prove that you were the only person who had done that with your card and perhaps, in time, there would be a reading machine. Did you have concerns about that tracking of access to any data about you, or were you not worried about it?

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

Every time you used your ID card, there would be some kind of footprint.

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

That you had used it for a particular transaction.

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

You have been asked a number of questions about why you chose to have an ID card and we have talked about the documents. Was the attachment to a fingerprint a material part of your decision to have an ID card?

Meg Hillier (Labour, Hackney South and Shoreditch)

That brings me to my final point. You have made it very clear that you are not political, but the current Government policy is to halt the introduction of fingerprints to passports from 2012. Halt does not mean an end to it. Do you have any comments on that?

Catherine McKinnell (Labour, Newcastle upon Tyne North)

I was going to ask about your feelings about the view that your civil liberties are being infringed, but that has already been covered.

Julian Huppert (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge)

I was wondering whether Miss Epstein was going to talk about wanting the card to continue. Are you interested in the 15,000 cards continuing to be valid, as Opposition Members suggested?

Julian Huppert (Liberal Democrat, Cambridge)

Are you concerned at all about the cost of keeping the entire system going across the country?

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

On that point, would the card be a sufficiently recognised form of ID, and would you get value for the £30 that you paid, if nobody in the country actually recognised the card, given that only 15,000 people would ever have one?

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

No, if it was left as it is now, but no more cards were issued. Would it not be as worthless to keep it in force in theory as it would be to cancel it?

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

The question I was asking was if just the 15,000 cards currently in existence were retained and were valid for 10 years, would anyone recognise them as a valid form of ID, given that people would be so unfamiliar with them?

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

But they will only be of any use if the place you take them to actually recognises them as valid. If people in Nottingham have not seen one of these cards for two years, and you try to use one to prove your ID, might they not say, “I don’t recognise this thing.”

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

That is not much help to you if they do not.

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

I do not think it is.

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

It is a cheque.

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

I was asking you a question for your view actually.

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

It is legal to use a Scottish banknote, but you will find many shops down here do not take very kindly to your presenting them.

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

I am sure—

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

Yes, but that does not mean that they do, does it?

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

But no one will want to go through trying to make them.

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

I was trying to ask you whether you thought you would get full value. I had another question. I was looking through my wallet, thinking, “What would I not have to carry if I had an ID card,” but I could not actually find anything. From your experience, is there anything that you do not carry that you used to carry, now that you have your ID card?

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

When you bought your card, did you think there were would be a review period that was less than 10 years?

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

It contrasts with you thinking that the card would be guaranteed to last for 10 years if you were conscious that there might be a review?

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

Sorry. It contrasts with your view that you thought the card was guaranteed to last for 10 years, if you thought there would be a review at some time halfway through.

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

I was just contrasting views.

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

I saw an inconsistency in what you were saying.

Nigel Mills (Conservative, Amber Valley)

How awful.

Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)

May I ask almost exactly the same questions? Mr Fazackerley, I do not know whether you or your staff have had the opportunity to use the card in some of the ways that were being asked of Miss Epstein. Have you or your staff had the opportunity to use the card, and how simple have they found its use, not just in the work situation, but in the wider world?

Julie Hilling (Labour, Bolton West)

Are you aware of staff making use of them?

Martin Caton (Labour, Gower)

If Members have no further questions for either of the witnesses, that brings us to the end of our business this afternoon.