Crime and Security Bill

Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2010.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I welcome all our witnesses to this Committee sitting. We will hear evidence this morning from a range of organisations that are concerned with domestic violence. To help everybody, not least those who will be taking everything down verbatim, could you please identify yourselves to the Committee and can I suggest that Mr. Brian Moore, from my left, commences the introductions?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Thank you very much. I shall ask each of you to make an introductory comment lasting a minute—no more—on the overview of those you represent on the Bill. When you answer questions from members of the Committee, could you please be as succinct as possible, not least because in this sitting we have five organisations giving evidence and we have to finish by 10.25. Could you begin, Mr. Moore?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I am most grateful for those overviews from all of you. The questioning will begin with Tony Baldry.

Tony Baldry (Conservative, Banbury)

We are all agreed that domestic violence is a serious issue that has to be tackled. It is particularly serious because it inherently involves a breach of trust. I was fortunate last year to be part of the police parliamentary scheme, which involves spending a number of days with the police—in my case, the Thames Valley police. I was very impressed by the seriousness with which domestic violence was taken—specialist officers and specialist units—and by the fact that whenever there was a report of domestic violence, it was dealt with as an immediate blue-light incident that officers went to.

My concern is to look at the practicalities. On Second Reading, one of our colleagues, Humfrey Malins, who is a part-time judge and sits as a Crown court recorder, made rather an interesting speech. He said that he was

“old enough now to be released from Standing Committees”.—[Official Report, 18 January 2010; Vol. 504, c. 78.]

As you can see, he is not on the Committee, so clearly we are all young enough to be on such Committees. I want to put my question to Mr. Moore, but if others want to chip in, please feel free to do so.

Humfrey’s first point was: why does one need a domestic violence protection notice? If there is an incident of alleged domestic violence, why does one not simply charge the perpetrator for assault, actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm or whatever the appropriate criminal charge is, and then deal with exclusion from the matrimonial home, if need be, by bail condition?

Tony Baldry (Conservative, Banbury)

Could we go through the practicalities of this? I do not know about Wiltshire, but my impression in Oxfordshire is this: Oxford is divided into divisions and, of a night, each division has a sergeant, maybe four constables, a duty inspector for PACE purposes, and there is one superintendent for the whole county based in Oxford. Under the provisions of the Bill as drafted, the superintendent has to listen to the representations of those upon whom a DVPN—domestic violence protection notice—might be imposed, which indicates that the superintendent has to have the individual physically in front of them to hear their representations.

Let us suppose that there is a domestic violence incident in Banbury on my patch. Two officers will have to take the alleged perpetrator in a police car to St. Aldates in Oxford to find the duty superintendent. That would mean two police officers being taken away from the usual four—only four—in Banbury at night. If that to happen, why does it have to be the rank of superintendent? Why not inspector? If it is a superintendent, do you not see a lot of logistical issues?

Tony Baldry (Conservative, Banbury)

I do not dispute that every force might well have a duty superintendent who is there, as you say, to cover a whole number of things. My concern was more that police constables will be taken off patrolling duties, often to travel quite large distances, to find a superintendent. They do not do that at the moment. If it is a PACE inquiry, they will find the duty inspector who will be in their police station. I do not know about Wiltshire, but people are going to have to travel quite large distances, are they not?

Tony Baldry (Conservative, Banbury)

There seems to be a lacuna here. Say a person accused of perpetrating domestic violence is brought into the police station and the custody sergeant does not think it appropriate to charge them with an actual offence. One of these notices is issued, and then they will have to come before the magistrates within 48 hours. If this happens on a Friday night, Oxford or Banbury magistrates court will hear all these orders on a Monday morning. What test will the magistrates have to apply that they would not apply in an instance of common assault? What issues will they have to consider at that time?

Tony Baldry (Conservative, Banbury)

I have a couple of questions for Dr. Connor, but this is my last question to you. Humfrey Malins made the point that there was under-charging, so that police officers or police forces tend to charge common assault

“because it does not go to the Crown court, so they get a quick guilty plea and a lesser sentence. Very nasty violence is not being dealt with in the courts as it should be due to under-charging. The problem is endemic among police forces in the south-east, as far as I can see.”—[Official Report, 18 January 2010; Vol. 504, c. 81.]

Do you think there is under-charging at present, because the CPS prefers matters to go for a quick plea to magistrates court?

Tony Baldry (Conservative, Banbury)

May I ask Dr. Connor some quick questions? There appear to be orders under the Family Law Act 1996 and the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004, so they are already on the statute book. If I understood the Second Reading debate correctly, those provisions have simply not been implemented. If those provisions of those Acts, which are already on the statute book, were to be implemented, would there still be a need for this new piece of legislation?

Tony Baldry (Conservative, Banbury)

I assume so, yes.

Tony Baldry (Conservative, Banbury)

The proposal uses the word “molesting”, which comes from matrimonial and family law and civil legislation. What we have here is a concept of the police effectively bringing civil proceedings before the magistrates court. Is not part of the issue that it is now so difficult for people to get legal aid? In days gone by, people could get non-molestation orders—in fact they still can—or ouster orders in the county court, but the difficulty is accessing legal aid to do that. Effectively, what used to be done at the county courts or the civil courts will be done in a rather hybrid way in the magistrates court, with a mixture of the police and magistrates having to apply, not a criminal test, but a civil test to proceedings brought by the police.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Tony, you have been holding the floor for more than a quarter of an hour—20 minutes.

Tony Baldry (Conservative, Banbury)

I hope all my questions have been relevant, Sir Nicholas.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

They have been relevant, but I feel that we have to allow other members of the Committee to participate. We have limited time. The last question from Mr. Baldry, at this stage.

Tony Baldry (Conservative, Banbury)

I apologise to colleagues. I hope my questions have been relevant. On Second Reading, the Minister intervened on Humphrey Malins to say:

“that it is proposed that they should act as a pilot, so that we can look at how they work and determine whether they are a helpful addition to other proposals that will reduce domestic violence and help the victim.”—[Official Report, 18 January 2010; Vol. 504, c. 78.]

Do you understand the scheme as being a pilot? If it is, how do you see it being monitored, assessed and generally evaluated?

Douglas Hogg (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I have only two brief questions and am quite happy to hear from everybody, because I expect very brief answers. I always approach these matters from the civil liberties point of view and I am concerned about the civil liberties of P. You have obviously focused more on the other party. I note that in clause 25 there is no requirement, as I understand it, for the court to consider representations made by P, if P is available to make them. I take it that none of you would have any objections to a requirement being written into the Bill that the court should listen to the representations of P.

Secondly and differently, as far as I can see in clause 25 or the related clauses, there is no ability for P to apply back to the court during the currency of the domestic violence protection order for the court to vary or discharge the order. Again, I take it that none of you would have any objection to my writing into the Bill a right for the P to apply back and the court to have an ability to discharge or vary the order if it thinks fit.

Douglas Hogg (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

So you would say that you have no objections to its going in the Bill, because you think it is in the law anyway?

Douglas Hogg (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Would you not think it a good idea to put it on the face of the Bill?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Deborah. Do you wish to come in on this?

Douglas Hogg (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

You are saying that you do not object to the principle, but wonder whether it is worth incorporating on the grounds of proportionality. Am I right in thinking that that is your view?

Douglas Hogg (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I am not requiring any response. If he turns up, he should be given the opportunity to make representations. If he chooses not to turn up, that is bad luck for the respondent.

Douglas Hogg (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Are you suggesting that an order can be made without the respondent being told of the return date?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Thank you. Jane, do you wish to come in on that?

Tom Brake (Liberal Democrat, Carshalton and Wallington)

It is clear that all the panel members are very strong advocates of the domestic violence protection notice, but I would like to examine a little further the circumstances in which you think it should apply. Clearly, there will be cases of one-off incidents, perhaps where both parties are involved in domestic violence, for example. In those circumstances, would you expect the notice to be applied, and is there not the risk that a one-off problem that might have been resolved within the household could actually be escalated by the application of a DVPN? To play devil’s advocate and make a counter-argument, is there a risk that the impact of a DVPN on a partner who has a history of violence will escalate that violence and that the victim will be on the receiving end of it?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Who would you like to answer that?

Tom Brake (Liberal Democrat, Carshalton and Wallington)

Whoever feels it is appropriate.

Tom Brake (Liberal Democrat, Carshalton and Wallington)

I do not know whether Ceri Goddard wants to respond as well. I have a quick supplementary for Brian Moore after you.

Tom Brake (Liberal Democrat, Carshalton and Wallington)

I want to come back to Brian Moore on the point made by Ms McIlveen about allegations and counter-allegations. In your experience, will your officers always be able to identify the real perpetrator, even though they may be making counter-allegations? However many allegations and counter-allegations are flying backwards and forwards, will you be able to apply the DVPN to the appropriate person?

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Devonport)

I have a query about the involvement of the Ministry of Defence in this part of the Bill. My constituency has one of the highest levels of domestic violence in the country. Much of it, unfortunately, is in the forces. When a forces family divorces, the children and wife, if she is not a member of the forces, have to get out. What is the legal position on debarring the perpetrator from an MOD home? I assume that the MOD is brought into this fully and is prepared to allow the wife and children to remain in the home while the member of the forces is removed. Does anybody have any idea where the rights to the home lie if this is taken further?

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Devonport)

It is obviously easier for the Army or the Navy to re-house a perpetrator temporarily because they have accommodation, which is not necessarily the case outside the forces. But there might be a complication here.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I think that the Minister would like to come in here.

David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)

Does Mr. Moore agree that when the Government drew up these proposals they considered those issues, and that the point that Deborah has just mentioned has been tested against our assessment of the legislation? Obviously, that will be subject to consideration by the courts, but that would be across the board. We would obviously test the operational delivery of that as part of the pilot. Would you agree?

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Devonport)

Thank you for those comments. My final question is about the experience of other countries. Brian Moore has already touched on Germany and Austria; there, when an order is in place, there is an automatic requirement for support services to get in touch with the victim. A lot of that happens now in the UK, but is it an automatic requirement, and should it be?

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Devonport)

In a sense, do the police need a one-stop place to go to, rather than having to try to select part of the support network?

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

My first point picks up on something that Mr. Moore said about it being a police decision, rather than the victim’s decision, to go ahead with this. I am just curious to hear the comments from the rest of the witnesses about what the perpetrator’s perception is likely to be, regarding whether it is a police decision or the victim’s decision, and what the knock-on effects might be for the victim, in terms of the perpetrator’s perception.

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

I want to take up the point about children in this situation, which has been mentioned a couple of times in passing. Does the Bill provide sufficient support in respect of children who witness domestic violence and sometimes, horrendously, are party to what is happening? If not, what measures should be taken to strengthen the Bill, as regards protecting children?

Rob Flello (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent South)

I am concerned that if the court issues the notice but does not subsequently issue an order, that may make the situation worse.

Douglas Hogg (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

I have two brief questions. My first is to the chief constable. I imagine that everybody agrees that this is essentially a temporary order. You are not contemplating a series of orders made on the application by a constable. You would say, I think, that if there was a continuing situation, there should be an application to a county court.

Separately and differently, on clause 21(2), on the threat of violence, where a person—let us call him P—has been violent to his partner, but not violent at that stage to a child, the officer may contemplate that, because the person is of a violent disposition, he may be violent to the child. I am not sure that subsection (2) is broad enough to justify the issuing of the notice. The officer might think that— notwithstanding that the child has not been threatened with violence—because the person has threatened violence to the spouse, he might threaten violence to the child. Should we therefore enlarge subsection (2)?

Andrew Rosindell (Conservative, Romford)

Clearly, all the witnesses today have supported the introduction of domestic violence protection orders for various reasons. Will they succinctly say precisely why the current law is inadequate?

Secondly, may I have a specific answer from Brian Moore to this question: if a crime is about to be, or has been, committed, surely there would be an arrest? Given the time it would take to issue a protection order, surely an instant arrest would be the police’s response.

Finally, how will the courts cope with the additional work load? Will this happen quickly, or will it take several days to issue an order?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Would any other witness wish to comment briefly on what Brian Moore has said or add anything?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Dr. Connor, do you have a final brief word before I go to Tom Brake?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

That is most helpful.

Tom Brake (Liberal Democrat, Carshalton and Wallington)

I have a couple of disparate points. We have heard a lot about children being victims, which clearly they are in the overwhelming majority of cases, but occasionally children will perpetrate the violence. The measure does not apply to children under 18, so I wonder whether you are happy that existing legislation on domestic violence that is perpetrated by those under 18 is adequate.

Secondly, I think that we heard from Dr. Steve Connor and Brian Moore that it is extremely important that the perpetrator hears that it is the police taking action and that the police are responsible for taking action. However, you did not explain how you were going to ensure that the perpetrator heard that message. Is the fact that you will turn up and walk into someone’s household where, as I think Jane Keeper said, the person’s response is, “Oh, I was only beating up my wife”, going to be sufficient to convince the perpetrator that it is the police taking the action and not the victim?

Finally, I was a bit surprised to hear you, Brian Moore, say that you did not know how many cases might turn up in the magistrates courts. I would have thought that officers often come back saying, “If only we could get this victim to take action” or “If only we had the powers to take action for them”, and you would therefore have a feel for the number of cases. However, if you do not know, perhaps the Minister has done the homework on the impact that this change might have on magistrates courts, in terms of increased demands on their time and resources, and if so he might give the Committee that information when he responds to questions this afternoon.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Does anyone want to intervene quickly? We have precisely four minutes before we need to wrap up.

David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)

Does the chief constable agree that this measure has been discussed across government with the Ministry of Justice and that it therefore has the support of the MOJ in its pilot?

Tom Brake (Liberal Democrat, Carshalton and Wallington)

Children as perpetrators first, perhaps.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Ceri Goddard, do you wish to add anything?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Jane?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Shall we finish with Brian Moore? You have been drawn into this.

Tom Brake (Liberal Democrat, Carshalton and Wallington)

Are you advocating that the Bill should be changed to allow a DVPN to be issued against those who are under 18? Currently, it is clearly stated that people have to be 18 or older.

Tom Brake (Liberal Democrat, Carshalton and Wallington)

Perhaps some ministerial feedback on that?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

On behalf of the Committee, I thank our five witnesses most sincerely for the informed and passionate way in which they have represented their organisations and responded to what, in some cases, were very detailed questions from members of the Committee. So, to all our witnesses, I say thank you very much indeed. The information that you have provided will be most helpful in our deliberations.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Before I turn to Councillor Shona Johnstone, I have to say that Edmund King has anticipated what I was going to say next about briefly indicating an overview. You started by indicating the length of time you have been involved with the issue. Before I ask Councillor Shona Johnstone to introduce herself, will you complete the AA’s overview of the Bill in 60 seconds?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

The questioning will be started by Tony Baldry.

Tony Baldry (Conservative, Banbury)

If you come up with the areas, we will do our best to draft suitable amendments at least to test in Committee the extent to which we can include in the Bill the things Ministers are purporting to try to achieve.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

May I say, Mr. King, that if you supply information it must be available to all Committee members? If you sent it to the Clerk of the Committee, that would be appropriate. Copies will then be provided for every member of the Committee, including the Chairman.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Thank you. I am spreading the questions. I know that Tom Brake and Tony Baldry want to come back in again, but Andrew Rosindell has also caught my eye. Andrew.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I shall take Tom Brake, but then I shall come to Shona McIsaac and I apologise for my delay in calling her.

Shona McIsaac (Labour, Cleethorpes)

That is a percentage and not an actual number.

Shona McIsaac (Labour, Cleethorpes)

That is London.

Shona McIsaac (Labour, Cleethorpes)

It certainly is not on here. UK Parking Control Ltd is one of the biggest private parking companies in the country, I believe, and as I said, one of its biggest customers is McDonald’s, so if it is issuing these notices, it is doing so the length and breadth of the country and is therefore breaking your code of conduct.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Shona, would you like a response from Councillor Johnstone? I ask only because Mr. Troy has mentioned certain regulations and standards, and I wonder whether Edmund King and the Councillor Johnstone have any evidence that would either substantiate or in fact contradict what Mr. Troy has said in answer to your question.

Shona McIsaac (Labour, Cleethorpes)

That is absolutely fine, Sir Nicholas.

Brian Iddon (Labour, Bolton South East)

I am getting the impression that wheel-clamping should be banned completely and that we should move entirely to a ticketing programme. If someone’s vehicle is causing an obstruction, the police will remove the vehicle, whether it is a private vehicle or a company vehicle. The police would have the power to remove a vehicle under the law as it stands now.

I do not see any point in allowing clamping to take place. What is the opinion of our three witnesses? I ask, because the advantage of moving to a ticketing system is that, in order to get the information from the DVLA, you have to be a pukka company and not a cowboy company. If you laid down a code of conduct, you could police that code of conduct.

Shona McIsaac (Labour, Cleethorpes)

Such as a motorway service station.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Is there no responsibility on those who either own the land or will be clamping or ticketing on the land to put up signs that are visible both day and night, to ensure that people are aware of the problems they might encounter if they park there?

Douglas Hogg (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Unless outlawed.

James Brokenshire (Conservative, Hornchurch)

I should be interested in hearing from the other panellists.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

We have about 10 minutes. Two more people have caught my eye and want to ask questions, so could you be brief?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

That was very brief.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Even Mr. Troy?

Andrew Rosindell (Conservative, Romford)

If it was, would the three of you support it?

Andrew Rosindell (Conservative, Romford)

But the principle would be fine?

Andrew Rosindell (Conservative, Romford)

So we have consensus on those three key areas.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

That is a very happy situation.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Is there any final comment that our witnesses would like to make in approximately 20 seconds each, as we have less than two minutes until half-past 2?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

You have made that point many times.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Having come initially from local government myself, I have much sympathy, if I am allowed to express that view from the Chair.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

On behalf of the Committee I thank our three witnesses for the very full, informative and most helpful evidence they have given us. There is even some ground between the trade association and those who represent local government and the motorist. Thank you for coming to give evidence to us today.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I welcome both Ministers. It is pleasure to have you responding to questions from other members of the Committee. I do not think we will be interrupted by Divisions in the House and we can continue until 4 o’clock. If we need to go on a fraction longer, I am prepared to use my discretion, but I do not believe that will be necessary. As we will be covering a wide range of subjects with the Ministers, it would be good to deal with the subjects in the order that they appear in the very helpful briefing paper that has been prepared for our use. The first subject is stop-and-search powers.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

We paused then because I was very conscious of the duties of our Hansard writer. I suspected it would have been difficult to hear what was being said over the clamour of that bell. Please continue Minister.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

It is now 3 o’clock. Can we move speedily to the second section, which is on gang injunctions? I think we may need a little longer on the DNA database.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I have two more questions under this heading. May I suggest that we try to speed up just a little, as we have to finish close to 4 o’clock and we have the DNA database, domestic violence protection orders, and the return to wheel clamping as subjects on today’s agenda?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

You are lulling me into a certain sense, I have to confess. I call Douglas Hogg.

Douglas Hogg (Conservative, Sleaford and North Hykeham)

Fine by me.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

That is a very helpful offer from the Minister and I am sure that Douglas Hogg accepts it.

James Brokenshire (Conservative, Hornchurch)

That would be helpful in understanding how the document was prepared, the decisions that were taken, who prepared it and who conducted the peer review. As the Minister will appreciate, there were previously some sensitivities.

James Brokenshire (Conservative, Hornchurch)

I am sure the Minister will confirm that even the report indicated that there was a range—that it could be less than six years. Is the Minister saying that it is a question of judgment?

James Brokenshire (Conservative, Hornchurch)

I am sure the Minister will accept that simply because someone has been arrested a second time, it does not mean that they will have been convicted as a consequence of that arrest. That is one of the imperfect elements of the analysis.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Again, the Committee is grateful to the Minister of State. It is certainly very satisfactory from my point of view in the Chair. Does it satisfy Mr. James Brokenshire?

James Brokenshire (Conservative, Hornchurch)

I do not know whether Mr. Burns wants to intervene.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Are you seeking to intervene, Mr. Burns?

Simon Burns (Conservative, West Chelmsford)

Yes, I am on a point of clarification. The offer sounds extremely helpful and it would be extremely useful to the Committee, but only if we get the letter before we deal with DNA in the Bill. Given the time that Ministers tend to take to respond to MPs’ letters, we do not really want it for the Report stage.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I do not want to enter into extraneous matters, Minister, but I think you have gathered the point that Simon Burns made and I am confident that the letter will reach us in time. I look to you for a nod.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I am sure that is more than satisfactory to the Committee.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

If the Minister will do that I am sure it will satisfy the Committee.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

We now move to the next sector for discussion, perhaps quite briefly, which is domestic violence protection orders.

James Brokenshire (Conservative, Hornchurch)

Sir Nicholas, given the limited time that we have available to us, I wonder whether we might seek to get questions in now on the remaining parts of the Bill, because I fear that otherwise we will run out of time to ask them.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

We may well do. Is it the view of the Committee that there are no major questions to put to the Ministers on domestic violence protection orders?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Is that answer satisfactory?

James Brokenshire (Conservative, Hornchurch)

Yes. Thank you.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

We move on to the last section that I have highlighted, which we dealt with in our discussions with our first panel of witnesses this afternoon. That section deals with wheel-clamping, which is, of course, a highly contentious and somewhat sensitive issue.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

We have finished the items on our list, but I suspect that Mr. James Brokenshire wishes to raise another matter.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

This is an extremely appropriate time to end, with that last comment from the Under-Secretary. The Committee will sit again, under the chairmanship of Frank Cook, next Tuesday at 10.30 in the morning. The sitting will be in Committee Room 12.

I thank all hon. Members for their staying power and the way in which they have involved themselves in the questioning, which has been most helpful to the Committee. I thank, on behalf of the rest of the Committee, the Ministers for the frank and helpful way in which they have dealt with all the questions put to them.