Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill

Public Bill Committee, 3 March 2009.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

I have a few preliminary announcements. I apologise that we are in a less spacious room than we would wish. That is due to the pressure on space. The Speaker’s Committee is sitting today and it has priority for the larger room for which we made a bid. Hon. Members may remove their jackets during sittings if they wish. Mobile phones, pagers and so on must be turned off.

I remind the Committee that there are money and ways and means resolutions in connection with the Bill, copies of which are available in the room. Adequate notice must be given of amendments for them to be eligible for selection. For Tuesday sittings, amendments must be tabled by the rise of the House the previous Thursday. For Thursday sittings, amendments must be tabled by the previous Monday. As a general rule, neither I nor my co-Chairman, Mrs. Humble, will accept starred amendments.

Not everyone is familiar with the process of taking oral evidence in Public Bill Committees so I shall explain how we will proceed. We will first consider the programme motion. That debate is limited to half an hour. We will proceed to a motion to report written evidence and a motion to permit the Committee to deliberate in private in advance of oral evidence sessions. I hope that those motions will be taken formally. Assuming that the motion to sit in private is agreed to, the Committee will move into private session. Once we have deliberated, witnesses and members of the public will be invited back into the room and the oral evidence session will commence. We estimate that that will happen at about 11 o’clock.

If the Committee agrees to the programme motion, the Committee will hear oral evidence today, on Thursday and on next Tuesday morning before reverting to the more familiar clause-by-clause scrutiny next week.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

I beg to move,

That —

(1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 10.30 am on Tuesday 3 March) meet—

(a) at 4.00 pm on Tuesday 3 March;

(b) at 9.00 am and 1.00 pm on Thursday 5 March;

(c) at 10.30 am and 4.00 pm on Tuesday 10 March;

(d) at 9.00 am and 1.00 pm on Thursday 12 March;

(e) at 10.30 am and 4.00 pm on Tuesday 17 March;

(f) at 9.00 am and 1.00 pm on Thursday 19 March;

(g) at 10.30 am and 4.00 pm on Tuesday 24 March;

(h) at 9.00 am and 1.00 pm on Thursday 26 March;

(i) at 10.30 am and 4.00 pm on Tuesday 31 March;

(2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table:

TABLE

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

May I use this opportunity to welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Chope? It will no doubt be a delight to serve under your chairmanship, as always.

We understand the reason for the amendment to the programme motion and look forward to this stage of our considerations and to the scrutiny of the Bill.

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

May I, too, welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Chope?

We are happy with the programme motion and are grateful to the Minister and his colleagues for their work in putting the list of witnesses together. They have dealt with some of our initial concerns on that issue.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Copies of the memorandums that the Committee receives will be made available in the Committee room. The submissions received so far have been circulated and are available.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Just before we clear the room, I would like to put on record my appreciation for the enormous amount of help that the Committee has had from the Scrutiny Unit in preparing all the documents for today and subsequent sessions.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

We are now going to hear evidence from the CBI, the British Chambers of Commerce, the TUC and the Alliance of Sector Skills Councils. I welcome you and ask each of you to introduce yourself.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Before calling the first member of the Committee to ask a question, I remind everybody that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill. We must stick strictly to the timings in the programme motion agreed by the Committee. I hope that I do not have to interrupt mid-sentence to achieve our objective of bringing this section of questioning to a close just before 12 noon. Bearing it in mind that there are four of you, would witnesses please make their responses brief because otherwise we will not cover the range of subject matter that we have before us? I call John Hayes to ask the first question.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

My question is for the British Chambers of Commerce in particular. Are the changes in the management and funding of skills likely to bring greater organisational efficiency? Not that I want to lead the witness in any way, but in your submission you describe those changes as bizarre.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

I recall the very welcome support that the CBI gave to raising the participation age to 18. What is the CBI’s view on the need for local authorities to have at their disposal the tools to make raising the participation age a success by 2013—the time scale set out in legislation? Is that not a good reason for the delegation of 16-19 commissioning to local authorities?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Sorry.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Why do you think the YPLA will have to step in all the time when most of the arrangements for post-16 learning are set for most people? They will either carry on at school or go to college; those are well-established arrangements that are pretty much learner-led.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

My question is for the CBI, on that subject. When the Select Committee looked at the draft Apprenticeships Bill, you were asked by one of its members what you felt about local authority involvement and whether you thought that the model would be too prescriptive, and you said that it was a concern. Why did you say that?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

Would you therefore welcome greater emphasis in the Bill on the quality and standard of apprenticeships?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

Do you think that the Bill goes far enough in involving employers in that process? We are going to have a very complex new structure—we have mentioned local authority involvement already—and the Bill does not specify much about the issue of quality that you described.

Stephen Williams (Liberal Democrat, Bristol West)

The Minister has just mentioned raising the participation age in education and training to 17 in 2013 and 18 in 2015, but the sector skills councils have to move first. The Bill says that apprenticeships should be offered to all young people who want one, which is a hard-to-quantify figure. Do you think that the sector is up for it? Is there enough capacity among employers to offer sufficient apprenticeships to young people?

Stephen Williams (Liberal Democrat, Bristol West)

Are the 25 sector skills councils that you represent all adapting their thinking to prepare for the challenge that lies ahead?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

May I ask the BCC a question? You said that you thought that the arrangements in the Bill for the Skills Funding Agency were too bureaucratic. Can you give us more details about what you think is too bureaucratic and in what way?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

You think that the transition will be bureaucratic. You said that the new structure will be bureaucratic. In what way will it be too bureaucratic?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

Are there any elements in the SFA design in the Bill that you consider too bureaucratic that you can tell us about in detail?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

May I ask the CBI whether this is a good Bill?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

Would you say that it is broadly good on apprenticeships?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

What about the right to request time to train?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

And has the right to request flexible working been a disaster for British business?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

So we might expect to have the same hopes for the right to request time to train?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

May I ask the TUC whether this is a good Bill?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

I would be interested to hear from all the witnesses how they think we should balance what I hope everyone agrees is the importance of sustaining high quality in apprenticeships with setting standards. Concerns have been expressed that those standards become too high an obstacle. How do we balance sustaining quality and standards?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Do you agree that apprenticeships need to be mobile so that apprentices can work for more than one employer? In which case, how do you think it is best to regulate the transferability of the quality of an apprenticeship within that flexible framework?

Stephen Williams (Liberal Democrat, Bristol West)

Often, Government targets in one sector have a skewing or displacement effect—sometimes even an adverse one—on another sector. Given that the Bill places a duty on the chief executive of the Skills Funding Agency to find an apprenticeship place for every young person who wants one, is there not a danger that that target might be at the expense of post-19 adult apprenticeships? Employers might skew their offer to young people in order to please the Government and funding agencies and so on.

Stephen Williams (Liberal Democrat, Bristol West)

May I challenge Mr. Marshall’s assertion that we are running out of young people? I guess that that is a reference to demographic change over the next decade with the number of teenagers broadly falling, but that differs depending on the social sector. Broadly speaking, the number of working-class young people will fall, but the middle-class numbers will remain fairly flat, so university applications may not be affected. Is it implicit in what you are saying that apprenticeships may not be attractive to people from middle-class backgrounds, and is that not the challenge facing the sector? You have to ensure that an apprenticeship is a quality qualification that will appeal to all social categories.

Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)

On the subject of apprenticeships, what is the TUC’s response to the CBI, which states that apprenticeships should not be prescriptive?

Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)

I am glad to hear it.

Emily Thornberry (Labour, Islington South and Finsbury)

Are you so much in agreement therefore that you feel that the regulations that might be established by this Bill would satisfy both of you?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

So we have heard from Mr. Marshall that there is not a sufficient role for SSCs, and we have heard from the CBI and the BCC that there is inadequate concentration on employers. Indeed, the BCC briefing says that

“there have been constant changes to the further education public funding system during the previous 20 years. The shifting complexity of the further education system has served to disengage employers. Time should be spent on improving and reforming existing structures rather than creating new ones.”

So, there is an insufficient role for both employers and SSCs, and yet Mr. Wilson says that this is a good Bill.

Should SSCs have a bigger structural role and should employers be mentioned in more than two clauses in the Bill, which, as far as I can see, is the only mention that they get?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

Can the entitlement to an apprenticeship, which I think is what you are referring to, be delivered, in terms of the availability of apprenticeships, without a system that is built from the bottom up and that engages small and medium-sized enterprises? Also, on that specific point, should we see an equalisation of funding between adult apprenticeships and other apprenticeships, which is further to the point that Mr. Marshall made? Furthermore, should employers receive a direct cash bonus for every apprentice that they take on?

Mary Creagh (Labour, Wakefield)

I have several questions and would like to begin with Tom Wilson of the TUC. What difference is the ability to request time off, time to learn, going to make? In particular, how do your members, who have been very proactive in introducing union learning representatives, think that it will change things? I have seen some of the work that has happened in my constituency and it is transformational, so are there any plans afoot for members?

Mary Creagh (Labour, Wakefield)

Richard, you talked about time off. It is not time off: these people are not going off to sit and smoke cigarettes and read newspapers; they are going off to study. Do you think that the employer attitude to young people’s time off for study will change as a result of the Bill? What steps are you as an organisation taking to encourage employers in non-traditional apprenticeship sectors to offer apprenticeships? Fifty per cent. of the vacancies in the Wakefield constituency today are in the care sector, which, as far as I am aware, has no apprenticeships, no training pattern, and no skills and qualifications—though there are level 3 and 4 qualifications in that area. What are your employers doing, particularly on new growth in non-traditional apprenticeship sectors?

Mary Creagh (Labour, Wakefield)

Yes—Time to Train.

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

To follow up those questions on the right to request and Time to Train. We have heard from the CBI that they are fairly relaxed about the proposal and that, not to paraphrase too much, this is already practised by most of their members. In your experience, is it practised among employers? How big an impact do you think it will have on firms, in terms of the numbers of people who will take up training in the future?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

This is a tough question, but what increase do you think the proposals will lead to in the numbers of people who ask for time off to train and have that permission granted?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

Will the training be relevant to their existing employment or will it be something that helps them to move on?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

John, your organisation is not as enthusiastic about this part of the Bill.

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

Do you think that the measures will simply be a waste of time because they will ratify something that already happens, or do you agree with Mr. Wilson that a lot of employees will ask their employers for the right to train and take up training, making life more difficult for employers? Will the proposals have a dramatic impact on employers or will they just bureaucratise what happens already?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

So do you disagree with Mr. Wilson that these measures could be quite radical?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

I have a final question for the CBI. Does the disagreement between your two colleagues on the panel indicate that there are different expectations of what this right means? We have heard increasingly about Mr. Wilson’s staff, who are trying to improve the skills of the work force. With their encouragement, will there be a big upsurge in the demand for training? Will there be a clash between the many employers who will not wish to grant these training rights and the unions and others who will try to ensure that the rights are taken up?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

So you do not think that the right will have a dramatic impact on your members because they are already delivering about as much training to employees as you would expect under the new system.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Gateshead East and Washington West)

As Richard has just highlighted, the grounds on which an employer can refuse a request for training are quite wide. My questions will be directed to John Lucas and Tom Wilson. Tom, do you think that those grounds are too wide, and that the Government have gone too far? John, what other grounds could be included to give employers the right to refuse those training opportunities?

Stephen Williams (Liberal Democrat, Bristol West)

Supplementary to what Sharon was asking, the last Education and Skills Bill that we considered was about raising the participation age of young people. Suppose an employer refuses a request for time off for learning. Does that not put the young person in a catch-22?

Dawn Butler (Labour, Brent South)

You refer to good employers. What about the employers who are not as good? How would you suggest that we try to disseminate good practices to them?

Dawn Butler (Labour, Brent South)

Do you think that the Bill will not encourage those employers, who are not doing as well as the good ones you talked about, to participate in Train to Gain and to look at it more favourably than they do now?

Dawn Butler (Labour, Brent South)

My last question is, which of you and Tom Wilson has most contact with employees?

Dawn Butler (Labour, Brent South)

May I ask Tom the same question?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

Sir Michael Rake, chairman of the Commission for Employment and Skills, and of BT, recently said:

“There is no one I’ve met who doesn’t think the current system”—

for the management of the funding of skills—

“isn’t incredibly overcomplex.”

He went on to say that the system

“is ridiculous, both in cost of delivering, effectiveness of delivering and so on.”

Is he right? Presumably, Mr. Wilson, you are not a person whom he has met, as he has said that he has met no one who does not think that.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

Is not the point that the Bill does not do that job of simplifying the structure? I accept that the economy is complex, but Sir Michael said that the system for the management of the funding of skills was over-complex. So, does the Bill simplify the system, making it less bureaucratic and more employer-friendly, or does it reinforce some of the complexities that Sir Michael complained about regarding the old regime?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

I am sorry to interrupt with a supplementary question. When you said that last time, I asked whether you could give us any detailed information at all about what aspect of this very lightly sketched agency is bureaucratic. Perhaps since you said it the first time you have thought of some. It seems a bit odd to keep saying it, but to have no substantive explanation of what you mean.

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

Not the transition—the new agency. You keep saying that it is bureaucratic but you refuse to say how.

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

That is because they are an agency and they are not in the Bill. You would not expect to see that in the Bill.

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

Do you have some evidence or examples of disruption that you have encountered so far?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

If you could send me some details of disruption that you have encountered on the adult side I should be very interested. I have not heard of a single instance as yet.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

If you are going to communicate further information it would be better to communicate it to the whole of the Committee, either in the form of a letter or a memorandum. That applies to other witnesses who may feel at the end of the session that there is something else that they would like to contribute in writing.

Jeff Ennis (Labour, Barnsley East and Mexborough)

Continuing on the theme of the change in agencies and the abolition of the LSC—this is a general question and I have a more specific one on another matter—is there a danger that we are focusing too much on apprentices and to some extent will disregard the needs of adult learners?

Jeff Ennis (Labour, Barnsley East and Mexborough)

My second, more specific, question is directed initially to Mr. Wilson. One innovation in the workplace in the last 10 years or so has been the introduction of trade union learning representatives. They have played an enormous role in getting people to undertake national vocational qualifications for the first time. How do you see the Bill enhancing the role of trade union learning representatives under the new structure?

Jeff Ennis (Labour, Barnsley East and Mexborough)

I wonder whether the CBI and BCC representatives have something to say about the role that ULRs can play in the workplace in promoting suitable training opportunities for the businesses that they represent.

Stephen Williams (Liberal Democrat, Bristol West)

Following on from the question on ULRs, when I was on the same Select Committee as Jeff, I was impressed by the evidence given by ULRs with large employers. But small businesses, of course, do not often have unions, nor are they obliged to recognise them. Mr. Wilson, might not the duty, or the ability, for an employee to be accompanied by a union representative be too onerous for small businesses? Perhaps they should be exempted from that obligation.

Stephen Williams (Liberal Democrat, Bristol West)

In small businesses?

Stephen Williams (Liberal Democrat, Bristol West)

For the record, the Federation of Small Businesses is not here to give evidence itself, but that answer is directly contrary to what the FSB provided in its evidence.

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Gateshead East and Washington West)

Richard, on behalf of the CBI, will you tell us the LSC’s strength and weaknesses?

Sharon Hodgson (Labour, Gateshead East and Washington West)

Do you support the idea of a wholly integrated education and training system for all children and young people aged from naught to 19? Also, do you support the idea of a post-19 training system that is demand-led and that creates a one-stop shop of support for employers?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

We have a queue of people—John Hayes, the Minister, David Laws, then Alison Seabeck.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

Briefly, Mr. Wilson, you said that you did not think that the decline in adult learning was related to the focus on apprenticeships, but is it related to the focus that the Government have placed on accredited level 2?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

How far is non-accredited adult and community learning a route back to employment?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

Should sector skills councils have a bigger structural role than they are given in the Bill?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

I have several questions; one is supplementary to that last question. As opposed to the liberal mention in the explanatory notes about the importance of sector skills councils in the delivery of apprenticeships and how we effect the legislation, how do you want us to legislate on sector skills councils?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

And should we mention that in primary legislation?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

And you would like us to?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

My first general question expands that asked by Sharon to try to bottom this out in terms of the LSC reforms. Do the witnesses support the general principle of an adult learning agency in the form of a post-19, demand-led skills funding agency and a naught to 19 structure? Having moved from a divide at 16, wherever the divide is you need to ensure that the arrangements bridging it are smooth.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

I want to talk about that in a second. This question is about the principle. I will ask you about transition afterwards.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

On the transition, I am interested in whether you have any evidence to contradict my impression that, despite all the upheaval, LSC staff are doing a good job of sticking to task. They continue to deliver good outputs in their jobs. The period of transition and upheaval will continue as the Bill goes through Parliament this year and through its implementation next year. There will obviously be a relationship between that and the economic problems we are going through. People have different predictions about how long those problems will continue, but the implementation phase will go on at the same time. Have you any evidence of a disruption to the service because of the changes?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

I want to come back to you, Mr. Wilson, about the practicalities of the right to time off. As I think you indicated earlier, some employers may not be as enthusiastic as others about training opportunities. Also, as Mr. Lucas indicated, clause 39, which gives “permissible grounds for refusal” of the time off to train, is pretty sweeping and pretty subjective and general. What will you and your learning reps do if you have one of these meetings with an employer about training and the employer says, “Sorry, we will have to turn this down,” under one of those many categories—for example, “detrimental impact on quality”, “detrimental impact on performance”, “burden of additional costs” or “inability to re-organise work”? What happens if people just stick two fingers up, basically?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

What if they cite two or three of these fairly subjective categories?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

So you do not anticipate that you will need to take any action through tribunals or other methods?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

You are optimistic or pessimistic?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

John, from your position of somewhat greater scepticism or distinct lack of enthusiasm, can you envisage a large number of claims against the judgments of employers that will be made under the “permissible grounds for refusal”? Do you think that this will be an area of dispute between employers and employees?

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Devonport)

I apologise for being late; I was in a Delegated Legislation Committee. If these questions have already been asked, please disregard them.

My first question relates to the Select Committee report on the draft Apprenticeships Bill, which commented that the relationship between diplomas and apprenticeships was not entirely clear. Do you have a view on whether that situation has changed as a result of this legislation, or do you think that there needs to be further amendment?

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Devonport)

So, you see the linkages moving forward positively?

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Devonport)

Would employers have any views on that?

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Devonport)

May I come back to the capacity for assessing a significant number of new apprentices? Are there sectors where there are capacity issues in terms of the assessment of a significantly larger number of apprentices coming into the system?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

We have time for a very quick last question. Does the Minister want to have the last word?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

Richard, the new SFA will consist of Train to Gain, which is all about the National Apprenticeship Service making apprenticeships work for employers. The SFA design seems to me to be a really business-friendly, business-focused organisation, which is intended to work for business and will be demand led and employer led. What do you think?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

That conveniently brings us to the end of this evidence session. On behalf of the Committee, I thank our four witnesses for the evidence that they have given. You have helped enormously in our deliberations and scrutiny. May we now ask for the next witnesses to come forward please?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Good afternoon. Thank you for coming along. We have just one hour with this panel of witnesses. I hope that you will be able to keep your responses to our questions succinct so that we can cover the material. Can I begin by asking you to introduce yourselves so that it is on the record?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

I shall ask John Hayes to ask the first question.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

My question is aimed at Graham and Julian. Do you welcome the new involvement of local authorities in dealing with colleges and directing them to some degree?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

The operation of FE colleges will surely be complicated by the statutory rights of local education authorities to fund and plan education and to direct colleges to accept particular students. Indeed, the AOC brief, reinforced by the 157 Group brief, makes it clear that that is a concern. You talk about not confusing the role of LEAs with the leadership of colleges. Clearly, there are profound concerns about that. What is your estimate of the number of local authorities a college would have to deal with? Will that not be a bureaucratic muddle?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

Delivering funding for further education and sixth-form colleges through local authorities and the Young People’s Learning Agency is likely to create greater confusion, is it not? How can it be reconciled with the model of self-regulation which Andrew Foster recommended and both the AOC and the 157 Group endorsed?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

I will ask one question of you all and, so as not to get into trouble with the Chairman, I will ask you to be brief with your replies. What do you most dislike in the Bill and what would you most like to be amended by us? Feel free to be as critical as you like.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Say anything you like.

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

Do you think that it will take more staff?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Which of the two Ministers wants to speak?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

I shall of course give way to Siôn.

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

I will carry on questioning Ruth. On the adult side, there will be new structures and the same number of people will be dealing with several things that the LSC does not deal with such as the National Apprenticeship Service, the expansion of Train to Gain, the Adult Advancement and Careers Service and the skills accounts. Do you agree therefore that the administrative, regulatory and prescriptive side of what the LSC does will effectively be slimmed down and streamlined because the headcount will be the same?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

I wanted to ask Julian something else, but does he want to say something briefly on that issue?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

The previous group of witnesses said that we should not do this now, that the current staff will not be able to cope in the economic climate and that the strains and stresses are too much. You are effectively saying the opposite, which is that the problem is that we are leaving too many staff and not making the organisation slim enough. Do you think that the truth might lie somewhere in the middle, where we have located it?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

There has been a ballyhoo about how complicated it is going to be and how colleges will be unable to cope with that. However, the new Skills Funding Agency will have a single account management structure and a single funding conversation for colleges on the adult side. Do your members not tell you that that is positive compared with the multiple conversations that they currently have with the LSC and other funding bodies, and that they look forward to it?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

But on the adult side?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

But is a single account structure for colleges a positive thing?

Siôn Simon (Labour, Birmingham, Erdington)

May I ask Graham about the single account point? We are trying to make it easier.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Mr. Tuckett wants to join in.

Stephen Williams (Liberal Democrat, Bristol West)

The London Apprenticeship Company was recently established, and the Federation of Small Businesses states that the company has been particularly useful in helping small and medium-sized enterprises in London to find apprenticeship places and match them up with small employers. The AOC’s evidence seems to encourage group training associations, which are largely the same. Do you think that the Bill goes far enough in facilitating group training arrangements?

Stephen Williams (Liberal Democrat, Bristol West)

To be clear about that, the Association of Colleges would welcome the opportunity—perhaps the 157 Group might want to comment on this too—for colleges to be the formal employer of an apprentice in a programme-led apprenticeship programme.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Devonport)

In response to the first question, we heard from the Local Government Association that there are anxieties about working across local authority borders. Clearly, there are an awful lot of new responsibilities for local authorities in the Bill. So my first question is, broadly, how do you think that some of the transition preparation work is going, from a local government perspective?

My second question is specifically related to clauses 47 to 50, which are about young offenders. I know that the numbers are relatively small; we are talking about 3,000 young people here who would become the responsibility of the local authority. How confident are you that the transition and the care that those young people receive will be handled smoothly and well? I ask that because the last thing we want is those young people, who in some cases are already struggling with education provision, again falling between two stools of local authorities arguing about funding or anything else.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

I want to ask Alan Tuckett a question. How far do you think the Bill will go in reversing the serious decline in the number of adult and community learning places? There has been a decline of 1.4 million in the last few years, according to the National Institute of Careers Education and Counselling.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

So a more responsive system might involve a slimmer system altogether: deregulated colleges, a bottom-up approach, a highly localised system that placed more emphasis on a diversity of individual learning requirements—credited, non-accredited, different routes back into learning.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

I have one final question. The 157 Group says that it is concerned about the levels of powers coming to the Skills Funding Agency in producing draft specifications for apprenticeship framing standards. Both the Association of Colleges and the 157 Group have argued that there is not enough about capital funding for further education in the Bill.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

I shall resist the temptation to start a debate about the huge growth in capital funding for FE colleges and put my question in the negative, just to save time. Is there anyone, from the witnesses here, who disagreed with raising the participation age, and who therefore disagrees with the consequent shifting of the break in education from 16 to 19?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

That is helpful. The temptation is around 25.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

I will resist giving a lecture on what was in the recently passed Education and Skills Act 2008 and, in view of the time, ask a second slightly negative question. Given the broad, but not complete, support for making the break at 19, do any witnesses think that there is a better way of aggregating local authority commissioning of post-16 learning to create the single conversation, rather than the sub-regional grouping brokered by the YPLA route, which we designed and is reflected in the legislation?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

You are arguing not with the basic structure in the Bill, but with some implementation issues.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Ruth, then David and then Ann, if that is all right, Mr. Chope.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Do you think that the duty to give impartial advice, as set out in the Education and Skills Act 2008, is pertinent to that?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

We have to move on. I have Annette Brooke, then John Hayes, then Stephen Williams.

Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)

I want to change track and look at the new duties to co-operate with relevant partners and to promote well-being, which some of you have already touched on.

Some institutions have made the point that the duty to co-operate will affect their independence. I am interested in how positively or negatively you see those new duties.

Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)

Thank you. Another duty you will have relates to when force is used on students. Do you see that as onerous? Do you feel there is sufficient training in the use of force and in the reporting, which will be quite significant?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

Is there great likelihood of local authorities becoming proprietorial? Are they more or less likely to do so? Would any of you, if you had started with a blank sheet of paper, have constructed a management and funding regime of the type in the Bill, particularly with local authority involvement?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Can you keep your remarks brief as I would like to get two more colleagues in?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

This is not about direct funding. The Bill gives them a direct role of the kind you say is not helpful. This is not about being friends with your local authority.

Stephen Williams (Liberal Democrat, Bristol West)

I have a penultimate question and a final question. First, advice and guidance have been mentioned several times. The Bill will place a duty on those providing advice to consider the best interests of the pupil, but not necessarily to put forward all options to them. Are you concerned about whether advisers will be sufficiently independent of the setting in which they give the advice, which is likely to be a school in the early stages, to be truly objective about what path a young person should follow?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Can we come on to your next question and then I hope we can get the Minister involved?

Stephen Williams (Liberal Democrat, Bristol West)

My final question—Alan might want to comment on the advice to adults—is on the funding and policy direction. Might it be better to have a single adult funding council, bringing together higher education, further education and skills, so that there is policy coherence and funding coherence, and everyone can look to one quango, non-departmental public body or whatever it would be?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

It would be remiss not to take the last four minutes to ask Ann and David in particular how the sixth-form college sector differs from GFE colleges. Is it right that they should be able to self-determine under the Bill which they want to be? What benefit does a separate distinction offer, if any?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

But how are they different now?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

And stronger pastoral care?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Mr. Moore wants to have the last word.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

That conveniently brings us to the end of the time allocated for questions. Thank you very much, all of you, for coming along and keeping your answers so brief and relevant. We are most appreciative of that.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Order. I am grateful to the latest panel of witnesses for coming along. I think that it is best for the record if you could introduce yourselves briefly, one by one.

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

As we have five witnesses and a limited amount of time, I would be grateful if you could try and keep your responses to the questions brief.

Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)

I would like to start the session by turning the attention of the witnesses to some of the practical applications of the Bill, particularly with regard to academies in the first instance. Perhaps I should direct my question first to Dr. Moynihan.

The Independent Academies Association wrote to the Minister, Jim Knight, on 23 February. In that letter, the IAA wrote that the Bill was “deeply disturbing” and cited its concern about the role of the Young People’s Learning Agency and of performing assessments and the duty to co-operate with children’s trusts, which is also an element within the Bill. What effect will those measures have on the running of the academies in the Harris Federation?

Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)

You talk about potentially taking away some of the control and freedom of head teachers. Do you feel that there are elements in the Bill that may erode academies’ independent status?

Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)

May I ask Liz Reid a question? Independent schools in the Independent Schools Council are administered directly from the Department for Children, Schools and Families by a unit of about 12 civil servants. Are you happy that academies will be administered by the YPLA at a regional level?

Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)

Dr. Moynihan, do you agree with that?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

Are there any other members of the Committee who want to ask about academies? I know that Jim Knight does.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Thank you. I accept, Dan, that you are speaking on behalf of the Harris Federation, but the SSAT has a membership across the range of academies, so do you detect, Liz, any widespread concern from the sponsors or principals of academies about the move to YPLA?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Dan, from your point of view directly running accounts, how much contact do your principals and sponsors have with officials from the DCSF at present, and how much of that contact would transfer as part of the functions relating to open academies?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

What sort of issues?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Without wanting to labour the point, in terms of the need for some kind of resource between a Secretary of State agreeing a funding agreement and the independent academies acting as operating organisations, some kind of organisation is needed, either in or outside the Department, to provide that kind of support.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Fine. My other questions are on the move to behaviour partnerships and on the duty to co-operate. Liz, do you know how many academies are already in behaviour partnerships?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Accepting what you have said, Dan, about not wanting to be forced into partnership with particular people—perhaps by a local authority—and your experience that they may be mixed in how effective and helpful they are, why do academies want to be in behaviour partnerships? What do they offer?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Fine. Finally, what are the attractions of the duty to co-operate with children’s trusts? Where there has been that sort of co-operation, is it about the relationship with the local authority or is it something wider?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

So your principal concern is not the principle but the guidance that will attach to this duty and how it is implemented.

Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)

I would like to look at the other side of the coin of the questions that have been asked. Frankie, why is it important, if it is, that academies should have the duty to co-operate and promote well-being?

Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)

Les, can I ask you to comment on that?

Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)

There are tensions in some parts of the country. Do you think that those tensions can be resolved, given the obvious good will?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

I once heard Lord Adonis say, when he was working in education, that his long-term vision for the strategic oversight of the academies was that, once the programme had expanded and been accepted warmly by local authorities, it might come under the strategic oversight of local authorities rather than some sort of Young People’s Learning Agency, although the YPLA had not been envisaged when he made those comments. May I hear the views of Les, Elizabeth and Daniel—and possibly Frankie if she wants to add something?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

If the alternative was not this structure or the previous one but strategic oversight by local authorities rather than the YPLA, what would be the advantages or disadvantages?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

Would you be relaxed if most of the YPLA was dissolved once the process bedded in and if the LAs themselves did the job?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

Specifically on academies, why would you have an academy managed under the YPLA rather than a specialist school, for example?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

Why can they not be independent under local government, rather than under the YPLA?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

You are being very diplomatic. Perhaps it is time for me to bring on Dan. Is that okay?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

To return the oversight, not the governance.

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

I was suggesting that the oversight, not the governance of the individual schools might be returned.

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

This is my last question, Chairman—you have been very patient. The concern that you are expressing is that local authorities do not do the job very well and certainly have not done so in the past.

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

But I think that you are also saying that they do not do it well now. Most of our secondary schools are still under the strategic oversight of local authorities. If you are right that many of them are not doing their job effectively, we ought perhaps to be thinking of even more schools going under the YPLA, not LAs. Is that not the logic of what you are saying?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

But are there not loads of other schools that are in very similar circumstances, but which are not academies and do not plan to be academies? There are lots of schools with very deprived catchments which are not academies and which rely on their own leadership, governing bodies and the LA’s oversight to perform. We should be very worried if you thought that the LA’s were not doing that.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

Is there a risk that including academies in the list of statutory partners in children’s trust boards undermines the advantage of the academies’ independent status? I am mindful that Dr. Moynihan said earlier that academies needed freedom to make decisions autonomously. How do you reconcile that necessary freedom with this statutory change?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

In that context, there have been cries, perhaps even howls, of protest from some associated with the academies movement that there has already been substantial erosion of their independence and freedom. I am thinking of the letter from the Independent Academies Association to the Minister last month, which made that point far more forcefully than I have made it here.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

Perhaps I can help you with the detail. The letter from Mike Butler states:

“It appears that with every consultation, each missive and even new legislation from the DCSF, there comes further erosion of the independent status of academies.”

Do you agree with that or not? What are these erosions? Or is this just an invention?

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Devonport)

Local authorities have expressed concerns that the YPLA will increase the performance assessment burdens placed on local authorities. Will you elaborate on that, Councillor Lawrence, because there does not seem to be anything in the Bill which suggests that burdens are significantly different?

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Devonport)

I assume that you have made that point to Ministers on more than one occasion.

Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)

I did not take part in the debate on Second Reading, but due to the vagaries of parliamentary procedure, I find myself serving on this Committee, so I hope that you will forgive me if I am slightly behind the curve. Dr. Moynihan, you say that where there is a failing secondary school, an academy will come in and improve the education being provided. Will the head teacher of that academy be required to take on the teaching staff of the failing secondary school, or will he be allowed to start afresh, picking his own team from the outset?

Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)

But can the head teacher say, “Actually, I’ve reviewed the quality of staff, and they’re part of the problem. I don’t want those seven over there”?

Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)

It is a bit odd, is it not? One would think that if you really want to make a go of it, you must give those super-duper, highly-paid excellent head teachers the freedom to play their hand and pick their team.

Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)

It is that easy, is it? You can get rid of underperforming staff in a year or two? That is not what I have heard from some head teachers.

Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)

One last question. Should it be tolerated for a teacher who is clearly out of their depth to remain in a classroom for a year until they are removed? That might work for the teacher, but it certainly does not work for the students, does it? What rights do the students have to a first-rate education?

Sarah McCarthy-Fry (Labour, Portsmouth North)

I want to move on to children’s trusts, particularly with Frankie and Les; perhaps you can both answer this. Do you think that a greater consistency of approach to children’s trusts across the country will be an improvement? How do you think that children’s trusts are working at the moment?

Sarah McCarthy-Fry (Labour, Portsmouth North)

I have one quick supplementary for Les. The LGA expressed concern about the Secretary of State’s ability to add functions to the children’s trust board. However, they are constrained by needing the consent of Parliament. Do you think it is right that some flexibility should be built into the structure? It will need to be adapted.

Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)

Following on from that answer, am I right to say that you see the lead member as having the ultimate responsibility for children and young people’s plans? If not, where do you see that responsibility lying?

Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)

How do you see the relationship between children’s trust boards, local safeguarding boards and children’s centres advisory boards, and where will the responsibility lie? How do you see that network of organisations working practically and how will responsibility rest with elected members?

Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke)

You feel that there is a lack of clarity in the Bill and hope that further provisions will come forward to clarify it.

Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)

May I return to an earlier question on which I did not get a clear answer because of the way in which I asked it? I specifically wanted to ask whether making the children’s trust board statutory was necessary, desirable or undesirable. I hope that in this series of questions I can bring in Kieran, because he will have some input into the children’s trusts.

Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)

Can I just ask Kieran for his perspective? Would making the board statutory make things work better for you?

Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)

It sounds as if you are moving beyond a talking shop and getting down to business now, since the Audit Commission report.

May I go back to the children and young person’s plan? Again, it is really right across the board. If this plan has been created by a statutory children’s trust board, why should the local authority have full ownership for it, as you described?

Annette Brooke (Liberal Democrat, Mid Dorset and North Poole)

But if you had one vote on the board, as the lead member, why would you be fully accountable?

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Devonport)

Can I draw views from the panel on the school behaviour partnerships? How do you see your role within them and what are the positives and negatives from your perspective? That is probably a question for Elizabeth, Daniel and Frankie; although Les may have a view, those three should start.

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Devonport)

And to local discretion?

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Devonport)

Are you suggesting that academies should be able to pick and choose whether they opt in or out of partnerships?

Alison Seabeck (Labour, Plymouth, Devonport)

Are there any other views on that?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

On the issue of support services and moving to advice and guidance, clause 35 relates directly to careers advice and suggests that apprenticeships should be offered to young people if the provider thinks that is appropriate. Has the Bill gone far enough on strengthening the mechanism by which quality independent advice can be offered to young people?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

Indeed. The explanatory note to clause 35 says that

“the governing body of a secondary school, or its proprietor...or the local education authority”

is to ensure what careers advice is to be given to a student. Would not a better system, based on your last answer, be to have some independent careers service, perhaps located in the school but separate from the school to avoid the conflict of interest that you describe?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

From what I hear from careers advisers, the system described would have the added benefit of re-professionalising careers advice as a separate professional discipline, would it not?

Liz Blackman (Labour, Erewash)

Frankie, is transferring responsibility back to the local authorities potentially a better model for delivering RPA—raising the participation age?

Liz Blackman (Labour, Erewash)

And you definitely see the potential for better integrated services right across the piece from nought to 19?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

As a neutral Chairman, I will call the Minister next.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

I have a supplementary point to what Liz was asking Frankie, and I would like to bring Les in as well. This morning, we heard that there were concerns from sixth-form colleges and, to some extent, from FE colleges about independence and the extent to which commissioning would be impartial. I want to probe that to see whether that is the progressive view coming from the leadership of the ADCS or whether it is a universal view across the local government sector.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

That is the professional view. Are there not circumstances in which politicians will, perhaps understandably, worry about the fragility of a school or college in their patch and will, therefore, look to channel commissioning locally, rather than follow the learners needs?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Can I check that Kieran has the same confidence that that will happen on impartial commissioning?

Christopher Chope (Conservative, Christchurch)

I think that we need to move on because there are a lot of people who still want to ask questions and we have finite time.

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

Part 10 of the Bill deals with schools causing concern but seems to cover local authorities causing concern as well. Liz, do you think that there is a problem with quite a few local authorities not challenging school failure enough in their area?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

Do you think that the Government are seeking to tackle that in the Bill in broadly the right way? Or do you think that it is either defective or that there is something else the Government could be doing which would be better?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

Thank you very much. Can I ask Les and Frankie about that? What is significant about those powers, as I understand it, is that there are already powers of intervention in this respect—from the Secretary of State to a local authority—but that they are based on schools that have already been categorised as requiring special measures or significant improvement.

Clause 192 gives much more sweeping powers, as I understand it, for the Secretary of State to make judgments about schools that he or she thinks should be doing better on various measures, and then allows intervention against the local authority in the first respect to deal with that. That brings us to the point of whether the Government are able to effectively assess schools not already picked up by Ofsted, or some other body independent of the Government, that are not performing well. Are you two happy with the powers in clause 192, or do you think that you are going to end up with unreasonable decisions for interventions being made?

David Laws (Liberal Democrat, Yeovil)

That is a slightly different point, because what you are potentially arguing is that local government might need more powers to intervene to drive up standards. This is slightly different because it is giving the Secretary of State the power to intervene against you when he thinks that you are not identifying schools which have deficiencies.

The rest of the debate is in Hansard.