Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Bill: Pre-legislative Scrutiny — Question

House of Lords, 28 January 2009.

Baroness Neville-Jones (Conservative)

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will submit the draft Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Bill to pre-legislative scrutiny.

Lord West of Spithead (Labour)

My Lords, the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Bill is based on the current arrangements for extending pre-charge detention. These arrangements have been agreed by Parliament and work well. Pre-charge detention has been the subject of extensive debate over the past 18 months. The draft Bill has been made available for comment and Parliament will have the opportunity to debate the Bill if it is introduced.

Baroness Neville-Jones (Conservative)

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. It seems to me to amount to saying that the Government will not submit this Bill to pre-legislative scrutiny. I am sure that the House will be disappointed, as that is contrary to good legislative practice. Does the Minister accept that it could be counterproductive not to submit the Bill to proper legislative scrutiny? If the extended period of detention, which might be incorporated in the Bill, is applied to a single suspect who then goes to trial, the defence could argue that the circumstances of the investigation undermine a fair trial, as the jury, being aware that Parliament had approved such a drastic measure in a particular crisis, may be tempted to assume the suspect's greater guilt. There is a problem in proceeding that way.

Lord West of Spithead (Labour)

My Lords, I understand why the noble Baroness asked a longer question. When one tries to shorten things, one gets into a terrible state of affairs, as I have recently. One has to be careful.

A copy of the Bill has been placed in the Libraries of both Houses; it is on the Home Office website; copies have been sent to the Home Affairs Committee; and it was the subject of a very lengthy debate during the Commons consideration of the Lords' amendments, during which there was widespread support for the Home Affairs Committee to scrutinise the Bill. We are very happy for that committee to scrutinise the Bill and, although it is not within my gift, I hope that Parliament is given an opportunity, if it wishes, to discuss any Home Affairs Committee report.

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, given that the Home Secretary produced the draft Bill within hours of this House rejecting the original clauses in the Counter-Terrorism Bill, what substantial changes have been introduced into the draft Bill, compared with those in the original Bill which this House rejected, which would make it more likely that this House will approve the draft Bill?

Lord West of Spithead (Labour)

My Lords, the safeguards in the Bill are the current ones for people who have to remain in pre-charge detention up to 28 days. There are a number of differences between the two Bills, such as the requirement in legislation for there to be a grave, exceptional terrorist threat. Effectively, in that situation, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary will decide that it should be brought into play because, for the security of the country, she will have decided that the investigation of terrorist suspects needs a longer period than 28 days. I could go through a whole number of other things which are different, but the safeguards are exactly the same as for the current 28-day period.

Lord Grocott (Labour)

My Lords, having seen the magic phrase "pre-legislative scrutiny" in the Question, may I take this opportunity to congratulate the Government on their record of developing and extending the whole system of pre-legislative scrutiny, which cannot sensibly be applied to every single Bill as there is no demand for that? None the less, it is an improvement in our parliamentary proceedings. I say, in this bipartisan spirit, well done to the Government.

Lord West of Spithead (Labour)

My Lords, I thank my noble friend, not least because I actually asked for the statistics on that, thinking that it might be raised. In 1997, less than 5 per cent of Bills had any pre-legislative scrutiny and in the past year the figure was 33 per cent. My noble friend is absolutely right: we have quite a good record.

Lord Thomas of Gresford (Liberal Democrat)

My Lords, does the Minister accept the premise behind the Question of the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, that introducing the Bill in a moment of crisis will completely prejudice any subsequent trial against the individuals concerned?

Lord West of Spithead (Labour)

My Lords, I do not accept that. Of course, the Bill was roundly defeated—suffering the largest defeat ever in the Lords is one of my successes—but we hope to get something in place before there is a period of crisis. I am a great believer that legislation passed in an emergency generally is not good. That is an issue. It is necessary to have this; it has been simplified; and it is very small and focused. It has been placed in the Library and on the website and has been debated in the other place, and people have had a chance to look at it. On that basis, our position is sound.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Independent Labour)

My Lords, the noble Lord had great praise for the Government's record on pre-legislative scrutiny and I agree with that. Could we, perhaps, go a little further and have post-legislative scrutiny to see that the legislation that has been passed is working properly and is not oppressive?

Lord West of Spithead (Labour)

My Lords, this is going a little beyond what I can say on the Floor of the House without getting into serious trouble. As I said, we have a good record on pre-legislative scrutiny. We also have a good record on counterterrorist work. We have a new counterterrorist strategy, which will be put to Cabinet and will come out in the next couple of months. Over the past 18 months, we have done a huge amount to make this country safer, of which I am very proud. It does not mean that we are safe, I am afraid, because there are still severe threats out there. However, some very good work has been done and I am proud of that.