Housing and Regeneration Bill

Public Bill Committee, 10 January 2008.

Further written evidence to be reported to the House

Clause 1

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

May I say, Mr. Benton, what a pleasure it is to see you in the Chair? I wish you a happy new year—a peaceful and prosperous one—and I extend my wishes to all members of the Committee and to officials.

We now come to the traditional clause-by-clause deliberations after our excursion into oral evidence, which is still a recent thing for the House. I have been a member of various Public Bill Committees over the years, especially in this Committee Room. I particularly remember Committee deliberations on the Gambling Act 2005 and various Finance Acts, but only now do I wish that I had taken note of Committee procedure. However, Mr. Benton, I am sure that you will keep me in order.

I wish to spend a little time on clause 1. I do not want to reiterate what was said on Second Reading, but it is important to give the Committee an idea of the reasons behind the establishment of the Homes and Communities Agency, which will help us in subsequent discussions and argument. The HCA will be the Government’s housing and regeneration agency for England. It will join up the delivery of housing and regeneration, and it will bring together, in one place, the functions of English Partnerships, the investment functions of the Housing Corporation, and a range of work carried out by the Department for Communities and Local Government.

That policy direction was prompted by the outcome of a housing and regeneration review conducted by the DCLG in 2006. That is not to say that the existing organisations failed over the past 10 years—far from it. Indeed, the impact assessment states:

“Since 1997 the Government and its delivery agencies have made substantial progress”.

It says that we now have

“77 per cent. of new homes being build on brownfield land compared to just 56 per cent. in 1997.”

It also states that

“English Partnerships has reclaimed over 6,000 hectares of land and has levered in £5.5 billion of private-sector investment into regeneration projects”,

and that

“between 2006-08, the Housing Corporation is building 33 per cent. more homes for only 15 per cent. more resources.”

It is important that we build on those changes. The housing and regeneration review was undertaken to consider the institutional structures for delivering the Government’s housing and regeneration objectives and to make recommendations for improvement. It set out to review the delivery chain for realising Government objectives, and to ensure that the delivery chain would be sufficiently robust to deliver future policies.

I alluded to the fact that the review was prompted by recognition of various features of the existing housing and regeneration delivery structures that would limit our ability to achieve policy ambitions and which would act as barriers or obstacles. Several specific features were identified, including fragmentation and complexity, with funding streams delivered in silos, often to differing time scales and with overlapping remits and products. Indeed, the review found that about two thirds of spending by EP and the Housing Corporation and the relevant departmental spending targets on common objectives, such as the state of regeneration, mixed-use regeneration, strategic growth and low-cost home ownership, showed a lot of duplication.

The review also noted timing and sequencing issues, a scarcity of key skills sets, particularly those necessary to lever in private investment and, to be frank, the over-involvement of the Department in delivery. It also found information asymmetries between different public sector providers and the private sector that increase the costs to the taxpayer, and the need for an updated set of powers to match new and modern methods of delivery.

We were convinced that those features led to the under-exploitation of market opportunities and publicly funded assets, co-ordination failures and frictional costs and raised land costs due to competition within the public sector. As a result, we recognised that, over the longer term, the existing arrangements would not continue to deliver the Government’s ambitions for housing and regeneration.

Significant progress has been made towards improved housing and regeneration outcomes in the past 10 years, but looking ahead to the next decade, the Government’s ambition is to deliver 3 million new homes by 2020, mixed sustainable communities and social mobility. Creating the HCA is a key part of delivering the necessary step change and driving forward the delivery of homes and communities.

In our oral evidence sessions, Sarah Webb of the Chartered Institute of Housing acknowledged the potential of the agency to deliver the needed step change:

“From the very start of this process, we have been supportive of the concept of a national housing agency, now called the Homes and Communities Agency, and of a regulator that is based on customers. The agency has the potential to create a step change in housing supply, which we need, and which will have an impact on customers.”——[Official Report, Housing and Regeneration Public Bill Committee, 11 December 2007; c. 17, Q25.]

The HCA will be a national solution to our current national housing challenge—growing demand and rising aspirations for affordable decent homes. It is an opportunity recognised by a wide range of stakeholders, including the Local Government Association, the National Housing Federation and the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, to name but a few. We cannot afford to miss that opportunity.

Even those who were sceptical of the need to create the HCA or the benefits of doing so are coming round to the idea. For example, in his good evidence to the Committee in December, Lord Best said:

“I have come to the view that this is the moment for a change. Joining up the different parts of government that deal with the delivery of new homes and the regeneration of old places is an enormous task...It is better that they are in one place.”——[Official Report, Housing and Regeneration Public Bill Committee, 13 December 2007; c. 107.]

That brings out an important point. The HCA is about delivering new homes and the regeneration of old places, both of which are essential to the creation of integrated sustainable communities with viable regenerative and economic bases. The agency is about not only delivering housing numbers, but regenerating and reinvigorating the communities in which those houses are built. It is not about imposing solutions on communities. We share the view of the Campaign to Protect Rural England, which has stated:

“We think that meeting housing needs and increasing housing supply is best achieved by working with communities, rather than imposing particular solutions or actions on them.”——[Official Report, Housing and Regeneration Public Bill Committee, 13 December 2007; c. 79, Q126.]

Where possible, we expect the HCA to work with communities and their representatives to deliver solutions that are appropriate to those localities and the needs of their people.

The CPRE also acknowledged the need for the HCA. In evidence to the Committee, it said:

“CPRE recognises that we need to supply more homes to house a growing number of households. We believe that the new agency and the provisions in the Bill should help considerably in achieving that objective.”——[Official Report, Housing and Regeneration Public Bill Committee, 13 December 2007; c. 77.]

It also said that

“we welcome the potential that the new agency brings to tackle some of the very difficult problems that are inevitably associated with difficult-to-redevelop sites in certain locations.”——[Official Report, Housing and Regeneration Public Bill Committee, 13 December 2007; c. 83, Q133.]

This is our aim. We intend the agency to be a generator of new investment. That was picked up in the evidence sessions by the National Housing Federation, which said that

“we strongly welcome this Bill, particularly the part relating to the creation of the Homes and Communities Agency. We have been supportive of that concept and think that the objectives for and the powers of the new agency are sufficiently broadly drawn for it to be potentially a real generator for new investment. That is welcome.”——[Official Report, Housing and Regeneration Public Bill Committee, 11 December 2007; c. 33.]

We recognise that the creation of the HCA presents us with an opportunity to achieve sustainable benefits for the long term. As the CPRE said in oral evidence to the Committee:

“There is a good opportunity when dealing with publicly owned land, or an authority with planning powers, to achieve a broader outcome in the long term, such as homes and communities’ interests and better environmental standards.”——[Official Report, Housing and Regeneration Public Bill Committee, 13 December 2007; c. 79, Q126.]

We do not intend to miss that opportunity. Part of not missing it is ensuring that the right administrative and governance arrangements are in place to secure an effective organisation.

Schedule 1, which clause 1 introduces, sets out requirements regarding the make-up of the board, including how members will be appointed, resign, be removed and be paid. It sets out arrangements for the appointment, terms and conditions and pay and pensions of staff, including the chief executive. The Secretary of State, instead of the HCA, will appoint the first chief executive. We consider that essential for the chief executive to help to shape and structure the new agency at the earliest opportunity. Schedule 1 includes provisions on how the HCA organises its committees, including delegation of the agency’s functions to committees. It includes arrangements on how members of committees can declare interests.

The detailed arrangements for how the HCA will report on its performance, including its accounts, are set out in the schedule. The agency must prepare an annual report on how it has exercised its functions during the year, and it must also prepare a statement of financial accounts for each financial year. Should the Secretary of State consider it necessary, she can direct the agency to provide any other information she requires on its property or the exercise, or proposed exercise, of its functions. Alongside that, other parts of the Bill provide that the Secretary of State can issue directions to the agency, which could prescribe further reporting requirements to Government, although we recognise that as a non-departmental public body, the agency will be independent and should not be unduly directed by Government.

Finally, a tasking framework will be drafted, defining the strategic priorities and objectives of the agency. A financial memorandum, sitting alongside the management statement, will be drafted to set out in detail aspects of the financial framework within which the HCA is required to operate.

I welcome your indulgence, Mr. Benton, in allowing me to set out the position at length, and I hope that I have not been out of order in reiterating what was said on Second Reading—if I were, I am sure that you would have told me quickly. It is important to set the tone of the debate for this and future sittings by making clear the intention behind the agency.

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I echo the welcome that the Minister gave you, Mr. Benton, and your colleagues and officials who will look after us in the next few weeks as we get to grips with the Bill following our evidence sessions. I also echo his welcome to all members of the Committee, which is pretty knowledgeable about the subjects that we shall discuss. We have those who have held significant ministerial positions on the subject and Back Benchers who know their way around it well, so the quality of debate and discussion should be high. I hope that that will benefit those who observe the proceedings or who pick up on them in Hansard and various special journals.

I wish to indicate to the Minister our general approach to the clause following the debate on Second Reading. As he knows, we are not necessarily against the establishment of the HCA. The concerns that we mentioned on Second Reading, which will be echoed in Committee, were raised to query and scrutinise the plans and to ensure that the plans achieve the objectives that have been set out. We are not convinced that the background and the Government’s record are as rosy as the Minister has said.

My experience in this place is reasonably extensive, and when there is too much consensus on something there is a danger that the eye is taken off the ball. My life and career are scarred for ever by the experience of the Child Support Agency. As colleagues will know, the plans for it went through the House many years ago with great consensus and perhaps not enough scrutiny of what would actually happen. When the parcel was left in my lap—I hasten to add that it was not my idea—and I became the Minister with responsibility for setting up the CSA in 1992, the problems became obvious after a year or so and I began to wonder about the House’s scrutiny process.

It was interesting to listen to the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert), my Front-Bench colleague who speaks on home affairs, at the conclusion of yesterday’s debate on the Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill. He expressed concern that we are not spending enough time on really important issues. We are concerned to use a generally consensual attitude to scrutinise carefully what is being done.

I say that in relation to the establishment of the HCA, because I am not necessarily convinced that the spur for it comes from a great raft of success in the Government’s housing and regeneration policy. Yes, there are intentions, but we are not so sure about delivery. Accordingly, it is essential to ensure that the agency is designed to solve the problems that have occurred, rather than bringing together an already well functioning, well oiled unit that will continue to roll out and deliver on the Government’s objectives.

As the Minister knows, the Government’s house building record is not particularly good. An average of 173,000 units a year were built in the Thatcher and Major years, but the average has been 145,000 a year under the present Government. The agency is designed to clear out the glitches and make things happen, so we must ensure that the problems associated with the failure to deliver the required supply of housing are tackled. In creating the agency, we must give consideration to the way in which it will work, its objectives and the values that drive it, rather than just crossing our fingers and hoping that yet another reorganisation will do the job.

The Opposition do not query the Government’s good intentions on regeneration. As I expressed on Second Reading—I shall come back to this during the early part of our considerations of the Bill—city and urban regeneration has received a tremendous boost in modern times. The work of Michael Heseltine and the city challenge initiative have been continued and developed by this Government. People outside this Committee want political parties to work together on this matter and to acknowledge good work.

It is not true that 1997 was year zero for everything, and it was certainly not year zero for urban regeneration. The Government have carried out some good work, but real holes, gaps and problems remain. There have been a plethora of initiatives on regeneration and a huge number of schemes, such as the neighbourhood management, neighbourhood renewal and neighbourhood support initiatives, the coalfield scheme, the community champions fund, the new deal for communities, the crime reduction initiative, the playing fields initiative and the community green spaces initiative—I could go on.

Some 10 years after the election of a Labour Government, however, and despite the collective impact of those initiatives on society, questions and concerns remain about social mobility and about whether the problems of deep deprivation in areas of extreme poverty have been turned round. We are not querying the good intentions, which we share—we would like credit for doing so—but we are not convinced that the approach has worked. Accordingly, to what extent will the HCA’s regeneration remit help us to meet the objectives behind those initiatives and the large amounts of money that have been spent in so many places? Current analyses of the money spent and results gained do not come down particularly strongly in the Government’s favour. We shall, therefore, query and test out precisely why the agency should deliver any better.

I do not want to dwell too long on clause 1. However, we will also test out the remit of the agency on related matters, such as disability, accessibility, sustainability, design quality and the powers of the agency, which are extensive. Also, will the Minister tell us what guidance will be produced on how the various powers and objectives will work, if that cannot be put in the legislation, in order to ensure that, right from the start, we do not gloss over anything and that we understand what it is about?

In conclusion, we will be as constructive as possible during the course of our consideration of the Bill, which is quite natural because we expect to inherit a lot of what is being discussed relatively soon, so we might as well make it good. However, as always, we have concerns: if this is a top-down solution to problems that would benefit more from a bottom-up analysis and delivery, we are not content to let it go. The Government are very strong on plans, 10-year programmes and initiatives, but not so good on delivery. If the HCA is just another attempt to snow over the problems by saying, “Don’t worry, everything will be all right. We have done this, but you will have to wait a few years for it to settle down before there is any delivery”, it will not be good enough.

That is our approach to clause 1, which provides for the establishment of the HCA. With the caveats that I have mentioned, we accept clause 1 and are ready to proceed from there.

Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr. Benton. First, I apologise because I have a cough and a cold, although I do not suppose that I am the only one. I want to take the opportunity provided by this clause stand part debate to declare an interest: I am a director of a family building and property company. There may be a perception of interest, because the Bill is wide-ranging, and I hope that hon. Members will bear that in mind. My interest should stand on the record of the Bill’s proceedings.

I welcome the Minister to his first major Bill, and my hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield, who now speaks on housing for the Conservative party. I have always found that Committee proceedings involve a lot of work, but that one is put on top of one’s brief and taken into areas where one would not necessarily go, so it is a useful experience. I should like to welcome the Liberal Democrat spokesman, the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), and I shall—on another occasion. No doubt there are organisational problems, which will be ironed out in due course as part of the Liberal Democrats’ aspiration to double their representation in Parliament.

Schedule 1

George Young (Conservative, North West Hampshire)

I, too, welcome your benign chairmanship, Mr. Benton, as somebody who will be with our Committee proceedings for the next few weeks.

The schedule gets to the nuts and bolts of the HCA, and I shall press the Minister on one or two issues, particularly one that I raised in oral evidence. The last paragraph of the schedule states:

“The Secretary of State...may—

(a) appoint the first chief executive”.

I asked the Minister for Housing about that in oral evidence, and she said:

“We intend to appoint the shadow chief executive as soon as possible”.——[Official Report, Housing and Regeneration Public Bill Committee, 13 December 2007; c. 142, Q234.]

That was four weeks ago, so I wonder whether the Minister can update us on the appointment of the chief executive.

The schedule also deals with the members of the board, and the Minister for Housing also said last year that she hoped to have a shadow board up and running “from April next year.” I take it that means that in April this year there will be a board. It would be helpful if the Minister were to outline the progress that is being made with the board’s appointment.

The schedule also deals in paragraph (4) with staff. Again, it would be helpful if the Minister were to outline whether the existing staff of the Housing Corporation and English Partnerships will be transferred to the HCA, or whether the process that was used during the reorganisation of the health service will be adopted, whereby people in effect have to bid for their own jobs. Many people who work in those organisations hope to become HCA staff, and it would be helpful if the Minister were to outline their position during the transition period.

The schedule also deals with property, and it would be helpful if the Minister could say whether the Government propose to do what they have done with other departmental bodies or quangos, and re-locate them outside London, or whether they intend the body to stay in London. As he knows, the Housing Corporation is based on Tottenham Court road. Does he intend to base the HCA in London, or does he have other ambitions for it?

Again, this may be getting slightly ahead of the game, but does the Minister envisage a regional structure, replicating the organisation of the Housing Corporation? I take it that he wants the staff all in one place—that he wants to co-locate the relevant people from English Partnerships with the relevant people from the Housing Corporation, rather than have them continue to work in separate buildings. It would be helpful if the Minister were to share some details and colour in the schedule’s black and white prose, so that we have an insight into the way in which the organisation will start.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I appreciate the comments made by the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire. I am a great admirer of his; he is a great talent for the Conservatives, and it is a shame that he will spend the rest of his career in opposition, but we all have our crosses to bear. He mentioned that 1997 was not year zero, and I understand and appreciate that. I am a lover of history. I did a history degree and I have read about Lord Heseltine in history, but perhaps we can confine the issue to history and move forward. That is what the agency intends to do.

I also welcome the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire, who has considerable experience from his former remit as a Minister. He raised some interesting and pertinent points about the governance of the agency, and I hope that I can reassure him. The appointment of the chief executive is crucial if we are to ensure that the agency hits the ground running and its agenda moves forward quickly. I know that Members have been concerned about that, so may I point out that Sir Bob Kerslake, who was the chief executive of Sheffield city council, has been appointed as the agency’s shadow chief executive. He will start in March 2008. The recruitment process for the Chair will continue, and Sir Bob will be involved with that incredibly closely. His appointment is a good one, not least because the Committee will tease out the importance of local government in the delivery of homes; Sir Bob knows the local government sector extraordinarily well and will, I suspect, be a great champion of it. His appointment is very welcome.

I should like to make a wider point about the broader functions of the agency. I am sure that you will rule me out of order, if necessary, Mr. Benton, but I hope that you will not. During our oral evidence sessions, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing said that various funding streams from various parts of the Department would be delivered through the agency. That is all part of the broader concept that the communities and local government will set the strategy for housing delivery and regeneration policy, and that various agencies, be they local government or the Homes and Communities Agency, will deliver that. At 9.30 am, my right hon. Friend is laying a statement before the House about this. I have advance copies for Committee members, setting out the functions of the agency in relation to delivery. It sets out in some detail what delivery functions the agency will provide, including, to give a quick summary, decent homes, housing market renewal and the Thames Gateway. So, we have fair sight of the statement that will be laid in four minutes and we can have a chat about that.

The right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire made some other points about schedule 1. He talked about approval of terms and conditions for staff. Given that the new agency will be a non-departmental public body under DCLG, staff terms and conditions will have to remain broadly in line with those for departmental staff so that aspects such as pay bargaining remain consistent. For that reason, the Secretary of State will have to approve the terms and conditions of staff in the new agency.

The right hon. Gentleman asked what would happen to current English Partnerships and Housing Corporation staff. I must point out that because we are talking about the skills base and, perhaps, skills shortages, this certainly is not a project about reducing staff numbers. It is about better using the expertise of existing bodies. The structure of those new bodies has not yet been determined. No compulsory redundancies have been identified and if any redundancies are required, it is estimated that they will be met through natural wastage. All staff who transfer to the agency will be protected. Similarly, although pension provision for staff is still to be determined, it is certain that staff who transfer to the new agency will be offered pensions equivalent to what they currently have. With all of that, the transition team is drawing up plans for the transition of the delivery of the various work streams to be achieved.

The right hon. Gentleman also asked where the HCA would be located. It is proposed that it should have a national and regional presence, with offices in London and each of the English regions. It is expected that it will be configured along the lines of the Government offices, but specific decisions about the location of the headquarters and regional offices will be made as part of the transition process. Ministers will look at the location of existing offices, and at their lease terms, as is consistent with the recommendations of the Lyons review. I hope that I have reassured the right hon. Gentleman.

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

On a point of order, Mr. Benton, although I am grateful for the Minister’s good intentions in bringing to our attention the written statement that was laid before the House this morning, I must put on record my concern that something pertinent to the clauses that we are discussing has been produced half an hour after the Committee began its sitting, given that it could, presumably, have been produced at any time this week. This information is pertinent, as it refers to one of the amendments that I have tabled about the Thames Gateway. To produce it at half past 9 on the morning of our first sitting strikes me as most impertinent of the Department. I do not hold the Minister responsible. If he had not told us about it, we should not have known, but I wonder whether an adjournment would be in order, while we consider the matter and make the adjustments that we need to make to the work we have to do in this morning’s sitting, so that we can start again this afternoon.

I thank the Minister for bringing the matter to our attention, but ask him to tell the Minister for Housing of my concern that something so important has appeared at this stage, when I see no reason why it could not have been dealt with yesterday, to give us much more notice and help us in our deliberation. Will he consider an hour’s adjournment of the Committee, so that we can consider the matter and get on with it this afternoon?

Joe Benton (Labour, Bootle)

Order. That is not strictly a matter for the Chair, although I take the point that the hon. Gentleman makes, and have perhaps some sympathy with what he says. I do not think that it is appropriate to adjourn the Committee. Now that the hon. Gentleman has made the point, it will be observed and perhaps recorded in some other quarters for deliberation. It is a fair point, but does not justify my adjourning the Committee at this stage.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Benton. I welcome your ruling on the matter of an adjournment. I recognise and welcome the sentiments expressed by the hon. Gentleman, as he set out his concerns. A balance was needed and I was keen to ensure that the whole House would be aware of the written ministerial statement that was laid down at half past 9, and that the Committee would, during its deliberations, have sight as early as possible of things that were extremely pertinent to the matters under discussion. The hon. Gentleman was very fair about acknowledging that. A balance was needed and I intended to give Committee members as much notice as possible.

Joe Benton (Labour, Bootle)

Order. I think that it was a fair point, and I hope that it is noted in other quarters that, where possible, any information pertinent and relevant to the Committee should be made available well before the Committee sits.

Clause 2

George Young (Conservative, North West Hampshire)

I beg to move amendment No. 13, in clause 2, page 1, line 11, after ‘supply’, insert ‘, accessibility’.

The amendment would extend the remit of the Homes and Communities Agency to cover increasing not just the supply and quality of new housing but also its accessibility. This is a consensual, bridge-building amendment that I know the Minister will want to accept as evidence of his good will and as an improvement to the Bill. By increasing accessibility, I mean ensuring that disabled and older people can enter and use the new homes to be provided under the Bill as independently as possible.

The genesis of the amendment was a meeting that I attended before Christmas of the all-party group on disability, which was attended by the Minister’s colleague in another place, Baroness Andrews, on housing policy and disability. The meeting welcomed the concept of the HCA as a body to produce more housing and regeneration, and protect tenants, but concern was expressed there that the proposals in the Bill to increase housing supply were out of sync with other Government objectives on accessibility. Those concerns were reinforced when, over the Christmas holiday, I re-read the Housing Minister’s speech, which was circulated at our last meeting, entitled “A Vision for 21st Century Social Housing”. It was a long and thoughtful speech with a lot in it about supply, affordability, tenant empowerment and mobility. Yet there was nothing in it about the houses themselves or about the specific subject of the amendment—ensuring that houses will be fit for purpose.

To summarise the concern expressed at the meeting, it was that the Government want to bring about a step change in the supply of housing, but that parallel policies on accessibility kick in after the policy is under way, instead of at the same time, or earlier. The object of the amendment is to ensure that the pledged 3 million new homes, to which the Minister referred earlier, will be truly sustainable and designed according to the needs of the current and future population, taking account of demography.

Over the next 20 years, the number of disabled and older people will increase by roughly two thirds, and we must factor that into the design of the homes being planned. At the moment, 1.4 million people need accessible accommodation, including 329,000 disabled people who are living in housing totally unsuited to their needs. On top of that is a nationwide shortfall of about 330,000 wheelchair-standard houses. As well, approximately half of all disabled children live in unsuitable housing.

Disabled people are more likely than others to live in a house that does not meet decent homes standards. The relatively small amount of new social housing in recent years has also hit disabled people hard. The thinking behind the amendment is to promote the lifetime home standard, which the Minister will know has been around since 1991 and is promoted by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. The standard includes design features to ensure that a new house or flat will meet the needs of most households. It does not mean that every family is surrounded by features that they do not need; it means that a new flat or house can be adapted to future needs and is flexible enough to meet whatever comes along in life—a teenager with a broken leg, a family member with a serious illness or even people carrying in heavy shopping.

The lifetime home standard has been around for some time. I should like the Minister to give us some assurances about its application to the properties that will be built under the Bill. In 1999, part M of the building regulations was extended to include new housing, but those standards ensure that disabled people can visit homes, not live in them. In March 2004, the Government announced that they would review part M with a view to incorporating the lifetime home standard within two years. That commitment was reiterated in 2005 in “Opportunity Age”, which said that measures would be in place by 2007. An advisory committee was set up to begin the work, but it was suddenly disbanded.

Meanwhile, measures are in place to ensure that publicly funded housing will meet the standards by 2011. It is not clear to me why we must wait that long to extend the measures to publicly funded housing. The lifetime home standards have been incorporated into the code for sustainable homes, and the Government plan to phase them in, applying the relative levels over the next few years—level 6 this year, level 4 in 2010 and level 3 in 2013. Although that is helpful, it will take six years for most private builders to adopt lifetime home standards, and even that is not guaranteed. We also do not know the time scale for including all that in the building regulations. Perhaps the Minister could shed some light on that, as it would then bite on all new homes of all types and tenures.

It is not clear whether local authority new build, which the Bill promotes elsewhere, must meet lifetime home standards. There is a pressing reason why it should. The Minister will know what pressure there is on disabled facilities grants. They are mandatory grants to which people are entitled, but there is a long waiting list and the work is quite expensive. It involves retro-fitting at great cost the sort of facilities that I believe should be designed in at the beginning. The additional cost of building to lifetime home standards ranges from £165 to £545 a dwelling. That compares quite favourably with the average disabled facilities grant, which is factored in later.

Unless we address the layout and design of housing stock, the housing problems facing disabled people will continue and may get worse. That is why I believe that the HCA should make the need for accessible, flexible and adaptable housing a priority. Without the amendment, nothing in the Bill will ensure that the issues that I have mentioned are addressed. I hope that the Minister will look benignly on the amendment in order to promote the supply of accessible housing and reduce housing inequalities for disabled people.

Nick Raynsford (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)

I welcome you as Chairman of this Committee, Mr. Benton, and look forward to serving under your chairmanship. I also draw attention to the interests that I declared during an earlier sitting. I hope that they stand on the record and do not require a repeat, as the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire said at the time.

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman about the importance of this matter, but I do not agree that the amendment is appropriate. The argument was presented in a way that probably did not do justice to part M of the building regulations, which has improved accessibility significantly. The changes to that part of the regulations were not simply about making it easier for people with disabilities to visit other homes but required all new housing to meet accessibility standards. That has been important in the provision of level access, setting the width of doors and other such matters that make it easier for disabled people to gain access to all homes that are built. I accept entirely that that applies only to new housing and that it takes time to work its way through.

In his comments on year zero, the right hon. Gentleman was perhaps not as generous to the Government’s record as he might have been. The Government in which he served declined to amend part M of the building regulations to introduce changes requiring level access and accessibility improvements in all new housing. The Government who were elected in 1997 committed to and introduced those changes, and also supported the application of the lifetime homes standard. He rightly highlighted the work of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation in propagating that concept, and the Government gave, and still give, considerable encouragement for the application of lifetime homes by registered social landlords and others.

There has been progress, but accessibility is important and it is right that there should be a short debate on it. I hope that the Minister will indicate clearly the Government’s commitment to continuing work to improve accessibility. My only reservation about the amendment is the usual one of the list principle. When one particular item is added to a list, others are excluded by inference. The right hon. Gentleman knows only too well that many other important housing issues could be added to the list of objectives that the HCA ought to pursue: energy efficiency is an obvious and topical example. We should not single out accessibility, but it is extremely important and there is more to be done to improve it and propagate lifetime homes. I hope that the Minister is able give us an assurance us on that.

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I rise to support the amendment tabled by the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire and to respond to the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich. Having been the Minister with responsibility for disabled people, I rather regret that we did not do more to change the standards required. Of course, there was the inevitable tussle between Departments, but there is now greater recognition that the matter is not just about disability but about ageing.

When amendments are tabled on behalf of disabled people, or when people talk about the disabled lobby, there is sometimes not enough understanding in the wider community that virtually everything that is done for people with disabilities, particularly in relation to space, movement and housing, inevitably benefits anyone who is ageing as well as women with buggies and so on. A different approach needs to be taken, and the long-term needs of the people who benefit from such changes as my right hon. Friend suggests must be borne in mind. Will the Minister indicate how the agency will deal with that?

Such improvements also help to deal with a problem that we shall come back to from time to time. Despite the fair wind being given to the establishment of the agency, for reasons that we have already explored, a niggling factor in the back of many minds is that it may turn out to be just a numbers machine. Because the Government have set targets and understandably want to meet them, worrying that they have not in the past, there will be huge determination just to churn out units. When that is coupled with changes over the years that have meant that the space given to each housing unit is much smaller, it puts extra pressure on the needs of those with disabilities and those who are ageing. The Royal Association for Disability and Rehabilitation reckons that in the next 20 years, there will be an increase of between 57 per cent. and 67 per cent. in the number of disabled older people. A significant number of new people will be coming into that time of life, with needs that are not discretionary for them but crucial to their enjoyment of life—their accessibility to those things that we all too often take for granted.

I would be grateful if the Minister would indicate how he and the agency intend to handle that. I welcome my right hon. Friend’s amendment.

Andrew George (Liberal Democrat, St Ives)

Briefly, I wish to respond to the point made by the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich about the risk of that leading to the creation of a list of further requirements within the measure. I wish to support the proposal.

My professional experience prior to coming to this place was in undertaking housing needs surveys. I was making recommendations for the development of new schemes to meet social housing need. We often found that it was sensible to recommend that schemes be easily adaptable—in most cases they were very small schemes. In other words, the configuration of the building itself should ultimately be adaptable—there might not be a need straight away for disabled access and for ground floor, walk-in baths and those types of utilities, but the buildings themselves should be easily adaptable for when a need might arise at some later stage.

I strongly support the introduction of the measure; this is an appropriate amendment, which does not portend the creation of a long list. In many recommendations of developments in the past, that seemed to be appropriate. One does not need, at the point of construction, to go to the expense of including and installing all of the utilities, but simply to allow for ease of adaptation at a later stage.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I thank the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire for the amendment and for the positive and constructive manner in which he articulated the arguments. I would expect no less from him. I find the manner in which the debate is being conducted pleasing and encouraging. I understand where he is coming from with the amendment, but it is not necessary. In the Bill, the agency already has the object of improving the supply and quality of housing in England, with a view to meeting the needs of people living in England—that includes ensuring provision of housing of all tenures and types appropriate to the needs of community. If those needs are for accessible housing, that is what the agency must provide or facilitate the provision of. We will ensure that the Homes and Communities Agency is tasked to provide or facilitate the provision of accessible homes appropriate to the needs of the community.

During the debate I was struck by the points made by the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire points about ageing. I absolutely agree with them. I am looking into the subject. Some of the facts are striking. We talk about household growth formation and how that is increasing—something like 223,000 new households being formed every year. That is why we have a housing shortage that needs to be addressed—with 3 million new homes by 2020. Older households make up 48 per cent. of year-on-year household growth. That is a phenomenal amount, which we need to address. The over-85 population will increase by 85 per cent. by 2031. The hon. Gentleman also mentioned that a third of older households lived in non-decent housing, particularly privately rented. We need to address that. Older people spend between 70 and 90 per cent. of their time in their homes. They must have an appropriate, decent home in order to do so. Appropriate and safe housing is critical in increasing independence and health. Preventive measures could save up to £3 billion in NHS costs for over-65s, by reducing falls and accidents. The Government recognise the growing challenges and opportunities that are posed by demographic changes and, in particular, by the ageing population.

I reiterate the need for the lifetime homes standards, which the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire mentioned. Those set out criteria that make homes more adaptable to people’s changing circumstances, to create homes that are specifically built to ensure that they will adapt to the needs of people at different stages of life and enable people to remain independent—which is very important—and in control of their lives at all stages. Our intention is for all homes funded by the public sector to be developed as lifetime homes by 2011.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich mentioned the list principle, in a manner far more eloquent than I could, and I absolutely agree with his sentiments. I have no wish to elevate one strand of housing need above another. In order to deliver its object, the agency must improve the supply and quality of housing in England according to the needs of the community. Singling out any specific strand of housing would place a duty on the agency in relation to that type of housing.

Although accessible housing is hugely important, I do not think that it should be pursued at the expense of other forms of housing that are equally important and just as necessary to the community as a whole. I understand that, as a country that is ageing steadily, we will need to address this issue and it will be one of the major concerns and strategic priorities of the agency. However, I do not think it necessary, on the grounds of the list principle mentioned by my right hon. Friend, to put it in the Bill.

In summary, I do not think that it is wise to emphasise one type of housing in primary legislation. I therefore hope that the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire will withdraw the amendment.

George Young (Conservative, North West Hampshire)

The debate has been helpful and informative and I listened to the argument about rejecting the amendment on the list principle. I then turned over to page 2, and what did I find but a list? It states, “‘infrastructure’ includes—” followed by a list of eight things. I view with a little suspicion the argument that there cannot be a list on page 1 but the Government can have a list on page 2.

Nick Raynsford (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)

The right hon. Gentleman knows only too well from his experience that the list on page 2 is necessary because there is a reference to the term “infrastructure” and that without a definition, people could quibble about what that is. Rather different issues apply on page 1, where the object is

“to improve the supply and quality of housing”.

I would argue that “quality of housing” embraces a wide range of issues, including accessibility, energy efficiency, good design and other elements. If any one item is singled out, rather than having a comprehensive list—as there is on page 2—there is a danger of misinterpretation.

George Young (Conservative, North West Hampshire)

There is a limit to the extent to which we can develop this line of argument. As to whether the list on page 2 is comprehensive, it says that the term “includes”, which presumably means that other things may be included. I had not intended to provoke the right hon. Gentleman into a vigorous defence of his record.

If one looks at the provision for disabled people, there has been an evolution and an improvement over decades. The Major and Thatcher Governments did things that had not been done under the Callaghan and Wilson Governments. My object in tabling the amendment was to gently nudge and to try to accelerate the process that had gone on over many years, under many Governments.

I asked the Minister a number of questions and perhaps he could drop me a line, for example, on whether local authorities have to build to lifetime homes standards or not. I might have raised some other issues that he did not deal with in his response. However, I have no wish to get these proceedings off to an acrimonious start by pressing this matter to a Division, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Andrew George (Liberal Democrat, St Ives)

I beg to move amendment No. 34, in clause 2, page 1, line 11, at end insert—

‘(aa) to carry out, or provide for the carrying out of, regular assessments of the nature and scale of housing need in England,’.

Joe Benton (Labour, Bootle)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendment No. 35, in clause 2, page 2, line 2, after ‘subsection (1)—’, insert—

‘“housing need” includes the condition of those who are homeless and those who are housed in insecure, unsatisfactory or overcrowded accommodation.’.

New clause 7—Rough Sleepers Steering Group—

‘(1) The Secretary of State shall, within six months of the coming into force of this Act, establish a body (“the Steering Group”) to review the services provided to rough sleepers in England and draw up an action plan to provide adequate hostel and permanent accommodation.

(2) The membership of the Steering Group shall include an equal number of members from central government, local government, registered providers of social housing and other relevant charitable organisations, with an independent chair.

(3) The Steering Group shall make recommendations within six months of its establishment in respect of the matters referred to in subsection (1).’’

Andrew George (Liberal Democrat, St Ives)

It is a pleasure to move the amendments tabled by me and my banished colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), whom I hope will be joining me later in the proceedings.

The purpose of the amendment is to give the new Homes and Communities Agency the responsibility for ensuring that there are regular assessments of the scale of need for new social rented housing and low-cost home-ownership market housing. The reason behind it is that the largely desk-top base of the assessments that are often made by official bodies does not necessarily reflect the nuances within the market and the need for housing; nor is there the reassurance in the Bill that many of us would hope that the Government could provide that there will be regular updates of those assessments of housing need.

Much of the purpose of the Bill is in response to assessments, such as that undertaken by Kate Barker, of the need for housing in forthcoming years. My view is that that assessment is rather two-dimensional. It does not take into account the existence of sub-markets in those areas where those who, quite rightly, wish to express a need for housing do not necessarily have an opportunity to do so through any official channels. They do not feel that there is any chance of getting social housing in the foreseeable future; therefore their numbers do not exist on the local authority registers. They do not walk into local estate agents because the housing there is way beyond what local people on local wages can afford. Therefore, that need should be assessed.

I mentioned earlier that, in a former life, I was involved in the process of assessing local housing need, when housing departments undertook door-to-door surveys of that need in the early 1980s. When those surveys were started, local authorities were saying, “We know that there is not a need, because we have checked the local authority register and looked for the names of those who have sought properties in this particular village.” That particularly applies to rural housing need. Because no, or very few, people indicated a wish to live in that particular village or parish, the assumption was, therefore, that there was no need at all. They had not properly taken into account at the time that very few properties were ever likely to become available.

In areas such as my own in West Cornwall where, under the right-to-buy scheme, properties were being sold off and in some cases sold on and lost from the local community altogether, with some becoming second homes, people have not had an opportunity to express their need for affordable accommodation. There is no likelihood of their ever obtaining that type of accommodation within the area where their job is, where they have been brought up, where they have an attachment and wish to remain living. I believe that the Government need to take into account the need to undertake rather more sophisticated assessments of housing need. The new agency should accept that it has a responsibility to update that assessment of housing need, particularly in those areas where there is a sub-market. The new agency should accept that it has a responsibility to update that assessment of housing need, particularly in those areas where there is a sub-market. It is a little like the logic that transport operators use when they say that there is no need for buses on Sunday.

Andrew Love (Labour, Edmonton)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way—I have been following his argument carefully. What I have difficulty with is whether it is appropriate for that task to be carried out by the HCA or whether something more locally based, such as a local authority or even another body at regional or national level would be more appropriate.

Andrew George (Liberal Democrat, St Ives)

There is nothing in the amendment that states that the HCA is required to undertake parish-based housing need surveys. In my view, it is not a requirement and I do not think that the amendment implies that the HCA should undertake that. However, it does need to keep an eye on whether the basis on which targets have been set for social housing, low-cost home ownership and market housing during a planned period is sufficiently sophisticated with regard to the numbers that pertain at the time.

There are many parts of the country where a local market exists. The Barker review seems to imply that, where there is a pressing need for affordable housing, it is possible to build a way out of that need. It suggests that, by keeping many thousands of market homes in an area, equilibrium will be achieved and the needs of working families on local wages met by the magic of the market through demand and supply relationships. However, there are many parts of the country where the market does not operate in that way. I mention my own area, west Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly, because it is a very good example of a part of the country where there is a sub-market, and where the housing market is also a receptacle for the desires of people across the country, particularly better-off people, who wish to buy properties for investment and recreation. I think that this is a rather simplistic view of the way in which the market works, because no matter how many houses are built in that area, as far as market housing is concerned, we will never achieve the equilibrium that would allow local people to meet their housing needs.

Across Cornwall, for example, the number of properties has more than doubled over the last 40 years and it has been one of the fastest growing places for housing in the United Kingdom—I believe that only Buckinghamshire and Cambridgeshire are above it. That will perhaps surprise many people who assume that Cornwall does not change much. In fact, it has seen phenomenal housing growth over 40 years but, despite heaping over 120,000 houses into the area, local people’s housing problems have become phenomenally worse. Simply building houses is not the answer to the problems. A more sophisticated understanding is required.

I hope that the Minister will take on board not only the fact that the Homes and Communities Agency, when making an assessment, should take into account the existence of what is often a need that cannot be expressed through normal and official mechanisms—such as through local authorities—of the type that I have described in rural areas, but the way in which sub-markets work. That process would be a great deal better informed if my amendments were accepted.

Furthermore, amendment No. 35 contains a proposal for a better and more detailed assessment of the extent of homelessness. Impressive attempts have been made by the Office for National Statistics, for example, to assess homelessness at the time of each census. I was certainly impressed by the amount of field work undertaken in many areas during the last census to uncover the level of homelessness across the country. However, those who understand the problem often found that figures in those assessments massively underplayed the extent of the problem and of the existence of an underclass and sub-market of demand that was not expressed in local authority waiting lists. Of course, that is because it could not be expressed there.

This is not just a question of ruthlessness. A mass of people were living in insecure housing. In my area, which no doubt I shall continue to mention time and time again, some people live in very insecure circumstances. They might have a roof over their head on a given night—many live in winter lets, caravans, garages or, in some cases, in my part of the world, in caves and elsewhere—and so are not always picked up by the field work. Those living in such insecurity are often not picked up by any other measures either. Often local charitable organisations, such as the Salvation Army and Shelter, which do excellent work on the ground running soup kitchens and finding hostel accommodation, see a much larger population with housing needs than it appears that the Government have been able to see through their official work. Having said that, I congratulate the Government and the ONS, in particular, on having undertaken the kind of field work that they have done in recent years.

On that basis, I hope that the Minister accepts that the purpose of amendments Nos. 34 and 35 is to ensure that the Homes and Communities Agency undertakes more than just a remote and, perhaps, unsophisticated, desk-based exercise. As I have made clear, I do not suggest that the agency itself undertake such surveys, but it might want to commission them to reassure itself about the accuracy of the information that it receives, such as on the level and type of need, on how that splits between social housing and low-cost home ownership, and on other aspects of the intermediate market, and of course for market housing itself. I believe that the need for that is far stronger than was expressed in Kate Barker’s review and elsewhere. I do not think that we are at that point at the moment. The work of the agency will only be as good as the quality of the assessment of needs that it itself undertakes.

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

I join the Minister and other hon. Members in welcoming you to the Chair, Mr. Benton, for what I know will be constructive proceedings in Committee. Opposition Members welcome many elements of the Bill, particularly the establishment of the Homes and Communities Agency. We recognise that the agency, whose objectives are set out in clause 2, has a wide remit, but elements of the remit appear to be missing from the Bill, and one of those is recognition of the problem of homelessness. I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House recognise that concern.

One thing that is frustrating when one starts to discuss homelessness is that there is an immediate reflex reaction among politicians to blame one side pre-1997 or the other side post-1997. I hope that in this Committee we can get away from that simplistic analysis of the issues of homelessness and talk about the real problems, which are certainly serious. Charities tell us that there are probably 400,000 or 500,000 homeless people. It very much depends on the definition used. The Government’s definition categorises four different areas of homelessness in temporary accommodation, but however we measure them, the numbers are certainly large.

A piece of work with which I was recently involved showed, for example, that there are 130,000 homeless children this year and that figure has doubled in the past 10 years. I said at the start that I do not want to turn this into a hugely political issue, because I believe that nobody in the House has come into politics to make people homeless. I accept that of Labour Members and the Government as much as I hope that they accept it of Conservative Members. It is not an objective of good people going into public service to make people homeless. My point is not to suggest that for one moment. However, it is important to recognise the facts and, using the same measurement that has been in place for a while and looking retrospectively, we can see that the number of homeless children has doubled. That point needs to be recognised, but the Bill has, surprisingly, relatively little to say on the subject.

A particularly extreme example of homelessness is rough sleeping, which has been addressed, quite rightly, by the current Government. They set themselves a target of reducing rough sleeping by two thirds, which was achieved. They set themselves a further target of reducing rough sleeping to zero, which has not been achieved. In fact, there is evidence that the number of rough sleepers is moving the other way; there has been a 9 per cent. increase in London over the past year alone.

Andrew Love (Labour, Edmonton)

New clause 7 specifically mentions rough sleeping, yet the hon. Gentleman in his introductory remarks talked about the wider issue of homelessness. Why does his new clause not include the wider issue, rather than being aimed specifically at rough sleepers?

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

I introduced the new clause by talking about the wider issue of homelessness because rough sleeping is, I suppose, the most acute aspect of the wider issue. If the hon. Gentleman is arguing that we should have a broader definition in the new clause to include the wider problems of homelessness, that is certainly interesting. If his colleagues are prepared to back a wider definition, that should be worked on.

Lyn Brown (Labour, West Ham)

I am getting frustrated and I felt the need to speak.

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

The hon. Lady is a Government Back-Bencher and will have to be terribly careful about that.

Lyn Brown (Labour, West Ham)

I realise that, and I am getting anxious about it, too.

The situation would be easier if the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield were to be so good as to differentiate between street homeless and families that are housed, because I presume that he acknowledges that the children of whom he speaks are in fact housed in temporary accommodation by local councils. They are not street sleepers. When he talks about street or rough sleepers, I should be grateful if he acknowledged that there are other issues—apart from the availability of homes—that cause people to sleep on streets, and that the Bill will not address those social and personal needs that people who are street sleeping encounter. If we can get our terms agreed throughout the room—

Joe Benton (Labour, Bootle)

Order. I think the point has been made.

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

I am grateful to the hon. Lady and agree with her entirely. One of my enduring frustrations when talking about homelessness is that people instantly imagine that one is talking about rough sleeping. It is one aspect—the most extreme, obvious and visual aspect—of homelessness, but it is not the major numerical element. She is absolutely right on that front, and she is right also to highlight the fact that when we talk about, for example, 130,000 children being homeless, we are not of course talking about street sleeping. One would trip over a child on every corner. The hon. Member for Edmonton is also right when he talks about the definition of the clause. I was merely talking about homelessness in order to introduce the most extreme aspect, rough sleeping, to which I turn now.

We know that work on rough sleeping has been going on for a long time. My right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire did a great deal of work, which all charities that I have visited recognise, in setting up something like—he will correct me if I am wrong—4,000 emergency hostel places. We began to see a dramatic decline in the number of people sleeping rough, and as I said, I recognise the efforts of this Government in taking that objective further and in reducing the number of people sleeping rough by another two thirds. However, there are problems.

One problem, which has already been referred to in amendments Nos. 34 and 35, is that the number of people sleeping rough is by definition a difficult figure to pinpoint. The problem is that local authorities are asked to go out and make a street count to find out how many people sleep rough, but they will not find all those people. It stands to reason, because they will be hidden in locations that are sometimes hard or dangerous to reach.

There is a further problem beyond that obvious and natural under-reporting: the reporting mechanism. Each local authority is invited to send in a list showing how many rough sleepers they have, which is bracketed for cases in which the local authority does not physically go out and carry out a count. The list will say, nought to 10, 11 to 20 and so on, and when it comes in, the Department will, for example, count a rough sleeper count of nought to 10 as nought, regardless of whether the local authority estimated five, six or seven people on the list. That leads to a consistent underestimation of the number of rough sleepers, and if one adds it up throughout the country and compares the figures with figures from authorities that do actually return them, as I did in a recent report, one discovers that rather than 498 people sleeping rough in this country every night, there are more likely to be about 1,200. Can I be certain of that figure? No, because it is impossible to know. It fails to account for people who do not appear on the rough sleepers’ register simply because they are never found. That is not what I am talking about. These are people who are under-registered by a system that fails to take them into account, so I should be interested to hear from the Minister whether there are any plans to improve on that historical system to reach a more accurate point of rough sleepers.

Andrew Love (Labour, Edmonton)

I thank the hon. Gentleman. Again, I am following his argument closely. Does he accept that there is a second function of collecting the statistics, and that is to show the trends in street homelessness? By measuring it over a period of time we can discover whether it is going up or down, and that is an important consideration in itself.

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

I absolutely accept the hon. Gentleman’s argument. This provides a measure that tells us that there was quite a dramatic reduction and tells us that it has started to turn around, particularly in London in the past year because of a number of different pressures. If we start to go into those now our discussion will go beyond the Bill.

I accept that it is important to have a measure. My criticism of that measure is that it could now be improved. It is important that that measure bears relevance to the actual number of people who are sleeping on the streets, rather than a red-blue-green measure of how well we are doing against an historical trend. I urge the Minister, perhaps through the Bill, to make that measure deliberately more accurate to the actual number of individuals.

Andrew George (Liberal Democrat, St Ives)

I simply caution the hon. Gentleman against taking too much of a trend from the sort of field work that we are talking about, because sometimes the trend is more a function of the quality of the field work over time than the underlying trend itself. If the robustness of the field work is greater, it will identify something of larger numbers than a less robust period of field work. I also warn him that the people who are rough sleeping are not simply a social problem, as was implied by the intervention from the hon. Member for West Ham; they are people with genuine housing needs.

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

The hon. Gentleman’s argument runs contrary to the previous intervention. I think that we are agreed that it is important to have a measure; I believe further that it is important that that measure is accurate against the real numbers, so that when the Government say that there are 498 rough sleepers each night that is an accurate number, whereas at the moment we know it to be inaccurate. I am not certain that there is any specific evidence to suggest that counts are less accurate now than they were previously. I suspect that because the agencies and charities that carry out these counts for local authorities are getting better at it over time in a process of continuous improvement, the counts are getting slightly better rather than slightly worse, notwithstanding the problems with the mechanism for returning data to local authorities where there is a check box for a bracketed number of nought to 10 and so on.

I want to reflect on the point about the reason why people sleep rough. It comes down to the purpose of the new clause. The hon. Member for West Ham is right to say that it is never straightforward. My experience of meeting rough sleepers is that it is incredibly complex. If it was easy, both sides of the House at different times in past Governments would have cracked the problem and there would be nobody sleeping rough. I met somebody when I went out on Christmas Eve who had slept rough for 20 years—20 years on the streets—but when one talks to this chap, Ivan, he will say that he was offered housing time and time again.

There are problems of relationship breakdowns, of financial crisis, of mental health and many other areas. It is not as simple as saying, “All we need to do is provide more housing.” However, it is also the case that the number of available hostel places tends to seize up, simply for the reason that people move into hostel places and then find it difficult to get to the next step of housing. Overall housing provision, which is the reason why I think that the new clause is so relevant to the Bill, is still a key. When someone is off the street, the next step on the housing ladder is a hostel; the next step after that is some kind of move-on housing and beyond that, social housing, and beyond that, rented accommodation and so on. The problem is that if we fail to build sufficient social housing, as has been the case, with less social housing being built every year over the last 10 years than in any of the previous 18 years, it is difficult to then move people on from hostel housing into the next move-on level and into social housing. One of the problems is still the equivalent of bed-blocking—hostel-blocking—which prevents people from moving out of accommodation.

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

I remind the Committee that with this we are discussing the following:

Amendment No. 35, in clause 2, page 2, line 2, after ‘subsection (1)—’, insert—

‘“housing need” includes the condition of those who are homeless and those who are housed in insecure, unsatisfactory or overcrowded accommodation.’.

New clause 7—Rough Sleepers Steering Group

‘(1) The Secretary of State shall, within six months of the coming into force of this Act, establish a body (“the Steering Group”) to review the services provided to rough sleepers in England and draw up an action plan to provide adequate hostel and permanent accommodation.

(2) The membership of the Steering Group shall include an equal number of members from central government, local government, registered providers of social housing and other relevant charitable organisations, with an independent chair.

(3) The Steering Group shall make recommendations within six months of its establishment in respect of the matters referred to in subsection (1).’.

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

As I was saying, our greatest concern with homelessness is that the figures for rough sleepers are inaccurate, and it is rough sleeping that concerns us most here. Two main points remain to be covered.

The rough sleepers unit was disbanded on the basis that the two-thirds reduction target had been met; the unit, which can be credited with a great deal of that reduction, was effectively wound up by bringing it into a wider homelessness body under the Department for Communities and Local Government. To have the new body deal simply with the wider issues of homelessness—Labour Back Benchers have pointed out that there is a great difference between homelessness and rough sleeping—rather than having a unit that deals only with rough sleeping may be a mistake.

The new clause is an attempt to bring a rough sleepers steering group into being. Its purpose is to re-emphasise the importance of tackling rough sleeping and its consequences. We propose setting up a separately recognised body within six months, and having it report within a further six months. We can draw upon the experience of the rough sleepers unit, and the work that it did in contributing to the reduction in rough sleeping. It worked, because it concentrated minds on the issue, which is the point of the new clause.

I had anticipated an intervention along the lines of the one made this morning by the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, that the new clause would simply add to the list of objectives under clause 2. We do not want to repeat that earlier debate—it went as far as it could—but the objectives of the agency need to be set out somewhere. The problems of homelessness and rough sleeping are sufficiently important that I am surprised that a detailed reference has not been made to plans to improve the lot of rough sleepers or to re-emphasise the issue anywhere else in the Bill.

I am interested to hear from the Minister whether I have missed something in the 280 clauses that could help, or whether he is amenable to seeing mention of the issue in the Bill or to providing some reassurance on the question of rough sleeping. In particular, will he comment on the problem with the counting of rough sleepers that was referred to earlier, when we heard that the Department counts an estimate of nought to 10 rough sleepers as zero? I would be interested to hear whether anything can be done about that.

I have provided an outline of our reasons for tabling new clause 7. I hope that the Minister will take some of those points on board.

Roberta Blackman-Woods (Labour, City of Durham)

May I take this opportunity, Mr, Gale, of welcoming you to the Chair this afternoon and say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship?

I want to speak against new clause 7, but not because I am not interested in the issue of rough sleepers. It is important to put on record that the Government have put a substantial amount of effort into decreasing the number of rough sleepers. Indeed, Opposition Members recognise that numbers have fallen by 73 per cent. since 1998. The Government have signalled their intention to continue the reduction, with a range of measures to tackle new homelessness. A key aim of the Bill is to enable more accommodation to be made available to help tackle the problem of rough sleepers. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham that the problem of rough sleeping goes much wider than the availability of accommodation and involves issues of individuals and their wider circumstances.

I want to correct the impression given by the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield that the Government have not invested in social housing, which is not accurate. By 2010, the Government will have invested about £40 billion in social housing and bringing homes up to the decent homes standard, and about 3.6 million homes have already been brought up to that standard. That is important, because the Government have rightly accepted that the emphasis and priority with social housing should be about not only improving numbers, but improving quality and trying to tackle the decades of under-investment in social housing under previous Conservative Governments. I want to put on the record my support for that and for Labour’s record on tackling homelessness and investing in social housing. Of course, we want to invest a lot more in social housing—hence, the Bill—but the record is reasonable, which should be acknowledged.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

Good afternoon, Mr. Gale. May I wish you a happy, peaceful and prosperous new year, as I did Mr. Benton, this morning? It is good to have you in the Chair.

I welcome the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire to the Committee. He was consigned to the touchline for most of the morning, which I thought a bit cheeky—it does not get any better, Mr. Gale—but that was to do with the procedures of the House. The hon. Gentleman did his best in the Hartlepool by-election to stop me from coming here, but since I have been here, he has been kindness personified. He is a true friend, and I look forward to battling with him over the Bill.

I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Chesterfield (Paul Holmes), who was with us on Second Reading and during the oral evidence sessions. His commitment to social housing, particularly council housing, is in no doubt, and I thank him for his work in Committee.

Lembit Öpik (Liberal Democrat, Montgomeryshire)

May I thank the Minister and the Committee for their generosity? I felt the Minister’s sympathy as I sat out there, homeless from the Committee. I did my best to prevent the Minister from being elected in his constituency, but that was because I knew that he would be too good as a Minister. Even so, he has exceeded my expectations.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I shall move on swiftly, Mr. Gale—we have all just had lunch and might start to feel a little sick; mutual appreciation societies can go too far.

We have had an interesting debate, and I have been grateful for our discussions on the amendments, which are helping us to tease out ideas about the agency and what it should do. I must point out that all the objects of the agency, including improving the supply and quality of housing, must be carried out with a view to meeting the needs of people in England, including their housing needs.

I was interested in the comments of the hon. Member for St. Ives on the need for a more substantial awareness and analysis of the national housing need—I think that those were his words. It is also important that local authorities have a central role in identifying specific housing needs in their areas and that there is wider regional consideration. That is why regional planning bodies and local authorities carry out assessments of housing needs in their areas, using advice from the national housing and planning advice unit. My hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton made that point very well in an intervention.

The Homes and Communities Agency will be expected to work in partnership with those regional and local bodies to consider social housing needs in different places. I imagine that that work will feed into regional and local plans and the overall work of the agency. The agency will also be expected to support local authorities and build their capacity on housing and regeneration issues. As part of that, it is likely to work with local authorities to develop housing needs assessments for various places. We are keen to avoid unnecessary duplication of such work.

I concede that better national assessment of housing need is necessary, but I emphasise the central role of local authorities in assessing that need in their areas in conjunction with a regional perspective. I do not consider the Homes and Communities Agency the right body to make an assessment—it would be done better by an independent researcher or body or by central Government. One theme that I want to advance in Committee is that the agency was set up to allow the Department for Communities and Local Government to take a strategic and policy-making role with others providing the delivery function, and this matter is a good example of that. We are considering models of how better to assess housing need, and I pledge that we shall make an announcement in due course.

On new clause 7, I am not convinced that we need a statutory body, which would add a layer of bureaucracy, to consider rough sleeper services. Both Government and Opposition Members have rightly said that in the past 10 years, we have achieved an enormous amount in partnership with the voluntary sector and local authorities to tackle and reduce homelessness, particularly in its worst form—rough sleeping. Because of that, it is difficult to see what added value would arise from the establishment of a steering group.

One reason why I like serving on Public Bill Committees is that themes seem to emerge. We have discussed year zero, whether or not it is 1997, since which everything was good and before which everything was bad. The hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield made an important point: politicians and Members of Parliament are criticised an awful lot, and I do not accept that hon. Members of any party come into public service in order to increase homelessness—I agree with him on every word of that. However, public service, particularly the governing of the country, is about priorities and where to allocate resources to match those priorities and to achieve objectives. I must say that the record of the Conservative Government before 1997 on homelessness and rough sleeping did not match our priorities, and since 1997 this Government have a record that is second to none.

George Young (Conservative, North West Hampshire)

I hope that the Minister recognises that in 1990, the rough sleepers initiative was launched, devoting substantial resources to reducing rough sleepers in London, with the back-up of hostels and the co-operation of voluntary organisations. Against that background, I hope that he will tone down his somewhat harsh criticism of the regime before 1997.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that, although that he was a first-class Housing Minister in a Conservative Government, he was swimming against the tide of his Administration. The priorities were not there in the Thatcher and Major Administrations.

Lyn Brown (Labour, West Ham)

Does the Minister agree that one issue in dealing with rough sleepers in that period was that the problems of those on the streets were not analysed? It was therefore not possible effectively to place resources that would get people off the streets and keep them off the streets, giving them an opportunity for life to come.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I agree absolutely, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s work on the matter. She is a passionate champion, and she is rightly pushing to ensure that we do even more, building upon our unprecedented success in tackling homelessness and rough sleeping.

Nick Raynsford (Labour, Greenwich and Woolwich)

Does the Minister recall that, in the dying days of the Conservative Government in 1996, they legislated, against the strong view of the entire voluntary sector and our party, to reduce the statutory obligation on local authorities to assist homeless people? That was remedied by Labour when it returned to power, with legislation that was introduced in 2001 and that eventually reached the statute book in 2002. The only advances in the statutory definition of the rights of homeless people have come under Labour Governments—in 1997, with the strong support of the Liberals, and in 2002. That is when there has been definition in law of rights for the homeless.

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

Order. I was under the impression that the Government want to make progress this afternoon. I cannot find anything in what the right hon. Gentleman has just said that is remotely connected with any of the clauses or amendments under discussion. Perhaps we can return to the Bill.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I want to put on record that I completely agree with what my right hon. Friend has said. The Government have effectively tackled the most visible form of homelessness—that of people sleeping on the streets. We want to do more, and we will. In 1998, the then Prime Minister set a target that by 2002 the number of rough sleepers should be reduced by at least two thirds. That target, as the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield has conceded, was met ahead of time and is being sustained. I am wary of your rulings, Mr. Gale, but it is important to focus on the real success of the past decade. In 1998, there were 1,850 rough sleepers on the streets of England on any single night. In 2007, as the hon. Gentleman said in his contribution, there are now fewer than 500; he made an important point about rough sleeping counts, which he has done outside the Committee. That has been echoed in the Committee by my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton; no one is suggesting that we are collecting the number of every single person who sleeps rough on every single night of the year. That is not the intention, and it would be difficult to achieve.

Street counts provide a useful snapshot of people sleeping rough on a single night. The methodology was developed by the Government some nine years ago, in partnership with the voluntary sector. I want to reiterate that those counted on a single night do not represent all those who may have experienced sleeping rough over the course of a year. As my hon. Friend the Member for Edmonton has rightly stated, street counts are still the most robust method for measuring the changing situation on the streets over a sustained period. That conclusion is backed up by the National Audit Office:

“The count is designed to capture the number of people sleeping rough on a given night rather than over the course of a year. Counts might not capture all of those sleeping rough, but because the methodology has been applied consistently area-to-area and year-on-year, it is the most accurate measure of the relative scale of the problem and change over time.”

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

With respect, the Minister is somewhat skirting around the issue. We are agreed that the count is inaccurate, because not everyone is found and the actual number of rough sleepers is therefore not provided. We also agree that the count gives an indication of the trend. However, the point of the steering group’s work would be to find and define a new system for enabling the count to include those numbers—not counting them as zero, but as the actual number that came in from the local authority. Will the Minister address that point?

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

The hon. Gentleman has raised an interesting point. I do not want to carry out spin with rough sleeping figures. I want to have robust evidence, so that we can drive down the figures further. That is a major priority of the Government, and it will continue to be so.

Lyn Brown (Labour, West Ham)

Does the Minister agree that because services for the homeless and street-sleeping people have increased over the past 10 years, we now have people on the ground who know the area that they are dealing with and where those people sleep? The count has become more robust and more accurate as we have progressed through the decade, because we have more knowledge of people, locally, on the ground, who know their clients at the shelters and the hostels.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

My hon. Friend has raised an interesting point, which is useful in moving the debate forward. That partnership between service users—I hate that phrase, but it is appropriate here—local authorities and voluntary sector groups is vital to driving the figure down further.

I am going to come directly to the important point about nought to 10 estimates being treated as zero, hopefully reflecting my indication and that of the Minister for Housing that we want to be as honest, up front and robust as possible in our methodology. I do not want to be flippant, but the reason for the current situation is that it is not necessary for all local authorities to carry out a full rough sleeping count. In many areas, rough sleeping might not be an issue. Our guidance states:

“If the local authority feels that it has developed a rough sleeping problem — and in particular it estimates that there may be more than 10 rough sleepers in the area, a full count should be carried out to clarify the situation.”

The decision to go for the lower end of banded estimates was based on clear precedence, where local authority estimates consistently overestimated the number actually found in counts. The current approach was suggested some nine or 10 years ago in consultation with the local government sector, and we carried out its wishes.

I am mindful of your ruling, Mr. Gale, but I want to reiterate an important point: we have applied the same methodology in producing the national estimate. We accept that the total does not represent everyone sleeping rough, but it is an accurate reflection of changes in the scale of rough sleeping nationally. I am committed publicly to reconsidering the matter. As part of our work with the voluntary sector and key local authorities, we are looking at the counting methodology and a future rough sleeping strategy in order to have as robust a methodology as possible.

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

Will the Minister tell us when the review will take place

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

Discussions about the review are taking place between departmental officials. However, I should be able to return on Report and provide a firmer indication, if the hon. Gentleman wishes.

I shall return to our successes on rough sleeping, which resulted from the effective partnership between central Government, local authorities and the voluntary sector, which is recognised throughout the world. Jenny Edwards, the chief executive of Homeless Link, which is the national umbrella organisation for the voluntary sector, said:

“Our country has inspired the rest of the world in the way it has tackled rough sleeping, with the Government, the voluntary sector and local authorities working together. Thousands of people, many who had been written off by society, have come off the streets and rebuilt their lives. The key has been to make sure their aspirations are at the heart of this journey. The progress so far inspires and encourages us to redouble our efforts over the next few years, to get rough sleeping as close to zero as possible in all areas of the country.”

We are not complacent and realise that we need to look ahead.

The time is right to consider a rough sleeping strategy for the next three years. We have informally consulted the voluntary sector on the key elements of that strategy, and we will work closely with our partners to make further inroads into rough sleeping. Our strategy needs to bring together all the elements involved in getting people off the streets, such as tackling their support needs, making hostels places of change that help rough sleepers get back on track and moving people into settled accommodation and employment.

We have been talking about priorities in government. I have made the point that rough sleeping and homelessness have been major priorities for the Labour Government since 1997, backed up by substantial levels of resources and funding allocations. It has always been important to ensure that funding is available to tackle rough sleeping. To put the discussion into context, we recently announced about £150 million of homelessness grants for local authorities over the next three years to help prevent homelessness and to tackle rough sleeping. That is the biggest ever cash injection for homelessness services. In addition, we are providing more than £51 million of homelessness grants to the voluntary sector over the next three years. Our work with rough sleepers will extend much wider than just helping them off the streets.

As Minister with responsibility for homelessness, I am incredibly proud of our considerable investment in improving hostels. Some £90 million has been spent over the past three years on 175 projects in 62 areas. We want good hostels with rough sleepers being linked into training, employment and reskilling, so that they can move on to live independently, and we are reiterating that investment with further spending. In the latest comprehensive spending review, we have secured £70 million of new funding for hostels over the next three years, bringing the total investment in getting rough sleepers off the streets up to £160 million. I say to the hon. Gentleman—match that!

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

It is clear, according to the Minister’s figures, that £90 million has been invested over the past three years. However, over the next three years, that figure will reduce to £70 million. Will the Minister therefore confirm that there will be a cut in expenditure on hostels over the next three years?

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

No. My sense, from speaking to the voluntary sector organisations that are involved in this, is that they are extremely pleased with the settlement. They thought that this whole area would be cut substantially; it has not been. The settlement allows us to build on very real successes. A lot of the work that went on in the previous three years was to put down markers and set up the necessary infrastructure. We can now go on and build almost 100 per cent. on delivery, and I think that that is very important.

We are really moving homelessness policy away from just helping somebody to get a bed for the night. We are helping ambition, raising aspirations and providing training opportunities to make sure that people stay permanently aware. Therefore, all the elements are in place to ensure we can continue to tackle rough sleeping and further reduce the numbers of those who are unfortunate enough to be on the streets. Our rough sleeping strategy, which will be drawn up with our partners, represents the way forward. It will be backed by substantial funding for local authorities and the voluntary sector.

The best way to tackle homelessness is to make sure that we have the homes necessary to eliminate it. That was why I was disappointed that the Conservative party did not support the Bill on Second Reading and thus did not support our aim of ensuring that we have the homes needed to make homelessness a thing of the past. I hope that the hon. Member for St. Ives will withdraw the amendment.

Andrew George (Liberal Democrat, St Ives)

I am very grateful to the Minister and others who have contributed to the debate on the two amendments tabled by me and my no longer banished hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire. To be honest, they were intended to be probing amendments to encourage the Minister to acknowledge that there were difficulties. The housing market is not simplistic or two dimensional. The figures need to be balanced for social housing, intermediate housing and market housing. The task of establishing how sub-markets work in different areas is much more challenging than perhaps others had previously acknowledged.

I was disappointed, especially in the light of my hon. Friend’s effusive remarks about the Minister, by the way in which the Minister dismissed the arguments that I advanced in our debate this morning. The fact is that local authorities have a statutory responsibility, but only for housing involving certain types of need. Not all types are picked up by the local housing register, which is not sufficiently sensitive to take account of a wide range of needs. For example, single men cannot necessarily express their need or get on the register quite as easily as other groups.

I mentioned rural areas. The logic is compelling. There is no point waiting for a bus on a Sunday if there is no bus. Likewise, there is no point expressing a need for social housing in a village where there is no housing available. Leaving this to local authorities and their statutory responsibilities means that those kinds of nuances are simply not picked up. Similarly, the way in which the sub-market operates is not fully recognised—not just in the Kate Barker review, but also in the Government’s response to that, and in the regional assemblies and sub-regional plans. They all seem to fail to reflect the relationship between the open market and the need for an intermediate market. There is a need for a great deal more work than has been provided up until now.

Let me give an example. There is a requirement to understand properly the extent of the need for intermediate market housing, such as low-cost and shared ownership housing. Where the assessment is poor and the figures perhaps provide for a large number of market houses, it makes it much more difficult to bring forward the large numbers of intermediate market houses that are needed in an area. That is because landowners will always hope that their land will be apportioned for market housing and will therefore not make it available for intermediate markets. By getting the assessment right, we get the figures right, and by getting the figures right, we will be more likely to be able to deliver.

Andrew Love (Labour, Edmonton)

Local authorities have a strategic role on housing in their local area. They have not only responsibilities, but powers to allow them to intervene in the housing market. While I accept that there are difficulties in relation to funding, if there are other shortcomings, surely they relate mainly to the reluctance of local authorities to use those powers—to use the strategic overview that they should have in a local area—to do what the hon. Gentleman is asking.

Andrew George (Liberal Democrat, St Ives)

That intervention is extremely helpful because it emphasises that if local authorities are not using the full range of powers that they have, and doing only the minimum that they can get away with in terms of the statutory duties, it means that the new agency will not be as well informed as it perhaps should be by commissioning surveys, or perhaps academic analyses, so that it can be satisfied that the information that it gets from the ground properly reflects what is going on and helps it in its forward planning. It is on that basis that I am troubled by the Minister’s response. I will therefore press the amendment to a Division.

Roberta Blackman-Woods (Labour, City of Durham)

I beg to move amendment No. 75, in clause 2, page 1, line 14, leave out ‘or’ and insert ‘, sustainable development or other’.

The amendment, which stands in my name and that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, is essentially a prompt to the Government that the concept of sustainability, and in particular sustainable development, should be explicitly mentioned in the objectives of the HCA in clause 2(1).

The Government have an excellent record of putting sustainability at the heart of the development and regeneration agenda. It is reflected in the revision of planning policy guidance note 1 to planning policy statement 1 to concentrate specifically on sustainable development in the planning system. It is also reflected in PPS3, where there is a specific mention in the Government’s strategic housing policy objectives of the desire to create sustainable, inclusive and mixed communities in all areas—urban and rural. As that is a strategic objective of the Government, it would be useful if it were emphasised in the objectives of the HCA. Of course, the Government supported the Sustainable Communities Bill last year, meaning that we now have the Sustainable Communities Act 2007, which concentrates in particular on supporting local authorities to provide sustainable development.

With that wealth of legislation and policy, the Government have clearly flagged their direction with respect to encouraging sustainability, not only in matters such as renewable energy or greater energy efficiency for communities, but in ensuring that communities have access to transport, schools, community facilities and the necessary support infrastructure. It would be helpful if that aspect were flagged up in the Bill.

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I want briefly to support the amendment. The amendment brings us back to something that I mentioned earlier: the concern at the back of some minds that what is happening is all a numbers game that is about being determined to push through a certain number of houses, without regard to the other things that will make for serious, sensible, sustainable communities in the future, such as design, quality and sustainability. Some guidance from the Minister about how seriously he takes the issues that the hon. Lady has raised would be helpful.

Lembit Öpik (Liberal Democrat, Montgomeryshire)

I support the amendment. It looks to me as if sustainability is missing entirely from clause 2 in word and in spirit. As far as I can see, there is no element of the amendment that is compromising to the Government. As the hon. Lady has pointed out, the Government have been clear about their support for a sustainability agenda throughout their work and specifically in housing. I hope that this will be one of those occasions when the Minister, after consideration, will be able to accept an amendment that evidently has cross-party support.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

That was a short but sweet debate on an important and serious amendment, which I thank my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham and my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich for tabling. It is clear from all that has happened in the past few months that the Government take climate change and wider sustainable development extremely seriously. That is the reason for the proposals that we have published in the Climate Change Bill, the first of its kind in the world, to provide a clear, credible, long-term domestic framework for the achievement of the UK’s long-term goals of reducing carbon dioxide emissions. With responsibilities for housing, planning and regeneration, the Department has a key role to play in tackling climate change, not least when we think that nearly half of all carbon emissions in the UK come from buildings and something like 27 per cent. come from homes.

We have already made progress, as my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham has said and as has been recognised by the Sustainable Development Commission and other green NGOs. Green stakeholders have told us that the Department is critical to successful Government action on climate change—perhaps more than any other Department. However, as the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire has mentioned, sustainable development will and should be at the heart of what the agency does, and it is crucial that the Bill makes that clear.

The agency’s functions in relation to sustainable development are set out in clause 34, which provides that it

“may contribute to the achievement of sustainable development.”

However, I agree with the cross-party consensus that we need to go further. I should like to consider in more detail the suggestion that the agency has a stronger duty to sustainable development. I shall consider whether incorporation in the agency’s fundamental objects would be appropriate, and I will look at the duties placed on comparable bodies, such as regional development agencies, the Greater London Assembly and local authorities, which are required to provide sustainable community strategies.

I am sure the whole Committee recognises that it is important that we get the clause right. I am clear that we must not constrain the agency’s ability to deliver new homes, or leave it open to persistent legal challenges on matters such as its work on eco-towns and other initiatives that will help to achieve the 3 million homes target, which may require, frankly, the development of greenfield sites. If we were to place on the agency an unqualified duty, it would be almost impossible for the agency to achieve its targets. However, I hear and agree with what the Committee has said, and I shall consider the issue in more detail and return to it at a later stage.

Lembit Öpik (Liberal Democrat, Montgomeryshire)

I shall be interested to hear what the hon. Member for City of Durham says in response to the Minister’s comments. I am encouraged by what the Minister has said, and I hope that it means that the Government will adopt the amendment on Report.

May I underline something that the Minister himself said about clause 34? In the clause, “may” is used, not “must”. We are in changing times, and if the Government are serious about the environmental agenda, it seems appropriate to enshrine that element in the objects of the agency that we are setting up. There would be no cost to the Government, but the provision would be directionally important.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s contribution. I have made my and the Government’s position clear, subject to the constraints that I have mentioned. To that end, I hope that my hon. Friend will withdraw her amendment, which we may consider later in the Bill’s proceedings.

Roberta Blackman-Woods (Labour, City of Durham)

The Minister has given me supportive comments and assurances that he will consider the issue seriously. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 12, in clause 86, page 37, line 38, after ‘well-managed’, insert ‘, inclusive’.

George Young (Conservative, North West Hampshire)

I hope that we are now on a winning streak, because when I moved an amendment this morning, the Government said that it was very worthy but that it added to a list, which was a powerful argument for rejecting it. The previous amendment added to a list, but after an obviously good lunch, the Minister decided that although it added to a list, it was none the less worth considering. Against that background, he will find it hard to resist amendment No. 14.

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

Does my right hon. Friend feel that the absence of the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, who would have nipped the Minister’s ankles, led the Minister to make that concession?

George Young (Conservative, North West Hampshire)

I was surprised that the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich tabled an amendment that added to a list, given what he said about my amendment this morning.

Returning to my amendment, if there is one theme running through the Government’s housing policy, it is social inclusion, which is one reason why they have introduced the Bill. Social inclusivity is a fundamental element of the Government’s homes and communities agenda. The amendment would not add to a list; it would simply add an adjective to an existing list. I hope the Minister agrees that we want to build inclusive communities, and I see no reason why he cannot smile on the amendment. To some extent, this debate overlaps with our first debate and with the previous debate about focusing not only on building but on building inclusive communities.

By an inclusive community, I mean something broader than accessible housing. I mean homes and infrastructure that are planned and delivered to empower disabled people and other groups to get out and about, which are the sort of communities that the hon. Member for City of Durham referred to in the debate on the previous amendment, when she said that such communities should be sustainable. It means accessible and integrated transport, ensuring that facilities are located in places that everyone can reach easily and cheaply and that people in sheltered and supported accommodation can play a full role in a properly mixed community.

The Disability Rights Commission has provided some invaluable guidance for planners and housing professionals on what it thinks should be factored into the planning of such communities. I hope that the Minister agrees that the amendment would take forward the Government’s agenda and put in the Bill one of the main objectives of their housing and community policy. On that basis, I hope that he will give me the same benign treatment that he recently bestowed on his Back-Bench colleague.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I am afraid that I must disappoint the right hon. Gentleman—I have sobered up quickly from my good lunch. A theme that emerged this morning, along with year zero, was the list principle. The amendment is unnecessary, as it takes us back to that principle.

Amendment No. 14 refers to the HCA, which, as I said this morning, will already have the objective of improving the supply and quality of housing in England, with a view to meeting the needs of people living there. I suggest that that includes ensuring that housing of all tenures and types appropriate to the needs of the community is provided. By meeting the needs of the community, the agency will contribute to its inclusiveness. Similarly to what we discussed this morning, I would be reluctant for inclusiveness to be elevated above the community’s other needs. It should also be sustainable, to take into account what we discussed on amendment No. 75, and it should be mixed. Those needs and others are reflected in the requirement for the agency to meet the needs of the community.

Amendment No. 12 relates to clause 86(2), which sets out one of the regulator’s 10 fundamental objectives. We shall discuss part 2 of the Bill in subsequent sittings, but it is worth my briefly summarising objective 1, which is set out in clause 86. It requires the regulator

“to encourage and support a supply of well-managed social housing, of appropriate quality, sufficient to meet reasonable demands.”

The amendment would add the word “inclusive” after “well-managed”. The clause sets out the fundamental objectives of the regulator, which must perform its functions with a view to achieving them as far as possible. It will be for the regulator to balance its objectives in carrying out each of its functions, as it deems appropriate. The objectives are intended to provide a constraint on how it exercises its functions under part 2 of the Bill, for example by setting out the purposes for which it can act and matters that it must weigh up in deciding how to act.

The purpose of objective 1 is to ensure that the regulator is concerned with ensuring that adequate social housing is available to meet needs, and with the quality of the stock and housing management. It is expected to take a view about what is needed across the social housing sector and to perform its regulatory functions accordingly. Adding the word “inclusive” would not have any useful effect. Objective 1 already states that the regulator must support a supply of social housing sufficient to meet reasonable demand, which will include demand from older or disabled people, whom we discussed earlier. Social homes will also need to be of a quality appropriate to those using them.

In addition, both the agency and the regulator will operate under a duty of equality, as do all public bodies. We will table consequential amendments in due course to amend schedule 1A to the Race Relations Act 1976, to include the regulator and the HCA. The Disability Discrimination Act 1995 and the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, as amended by the Equality Act 2006, now contain a general duty that applies to all public authorities.

It was a joy to watch two Privy Councillors this morning jousting and duelling. It reminded me of the rumble in the jungle or the thriller in Manila. However, the amendment takes us back to the list principle, so I hope that the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire will withdraw it.

George Young (Conservative, North West Hampshire)

I am a little disappointed by the Minister’s reply, because I thought that the list argument had died in the previous debate, but it has been exhumed and deployed against the amendment. I honestly cannot see what damage it would do to the Bill to state that the HCA’s objective should be to support the development of inclusive communities in England, rather than simply the development of communities. His argument is that if we were to include the word “inclusive”, we should refer also to “mixed” and “sustainable”, but he conceded the argument on “sustainable” a few moments ago, so he is in danger of contradicting himself.

I recognise, however, that the Government are not minded to make such a concession, although I thought that I was simply taking their agenda forward a stage. However, if they do not share my view, there is no point in my trying to help them any further. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

Order. Before we proceed, I want to say that I have always taken the view that hon. Members have a right to debate the detail of any clause, and that we can therefore have a stand part debate at the beginning or the end of consideration of a clause. On this occasion, however, having looked at the breadth and depth of the amendments tabled, I shall probably determine that a clause stand part debate is unnecessary. I am telling hon. Members that now in case they wish to raise any burning issues between now and then.

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

I beg to move amendment No. 1, in clause 2, page 1, line 15, at end insert—

‘(d) to facilitate the provision and supply of home ownership including, in particular, low cost home ownership through community land trusts.’.

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 32, in clause 2, page 1, line 15, at end insert—

‘(d) to facilitate the provision and supply of housing for low cost home ownership and low cost rental through community land trusts.’.

New clause 1—Definition of “Community land trust”

‘“Community land trust” means a non-profit organisation which is an industrial and provident society, a company limited by guarantee or other incorporated body whose governing instrument contains provisions to the following effect—

(a) the primary purpose of the organisation is to hold land and other assets in order to promote the social, economic and environmental sustainability of a specified local geographic community by providing or facilitating the provision of affordable or other sub-market housing or other community-based facilities and services,

(b) the organisation will not dispose of its land and other assets save in the furtherance of its objectives as set out in paragraph (a),

(c) the membership of the organisation is open to organisations which are located in or persons whose principal place of residence, work or business is located in the specified community the organisation is established to serve (although the organisation may have different classes of membership),

(d) over 50 per cent. of the governing body is elected by the members of the organisation,

(e) the organisation is accountable to the local community through annual reporting or otherwise, and is responsive to the local community’s needs and to representations made on its behalf, and

(f) it is an organisation established to help enable the community and those who live or work there to benefit from the land or other assets it holds.’.

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

I shall try to make this contribution relatively brief, because I believe that, on this matter, the Committee is in agreement. The idea of CLTs has been around for a while, and they have started to happen. I have heard this Minister and the Minister for Housing speak in favour of them, and we, too, back them. CLTs are useful vehicles for encouraging low-cost ownership and rental, and they can play an important role in enabling communities to retain the benefits of the value of land, which makes it much easier for the Government to achieve their stated objective of reviving low-cost housing. As I understand it, it is beyond debate that CLTs are a good idea.

So why are CLTs not moving as fast as we would like? Some pilots have been set up, and more are coming in down the line. However, from talking to those involved with CLTs, there appears to be some hesitation and lack of confidence, and a concern that policy changes and other factors might stop CLTs in their tracks. It seems that the HCA and this Bill present an excellent opportunity to make a positive difference to the future of CLTs. The most important thing, as with all Government policy, is to provide a sense of certainty that the provisions are here to stay and that those who invest in them, either financially or with their own confidence and backing, will see CLTs flourish in 10 or 20 years’ time, so the investment needs to be long term. The purpose of the new clause, and the easiest way in which to achieve that objective, is to provide a legal definition of what a CLT would actually do—no such definition exists at the moment. I very much hope that that will attract the Minister’s eye and support.

Lembit Öpik (Liberal Democrat, Montgomeryshire)

The hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield is right that there is a high degree of cross-party support for what the amendments and the strategy of CLTs seek to achieve. The extent to which land prices influence the effectiveness of CLTs in any given environment is, of course, beyond our control, and there is probably no benefit in my going through the mechanism now. However, I am interested to know whether the Minister and the Government are sympathetic to the concept of CLTs. If they are, I hope that he will be sympathetic to the amendments.

Once again, this is not a party political question, but a question of how we best manage land in the public interest. Given that the CLT agenda is very similar to what I believe to be the agency’s agenda, I hope that we can generate a conceptual partnership in which the CLTs regard the new agency as an ally. That will make it easier for local communities to manage land in a way that is in their best interests, rather than just in those of developers. Developers will not lose out, but their activities will be made indirectly accountable to the communities that, ultimately, their constructions will serve. I hope that the Minister and others will take a benign view of the hon. Gentleman’s sensible proposition.

Andrew Love (Labour, Edmonton)

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Gale. From experience of past Bills, I know that you will keep us on track during our sittings.

May I add to the cross-party consensus on the issue? Without adding much, I agree with almost all of what has been said so far and, without simply repeating it, I want to emphasise the importance of the provision being included in the Bill and the objectives. A primary function of the HCA is to provide affordable accommodation, and I think that it is recognised across the board that CLTs have a major part to play in providing that affordable accommodation.

As has been said, there are a number of pilots up and down the country. A lot of them are striving hard to get the idea off the ground and to show that it can work in practical terms, but they are meeting major institutional barriers of a number of sorts. Making the amendment to the Bill and including a definition of a CLT is important, and it is particularly important to state that the land is secured for the community, which is a principle within the definition.

At this point I should explain the difference between my amendment No. 32 and amendment No. 1. Simply, my amendment includes a commitment not only to low-cost home ownership, which is important, but to low-cost rented accommodation. I am simply trying to widen the narrow definition in amendment No. 1. That has got nothing to do with any worries about low-cost home ownership, which is incredibly important, but affordable rented accommodation is also important. The Minister will be only too well aware of the acute shortage of affordable rented accommodation not only in urban areas, such as my London constituency, but in many rural areas, where there is a problem for young families, who cannot afford to buy, even with the subsidised prices that may be available through community land trusts, but who can afford to rent, if more property were available. My amendment would enable that and two other things as well.

We were talking about sustainable communities. We have talked in the past about balanced communities. Providing low-cost home ownership only will not give us balanced, sustainable communities, and we need to stretch across. What is important, perhaps more so in rural rather than urban areas, is that we try to balance the community by providing rented as well as home-ownership accommodation. Added to that, the measure would promote mixed tenure, hopefully in a positive way. Take an example from my constituency, where I was involved in a development of what was meant to be a mixed tenure scheme—part low-cost home ownership and part affordable rented accommodation. All the plans were laid out, and the development looked marvellous, and when the houses were built, it looked even better. Lo and behold, somewhere along the line, before getting around to selling the homes, a wall was erected between the ownership homes and the rented homes. We want to try and protect ourselves against that.

Amendment No. 32, with its commitment to both home-ownership and rented accommodation and to inherently mixed communities and mixed tenure estates, will go a long way to achieving the Government’s ambition. I come back again to the rationale that community land trusts will be a major contributor to the objectives of the Homes and Communities Agency, and therefore should be in the objectives of that agency. I assume that the Minister is sympathetic, but if he is not minded to accept the amendment, I hope that he will give sympathetic consideration to the cross-party concerns that have been expressed, and will try to find a way to ensure that, through this Bill, we galvanise community land trusts to achieve what we all hope and know that they can achieve in terms of delivering the objectives of the agency.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I welcome the debate that we have had on these amendments, and on the issue of community land trusts. As I think my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing made clear in the oral evidence sessions in December, we are committed to community land trusts and think that they have real potential to help provide more affordable housing. In that regard, I hope that I can provide a further element of cross-party consensus. Community land trusts are an exciting model. As has already been said, we have 14 pilots under way—seven in rural areas and seven in urban areas—which are supported by the Housing Corporation. We are using these pilots to look in more detail at how to develop the community land trust models, and will follow the pilots with a great deal of interest.

I would point out that the Housing Corporation and English Partnerships already have the ability to support community land trusts within the existing framework. The Bill gives the HCA the power to support CLTs. I do not want to pre-empt what the agency will do when it is up and running, but I am sure that, where appropriate, the HCA will assist community land trusts as part of fulfilling its objects of improving the supply and quality of housing in England. However—this is a crucial point—we do not want to dictate to the agency the precise mechanism by which it delivers those objects. Singling out a vehicle such as community land trusts for the delivery of housing, regardless of the merits of that particular vehicle, must suggest that this is the preferred way to provide housing. I suggest that that is the wrong approach.

Similarly, I am a big fan of local housing companies, and I think that the agency may encourage them as well. However, I do not want to dictate the promotion of local housing companies in the Bill. To reiterate, I do not think that it is wise or necessary in this case to embed one particular mechanism in legislation, as circumstances differ and times change.

Andrew Love (Labour, Edmonton)

The Minister will be aware from the pilots that there has been some concern that English Partnerships has not been as positive in the process as one would hope. Recognising that, can he give any reassurance that the HCA will not replicate that concern, but would be more sympathetic to the objectives of community land trusts?

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

As I have said, I am personally very interested in the manner in which the 14 pilots are operating. I want to see how they are working and how they can help to provide the new homes that we need. Crucially, as my hon. Friend said, I want to identify any barriers to their development that we can help unblock. I am also very interested in the role that the agency can play in moving forward with regard to community land trusts. I do see CLTs as a big part of what will happen in terms of the delivery of housing in the future. As such, I am hoping to meet with representatives of community land trusts next month to hear how they are operating on the ground, to listen at first hand to their concerns, and to try to unblock the barriers. I hope that that provides reassurance to my hon. Friend and others.

In summary, I do not want to box the agency into any particular model in the Bill. I hate this phrase, Mr. Gale, but we need to “future-proof” the agency as much as possible. Innovative new models will come forward and specifying individual models on the face of the Bill may compromise the agency’s ability to deliver. I hope that I have reassured the Committee that I am very keen to make sure that community land trusts prosper. I am going to take a personal interest by seeing them next month, but I hope, on that basis, that hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

I hear everything that the Minister says. I am slightly surprised by the response, inasmuch as hon. Members on both sides of the Committee agree with community land trusts. The point that, I think, has not been addressed in the short debate is how community land trusts get off the ground. If they are to do that, they require the reassurance of some kind of framework, some kind of definition. That does not exist in the Bill. One can possibly accept the argument that it should not be written into the Bill in clause 2—as that might overplay CLTs in comparison to local housing companies or some other form of housing, but it is odd that CLTs are not given a little more prominence in the Bill. None the less, I am sympathetic to what the Minister said with regard to his personal interest in community land trusts.

I also heard, during the evidence sessions, the Minister for Housing talk about the 14 or so trials that are being set up. On the basis that the results of those trials are published—unlike the results of the £4 million trials into six home information pack areas, which have never been published by this Government— I would be pleased not to press the new clause. I seek an assurance that the results of the trials will be published and available to the public.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

It somewhat surprises me that it has taken until 6 minutes past 2 in the second session of clause-by-clause consideration for the hon. Gentleman to mention HIPs. I though it would be something like 2 minutes past 9.

I hope that I have made the Government’s intentions and my personal intentions clear. This is something that we are very much interested in. We want to see community land trusts work and we want to make sure that any blockages to development are eliminated. To that effect, I am working on the matter and I will meet the trusts next month to see what we can do. I reiterate the point about defining CLTs in the Bill. I do not want to risk failing to future-proof the agency. I hope that the issue will be debated again on Report, but I hope that I have made the Government’s intentions clear and that the hon. Gentleman will be able to withdraw the amendment.

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I beg to move amendment No. 62, in clause 2, page 1, line 15, at end insert—

‘(ca) to act, in cooperation with relevant local authorities, as the strategy, planning and delivery vehicle for the London Thames Gateway.

(cb) to promote the right to buy and social homebuy in the developments it undertakes or facilitates.’.

Thank you, Mr. Gale. I echo the warm welcome that has been given to you by others. Can I now slightly dent the atmosphere that has been built up, by talking about the Thames Gateway. Mr. Gale, you were not here this morning and therefore might be unaware of an exchange that took place. Much to our surprise, at 9.30 the Minister for Housing tabled a written statement on the very matters that we are talking about, including the decision by the Department for Communities and Local Government to transfer some powers relating to the Thames Gateway to the Homes and Communities Agency, which is the substance of the amendment.

I was slightly surprised that a decision on a matter that had been under consideration for some time in the Department was announced this morning, at a time that did not give us any chance to consider it before the Committee dealt with it this afternoon. I expressed myself in strong terms this morning. I said that the Committee should have an adjournment in order to deal with the matter. I do not blame the Minister. He was good enough to draw the Committee’s attention to the written statement. Part of the reason why I need to explain the amendment at some length, if I may, is the annoyance that the written statement was produced this morning. The statement is on a topic that the Government knew we were going to deal with. They certainly knew from the amendments that were tabled on Monday that the matter would be raised today.

There are two parts to the amendment—one part about the right to buy and social home-buy and the other on the Thames Gateway. I am interested in the Minister’s view on, and determination to promote, social ownership through social home-buy and the right to buy. I should like a word from him about the way in which he intends to tackle the issue through the Homes and Communities Agency. I do not want to linger on that because I want to talk about the Thames Gateway.

The amendment was designed substantially to give effect to a recommendation by the Public Accounts Committee, which published a report on the Thames Gateway on 15 November 2007, entitled “The Thames Gateway: Laying the Foundations”. It was not a complimentary report, but one suggestion that it made was that the Department’s responsibilities for the Thames Gateway be transferred to the new agency, partly because of what the agency was set up to do, and partly because of the Department’s abysmal record on handling the Thames Gateway.

I questioned the Minister for Housing about the issue when she appeared before this Committee on 13 December. I asked her:

“Do you think...you would follow the recent recommendation of the Public Accounts Committee and give the Thames Gateway to the HCA to run?”

She said in response:

“We will confirm our views on precisely what will be covered by the HCA in time for you to have those debates in Committee.”——[Official Report, Housing and Regeneration Public Bill Committee, 13 December 2007; c. 120, Q191.]

The written statement giving the Department’s decision states that

“the Agency will take on housing and regeneration delivery functions from CLG”—

the Department for Communities and Local Government—

“in the Thames Gateway, including driving forward the implementation of the Thames Gateway Delivery Plan published in November.”

For the Minister for Housing to believe that by publishing the statement at half-past 9 this morning, she fulfils her commitment to the Committee on 13 December that we would know her views in time for us to have this debate, is wrong.

I make no criticism of the Minister before us, but the situation is not appropriate. There has not been any time for consultation on precisely what the statement means. We shall discuss it now, and I hope that he will have sufficient information to answer in detail precisely what the Homes and Communities Agency will take over, and precisely what will be left with the Department. There has not been any time for consultation with outside bodies either. Over lunch time, I contacted several local councils in the Thames Gateway area to ask whether they had been consulted about the decision, and the answer that I have so far from them is no. What happened between 13 December 2007 and now? Who was consulted before the decision was made? And why, during that process, was it not possible to give the Committee even 24 hours’ notice that the matter would be dealt with in this way, knowing that it would come up as one of the first amendments, right at the heart of the Bill?

I am disappointed, because I cannot see any political angle to the situation. It is either carelessness or a slight contempt, again, for the process of Parliament for the Department to feel that, with impunity, it can publish something when it wants, regardless of the fact that a Committee will be exploring it, saying, “Oh, it’s all right, it’s being produced in the morning, so they won’t bother and it won’t matter.” It does matter, and the Department could have done better.

That brief rant is over the top for me, as colleagues know, but having put it on the record, I shall now consider the background to the amendment and the reason why we support the transfer to the HCA but want to explore—this is what the amendment does—the role of local authorities and more of the detail.

The original vision of Michael Heseltine to see the area to the east of London as a tremendous opportunity for growth and development has been bedevilled over the past decade by the structure of the organisation that was designed to give effect to that vision. Even Lord Rogers—a Government supporter—was led in his urban task force to contrast the way in which the gateway is being handled with London docklands under Michael Heseltine. The structure of the earlier project was much more tightly handled and delivered far better. In the case of the gateway, there have been too many bodies, too many funding streams, not enough leadership and accountability, and, by and large, a mess, which has prevented it from delivering on its immense potential.

Those complaints and concerns were there for some considerable time before the Public Accounts Committee—

Andrew Love (Labour, Edmonton)

Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that we return to the days of development corporations, bypass local authorities and local communities and simply deliver, or is he suggesting an alternative model halfway between the corporations and what we have now?

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. What we want to do through this amendment is, bearing in mind the announcement this morning, explore precisely what the Government currently have in mind. I do not think a return to a development corporation model is right, because the local authority involvement needs to be substantial. One of the problems has been the expression of their needs and desires and the swiftly changing nature of their economies, which is reflected in their plans and proposals for the gateway. That has not come through the existing structures. I take it that the existing structures have failed, which is why the announcement was made this morning. It would be nice to get an admission on that, and we are exploring what kind of structure there should be in our amendment.

Following a number of concerns raised by many different sources, the Public Accounts Committee had a chance to look at Thames Gateway, and its report was pretty damning. In dealing with this matter on Second Reading, the Minister for Housing tried to bluff by saying from a sedentary position that the report was not all that bad. Bearing in mind what we have been through today, I think we need to examine in more detail the PAC’s conclusions and recommendations.

The first conclusion was this:

“The Department’s management of the programme has been weak and has not demonstrably added value to the programme.”

That was the conclusion that led to its recommendation that the programme should go to the HCA to sit alongside the other housing growth programmes to utilise the agency’s housing and regeneration expertise—that is, to remove it from DCLG control.

This is a further conclusion:

“The Department has not translated the vision for the programme into comprehensive and measurable objectives, nor are there robust systems to measure progress.”

This is a third conclusion:

“The delivery chain for the Thames Gateway is unclear.”

Another conclusion states:

“The Department does not know how much the regeneration of the Thames Gateway will cost the taxpayer.”

A further conclusion states:

“Multiple inward investment agencies operating within the region and the lack of a co-ordinated marking strategy have led to poor visibility of the programme outside the area and amongst potential investors.”

I am not quite sure precisely what the DCLG has done in relation to Thames Gateway that gets a thumbs up and a tick, but there is not very much there, hence the interest and concern about whether this is the right thing for the Department to be carrying on.

Then there is the curious business about the sacking of the chief executive, Judith Armitt. Just before the Committee met on 13 December, news emerged rather slowly that the chief executive of Thames Gateway, appointed barely 12 months before by the Minister for Housing herself, was being removed. We had a little exchange about that in Committee, when I asked the Minister for Housing about progress at the gateway, and she gave the impression that the previous 12 months had produced extremely strong, beneficial changes—indeed, she waxed lyrical about them. I asked her why the chief executive was being sacked if things were so good, but she did not answer. She said:

“You will appreciate that it is not appropriate for me to comment on departmental staffing arrangements, which are a matter for the permanent secretary...Those are internal civil service staffing matters.”

I replied:

“I don’t think you will be able to get away with that for long, but thank you for your answer.”——[Official Report, Housing and Regeneration Public Bill Committee, 13 December 2007; c. 121, Q193.]

The Department cannot get away from that any longer. Why has the chief executive been removed? If progress at the gateway was poor in the previous 12 months, why did the Minister wax lyrical about it on 13 December? If it was good, why was the chief executive sacked? If it was to do with the proposed change to the HCA, why was that not stated at the time—it would have been a perfectly valid reason? If it was because of the change to the HCA, why were we not told about the intention to move departmental responsibilities to the agency before this morning? Frankly, the situation is a mess, and it looks as though there has been a straightforward scapegoating.

That is not the first problem with DCLG delivery. My hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield has made a lot of the HIPs issue, about which the Department has been criticised. There has been criticism about pathfinders and Thames Gateway, and in this case, the criticism seems to have been taken out on a chief executive, whose reputation has thus been sullied and affected, despite having been in post for barely more than a year. She seems to be carrying the can. I also checked with council leaders in the area, asking whether the performance of employees has been particularly poor, but they said, “No, we don’t think that’s the case; we think this is a scapegoating.”

The Minister may not be able to answer this, because it is personal stuff that relates to the Minister for Housing, but it is entirely pertinent to how the gateway is run and to whether the transfer of responsibilities to the HCA will produce anything better than what has been produced up to now. If it is not out of order for him to do so, will the Minister address the unfortunate removal of Judith Armitt ?

Where does the amendment leave us. It relates specifically to the involvement of local authorities, and it covers the point made by the hon. Member for Edmonton about the involvement of local authorities. Precisely what will be the responsibilities of the HCA in relation to the Department? What local authority involvement will there be? When looking at the problems of gateway delivery, we have picked up on a sense among authorities that they do not feel fully engaged and involved in the process. Things can move quickly on the ground in local economies, and sometimes local authorities know best where jobs should be created and where investments should be made. That has not been communicated well enough through the DCLG chain of command, or whatever there is of it. How will that be dealt with through the agency? For the agency to deliver effectively, we would like it to work in conjunction with local authorities.

The big question is the extent to which the agency’s handling of such matters will be different from what has happened up to now. There are some specific problems that I have been looking for the agency to deal with in a different manner. For example, there have been issues about the progress made by the DCLG when the Highways Agency is involved in decisions and where it uses its methodology in relation to congestion and to veto vital road connections. It works more or less as a bystander and not as a key part of the process. One would have thought that a Department handling such matters would make sure there was a degree of co-ordination, but that has not happened in relation to the Highways Agency. Will that problem be sorted by the new structure? Equally, the Environment Agency does not need to lecture the gateway on flood risk; it needs to be actively involved in ensuring there are improved defences and opportunities for creating space for development around water, rather than being on the sidelines making comments. To what extent will the HCA provide a better chance of the Environment Agency being brought into those decisions to make sure that more is done?

To what extent will the agency be able to ensure that there are fewer targets and less mess in terms of that part of the gateway? There have been too many targets. I arrived in Newham this lunch time—I have been out to the gateway and back—to be greeted by a headline in the Newham Recorder, which states, “Regeneration is dealt a blow”. That refers to a consortium pulling out of a £3 billion project, because it wants to concentrate on building the nearby 2012 Olympic village. That is not a disaster for the gateway as a whole, because the work will still be done, but a group that has been involved in a major project to develop Newham’s old docks area has pulled out at a late stage, because another target in the same gateway area has assumed greater importance, leading to a headline that will be disappointing for residents, for the Minister and for everyone else. To what extent will targets be revised and better handled through the new agency’s working?

To what extent will the new agency deal better with greening issues—greening the gateway is tremendously important? I am delighted by the greater involvement of Sir Terry Farrell, in an appointment announced in the autumn, because he is a first-rate man and has a clear grasp of the subject. I am interested in how greening will take place. Who will have responsibility? Will the greening issue be part of the Department’s responsibility, or will it be transferred to the HCA? Clearly, the integration of the greening of the area with the planning and delivery of housing is a key matter.

Lastly, do we have another leadership problem, because the agency will be involved alongside the DCLG, or will the agency have greater responsibility? Where will the Minister for Housing sit in all this? Those are my concerns—I could say more things, but I will not raise them now. My point is clear—the gateway structure has been poor. It seems to me that the Government have acknowledged that, and I think it would help if they were to say, “We got some of this wrong, which is why we are making the transfer. It has not all been marvellous.” If it has all been marvellous, why was the chief executive sacked? If it has not been marvellous, the Government should say so and explain the transfer to the agency. It may be a good development, but we need to know precisely what will be handled by whom, what the relationship with local authorities will be, and whether it will solve some of the practical, everyday problems that I have mentioned.

If we had had a week to consult people in the area about the impact of the Government’s decision, which was announced today and about which the Government must have known for a little while, I would have asked fewer questions and we would know more about it. I am sorry that the Minister has to deal with those balls being bowled at him, but following the release of the PAC report, we did not get a statement—oral or written—from the Department. We have not had a chance to question his colleague, the Minister for Housing, so it falls to him to explain how the matter might be handled and whether our solution of the HCA working with local authorities is the best bet. Alternatively, perhaps he will explain the structure, as it is going to work according to the Minister for Housing’s statement this morning.

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

Order. Some hon. Members may feel that some of the remarks that I have allowed have not been entirely within the order and context of the amendment. My view, having said what I said earlier and not knowing that any of that was going to be said, is that they are in order within the context of the wider clause. I indicated that I was not going to permit a stand part debate, which remains my view more than ever, but I felt that it was only right to allow the hon. Gentleman to make his case. I have listened carefully to the arguments and been briefed on the exchanges that took place this morning. Mr. Benton ruled, quite properly, that it is the responsibility of the Secretary of the State and the Minister to determine when they release documents. However, I ask the Minister to say to the Secretary of State that it might have been helpful had the document been released earlier, if only because it might have made his task a little easier this afternoon and, perhaps, allowed us to make a little more progress.

Andrew Gwynne (Labour, Denton and Reddish)

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Gale. I trust that my earlier declaration of interest during the evidence session still stands on the record, although I would like to correct something: I am a member of Tameside metropolitan borough council, not Thameside, which is something that prickles the leader of the council, particularly because we are in Greater Manchester and not Greater London.

I rise to discuss the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire. In particular, I want to discuss the right to buy and social homebuy, which are important. Like him, I am interested in what the Minister has to say. The Bill envisages many hundreds of thousands of new homes being built over several years totalling in the region of 3 million. Some of those homes will be to buy; some will be for social rent; and some will be shared equity. On Second Reading, lots of arguments were put forward by hon. Members, mainly on the Labour side, concerning the long waiting lists in our constituencies and the problems that have built up over a number of years. In some part, that has been because of the right-to-buy policy.

Right to buy is a popular, long-standing policy, and it was once floated by the Labour party, although it was not taken up. It was eventually taken up by the Thatcher Government and, at the time, it was vociferously opposed by Labour, but time moves on and we are where we are. The policy has led to a dramatic reduction in socially rented accommodation. The problem does not necessarily concern the right-to-buy policy on its own, because we have not replaced those socially rented houses that have been sold off, let alone increased the number to meet demand.

Like the hon. Gentleman, I am interested in the Minister’s response to that element of the amendment, and I hope that he will acknowledge that errors in allowing the social stock to diminish cannot be repeated. Although I accept that the right to buy is a popular policy and that it will continue, we must ensure that we build up socially rented accommodation, prevent the stock from diminishing and keep up with demand, so that we do not end up in the future in the situation that we are in now.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I welcome what the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire has said—he may be surprised by that. He called his speech a rant, but I would say that it was a passionate and reasoned argument. I disagree with a lot of it, if not all of it, but it was well contained and well produced, and I pay tribute to that.

Andrew Love (Labour, Edmonton)

I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. Does he agree that it is somewhat curious that the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire failed to justify the second part of his amendment? I did not hear a cogent argument for the inclusion of the right to buy or social homebuy.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

My hon. Friend has made a really good point. I will use the same approach as the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire and take the second amendment first. He dealt with the second amendment in three or four sentences in order to get to the party-political bashing of the Thames Gateway, but the right to buy and low-cost home ownership deserve better than that. I agree with my hon. Friends the Members for Edmonton and for Denton and Reddish, whose analysis is exactly right.

In the 20 years or so since the right-to-buy policy has been in place, councils have gradually diminished their housing stock, which they have not replaced. The measures in the Bill will help councils to step up to the plate much more, and they will ensure that there are greater incentives for councils to be part of social housing—I hope that everybody welcomes that. The constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish is very similar to mine—we need more houses and more social houses.

Having said that, it is important that a Labour Government are an ambitious and aspirational Government for the people of the country. Nine out of 10 people would like some sort of home ownership, and it is right and proper that the Government do all that they can to encourage that. One of the objectives of the HCA stated in the Bill is to improve the supply and quality of housing in England, with a view to meeting the needs of its people. That includes ensuring that housing of all tenures and types appropriate to meeting the needs of the community is provided. The HCA will promote the right to buy and social homebuy, where appropriate.

On a similar theme to that which I have advanced on other amendments, it would be inappropriate to dictate to the agency the precise mechanism by which it delivers on the face of the Bill. Regarding its objective to improve the quality and supply of housing in England, the agency, in partnership with others, will have the expertise to determine what is appropriate. It does not seem sensible to elevate the promotion of a particular tenure type over a general requirement to meet the needs of the community. It is not wise to promote particular schemes through legislation such as this, as circumstances differ and times change—I made a point about future-proofing on an earlier amendment. The legislation will need to be sufficiently flexible to work for the future as well as for today. However, I suggest that the tasking framework will examine the issue and move it forward on the part of the agency.

I spent some time over Christmas promoting a number of initiatives that the Government have advanced with regard to low-cost home ownership. One of those is that service personnel will be classified as key workers, which will boost their buying power in terms of getting a house. I hope that all members of the Committee welcome that. We will be debating on a later clause a means by which service personnel can be helped with regards to housing, and again I hope that that will be welcomed. What came out clearly on Second Reading, to me and other Ministers, was the argument made by hon. Members, and Government Members in particular, that housing is needed not only in London and the south-east, but across the country. To that end, we have extended key worker schemes to all regions to recognise the fact that affordability problems persist across the board. I return time and time again to the central point, which is that we need more homes. We need a variety of homes in order to promote choice as much as possible, which is what the Bill and the establishment of the HCA will help to achieve.

Regarding the Thames Gateway, we had a debate through points of order on the manner of the statement, and I think that the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire recognises my sincerity in trying to ensure that the House, and particularly the Committee, had sight of the statement as early as possible. I take on board what he has said, but I think it important to set the matter in context. The Thames Gateway has entered a new phase with the launch by the Prime Minister on 29 November of the Thames Gateway delivery plan. The plan sets out a clear and compelling long-term strategic direction for the gateway and for what the Government will do to provide the basis for private sector investment.

It is vital that the arrangements to deliver those commitments to 2016 and beyond are clear to stakeholders and investors. Listening to the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire, one could be forgiven for thinking that the agency is up and running now and that it will take responsibility for the Thames Gateway on Monday. That is clearly not the case, and there is a very clear road map for how the next phase of the Thames Gateway—the exciting delivery phase—will move forward in the medium term. As I have said, the Thames Gateway delivery plan sets out that clear direction for the coming years. Until April 2009, when the agency becomes established, the DCLG’s Thames Gateway executive will continue to be responsible for driving forward the commitments in the plan. Delivery arrangements will be further strengthened by the establishment of a new management board between the Thames Gateway executive, the three RDAs and the regional directors of the three Government offices.

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I am slightly puzzled. There was a great fanfare at the Thames Gateway forum for the announcement of the delivery plan. Why was the HCA’s involvement not mentioned then, only a handful of working weeks ago? If this was the great plan and programme for the next few years, why has a new element been introduced just five or six weeks later? Was it known then? If so, why was it not announced? If not, why is such a significant delivery vehicle being introduced after the announcement of the great plan for the next 10 years?

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

There is no inconsistency; there is a very clear direction. It is clear that, in the broad sense that I mentioned this morning, communities and local government will set the strategy in the medium term in order to ensure that we have housing, growth, regeneration and sustainable development, and that different and appropriate delivery mechanisms are produced as close to the community as possible. We are going to do that with the establishment of the HCA, and it is entirely right and proper that Thames Gateway could be part of that. I think that the general direction was very clear. I do not want to put words into the hon. Gentleman’s mouth, but I suggest that the amendment was a probing one to make sure that we are going down that route. I know that events have moved on, but that was certainly the way things would have gone. It is clear that, the way things are moving, central Government are responsible for strategy, and various organisations —centrally, in this discussion, the HCA—are responsible for delivery.

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I am grateful again for the Minister’s courtesy. We will know more about the allocation of functions as time goes on. I will press him a final time on the time scale and announcement in order to deal with the issue of courtesy to the House and to this Committee. It is clear from what the Minister said on 13 December that there had been some consideration of the matter. When was the decision made? If the decision was made some days ago, why were we not told earlier. It was a material matter for this Committee, which the Minister had promised we would be told about in time for the debate. If it was decided very late, that sounds very strange, bearing in mind what he has said. If it was decided some weeks ago, why were we not told earlier?

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I have made my position quite clear: we were discussing the various functions of the agency, including the Thames Gateway. I tried to make sure that the Committee had sight of the relevant statements as soon as possible, and I hope the Committee acknowledges that.

Moving on, I think we are in a new, very exciting phase of delivery. We have had planning and pre-delivery, but I do not want anyone to think that Thames Gateway has been a failure. Before I was a Minister, I was a member of the Public Accounts Committee, and I absolutely loved being on it. I think that it is a fantastic Committee, but I have to say that I stand shoulder to shoulder with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing in her analysis that the PAC conclusion is out of date. Let me reiterate and advance some of the arguments that my right hon. Friend made in discussions with the hon. Gentleman on 13 December.

We have had real progress with the Thames Gateway. We have had the announcement that Crossrail will proceed through Canary Wharf and Woolwich to Stratford and from Woolwich and Abbey Wood, bringing with it £16 billion investment, opening up new employment opportunities and accelerating housing growth. We have had the completion of the High Speed 1 line, with Eurostar services from St. Pancras stopping at Ebbsfleet, thereby boosting the economic prospects for east London and north Kent still further. We have had planning permission for three substantial gateway projects: the London Gateway, which is a world-class deep-water port and business park; Eastern Quarry, which is a new residential community by Ebbsfleet station; and Barking Riverside, which has the largest residential planning permission ever. We have the opening of the acclaimed O2 concert venue and entertainment complex on the Greenwich peninsula, which had over 600,000 ticket sales in its first three months. I believe Led Zeppelin played there before Christmas and, slightly less interestingly to me, the Spice Girls have played there as well.

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I bet you really are interested.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

Well, of course I am. I have misled the Committee and I apologise. We have seen a huge amount of progress. I do not want to give the Committee the impression that it has been complete failure, because we have seen employment growth of 9 per cent. over 2001 to 2005, which is far faster than the national average. We have funded two new universities—at Southend and Medway—with nearly 5,000 higher and further education places so far to boost the skills of local people. We have procured high-speed domestic services, serving east London and north Kent. We have started construction of the extension to the docklands light railway and have secured doubling of the capacity. I could go on.

I want to give the impression that achievement has been made. It is right, proper and crucially timely that we move to the next phase. We have been entirely consistent in our approach and policy considerations that those responsibilities would move to the agency in the medium term and that the DCLG would set the strategy. I hope that, in the spirit in which I have tried to advance things, the amendments will be withdrawn.

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

As always, I appreciate the Minister’s style. We already have a good relationship, and I think that he is doing a sterling job. He will lay a good foundation for me in a couple of years’ time, and I wish him well. He has made a brave attempt, and I appreciate the spirit in which he has done it.

I will turn to Thames Gateway in a second, but on the hon. Member for Edmonton’s point, which was a good niggle, I want to say that we discussed housing tenure quite a bit in the oral evidence sessions. Housing tenure—both right to buy and social homebuy—is important. We commented that the Government’s efforts to encourage more people into shared ownership and the like have not been terribly successful, but they have been trying. We had a good discussion about that and, for reasons of brevity, I did not want to overplay that with the amendment, which is why I did not say a lot about it. However, the hon. Gentleman is right that the matter is important. Both the Minister and I have dealt with it relatively briefly, but that should not disguise its importance. I did my best in those discussions to indicate my concern about the home ownership issue and whether, as a nation, we are completely fixated on home ownership and whether we need to reconsider housing tenure as one of the answers to the future of housing supply. I stand by that point, which is important to me, and I am sure we will consider the matter further.

The Minister may not be able to answer the question why, if it has all been so good, the chief executive was sacked. If it was because of the change of direction and the HCA coming along in the manner that he described and that the Minister for Housing mentioned on 13 December, there was ample opportunity for the Minister for Housing to say that the next phase was going to be handled differently and that the chief executive was going, but she did not do so. As far as I am aware, the removal of Judith Armitt remains a mystery. There is therefore a cloud over the career of a very good chief executive, which is unfair, and I am not certain whether the matter has been clarified. That is an issue that should not be left, because it is unfair to her—and to the Department if there were a good reason for the change. We do not know, and we should.

In response to the Minister’s general remarks, I say that, “We are where we are,” which is one of the great political phrases in our lexicon—as good as, “I hear what you say.” Of course, we must find out about the detail, and I wish the Thames Gateway well. We know that there have been successes, but people do not feel that the potential has been realised in the manner in which it might have been. My sense is that the Government have recognised that in their direction of travel, but that they find it difficult to say, “We got it wrong.” To that extent, it is good news.

We are still interested in how the local government aspect will be handled and want to ensure that local authorities feel more involved with the new structure than they did with the old, which we will test out in times to come. However, I do not think that anything will be gained from pressing the amendment, because the Government have already conceded the major point in their announcement this morning. The hon. Member for West Ham and I have struck up two wins in this session already, which is sufficient for me.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I think that we are establishing an unhealthy, bipartisan relationship. The hon. Gentleman is more than welcome to cross the Floor.

I would like to put on the record a very serious matter concerning the chief executive. The hon. Gentleman is aware that I cannot comment on the circumstances surrounding the chief executive. Judith Armitt is still an employee of the DCLG. These are internal civil service matters, and he knows that, owing to the personal circumstances, it would be wrong for me to comment.

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I fully accept what the Minister has said. However, this issue probably still needs to be cleared up, because of the uncertainty in the public mind. Until it is cleared up, difficulties will remain.

With that, I think that we have run around the issues quite a bit. We wish the gateway well and look forward to its further progress. I shall be very interested to see how the agency sets about the new structures, and I am looking forward to engaging with it. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

It will not have escaped the attention of the Committee that I allowed some leeway in the discussion of the former chief executive, which might seem slightly harsh in view of the fierceness with which I stamped on the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich. However, I now rule that no further discussion of this issue will be permitted, and my view will be made plain to Mr. Benton. It is a matter for others.

George Young (Conservative, North West Hampshire)

I beg to move amendment No. 16, in clause 2, page 2, line 1, at end insert—

‘(1A) In assessing the needs of people living in England in accordance with subsection (1), the HCA shall take particular account of the changing age profile of the population.’.

We come to the last of the amendments to clause 2. It has been tabled by an Opposition Back-Bench Member and therefore has a fairly short life expectancy. To some extent, the debate on this amendment has been reflected in some of our earlier debates on the assessment of need and on the one that I initiated on disabled people.

The amendment has the support of Help the Aged and Age Concern. Listening to the debates this morning, and to those on the Bill as a whole, I am slightly concerned that the 3 million new homes are targeted at families and key workers, because there is the risk that the needs of the elderly will be squeezed out. For example, the regional spatial strategies published by the Government do not mention age as one of the factors that need to be taken into account. Will the Minister provide some reassurances and answer some questions? When is the Government’s national strategy for housing in an ageing society due to be published—I think that it is some time this month. It would be helpful if we could be given some information on that.

Furthermore, can he bring us up to date on the work of his Department’s housing and older people development group—it is known as HOPDEV—which is a committee driving forward the agenda for housing in an ageing society? My concern is that, given the very large increase in numbers of older households over the next 20 years, there is a risk that those needs will not be taken into account unless some reference is made to them in the Bill. I concede that we are discussing a probing amendment rather than one that has a high expectation of reaching the statute book, but there is a need to reassure elderly people that, as this agenda is driven forward and money is put into housing, the needs of the more elderly people in the population are properly taken into account and that they are not neglected as this agenda is driven forward.

Andrew George (Liberal Democrat, St Ives)

I rise primarily in support of lists, because lists in this inclusive age are not necessarily exclusive. On that basis, the fact that a Bill may include a prompt to an agency that they must have consideration for an ageing population does not necessarily mean that it excludes the possibility of that agency considering other matters as well. In any case, in support of this issue there is a matter which the HCA should consider in its future plans—the matter of preparing itself for adaptations and, in its design guidelines for new developments, making sure that there is the capacity to adapt the design of properties or particular neighbourhoods to take account of an ageing population.

Another matter which arose, as it perpetually does, in the evidence sessions, was that of older people, particularly older single people, living in large family houses, and of there being insufficient incentives within the system to enable or even encourage them to move, releasing the family house and living in appropriate—very comfortable—accommodation. There are, therefore, very strong arguments for considering the issue and for its being part of the HCA’s objectives.

I support the right hon. Gentleman in hoping that the Government will not share the view, which the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich seemed to take in an earlier intervention, that simply creating one additional item on a list by implication denigrates or excludes other matters which are therefore not included on that list. I hope the Minister will take that into account generally, but specifically on this issue.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I am afraid I am going to have to disappoint the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire. The agency, as he is aware and as I have pointed out many times today, must carry out its objects with a view to meeting the needs of people living in England. If that community is ageing—frankly, England is ageing—it will be reflected in their needs. We will ensure that the HCA is appropriately tasked to provide or facilitate the provision of homes appropriate to the needs of the community, including the ageing population. We also see a role for local authorities in ensuring that all housing funded by the public sector is developed to lifetime home standards from 2011, as published in our response to the consultation on the code for sustainable homes, and as I mentioned earlier today. We would expect the agency to work with local authorities and support them in their efforts to develop lifetime homes.

The social exclusion unit report, “A Sure Start to Late Life: Ending Inequalities for Older People”, identified a number of key issues in relation to housing and support services for older people, such as access to information, housing options, joining up support services and maintenance and repair. We have started to address those issues through technical consultation, and we will continue to work with stakeholders to ensure that the final, updated technical guidance included in the CSH technical manual is appropriate and achievable. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned two direct questions: one about the national strategy for housing in an ageing society, and one about the strategy advisory group, the housing and older people development group.

I do not want to box in my noble Friend Baroness Andrews, who is leading on that issue in the Department, but the strong expectation—I discussed it with her on Monday—is that both things will be published imminently, certainly by February. I hope that that does not box her in too much and that it reassures the right hon. Gentleman. On the basis of that and the fact that he knows that I do not particularly agree with the list principle, I hope that he will withdraw the amendment.

George Young (Conservative, North West Hampshire)

I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. He sugared the pill as best he could. I recognise that the Government will not accept the amendment and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I was trying to catch your eye, Mr. Gale.

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

It is too late. It always breaks the civil servants’ hearts when I deny the Minister the opportunity to read the brief.

Clause 5

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 2—Restrictions on powers

‘(1) Nothing in Part 1 shall allow the HCA to develop or facilitate the development of green belt land.

(2) The HCA shall not provide or facilitate the development of housing before infrastructure has been provided or facilitated under section 7.

(3) Before exercising its powers under sections 5 to 7 the HCA shall consult with the local authorities in the areas where such powers are to be exercised.

(4) In this section “green belt land” shall be construed in accordance with section 87(1)(e) of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990.’.

New clause 13—Obligations

‘Before exercising any of its powers the HCA shall—

(a) consult with, and have regard to the views of, relevant local authorities;

(b) have regard to the desirability of preserving gardens and urban green spaces;

(c) have regard to the desirability and practicality (in any particular case) of residential development forming part of any development for commercial purposes (adequately supported by suitable community, cultural and leisure facilities);

(d) undertake site-specific flood risk assessments before acquiring or disposing of housing or other land and ensure that any new development undertaken or procured by it is flood resilient and resistant, subject to a presumption against any development on flood zones adjacent to rivers, the sea and tidal sources;

(e) in this section “green space” means—

(i) land laid out as a public garden;

(ii) land used for the purposes of public creation; or

(iii) an area of open space which benefits wildlife or biodiversity’.

New clause 14—Powers: regard to market conditions

‘In exercising its power to acquire or dispose of housing or other land the HCA shall have regard to market conditions’.

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

If I do not stand up quickly you might railroad through this one as well.

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

Order. The Chair does not railroad through anything.

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

I apologise.

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

Order. The job of the Chair is to take the feeling and the mood of the Committee and to respond accordingly.

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

With that, Mr. Gale, I have to say that spending all day going through clauses 1 and 2 has no doubt moved the Committee to move briefly through clauses 3 and 4.

The new clauses refers to the powers and restrictions on the powers of the newly formed agency. The clauses concentrate on the central concern, that we certainly have on this side of the Committee, about the power that will be vested in the HCA. The HCA will, of course, collect the powers of both English Partnerships and the Housing Corporation, but rather than just combing the two sets of powers in one neat location, the new agency will have additional powers. Because of the way in which the legislation is drafted, it is not clear where some of those powers end.

In particular, the legislation is not specific on the protection of the existing green belt in terms of the extent to which it can be redefined and changed to meet objectives through what are effectively tricks, such as claiming that it will be protected and even enlarged, but in fact deleting and moving parts of it to achieve a particular objective. New clause 2 addresses some of those points and also mentions the power of the HCA—the new overarching agency—over local authorities, and particularly the partnership between the HCA and local authorities.

In the evidence session, the Minister for Housing went to some lengths to try to reassure us that it was a benign agency, which would use its powers responsibly and carefully by consulting local authorities. The excellent example of Milton Keynes was drawn on as an example of where local authorities were happy to work in partnership and in some cases to provide powers to an outside body, in that particular case along with English Partnerships. Our concern is that if one simply reads the clauses and powers within the Bill, it is perfectly plain that in the wrong hands the agency would be all-powerful—it would have awesome power. In order to have an agency with powers sufficient to ride roughshod over local opinion, two factors are needed—or perhaps only one. It would certainly require a Minister who was prepared to have the agency act in a particularly overpowering manner, and perhaps a chief executive who was prepared to use the powers contained in the Bill in a manner that was not in the interests of the local community.

Although it may not be the intention of the present Minister for Housing or the newly appointed chief executive to use the powers in that way, the danger is that a future Administration might do so. It comes down to deciding what is the best way to deliver the Government’s objective of building 3 million homes by 2020—of building far more affordable homes and catching up on the 1980s and 1990s, when more social housing was built every year than over the past decade. If those objectives are to be met, it seems to us that it ought to be based on the bottom-up rather than the top-down principle.

The new clauses seek in some way to introduce into the Bill the principle that local communities know best, that they can improve the chances of delivery instead of diminishing them. Rather than being a problem, rather than being nimbys and rather than being the ones who always object to developments, local communities could assist with the whole process of development, if they were given the right incentives. If they were trusted and able to contribute, they could help the Government to meet those objectives faster and more efficiently. If the resources were made available, as proposed in new clause 2, many of the objections of local communities would fall.

In saying that, I draw on my constituency and my own experience. The Government want to build 10,000 new homes. A start has already been made: 2,000 have been built and we would be happy to have 6,000. However, building 10,000 when only last week the closure of the local hospital was announced does not sit well with local people. The problem with the powers given under these early clauses is that the Bill does not define the limits of the HCA’s power. Effectively, communities would be constantly overridden by the desire of the HCA to get on with things, instead of taking account of the feelings of the community on such things as green space and infrastructure by planning at a much more local level. That is an overview of the things that new clause 2 seeks to achieve.

New clause 13 deals with something about which I think both sides of the Committee agree. I represent the constituency of Welwyn Hatfield, which includes Welwyn Garden City, a new town that is often studied as an example of good town planning. I was recently in Poundbury, Prince Charles’s new town, and it used Welwyn Garden City as an example of good town planning. One aspect of good town planning is that one can work and live in the same area. That cuts congestion and is more environmentally friendly, and it was being done decades ago.

The provisions of new clause 13 indicate our belief that the HCA ought to consider the extent to which it is practical for industry, business and living accommodation to be provided in the same areas. Studies have been undertaken in many parts of the world, notably through some incredible experiments with that approach both here and in the United States. In the States, some of the most progressive planning thinkers have been looking again at the principles behind the new town—the traditions of Ebenezer Howard—and trying it out again, which makes perfect sense. In Poundbury, one quarter of the buildings are business-related and industrial. One would not know it to look at the place. There are no smoking factories. People can literally walk to work, which reduces congestion and is environmentally friendly. It would make sense, through new clause 13, for the HCA to have regard to the possibility, desirability and practicality of including developments for commercial purposes within residential areas.

We are also concerned about the proper assessment of flood risk, and the new clause would again cover it. I do not need to remind anybody of the problems that flooding caused last year. A huge amount of new housing is proposed on flood plains, not least one quarter or even one third in the Thames Gateway. If one is going to build in flood-risk areas, every possible precaution should be taken and examination made to protect those houses. The new clause would help to focus attention on flood risk.

Finally, new clause 14 would prevent the HCA—that huge body with overarching powers—from distorting the local market. Reading the Bill, we perceive a danger that has in fact happened in reality. I have some examples if the Minister is interested. The danger is that the power to control the marketplace—the size and ability to decide to pick up a plot of land—can distort the area, its housing requirements and its market conditions.

We have seen the danger with English Partnerships and housing associations. It happens at this time of year, every year, because if there is money in the budget, it is used to pick up land so that it has been spent before the April deadline. When that happens, local market conditions are not always taken into account, so the new clause is a call to ensure that this great new body, this huge agency, with a massive budget and the potential to shape the places in which it operates, does not push out the normal activity of other house builders and people who are trying to provide facilities for the community. Instead, as the new clause says, when the agency acquires and disposes of housing and other land, it should have regard to the exercise of its powers and its impact on the surrounding market. The new clause is a plea to ensure that the HCA does not skew the market.

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

Order. Just before we proceed, Sir George, may I remind the Committee of our arcane procedures? New clauses 2, 13 and 14 will not be moved now. If the movers of any of those clauses wish to move them, they must indicate that to the Chair, and we will call them at the appropriate time. No motion other than the stand part motion will be taken now.

George Young (Conservative, North West Hampshire)

I wish to raise one particular point on clause stand part. It relates to clause 5(1), which states:

“The HCA may provide housing”.

Will the Minister explain in what circumstances the HCA itself will provide housing? The Housing Corporation, to my knowledge, has never provided houses; it has done what is provided for in the next subsection, clause 5(2), which is,

“facilitate the provision of housing”.

In other words, the Housing Corporation has funded housing associations, and they have provided the houses. I do not see why the HCA itself needs the powers to provide housing.

The Minister may say that English Partnerships had the power, which is simply being transported in the Bill, but English Partnerships has never had the direct relationship with housing associations that the HCA will have. Given that we do not want centralisation and want to devolve, why is the HCA being given powers to develop, own and provide housing itself? I see its role as facilitator, enabler and resource provider for other people who are going to do that.

When the Minister replies to my hon. Friend, will he also explain why we need subsection (1) and in what circumstances the powers might be used?

Andrew George (Liberal Democrat, St Ives)

The intention behind the new clauses is by and large laudable—protecting gardens, for example, and ensuring that the HCA’s activities have regard to the market. Having said that, on new clause 14, the HCA and the bodies that provide land—as the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire has said, it will largely be the housing associations—will have a perpetual impact on the market. Given that the purpose of the Bill is to assist the Government in reaching a substantial target, we cannot ignore that fact. One assumes that it will have regard to the market to ensure that it maximises outcomes, rather than the other way round.

What concerns me about the new clauses is that they are primarily suitable for another Bill—a planning Bill. Sympathetic as I am to the objectives behind them and the sentiments expressed and implied in them, I cannot support them because their implications mean they are for a planning Bill. I am keen for this Bill to allow the HCA to count in its housing figures properties that are currently used as second homes but that would be changed into permanent residences, but that would require a change in planning law. The protection of gardens would require a similar change. I am sympathetic towards those objectives, but this Bill is not necessarily the best vehicle to achieve them.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I welcome your ruling on clause stand part debates, Mr. Gale. The substantial debate that we had this morning took into account the provisions of clauses 3 and 4, which we moved past quickly.

Clause 5 is extremely important, because it sets out the power to be given to the agency to facilitate the provision of housing and other land. That power is central to the HCA’s ability to meet the Government’s target set out in the housing Green Paper and contribute to the additional 3 million homes by 2020. As we have said before, the power brings land, including public sector land, and housing into one national agency. To ensure that the HCA can contribute to the target, we need to allow it to be a direct provider of housing should the circumstances require it.

On the point that the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire rightly made, the HCA will have the option of providing housing directly, but I anticipate that that will not be the primary way in which it will support housing growth. I shall give an example. We would want the agency to be able to step in if a developer went bust, rather than lose its investment or the benefits that would have accrued had the development been delivered. Without that specific power, the agency would not be able to take such a step.

George Young (Conservative, North West Hampshire)

But in practice, if that happened, would not the Housing Corporation nominate a local housing association to run it, rather than step in itself?

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

As I have said, the number of times that that might happen would be remarkably low, but it is still important that that power is contained in the Bill to ensure that if something like that happens, the delivery of 3 million homes is not compromised. That is an important point.

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

Will the Minister explain, then, why the Housing Corporation does not have those same powers?

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

The whole point of establishing the HCA is to bring land and regeneration under one powerful agency that consults local authorities and works in conjunction with them to ensure that housing need is assessed and delivered. The powers in this part of the Bill will help to do that.

The definition of “provide” in the clause includes improvement or repair. That is to enable the agency to step in to ensure that tenants are not left to suffer in sub-standard accommodation if their landlord fails. As with the direct provision of housing, we do not expect the agency to act as a landlord as a matter of course, but it should not be unable to do so if the need arises.

Clause 5 is necessary to enable the agency to provide land under any circumstances. In order to unlock the development potential of a site and gain a large proportion of affordable housing on that site, the agency might have to provide a strip of land, perhaps to give reasonable and safe access to the site. Without the power to provide land, that would be impossible. Clause 5 also empowers the agency to facilitate the provision of housing or other land, which will be essential to its work. The agency must be free to assemble sites and make them available to other bodies to deliver development. Without the power to facilitate the provision of housing or other land, it would not be able to do so.

New clauses 2 and 13 would introduce requirements to consult that would serve to slow down or even stop the agency from delivering on the ground. New clause 2 would add an additional level of protection to the green belt, but that is unnecessary because the green belt is already heavily protected and nothing in the Bill will change that. Those further restrictions could block all development involving the agency on the green belt. It is not our intention that the agency will be involved in developments on the green belt as a matter of course, but neither do we want restrictions that do not apply to any other body or would-be developer to apply to the agency.

The green belt is very important, and has helped to restrict urban sprawl as much as possible. The proportion of land that is designated as green belt has increased since 1997, but green belt is a planning designation, not a reflection of the importance or quality of biodiversity. It is important to protect the countryside, as we have discussed, but green belt is not, strictly speaking, a means of doing that; it is a planning designation. As the Prime Minister has rightly said, we do not intend to change the provisions on green belt, which has been a helpful planning policy tool for the past half century. It has served us well and will continue to do so.

Let me reassure the Committee by reiterating that the creation of the agency will not make development on the green belt any more likely. The agency will be bound by planning legislation, like any other would-be developer. Any development would take place only with appropriate planning permission, and the planning process will require consideration of whether there is sufficient justification for that development.

New clause 2 would also impose an unnecessary restriction on how the agency might deliver housing. To deliver its objectives, the agency must meet the needs of communities. If the agency provided housing developments without appropriate infrastructure, those developments would clearly fail to meet the needs of the communities within them and the agency would therefore fail to deliver on its objectives. Clause 7, which we will discuss later, is very important for infrastructure and, with your permission, Mr. Gale, I should like to discuss this issue in that debate.

On new clause 2, we do not think that it would help the practical delivery of housing to dictate to the agency how it must structure its developments. We consider that the order in which a development progresses is best determined by those delivering it, and we do not think that it would be helpful to impose in legislation a universal order, which would tie the agency’s hands. Furthermore, an explicit requirement in the Bill for the agency to provide the necessary infrastructure before delivering housing would severely compromise its ability to negotiate with developers or other bodies over such provision. Why would an organisation provide any infrastructure, if it knew that the agency would have to do it anyway, under this Bill, before development could progress? That would not help anybody.

New clause 13 would introduce a number of additional requirements on the agency prior to its exercising its powers, which, in some cases, would do no more than create an extra layer of bureaucracy and overburden the agency. It is unnecessary. The new clause would also provide for a duty to

“consult with, and have regard to the views of, relevant local authorities”.

In many cases, the relevant local authority will be directly involved anyway, and further consultation would be a waste of time. For example, development undertaken by the agency would still require planning permission, which in most cases will be determined by the local planning authority.

The obligation to have regard to the preservation of gardens and urban green spaces is met in clause 34, which enables the agency to contribute to the achievement of sustainable development. We discussed that at length earlier. Any development undertaken by the agency will have to accord with national and local planning policies, and it will be made clear in the organisation’s tasking framework that we expect high environmental and sustainability standards.

The obligation to have regard to mixed-use development sits at the heart of the agency’s objectives, which are to develop and regenerate land. That forms an important element in national planning policy, to which the agency will need to have regard. It will also have the power to provide infrastructure, which will include the building of community facilities. The final point made by the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield was about undertaking

“flood risk assessments before acquiring or disposing of housing or other land”,

and the introduction of

“a presumption against any development on flood zones adjacent to rivers, the sea and tidal sources”.

I do not know what effect that would have in my constituency of Hartlepool.

As I have already mentioned, the agency will have the same obligations in relation to developments and flood risk as any other developer. I reiterate that clause 34 allows the agency to contribute to and facilitate the achievement of sustainable development. The Committee has made it clear that it would like the Government to strengthen that clause, and I am very amenable to that.

New clause 14 would require the agency to

“have regard to market conditions”.

That is a particularly curious new clause. Whether or not the housing market cools, affordability will remain a problem to be addressed. Regardless of the condition of the market, regeneration will remain a priority for this Government. We still need to increase the supply of homes that are badly needed for our people, which is why the Government have announced the 3 million new homes by 2020.

Grant Shapps (Conservative, Welwyn Hatfield)

Just to clear up the confusion, the problem is that the HCA will have powers to buy up land when, perhaps, a small housing association might be about to do the same—that happened in my own constituency. Will the Minister look again at the ways in which the HCA could end up distorting the market? That is already happening with the current set-up, and I am concerned that it will get embedded in the Bill as well. Perhaps he will undertake to look at evidence that I could provide.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I am grateful for that clarification. During our consideration of clause 10, when we will talk about best consideration for market value, we might discuss the hon. Gentleman’s point, which is an important one. We need to strike a balance, which we can do during our consideration of that clause. I do not think that the agency’s proposed compulsory purchase powers will affect the housing market. The valuation of land for compulsory purchase will be the same as by agreement—the market value of the land in the absence of the scheme.

The new clauses have no value in providing for additional protection or meaningful consultation, but they would delay necessary delivery and increase bureaucracy. I cannot believe that to be the outcome that the hon. Gentleman intends. Should the new clauses be moved, I hope that they will be withdrawn fairly quickly. I wish to see clause 5 stand part.

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

Just before we proceed, I need to indicate to the Committee something of which the Front-Bench Members are already aware. Should we get to schedule 2, Government amendment No. 17 will be taken, as it is relevant. Ministers have requested that Government amendments Nos. 18 and 19, which relate to schedule 3, be taken under schedule 3. I have agreed to that. So there will be a slight change to the order set out on the selection list.

Clause 6

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

The debate provides for a short comment from myself and an opportunity for the Minister to give us some sense of how regeneration powers are going to be used. I shall bring to the Committee’s attention some of the briefings that we have had from outside bodies that are concerned that the housing element will dominate the regeneration element of the new agency and worried that, in the pursuit of targets and numbers, other things may be lost. I will mention two or three of those things.

The British Urban Regeneration Association does great work, and I am sure that it is already known to the Minister. It has a particular concern. It says:

“The new agency appears to be only concerned with physical regeneration with only passing aspiration to furthering community development...The primary objective is physical regeneration (housing and infrastructure, including premises necessary to provide social and economic services)...Accordingly, all planning and financial powers are oriented to land assembly, remediation, provision or infrastructure, and development...It seems a missed opportunity for an integrated approach to regeneration, where powers and planning of physical regeneration are joined up community support services and providers.”

Perhaps I could flesh this out a bit. In my own work in regeneration, both in the past with city challenge and more recently in my current role, I have been concerned—as I am sure the Minister and the whole Committee are—with the problem that endemic poverty and difficulties in some of our poorest estates are not necessarily relieved simply by changing the physical infrastructure. Yes, one can create bright, new houses, but a number of the people who have been in the most impoverished housing have all sorts of issues—typically, relationship breakdown, addiction, problems with children, poor educational achievement, low aspiration and a sense of hopelessness. Merely moving them out, reconstructing the housing and moving them back in again will not solve those problems.

I have looked at the work done by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith). His work with the Centre for Social Justice has looked at breakdown issues and to what extent some of the things revealed can be tackled through existing regeneration projects. One does not have to accept everything that my right hon. Friend has put forward in his analysis of “Breakdown Britain” and “Breakthrough Britain” to recognise that objective evidence of a series of problems suggests that physical regeneration is not sufficient.

I wanted to task the Minister with the issue raised by BURA. What can he tell us about the clause 6 powers for regeneration being taken in the broadest sense, rather than in the narrowest sense of powers purely for land assembly and dealing with the physical aspects of regeneration? Will the Homes and Communities Agency be able to work in an integrated manner with other—social and community—aspects of regeneration or are the powers and objectives of the agency solely confined to physical regeneration? In the latter case, we would have to look for other mechanisms to work with the agency to tackle the problems that I have just mentioned. BURA is interested in that and thinks that if the agency is not going to do that, it would be a missed opportunity. I am sure that the Minister would not want to miss that opportunity.

Andrew Love (Labour, Edmonton)

The hon. Gentleman has touched on an incredibly important point. All the evidence on urban regeneration projects for the last 40 years has been that physical regeneration by itself will almost inevitably fail. Does he accept that one of the best ways to intervene to reduce the level of what is called “residualisation” on some estates, is to provide new housing whereby people can be moved physically from those estates to create a more rounded community, thereby helping in the very way that he is talking about?

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

Absolutely. There is no question of disagreement about that. The hon. Gentleman is right. In some of the best examples, a combination of changes in land use and sometimes in density can make things work better—there can even be high density with the right sort of public squares and open spaces—and the provision of new housing can be the key in that respect; some terrific places are being built in some urban areas. Manchester, and other places in the north-west, are great examples.

The point that the hon. Gentleman made at the beginning of his intervention is important. More and more we are coming to realise that it is the combination of the two things we have discussed that is crucial. Outside bodies, who wanted us to scrutinise the creation of the agency in the manner to which I referred at the start of the sitting, expressed some worry, but that is not to deny that it could work very well. However, to ensure that it concentrates on the right thing it must bring together, within its existing terms and objectives, personal and social regeneration and physical regeneration

The second matter arises from one or two different sources. Again, we are not the only ones who worry about the agency pursuing targets and the numbers game being paramount. The brief from the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors states:

“It is essential that a strong commitment to regeneration is retained by the new ‘superquango’. The RICS has concerns that the regeneration aspects of the new body could be lost in the Government’s push to increase house building levels significantly.”

In its submission to the Committee, the Federation of Master Builders, said:

“Genuine concerns about unmet housing needs and house price inflation have meant that the emphasis is on housing numbers. Whilst we acknowledge the need to provide more homes there is also a risk of a return to the numbers game which characterised housing policy in the 1950s and the 1960s.”

My third and final point on the clause is that the federation also raises the interesting matter of how much the new agency will be able to get involved in improving the quality of existing housing, so that the answers to our housing policy are based not just on the provision of new homes. There is no doubt that new homes are needed, but there is still the opportunity to do more with existing homes and existing areas and the federation’s submission talks a lot about that. It says:

“Existing neighbourhoods, villages and towns can solve the housing crisis by offering an estimated 18 million family sized homes, empty and underused buildings, ready infrastructure and other small underused spaces that have the capacity to meet the Government’s projected housing need.”

I am interested in the answers to three questions: first, how will the new agency ensure that social and physical regeneration are handled together? Secondly, how can the Minister further reassure the Committee and the outside bodies that made representations that it is not just a numbers game? Thirdly, to what extent will the agency also be charged with the need to regenerate existing neighbourhoods and communities without new build but with existing properties, using regeneration in that sense?

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

I am probably about to make a rod for my own back, but the hon. Gentleman referred to infrastructure. As the provisions of clauses 6 and 7 are closely inter-related, if hon. Members wish to refer to either or both, and to take both stand part debates together, I shall not be too concerned.

Andrew George (Liberal Democrat, St Ives)

The circumstances have changed with your ruling, Mr. Gale. Both the clauses deal with regeneration and infrastructure. During the evidence sessions in December I was, as the Minister knows, seeking evidence in the Bill that the important role played for many years by English Partnerships would be taken forward in this new agency. The role simply was not sufficiently spelt out. As the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire said, there are concerns that the motivation behind this is to achieve a numbers gain for the Government with regard strictly to housing. There is a fear that, irrespective of comments about physical infrastructure, the workshop development role of English Partnerships and its other roles in employment and economic regeneration will be subordinated by this Bill. Reading clauses 6 and 7, my fear is that this remains the case. The objectives described in clauses 6 and 7 are sufficiently vague not to reassure me that those aspects will be covered.

I wanted to make a brief contribution at this point, given that I will also raise the matter when I move amendment No. 36 to clause 54. I am concerned that the role that English Partnerships currently plays might not be carried forward in the Bill as presently drafted.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

Thank you, Mr. Gale, for that ruling, which I think is important and shows the very close synthesis between the two clauses. Clause 6 sets out the power of the HCA to regenerate or develop land, to bring about the more effective use of land, and to facilitate the regeneration or development of land or the more effective use of land. Clause 7—which I think is one of the most important clauses in part 1 of the Bill—enables the HCA to provide, or facilitate the provision of, infrastructure.

We have had an interesting but brief debate on this, and I want to point out that the definition of infrastructure here is the same as that used in clause 2; that is, it includes utilities such as gas or water, and retail or other business facilities. I expected to be criticised because the term “infrastructure” was too wide, and so I am pleased that we have not gone down that route. Indeed, the hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire has provided some welcome and thought-provoking suggestions.

As I said earlier, a key object of the HCA is to regenerate communities and support their well-being. We cannot do this simply by providing the bricks and mortar of housing. Hon. Members may recall my saying during the oral evidence session—under threat from my boss, the Minister for Housing, my right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract and Castleford—that if we simply plonk 3 million homes in a field in the middle of nowhere, we will not have done our job. We need sustainable communities that are inclusive, and that also have good, sustained economic bases.

Sir George Young rose—

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

Ah. [Laughter.]

George Young (Conservative, North West Hampshire)

In which case, why did he reject my amendment?

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

As soon as I said “inclusive”, I wondered what on earth I was doing. It is a very important point that a healthy, strong community will be sustainable. That means more than simply homes. A range of infrastructure needs to be in place—roads, retail facilities and community facilities. That is why the HCA will work with other relevant agencies to determine what infrastructure is needed, where it is needed and when it needs to be put in place. In most cases, the agency will facilitate the provision of this infrastructure, but it must also be able to be a direct provider if necessary. That is because, if the agency delivers the needed infrastructure for a development, it may make it more viable for a private developer to invest in the wider development area; the agency’s provision of infrastructure would tip the development for a private developer to provide a large element of social housing.

I have seen this in practice. English Partnerships has pre-funded the southern section of the Bedford western bypass, the A41, which has opened up to the south-west of Bedford two major development areas to which 2,250 homes have been allocated. That is exactly the sort of thing that I imagine the agency doing.

To complement the provision of traditional transport infrastructure, English Partnerships has also been involved in the provision of more community-focused facilities, such as schools and health care facilities.

Alistair Burt (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

Will the Minister use his best endeavours to encourage English Partnerships to work with Bedford borough council to complete the north-western section of the same bypass by using the same skills and facilities? It goes through my constituency and it would be a real help if the job could be done.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

Yes, I shall move swiftly on, Mr. Gale.

The broad definition of infrastructure is very important and quite deliberate. It would be unusual but not impossible for the agency to provide schools and health care facilities to attract and ensure development. English Partnerships has already built 11 schools, one of which, in the Greenwich millennium village, is a primary school with an integrated health centre. Both were operational within weeks of the first residents moving into the village. Again, that is the sort of joined-up thinking that the agency will be able to bring—the skills that are necessary to provide sustainable communities that can really make a difference to the quality of life in our country. It is exactly what I want to see.

The hon. Member for North-East Bedfordshire made a few important points about the comments from the British Urban Regeneration Association. I fully appreciate the fact that the issue is not just about physical regeneration, and that is why the objects of the agency include the continued well-being of communities. That is important, and it is why the definition of infrastructure in clause 7 is broad.

I shall draw the Committee’s attention to clause 33. I do not want to incur your wrath, Mr. Gale, but the clause relates to community service facilities and says that the agency may

“encourage or develop existing or new businesses; provide employment...provide safe and attractive environments; prevent or reduce anti-social behaviour or crime...provide transport services, health services, social, religious or recreational services, or cremation or burial services”.

There are powers already in the Bill to ensure that we can help to produce a well-planned and sustainable community, moving this country forward and regenerating the communities that live in it.

Clause 8

George Young (Conservative, North West Hampshire)

The clause gives the HCA powers to manage and repair housing. I shall return to the point that we discussed briefly in an earlier debate, as we are about to confer those powers on the HCA. I must tell the Minister that if the HCA is going to be not only the provider of resources to housing associations but a potential competitor with them for such development, it will change the whole relationship between the HCA and the housing association movement.

In response to the earlier debate, the Minister said—I hope that I am quoting him correctly—that it would not be a prime objective of the HCA to provide housing. I am not sure whether it should be any objective—prime, secondary or at all. Then, under pressure, he described a scenario in which the HCA might have to intervene, but I was not wholly convinced, and it does not deal with the powers in clause 8. Is it really true that the HCA will manage and repair housing when we have the most well-developed and efficient housing association movement of probably any country in the world?

Clause 35 specifically relates to the HCA acquiring, constructing and converting buildings into such accommodation. The Minister needs to make it clear exactly what the role of the HCA is. Will it be in the business of developing, constructing, managing and repairing, or are those powers only to be used as a last-ditch emergency when all else has failed? If he does see the HCA as a developer, provider and landlord, that gives a totally different complexion to the whole debate about the role of the HCA.

I hope that in replying to clause 8 stand part, the Minister can go a little further than just say that it is not a prime objective of the HCA to provide housing, and make it absolutely clear that the local housing associations will do that, apart from in some exceptional circumstances which he is about to describe.

Iain Wright (Labour, Hartlepool)

I think I am getting older and my knees are not what they were. In order to catch your eye quickly, Mr. Gale, I may need to have a knee replacement operation soon. However, I shall do my best to be quick. [ Interruption . ] I was going to say that perhaps the HCA could provide that.

Let me try to reassure the right hon. Gentleman and clarify what the agency will actually do in respect of housing and regeneration. I expect that it will do several things. It will help local authorities to develop expertise, so that they have the concentration of skills that will allow them to step up to the plate to ensure that they can deliver what is necessary. It will be in a position to lever in private sector finance and to take a strategic view of how and on which sites national needs will be best met. It will acquire land and remediate it to the point at which it becomes viable for a developer to take on further development of it. It will be able to determine what needs to be done on the ground to encourage private sector investment, and to facilitate the appropriate action for providing infrastructure.

However, where the circumstances demand, the agency will be able to take a direct role if it so wishes. Forgive me for using the same language, Mr. Gale—I know that this might not reassure the right hon. Gentleman—but the main thing will be to work in conjunction with local authorities, housing associations and others to bring forward the objects of the agency, rather than to do the work directly itself. However, the option is there should it so wish.

I do not think that I have convinced the right hon. Gentleman, but, to move on to a wider point, clause 8 is about how the HCA can work with land, including buildings. The clause also gives the agency power to reclaim land, which is something that English Partnerships has actively undertaken with a great deal of success. Due to the range of activities that the agency can undertake in respect of land, housing, plant and machinery—for example, acquiring, improving, managing or disposing—it will be able to adopt an innovative approach to delivery.

Those powers will give the agency the best incentive to make the best use of the assets that it acquires, and there is a range of models to help it do that. In order for the agency to fulfil its objects of improving housing stock and regenerating or renewing areas in England, it will need all of those powers.

George Young (Conservative, North West Hampshire)

Mr. Gale, we may have an opportunity on clause 35 to go into this matter in more detail, but I have to say that I do not think that such activities should be an option for the HCA. There might be work that it has to do if there is simply no other agency, but we will need to return later in the Bill to its role. I hope that between now and then the Minister will be able to go back to base and see whether he can go a little further than he has been able to go today towards reassuring the Committee and me about the role of the HCA.