Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill

Public Bill Committee, 18 October 2007.

David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)

I beg to move,

That the Order of the Committee [16th October] be amended by the substitution of the following Table for the table referred to in paragraph (2) of that Order—

TABLE

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

This morning we will hear evidence from representatives of the Youth Justice Board and the Children’s Society. Our witnesses are very welcome to the meeting. As you know, this is a new procedure for the House of Commons, but I believe that it will be helpful in dealing with legislation and, therefore, we will welcome the evidence that you give us today. Please introduce yourselves to the Committee.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Mr. Reitemeier, you are the chief executive of the Children’s Society. Who is your colleague?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Thank you all for coming. I will begin by asking both sets of witnesses to what extent they were consulted before the Bill was printed?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Is that in relation only to part 1 or to other parts of the Bill?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Are you able to tell us—I address this question to both sets of witnesses so feel free to interrupt—your opinion about whether the Bill is likely to result in more children and young people going into custody?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

While we are on the matter of intensive fostering, you will notice that the schedule dealing with the availability of these answers to the cases that will be imposed upon youth courts states that such solutions will not happen unless the Secretary of State certifies that a particular resource is available. This may look nice on paper, but how do you anticipate it working in practice?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

One of the real issues that emerges, which may be something for the Children’s Society to deal with, is that we already know that 27 per cent. of people currently in custody, both adults and young offenders, have been through the care system. I am concerned that compulsory fostering, which some have described as the nationalisation of children, could amount to a further catalyst towards keeping people within the criminal justice system and instead of getting them out of trouble, persuading them to stay in trouble. Is that a fear that we need to concern ourselves with or is it an exaggeration?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Do you not think that one of the problems that many of you are concerned with, both as members of the Youth Justice Board and as directors of the Children’s Society, is that these young teenagers—we are predominantly talking about young teenagers—are the children of very young parents? Obviously, to me both the children and the parents seem quite young. By taking children away from their parents, albeit young parents or parents who may not live very organised lives, are you not increasing the irresponsibility—I mean that not in a pejorative sense, but as a factual description—of parents for their children? Surely we should try to encourage parents to take responsibility for their children rather than passing those children over to the state.

I am not impugning the motives of people who work for local authorities and deal with the care of children, but is it not clear that the state, in whichever guise you care to describe it, is not the best parent? We can see that from the 27 per cent. of children who end up in custody.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Are you confident that the Government and people such as yourselves are keen that this should work? Are there resources available to make it work? I return to my earlier question—this looks nice on paper, but we know that the probation service is under tremendous strain. I accept that the Offender Management Act 2007 may outsource other levels of supervision, but we are talking about money and people. This sort of activity is incredibly resource intensive.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Do we need another Act?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Would Mr. Hickson, who I believe is the policy adviser, like to comment on the questions that have been put?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

My county of Leicestershire saw a terrible event, fortunately some time ago now, in which a person who ran children’s homes was convicted of serious crimes. He subsequently died in prison. Other inquiries have been conducted as a consequence of young children being injured or killed by their foster parents. You know their names better than I.

What modelling have either of you done to see whether there are available resources to do this fostering work, not just in terms of money, but the right sort of people? If we get this wrong, it will cause more problems than we intend to solve. I am interested in whether you think that there is a collection of available foster parents who are not just kind and humane and will look after, feed and clothe the children in their care, but who have the expertise to deal with what are obviously very troubled and difficult young people.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Presumably the foster parents will be entitled to some form of Government funding to assist them with their additional duties. Is it your understanding that the money to fund the fostering arrangements will come out of the Youth Justice Board budget, the central Government budget or the local authority budget? I ask this—it is not a party political point—because historically Governments are good at imposing duties on local authorities but not at sending money along the tunnel to enable them to pay for it. So you get at county hall or borough hall the age old argument: how are we going to pay for this and what will be cut in order to achieve one or more, no doubt entirely admirable, public policy aims? Where is this money coming from that is going to make this work?

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

I entirely support your view that such a programme in working order is better than custody. The evidence is abundantly clear that that is so. I still have a concern—I think this is the point that Mr. Garnier was making—about whether there is a reasonable expectation that local authorities across the country will meet the demands on the other elements of the rehabilitation order. Do you really believe that in a couple of years’ time every court will have these various disposals available to it?

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

You think that a duty should be placed on the children’s department of a local authority to provide those things.

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

Not looking at the new orders, but the existing orders, in the experience of representatives of the Youth Justice Board, do courts at present have available the different disposals that they would want to use throughout the country—or is it patchy, as I suspect?

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

I was thinking in terms of the other possible disposals, such as drug rehabilitation. In your experience, how available is that?

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

That is precisely my point: it is different in different areas.

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

I simply do not accept that. All the evidence shows that class A drugs are available right across the country. You are saying that a child in Somerset with a class A drug abuse problem does not have the same rights as a child in Lambeth. That does not seem right to me.

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

That would be helpful. May I just move very quickly, Sir Nicholas, to a wider issue about the youth rehabilitation order? The YRO puts together a lot of different elements. Is there any concern that that will engender tariff inflation from the bench—that there will be a suspicion that the resulting order will be out of proportion to the offence that is under consideration?

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

May I ask one more question, Sir Nicholas? I know that Mr. Burrowes, my colleague, will want to pursue that matter.

The YRO is now really quite a serious disposal short of custody. A rehabilitation order has a lot of elements and places quite a lot of demands on a young person. Given that, should that young person have representation by right? I see Mr. Reitemeier nodding.

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

I am grateful for your answer.

Nick Hurd (Conservative, Ruislip - Northwood)

I have one brief question about the YRO. Do you regret the absence of an alcohol treatment requirement from that package? My main question is in relation to part 2 of the Bill, which is on sentencing, and the proposal to extend referral. We heard from the Magistrates Association that referrals have not proved effective penalties for young people committing serious crimes, and I would be very interested in your view about the proposal to extend them.

David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)

Do you believe that the Bill as drafted will allow young people who are involved with alcohol to be examined under the YRO as it stands, or would we need to make a separate amendment to consider the question of alcohol?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

May I ask the witnesses to look at amendment No. 106, on page 49 of the amendment paper, which was tabled by my hon. Friends and me? If you have any views on the drafting of that amendment we would be very grateful to have them—not now, but later.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

On a point of clarification for us, have you seen a copy of the amendment paper, which is a public document? Mr. Garnier referred to amendment No. 106; it would be worth your looking at it, so that in a moment or two, when Mr. Hurd has finished his questions, you might comment with more knowledge on whether you would be sympathetic to its content. Mr. Hurd?

Nick Hurd (Conservative, Ruislip - Northwood)

I have finished my questions, Sir Nicholas.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

You have finished. Mr. Burrowes, then.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

I want to pick up on the point about referral orders and the question whether magistrates need to have more discretion to take a view on the more serious offences and on whether to impose a non-custodial option, rather than going from a referral order to custody. Is not the concern also that there are those categories of offence, even though they may be a first offence, where a diversion—that is what we hope a referral order will be—is not appropriate? The advantage of a robust community disposal, which may ensure that a person does not reoffend, is also that they will have a criminal record of a conviction rather than the referral and diversion from the system which is warranted by less serious offences.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

We heard about the dilemma when the magistrates court is presented with a relatively less serious—although still serious—matter of robbery, which they do not feel it appropriate to deal with by way of a referral order because it could lead to the conviction being spent. However, they do not want to go up to a custodial option; they want a robust community disposal that also retains the element of a conviction from the court that will not be spent.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

It is a real problem.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

As a practitioner in youth courts, the dilemma is often that you know that an offender will likely receive a custodial sentence, because magistrates do not want to see them get off by way of a referral order that would be spent, so they ratchet it up into the custodial system.

Picking up on the discussions about the availability of drugs and alcohol, a common concern is that young people, particularly if they have problem with drugs and alcohol, receive treatment immediately. Whether in the Bill or generally, do you know of an approach that could lead to a more immediate disposal in terms of referral to drug or alcohol treatment, whether through more availability of youth drug courts or more immediate treatment? To back up that point, there is a concern that referral orders do not necessarily lead to immediate action and activity, and that there is a time lag before they receive that rehabilitative assistance.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I think that Simon Hickson would like to come in on this question.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Edward, do you want to come in on this question or another one?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

I wanted to pick up on an answer that was given a moment ago, but perhaps Mr. Burrowes would like to finish his line of questioning first.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

On the discussions over the hierarchy within the youth rehabilitation order, it is conceded, is it not, that the requirements vary in their robustness and, essentially, their severity and would perhaps be treated by the court in that manner, so there is a hierarchy within the order. Why then, in your evidence, does the Youth Justice Board make the point that it is important to have the reparation order separate from the rehabilitation order, and to have that hierarchy, if there is indeed a hierarchy inbuilt within the rehabilitation order? In one sense, that hierarchy has already gone by the removal and attendance centre order through to a supervision order. I do not see the logic of that argument.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

Which is the present situation, in terms of ISSPs.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

Yes, but the present situation.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

Which is the present situation in the youth courts.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

Part 5 deals with the alternatives to prosecution and the youth conditional cautioning approach. What involvement do you envisage for the youth offending team, and how encompassing will those conditions be in terms of rehabilitation?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Arising from one of the answers that you gave a moment ago about the number of hours of work that can be imposed upon young people, do you think that the Bill has the range of hours that can be imposed about right, or do you think that it should be left entirely to the discretion of the court? If it thinks that more than the maximum, or some other disposal, is the right answer, should the court have that power?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

You are building in failure?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

I sit as a recorder. I sentence and try people over the age of 18. I have no experience of the youth courts, unlike David Burrowes. One of the problems I find with sentencing offenders to community sentences, particularly if they are utterly disorganised people, addicted to some noxious substance or other, is that they have no understanding of how to run an organised life. You say, “Turn up and meet your probation office at such and such a time,” but they do not “do” telling the time. They do not “do” Monday, Wednesday or Tuesday. They only “do” light and dark, asleep and awake. [ Interruption. ] It is not a frivolous point, I can assure you. Those are the sort of people that the courts are dealing with.

Too often, Members of Parliament know nothing about what goes on in the courts. That may be true of Ministers too, I do not know. Too often, we pass laws that look wonderful on paper, as I said earlier, but we fail to understand the category of person that comes through the courts in industrial quantities. It is important that, when we create those long menus of sentences, we understand how they are supposed to be used, not only by the court and the supervisors, but by the offenders. It is important that we hear from you, as hugely experienced people, how the sentences are likely to work with the sort of children and young people that Mr. Burrowes and I have to deal with as sentencers.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

So that is the ideal.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

So who will be responsible for co-ordinating this, or does that just fall through the grating?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

And out of their budget.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

No doubt we would want to consider that, but it is the Government who write the Bill. You have probably had more contact with the Government than many people in this field and certainly you have greater practical experience of what happens.

I have experience of what bits of legislation within the criminal justice system look like when they are implemented by the courts. I am teased constantly by my full-time judge colleagues at Judicial Studies Board conferences and training sessions when they say to me, “Did you know what you were doing when you passed this?” and, “Why on earth did you pass this Act of Parliament in this way?” I reply that we did not get on to discuss clauses 95 to 400 in Parliament, because the Bill simply did not have time to be discussed properly.

It is hugely important, if this new system of evidence taking is to work, that the real experiences of people such as yourselves and those whom you represent can be fed into the Bill at an early stage. We start the line-by-line Committee stage next Tuesday. If possible, I would very much like you to rewrite the Bill between now and next Tuesday, but I have a suspicion that that will not happen. Within the realms of politeness and good manners, and understanding the constitution of our country, are you concerned that this is yet another piece of legislation that it will be quite difficult to make work, irrespective of the no doubt wonderful motives of those who have written it?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Mr. Finegan, a head-on block.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

But the local authority, if it is held to account by the court, will simply say, “I am very sorry, but we have not got any money,” or, “We do not have the personnel,” or, “We do not have this, that or the other.” What is the judge to do—sit there and break his pencil?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

A Home Office Minister, Mr. Vernon Coaker, would like to intervene at this stage.

Vernon Coaker (Labour, Gedling)

May I move on to some of the other parts of the Bill? I have seen the submissions that have been made, both from the Youth Justice Board and the Children’s Society, on a number of issues. I would just like some general comment on the points that you have made about violent offender orders, on the street offences with respect to prostitution, the antisocial behaviour element and closure of premises, where you have made some points, particularly as those measures obviously refer to young people.

How do you think that the Bill balances the needs of children as victims, in terms of being victims of crime, and children in the sense of being offenders? I ask that because there is a real issue here. I absolutely take the point that sometimes, particularly from the point of view of the Children’s Society, the perspective is of the child who may be an offender, to look at them in terms of them being a victim. That is absolutely right, and we have to identify and understand those children’s needs and do everything that we can to support them. However, for many of us as Members of Parliament, representing people, we also have a huge number of young people and children who demand that we take much tougher action than we actually do against some of these very young people who are causing considerable problems. It is the issue of balance. I wonder whether you would like to comment on all of that, both from a youth justice perspective and from a Children’s Society perspective.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Let us take the youth justice point first.

Vernon Coaker (Labour, Gedling)

This is a very interesting discussion because it drives where you go to with the Bill and the points about the Bill. It is this question of balance. I take the point about confidence. Let me give you an example of the problem that we all wrestle with. Take the premises closure orders, and this is the point that Mr. Robb made about the need to have safeguards. It could be that you close down premises with some children in it. In those circumstances clear safeguards would be needed for those children.

I am a big supporter of premises closure orders, but there are those who would argue that because children are involved under no circumstance should any premises ever be closed. I know that that is not what is being said. I am merely setting the Bill in context. In my view the fact that such bad antisocial behaviour has attached to premises over a persistent period of time has an immense impact on other children in the area. Secondly, if we get the safeguards that Mr. Robb and Mr. Reitemeier were talking about, it will force the system to address the needs of those young people in those premises, which sometimes appear simply to bumble along without anyone saying, “This is now a crisis. We are going to get hold of this.”

Vernon Coaker (Labour, Gedling)

I think that the point is that the premises closure order would be used at the point at which virtually everything else has been tried. It will be the last resort element. You would have expected all of that to have been done and to have almost failed. That is the issue.

Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)

I have a general question for the panel. You mentioned that child violence—youth violence—was on the increase. First, why do you feel that that is so? Why do you feel that, increasingly, we are hearing of young people maiming and killing each other in society? What do you think is the cause of that?

Charles Walker (Conservative, Broxbourne)

It is just an observation, but talking to some communities where antisocial behaviour is a problem, the overriding message I get is about a lack of aspiration. The youngsters in their community have no concept that there is something better and something that they can aspire to.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Do members of the Committee have any further questions?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

A number of the Bill’s provisions are designed to help young people and to reassure the public that the Government are doing something about the matter. I return to the point raised about closing premises. Is there a danger that the Bill suggests that closing the premises is the answer? That is where the measure comes to a halt. It fails to appreciate that you need to do something after that.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Have you had discussions among yourselves and with the Bill drafting team and the ministerial team about your concerns?

David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)

In the short time left, Mr. Coaker has asked me to say that he believes that crack house closures have been a great success in terms of preventing drug abuse by young people, but that is not the point. Given the time, I will respond quickly. We have taken the decision to split the reparation order from the rehabilitation order. I would like a short, one-word answer as to whether both parties supported that split, and if they had any views upon it.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Let us start with the Youth Justice Board.

David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)

Yesterday, the Magistrates Association was very strong in its view that that should be subsumed. Obviously it would be a matter of debate in Committee, and I wanted to get a clear view from you on whether you supported the Government’s approach, in the 30 seconds that are left.

David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)

I was not referring to No. 106—that is an Opposition amendment that may find some sympathy in broad terms, but as ever, I am sure that on examination it will have some drafting failures within it.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

We try to be helpful.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I believe that I can call it 10.25 am. I am obliged to adjourn the Committee until 1 o’clock. I thank our witnesses very much for the evidence that they have all given. It has been most helpful to the Committee, and I thank you on behalf of it.

Written evidence to be reported to the House

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Mr. Shaw, you are on your own. I normally ask our witnesses to identify themselves, but I do not think we need to ask you to do that because you are, of course, the prisons and probation ombudsman, and we welcome you here this afternoon. I am sorry that we kept you waiting for a few minutes, but we had a certain amount of private business to conduct before we went public.

Your first questioner will be Mr. Garnier, who speaks for Her Majesty’s Opposition.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

How do you see your job, post implementation of the Bill, relating to that of the inspector of prisons, the director of the prison service and the Secretary of State or the Minister of State with responsibility for prisons?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

I am glad you mentioned that particular aspect of the Bill, as one of my concerns is that from clause 37 onwards, investigations are requested by the Secretary of State. “Request” is an interesting word to use in this context; it seems to be a dressed-up way of saying things that he can tell the commissioner to do. If you look at clause 37, you will see that the Secretary of State will be entitled to

“request the Commissioner to investigate any matter mentioned in”

various subsections of the clause. Essentially, the Bill specifies what the Secretary of State may order the commissioner to do.

I was interested to hear what you said about the nature of the office. The commissioner will have similar powers to a High Court judge, but not the independence. On geographical matters, do you work from an office within the Ministry of Justice or Home Office,or do you have a self-standing building?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Constitutionally, would you think it more appropriate if you were not—I use this language loosely—an employee of a Government Department but, like a judge, simply appointed by the Government or the Crown?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Do you think that the commissioner’s remit will be wide enough in terms of premises? From my own experience, and from briefings and so on with outside bodies, I have concerns about the fact that you cannot look at every form of involuntary custody. I accept that the military system is excluded—it is under a different set-up—but is the remit sufficient to cover all local authority involuntary accommodation?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Perhaps it could be sorted out by increasing your remit to cover those children in local authority care by order of a criminal court as opposed to a family court or—

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

I can see that.

The Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 has been the subject of quite heated discussion in Parliament over the last year or so, particularly in relation to the application of that law to custodial and police premises. It is in, but it is a case of “Oh Lord, make me perfect, but not yet.” It does not apply to the Prison Service and police cells for three years.

Forgetting the party politics of this, as a dispassionate but clearly interested observer, would it assist you or the commissioner if the Act applied to custodial premises immediately, not least because it seems from the clauses of the Bill that we are concerned with now that sometimes you may have to defer or at least have the power to defer an investigation until criminal proceedings are concluded? I can see a situation in which, at the moment, with the three-year delay, you might be investigating something that ought more properly to be investigated by the police as opposed to the Health and Safety Executive, and things may happen or not happen, documents may or may not disappear and witnesses may or may not have statements taken from them, which could inhibit either your processes or the Crown Prosecution Service processes in arriving at justice.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Three hon. Members are waiting to speak, but do follow that up very quickly, Mr. Garnier.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Just as a matter of procedure, do you conduct your investigations in public hearings, as in a court, or do you visit places and find things out?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

But do you think that the system set out in this part of the Bill provides the commissioner with sufficient flexibility to hold either open or private court hearings or strictly investigative procedures?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Do you think that the commissioner should also be a coroner?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Thank you. Three hon. Members have caught my eye: the Minister from the Ministry of Justice, David Hanson, David Burrowes and Maria Eagle, another Minister. Perhaps you will strike first, Mr. Hanson.

David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)

I have just one question, Mr. Shaw. The provisions of part 4 for placing the commissioner on a statutory basis are deemed to be cost-neutral and your budget in 2005-06 was £5.7 million. Given the discussion that you have had about the possible extension of your role and given comments, for example, from Mr. Garnier, about some of the aspects of potential extension and/or other costs, have you made any assessment of the cost implications of any of the proposed extensions in terms of budgetary and resource implications for you and your current budget and staff?

David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)

How modest—for the Committee’s benefit?

David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)

Could you give an indication to the Committee, from your assessment of recent history, as to how many potential cases that might be in the course of a year?

David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)

The Prison Reform Trust has mentioned a possible extension to cover safeguard cells and potentially, court cells. Have you heard the view on your modus operandi with regard to those issues?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I call David Burrowes, who, by the way, is a lawyer.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

How much consultation did you have on the details of the provisions? You mentioned that you were involved some years ago when the ideas came along. I want to ask you in particular about there not being a duty to consult you in terms of change of remit.

Maria Eagle (Labour, Liverpool, Garston)

You set out your views about greater independence. In your experience thus far, have you ever felt that your operational independence or what you do has been compromised by the current arrangements? Secondly, do you believe that were you to have greater technical independence, given that the arrangement is to be cost neutral, do you not think that that might divert some of your resources into overheads, away from actually doing the job?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Mr. Shaw, on behalf of the Committee, I thank you for your extremely good evidence in answer to the many questions put to you. Thank you, very much.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

We now ask Mr. Gareth Crossman, who is the policy director of Liberty, to take the hot seat.

Sadiq Khan (Labour, Tooting)

Before any questions are put, let me declare that I used to be the chairman of Liberty, and that, for my sins, I am also a lawyer.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I am not sure that I have to say to the Government Whip that it is a sin. I am more flexible and amenable than to think that having held that important office—

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Forgiving it.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

And forgetting, yes.

Again, I welcome Gareth Crossman, the policy director of Liberty, and thank him for coming to give evidence to the Committee. We are grateful to you for finding time to come and answer questions about the Bill. I call Mr. Harry Cohen, the Member for Leyton and Wanstead in outer London, to start the questioning.

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

I have a number of questions, Mr. Crossman, so perhaps we can treat them in a bit of a quick-fire way, because of time constraints. One aspect of the Bill gives the courts greater discretion over tariffs for indeterminate sentences, particularly for exceptionally serious sentences. What are your concerns about indeterminate sentences and the parts of the Bill that relate to them? Also, the Government have talked about taking into account an offender’s level of risk, although they have not spelled out in detail what the mechanism for that would be. Would that ameliorate some of your concerns?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I suggest that members of the Committee lean forward when asking their questions so that they make use of our sophisticated amplification system not only to help me in my dotage, but because it is important that those in the Public Gallery can hear clearly both the question and the answer. Because he is speaking close to his microphone, Mr. Crossman is certainly coming across loud and clear.

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

My second point concerns provisions in the Bill that cover automatic release, recall and re-release, giving the Secretary of State the significant power to bypass the Parole Board. How do you feel about that?

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Hopefully, I will catch an area that is covered by one of your significant objections. What do you feel about the extension of adult conditional cautioning and extending the scheme to 16 and 17-year-olds?

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Cautions are a criminal record.

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

What about the part that allows for the setting of custodial sentences in absentia—the person not being there, but still getting a sentence?

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Okay.

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Let me move on. I think that you will have a view of what I am about to say now. Part of the Bill has a cap on a two-year limitation on compensation payable to the victims of miscarriages of justice. How do you feel about that?

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Let us move on to the criminalisation of extreme pornography. You expressed concerns that the legislation could be drawn too wide, and indeed the Bill includes, as part of extreme pornography, the phrase that I referred to on Second Reading, “appears to” which seems very wide. Do you feel that that is a wide definition? What are your views?

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

That is interesting, but let me take you further on this. I raised the issue on Second Reading. You did not quite get to the point that it is not just the activity itself happening for real that is covered, but also when it “appears to”. That would presumably be ritualised or, as you say, acted out. I think that Ministers would probably argue that not having “appears to” would open up a huge loophole. How would you cover not just the act, but a bit beyond that—or would you not go beyond the act?

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

I have two more questions, one of which is very brief. I am not sure if this is an important question for you. In the enforcement of foreign trial proceedings by UK courts, the defendant can say that he did not get a fair trial abroad. However, as far as I can gather, under the Bill he will lose the right to do so. Does Liberty have any feelings about that?

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Let me come to my last question, which is a much broader one, but important. Do you feel that aspects of the Bill risk criminalising vulnerable people, such as children and people with mental ill-health, and if so, what are those aspects?

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Thank you.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Thank you.

David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)

I want to clarify, Sir Nicholas, the point that was made, because I think that it will be an important matter of debate. Our colleague from Liberty, Mr. Crossman, has just mentioned that, for example, scenes from the film “Casino Royale” could be outlawed under this legislation. I would like just to press him on what basis he makes that assertion, given that, for example, in clause 64 we define quite clearly in subsection (6) what an extreme image is. Also, clause 65 relates to matters concerning classified films and so on. I am interested to know on what basis he makes that assertion, because it will be a matter of public debate around these issues.

David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)

But again, clause 64(5) says:

“for the purpose of sexual arousal”.

From the Government’s perspective, we are trying to define what is, under clause 64(6), an extreme image, which is one that is made for the purpose solely of sexual arousal in terms of the film.

There may be aspects within film classification that examine those issues and the British Board of Film Classification will make a determination on that. However, the focus of the legislation is to ensure that we outlaw the downloading of extreme pornography that is undertaken for purposes of sexual arousal, which actually causes—or appears to cause—damage to a person’s life, or indeed, under clause 64(6), other aspects that I will not go into in the Committee today. I was interested in the definition, from Liberty’s perspective, of whether this is a real objection or, in a sense, a technical objection that needs later clarification, or whether the objection is specifically on a freedom of speech or freedom of information basis, in relation to the type of material that we intend to cover.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

But is it not more difficult than that? If one looks at clause 64(3), there is a huge degree of uncertainty and subjectivity. It provides:

“if it appears to have been produced solely or principally for the purpose of sexual arousal.”

Who is to decide whether it so “appears”? Is it the judge, the policeman, the viewer or the maker? Have you any idea what the Government are thinking about, or what they appear to be thinking about?

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

The provisions arise on the basis of the horrific Jane Longhurst killing, which I understand involved accessing websites containing rape scenes. In relation to the issues that you have raised about the definitions of “extreme image”, do you think that there is a need to have a definition of rape within the offence? There may be a question as to whether an image of rape is covered by the offence.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

Yes, I assume that you are referring to whether it would be covered within the definitions in clause 36?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

The depiction of rape may constitute an extreme image, but it must fit within the rest of the clause to become an offence. Until we understand what clause 64(3) means, we are not much further forward. I can think of any number of extreme images which are disgusting and unattractive to look at, but the prosecution will have to prove that an image appears to some unknown person to have been produced solely or principally for the purposes of sexual arousal.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Was there a question there, Mr. Garnier?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

A quizzing look.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Do you wish to follow this up any further before I pass the questioning to David Heath?

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Is the burden of proof shifted on to the individual, to defend themselves, if an allegation is brought against them under the provision?

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

I think that it is somewhere in one of my briefings.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

I do not want to engage in an undergraduate level of conversation when you are well beyond that. Looking at the defences in clause 66(2), it is a defence for the person charged with the offence under clause 64 to show that he

“had not seen the image concerned and did not know, nor had any cause to suspect, it to be an extreme pornographic image”.

To go back to clause 64(2) and (3), there is a direct problem there because we have the “appears to” under clause 64(3), yet there is a different requirement under clause 66(2), in that the defendant has to show that it did not appear to him that it was not—

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

I am not sure that I should have given way to the Minister in the first place, but it was a useful exchange, and I concur entirely with the last statement. Can I move on to two areas that were not within the original draft of the Bill? The first is the incitement to have a public case. I do not think that Liberty is going to be particularly helpful to any of the parties represented in the Committee, because your view is that there should be no further speech offences. Is that correct?

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

Thank you. I understand that advice. If we were, however, to ignore that advice and have a crime of that sort, I wonder if you have given any consideration to what sort of balance should be struck between the wish to outlaw a particular model of behaviour and the wish to protect free speech.

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

If I may, I will move on to the changes to the requirements for authorities of the multi-agency public protection arrangements to provide information on sexual offenders—those were not originally in the Bill and were not really in the frame until amendments were published recently. I do not know whether you have had a chance to look at the amendments and have a view on them.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

Going back to the proposed hatred offence, we have heard evidence that there is a gap in the law, particularly in relation to vile anti-gay rap music, which does not lead to an offence and prosecution. Could we have your view on whether that gap is plugged at all by the Serious Crime Bill and the new offence of intentionally encouraging or assisting crime and encouraging or assisting crime believing that an offence will be committed? Do you think that it is an offence that is properly dealt with in discrimination legislation or is there a need for new legislation?

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

What about the example of anti-gay rapping music, violent language and inciting offences?

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

That has been abolished. The new offence of intentionally encouraging or assisting crime comes in the Serious Crime Bill.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

The point is still valid.

Philip Hollobone (Conservative, Kettering)

In that respect, to turn it the other way round, if we were to consider a law against incitement to hatred, full stop, what do you think Liberty’s view would be of that?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

It may be that we are in the area of legal development where we are trying to recognise an identified group with concerns for their own safety and reconcile that with our desire not to pass useless laws or simply to repeat laws that already exist. But do you think that it would be possible to frame a law that made it illegal—a crime—intentionally to do or say things with the intention of arousing fear or concern such that that group of people would be subjected to physical or mental harm?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

I agree with you, but if one added the magic words, “on the basis of their presumed or actual sexual orientation”, would you agree that, although we may not be doing much good, we are not doing any harm?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Could I take you to the Hansard report of Tuesday’s sitting? In columns 74 and 75 you will see that, in response to a question that I asked out of total ignorance, because I had no idea what Mr. Summerskill had in mind, he recited a long list of nasty things that apparently rap artists sing. Mr. Summerskill broadly says that these are unpleasant, nasty things that cause gay people to live in fear and that these sorts of lyrics incite hatred against gay people. I am sure that you are familiar with these arguments, but how do you respond to his arguments in relation to those sorts of lyrics? You can imagine what they are, we do not need to have them read out all over again, it was wonderful enough as it was.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

I think that this may be a first, I am not sure.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

May I take you to column 83 of the same report? You will see that in Question 190 I quote an extract from the article that Shami Chakrabarti wrote for The House Magazine quite recently and I dare say that you are familiar with what she said there.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Which seems to be what Mr. Summerskill said in answer to me at the bottom of the page, he said very generously to me:

“You make a very good point. I cannot comment on what Shami Chakrabarti chooses to say. The reality is that in the human rights framework in which many people feel we now live, there are many sensible people who say that that, nevertheless, does not mean that everyone has human rights to do or say whatever they wish. Human rights should be applied proportionately and with responsibility and we do not accept that where there are robust protections for some communities, there should not be similar protections for others where there is clear evidence. I have cited some evidence and the Chairman asked me to desist precisely because I did not want to take you through the entire volume,”—

that is the column that we looked at a moment ago—

“But we have cited very clear examples of what we regard as transparent evidence that there is an issue.”——[Official Report, Criminal Justice and Immigration Public Bill Committee, 16 October 2007; c. 83, Q190.]

It seems that there is potential for agreement between the line that Liberty takes and the line that Stonewall takes. Assuming that you are prepared to accept that Stonewall thinks that there is a need for a law, the bridge seems to be the issue of proportionality and possibly intent.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

If we are to have a law at all, which is entirely up to the Government because they run the show, is it your view that such a law must include the concept of intention in the mind of the defendant before it is put into law?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

I guess it depends what you mean by recklessness. Recklessness often means a refusal to consider the consequences, which to the reasonable man might be obvious.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

A refusal or failure.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Philip Hollobone wanted to come in. This will have to be the final question, as we have about one and a half minutes to go.

Philip Hollobone (Conservative, Kettering)

Race relations legislation is the longest standing anti-hatred legislation we have to judge against. Given your earlier remarks about the number of prosecutions and the publicity that extremist groups have gained from such prosecutions, is it Liberty’s view that the offence of inciting people to racial hatred has improved race relations in this country, or do you think that they would have improved in any event?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

This is probably an appropriate point at which to end this part of our sitting this afternoon. On behalf of the Committee, I thank you, Gareth Crossman, for answering our questions so openly, and for being so honest when you felt that the question was beyond the brief that you have in coming before us on behalf of Liberty. Thank you very much, you have been very helpful.

I ask colleagues informally, are you still comfortable? Would you like a short break? Our other witnesses are here, but I think that they would understand it if we took a 10 minute break.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

We have before us representatives of the Local Government Association, Councillor Les Lawrence, chairman of the LGA’s children and young people board, and Councillor Ann Lucas.

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

Let me declare that I was at one time a vice-president of the LGA. I was never told that I was not any more, so I may still be one.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I think that I hold some honorary office with one of the local government associations, and they certainly have not told me that I have been kicked off, but I suspect that I am no longer in an honorary position.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I was going to ask our witnesses to identify themselves, but I do not think that that is necessary as Les Lawrence is clearly Les Lawrence and Ann Lucas is clearly Ann Lucas. On behalf of the Committee I thank you for coming before us as witnesses to help us with the Bill, not least from the point of view of those that serve in local government. David Burrowes, who, by the way, is a solicitor, is going to start.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

Thank you for reminding everyone, Sir Nicholas.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Sometimes it is helpful, because it could perhaps impact upon the style of the questions.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

First, a general question. What is your reaction to the Bill, particularly the youth justice provisions? What do you welcome and what do you not welcome?

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

In relation to the practical working of the youth rehabilitation order, the bottom line as far as you are concerned is that it is deliverable. Let us consider if from the perspective of the point of sentence. In the delivery of measures of rehabilitation for young people and to place them in appropriate places, funding is often the barrier. For the funding and the place to be matched up with the time that the sentence is ordered is often something that does not happen. It is not obtainable. What assurance can you give that the orders specified in the Bill are deliverable?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

If Councillor Lucas wants to come in on any of these questions will she please do so. For the information of the Committee as a whole, could you advise us where you are councillors for?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Thank you very much. I think that that is quite helpful because we appreciate that the part of the country that you come from may in some way influence some of the views that you express, although we understand that you are here to represent the Local Government Association.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

Dealing with the specific requirements within that order, there are local authority resident requirements, drug treatment requirements, education requirements and, separately, fostering requirements. All of those inevitably impact on resources. All of those orders are dependent on recommendations from the youth offending team and the social worker of a local authority, for example, to be deliverable. All of those things are very much within the province of the local authorities. The provision sounds good, but I question whether it is likely to happen on the ground.

It would be useful to hear, in terms of your members association, whether you feel that the capacity is presently there to deliver those types of requirement. To take one example, adolescent drug and alcohol services are bereft across the country with one residential drug rehabilitation centre in the whole country. Can these requirements be delivered?

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

Referral orders and, in a sense, the conditional cautions inevitably have an impact on the youth offending team. Do you have any comments about their role in those orders, which is within the remit of the local authority, and about their ability to deliver?

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

Let us return to the youth rehabilitation orders, because there is general realisation that, if they work as the Government intend, they will save money and be more effective, which is the most important part. I just worry that there is not yet an equivalent provision across the country of some of the elements that will be required for this measure. Local authorities vary enormously in what they can provide and what they do provide. I am a little surprised that the LGA is quite so bullish about the prospects of putting those building blocks in place in the very near future.

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

If a court, having looked at a particular young person’s circumstances, makes an order requiring intervention on the part of the local authority, do you take it as being a duty on the local authority in question to provide what the court specifies?

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

So you see it as a duty?

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

No, I am not. Not guilty.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

He is just an experienced Member of Parliament.

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

The intensive fostering requirements are quite an innovative part of the Bill and I know that they have been trialled, but is it really possible to recruit the right sort of person to provide those, given the difficulties we know there are in getting foster parents for children in children’s services at the moment. Very specific care will be required. Is it possible to recruit enough people of the right calibre and attitude, in order to provide that across a wide scale, in your experience?

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

But we have had to for a long time. I used to lead a local authority myself. I know the difficulties.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

To follow up on that point, 27 per cent. of people in custody have come from care, so clearly something is going wrong somewhere.

I draw your attention to an expression that is repeated throughout schedule 1—

“a court may not include”

a fostering requirement in a youth rehabilitation order unless the court has been notified by the Secretary of State that arrangements for implementing such a requirement are available in the area of the local authority, which is to place the offender with a local authority foster parent. There are equivalent provisions for other remedies that the Bill seeks. Do you see the Secretary of State contacting each local authority area and saying, “Got anything I could make use of?” Or do you think there will be some form of planning? Do you think he will say, “I’m not actually going to do this for at least five years because there is not a local government authority in the country that has the additional cash that is required to do this”? How do you think this is going to work?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

There is an awful lot about government that is Monty Pythonesque or even Kafkaesque. Just from time to time if a Government pass an Act of Parliament, does it not behove them to talk to somebody?

David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)

Like the poll tax, for example.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Ignore the Minister’s flippant remark and just concentrate on the question.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

I do not want to impugn your motives. I cannot believe that anybody, either in government or in local government, is looking to see this not work. Clearly, it is in the national interest for it to work, but I am puzzled about what you think will happen. Do you envisage sitting down in Birmingham and Coventry and reporting to the government office for the west Midlands or directly to the Ministry of Justice with a plan, so that the Secretary of State can then tell the courts that arrangements are sufficient in any given area for him to certify that these resources or systems are available? I am not sure where the initiative will come from. I know that you both represent very large authorities, but there will be smaller county authorities with smaller resources. I just do not have any idea about this. You are the experts, you tell me. What are the mechanics that will enable the Secretary of State to say, “It is there, so that court can do this”?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

So are you going to be able to do that from within your own budgets, or are you looking to the Government to provide you with additional resources?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

I have no doubt about that.

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

But you are not going to build this paradise out of 10 per cent. of the devolved Youth Justice Board budget, are you, so let us take your own two large authorities, Coventry and Birmingham. Ann Lucas, what would Coventry need to make the Bill work?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

What numbers? The Chancellor of the Exchequer is not going to write out a cheque for a blank figure. He is going to say that you can have x amount because you have told him that you need x amount. What do you think the x or the half-x is going to be?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

But you cannot put your hand on your heart and say that the best estimate is that a unitary authority is going to require additional resources of x million, and that a county authority will require resources of y million; or that on the basis of models that you have worked up, in the light of the Bill, you have put in bids to the Ministry of Justice for such-and-such; or that you need this amount of money, this number of people, and the following working group to do that. Has any detailed planning of that nature been done?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

No, and are you not going to have to do this on top of that?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Probably, across all the parties in the House of Commons there is no dispute that it is better not to send offenders of any age to prison if that can be avoided, because one could usually get a better result outside prison. Although the reoffending rate for some community sentences is quite high, even on the grounds of simple expense, it would be a good thing to do something better and cheaper outside of prison—there is no question that keeping youngsters in custody is expensive. Do you think that it would be sensible for the LGA to do some detailed accountancy work so that Parliament, let alone the Government, could understand what the LGA’s needs are so that it can do what the Government want it to do as a consequence of the Bill becoming an Act?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I say from the Chair, without bias or prejudice, that we will, no doubt, be in touch with all members of the Committee during the passage of this legislation. Three more members of the Committee have caught my eye: the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead, who will ask questions next, followed by the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Gedling, and the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Garston.

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

Thank you, Sir. Nicholas. When the Magistrates Association’s representatives were before us, they answered one question by saying that they would prefer what they called diversion and recall processes than youngsters coming to court at all. From my reading of the Bill, one cannot get a youth rehabilitation order without it going to court. Is that right and, if diversion is to be our priority, should not there be some sort of power for the local authority or teams in the area to do a sort of YRO or its equivalent? Could that be reflected in the legislation so that the order would not have to go to court?

Harry Cohen (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead)

So that is an administrative process that really must go hand in hand with the Bill and YROs.

You said earlier that, presumably in several cases, young people can be incarcerated for offences for which an adult would not be. That is a pretty shocking state of affairs. Could you spell out again what brings that about? What sort of mechanism would stop that happening and cut into the cycle? Should we, for example, look again at the legislation, or is there another administrative process? Perhaps a youngster could appeal and say, “An adult would not go to prison here.” What could be done?

Maria Eagle (Labour, Liverpool, Garston)

It is important for us centrally to get some sense of how local-authority led arrangements are going to work. Over the last few years there has been a greatly increased level of partnership working at local authorities and across agencies. From your experience at the Local Government Association, do you think that something like the local criminal justice boards or the children’s trust, or perhaps even the local safeguarding children boards are the best way of ensuring co-ordination? I heard what Ann Lucas said about pooling budgets, which always helps, but from your experience, what do you think will be the best local partnership arrangements for ensuring that those kinds of flexible, local arrangements work?

Maria Eagle (Labour, Liverpool, Garston)

So will you use the children’s trust arrangements to lead the work? Is that what you are saying?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I call Vernon Coaker, who is a Home Department Minister.

Vernon Coaker (Labour, Gedling)

Moving on to a couple of things that we have not mentioned so far, there are some important measures in the Bill and local authorities are crucial in trying to deal with the problems, working with the police and other agencies. I am thinking in particular of the new measures with respect to street workers, anti-social behaviour, the premises closure orders and so on. Could you share your thoughts on those measures and what use they will be in tackling some of the real issues on the street that your members of the Local Government Association will be involved with?

Vernon Coaker (Labour, Gedling)

We would welcome that because what we have tried to do, as Councillor Lawrence and Councillor Lucas know, is to build on the success of the crack house closures and to replicate those arrangements or regulations in the premises closure orders. If you have particular concerns, please keep talking to us about them. We want the proposals to work, particularly the new one that they apply to any type of tenure, which is especially important.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Do you want to say yes or no to that, councillors?

Vernon Coaker (Labour, Gedling)

As you say, the ongoing cost of failing to deal with a particular problem is enormous.

Could we go back to the issue of prostitutes? Do you see the rehabilitative order, the requirement for somebody to attend three meetings, as an important step forward?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

I must bring this session to an end. May I, on behalf of the Committee, thank our two witnesses from the Local Government Association very much indeed for their interesting and informed evidence?

I am particularly interested because at one time—Councillor Lawrence will not be aware of this—I was a member of Warwickshire county council and I sat on the governing board, or whatever it was called, of what was then the Tennal approved school for boys in Harborne, in Birmingham. I think that there was some controversy there long after my time. I also served on the joint education committee of what was then the Lanchester polytechnic in Coventry, as a member of the education committee for Warwickshire county council. So I have some affinity with both Coventry and Birmingham.

We are very grateful to you both. Your evidence was extremely helpful and we are very grateful to you.

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Could we now please ask the representatives from the Evangelical Alliance, Dr. Louise Brown and Mr. Don Horrocks, to come forward and take the hot seats?

Once again, as I said to the previous witnesses, I do not think that I have to ask you to identify yourselves, because we have the information that Mr. Don Horrocks is the head of public affairs of the Evangelical Alliance and Dr. Louise Brown is the policy research consultant for the alliance. We have quite a number of people who wish to question you, but I will start by calling Mr. Philip Hollobone.

Philip Hollobone (Conservative, Kettering)

Do you agree that inciting someone to hatred of gay people is a bad thing?

Philip Hollobone (Conservative, Kettering)

But would you support a new law that would make it a criminal offence to incite homophobic hatred?

Philip Hollobone (Conservative, Kettering)

How do you think that such a law would impact on your beliefs and practices?

Nicholas Winterton (Conservative, Macclesfield)

Does Dr. Louise Brown want to come in on any of these questions? Do not hesitate to do so, Dr. Brown, if you wish to do so.

Philip Hollobone (Conservative, Kettering)

Stonewall and others who are in favour of this legislation have given us some very difficult evidence about lyrics, particularly in rap music, which has been very homophobic and, in their view, incites people to hate gay people. They would like to see legislation brought in to make that an offence. You may have had an opportunity to see some of the evidence that they gave us. Do you think that anything should be done about such violent and homophobic lyrics?

Philip Hollobone (Conservative, Kettering)

We were given several specific examples by Mr. Summerskill in a previous session, and I want to highlight one that involved a prayer rally outside Parliament this January, where a gentleman was shouting

“Don’t allow homosexuals to pervert these children”.——[Official Report, Criminal Justice and Immigration Public Bill Committee, 16 October 2007; c. 77, Q172.]

Mr. Summerskill’s view was that that was almost certainly incitement to homophobic hatred. What is your response to that accusation?

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

You made some references to the religious hatred legislation, on which many of us worked hard. I would be interested to hear your views about the outcome of that legislation after we had done our work in the Commons, and their lordships had done their work in the Lords. Do you feel that the outcome was satisfactory from your point of view?

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

No, I appreciate that.

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

That is interesting. I was going to come on to that point. One thing that many of us feared was not the prosecutions that would take place but exactly what you describe: the chill effect. What assessment have you made of the extent to which that has happened since the provisions of the 2006 Act in its final form were enacted?

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

Does your organisation extend to Northern Ireland?

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

What has been the experience of the comparable legislation there?

David Hanson (Labour, Delyn)

No. I took the legislation through at the end of 2006 as a Northern Ireland Minister.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

Was not the hatred legislation brought in previously? The harassment provisions came in in the order, but the hatred provisions came in earlier.

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

Whichever. We have existing law in Northern Ireland, and I am just trying to find out what the consequences of it have been.

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

May I return you to this core point? In Northern Ireland, the homophobic hate provisions are based on the race hatred legislation. I am not an expert on Northern Ireland, but I do not think that those provisions have in any way stopped fairly vigorous profession of faith among the evangelical community. I am making a genuine attempt to discover the extent to which the chilling effect, which I accept is a perfectly proper and real fear among many people, has had an effect in that Province. I am struggling to find out why the situation should be so very different in Northern Ireland compared to Scotland, England or Wales.

David Heath (Liberal Democrat, Somerton and Frome)

That is a very valid question and one that has come to several people’s minds.

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

On consultation, have you been formally consulted by the Government on a draft provision for this Bill?

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

What was the timing and the level of consultation in relation to the Racial and Religious Hatred Bill?

David Burrowes (Conservative, Enfield, Southgate)

Dealing with the present situation, what would you say the present effect of legislation is on Christians practising and Christians talking about their views on homosexuality?

Edward Garnier (Conservative, Harborough)

Clearly Mr. Summerskill is concerned that you will not only hate the sin but will hate the sinner. I will not put words into his mouth, nor do I represent him in any way, but I want to try to get from you is an understanding about what they appear to fear, which is that groups such as those that you represent, irrespective of your motives and your genuine Christian beliefs, could lead to people like him and individuals and groups living in fear of the consequences of hatred and disapproval.

The rest of the debate is in Hansard.