Orders of the Day — Gambling Bill

House of Commons, 1 November 2004.

Michael Martin (Speaker, Glasgow Springburn)

I should inform the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.

I know that passions are running high about this Bill, both in the House and outside. But I hope that our debate can be based on the facts, on concern for the public interest, and nothing else. The Bill addresses a subject that has not been properly scrutinised for more than 40 years, because of the policy of previous Administrations, which, where gambling was concerned, was to sidestep the big issues and be content to tinker. That is a luxury that we can no longer afford. We need to address the challenges that are caused by new technology, by the internet and by the steady growth in consumer demand. We need to keep gambling crime-free by giving regulators new powers and new duties. We need to make sure that our desire to give adults freedom to gamble if they wish is not at the cost of children or the vulnerable.

Kate Hoey (Labour, Vauxhall)

It might be helpful if the Secretary of State were to tell us clearly whether this Bill, as it is now, was in this Government's manifesto.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Certainly, we undertook in the Queen's Speech to publish a draft gambling Bill.

The proposals contained in the Bill have been developed over a five-year period—I cannot recall whether the proposals were in the manifesto, because work on developing the proposals started in the previous Parliament, when this was the responsibility of the Home Secretary—beginning with Sir Alan Budd's review, and followed by a White Paper, a draft Bill considered by a Committee of both Houses, and the Bill today.

Until recently, there was cross-party consensus for reform led by the work of the Scrutiny Committee on the draft Bill, which was ably chaired by the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway), to whom I would like to pay tribute. As is often the case, consensus in dealing with what is a difficult contemporary social issue was replaced by the opportunism of a passing bandwagon. If the House gives the Bill a Second Reading, every proposal will be considered on its merits in Committee. I give the House my assurance that I will give every consideration to suggestions from right hon. and hon. Members that are genuinely intended to improve the Bill.

John Gummer (Conservative, Suffolk Coastal)

The right hon. Lady mentioned the vulnerable earlier. Will she explain why she characterised Labour Back Benchers, Opposition Members such as me, the hierarchy of the Catholic Church and the Salvation Army as snobbish, because we stood up for the vulnerable? How does she say that when that would mean that most of the historic Labour figures were snobbish because they too stood up for the vulnerable?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Had that been what I said, it would have been deeply offensive, and I would have apologised for it. I respect entirely the fact that people, on ethical, religious and other grounds, are opposed to gambling. I did not describe people as snobs—I referred to a whiff of snobbery pervading this debate, which is quite different from the allegation that the right hon. Gentleman is making.

Kevin Hughes (Labour, Doncaster North)

My right hon. Friend has found out over this weekend that there is never a shortage of do-gooders telling people how to spend their leisure time. No doubt she will hear more of that in the House today. Does she agree with me that the British people are intelligent and sophisticated enough to make their own choices about what they do with their cash and leisure time? I hope that the Bill gets its Second Reading today.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I agree with my hon. Friend. Neither this debate nor the British people are served by the kind of patronising attitude that doubts people's ability to make choices about how to spend their marginal income or leisure time.

Bob Russell (Liberal Democrat, Colchester)

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

No, I want to make some progress; I will then take further interventions.

Scrutiny has improved the Bill to date, and I want to make it absolutely clear that the Government will listen to the views of right hon. and hon. Members, particularly when they offer constructive proposals that contribute to, or strengthen, the Bill's three underlying objectives: to protect children and the vulnerable, to ensure that gambling is conducted in a fair and open way, and to keep gambling in this country crime-free.

Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)

rose—

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

The key principle will be that of social responsibility—a condition that is the test of each element of the Bill.

David Clelland (Labour, Tyne Bridge)

Is the Secretary of State aware that these days, children have access to the internet and, through computer games, to gratuitous violence in the most graphic sense, in the privacy of their own rooms? Does she really think that they will be protected by banning the penny arcade?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

We are not banning the penny arcade in this Bill and yes, we do have to address the risks that children face, but not by taking disproportionate action in respect of matters for which there is no evidence of harm.

Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I will give way on that point.

Nick Gibb (Conservative, Bognor Regis and Littlehampton)

I am grateful to the right hon. Lady. Why does the Bill impose a maximum stake on family amusements such those that enable children to win a teddy bear by picking it up with a crane? In Bognor Regis, the stake for such machines is 30p a go; if a 10p maximum is imposed, such amusements will be rendered unviable. Will she look again at this provision, so that the Bill does not have the unintended consequence of bankrupting family amusement arcades in seaside towns, only for them to be replaced by hard gambling outlets?

Michael Martin (Speaker, Glasgow Springburn)

Order. The hon. Gentleman must not make a speech.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I ask the hon. Gentleman to contain the impatience that he expressed solely on behalf of Bognor Regis; he will hear reassuring words from me later.

I recognise that gambling is a controversial, difficult and complex matter. That was true when betting shops were legalised, it was true when the Conservatives introduced the national lottery and the associated multi-million pound jackpots 10 years ago, and it is certainly true now. There are some people in this country—including, indeed, Members in all parts of the House, as I have said—who have a sincere and profoundly held objection to gambling. They would rather that gambling did not take place at all, and they certainly do not think that the state should sanction it. They may take this view for ethical, philosophical or religious reasons, or even because of family or personal experience, and I completely understand and respect it.

Julie Kirkbride (Conservative, Bromsgrove)

rose—

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

There are other people who do not have a fundamental objection to gambling, but who choose not to gamble themselves and are happy for others to have the freedom to do so, provided that certain safeguards are in place to ensure that children and vulnerable adults are properly protected. That happens to be the view that I share.

There is a further group of people who do gamble. For them, it is just part of life—a source of enjoyment and a freedom that they value. Yes, they want safeguards to be in place, but they regard gambling as an activity in respect of which the restrictions should be kept to a minimum.

Bob Russell (Liberal Democrat, Colchester)

rose—

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Judged by their behaviour, this group is perhaps the largest of the three. Each year, some 4 million people visit the country's 700 bingo clubs. Each month, an estimated 4 million Britons log on to a gambling website. Each week, more than 1 million people bet on horse races. Last year, visitors to casinos staked £4 billion. If the national lottery is included, 70 per cent. of the population gamble regularly.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

So views on gambling vary enormously, and the purpose of this Second Reading debate is to allow those views to be heard.

The House should recognise, however, that gambling is at the boundary between personal freedom and state intervention. On one side of the boundary is the reasonable expectation of adults who, within the law, exercise their right to live their lives as they choose. On the other is the role of the state: to recognise human frailty, and in particular to respect its duty to protect children and the vulnerable. As a Government and a society, we have three options in that respect: prohibition, a free-for-all or regulation. We have no doubt about choosing the regulatory route. The question for the House is how best to apply the regulatory framework for the benefit of society as a whole.

Bob Russell (Liberal Democrat, Colchester)

Can I ask the right hon. Lady how many residents of Dulwich and West Norwood have asked her to provide that part of London with a super-casino?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

As of yet, the provisions governing super-casinos are not on the statute book. The hon. Gentleman may have encountered all sorts of wild speculation about planning permissions being granted or applied for, but not a single planning permission for a new casino under the new regime has yet been granted.

Donald Anderson (Labour, Swansea East)

I do not know whether I fall into the category of an opportunist or a snob, but I would certainly accept do-gooder as the definition of someone who tries to do good in this matter. Do-gooders are certainly better than do-badders. Does my right hon. Friend not see the world of difference between ordinary folks who want to go to bingo halls and the proliferation of mega-casinos, which must be the intended effect of what she is proposing? Why cannot she have a few pilots in order to test her own views against what will happen in the real world?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

My right hon. Friend falls into the particular category of very talented and important Members of the House.

Ken Purchase (Labour/Co-operative, Wolverhampton North East)

Better than being a do-badder.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

My right hon. Friend did not expect a tribute. If proliferation were to be the consequence of these proposals, my right hon. Friend would have reason for concern, but if he will allow me to develop my argument, I hope to persuade him that his prediction will not, in fact, be realised. Let me just set out briefly how we reached this Bill—

Geraldine Smith (Labour, Morecambe and Lunesdale)

rose—

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I shall give way now, but then I want to make some progress.

Geraldine Smith (Labour, Morecambe and Lunesdale)

On children, clause 56 specifically states:

"The Secretary of State may by order create an offence of inviting, causing or permitting a child or young person below a specified age to use a Category D gaming machine."

Are the Government seriously suggesting that a parent could be prosecuted for allowing her child to go into a seaside amusement arcade and roll a 10p piece down a shoot to win a cuddly toy? If so, it is the nanny state gone mad.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

If that were the case, my hon. Friend would be absolutely right that it would be an example of over-zealous and interventionist government. I shall explain at the appropriate point later in my remarks exactly why that provision sits in the Bill.

John Bercow (Conservative, Buckingham)

rose—

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I am not giving way yet.

Let me briefly recap how the Bill came about. New regulation is, by common consent, undoubtedly necessary. Every year and every week sees new developments in the gambling market, often in poorly regulated environments. The danger of the status quo lies not in more of the same, but in the current growth of poorly regulated gambling with little or no protection for those who play. Those who argue against the Bill cannot, if they are concerned about protection, defend the status quo.

We have recently seen roulette machines installed in betting offices against the wishes of the Gaming Board and similar machines proliferating in bingo halls and amusement centres. Since 1968 there have been many deregulatory measures affecting gambling. They have been brought forward on a piecemeal basis. That has been the problem. They included measures to allow the advertising of bingo, to allow betting offices to have clear windows and to increase the number of jackpot machines in casinos. Most came under the deregulation orders following the Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994. We can all remember who was in power at that time.

The Lords deregulation Committee pointed out how unsatisfactory a piecemeal approach can be and initiated the process that led to the establishment of the gambling review body in the late 1990s, under the chairmanship of Sir Alan Budd. So the Bill is not a radical departure. It is a continuation of adapting to change since we last legislated for gambling 36 years ago, but this time, the Bill does so comprehensively rather than in fragments.

Part 1 of the Bill provides definitions, including the new licensing objectives that I have set out. Part 2 establishes the gambling commission, which will control commercial gambling to ensure that it is fair and safe. Parts 3 and 4 consolidate and modernise gambling offences. Part 4 concentrates on the new offences to protect children, which I know are of concern to the House. Parts 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 set out the new licensing system to be administered by the gambling commission and local licensing authorities. The commission will take over the Gaming Board's responsibilities for casinos, bingo, gaming machines and the lottery.

Joan Humble (Labour, Blackpool North and Fleetwood)

Will the Secretary of State explain how the rules on licensing can be linked to planning arrangements, because one of the major fears of many Members, even those like me who support the introduction of the Bill and regional casinos, is that of proliferation? How will planning arrangements be linked to the excellent provisions on licensing in the Bill?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I promise my hon. Friend, who I know has taken a great interest in this matter, that I will deal with it in some detail. I know that it is of such concern to Members to understand how the triple lock will operate in order to prevent the proliferation of new casinos.

The gambling commission will regulate through conditions on operating and personal licences, and for the first time, anybody who is licensed to run gambling premises will be obliged to pursue social responsibility as a condition of their operating licence. If operators breach the terms and conditions, they will face very tough sanctions. Unlike the Gaming Board, the new gambling commission will have the power to impose unlimited financial penalties on operators who breach their conditions. Local authorities will take on the licensing of premises under the guidance of the gambling commission. In Scotland, licensing boards will license premises.

Part 10 establishes a new regime for gaming machines that accommodates the developments in technology that have occurred since 1968. Part 11 provides for a new regime for charity lotteries. Parts 12, 13 and 14 deal with gambling that is small scale, incidental to other entertainment, or non-commercial. Part 15 provides new powers for effective inspection. Part 16 addresses advertising, and part 17 gambling debts. Lastly, part 18 deals with Bill-wide provisions.

Peter Viggers (Conservative, Gosport)

The right hon. Lady's Department said that the Bill would be revenue-neutral, implying a very substantial reduction in gambling duty. Although that statement was later slapped down, was the reduction in gambling duty discussed when the Labour party fundraiser Lord Levy met representatives of the international gambling industry?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

No, it was not. Secondly, the reference to revenue-neutrality was an error. It was a term in common use that was misunderstood. [Interruption.] Let me explain. The point being made was that revenue is not a motivator for this legislation. It is my job as Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport to establish the regulatory framework; it is the Treasury's responsibility to establish the taxation regime. [Hon. Members: "Ah!"] Precisely. The taxation regime will follow once the regulatory regime is in place. I do not think that anything has changed very much on that front in the past seven and a half years.

To reduce the risk of harm, the Bill provides new powers to regulate the way in which gambling is offered. Our controls are currently limited to specifying what can be offered and where that can happen. The Bill will give us powers to change the way in which gambling is offered to avoid harm.

We have a low level of problem gambling in Britain. Approximately 0.6 to 0.8 per cent. of adults report the types of behaviour that are associated with problem gambling. However, for them, gambling can be a dangerous and destructive addiction. It can ruin the lives and livelihoods not only of gamblers but of their families. As with other forms of addiction to legal activities, we have to balance carefully the citizen's right to act freely with the state's duty to minimise harm and warn of the risks.

Andrew Miller (Labour, Ellesmere Port and Neston)

The problem of dealing with internet gambling and those who have become addicted through it is an example of risk that falls outside much of the scope of the Bill. What discussions has my right hon. Friend held with credit card and escrow companies to try to tackle that difficult subject?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

As we make online gambling legal for the first time in this country, my hon. Friend will welcome provisions that allow offshore sites to return to this country to operate in a proper regulatory framework that protects both the interests of individual players and ensures that children cannot play on the internet. It also takes precautions in relation to the credit risk about which my hon. Friend expressed concern.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I want to make progress.

There is a parallel between alcohol and gambling. Both are legal pursuits, both carry an associated risk of addiction and the state has chosen not to proscribe but to shape supply. The Bill gives Ministers and the commission the power to respond to new risks, increase controls and avoid harm. We will get evidence, through a substantially increased programme of genuinely new research, which has already started. A national gambling audit will take place every three years. The first will happen before the Bill takes effect.

Brian Mawhinney (Conservative, North West Cambridgeshire)

I have been reflecting on the right hon. Lady's reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers). Is she telling hon. Members that she wants the Bill on the statute book before any information is released about inducements that the Government may have offered to mega-casino owners?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

No inducements have been offered to mega-casinos. We will get the measure on the statute book because millions of people are at risk unless that happens.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I shall not give way. [Interruption].

Michael Martin (Speaker, Glasgow Springburn)

Order. The Secretary of State is not giving way.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Just as there will be a baseline against which we can judge the impact of all our reforms, there will be not one but two further gambling studies before we even consider any calls for further relaxation of the new regime. We shall thus have a proper baseline, which tells us how many people gamble, and against which we can monitor closely, through the gambling commission, the impact of any of the changes. If evidence of harm emerges through the research and monitoring that is undertaken, we will act swiftly to toughen the controls.

We have powers throughout the Bill to withdraw or move back from the liberalisation if there is evidence of harm.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

Will the Secretary of State give way?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

No, I must make progress.

Much of the comment on the Bill claimed that the country wanted no more gambling and no more casino games. Although I respect the views of those who wish that demand did not exist, I ask hon. Members to examine the evidence. Many hon. Members know about the growing popularity of roulette machines in betting offices. From none two or three years ago, there are now more than 20,000, and the number continues to rise. As I have said before, the machines are on probation. Under the Bill, they will be under effective legislative control for the first time.

I suspect that all Members will have seen the countless advertisements for internet casinos and for poker rooms. Companies that conduct research into the internet estimate that some 16 per cent. of Britons visit an internet gambling site every month. Three years ago, 250,000 British people travelled to Las Vegas; next year, that is likely to double to 500,000.

What is more, many of the problems that we have faced over the past few years have arisen because gambling companies have been trying to install casino games on non-casino premises such as betting offices, bingo halls and amusement arcades. Anyone passing a betting office in the high street today is likely to see a huge poster inviting them to bet roulette. They are just as likely to see that as to see a picture of a horse. The industry is doing all that it can to get roulette into the high street, because wherever it succeeds in doing so roulette proves very popular.

Some, I accept, would react to that evidence by suggesting that we prohibit such choices; but if we have learnt anything at all about the history of regulating gambling, it is that if the law does not allow people to gamble safely, they will find ways of gambling at higher risk. We do not want to drive gambling underground or offshore. Expenditure on gambling is rising by about 3.5 per cent. each year, and it is predicted that that rate of increase will continue, with or without the Bill. People will go on choosing casino games whether we like it or not; the question for us is, how do we direct that demand?

Betty Williams (Labour, Conwy)

There is a saying in Wales: three attempts and she might hear.

There is currently a requirement for an unstimulated demand test to be met before new casinos can be approved. I understand that the Bill would scrap that. Does my right hon. Friend agree that such action would make it more difficult for local planning authorities to reject huge casino applications?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

That was a timely intervention, as I am about to deal with the role of casinos in the Bill—in the context of a clear undertaking that there will be no new casinos if local people do not want them. I want to explain what is in the Bill, how we intend to achieve our aims, and how rigorous the safeguards are.

The Bill will certainly remove some of the more outdated restrictions on casinos. It will abolish the permitted areas that limit casinos to 53 former county boroughs, including those that had populations of 125,000 or more between December 1970 and October 1973. That explains why, believe it or not, it is possible to have a casino in Mayfair but not in Greenwich. The Bill will also abolish the membership rules requiring a 24-hour wait between joining a casino and playing games.

We consider it reasonable for British consumers to be allowed access to casino games on properly regulated casino premises. We would rather people gambled on machines in the carefully controlled environment of a casino than on dodgy internet sites at home. Our strategy, however, is intended to avoid the mistakes made by other countries such as Australia, which allowed a widespread proliferation of high-price machine gambling in the high streets. What we propose for the casino industry in Great Britain is a restrained modernisation that protects the public from problem gambling.

Clive Efford (Labour, Eltham)

My right hon. Friend mentioned my borough, Greenwich. Several planning authorities in the Thames gateway area may be attracted to the idea of having a casino; what is the best way of deciding which should have planning permission? [Laughter.] I think we should treat the issue a bit more seriously.

How do we decide whether regional planning priorities should determine where a casino goes, or whether it should be a matter for the local planning authority? Should there not be a national criterion enabling us to designate an area suitable? The local authority would have to demonstrate that it had consulted local people and referred to both its own unitary development plan and the regional development plan, and had received support, before it could proceed to the next phase and develop a casino?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

My hon. Friend makes a full and important intervention, but if he will bear with me I will answer his very good points in due course.

Sir Alan Budd, in his review, recommended a minimum customer area for new casinos of approximately 200 sq m to discourage too many small casinos. However, the Government have decided that the minimum size should be considerably larger—over three times larger—at 750 sq m. The net effect will be fewer new casinos than Sir Alan proposed, and only the largest casinos, with a minimum area of 5,000 sq m, will be entitled to house the new style machines. We will cap machine numbers in all casinos, and we will keep the present £2,000 prize limit for the two smaller categories of casino.

A number of casino operators have announced proposals for new leisure developments in different parts of the country, although the figures given in some newspapers for new regional casinos are wildly off the mark. Of course, these are all just proposals; almost none of them has gambling licences or planning permission. If the developments go ahead on the scale envisaged, they will no doubt bring significant economic and employment benefits to the areas in which they are located. For instance, the company that proposes a £125 million development on disused land in a regeneration area will, if it is approved, provide a host of new leisure facilities, of which a casino would be a relatively small component. Overall, the development would provide hundreds of construction jobs, employ over 1,000 staff and provide significant support to Leeds United football club.

Let me set out clearly for the House the very tight framework within which such new casinos will be allowed. I have spoken before about the triple lock that applies, and I want to explain each step in turn. I am very aware that there are calls from some quarters for a national cap on the number of the new regional casinos. The Joint Committee looked carefully at the issue and did not recommend a cap. I share the objective that regional casinos should be relatively few in number, but I do think that a cap may be a blunt instrument. My preferred alternative is for tough planning and licensing tests that may well be difficult for a number of proposals to pass, but do allow some flexibility for local communities. I am dirigiste only about the ends, not the means, and all sides agree that this cannot be left purely to the market, so let me set out how the regime would work.

The first lock is the operating licensing system. Anybody who wishes to operate a casino in the UK must apply to the gambling commission for an operating licence. Applicants will be rigorously tested to ensure that they measure up to the three statutory objectives in the Bill: to protect children and vulnerable adults, to keep gambling crime free and to ensure fair play for consumers. The gambling commissions's job of assessing licence applications will not be a question of ticking a box. Each and every application will have to go through careful and rigorous consideration.

The second lock is the premises licensing system, for which local authorities will be responsible. The Bill requires every local authority to have a gambling licensing policy that covers all gambling and betting premises, including casinos, and it empowers local authorities to consult the public on their licensing policy, including the casino element of it.

I understand the concerns that right hon. and hon. Members have expressed about local authorities finding the development benefits too tempting, so I will listen closely to the argument that the power to consult on the licensing policy should be replaced with a duty. That duty is already implicit in the planning procedures, but I am happy to consider making it more explicit. At this point, or at any time it chooses, a local authority may resolve, under clause 157, not to allow any new casinos in its area. It has a wide discretion to exercise that power, and in deciding whether to exercise it, it may have regard to "any principle or matter", and the power lasts for three years and is renewable. The Joint Committee did not recommend the power of resolution. I decided to add it to the Bill because I wanted local authorities that do not want new casinos to be able to say so clearly and categorically, and to be protected from any of the risks that might follow.

The Bill allows any local authority to impose a blanket ban on new casino development, and I am sure that the House will support that, but even if an authority does not decide to apply such a ban it still has strong powers to reject a specific application for a casino development, whether large, small, or regional. Local authorities can and must test any application for a premises licence against the three licensing criteria in the Bill and can refuse any application that does not meet them.

John Bercow (Conservative, Buckingham)

I understand the triple lock, and I see what the right hon. Lady means by her preferred alternative, but surely there is something to be said for a backstop position. Given that she envisages only between 20 and 40 super-casinos but that her critics predict a very much larger number, I put it to her that introducing a limit in the Bill on the total number, as well as being right in itself, would help to facilitate the smooth passage of this important Bill, which in other respects she is entirely right to champion.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I know that there will be a lot of discussion about this aspect of the proposals both here and, if the Bill secures a Second Reading, in Committee. The practical obstacle created by a cap is that the whole thrust of the regulatory and planning system is to leave decisions about new casinos to local people, but if an arbitrary limit is imposed, what do we say to those local authorities—there may be a significant number—that present applications for new casinos just as the cap is about to be reached, and—[Interruption.]

Michael Martin (Speaker, Glasgow Springburn)

Order. The House must come to order and allow the right hon. Lady to speak.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am trying to explain what I believe is one of the issues of contention at the heart of the Bill, and it is important that, if hon. Members raise concerns about it, they should listen to the answer. This is not the end of the story, and I expect further discussion in Committee.

Frank Field (Labour, Birkenhead)

Will my right hon. Friend ensure that there is no appeal against the veto on super-casinos that she is giving to local authorities; otherwise, authorities will be overruled, will they not, by the Secretary of State?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

As the provisions stand, there is no appeal against the provisions in clause 157, but my right hon. Friend may wish to return to this point at another time.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I intend to make some progress by returning to the licensing and planning regime.

If a casino application was considered to be too close to, for instance, a residential area or a school, it could be refused on the social responsibility criteria in clause 1. That is the case even before the planning regime and the third lock become effective.

The planning system is crucial. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister and his Department for working so closely with me and my Department on the interaction of licensing and planning policy. He and I are happy to give the House a firm undertaking that the licensing and planning regimes will be fully aligned to ensure that the Bill is implemented in a cautious and responsible way that respects the wishes of local authorities and local communities. The Deputy Prime Minister and I will make sure that detailed advice is available about the transition period.

John Greenway (Conservative, Ryedale)

What the Secretary of State is saying is helpful to the House, but what is the Government's current thinking on the Joint Committee's recommendation that there should be a separate planning use class for regional casinos?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

If the hon. Gentleman will bear with me, I shall have more to say about that.

As Secretary of State, I have the power to commence the Bill in such a way that the gambling commission is got up and running and there is reasonable time to put in place appropriate local and regional planning frameworks before premises licence applications are made, and that is what I shall do. For regional casinos, we will make sure, under the provisions of the new planning regime, that regional spatial strategies are updated to take account of the Bill. Regional authorities will be able to analyse the best locations for regional casinos from the point of view of economic growth, tourism promotion and regional sustainability, as well as existing regional development plans.

Regional authorities will identify broad locations for regional casinos, but the local authority—the licensing authority—will have the final say, assuming that it has not already exercised its right to ban all new casinos in its area under clause 157. We will also make sure, for small and large casinos, that local development frameworks are updated to take account of the Bill, again assuming that a local authority has not imposed a blanket ban. All the usual safeguards and protections in planning law will be available to local authorities and local communities. Local communities will be consulted about any planning application for a new casino. They will make their views known, and there will be a public debate.

Some Members and, as the hon. Member for Ryedale said, the Joint Committee, have expressed concern that some casinos may bypass the planning system because of the absence of a separate use class for casinos in planning law. The current law theoretically allows any leisure facility, such as a swimming pool or cinema, to be converted into a casino without triggering planning controls, although, obviously, a premises licence—therefore, the planning regime—would be invoked. After the Joint Committee's second report, my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister undertook to review the possibility of a new use class for casinos and invited comments by the end of October. I am delighted to announce today that he and I have agreed in principle to require change of use to a casino to be subject to planning control. Subject to further detailed consideration of the outcome of the review and the usual consultation, we are minded to amend the use class order.

Mark Lazarowicz (Labour/Co-operative, Edinburgh North and Leith)

Given that planning in Scotland is, of course, devolved to the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Executive, has my right hon. Friend had discussions with Scottish Ministers to ensure that similar planning protection is given to local authorities and communities there, and will she make sure that the Bill does not come into effect in Scotland until such changes are made in the relevant Scottish legislation?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I assure my hon. Friend that there have been ongoing discussions with Scottish Ministers as the policy has developed, and that those discussions will continue.

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

I suspect that there will be pleasure in all parts of the House at the news that the Secretary of State just announced. Will she confirm that what she is announcing is a separate use category for all casinos, not just for the super-casinos?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Yes, I can confirm that.

Subject to further consultation, the process will proceed. I assure the House that the establishment of a separate use class is evidence that the Government do not want casinos to be allowed in by the back door. We aim to ensure that new casinos are taken forward through the development of the plan-making process.

That is the triple lock that we are putting in place for casinos. The system is robust and will, I hope, reassure the House and concerned communities throughout the UK that there will be no proliferation of casinos, whether small, large or regional. The system will allow local communities to ban all casinos or to reject specific casino plans that do not measure up to the social responsibility criteria in clause 1 or the requirements of planning law.

The nature of the new system is precisely why most economic and industry analysts expect the British market to be able to sustain only between 20 and 40 regional casinos. They have reached that conclusion because the policy that we have designed is so stringent and because they do not think that demand will be any higher. If demand is lower than analysts expected, there will be even fewer than 20 to 40 regional casinos.

Rob Marris (Labour, Wolverhampton South West)

My right hon. Friend has been generous in giving way. She mentioned that research indicates that the market will bear only up to 40 super-casinos. In that case, will she explain why having a cap in the Bill is undesirable? I would suggest that having one would be very desirable.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Because there is a difference between a cap set by Government and the range of the likely levels of development set by industry forecasts based on the regulatory framework that the Government are establishing and the three elements of that regulatory system that I have set out.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I am aware that many hon. Members wish to speak in the debate, so, although I have taken many interventions, I now intend to make progress.

There will be three opportunities for consultation, two of which, on the licensing policy and on planning permission, will be obligatory. There will also be the opportunity to consult on the possible use of the resolution.

I hope that hon. Members on both sides of the House will regard the framework as well considered and robust. I assure hon. Members that on every aspect of the Bill the Government are listening and are open to proposals that will improve the protections in it. If hon. Members have suggestions about how the triple lock can be strengthened, proposals will be carefully examined at later stages.

Gordon Prentice (Labour, Pendle)

rose—

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

Perhaps my hon. Friend did not hear that I was referring to the later stages of considering ways to strengthen the Bill.

Gordon Prentice (Labour, Pendle)

The Government have told the Joint Committee:

"These unlimited prize machines are new to the UK, and there is no reliable evidence as to the impact of these machines."

Surely that is a classic case for having some pilot casinos, so that we can test the impact of such fantastically large pay-outs.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

That is precisely why we rejected the recommendations of the Budd review, which would have introduced high-value, high-prize machines everywhere. That is also why we rejected the recommendation of the Joint Committee, which would have meant introducing such machines in all casinos, and why we are limiting them to regional casinos. I should also make clear, for my hon. Friend's information, that the way in which such machines operate and are manufactured—their design—will be subject to the oversight and scrutiny of the gambling commission. They may come from any part of the world, but they will have to conform to the British regulatory system. We will also monitor very closely any evidence that the availability of these machines is leading to an increase in problem gambling, in which case we will take action through the gambling commission to address the matter.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I shall not take any more interventions.

I should like to move on quickly to protections for children; I know that the House attaches great importance to keeping children away from harmful gambling. Children should never get involved with gambling that will harm them.

Lynne Jones (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Michael Martin (Speaker, Glasgow Springburn)

Order. The Secretary of State has stated that she will not be giving way.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

That is in respect of the many hon. Members who wish to speak in the debate.

There is no more important area to keep children away from harm than the internet. The evidence published over the summer that some British companies were failing in this area is profoundly disturbing. Any internet operator seeking a licence from the gambling commission will need to demonstrate precisely how it intends to exclude children from play.

I want to say a few words about our approach to the lowest-prize gaming machines, which children can use. These machines are found in leisure sites such as seaside fairs and funfairs, but they are also available in a wide range of premises such as fish and chip shops and taxicab offices. I have received many representations from those who disagree with children being allowed to use gaming machines at all, and I have sympathy with those who observe that Britain is unusual in allowing children to play on any category of slot machine, but I think that it would be wrong of the Government to ignore the fact that children have been permitted to use amusement machines for many decades without clear evidence of an impact on the level of problem gambling among children.

Such amusement machines have also been a traditional and well-loved part of the family leisure and seaside experience. We have not yet seen sufficiently compelling evidence to ban children from using these machines altogether. I know that the Joint Committee considered this matter very carefully and also reached that view. We must remain vigilant and cautious in relation to future risks, so I assure the House that on this issue and every other aspect of the Bill I will listen very carefully to the views of hon. Members.

Lawrie Quinn (Labour, Scarborough and Whitby)

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. In the context of the many seaside communities around the country, is it not her experience, as it is mine and that of many hon. Members who represent those communities, that the family businesses that run such arcades have a high level of enforcement and make an important contribution to measures to stop antisocial behaviour at the seaside? Is that not the higher standard that we are trying to achieve in this Bill?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is because those high standards of supervision are exercised in so many of these arcades that the evidence of problem gambling among children has not been produced. We want that vigilance to increase. That is why there is a reserve power in the Bill to be used should evidence of problems arise some time in the future, but as my hon. Friend made clear—I know that many hon. Members with constituency interests have found this—by and large, the regime in seaside arcades and family entertainment centres is very responsible. By withdrawing category D machines, as they are called, from fish and chip shops and minicab offices, we deal with the risks of ambient gambling and of exposing children to gambling.

Let me move to a conclusion. Gambling is a legitimate industry that requires fair and proportionate regulation. It is an industry where the freedom to operate is important, but only when the public are properly protected. The Bill will protect the public at a time when technology threatens to overwhelm us with new, poorly regulated gambling opportunities. It provides vital new powers to protect children and put an end to socially irresponsible practices. It puts Parliament and the regulators back in control, with the power to toughen controls and the evidence on which to act. Crucially, it puts power firmly in the hands of local communities. New casinos will come to their area only if they want them—full stop.

The Government know that adults should be allowed to exercise their personal freedom, that vulnerable people must be protected and that everyone should be protected from the unregulated consequences of the free market in an area such as gambling. We have always recognised that opinion on gambling cuts across normal party political divides. That is why we have sought to continue the long practice of the House of developing policy in an open and, where possible, a non-partisan way.

That is why we welcomed many of the recommendations of the Joint Committee chaired so ably by the hon. Member for Ryedale. It is why we agree with the Leader of the Opposition when as Home Secretary, rather than as Leader of the Opposition jumping on the opportunistic bandwagon, he announced plans to free casinos and bingo halls from outdated and restrictive rules. It is why we agreed with the words of the then junior Home Office Minister responsible for gambling when he asked, "Why should we stop people choosing to spend their evenings playing roulette?" It is why we understood the hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Johnson), the Opposition spokesman on culture, when in his day job as editor of The Spectator he wrote—I paraphrase: "Opposition to the Gambling Bill is nothing but low protectionism and in the case of the Daily Mail, a knee-jerk reaction to absolutely anything the Government does, dressed up as moral principle".

The Government have approached the Bill with a determination to do what is best for the British public. The Bill will protect the weak and the vulnerable. It will give the United Kingdom the most modern and the toughest regulatory regime for gambling anywhere in the world. For those reasons I commend the Bill to the House.

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

I beg to move, To leave out from 'That' to the end of the Question, and to add instead thereof:

"this House declines to give a Second Reading to the Gambling Bill since it fails to take account of the recommendations of the Joint Committee on the Draft Bill with regard to regional casinos; consequently fails to impose adequate controls on the number and location of such casinos and on the number and type of gambling machines contained; does not give local authorities sufficient powers to reject specific casino applications; opens the door to an influx of overseas-owned super casinos in our towns and cities, close to where people live; and is likely to promote gambling and lead to further diversion of funds from the National Lottery, severe disadvantage to the existing UK gaming industry and a significant increase in problem gambling."

May I begin by expressing our appreciation to the Secretary of State for her coming to the House to move the Second Reading? We are aware that she suffered a family bereavement recently and it is very good of her to be here this afternoon.

As the Secretary of State suggested, the Bill has been a very long time in its gestation. It originates from the Budd report, which was published some three years ago, and since then there has been a huge amount of debate, scrutiny and consultation. I join the right hon. Lady in paying tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway). He and his Committee did a fantastic job in taking evidence from every possible interest group affected by the Bill, and there is no doubt that the Bill was much improved by his work. Indeed, it would be an even better Bill if the Government had chosen to accept all the Committee's recommendations.

Given all the attention that the Bill has had over the past three years, it is extraordinary that at this eleventh hour the Secretary of State had to come to the House this afternoon to announce last-minute concessions so that she might be able to persuade some on her own side to give it their support in the vote this evening.

Tony Banks (Labour, West Ham)

Of course, if my right hon. Friend had not made any announcements, the hon. Gentleman would accuse her of being arrogant and insensitive to opinion, so she cannot win in either case. In view of the announcements that she made during her Second Reading speech, do the Government intend to withdraw their amendment opposing Second Reading?

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

The hon. Gentleman is a little premature. We are not quite in Government yet. It is true that the Secretary of State has announced some concessions that we welcome, but there are still major points of concern that she has not addressed, which are spelled out in our amendment. The right hon. Lady has said that she is in listening mode. We hope that she will continue to listen during the debate and when we consider the Bill in Committee. There are still major flaws in the Bill.

Until now, the history of gambling regulation has been one of gradual and cautious liberalisation. For 30 years, the UK industry has been a model of responsibility. It has been largely free of organised criminal activity and the level of problem gambling is much lower in this country than elsewhere. It was for that reason that the previous Conservative Government felt able to introduce measures to liberalise the rules.

In 1994, the waiting period for membership of casinos was reduced from 48 hours to 24 hours and casinos were allowed to apply to serve alcohol after midnight and to accept debit cards, but not credit cards. Two years later, the Home Office issued a consultation paper on proposals to allow limited local advertising and to extend the number of permitted areas for casinos to 21, in order for them to be allowed to be established in some seaside resorts and conference towns. I point out to the Secretary of State, in response to her remarks at the end of her speech, that the Government said specifically at that time that there was a need to maintain tight control of casino gaming and that they did not support allowing resort-style casinos in this country.

David Wright (Labour, Telford)

The hon. Gentleman acknowledges that the Conservative Government accepted a proposal to allow 21 more casinos in 1996–97. Thankfully, that was stopped by the Labour Government when they took office. Does he agree that the Conservative proposal for new casinos was to be achieved through deregulation, whereas this Bill is primary legislation? The Conservative proposal would have been legislation through the back door, rather than constructive consultation within the industry.

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

The measures to which I referred, which were implemented by the previous Conservative Government, were subject to enormous consultation. They represented a modest step forward. We are faced today not with a modest step forward but with a massive change that will completely alter the nature of gambling in this country. The hon. Gentleman refers to the industry having been consulted. The industry is deeply unhappy with many of the recommendations and feels, in particular, that the new rules suddenly announced in response to the second report of the Scrutiny Committee were subject to no consultation whatsoever.

There is much in the Bill that we support. There is no doubt that during the past seven years a huge change has taken place. In particular, there has been the growth of interactive and online gambling, which is completely unregulated. We therefore agree that the time has come for gambling legislation to be overhauled and brought up to date.

We welcome the establishment of the gambling commission as a new unified regulator for betting, gaming and lotteries. However, the reported decision to locate the headquarters of the commission in Newcastle has led to complaints that it will be far away from the industry that it is regulating. I understand that the chairman of the Gaming Board for Great Britain has attacked the proposal. I would be grateful if the Secretary of State would confirm whether that is the case.

We welcome the creation of the new offence of inviting, permitting or causing a child to gamble, as well as the action taken by the industry to establish a responsibility—

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

I am not sure what the hon. Gentleman has got against Newcastle. I can say, as a former councillor, that it is a fine city with at least three casinos, two of which were established under the Tyne and Wear development corporation, an invention of the previous Conservative Government.

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

The concern of the chairman of the Gaming Board is that very few of the existing members of the board will want to transfer to Newcastle. That is a serious concern.

An area where regulation is most urgently needed is that of remote gaming. Gambling on the internet has become a huge business in the space of a few years, and it is predicted that the industry will be worth £10 billion globally within the next five years. At present, such gambling can take place only on websites hosted outside the UK—it is, of course, impossible to stop such gambling, as has been found in Australia and the United States, where they have tried to do so. Many offshore sites offer no player protection and few safeguards against under-age access or criminal activity. It therefore makes sense to have a licensed and regulated UK-based industry, where players can be certain that their bets will be honoured and that operators will be above board. We therefore support the provisions of the Bill dealing with remote gambling and agree that they must be enacted as soon as possible.

Other elements of the Bill concern us. The Government's attitude towards fixed-odds betting terminals remains uncertain. Will those machines be treated like other category B machines and allowed in adult gaming centres and bingo halls? Having listened to the Secretary of State's speech this afternoon, that concern will grow because she appeared unwilling to accept the agreement between the Association of British Bookmakers and the Gaming Board.

Equally, the point at which users of betting exchanges will be considered as conducting a business—which could potentially make them subject to licensing requirements—rather than as recreational users is still unclear. The bingo industry is also looking for reassurance that games currently permitted under section 21 of the Gaming Act 1968 will be allowed to continue. We will seek clarification on all those issues in Committee.

We also have reservations about the Government's decision to disallow the lowest stake category D machines from non-licensed premises such as fish and chip shops and minicab offices. Although the Joint Committee suggested that approach, little evidence exists that the existing arrangement has resulted in harm, yet the proposal will deprive many small businesses of an important source of revenue.

David Heathcoat-Amory (Conservative, Wells)

Does my hon. Friend agree that the powers taken in the Bill effectively to drive out traditional, family seaside arcades make it impossible for those businesses to plan ahead? The contradiction between the highly restrictive powers at the small end of the market and liberalism at the heavy, casino end of the spectrum wrecks any attempt at fair-mindedness in the Bill. Will my hon. Friend go a little bit further in his determination to protect the traditional seaside arcade against an uncomprehending Government?

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

My right hon. Friend speaks for many operators in seaside arcades and amusement centres who are deeply concerned about the powers in the Bill to prevent children from continuing to use machines such as penny-falls and cranes. The Secretary of State has said that the power will be reserved, but many people feel that there is no evidence that such machines have ever led to any harm. While that reserved power is in the Bill, such people will continue to believe that the Government will impose controls at a future date. I say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory), my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Mr. Simmonds) and the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (Geraldine Smith), who have all raised the same point, that we continue to believe that that particular clause is unnecessary and that it should be removed.

Henry Bellingham (Conservative, North West Norfolk)

This morning, I went around a number of arcades in my constituency, including one in Hunstanton. I spent a certain amount of money playing with the crane machines and the pushing machines. I heard from the owners of that arcade that those machines do not corrupt; all those machines do is give a lot of amusement to young children, which is an historical tradition in seaside resorts. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government must make their plans clear because such arcades currently face a great deal of uncertainty?

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

I agree with my hon. Friend and hope that he won a teddy bear from the crane. However, I do not think that the experience will have corrupted him or led him to gambling addiction. It is extraordinary that the Government appear determined to take powers to prevent children from using cranes and penny-fall machines, when they are prepared to open the door to huge regional casinos filled with up to 1,250 unlimited prize machines.

I come now to the most controversial issue—the measures further to liberalise the laws relating to casinos. Conservative Members accept that there is a case for a further relaxation in some aspects, such as restrictions on advertising, the confinement of casinos to permitted areas and the 24-hour delay before membership is granted. However, regional casinos of the kind proposed have never been seen before in this country—nor, until now, have we permitted the introduction of category A gaming machines. Those machines, which have unlimited stakes and prizes, have proved to be the biggest cause of problem gambling in Australia following the liberalisation that took place there, so it is absolutely essential to proceed cautiously in that respect.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Is it not the case that the relaxation of restrictions on casinos was included in the White Paper that was published in March, and that the March edition of "Conservative News" welcomed plans to liberalise the laws on gambling? What has changed since then?

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

As I said, we are not opposed to liberalisation of the laws of gambling, but we believe that we need to proceed cautiously. The announcements that the Government have made since the publication of the Joint Committee report have given rise to our greatest concerns, because they show that in those areas the Government are clearly not proceeding cautiously.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

rose—

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

rose—

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

I give way to the hon. Gentleman.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

rose—

Michael Lord (Deputy Speaker, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)

Order. The hon. Gentleman has given way to Kevan Jones.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

In fact, the Government are proceeding cautiously, because the Bill will not liberalise high-jackpot machines, but will limit them to certain casinos— unlike in Australia, where things have gone wrong because of their unlimited use.

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

The Bill takes us from a situation in which there are no such machines to one in which there may be 50,000. That is not, in my view, cautious liberalisation—[Interruption.] The Secretary of State asks where we get the figure of 50,000 from. She has said that there will be up to 40 regional casinos. There may be up to 1,250 machines in each of those, so that equals 50,000.

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

It is absolutely essential that this debate is conducted on the basis of fact, not fantasy, myth and mistaken beliefs. The expectation is that about 10 per cent. of machines in regional casinos will be category A machines that do not have a specified stake or prize. If there is any evidence that they are causing harm, it will be for the gambling commission to reduce the stake and the prize. That deals with the hon. Gentleman's concerns. Whether in relation to this or to my very clear assurances on seaside arcades, it is important that he sticks to the facts instead of writing a novel.

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

The fact is that regional casinos will be allowed up to 1,250 machines, which, as they can be of any category, could all be category A; it is not sufficient for the Secretary of State merely to say that her expectation is that they will not be. I hope that she will take seriously my suggestions on how further limits could be imposed.

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

As my hon. Friend knows, I have been following these issues for many years. The Government have not accepted the concerns expressed by many people in the industry and on both sides of this House and in the upper House, as reflected in the excellent report by the Joint Committee chaired by our hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway), that if the Government's proposals are proceeded with we will lose the regenerative effect of the casinos on some of our run-down resorts, whereas if the Committee's recommendations were accepted we could ensure that the regenerative effect occurs. Does my hon. Friend agree that the real problem is that the Government have ensured that there can be huge casinos in major cities, not only in resorts?

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right; I wish to deal with that point later.

I want to return to my point about the Government's original intention, which, as the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones) suggested, appeared to be based on cautious liberalisation. We were first told that there would be a limited number of resort destination casinos and that they were so called because they would be located in seaside resorts and away from centres of population. Limiting the accessibility of jackpot machines was said at the time to be crucial to the Government's objective of protecting children and the vulnerable. However, the Government have been seduced by the prospect of the millions of pounds of investment being offered by the overseas operators who want to come and set up in this country. According to some of those companies to which I have spoken, they are willing to invest tens, if not hundreds, of millions of pounds in each one of the new mega-casinos; in doing so, they would provide thousands of jobs. Of course that is a tempting prospect, but those companies are not proposing to make that investment out of altruism. The return on their investment will come from the 20,000 people they are hoping to attract through the doors of each casino every week.

Chris Bryant (Labour, Rhondda)

I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman has had time to look at the report of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, which looked at the original draft of the Gambling Bill some time before the Joint Committee, chaired by the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway), produced its report. The Select Committee—which included several of the hon. Gentleman's Conservative colleagues, none of whom demurred for an instant at the time, although they are now doing so—listened to the Bishop of Blackburn putting very clearly the argument in favour of the regeneration of Blackpool. He wanted to see that financial investment being made. Does the hon. Gentleman think that the bishop has succumbed to temptation?

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

I would say two things to the hon. Gentleman. First, the proposals on the table today are very different from those that were on the table when his Select Committee was examining the issue. Secondly, he cites the Bishop of Blackburn, but I hope that he is not suggesting that the Churches generally support the Bill. He only has to look at the remarks of a number of archbishops, and of representatives of the Methodist Church, the Salvation Army and many other religious groups, to see that they are bitterly opposed to many of the provisions in the Bill.

Nigel Evans (Conservative, Ribble Valley)

Does my hon. Friend accept that while the Bishop of Blackburn might want to see Blackpool being regenerated through the possibility of one resort casino being established there, that is a very different matter from splattering casinos around every major city and town in the United Kingdom? There are so many questions that need to be answered on the Bill, particularly in regard to the super-jackpot machines. If we were to pilot these new casinos in a small number of areas—perhaps Blackpool could be one—we could test their impact on the country.

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

That very sensible suggestion has also been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Bercow).

Julie Kirkbride (Conservative, Bromsgrove)

I think that the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) chose to misinterpret the conclusions reached by the Conservative members of the Select Committee, of whom I was one at the time to which he referred. The simple fact is that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) has said, establishing a resort destination casino in Blackpool while we test the market is one thing, but introducing casinos with category A gaming machines in 40 cities across the country is very different.

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for setting out her position, and to the other Conservative members of the Committee. As several of my hon. Friends have suggested, the original hope that this proposal might lead to the regeneration of seaside resorts such as Blackpool will actually be undermined by the proposals before us, as there is no doubt that the operators of the casinos would much rather locate them in central Manchester or Liverpool, for example, than in Blackpool, if they had the opportunity to do so.

Joan Humble (Labour, Blackpool North and Fleetwood)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, especially as he is talking about Blackpool. Does he believe that the regional casinos could lead to the regeneration of towns such as Blackpool? If so, will he tell me how his voting against this Second Reading would enable that to happen?

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

We are concerned that the original intention to locate the casinos in seaside resorts and other places that need regeneration will be undermined by the shift in the Government's strategy towards locating them in centres of population. That is one of our deep concerns about the Bill, and one of the reasons why we cannot support it this evening.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

The logic seems to be that the Bill will receive its Second Reading tonight and that we shall then have an opportunity to improve it in Committee. If the hon. Gentleman supports the 90 per cent. of the Bill that is in favour of protecting people from gambling, I cannot understand why he is opposing it on Second Reading.

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

If the hon. Gentleman reads the reasoned amendment that we have tabled, he will see that it sets out clearly why we cannot support the Bill tonight. As I conceded earlier, the Bill contains some proposals that we support, but at the moment, it is fatally flawed in several respects, and there is a real danger that it will lead to an increase in gambling addiction and will fail to provide the protection that the Government claim that it will provide for children and the vulnerable.

Andrew Selous (Conservative, South West Bedfordshire)

Does not my hon. Friend think it strange that the Government pray in aid the need for super-casinos to bring economic regeneration to many parts of the country when they might look instead to sports, film and arts venues, particularly for young people who are poorly served, if they really want to see such regeneration?

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

I agree with my hon. Friend.

Why have the Government decided to throw caution to the wind, give up on the slow and gradual approach to liberalisation, and instead fling open the doors? The first indication that we had was that the new approach represents a pot of gold for the Treasury. The Secretary of State said this afternoon that her adviser's comment that the tax regime would be revenue-neutral had been somehow misunderstood. In fact, the Minister for Media and Heritage told a conference last year that a key aim of the Bill was to raise tax revenue for the Treasury. We also know that the parliamentary Labour party brief on the Bill states:

"Parliamentary Labour Party members should bear in mind that some of the towns and cities that want to use a casino as part of a broader leisure, tourism and regeneration strategy are key Labour seats".

Those are the real reasons why the Government have abandoned their previous approach and are now desperate to get this Bill on the statute book before the next election.

The Secretary of State has said that she is prepared to listen to Members' concerns during the passage of the Bill. Many of our concerns, however, were identified by the all-party scrutiny Committee in its report in July. It proposed specific safeguards against proliferation, yet those were rejected by the Government. If the Secretary of State had listened at the time, many of the problems could have been averted. In particular, the scrutiny Committee proposed limiting the number of casinos by increasing the minimum non-gambling area from 1,500 to 4,000 sq m. Doing so would have helped to ensure that casinos were closer to leisure complexes offering a different range of attractions, rather than simply giant gambling dens. More importantly, it would have increased the size of total investment required, which in the Committee's view would have limited the likely number built to about 20 to 25.

The Secretary of State has said this afternoon that her proposals will result in 20 to 40 regional casinos being built. The truth is that the Bill does not provide for any upper limit, and as the Government's response to the scrutiny Committee states,

"estimates of the number of regional casinos likely to be developed are necessarily speculative".

That is why Members on both sides of the House are saying that if the Secretary of State is proved wrong—by her admission in her report, she might be—there is a case for having some kind of cap on the figure so that we do not see a proliferation of such regional casinos, which are of a kind that we have never seen previously.

Rob Marris (Labour, Wolverhampton South West)

In spite of the hon. Gentleman's reservations about other less controversial parts of the Bill, would he and his colleagues support the Bill if it included such a cap?

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

That would be a considerable step forward, but the Secretary of State has already rejected it this afternoon, so it does not seem likely. I hope that the Secretary of State and Ministers will address several concerns in Committee. We will examine it when it comes back from Committee to see whether it is improved.

Dave Watts (Labour, St Helens North)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is not the number of casinos that matters? We all know that the vast majority of people can gamble without becoming addicted, but a small number become addicted and need help and support. Would it not be better for him to concentrate on, for example, controlling credit betting and ensuring that services are available to help the small number of people who would become addicted, regardless of the number of casinos, or of any other gambling establishments?

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

There are steps that need to be taken, particularly to try to increase the protection available to those people, a point to which I shall return.

John Bercow (Conservative, Buckingham)

This is, after all, a Second Reading debate on the Bill's general principles. Given that it seeks a balance between freedom and protection, that the Joint Committee said that there is no justification whatsoever for delaying its introduction, and that my hon. Friend has himself said that arcane and anomalous gambling laws are holding back our businesses, how does he answer the charge that a decision to oppose the Bill outright on Second Reading would represent not principled opposition, but political expediency?

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

I answer that charge by saying that the Bill as drafted has got it wrong. The Government have had ample opportunity to build in the safeguards for which hon. Members from all parts of the House have been calling—in particular, those set out clearly in the report of my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale and his Committee. If the Government had been willing to listen then, the Bill would have been considerably better and more deserving of support. However, they were not willing to listen, which is why we are unable to support it this evening.

Chris Bryant (Labour, Rhondda)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

I will give way on the subject of caps.

Chris Bryant (Labour, Rhondda)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being very generous. Several hon. Members have argued that the Bill should include a cap on the number of super-casinos, but is that not illogical? Only if the Government or a central body decide the location of each super-casino can one impose a national cap. If we allow local and regional authorities to make those decisions, it is difficult to set a national cap.

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

The Government have already said that regional planning bodies will play a key role in the process. It would be perfectly sensible to suggest an initial cap of, say, one or two casinos per region. It would then be for the regional planning bodies to decide where they should be located. That would represent co-operation between national Government and regional planning bodies, and it would be up to local authorities to determine particular sites. That seems a perfectly sensible way forward.

The Secretary of State laid great stress on the role of local authorities and their powers to reject casino developments. However, it is difficult to see a local authority resisting the temptation of the tax revenue and potential planning gain that an investment of this size could bring, especially if it takes the view that if it turned it down, the neighbouring authority would simply take the benefit instead.

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

Will the hon. Gentleman share with the House his views about whether planning circular 1/97 of the national planning policy should apply? It clearly states:

"Planning obligations should never be used as a means of securing for the local community a share of the profits of the development".

If it should apply, does that not mean that regeneration benefits will be much smaller than the Government say?

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

I do think that it should apply, and I have been disturbed by one or two reports suggesting that it may have been contravened.

The one concession that the Secretary of State made this afternoon, which is welcome, was her agreement to introduce a separate use class for all casinos. A number of us were concerned that one of the drivers towards proliferation would be the ability of leisure facilities within the same use class to convert to casinos. So she appears at least to have closed off one option this afternoon, and we welcome that.

Another concern about which the scrutiny Committee heard evidence was that one of the major contributors to increased problem gambling is convenience. Professor Peter Collins said:

"from a problem gambling point of view, there is no doubt that it is better not to locate casinos in town centres. There is no question of that".

It is for that reason that we in the scrutiny Committee regard it as essential that regional casinos should not be on high streets, but located away from where people live. We had understood that that was originally the Secretary of State's own view, but in deciding the most suitable areas for regional casinos, regional planning bodies have been told explicitly that they must take account of planning guidance that requires major new facilities to promote the vitality and viability of existing town centres.

The letter that the Minister sent to the scrutiny Committee confirmed that PPS6 and PPG13 together

"direct casinos towards the most central and accessible locations".

He even went as far as to suggest that any applications that did not follow that guidance were likely to be called in. The scrutiny Committee concluded that there was an inconsistency between the policy objectives of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and those of the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. I have to say that "inconsistency" seems to me to be a considerable understatement. If the Secretary of State is to deliver the Bill's objective of protecting children and the vulnerable, it is essential that the planning guidance for the location of new casinos should be changed.

Another difference between the draft Bill and the one before us today relates to new category A, so-called "million pound" jackpot machines. Originally, the Government proposed that they should be allowed in all casinos and be subject only to the machine-to-table ratio. They also proposed that in regional casinos there should be no limit on numbers at all. Although it was not a recommendation of the scrutiny Committee, the Government then decided to restrict category A machines to regional casinos alone and impose a cap on the number of machines at 1,250. By doing that, they will increase the attraction of regional casinos and severely disadvantage existing UK operators. Those companies rightly point out that they will be unable to compete if they are prevented from offering any category A machines in their existing casinos while the new regional ones can contain up to 1,250 such machines. The pressure on them to convert into regional casinos will be enormous and will lead to still more proliferation.

The answer, as the scrutiny Committee again pointed out, is to allow a limited number of category A machines into small and large casinos, or alternatively to increase the maximum stake and prize that category B machines can offer. That would help to address the problem of the cliff edge that the Government have created between large and regional casinos.

As I said earlier, however, we also believe that there is a case for further limiting the number of category A machines. Most operators predict that the maximum number of 1,250 machines in regional casinos will, as the Secretary of State confirmed, contain a mix of different categories. We believe that, within the overall limit, it makes sense to impose a further restriction on category A machines so that we can monitor the effect of their introduction in this country.

There is one more measure of protection that we believe is necessary. At present, the membership requirement for UK casinos allows operators to bar from their premises those who are known to be problem gamblers. It is another important safeguard to try to stop gambling addiction. Yet by scrapping the membership requirements, that protection will be lost. The lack of any form of identification requirement also removes a vital safeguard against money laundering. Indeed, it may well be in breach of the EU's third directive on money laundering. According to the press yesterday, a senior civil servant wrote to American casino companies asking what dispensations they wanted under the legislation. The companies then made it clear—

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

The hon. Gentleman may want to withdraw that comment and I undertake to write to him separately about it. The allegation is untrue.

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for her assurance that those reports were untrue. I, of course, accept her word on that, but it does not change the fact that the Government are proposing to exempt large casinos from the requirement to identify those who are involved in transactions of more than £700. I would be interested to know whether the Secretary of State also denies the report that the Association of Chief Police Officers has protested about that. Is that also wrong?

Tessa Jowell (Labour, Dulwich and West Norwood)

I am very happy to say that, given that one of the objectives of the Bill is to keep gambling crime-free, we have of course consulted the police throughout. Discussions on the money laundering directive are a matter for the Treasury and still continue. In its final shape, the Bill will ensure that we keep crime out—money laundering or any other crime that could infiltrate gambling in this country.

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

The most effective way of preventing money laundering is to retain the requirement that those undertaking large transactions must provide identification. Under the Bill, that safeguard will be lost. The safeguard against money laundering and the membership requirement, which would provide an additional layer of protection for those who are suffering from gambling addiction, are to be removed simply because they do not happen to satisfy the American business model.

Jim Sheridan (Labour, West Renfrewshire)

The hon. Gentleman is talking about measures to protect vulnerable people from being seduced by gambling. There has been a furore in the popular press about the Bill having the effect of increasing and enhancing gambling among vulnerable people, but does the hon. Gentleman agree that if that same popular press were really concerned about protecting people from being seduced by gambling, they could play their part by removing the racing sections from their papers, which not only encourage people to gamble, but advise them on how to do so?

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

We are concerned about the Bill partly because it represents a completely new and different form of gambling from anything that we have seen before. It is for that reason that we are urging caution. I am interested that the Secretary of State said that my comments on the membership requirement were incorrect. In that case, perhaps she will reconsider whether it would be wise to retain a membership requirement both to tackle problem gambling and to deal with the danger of money laundering.

Tony Banks (Labour, West Ham)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

John Whittingdale (Conservative, Maldon and East Chelmsford)

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I must wind up my remarks.

The Bill initially enjoyed widespread support, but by refusing to listen to those who have advocated a cautious approach combined with sensible safeguards, the Government have managed to unite almost everyone against it. People are against the Bill, not because of snobbery but because it will disadvantage responsible and long-standing UK companies, lead to a proliferation of casinos in our towns and cities and risk creating a massive increase in problem gambling. The Secretary of State has said that she is listening and is prepared to amend the Bill. It is a pity that she was not willing to do so earlier.

Michael Lord (Deputy Speaker, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)

Before I call the next speaker, I remind the House that Mr. Speaker has placed a 10-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches, which will apply from now on.

Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has had a difficult task introducing the Bill today. As we have been good friends for more than 33 years, I hope that we will remain so at the end of this debate and of future ones. I feel fairly confident that she was not referring to me in her reference to a whiff of snobbery, and I hope that she will excuse me from any charge of opportunism.

I support most of the Bill because we clearly need to modernise the laws on gambling, but I oppose the proposal to make it easier for multinational casinos to rip off hard-working British families. There is no public demand for the provisions in the Bill. Before there was any unstimulated demand, shall we say, opinion polls showed that more than 90 per cent. of the population believed that there were enough opportunities for gambling already. People have come to my advice surgeries about housing, schools, pensions, passports and policing, but in 25 years I cannot recall one person coming to see me because they wanted us to increase the opportunities for gambling. I have, however, had quite a lot of people coming to see me because their lives have been ruined by their spouse's gambling away all the family income. We should not do anything that is likely to increase the opportunities for that. There is no public demand for the changes, so we appear to be changing the law to make it easier for casino companies to tempt hard-working British families to lose their money so that they can make profits. It is worth remembering that the casinos cannot make profits unless most punters lose their money.

In future, we shall permit extra temptations that are not currently on offer. It will be possible to walk into a casino with no cooling-off period of 24 hours. There will be an enormous number of machines and prizes of possibly £1 million in those places. We are lifting the restriction on advertising so that casinos can deliberately stimulate demand that does not exist without such stimulation. That will increase gambling, especially through slot machines, and the evidence shows that slot machines are a major source of problem gambling and of people getting hooked.

I am not only worried about those who may get hooked on gambling. I believe that, at a time when we are discussing the need for more people to save, be careful with money and put money aside for their pensions and for the future, it is foolish of the Government to say, "We're going to make it easier for you to blow it at a casino."

The Government claim that there will not be a large increase in the number of casinos but just 20 or 40 new ones. Ministers have referred to those figures as "a modest increase" on the existing 134. An increase of 40 on 134 is 30 per cent. If the trade unions presented a proposal for a 30 per cent. increase in the national minimum wage, I do not believe that the Cabinet would regard it as a modest increase that should be approved.

Win Griffiths (Labour, Bridgend)

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)

I would rather get on because others want to speak.

The problem is not only 40 more casinos but that they will be much larger. If they are allowed 1,250 slot machines each, it means, as I understand it, that each new one will have more slot machines than those in all the existing casinos put together. That increases the opportunity for gambling. The bigger prizes on offer make it more likely that people will gamble and that there will be more gambling.

We are told that the Bill will permit the regeneration of inner cities. Have we reached the stage when the only way in which we can regenerate our inner cities depends on inviting American casino companies to bail us out? That is not the best way to achieve regeneration. If we stick it on top of 24-hour drinking, the combination will not greatly assist the prevailing situation in many of our inner cities.

We are told that there will be not only a casino built at each location but hotels, restaurants and entertainment facilities, as if they would tempt people away from the tables and machines. They will not. The hotels, restaurants and entertainment will be there to attract people to the casinos so that they go to the restaurant and afterwards to the tables; stay at the hotel and go to the tables, and go to a show and subsequently to the tables. Things that are presented as a means of amelioration are there to make the casinos more attractive.

David Marshall (Labour, Glasgow Shettleston)

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Frank Dobson (Labour, Holborn and St Pancras)

I should prefer not to because others want to speak.

I have every sympathy with the people of Blackpool and of other holiday resorts. It would be a good idea if the Government acknowledged that Blackpool and one or two other places might benefit from one of the new casinos. They could choose the places—I have never objected to central Government's making a few decisions now and again. If that happened, we could ascertain how the casinos worked. A private Bill that covered several places could subsequently be promoted or a measure could be introduced from the centre. That might show us what could be done and bring benefits to those areas.

However, if there are to be big casinos in every major centre of population, the holiday resort casinos can forget the massive improvement in takings that they expect because people will not go to Blackpool if they can go to a casino nearer home in Manchester. All the points that I have made so far concern the public. Let me say something about the harm that I believe the proposals are doing to the reputation of the Labour party and the Labour Government. They are putting off a lot of people whom we would do well not to put off—a lot of concerned people who are already unhappy about one or two aspects of the Government's policies.

People come up to me and ask "Why is he doing it?" I think they are referring to the Prime Minister. They consider the Bill to be contrary to the Labour party's normal slightly paternalistic, slightly puritan image. It is also rather at variance with the greater emphasis on religious belief that has been common in Government in recent times. And it is contrary to things that the Chancellor and others are saying about the need to save and put money aside for pensions.

There is no public demand for the Bill. The demand is coming from American gambling companies. They may have changed; but in the eyes of the British public—who may remember films made years ago—they are connected with organised crime, money laundering, drugs and prostitution. That is the sort of word association that occurs to people, and I think it is very damaging to our party. It does make people wonder "Why are they doing it?" I think that that question itself is very damaging to us as a party.

I believe that the Bill would be bad for the country, bad for hard-working families and bad for the party. It is the worst possible political combination: it is both wrong and unpopular.

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

I join the hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale) in thanking the Secretary of State, and indeed expressing admiration of her for coming here today in the light of her recent bereavement.

The hon. Gentleman was right to praise the work of the Joint Committee, and in particular its Chairman, the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway). The Secretary of State has accused the Bill's opponents of grabbing opportunism from a passing bandwagon. She fails to understand that many people who initially supported much more of the Bill were influenced by the Government's failure to note some of the Committee's recommendations.

The hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford summarised his party's concerns. We share many of them, as our amendment makes clear. It explains why we will vote against Second Reading, notwithstanding one welcome U-turn by the Secretary of State about which I shall say more later.

As others have observed, much of the Bill is welcome. It provides a much-needed updating of existing legislation. Like many other people, we are pleased about the stronger, broader regulation that will result from the replacement of the Gaming Board with the gambling commission. It will be stronger because the commission will have greater powers to rescind licences, impose higher fines and enter and inspect premises. It will be broader because it will cover remote gambling such as internet, betting-exchange and interactive television gambling.

Tony Banks (Labour, West Ham)

The hon. Gentleman was good enough to acknowledge one concession made by the Secretary of State, among a number of others. But how can he say that he supports at least 90 per cent. of the Bill, and then vote against its Second Reading? He could try to make further improvements during a Committee stage that he will deny the Bill if it is not passed tonight.

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

First, the Secretary of State's concessions are not actually in the Bill. Secondly, we are concerned about many other matters, which I shall enumerate shortly. Thirdly, as I shall explain, in many instances we feel that the Government's basic premises are seriously flawed. For those three reasons, we will vote against the Bill.

I was referring to the need to have control over remote gambling. The Secretary of State rightly points to the 3 million to 4 million people involved in internet gambling. We note that those involved in providing it—for example, Sportingbet—are reporting significant increases in turnover. Yet at the same time it is deeply worrying to learn that it is very easy for children and young people to become involved in that. A recent survey showed that an 11-year-old girl was able to register with 30 out of 37 internet gambling sites, so we accept entirely that regulation is needed to protect the vulnerable and to ensure integrity.

Bill Tynan (Labour, Hamilton South)

If the hon. Gentleman sincerely believes that the Bill cures the problems to which he has just referred, how can he support opposing the Bill at this stage? I could understand his party voting against it on Third Reading if the improvements that he desired had not been made, but how can he possible justify it at this time?

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

I think that I have already answered that question in reply to the hon. Member for West Ham (Mr. Banks), but while 90 per cent. of the Bill may well be good, and I believe that it is, if the 10 per cent. is so very bad and continues to be so, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not accept that we should support it, and I want to deal now with my serious concerns about it.

May I refer in passing to the broader remit of the gambling commission? I welcome the fact that it will require casinos and others to have higher standards in respect of social responsibility and that those involved have agreed to a target of a £3 million contribution to a fund to alleviate some of the problems caused by gambling, but I remind the House that that figure is only 0.035 per cent. of the £8.5 billion that is spent annually in this country on gambling, and I suspect that it is unlikely to prove to be a high enough figure, so I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State will have reserve powers to impose a levy if that is the case.

To return to the point that has just been made, I am concerned about some aspects of the Bill, particularly those proposals relating to the new super-casinos and the enormous number of unlimited-prize machines that there might be within them. We are worried about the likely number of such casinos, their location, the speed of their introduction and the controls over them. We are particularly worried about the introduction of the unlimited-prize machines in such large numbers without any significant research having been done into the likely effects that they will have on problem gambling. The Secretary of State has told us that only 10 per cent. of machines in super-casinos may be of this type, but even if that is the case—I suspect that it will be far more—we will still be introducing 5,000 of these machines in this country without any sort of trial. I am also worried that the Secretary of State in response to the hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford said that it will be for the gambling commission to decide what that percentage will be. For the sake of anyone thinking of investing in these new super-casinos, I hope that the gambling commission will be up and running and have made a decision on what that proportion will be, because presumably that will directly impact upon a potential investor's decision whether to set up such a casino.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

The hon. Gentleman could have made many of these criticisms when the White Paper was published in March, yet in a Liberal Democrat press release his colleague, the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey), said:

"At last Britain is moving with the times, giving British resorts the opportunity to challenge America as a destination for casino holidays."

Does he now disagree with his hon. Friend?

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

No, I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey), but I hope that the hon. Gentleman will read the end of that press release, which points to the issue of problem gambling. He read it out accurately and I am grateful to him for doing that because my hon. Friend specifically referred to destination casinos. One of the key problems is that the Secretary of State and her Government have changed the clear recommendation on destination casinos that my hon. Friend was supporting at the time.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

The hon. Gentleman said that he realised that online betting and access by children to that is a real problem, with which I agree. Why therefore will he and other Liberal Democrats vote against the regulation of that tonight? Thanks very much for giving us another soundbite for a leaflet.

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

Thank you very much to the hon. Gentleman for giving Liberal Democrats the soundbite that he is happy to go ahead with unrestricted regional casinos that 93 per cent. of the British public do not want. Of course, if he intends to vote against the Bill, he has the same problem that he alleges I have.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

The hon. Gentleman must wait until I make my contribution. I shall certainly argue for some limitations on the Bill. Is that not what he should be doing, rather than throwing everything out, including some very welcome provisions to protect the most vulnerable in our society, namely children, which clearly the Liberal Democrats do not want to do tonight?

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

The hon. Gentleman wants to have his cake and eat it—but he is entitled to do that.

We have some concerns and some suggestions about how the Bill could be improved. As the right hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) said, recent opinion polls show that people do not want increased gambling opportunities, not least because of the inevitable increase in problem gambling that they will create. Many people do not want regeneration in their area if it comes on the back of creating significant misery for many people locally.

We already have more than 300,000 gamblers—probably far more—and the Bill as it stands will inevitably increase that significantly. Everyone seems to believe that—every independent commentator—except the Secretary of State. The whole House will surely have been surprised when she said to the Joint Committee:

"If this legislation gave rise to an increase in problem gambling then it would have failed and it would be bad legislation."

We have had rash statements before. We all remember the Deputy Prime Minister's promise to reduce the number of car journeys within five years: a tall order, but hold me to it, he said. Many of us will recall John Patten—now Lord Patten—making the wonderful promise that he would eat his hat garnished if he did not meet his targets in relation to grant-maintained schools. The real question is what the Secretary of State will do if the Bill fails under the criteria that she set. I am sure that we all desperately hope that it will not involve her parading as a croupier. She at least tempered what she had said when she told my hon. Friend the Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) that nobody could say that there would not be at least one more problem gambler. I suspect that there will be far more.

Bob Russell (Liberal Democrat, Colchester)

Will my hon. Friend ask the House to reflect on the fact that 300,000, which is the number of problem gamblers already known about, is three times the number of soldiers in Her Majesty's armed forces? That puts in context the sheer volume of problem gamblers already out there.

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to one way of showing just how large a number a third of a million people is. He will be well aware that the clear evidence is that with the introduction of what could be 5,000 highly addictive category A machines the number is likely to increase significantly. It is not only the public and politicians of all parties who are concerned about this but the British businesses that will be affected. The Government said in the White Paper that

"the legitimate interests of all parties should be taken fully into account".

It is strange, then—perhaps the Minister can explain it to the House—that the Government plan to remove category D machines from fish and chip shops and taxi offices but there has been no consultation whatever with representatives of those businesses, although estimates show that up to 600 of them are likely to close as a result. In passing, he might explain what the difference is between ambient gambling in a fish and chip shop or taxi office and in a motorway service station. Many people are confused about that aspect of the legislation.

Businesses are also concerned about what appears to be preferential treatment for American casino operators. The British casino industry is understandably worried that the odds are being significantly stacked in favour of the Americans. It is the British businesses, not the American ones, who have, over 40 years, built an enviable record of integrity, fairness and social responsibility. They have raised issues of integrity about membership. We are not talking about a return to the 24-hour rule, but about having at least a membership requirement so that a record is kept of all those who enter premises. Surely the Minister and the Secretary of State have been consulting the police, and I would be amazed if the Minister tells us that the police and others have all said a membership registration scheme would not assist on money laundering or on the issues of problem gambling.

The final version of the Bill came as a huge shock to many people, including the casino industry, and there are more shocks still to come. The Bill contains many references to numerous, as yet unavailable, codes and regulations and to 32 additional powers for the Secretary of State. Many people have real concerns, some of them very basic.

The Government's arguments for more casinos do not seem to add up. They cannot even tell us how many casinos there are. Last week, on the Floor of the House, the Prime Minister told us there are 120. The DCMS website says there are 122. In response to the Joint Committee, Lord McIntosh said there were 126. More recently, in a press release, he said there were 130. The House of Commons Library, whose figures I prefer to believe, says that the figure is none of those, but is 131. If the Government cannot even get the basic facts right, how can we have confidence in other things they say?

We have been told that the Bill would be revenue-neutral, but that statement has been withdrawn, which is not surprising because the regulatory impact assessment says that the Bill should

"increase casino turnover and therefore (all being equal) tax/duty revenue".

There is confusion, too, about the number of jobs that will be created. The Prime Minister, again on the Floor of the House last week, and in a press briefing, said there would be 80,000. The Secretary of State says in articles in today's papers that there will be 85,000. Leaving that aside, in the run-up to the Bill jobs have actually been lost. British gaming machine manufacturing jobs have been lost to America, and further job losses are predicted. The Henley Centre claims that there will be "no significant employment gains" as a result of the Bill. It argues that

"certain sectors of the leisure industry, for example pubs, restaurants and hotels, will be put under great pressure in their competing leisure offerings with casinos."

In other words, it is likely that super-casinos will merely displace jobs, not create new ones.

If the super-casinos are going to take away some existing gambling business, a threat is also posed to such things as the national lottery. What will be the impact on good causes? As I said at Question Time, what will be the impact on our Olympic funding package? The regulatory impact assessment is quite clear that there will be implications. Even if national lottery sales decline by just 2.5 per cent., that would lead to a loss of almost £50 million a year for the good causes, of which £27 million would be from the Olympic lottery fund. Over five years, that figure would be more than £100 million. The Minister must explain how the funding gap will be closed in our plans for the Olympic bid.

The case for regeneration, however seductive it may be, frankly has not been made.

Joan Humble (Labour, Blackpool North and Fleetwood)

Is the hon. Gentleman aware of a report commissioned by the Northwest Development Agency and the Lancashire West partnership for the eight councils in west Lancashire on the regeneration potential of regional casinos? It has identified a substantial increase in net jobs and investment into the local area, and I recommend that the hon. Gentleman reads it before he makes further comments about regeneration.

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

I am grateful. The honest and truthful answer is that I was not aware of the report, but if the hon. Lady will make it available, I shall be delighted to read it. My point, though, is a simple one: there are conflicting bits of evidence about the issue, and it is wrong of the Government to claim categorically that all the additional jobs will be created when there is conflicting evidence about that. Surely, as many hon. Members have suggested, a far better way forward, adopting the precautionary principle, would be to move slowly, possibly by having just one new super-casino in each region. Then, we will have an opportunity to judge whether the hon. Lady's evidence or the Henley Centre's evidence or the Prime Minister's evidence is correct.

The other worry that the House should have about the Bill relates to the opinions of Lord McIntosh, who for a while has fronted up the Government's views on the Bill. He told the Joint Committee:

"I see gambling reform, which would be introduced by the Gambling Bill, as having three aspects: one is regulation, and that is clearly what the Bill is about, and that is most of what you have been covering; the second is the tax regime; and the third is the location regime. You will not fully understand the gambling reform unless you have all those three legs of the stool in place."

I am sure that he is absolutely right, but there is nothing in the Bill about the tax regime, which Lord McIntosh said was crucial if we were to understand the reform. The Secretary of State told us from the Dispatch Box only an hour ago that the tax regime for gambling was nothing to do with her and that it was all to do with the Treasury. However, if we do not have a clear understanding of the tax regime, how can we know how many new super-casinos there will be? Lord McIntosh agrees with me, but there is nothing in the Bill.

Lord McIntosh said that the location regime was the second of the three legs, but what there is on that is wholly inadequate, confusing and flawed. So basically, we have a Bill that is two legs short of a stool. We simply cannot understand the reform, as Lord McIntosh said, unless we have the other details.

We are also expected to be confident that the industry will ensure that there will be only between 20 and 40 of the new casinos. That is what the Prime Minister and the Government have claimed. The Government say that that range is an industry prediction, but I would be interested to know which part of the industry made that prediction. When I ask people in the industry whether they made it they say, "No, it's what the Government have told us, and because we find it so difficult to decide how many it should be, we haven't disagreed with them." I hope that the Minister can say which parts of the industry have told the Government that the range will be between 20 and 40. If he cannot say now, perhaps he will put the answer in the Library, because people in the industry are not capable of making such a prediction.

When people in the industry try to work out the figure and find how difficult it is they take into account the fact that there have been about 100 planning applications already, and the fact that it is reported that MGM has recently said that 10 per cent. of its global profits would come from the UK alone. Will the figure be only between 20 and 40? Who knows? But let us not be so complacent as to believe that it will be.

That is why it was so bizarre when the Secretary of State said only a few days ago in her press notice introducing the legislation:

"This is a Bill about new protections, not new casinos."

What nonsense. This is a Bill about new casinos—that is the bit of the Bill that everyone is so concerned about. The Secretary of State is deeply wrong. We are concerned about the new casinos, how many there will be, where they will be and whether the profits from them will disappear from this country and end up in America. The Bill fails in the location regime in so many ways.

Adrian Sanders (Liberal Democrat, Torbay)

Is it not the case that the Bill originally was about one resort casino, possibly in Blackpool, and that it had broad support? Now that the Bill has grown like Topsy there is less support. Surely if the Government want the Bill to go through, they ought to return to the original concept.

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

My hon. Friend is brilliant at moving me on to the next part of my speech, which is about destination casinos. The Joint Committee argued for the very point that my hon. Friend made. We should not be talking about regional casinos, but about leisure destination casinos. The Committee recognised the danger of super-casinos on the high street because of the clear link between casual, "walk in and play" gambling and problem gambling. The Government initially appeared to agree, which is why so many of us are so shocked at what has happened in the final stages of drafting the Bill.

In giving evidence to the Joint Committee at the end of last year, Lord McIntosh appeared to agree with the merits of making "a positive decision" to go gambling, rather than

"casual gambling which is thrust at you at the street corner".

Well, he seems to have changed his mind, although in the press release that he issued two days ago, he suddenly talked about destination casinos again, so whether that was a U-turn or merely a blunder, we do not know.

Fundamentally, the Government have missed the point about the type of super-casinos in limited numbers in which people might be interested. We simply do not know whether the benefits to which the Government refer—not only jobs, but economic regeneration—will come. In an earlier intervention, I quoted circular 1/97, which states:

"Planning obligations should never be used as a means of securing for the local community a share in the profits of the development."

In other words, councils cannot expect exceptional planning gain to occur. The Minister will say that circular 1/97 is out of date and has been superseded by the new Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004, but when he looks at that measure, he will see that the principle has not been changed. Can he confirm whether I am correct that councils will not be able to get exceptional planning gain when such applications are made?

David Hamilton (Labour, Midlothian)

On several occasions, it has been suggested that local authorities are the safeguard on the Bill. Are not the turnovers of some of the companies involved triple or quadruple the amount that most local authorities have? Local authorities will not be in a position to challenge what is proposed. How can one local authority reject a proposal when another will be waiting at the sidelines to accept it?

Don Foster (Liberal Democrat, Bath)

The hon. Gentleman is right to be concerned about that issue—the potential for bribing, as it has sometimes been unfairly described. It is vital that the Government consider the point that I have made in relation to the so-called section 106 agreements and what will and will not be permissible under that legislation. He raised the issue of the power of local authorities. Of course, the Government have suggested that authorities will be all-powerful in this matter. They have certainly been helped by today's announcement of the U-turn on the creation of a separate use class for all casinos. I welcome that very much, but I point out that the Bill as drafted still creates problems for individual local authorities in respect of whether they can reject specific casino proposals.

I accept entirely that it is possible under clause 157 for local authorities to reject all casinos over a period of three years. In passing, I say to the Minister that I think that he will find that there is a difficulty with the clause, which specifically states:

"A licensing authority may resolve not to issue casino premises licences."

It goes on to state:

"In passing a resolution under subsection (1) a licensing authority may have regard to any principle or matter."

The Secretary of State has written on the front of the Bill that she believes that the provisions are compatible with the Human Rights Act 1998, but I suspect that, with the inclusion of that provision, which allows a local council to consider any matter, she will find herself in difficulty. When one lawyer looked at the provision, he said to me, "I see prosperity staring me in the face." I suspect that he is likely to be right.

I accept that a council can reject a proposal for a three-year period, but the problem is that if they want to consider the merits of having a small casino in their area that they think might bring benefits, they will be in much greater difficulty. They will not have the ability easily to say yes or no. As hon. Members have said, the demand test has been rejected. Local authorities will not have powers to talk about public nuisance, as they do in respect of licensing, or to address saturation. Many local authority powers will be undermined, and councils do not have the specific powers to say yes or no to a specific casino proposal, notwithstanding clause 157. As I said, however, I am delighted at the change in use categories that the Secretary of State announced today.

I began my speech by welcoming the goods parts of the Bill: regulating remote gambling, enshrining social responsibility, protecting children and establishing a new and more powerful regulator. Despite those provisions, we still need measures that will control the proliferation of super-casinos, perhaps by allowing one or two per region to start with, and we need to consider delaying the introduction of category A machines until further research has been undertaking; to reintroduce the concept of super-casinos as destination casinos to increase control of them, perhaps by introducing a membership requirement again; and to provide strong and absolute powers to local councils to specifically reject individual casino applications. Only if the Bill contained such measures could we continue supporting it. They are not in the Bill at present, which is why we will vote against it.

Janet Anderson (Labour, Rossendale and Darwen)

The Bill contains three licensing objectives that underpin the functions that the gambling commission and licensing authorities will perform: to protect children and other vulnerable persons from being harmed or exploited by gambling; to prevent gambling being a source of crime or disorder, being associated with crime or disorder or being used to support crime; and to ensure that gambling is conducted fairly and openly. I am astonished by the attitude of the Opposition parties. Whatever they say about parts of the Bill that they support, they cannot have it both ways. If they vote against Second Reading tonight, we can conclude only that they do not support those aims of the Bill.

The third objective—that gambling should be conducted fairly and openly—is surely important. It is a recent development that, to some extent, gambling is hidden away—remote gambling—but it is a growth industry and is an increasingly popular pursuit for women. The Bill recognises and accommodates the significant technological changes that have occurred in the past 40 years. It requires regulation where the player is not present on the operator's premises. For example, operators based in Great Britain must obtain an operating licence to authorise the provision of gambling via remote communication—for example, via television or the internet. Moreover, the new licensing system has quite sensibly been designed to keep pace with technological developments so that, subject to appropriate parliamentary approval, gambling delivered by new, unforeseen methods can be regulated in the future.

That area of gambling is currently unregulated, so for that reason alone doing nothing is not an option. We must ensure that children and young people are properly protected, and the Bill will, for the first time, impose restrictions on such gambling.

My principal interest in the Bill is as a former Minister for Tourism and the current secretary of the all-party parliamentary group on tourism. Our tourism industry is worth a staggering £80 billion to the UK economy, yet our tourism deficit stands at around £14 billion. For every pound spent in the UK by a tourist from overseas, Britons spend £2 abroad. The number of visits abroad by UK residents is approaching three times the number of overseas visits to the UK. There is a desperate need to reverse the trend by offering better value for money and a more innovative product.

That is particularly true of our seaside resorts. As the British Resorts Association pointed out in its excellent report, "Behind the Fac"ade", serious pockets of deprivation are hidden behind the fac"ade of the sea front, because of the seasonal nature of employment and the declining quality of the tourism product on offer. Let us take Blackpool as an example. I make no apology for citing Blackpool. It is situated in my region, the north-west, and many of my constituents know it well. Over the past 15 years it has seen little private investment and no major interventions to ignite regeneration and transform the resort product.

Annual visits have decreased from 13.2 million to 10.6 million, visitor nights from 16 million to 10.5 million, and spending by overnight visitors from £800 million to £500 million. The resort's income profile has become more seasonal, with the summer season becoming shorter and the peak less pronounced. The average annual hotel occupancy rate has fallen to 22 per cent., and more than 20,000 bedrooms have transferred lawfully or unlawfully to the private rented residential sector. I will not dwell too long on the facts about the town as my hon. Friends who represent Blackpool are much more knowledgeable about local circumstances than I am.

I single out Blackpool because the town has risen to the challenge of reinventing its tourism product. The Blackpool master plan proposes a multiple gambling, leisure and entertainment product packaged in a unique "Blackpool experience". This destination gambling environment would import revenue into the local economy, rather than recirculate existing revenue. It would transform a seasonal economy into a year-round economy. It would become the catalyst for economic regeneration that would transform decline into growth and prosperity—

Julie Kirkbride (Conservative, Bromsgrove)

Will the hon. Lady give way?

Janet Anderson (Labour, Rossendale and Darwen)

No, I will not give way because, as the hon. Lady knows, we are short of time.

The economic regeneration would import pounds and euros into the north-west regional economy. The proposals anticipated the Government's decision to modernise outdated gambling legislation and create opportunities to introduce large casino-based leisure experiences to the UK market. The proposals have received wide support from the local community and from all political parties in the town. Opposition Members who have announced their intention to oppose the Bill would do well to remember that. Their colleagues in Blackpool will not thank them for their attempts to derail the legislation.

Let us not get too carried away about the extent to which the plans would be based on casinos. Yes, the proposals for resort, destination or regional casinos, however we choose to describe them, are at the heart of the plan, but casinos represent a mere 8 per cent. of the development. They would, however, provide direct employment for 7,500 people and ignite a resort-wide regeneration programme that would include residential, retail, professional services, leisure and entertainment development, airport expansion and transport infrastructure development, and support about 27,300 jobs.

Blackpool's plans are well advanced. That is one reason why I believe such resorts should be given special consideration, but there is another and perhaps more important reason. Much concern has been expressed that the Bill will result in a proliferation of gambling dens. We must ensure that that does not happen. I therefore welcome the Government's acceptance of the scrutiny Committee's recommendation that the new regional casinos should be limited to 1,250 machines. I also welcome the comments of the Secretary of State and the Minister that the Government are willing to listen.

The Casino Operators Association of the UK has called for a limit to the number of regional casinos, believing that that will help to combat an increase in problem gambling. Blackpool borough council suggests limiting regional casino development to five locations during the first nine years. It also recommends that tourism-based casino developments should be favoured where there is potential to grow net revenue rather than displace and recirculate existing local spending.

The Joint Committee was encouraged by the comments of the Minister, the noble Lord McIntosh, who stated that his Department's policy aim was to reduce the number of premises that can have category A machines to

"limit the accessibility of jackpot machines in order to reduce the potential for problem gambling".

As the Committee stated in its final report:

"We believe the Government is right to proceed with caution",

but it also concluded that the legislation is "necessary and urgent."

I welcome what the Secretary of State said today about a separate use class order. I am sure that that will be widely welcomed. The Bill is broadly a good Bill. I will support it in the Lobby tonight. I urge Opposition Members to think again about their decision to vote against it because, as I said, they need to think carefully about how that will be interpreted outside.

In conclusion, I hope that the Government will agree to think again by limiting the number of larger regional casinos, initially, perhaps to one or two per region, with particular regard to the tourism and regeneration potential. By doing so, they will help to allay a number of the concerns of hon. Members in all parts of the House and reassure the public.

Brian Mawhinney (Conservative, North West Cambridgeshire)

In the 25-plus years in which I have been privileged to be a Member of the House, I have been called many things, particularly during the years that I was privileged to stand at the ministerial Dispatch Box, but until the Secretary of State came along, no one had ever called me a snob. In so doing, she told us more about herself and her attitudes than she informed the House about me.

In the time that is available, I want to put on record the views of some fellow snobs—the Evangelical Alliance, with more than 4,000 church members, the Christian Institute, with hundreds of members, the Methodist Church and the Salvation Army.

I had the privilege of listening to Sir David Frost interview the Secretary of State yesterday, and listening to John Humphrys interview her this morning. She made a point about the need for more regulation—she made it today—with which I agree. However, four questions were repeatedly put to the right hon. Lady that she could not or would not answer. She went on about the Bill being 90 per cent. about protection and only 10 per cent. about casinos. She was asked, perfectly reasonably, "Why don't you split the Bill into two? Do the 90 per cent. regulation, on which there is broad agreement across the Floor of the House and in the country, and then have a separate provision under which the other matters can be dealt with in some detail?" Never once did the right hon. Lady answer that question.

It is not just my question. The Evangelical Alliance says:

"No one disputes that problem gamblers exist. But the Government has no answer to the logic that an increase in the availability of gambling will inevitably increase problem gambling".

Why not separate the two areas of the Bill? Why not put a Bill through Parliament with which all of us can agree, and then deal with the second issue in the longer term?

The second question that the Secretary of State could not or would not answer was the benefit to the Treasury, which has varied from nothing—the right hon. Lady tells us that that was a mistake—to £3 billion. When asked about it she said, "Well, of course, that has got nothing to do with me. That is for the Chancellor of the Exchequer." It is as though she or the Chancellor were semi-detached from the Government. They are both part of the Government; they have collective responsibility. We know that, for internal Labour party reasons, the Government would like the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be seen as semi-detached, but that is not a good enough answer when we come to a fundamental question. If we do not know the tax regime and if we do not know what has been promised to Las Vegas, mega-style casino operators, the Government cannot be surprised if there is general scepticism throughout the country.

The Evangelical Alliance says that

"the initial tone of the draft proposals promised deregulation not regulation. Otherwise why would gambling interests spend an alleged £100 million on lobbying unless they believed they would stand to gain from the proposals?"

The third question put to the Secretary of State by Sir David Frost, by John Humphrys, by my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale) from the Opposition Front Bench and by others, to which the right hon. Lady had no compelling answer, was, "Given this level of concern, why not put a control on the numbers and introduce more stringent planning controls?" The right hon. Lady made a small concession today—it was a small one given the range of planning issues raised by the Bill, but it was welcome. I pay tribute to her for doing so. I wish that I could believe that she had done so because she was persuaded by the logic of the argument rather than because she was trying to entice a few of the Labour Members sitting behind her to go into the Lobby with her this evening.

There is a fundamental disparity. The Secretary of State says, "Don't worry, it will be all right. There will only be 20 to 40 casinos." There is not one regulatory power in the Bill that enables the right hon. Lady to say with confidence that there will be only 20 to 40. There are widespread media reports that so far there are 175 different proposals. When push comes to shove—given some of the people who will be involved in this business, the House should be sure that push will come to shove—20 to 40 casinos seems like so much else that the Government have predicted over the past seven years, and that is pie in the sky. It will not happen. I know that I will not be in this place to be made to eat my words if I am wrong, but I confidently tell the House that over a period 40 casinos will seem but a distant memory of some Secretary of State who was trying, to the best of her ability, to get legislation through the House about which there was considerable concern.

The Christian Institute says:

"The scrapping of the 'demand test' (which currently limits the number of casinos and betting shops) will make it very hard for local councils to reject planning applications. The formal legislation of Fixed Odd Betting Terminals in casinos and betting shops is equally worrying."

That is the third question that the Secretary of State cannot answer and that the Bill does not accommodate.

The fourth question put to the right hon. Lady by Sir David Frost and by John Humphrys—it was put to her in the House today—has still not received an answer. It is that the Bill will increase addiction and gambling problems for real people. I think that this view is shared across the Floor of the House. I take no delight from the fact that there are 300,000 problem gamblers in this country.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Brian Mawhinney (Conservative, North West Cambridgeshire)

No.

None of us takes pride from that figure. It is as certain as day follows night that it will rocket as a consequence of the Bill.

"There is no public demand for an increase in gambling opportunities",

say the Salvation Army and the Methodist Church.

"The national opinion poll commissioned by the Salvation Army showed that 93 per cent. of the population think that there are already enough opportunities to gamble in the UK. Regulations should be brought up to date but there is no appetite for an explosion of hard forms of gambling."

That was the point made by the right hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson), and I join him in affirming that Methodist Church and Salvation Army point.

The Methodist Church and the Salvation Army also said that they

"do not believe that a rise in problem gambling is a price worth paying."

The difficulty about a debate around technology as complex as that included in the Bill is that it is all too easy to lose sight of the real people in real families in real households and in real communities who will be damaged—many of them beyond repair—as a consequence of the Bill.

It used to be said of the Labour party that it was the Methodist Church at prayer. That is no longer the case if the Bill reflects current Labour party thinking. However, in one respect the Bill does go with the flow of new Labour, for its outcome will be gambling problems for the many, not just for the few.

Janet Dean (Labour, Burton)

The Government's aim of protecting those who are vulnerable, as well as children, by introducing the Bill is welcome. The development of new forms of gambling, such as those on the internet and on mobile phones, shows that there is a clear need to update our gambling laws. The new gambling commission will have significant powers to investigate and prosecute where necessary. It will be able to monitor the areas of problem gambling.

There is much that is good in the Bill but I have concerns, which I hope will be addressed during the passage of the Bill. Many jobs in my constituency rely on the gambling industry in one way or another: Uttoxeter is one of the best local race courses in the country and is home to the Midlands grand national, while in Burton upon Trent, the brewing industry has led to the development of not only Marmite, but pub companies and gaming machine companies such as Leisure Link. I am concerned that long-established, home-grown UK businesses should not inadvertently lose out under the Bill.

The likely effect of an unlimited number of regional casinos would be the demise of small casinos. The competitive inequality of machine entitlement and allowing only regional casinos to have category A machines will greatly favour incomers rather than the incumbent UK operators. The potential proliferation of regional casinos, with their unlimited-prize payouts, will bring them too close to centres of population, with the resultant risk of increasing problem gambling. Although I accept that it will be for local authorities to decide whether to allow regional casinos, it will be difficult for them to decline the prospect of financial benefit to their communities.

Representatives of the gaming machine companies have made suggestions to address the concerns expressed by many hon. Members about the potential proliferation of regional casinos. One suggestion is that the number of regional casinos should be restricted. The gaming machine companies have also suggested that the minimum size of the regional casinos should be increased, but that no category A slot machines should be introduced until after the second prevalence study, and then in small numbers only.

The UK gambling industry is used to maximum prizes, and the doors should not be thrown open to the unlimited cash prizes offered by category A machines without a consideration of the consequences. Category B slot machines could carry increased stakes and prizes, in which case we could maintain the principle of controlled stakes and prizes in this country. Such action would protect our home-grown gaming machine companies and the associated jobs in constituencies such as mine.

Another concern is the number of machines that will be allowed in pubs under the Bill. Although the Bill sets a maximum number of two machines by right, with more by application to the local authority, the principle of grandfather rights was established throughout the first drafts of the Bill and the submissions by the Joint Committee. Concerns have been raised because the Bill provides for grandfather rights in premises that are

"primarily for the sale of alcohol".

Does that mean that a country pub that has adapted to serve food and that may rely on the income from machines to remain viable cannot benefit from grandfather rights? What will be the definition of

"primarily for the sale of alcohol"?

The gaming machine industry accepts that machines should be removed from non-licensed premises such as fish and chip shops and taxicab offices to ensure that children do not have access to them. However, I hope that that principle will not extend to premises such as pubs and bowling alleys, which might fall foul of the definition of

"primarily for the sale of alcohol".

The UK has one of the best records on problem gambling and the gambling industry has been kept free from crime since the 1960s. Traditionally, we have had low-stake, low-prize machines in pubs, arcades, betting shops and a small number of casinos. It is therefore ironic that those traditionally well-regulated and socially responsible activities could be hit by the proposals in the Bill, while the Bill, as proposed, will allow an unlimited number of regional casinos with unlimited-stake and unlimited-prize machines.

I hope that Ministers will have regard to the views of home-grown industries such as those based in my constituency and accept that their interest complements the desire to maintain a gambling industry that is free from crime and that maintains its comparatively good record on problem gambling.

John Greenway (Conservative, Ryedale)

I thank the Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale) and the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster) for the tributes that they paid to the Joint Committee's report and to my chairmanship. In turn, may I pay tribute to the Committee and to our excellent Clerks, without whom we would not have been so effective?

I remind the House of my entries in the Register of Members' Interests as a consultant to College Hill, a public relations company whose clients include the Tote. I am also a long-standing adviser to the Institute of Sales Promotion, which supports the objective of stronger enforcement against illegal lotteries, an aspect of the Bill that no one else has mentioned.

Most of the increase in gambling in Britain today is in unregulated, remote gambling on the internet, which, surveys suggest, includes children and young people under 18. That activity is supported by wholesale advertising, which would be illegal for more traditional forms of gambling. That cannot go on. Even fixed-odds betting terminals in betting shops exist because the current law and regulations do not reflect what new technology has made possible.

Had this debate taken place six months ago, our proceedings would have been dominated by concern about betting exchanges, which were associated with allegations of race fixing. Initiatives to improve integrity, which are presently being done voluntarily, must be secured in the longer term with the passage of this Bill. The betting exchanges want such an improvement because they recognise the danger of offshore sites, which give no protection to punters, no prospect of a fair contribution to racing or other sports and unequal treatment between different sorts of betting.

The major gambling charity, Gamcare, welcomes the Bill and supports the Committee's view that

"should the Bill be delayed, or even fail, the volume, availability and complexity of gambling would continue to grow but with no commensurate increase in the services which Gamcare provides."

It knows that protection and prohibition are two different things and that prohibition leads to illegality with no protection at all. Many of our leading charities, including the hospice movement, want the Bill to help to protect the income stream that they enjoy from lotteries. In Committee, hon. Members must pay attention to the reworded provisions on illegal lotteries masquerading as prize competitions.

During our visit to Blackpool, Churches and faith groups told us that they welcome the proposals for resort casinos as a means to create jobs and restore Blackpool's economic fortunes through better hotels, theatres, restaurants and other entertainment. Our visit left us in no doubt about the importance of a proper partnership between the casino operators and the local community in securing genuine and lasting regeneration, which would be undermined by the proliferation of major casino developments in the communities from which Blackpool traditionally draws its visitors.

That danger of proliferation has attracted most of the current criticism. The outcome of our first report was to remove many of the potential dangers in the initial White Paper. The concept of the third category of casino—the regional casino—with a maximum of 1,250 gaming machines also results from the first report. I am disappointed that the Government have not accepted the framework for regional casinos that we offered in our second report, which I still believe provides a sound basis from which to proceed.

A mistaken perception exists that every new casino development will be a Las Vegas-style regional casino, which is not what much of the industry wants or wanted. However, the decision announced in June not to allow existing casinos any entitlement to unlimited-prize category A machines has had the perverse consequence of encouraging UK operators to ratchet up their plans to develop large regional casinos. The Committee saw that coming, which is why we recommended that the Government should not concentrate on limiting the number of casinos with category A machines, but instead should focus on how many of those machines will be available in aggregate, where they will be located and who will operate them.

Are category A machines more harmful? No one knows. They are certainly untested in the UK market, and we need proper research based on their operation. It is not strictly necessary for a regional casino to have 1,250 machines all in category A. As Mr. Tobin Prior of Kerzner Casinos admitted to us,

"there is a misplaced fear that all Category A machines are going to have some amazingly high jackpot which is going to lead to compulsive behaviour which is not borne out in reality. It is not a sustainable business strategy and a mix of lower frequency lower pay out machines will predominate on the gaming floor in the £10,000 to £20,000 pay out category."

The Committee saw those volumes, albeit in euros, during our visit to France. Of course, even a £10,000 payout is five times the £2,000 maximum that is currently available on category B machines in casinos and which the Government intend to retain.

The Government have the opportunity to achieve several objectives by making relatively modest amendments to the Bill. First, as the Committee recommended, they could increase the category B maximum payout to at least £5,000, or perhaps £10,000. That could be done through the regulations. Secondly, they could restrict the number of category A machines in regional casinos to no more than, say, 250—a fifth—with the rest being category B and C. That could be achieved by amending clause 163(3). The Government's decision to limit the number of premises with unlimited-prize category A machines would be preserved, but there would be greater fairness to the existing industry, as well as a removal of much of the incentive in favour of big regional casino developments that might lead to more modest proposals.

However, changes to machine entitlements alone will not be enough to convince a sceptical public that Britain is not about to become the Las Vegas of Europe. I doubt whether there is a market for more than 20 regional casinos over the next 10 years. My preference would be for national strategy to achieve no more than that number, not through a cap in the Bill, but through a planning strategy. The likely locations are already well known, and guidance to regional planning bodies could limit numbers to two casinos per region, with perhaps three or four in London, making 20 in all. That could be achieved through planning policy statement 6. It is essential to prevent anyone from circumventing planning policy by introducing a separate planning category for regional casinos. I warmly welcome the Secretary of State's remarks about that.

Planning guidance needs to err on the side of caution and to reflect the fact that regional super-casinos should not—must not—be located in largely residential areas or be included in mixed-use developments, including new housing. I therefore warmly welcome the Government's decision to allow local councils not to issue any new casino licences in their district. Conservative councillors are now predominant in local government, and I am confident that they will have the wisdom to implement that where appropriate. The Minister may laugh, but I say that because one would think from reading some of the newspapers that they are incapable of making decisions. That is not so. There is a snag, however. If they say no to all casinos, that is fine, but if they say yes to one or two they could end up with significantly more. The Government still have not addressed the danger of the floodgates opening to a larger number and the problems of saturation that that would bring. Such saturation would undermine the statutory objectives of the gambling commission, which should be the focus of everything that we decide to do through the Bill.

The Government, across all Departments, must give priority to the Bill's statutory objectives; otherwise, they will not succeed in what they wish to do. If there is cross-departmental co-operation on the issue of planning and control, there is no reason why the Bill should not succeed in its joint aims of strengthening the protection of children and the vulnerable while allowing new opportunities that are sensibly controlled and robustly regulated.

Eric Illsley (Labour, Barnsley Central)

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway), who made an excellent contribution to the debate. His comments injected a certain sense of reality, especially in relation to the numbers of regional casinos, and highlighted the need for the Bill to be given a Second Reading and allowed to go into Committee, where all the issues can be debated in full.

I shall not detain the House for long, but I should mention at the outset that I am honorary adviser to the northern Licensed Victuallers Association.

One of the problems that many of my hon. Friends have faced in relation to the Bill is that it is based 90 per cent. on regulation and 10 per cent. on new forms of gambling. The obvious worry is that we may give a green light to increasing problem gambling. I was pleased to hear the hon. Member for Ryedale give a sensible explanation of what his Committee has done. We are faced with a situation in which the Bill has become necessary. As many hon. Members said, it is required for the purposes of regulation, especially in relation to remote and internet gambling. We have heard examples of young people being able to access gambling through the internet; that activity appears to be completely unregulated.

I am concerned about regional super-casinos being used for regeneration purposes, especially if we are to end up with 40 of them. I am glad that the hon. Member for Ryedale thinks that there will be a maximum of 20. Leeds is the nearest city to me with a casino. There would be perhaps two or three super-casinos in a city of that size. Leeds could not accommodate that; the demand simply would not be there. Operators would be unlikely to start building these things to compete with each other in a city of that size because they would not want to involve themselves in that amount of competition. I presume that the same would apply in Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham.

David Marshall (Labour, Glasgow Shettleston)

My hon. Friend mentions cities of a comparable size to Leeds. My city of Glasgow, which is one such, already has six casinos, and plans are in the pipeline—two are already in the public domain—for five massive casinos. Far from regenerating the city, they will degenerate it. Does my hon. Friend share my concern about that?

Eric Illsley (Labour, Barnsley Central)

I certainly do. I cannot for the life of me see how a city the size of Glasgow would cope with 11 casinos, five or six of which will be super-casinos. I cannot understand how operators could create so many; it is the economics of madness to suggest that they are likely to want to compete to that extent.

Julie Kirkbride (Conservative, Bromsgrove)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Eric Illsley (Labour, Barnsley Central)

No. I have given way already and will not do so again.

If we use the legislation sensibly we can steer ourselves towards a limit by way of the economic and planning aspects. That is the obvious way in which to achieve a cap—it does not need to be included in the Bill.

I have a great deal of sympathy with hon. Members' comments on regeneration. Casinos may not create huge numbers of jobs in themselves, but other developments such as restaurants and hotels will follow on.

I am worried by the idea of destination casinos. It seems strange that people who want to gamble in, say, south Yorkshire, should have to travel some distance to Blackpool or another such resort to gain access to such places. I would support their being situated in regions around the country, not restricted to seaside locations.

My other points resemble those made by my hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Mrs. Dean) on the so-called grandfather rights of existing establishments in regard to their provision of slot machines. Some organisations are concerned that pubs, clubs and other facilities that provide such machines will be discriminated against due to the increasing value of the new machines being introduced. Many of these organisations believe that they are likely to be regulated and will lose the existing facility to keep their machines. Many clubs—working men's clubs, private members' clubs, and so on—rely on this type of machine for a substantial part of their income and, if the Bill gets into Committee, I would ask hon. Members to examine the effect on existing establishments of the new proposals.

I have noticed in the Bill the provision for reducing the prizes in amusement-with-prizes machines from £8 to £5 and to cap the prizes at that maximum. I have some sympathy with the arguments of those hon. Members who represent seaside constituencies that introducing such a small prize could be a retrograde step. I hope that the House gives the Bill a Second Reading this evening, because there is a lot in it that is essential, and a lot that can be worked out in Committee if we take a sensible approach to it.

Richard Page (Conservative, South West Hertfordshire)

In my office, there are two piles of paper. One is approaching 2 ft high; the other has just gone past the 1 ft barrier. I have not had any matter brought before me in my capacity as a Member of Parliament over the years that has generated so much paper and so much enthusiasm as this legislation and the work that has flowed from it.

I am not a fan of this Government. In fact, I do not trust them too much, and I do not have much faith in them. They have done one thing, however, that has brought great advantages: they have introduced the consultative Committee work on Bills that are going to come before the House. I served on the Joint Committee and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) for the effective way in which he chaired it. He jollied us along with good humour and made sure that there were no conflicts or arguments, and a unanimous report was the result each time. He is to be congratulated on that. The task was made more difficult by the fact that we did not have a full Bill to start with. It came along in dribs and drabs, which illustrates the difficulty that the drafting team at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport had in getting the full Bill to us. Eventually, however, we got it.

The argument as to why we should do something about these issues has been fully made. Those who feel that we should leave things as they are and do nothing are living in cloud cuckoo land. The internet is with us, and there is internet gambling. There is even virtual reality racing, which is one of the saddest things that I have ever seen in my life, but some people must bet on it. We also have betting exchanges. These are reasons why we have to have the Bill, but we need considerably greater assurance than we have had so far.

Out there in the world, there is an immense income to be made from betting and gaming. If this country has the right regulations, we will get that world business. Without that control, however, we will lose it. It is far better that those regulations should be controlled in this country through the integrity that comes from our laws; if they were, it would be of benefit to everyone and we could go forward.

The Gaming Board has done a very good job over the years, but technology has moved on, and we have to move on. The gambling commission is required, and the sooner it comes into force the better. I hope that the Government will make available sufficient money to enable it to be up and running when the Bill becomes law. One reason why we need these changes is that, for the first time, betting exchanges can trace a bet right the way through the piece. They can find out who put the money on, and to see that there is an integrity in gambling. That has not been the case before. However, they need the resources to be able to follow that up. In the past, the Jockey Club, for example, has not had the resources to enable it to do this vital work, so we welcome the proposals on that issue.

Along with everyone else, I welcome the setting up of support for problem gamblers. My only objection is to the exciting name for the organisation in question: the Responsibility in Gambling Trust does not exactly trip off the tongue, although I very much welcome the fact that it is to be chaired by Sir David Durie, who was a very effective official at the Department of Trade and Industry when I was there.

Concerns about the whole question of gambling have been expressed today and, for me, this boils down to the argument about freedom of choice versus state diktat. There are close similarities between these arguments and those relating to the production and sale of alcohol. The role of the state is surely to ensure that the activity is properly regulated and to provide care and help for those who cannot cope. The Responsibility in Gambling Trust will be able to do that well, because it will have the advantage of funding and the ability to introduce a statutory levy if required. I am very much in favour of the setting up of the new trust.

There has been a lot of confusion about category A machines. People have the idea that there are going to be 1,250 such machines in each of the resort casinos, but that is absolutely untrue. There will be a range of machines. Not everyone will want to put in £5, £2 or whatever, to try to win £3 million. There will not be 1,250 machines designed for that in every casino; there will be a range of machines.

We must also look carefully at the existing casinos and raise their limits considerably, because we do not want them to ratchet up their operations to try to become destination casinos in their own right. That would bring about a huge proliferation in gambling. We put £1 on the lottery to try to win several million. I see no difference between that and allowing the smaller casinos to have much larger limits on their payouts. People know that if they put in their £1, they are more likely to win £10 than £10 million. That is common sense.

In the short time that I have left, I want to talk about the present media frenzy. The Government have only themselves to blame in this regard. The Joint Committee that scrutinised the Bill in its draft form made it abundantly clear that the Government had not got their act together on national guidance for regional leisure and destination casinos. The DCMS had one set of priorities, the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister had another, and the Treasury was, as usual, lurking in the background with its own aims and objectives. Our report highlighted those conflicts, but unfortunately, they have not been adequately resolved. In our final submission to the Government, we said:

"While we acknowledge the Government's reluctance to publish national guidance relating specifically to regional leisure/destination casinos, we believe that it could help to ensure a consistent approach between regional authorities and avoid the need for applications to be called in".

In their response, the Government said that they accept

"that national planning policy guidance should, where it is appropriate, deal with casinos . . . and the two joint statements already provide a comprehensive policy framework."

That is not strictly true; it is misleading and I believe that it is completely responsible for the situation that we find ourselves in today. That is why the Government have the wrath of the media on their head, and why a great many hon. Members are so concerned. The confusion over the location and number of casinos likely to be built is just one of the consequences of that. Inadequate guidance offered over planning policies and lack of detail over the prospective regulatory regime have led to wild statements in the press and widespread public concern.

The Secretary of State has already made some concessions. Those may not be enough, however. The long-standing confusion remains. In 2003, the Government were claiming that the market would determine the location, number, size and character of casinos. In June this year, they were saying that their strategy was

"based upon the direction of regional casinos to the most suitable areas."

That is a U-turn in anyone's language.

I do not believe that the contradictions in the Government's position have yet been adequately resolved. On the one hand, they have been arguing since the summer that

"a relatively low number of regional casinos"

is likely, even though The Times revealed on Saturday that at least 41 out of the 172 casinos currently being planned will fall into that category. The Secretary of State has said that local authorities can say no. But what happens if local authorities say yes, yes and yes? What will control the numbers and the applications that come through?

In the event of conflicts between regional planning bodies or development agencies and local authorities, I can see that the decision will end up being taken in the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister—the very thing that Ministers have said consistently that they do not want to happen. I am afraid that it is order, counter-order and disorder. I return to the issue of lack of trust—this Government cannot be trusted on this matter. I cannot agree to a flood of casinos, and until I see the specifics of protection on numbers in relation to regional policy, I regret that I must vote against the Bill.

Joan Humble (Labour, Blackpool North and Fleetwood)

First, I very much welcome the Bill, which will offer protections for children and the vulnerable, set up the gambling commission, and introduce all the modern regulation that is needed in today's gambling industry. People have been debating this Bill as if it existed in a vacuum—as if the world has not changed. Well, the world has changed since the last piece of legislation on the matter in 1968. We must have this Bill, with all its regulations and protections.

Later in my speech, I will raise some of my specific concerns about regional casinos, but the debate should not be hijacked by such concerns, and unless we give this Bill a Second Reading, all its good aspects will be lost. Many Members who have said that they will vote against Second Reading have also anticipated later discussions and put in bids for aspects that they want changed. To me that is illogical. It is not the stance that we should take.

The nature of Second Reading debates means that we tend to gloss over the aspects of a Bill that we like, and concentrate on those areas about which we have concerns. The Minister will not therefore be entirely surprised if I mention one or two matters that will need further consideration as the Bill proceeds.

First, I have been contacted by some bingo operators in Blackpool who are concerned about section 21 games and whether they will continue to be allowed to offer them, as they are not games of equal chance, as set out in the legislation. Equally, they have drawn my attention to mechanical cash bingo, which they think will be caught by the new machine classification. Finally, they are concerned about the issue of retaining roll-overs so that they can generate high prizes, which was proposed by Budd, and confirmed in the White Paper, but is not mentioned in the Bill. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will consider that kind of detail.

We have heard some interesting contributions about regional casinos this evening and I want to concentrate on how they could be harnessed for regeneration purposes. I was reassured when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that she expected only 20 to 40 regional casinos to be built. But why does she expect only 20 to 40, how does she expect that, and where does she expect them to be? There are some genuine concerns about proliferation.

Andy Reed (Labour/Co-operative, Loughborough)

Is not the crux of the matter that regional super-casinos could be regulated through planning or other measures, and that such measures could be introduced in Committee? Tonight, therefore, we should give the Bill its Second Reading, and concentrate all our efforts on making sure that we prevent such super-casinos from being created. As the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) suggested, powers are available to do that.

Joan Humble (Labour, Blackpool North and Fleetwood)

I can throw away the rest of my speech, as that is exactly what I will suggest to the Minister.

I have talked to my constituents in Blackpool about the development of what were originally resort casinos, what they would prefer to be destination casinos, and what are currently called regional casinos. Interestingly, they would only want them in the town if they were part of a genuine regeneration effort. Blackpool council is to be applauded, as it conducted an extensive consultation exercise back in 2002, as did our local newspaper, The Gazette, and people were fairly evenly split on whether they were in favour of resort casinos coming to Blackpool. When they were asked about the regeneration potential, however, the number of those in favour went up markedly.

The other question is: what do we mean by regeneration? No definition of regeneration has been offered and I would urge both Ministers in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and their colleagues in the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister to provide one. To me, regeneration means attracting new jobs, new schools and new opportunities, and it must be part of a much wider package. We cannot just build developments—development and regeneration are different. New regional casinos are different from swimming pools, ice rinks or velodromes, which can just be deposited in areas of a town or city—casinos are large complexes offering entertainment 24 hours a day, with large high-value jackpot machines. They are major enterprises and must be part of a much larger plan to achieve the regeneration for which my constituents would look.

The Government are relying on regional planning organisations through their regional spatial strategies, but I must ask the Minister whether that is enough. In the north-west, I am pleased that the regional development agency, the regional assembly and the Government office for the north-west have come together and commissioned a research paper, from which they will develop an interim policy framework, which will help inform their regional spatial strategy. Are other regions doing the same? What happens if individual policy framework documents conflict with each other? How will the RSS interact in different regions? The Government should consider developing a national policy framework within which regional planning bodies can operate. If we are given a definition of regeneration, we can all work from it, and the process will offer transparency.

I was going to mention concerns about use class orders, but I am pleased about the Secretary of State's announcement earlier, and her statement about pulling together a policy document before new casinos are allowed. There was a real fear that some casino developers would take advantage of the lack of existing planning rules, and sneak in their proposals via local authorities that would welcome whatever money they could get. I spent 12 years in local government, yet I find myself saying—for perhaps the first time in this place—that local authorities should not necessarily have that key role, because it could lead to a proliferation of large casinos. There must be a national strategy and a regional perspective, but of course, it is local authorities that could and should consult their local communities, and which understand them best.

But even if the RSS worked properly, if agreement were then reached at regional level to have as many as seven large regional casinos in each area, 90 per cent. of people in this country would be half an hour away from such a casino. How can regeneration be achieved on the back of that? We must also consider concerns about the resulting proliferation of gambling. If those who might be addicted to gambling are half an hour away from a large regional casino, the dangers associated with such addiction will be greatly increased. Some in Blackpool have argued to the Joint Committee that destination casinos can address that problem. When people have to travel further, they plan how they are going to spend their time and money. That would be a much better system, and hopefully it would address some of the concerns that many Members have expressed.

If we can deal with planning and look again at destination casinos, we can allay many fears and build on what local communities want. My hon. Friends have been waiting for me to mention Blackpool—[Interruption.] And Fleetwood. Blackpool is unique among local authorities and it is still the premier resort in the country. It has spent five years developing a strategic master plan that incorporates not only casinos, but other businesses and the public and private sectors. It is also looking to expand airports and other transport mechanisms. It is into precisely such settings that regional casinos should be placed to enhance what resorts have to offer and provide jobs for local communities and a better tourism product.

Surely we should be using the Bill to link RDAs' regeneration plans, regional tourism strategies and local government frameworks. The report shows that Blackpool—

Alan Haselhurst (Deputy Speaker, Saffron Walden)

Order.

Teddy Taylor (Conservative, Rochford and Southend East)

The hon. Member for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood (Mrs. Humble) expressed fairly and clearly the dangers that many of us feel could arise from regional casinos. The most worrying aspect of this debate is that neither the Government nor anyone else have made a convincing case as to why we require such casinos at all; nor have they explained convincingly that we can be certain that casinos will not impact adversely on communities.

We need to look at the evidence in considering the unwelcome and unreasonably optimistic view that this proposition will somehow bring great benefits. Some 25 years ago, the inhabitants of Atlantic City, in New Jersey, were told that wonderful things would happen if they went in for the big casinos. They were told that things would be terrific—that what was a pleasant and prosperous little place would become very exciting. In fact, in the first nine years following their introduction, crime rose not by 10 or 20 per cent., but by 107 per cent. Businesses closed down all over the place, and the number of hotels reduced dramatically. Where before there were 2,100 hotels and businesses in Atlantic City, now, only 60 independent hotels remain. Unemployment, far from disappearing, got into a bad way. In 2002, unemployment in New Jersey as a whole was running at only 3.8 per cent., but in Atlantic City it was 9.9 per cent. What was promised to be great proved not to be great at all.

Why on earth are we doing this, and if we are going to do it, why not try out such casinos in one place—Blackpool, for example—to see what the impact is? My fear is that we will do enormous damage to existing casinos. I represent Southend-on-Sea, which has three casinos. I was not terribly happy when the first one came, but in fairness, thanks to the activities of the current and previous Governments, gambling in Britain is run in a remarkable way, and more sensibly and properly than in almost any other country. As someone who lives locally and who travels quite a bit, I have not received a single complaint about any of the three casinos, except for complaints from two people who claimed that they had been excluded from them because of bad behaviour. Those casinos operate on the basis that people cannot simply walk in. They have to be members and to apply for membership 24 hours beforehand, and if they do not follow the rules they can be excluded.

I hope that the Government realise that thanks to their efforts and those of the previous Government, we have an extremely good system that works very well indeed and produces a great deal of employment and growth. The gaming and betting industry employs 82,000 people, and last year it generated an income of £1.76 billion. It is a big industry that works extremely well. I hope that the Government will say whether they have given any thought to the impact on existing casinos—of which there are many—of these dramatic new regional casinos. Such casinos are huge and will cost a fortune. If they offer massive prizes from their wonderful machines—one Member congratulated the Government on ensuring that they will contain only 1,250 such machines—the effect on existing casinos could be devastating. That does not seem sensible. Why on earth are we going for such a major change without trying it out first?

Some people will say that there are those who always object to change and who are unduly pessimistic. But we should try out such casinos in one place to see what their impact is. Will they help to revive communities and bring new and exciting prospects, or will they damage existing businesses? My fear, as a pessimist, is that it is not a good idea. If we go ahead with what are a substantial number of regional casinos, the effect could be devastating. Of course, they could also increase the amount of gambling; indeed, in order to pay for the new premises, there would have to be a huge increase in gambling.

I am sorry that this is not a free-vote issue. Most Members to whom I speak—from all parts of the House—think this a very unusual move. I hope that the Government will endeavour to give us a reason why we should go ahead with this plan, and to explain why it would not be better to try out such casinos in one area, to see what the implications are. My fear is that, as often happens, the long-term effect could be very serious, and one that we will live to regret.

There is one more point that I wish briefly to make, concerning the Bill's impact on existing operations in Southend. Like many seaside towns, Southend has lots of arcades. The impression that I gained was that under the proposed minor changes, young people would not be able to use certain machines. Such a proposal seemed very unusual indeed. Apparently, young people were to be prevented from using category D machines, such as cranes that grab toys, coin pusher games involving 10p and 2p coins, and redemption machines that issue tickets as prizes.

The Government then explained that those activities would not be prevented, but that they wanted reserve powers, which could be brought in, if necessary. I wonder whether the Government think that that is sensible. How would they like to run a business employing many people and spending much money, if all the time they were subject to the danger of a Government bringing in new regulations that could put them out of business? It seems to me that that is a daft proposal and that it should be scrapped in Committee.

I apologise to Members for going on far too long [Hon. Members: "No."], but I hope that both sides of the House can agree that the proposal for regional casinos could be madness and could be daft. It could do great damage if we go ahead with those casinos without careful and precise planning. Why not have a trial operation before we make the great change? I believe that that provides the best way forward.

Anthony Wright (Labour, Great Yarmouth)

First, I want to express my admiration for the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway), who chaired the Joint Committee.

Over the past few weeks, considerable criticism— some justified, some not—has surrounded the publication of the Bill. I was a member of the pre-legislative scrutiny Committee and I certainly found the whole exercise very positive in helping to create, by and large, a good Bill. I remain cautious, however, about some of the Bill's provisions and I will want amendments in certain areas before I give it my wholehearted support.

One of the criticisms is that the Bill is being rushed through, but I do not accept that. To counter it, I would say that, over the past 30 or 40 years, the gambling laws have been tidied as deemed necessary at the time. For instance, when casinos were first permitted in the early 1960s there were more than 1,000 of them, but serious problems about their legitimacy led to their being regulated and reduced to a realistic number soon afterwards. According to Library statistics, we now have some 131 casinos.

Another review was conducted at the time of the Gaming Act 1968, but it was not until the mid-1990s that it became apparent that serious reform was required. Indeed, it could be said that the Gambling Bill before us now was initiated in 1996 by the Gaming Board's call for substantial reform of the 1968 Act. In March 1997, the then Conservative Government were in the process of significant deregulation of the casino industry via two deregulation orders, which were introduced to avoid the need for primary legislation. It is worth noting that a significant element of those orders was to increase the number of casinos in the UK by 21 without primary legislation, so I am surprised by the Leader of the Opposition's current stance, especially given that he was Home Secretary at the time.

The Bill clearly provides more protection for the vulnerable and children while allowing for a more regulated industry, coupled with possible regeneration of many areas of the UK. The safeguards and benefits have largely been absent from previous reforms. Fortunately, the general election stopped the Conservatives' proposals for 21 more casinos being passed without the proper scrutiny of primary legislation, hence the Bill before us today.

After the election, the Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth), announced that there would be no change in respect of permitted areas and their extension, but did accept that minor changes, such as the ability to join a casino by post, were acceptable. The Gaming Board still urged major reform, spurred mainly by technological progress and by people's ability to gamble in a less regulated and protected environment through the relatively new betting exchanges, remote gambling and betting on horse racing via TV from the comfort of their own homes. In other words, we were in an era of 24-hour, seven-days-a-week gambling, much of which was unregulated.

When the Gaming Act was enacted in 1968, none of those technologies was available. The original scope of the Act addressed the issues very well, but the industry has moved on. I was pleased, therefore, when, in 1999, the Home Secretary announced the setting up of an independent review body to look into all aspects of the gambling industry, which led to the publication of the Budd report in 2001. After significant consultation, the pre-legislative scrutiny Committee was formed last year and reported earlier this year, leading to the Bill before us today. I certainly do not intend to go into too much detail, as many right hon. and hon. Members either have, or will, raise their particular issues of concern. I intend to be brief to allow other hon. Members to express their views.

The concept of resort, regional or destination casinos, as the Committee wanted to call them, provides an opportunity for the regeneration of many areas of the UK, particularly seaside resorts, by enabling local authorities to make gains from section 106 moneys for other add-on facilities. However, the number of casinos must be restricted: it is no good allowing market forces to dictate how many and where they will be put. There must be an element of direction, and I suggest that a maximum of two resort casinos in each region would be more than enough, as they would represent a fair geographical spread of the investment. Perhaps as an interim measure, we could restrict the number to one per region.

That investment would result from regional planning bodies being able to determine the permitted areas, taking into account the regional economic strategy and, just as importantly, discussion and consultation with the local planning body and the local community. If we allow market forces to determine the location of resort casinos, without a regional spread, I will certainly have to consider whether I can support this part of the Bill.

Another area of concern that directly affects my constituency and those of many other hon. Members are the new restrictions on existing family amusement centres, which have been an integral part of the British seaside resort for many years. I can remember when I was a child visiting the amusement arcades during the summer months. Even then, anyone under 14 was summarily kicked out by the attendant for being under age—not that I was, of course, I hasten to add.

In my view, the British Amusement and Catering Trades Association's code of conduct protects children, who will not, I believe, face any more risk of becoming problem gamblers under the Bill. Currently, children under 16 have to be accompanied by an adult, which provides even more insurance that such venues will not turn children into the problem gamblers of tomorrow. I am sure that there will be some isolated cases against that argument, but the experience and knowledge that I have gained from having lived in Great Yarmouth all my life lead me to believe that these centres are an accepted, well regulated and necessary part of the British seaside resort.

Another matter of concern is the restriction to be placed on family amusement centres, which could reduce their viability. Members of the Joint Committee visited Blackpool and Great Yarmouth and found that one problem relates to category D machines and the new definition of "amusement with prizes". It is proposed to lower prizes to a maximum of £5 instead of the current £8, and to reduce the maximum stake for cash machines to 10p from the current 30p maximum. There is no evidence to suggest that problems are being created for children or for whoever plays these machines. I would certainly welcome funding for a report to look further into that matter. Another issue is the protection of existing amusement centres through "grandfather rights"—a matter of great concern to many working in the industry at seaside resorts. Those and other issues must be dealt with in Committee.

Overall, it would be foolish for us not to agree with many of the measures that the Bill will introduce. Recent negative press reports have whipped up hysteria based on fears rather than facts and have done no service to the debate on a serious issue. Indeed, comments from across the spectrum—from the industry itself to the charities that deal with problem gamblers—have welcomed many of the Bill's proposals, which in some cases give real protection to the vulnerable in our society and to children for the first time. The critics tell us that if the Bill goes through, it will create another "Australian model" with a huge increase in problem gambling, when the truth is that there is more chance of the Australian model coming to the UK if the Bill fails.

I have already outlined some of the changes that I want, and other changes will follow. I am confident that we will end up with a Bill that not only delivers what the Gaming Board asked for back in 1996–97—more protection for children and the vulnerable—but takes into account much of the technological advance that we have seen since. It will also provide real opportunities for regeneration. I shall support the Bill on Second Reading, but I will press for amendments on the issues that I have highlighted—unless, of course, the Tories and Liberals have their way and stop the Second Reading. In that case, there will be no Bill and no further protection for children and the vulnerable from such problems as internet gambling.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

My colleagues and I will vote against Second Reading for the reasons set out in our reasoned amendment. I want to say something about the tenor of the Bill, and the philosophy behind it, that is more personal than political.

I find the Bill deeply unsatisfactory. I intend no disrespect to the Joint Committee, which did a good job of scrutinising the Government's proposals and the Budd report. It is dispiriting that we have a Government who set out a vision of being a world leader in all fields of gambling activity, because it shows poverty of imagination and leadership.

One thing that we have not acknowledged in the debate so far is the harm that gambling does to society and to families throughout the country. We have mentioned the 300,000 problem gamblers as though they were some select group of people whom we can put to one side and treat separately. Gambling pervades society, and it harms society.

Governments are no longer prepared to tolerate the harm caused by alcohol and tobacco, yet the Government are prepared to be lobbied and bullied into extending and facilitating gambling, which is very dispiriting and unfortunate. The mothers and fathers of socialism would find it particularly dispiriting. It is not patronising, elitist or snobbish to stand up and say that gambling harms society and the poor and the working class disproportionately—indeed, when one did so it used to be called socialism and fighting for one's class and a better society. Now, the Government are smuggling through the back door a change in regulation that will control and alter the way in which we run society, which is very unfortunate.

It is also deeply dispiriting that the Government's vision of the regeneration of our seaside towns is based on making money from gambling—from a mug's game, by fleecing people. We are considering regeneration not based on education, skills, manufacturing, libraries or culture but built on gambling. What a lack of imagination. What a poor state we are in when the only thing we can offer our decaying seaside towns, including some in my constituency, is regeneration based on gambling and on taking from those who do not have and giving it to those who have plenty.

People talk of reality and say, "Support the Bill. It's only 20 or 40 super-casinos—nothing much." The reality is that gambling is already growing exponentially. Last year alone, 12 million people gambled via the red button on the Sky interactive service. Gambling is being introduced into our homes, making it easier than ever before to participate. Before long, it will be possible to gamble on a mobile phone. [Hon. Members: "It is now."] Perhaps it is; it is not something that I use. Where are the controls on young people's access to that? There is increasing evidence that suicide, bankruptcy and domestic violence have risen in towns and cities where casinos have opened.

The Government say that the purpose of the Bill is to regulate the growth in remote, online gambling, but the basic question is whether such gambling should be happening in the first place—whether it is good for society. Any Government, and certainly the House of Commons, should be asking that question. Should we not be thinking of different ways to tackle the problem? We live in a society where debt is increasing by £1 million every four minutes. While I am on my feet for my 10-minute speech, there will be a £2.5 million increase in personal debt in this country.

Tony Banks (Labour, West Ham)

Sit down then.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

No doubt personal debt will increase even more if the hon. Gentleman gets his way and makes a speech, as people are driven out to gamble.

Gambling is founded on misery and on broken dreams for many, and it is a broken dream for a Government to promote it. Let us look at some of the parts of the Bill. We are told that we will see only 20 to 40 super-casinos, but that is a margin of error of 100 per cent. I cannot trust such figures. We are talking about a 1 or 2 per cent. margin in the US presidential election, so why should we trust a margin of 100 per cent.? If the gates have opened, I have no doubt that lobbyists will force the legislation through. Super-casinos will do for gambling what super-pubs have done for binge drinking. They will increase gambling rates and the amount of problem gambling. Allowing super-casinos to provide some form of regeneration is like expecting supermarkets to regenerate our town centres—it ain't going to happen.

The Government talk about a triple lock on the development of super-casinos. From what I see in the Bill, that lock will be about as effective as a Krooklok on a dodgy Ford Escort in an unlit car park. There needs to be considerable strengthening of regulation of super-casinos. In particular I want local authorities to be able to say no, not for three years before facing court cases, pressure and lobbying, but on behalf of their populations and for it to mean no. I want membership of casinos to remain a requirement, although perhaps not 24-hour membership. I do not want alcohol to be served at gaming tables, because that befuddles people's minds and leads to more betting. Lines of credit should not be offered in super-casinos either. That would merely facilitate people's reliance on gambling. We should look again at grandfather rights, too. Perhaps we shall have an indication of that happening.

Online betting is growing. I know that because I received some spam e-mail from The Daily Telegraph on Friday, which said:

"Dear Simon, Try your hand at fantasy poker today. If the image of smoky back rooms and high-stakes are putting you off playing poker, then playing online might be just right for you . . .

Online poker rooms offer a safe environment to learn and practise.

Online poker rooms suit women well"—

I do not know why the e-mail was sent to me—

"they are encouraged by the low stakes and low commitment. Women's personality traits give them an advantage in poker."

There is no way that The Daily Telegraph could have known in sending me that e-mail, encouraging me to link to an online gambling site, that I was over 18 years old. Instead of asking whether we should regulate such betting, we should be asking ourselves whether it should be possible at all. At the moment, online gambling based on a UK website is illegal. Perhaps we should keep it that way. People would not lose their money online—fine. We should not be making it easier for people to gamble in that way.

I want also to address the problem of lotteries, because the Bill could have an effect on good-cause lotteries. I have been contacted by Ty Hafan children's hospice in Wales, which is concerned about pseudo-lotteries—the sort of thing on television that plays a video of Robbie Williams singing "Radio" and invites people to phone in at £1.50 a minute to name his latest single. That is supposed to be a competition; that is a lottery.

Chris Ruane (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

What is it?

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

"Radio". I have just mentioned it; the hon. Gentleman was not listening. Such prize-based competitions that are heavily promoted on television are a form of gambling. The Bill addresses that, but I want to ensure that it makes such gambling much more difficult to engage in.

We heard from the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Mr. Wright) about family and holiday centres. I share some of his concerns about places such as Quay West in my constituency where gaming is not the primary purpose. We need to see what happens. The Joint Committee suggested that an evidence-based report be commissioned on what happens when children enter such places. I agree with that suggestion.

The Bill represents a return to Victorian values—that is the pattern that is emerging. The Licensing Act 2003 promoted binge drinking, and this Bill promotes easy gambling. We will see what happens about smoking. It is curious that the Government are thinking of banning smoking around gaming tables while making it easier to gamble. That shows that the nanny state has got its knickers in a twist.

The Secretary of State is dealing the cards of regulation and asking us to look at what is being done to protect children under the Bill—her card trick—but we should be looking at the magicians' cabinet behind her. In there lies the spectre of more gambling, more problems and more harm to society. I very much hope that a true socialist, a true Labour person and anyone who believes in a better society will reject the Bill tonight.

Alan Haselhurst (Deputy Speaker, Saffron Walden)

Order. May I say to hon. Members who are desirous of catching my eye that it would be useful if they stood to speak in their usual places?

Win Griffiths (Labour, Bridgend)

I approach the debate in something of a dilemma. I am sorry that I did not pay more attention to what was happening during pre-legislative scrutiny. I have a seaside resort in my constituency and, when Mr. Budd's report was first published, I wrote a piece for one of my local papers in which I stated that I did not believe that the Budd concept of mega-casinos would help in the regeneration of a seaside town in south Wales. After examining the Bill last week I wrote another article, which was for Labour party members. It stated that I did not believe that the proposals for super-casinos in the Bill would help to regenerate Porthcawl or any other town in my constituency.

Lindsay Hoyle (Labour, Chorley)

Does my hon. Friend believe that we would benefit from trials of perhaps four super-casinos, in, for example, Blackpool, which has an airport, and that they should constitute the only trials in the country?

Win Griffiths (Labour, Bridgend)

I have signed the early-day motion that proposed a trial, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) tabled. Four is excessive. Ideally, we should not have super-casinos at all, but if the Government genuinely want to test the concept let us go for it in one resort, perhaps two in extremis. I am a Methodist and my Church suggested to me that there are many good things in the Bill, for example, regulating new forms of betting and strengthening some of the regulation on existing forms. However, when I listened to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, I had the feeling that the Government would not change their minds about some of the provisions to which I would support significant change. For example, although it is not acceptable to me, some hon. Members would accept a cap of 20 to 40 mega-casinos. I would not accept that, but the Government were not even prepared to accept the need for a cap.

I find myself in the position of supporting the better regulation of new and existing forms of gambling but totally opposing anything that would allow mega-casinos to get a toe hold in the United Kingdom. It is as though a farmer had decided to repair all the fences in his field to protect his animals, but simultaneously decided to make a huge gap in all the better hedges to allow the animals to roam wherever they please.

I am moving towards voting against Second Reading. My original idea was to make a speech and say that the Bill contained good provisions that must be supported, others that were terrible and that I could not support, but that it should be allowed to proceed to Committee and, if the changes that I supported were not accepted, I would vote against Third Reading. However, from what I have heard this evening the prospect of significant change in Committee is diminishing.

I have been a Member of Parliament for some years and I know how Committees are composed. The idea of the Government appointing a majority of Members who want the changes that I support will not be realised. While I remain on the horns of a dilemma, I must tell my right hon. Friend the Minister for Sport and Tourism that I am inclining towards voting against Second Reading.

The polls on whether sufficient gambling opportunities exist show that most people believe that they do. Most people also believe that if we provide further gambling opportunities, we will create further gambling problems. When we consider the aid that is available through voluntary effort—organisations such as Gamblers Anonymous and GamCare do fantastic work—and the pitiful contribution of Governments to that since we have had casino gambling, I have to take with a pinch of salt the letters that I have read about how the industry will put money into trying to counsel people who experience problems to ensure that they do not become problem gamblers. The efforts that are made to tackle problem drinking are inadequate and getting worse rather than better. Even if the proposals are tweaked here and there, they will result in gambling problems for more people.

The fixed-odds betting terminals are a disaster in that they encourage people to bet. We will allow them, if not to proliferate, to be available in plenty of places with a modicum of regulation.

Mark Tami (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

A figure of 300,000 is used for the number of problem gamblers. Does my hon. Friend agree that not only they but their families are affected and that the problem is perhaps greater than it is presented?

Win Griffiths (Labour, Bridgend)

Yes. To those 300,000-plus people, one has to add at least three or four family members who are damaged by the process. Beyond that, others are affected. I am therefore sceptical about our ability to say, "Look, we're only acting like mature adults in giving people an opportunity to gamble in regulated circumstances. We'll make sure that they won't get into any severe gambling problems." The evidence is to the contrary.

I am surprised—having been on the fringe of developments and given the amount of pre-legislative scrutiny that the draft Bill received—that so many people are dissatisfied with the final product. Perhaps the Government have been searching for compromises and, in trying to satisfy everybody, have satisfied nobody except those who want the mega-casinos.

Kate Hoey (Labour, Vauxhall)

I share my hon. Friend's concern about the vote. Does he agree that, given the all-round support for many aspects of the Bill, the Government could solve the difficulty by withdrawing the provision on the mega-casinos, thus allowing the regulation provisions to have all-party support and progress through the House quickly?

Win Griffiths (Labour, Bridgend)

That is a brilliant idea, which I would happily support. If the Government said that they had decided to do that in fairness to the views expressed, I would be happy. Pigs may fly and I am waiting. However, at the moment I am veering towards voting against Second Reading. Earlier, I thought that I would vote to allow it to proceed to Committee, but the possibility of genuinely significant change appears to diminish as the night goes on.

Julie Kirkbride (Conservative, Bromsgrove)

It gives me great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mr. Griffiths). I agree with his views and he amply articulated the reasons why Her Majesty's Opposition will vote against Second Reading. They will do that for many of the reasons that he outlined.

I am delighted to be called to speak because the Bill heralds one of the most profound social changes in our society that I have witnessed in my seven years as a Member of Parliament. I am therefore pleased to put my arguments on the record and I shall be equally pleased, if I am chosen, to serve in Committee.

Many Members, including the Secretary of State, have given personal freedom to gamble as a good reason for the Bill. In fact, the United Kingdom already has liberal, adult, fair and reasonable gaming laws that have stood the test of time, as is shown by the fact that, in relative terms, we have fewer gambling addicts than other jurisdictions. It is possible to win many millions of pounds on the lottery. It is possible to put any amount on a horse at a bookmaker's and—in the case of those lucky enough to pick all the right horses—to win many hundreds of thousands of pounds. There are plenty of opportunities to gamble, and that includes casinos, of which there are already 130. I see no overwhelming reason to change the gambling laws more profoundly than they have been changed already, and my view is strongly supported by the results of public opinion polls.

Many Members, including the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) and my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Cambridgeshire (Sir Brian Mawhinney), have suggested that we can all agree with 90 per cent. of the Bill. I hope the Minister listens, because much of what he wishes to do is very relevant. The Bill could have a fair passage through both Houses if he chose to proceed with that 90 per cent. rather than the 10 per cent. that relates to the casino industry. I fear that he will not listen tonight, but given the House's expectation of a general election next year and a possible clearing of the decks by March, when the shutters come down the 90 per cent. may well go through on the nod and the 10 per cent. may well be dropped. It is a shame that so much engagement must take place on measures that I think are unlikely to be passed.

Lindsay Hoyle (Labour, Chorley)

rose—

Julie Kirkbride (Conservative, Bromsgrove)

Does my hon. Friend wish to intervene?

Lindsay Hoyle (Labour, Chorley)

The hon. Lady's hon. Friend is very pleased that she has given way. She is opposed to 10 per cent. of the Bill, but—although this relates to that 10 per cent.—may I ask whether she would accept one or two super-casinos on a trial basis?

Julie Kirkbride (Conservative, Bromsgrove)

I am happy to pre-empt my speech. I would prefer one super-casino on a trial basis, although I would probably accept two. I would like to take the argument further, but I am happy to give a direct answer to a direct question.

Let me now focus on my disagreements with the Government. The main one relates to their argument that their principal aim is to protect children. I do not think that it stacks up. At Question Time, the Secretary of State failed to answer my question about how the Bill would benefit children. In fact, the Department has done no research that shows what harm is done to them by the existing gaming laws. I see no reason to prevent fish and chip shops and cab firms from retaining their modest slot machines offering a £5 payout for a 10p stake. Local authorities already have the right to ban machines from such premises, but they do not choose to do so. Why are the Government choosing to do it now? This seems a vindictive measure, given that it will affect small businesses that work hard to make a profit.

The Government claim that they want to regulate the internet in order to protect children, but as they cannot regulate internet sites outside the UK's jurisdiction, there is no real argument for that either.

I am particularly worried about the possible effect on seaside slot machine arcades. Many seaside communities already face serious economic challenges, and such arcades do no obvious harm to children. I remember gambling in them as a child—and I assure the Minister that I am not a gambler now by any stretch of the imagination. We are talking about a harmless pursuit that promotes economic activity in seaside resorts. The Minister denies that there would be a problem, but there is a problem: his intention to put a black spot on seaside arcades by creating a power that could shut them down overnight. Any seaside arcade owner thinking of investing in gaming machines will be deeply worried, not just by that part of the Bill, but by measures to cut the stake to be levied and the value of the potential prize. I hope very much that the Minister will think again.

Kate Hoey (Labour, Vauxhall)

rose—

The rest of the debate is in Hansard.