Housing Bill

House of Commons, 11 May 2004.

Clause 2 — Meaning of "category 1 hazard" and "category 2 hazard"

Edward Davey (Liberal Democrat, Kingston and Surbiton)

I beg to move amendment No. 100, in clause 2, page 3, leave out lines 10 to 19 and insert—

'(1) Meanings of "category 1 hazard" and "category 2 hazard" shall be prescribed for the purposes of this Act.

(2) Those meanings shall be so prescribed by reference to—

(a) hazards of prescribed descriptions, and

(b) a ranking system for the severity of such hazards by which the question of whether a hazard achieves a particular ranking is decided by reference to—

(i) the results of a qualitative assessment of the hazard in question, and

(ii) an assessment of whether those results meet prescribed qualitative criteria.'.

Michael Martin (Speaker, Glasgow Springburn)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 102, in page 3, line 20, after 'risk,' insert '(a)'.

No. 103, in page 3, line 21, after 'HMO', insert—

'(b) that the dwelling or HMO is or is likely to be below a reasonable standard, having regard to its age, character or locality, or

(c) that the condition of the dwelling or HMO is or is likely to be such as to interfere materially with the personal comfort of the occupying tenant, and'.

No. 101, in page 3, line 27, leave out from '218(1)' to end of line 29.

Government amendments Nos. 6 to 13.

No. 134, in clause 8, page 7, line 11, at end insert—

'(e) the functions and requirements in respect of new qualifications and training required by environmental health officers.

(f) the functions and requirements in respect of the nature and time expenditure required so that these tasks can be considered to have been properly fulfilled.

(g) the functions and requirements in respect of the circumstances in which they may be required to compensate landlords for costs incurred in the carrying out of their duties'.

(h) their functions and requirements in relation to fire safety legislation and in particular consideration be given to the installation of automatic fire sprinklers in HMOs.'.

No. 104, in clause 44, page 28, line 34, at end insert—

'(2A) In the event of such an appeal being made, the notice under section 40 is not suspended.'.

Government amendment No. 29.

No. 119, in schedule 13, page 231, line 31, after '189' insert—

'Sections 190A'.

Edward Davey (Liberal Democrat, Kingston and Surbiton)

I begin by expressing our concern for the constituents of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Ann McKechin), and I hope that Ministers follow up your words, Mr. Speaker. Let us hope that what sounds like a tragedy does not result in any fatalities.

This group of amendments deals with housing conditions. Part 1 of the Bill significantly changes the way in which housing conditions are considered by environmental health officers, particularly, but not exclusively, in the private rented sector. The new system that the Government are introducing—the housing health and safety rating system—is broadly supported across the House. However, we raised several points in Committee that we want to address again in slightly different ways to ensure that we are clear about the Government's intentions and to see whether we can push them a little further in a few respects.

Amendments Nos. 100, 102, 103 and 101 reflect a concern that I expressed in Committee—namely, that the Bill introduces too mechanistic an approach whereby environmental health officers will have to try to calculate a numerical assessment of the state of the home concerned, using a complicated system to add up the probabilities and risks that particular conditions may harm certain types of people in order to produce ratings that define the problem as a category 1 hazard or a category 2 hazard. That system is based on a quantitative approach, but in our discussions in Committee, the Minister took a more expansive approach that possibly reflected the tone of the guidance that we saw only just before we debated it in Committee. He went so far as to tell the Committee that environmental health officers will be expected to use their professional judgment and that the approach will be qualitative, as well as quantitative.

Although we do not seek to press our amendments to a Division, I hope that for the sake of clarification the Minister can put on the record again some of the comments that he made in Committee. For example, he said:

"Let me say a little more about judgment reports and flexibility. I should like to emphasise that the environmental health officer's assessment of the property, which will generate a score, will be based on their professional judgment of the condition."—[Official Report, Standing Committee E, 20 January 2004; c. 48.]

He made other remarks along those lines to suggest that despite what it says in the Bill, a degree of flexibility and professional judgment will be involved. Can he give such an undertaking to members of the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health, who will have to try to make the new system work? That would be helpful, because when environmental health officers tested version one of the system, they encountered many problems in trying to use that mechanistic approach.

It is worth commenting on Government amendment No. 6, which changes the requirement in the Bill for a local authority to consider the housing conditions in its district at least once a year. When we debated that duty in Committee, we thought it rather onerous and proposed amendments. At the time, the Government were not convinced, but they have returned with this amendment to allow greater flexibility by removing the frequency requirement to leave a general duty. I welcome that deregulatory measure.

Amendment No. 104 would ensure that there is a procedure to allow environmental health officers to go into a property very quickly if a hazard exists with the potential to cause an emergency. As the Bill stands, if an environmental health officer serves a notice on a landlord to say that there is an emergency that requires urgent investigation, the landlord can appeal. I understand that an appeals procedure is necessary, but some in the profession are worried that if a genuine emergency arose, the appeals procedure could get in the way of its being tackled. The amendment would ensure that the emergency can be dealt with even while the appeals procedure is going on. That might sound odd, but we are talking about situations that could threaten the lives of occupants, neighbours and even passers-by. Perhaps we misunderstood the various amendments that were discussed in Committee, but we certainly did not debate this point. Will the Minister confirm that if a real threat arises, the appeals procedure will not get in the way of its being dealt with?

Amendment No. 119 would reverse the Bill's repeal of section 190 of the Housing Act 1985. We are not convinced by that change, which was not debated in Committee. I remind hon. Members that section 190 enables a local housing authority to serve a repair notice on the landlord where the house is

"in such a state of disrepair that, although not unfit for human habitation, substantial repairs are necessary to bring it up to a reasonable standard",

or

"its condition is such as to interfere materially with the personal comfort of the occupying tenant."

The Government want to repeal that right because they believe that other measures introduced in the Bill make it superfluous. However, the professionals feel that although the Government have provided some new powers to deal with disrepair, they do not measure up to the section 190 powers. They are worried that in trying to raise the standard of conditions of housing, the Government are shooting themselves in the foot by getting rid of a piece of legislation that was helpful and putting in place measures that are not as effective. Environmental health officers and groups such as Shelter have told me that section 190 should be retained, arguing that although the new rating system is good for dealing with current threats to the health and safety of occupants, it is not so good for dealing with future threats.

There is some fuzziness around the edges, but the basic point is that the Government's proposed system deals with current threats, but not future threats such as rotting window frames or damaged guttering, which do not cause a problem immediately but will do so in the foreseeable future. People are worried that the new system, unlike section 190, will not cover disrepair that causes inconvenience or misery to residents—for example, ill-fitting windows or poor lighting—and fear that we may end up with a worse regime for dealing with housing conditions than the present one.

It is worth the Government reflecting on that. I doubt whether they will accept the amendment—that would be a turn-up for the books—but they might at least take time to reconsider my arguments when the Bill moves to another place and perhaps decide that section 190 of the 1985 Act is worth retaining.

Joan Walley (Labour, Stoke-on-Trent North)

I wish briefly to endorse some of the comments made by the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey). I should say from the outset that I speak as vice-president of the Institute of Environmental Health Officers.

I have corresponded with the Minister on some of these issues, and he was kind enough to respond to me in a very lengthy letter dated 5 March. I want to take this opportunity to flag up the day-to-day work of environmental health officers on housing repair and the huge responsibility that they take and put into action on a daily basis. They want to ensure that any new legislation that reaches the statute book does not put us in a worse position than that which obtains under existing statutes. I would hate us to make a decision today that would take us back a step rather than taking us further forward.

The Minister has been very courteous already, but I must tell him that the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health still has certain concerns. Bearing in mind the fact that these issues are not to be pressed to a vote, will he agree to continue the dialogue that he has been having with the institute? Perhaps, between now and the time when the Bill goes to the other place, he will be kind enough to have further talks with the institute to ensure that the changes that we are proposing will enable the proper repairs to be carried out to the nation's housing stock.

Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)

For the purpose of the debate, I should like to declare that, as shown in the Register of Members' Interests, I am a director of a family property company with building interests.

This part of the Bill is highly complex, and I must admit that, even having had a briefing from the civil servants in the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister and having sat through the Committee stage of the Bill, I still do not feel wholly confident to lecture or give advice on it. We have given our broad support to the housing health and safety rating system, but with 29 categories of housing hazard and a numeric way of assessing them, it will be complex to administer.

An issue that arose in Committee, and to which we return in amendment No. 134, is the uniformity of the application of this part of the Bill. The amendment proposes that the appropriate national authority—be it the United Kingdom Government or the Welsh Assembly—should set out clearly what is expected of the respective institutions in regard to the qualifications and training of environmental health officers and the functions and requirements relating to the operation of this part of the Bill.

Another theme that we have identified is that, if it is clear from the Bill, through guidance, what is required, it will be much easier to ascertain the cost of providing those services. We raised the issue of cost on a number of occasions in Committee, and the Minister replied that the Government expected the one-off set-up costs of training environmental health officers and of information technology to be in the order of £4 million to £5 million. Perhaps that might be a recurring cost each year. I come from a local authority background, and I am still a little suspicious, given the complexities of this system and its implementation across the country, as to whether such an amount would fully cover the costs involved.

We are not going to press our amendment to a vote, mainly because, given the programme motion that the House has passed, we might want to discuss other, weightier issues later. I would like the Minister to reassure the House, however, about how even-handedly this part of the Bill will be applied. We believe that it is important to include guidance in the Bill. Perhaps he will also briefly revisit the topic of the cost of the system. Every time the House passes legislation that places a duty on local authorities, or changes the manner in which they carry out their services, it is important that we should fully compensate them for that, particularly in this age when we often throw allegations across the Chamber at Office of the Deputy Prime Minister's Question Time about who has the worst record on council tax, for example. One of the major engines for generating higher costs for local authorities is legislation that puts too much of a burden on those authorities, which is not fully reflected when the revenue support grant is produced.

We have more important matters to discuss later, so I shall end my remarks now, to give the Minister an opportunity to give the House further reassurances on this important part of the Bill.

Sir Sydney Chapman (Conservative, Chipping Barnet)

I am grateful to have been called to speak and I shall be very brief. I want to pick up the point made by the hon. Members for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) and for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley). The hon. Gentleman mentioned an occasion on which a person from a local authority might have to enter premises in an emergency. It would be quite wrong in those circumstances to require prior notice, and I believe that that also applies to a landlord. It would be wrong of us to think that there is permanent conflict between tenants and landlords. I hope that, in the main, a very harmonious relationship exists between them.

My other point is on the application of this part of the Bill. Of course we must get rid of unfit homes, and of course we must bring homes of a poor standard up to the standard that we expect to find at the beginning of the 21st century, but let us remember the context in which we are doing so. In recent years, the amount of public money invested in housing has been dramatically cut, although I am delighted to say that the Chancellor has recently announced that he is increasing the provision from £4 billion to £5 billion. However, the amount going into housing in 1990 was £11 billion, according to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. It is vital, particularly in a place such as London, that we do not suddenly cut off a vast proportion of the private rented properties. All local authorities must employ an even-handed touch in giving time for conditions that are not necessarily or immediately hazardous to be improved. I support this part of the Bill in general, but it is the application of it that will be the decisive matter in practice.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

Before I respond to the debate, may I take this opportunity to express the Government's great sympathy and concern in regard to the explosion in Glasgow, which was brought to the attention of the House by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Ann McKechin)?

The House will understand that I want not only to deal with the issues that have been raised in the non-Government amendments, but to explain and commend the Government amendments to the House. Clause 2 of the Bill provides for the components of the new hazard assessment system—the housing health and safety rating system to be prescribed in regulations. These are: the method for calculating the seriousness of hazards; the descriptions of hazards; the bands into which the hazards may fall, according to their seriousness; and the numerical scores that determine the bands into which the hazards fall.

Subsection (1) defines "hazard" for the purposes of part 1 of the Bill as a

"risk of harm to the health or safety of an actual or potential occupier of a dwelling HMO"—

a house in multiple occupation—

"which arises from a deficiency"

on the premises or on

"any building or land in the vicinity".

It also defines category 1 and category 2 hazards.

Under the rating system, the assessment of a hazard has two elements: the likelihood of an occurrence resulting in harm, and the potential outcome of that occurrence. By virtue of subsection (3), the regulations prescribing the method will take account both of the likelihood of harm occurring and of the severity of the harm if it occurs. Whether a hazard is in category 1 or 2, and whether, within those categories, the hazard falls into band A, B, C, D or E is a matter for the judgment of the inspector. I use that expression advisedly, and I hope that in doing so I can provide the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) with the reassurance that he seeks. I must underline that point.

Regulations will describe the method for assessing hazards, set out the principles for scoring the hazards and placing them in bands, and list the 29 hazards to be covered by the system. Guidance to be given under clause 8 will give advice on how local authority officers should operate the system using their judgment, what they should look out for, and what can be done on the premises to remove or reduce a hazard.

Amendments Nos. 100 to 103 seek to make technical changes to the meaning of "hazards". In our view, they undermine the objectivity of the system, which is its prime objective. I also believe that they stem from a belief that the system is in danger of being excessively mechanistic and leaves no room for judgment—that is, that the rating system deals with numbers at the expense of the inspector's professional judgment and knowledge. The system does use numbers, of course, but the hazard score will not be determined by the system. I say again that it will be determined by the inspector's judgment, and I pay tribute to the professionalism of the officers of the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health.

Amendment No. 103 would introduce the concept of relative standards to a system of risk assessment by requiring the "age, character or locality" of a property to be taken into account. That creates something of a slippery slope. I do not argue that the rating system seeks perfection in every dwelling. Some sorts of dwelling have characteristic defects. For example, early 20th century terraced houses may have steep staircases that increase the risk of a fall. A local authority inspector will know that and make appropriate allowance for it. On the other hand, it will not be good enough for him to say that, because many dwellings in his area have leaking roofs, he should play down the seriousness of that defect in a particular dwelling.

The housing health and safety rating system is a tool that provides objective information as a starting point for an inspector to support his judgment of the action needed to deal with a hazard. That judgment should take on board the effect of housing conditions on the health and safety of occupants.

Amendment No. 103 would also introduce considerations of material comfort into a system that assesses the health and safety risks to occupants. I am sure that that is a reflection of representations that have been made to me about the repeal of section 190 of the Housing Act 1985. Aside from any merits of having a separate power to deal with minor disrepair and discomfort, it is inappropriate to introduce it in the housing health and safety rating system formula.

The housing health and safety rating system will pick up disrepair when it contributes to any hazard in category 1 or 2. I understand that authorities would like to have wider powers to deal with conditions that are not even hazards. The housing heath and safety rating system provides a tool for authorities to prioritise intervention, and they can choose to tackle disrepair that contributes to modest hazards, should that be their approach.

When disrepair does not even contribute to a hazard, we should hesitate to provide open-ended powers. Enforcement action needs to be proportionate and evidence based. There is no reason why authorities cannot provide advice to landlords when they judge that defects might lead to discomfort or further deterioration in the future and monitor those conditions. I therefore invite the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton to withdraw the amendment, but I hope that my remarks have reassured him.

I shall now deal with Government amendments Nos. 6 to 13, which, I am delighted to say, largely respond to representations that were made in Committee. Clause 3 requires local authorities to consider the housing conditions in their district at least once a year, with a view to determining what action to take, for example, under their powers to deal with hazards identified under the housing health and safety rating system, or their powers to declare renewal areas or provide financial assistance for home repair or improvement.

In Committee, I was pressed on the frequency of such consideration by local authorities, and hon. Members presented arguments for both more and less frequent consideration. I undertook to reconsider the requirement. Clause 3 replicates provisions that were enacted most recently in the Local Government and Housing Act 1989. However, the Government's approach to local housing strategies has developed since then, and authorities are no longer expected to produce them annually. The requirement in clause 3 to keep the housing stock under review remains important, but the obligation to do so annually is out of kilter with the approach to strategies.

Amendment No. 6 therefore retains the obligation to keep the stock under review, but removes the requirement about frequency. The purpose of the clause is to ensure that a local authority maintains a current awareness of the state of the housing stock in its area so that it can reach well-informed judgments about the action that it needs to take. As I said in Committee, the purpose of the provision is not to require an authority to produce reports at specific intervals, although we expect authorities to keep records that can be made available to the appropriate national authority. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton for his welcome for the clause.

Clause 4 deals with the requirements on local authorities to inspect premises to determine whether they contain hazards. It also deals with the requirements on authorities and their officers to respond to complaints about housing conditions. In Committee, the handling of complaints received what I described at the time as "a good thrashing", and I have concluded that the extended discussion that took place was due, at least in part, to a lack of clarity in the way in which clause 4 deals with the issue. The amendments are intended to set out more clearly the way in which the Government expect complaints to be tackled and to draw a sharper distinction between official and other complaints.

Amendments Nos. 7 and 8 remove subsection (3) and establish a general duty on local authorities to arrange for an inspection of premises to be carried out. That duty arises if the authority considers that an inspection would be appropriate, either as a result of a review under clause 3 or for any other reason, to determine whether a category 1 or 2 hazard exists on those premises. The amendment therefore provides for the kinds of circumstances that, in the normal course of business, are most likely to lead an authority to inspect a property and consider enforcement action under part 1. They include ordinary, day-to-day complaints to the authority.

There is no duty on authorities to respond to every such complaint but, as I said in Committee, we expect them to respond to complaints that are not vexatious or frivolous. Amendment No. 7 therefore sets out what I might describe as the "default" approach to complaints.

Let me deal with what clause 4 calls "official" complaints. They have a dual significance in that they carry the weight of a justice of the peace or a parish or community council and are made to the proper officer rather than to the authority. The proper officer, who, in this context, is likely to be a senior environmental health officer, has duties independent of the authority's, including a duty to inspect premises in response to an official complaint. That lends those complaints—in both the giving and the receiving—an additional significance. It enables them to be considered without any suggestion that political or financial considerations may have been brought to bear.

Much of the debate in Committee focused on the official complaints and on amendments that would have extended the power to make such a complaint to other institutions. However, I stress again that the official complaints are the exception rather than the rule. Indeed, I have to confess to the House that a recent trawl by the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health has not identified a single authority that can recall the use of the official route for complaints.

That is not to say that the official route has no value.

Edward Davey (Liberal Democrat, Kingston and Surbiton)

rose—

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

If I may be allowed to make my argument and the hon. Gentleman still wants to intervene, I would welcome his remarks.

The findings illustrate, as I maintained in Committee, that the ordinary workaday route for tenants and residents to complain directly to their local authority works well in the vast majority of cases and there is no need to widen the official route.

Edward Davey (Liberal Democrat, Kingston and Surbiton)

The Minister is making an interesting speech, which would have enlightened our previous "thrashing" debate. However, perhaps the current formal route is not sufficiently wide and the findings that he has secured back the case that we made in Committee.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

In Committee, we were in a sort of competition to extend the category of those regarded as official complainants. However, the reality appears to be that the current system works well enough and we perceive the official route as a fall-back, default mechanism or recourse when other more obvious routes fail.

Andrew Bennett (Labour, Denton and Reddish)

Does my right hon. Friend accept that there has always been a tension between the public health and management sides of a council? Does he also accept that, especially when houses have been bought up because of, for example, road widening, the council tends, in its management of the road-widening scheme, to resist pressure from the public health side to make temporary improvements to those properties? There is now a danger that, if local authorities do not have the resources to put their council properties into a state of good repair, the housing authority could manage a house with, for example, poor electrical wiring and be embarrassed by the pressure from the public health side of the council. It is important that the Minister emphasises that the public health side should have priority.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

On the whole, I am inclined to agree with my hon. Friend and to emphasise that, of course, public health must have considerable priority. He perhaps takes us wider than the immediate issue, but I have listened to him very carefully and, as ever, I will bear his observations in mind as I pursue these matters.

I took the point made by hon. Members in Committee that not all areas are blessed with a parish or community council, and I recognise that those councils do not have the same independence as justices of the peace, but I am not about to deprive those who have access to such a council of that second string to their bow, even though one is enough.

Subsection (4), as amended by amendment No. 10, ensures that all inspections, whether by the authority in response to an ordinary complaint or by the proper officer in response to an official complaint, are carried out in accordance with regulations, including those under clause 2, which will prescribe the method of hazard assessment. That means that all inspections carried out in response to complaints, whether ordinary or "official", will be carried out with the same rigour.

Amendment No. 13 further strengthens the procedure for official complaints by ensuring that it is properly rounded off with a report by the proper officer, whether the hazard revealed by the officer's inspection has turned out to be category 1 or 2. Amendments Nos. 9, 11 and 12 are technical and consequential.

On amendment No. 134, let me begin by assuring the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) of the continuing even-handedness of the Government's approach in these matters. As I said in Committee, we anticipate the start-up costs of these arrangements to be about £4 million to £5 million.

Members will be aware that in January we had a thorough debate in Committee on an amendment with the same purpose as amendment No. 134. Indeed, the Committee even divided on that amendment, so I acknowledge that certain members of the Committee were not entirely persuaded by my arguments. That said, my arguments against this amendment remain unchanged.

Clause 8 enables the Secretary of State in relation to England, and the National Assembly for Wales in relation to Wales, to give guidance to local housing authorities on the exercise of their functions under part 1. That guidance will be about how properties are to be inspected and assessed using the housing health and safety rating system and how authorities, once they have assessed a hazard, should apply the enforcement duties and powers provided in part 1. Those relate to the use of improvement notices, prohibition orders, hazard awareness notices, demolition orders, and clearance, and also to the use of the emergency measures under the provisions added to the Bill by Government amendment in Committee.

Amendment No. 134 would add to the topics on which guidance may be given. I must declare to the House that I remain entirely unconvinced that those additions are necessary. The amendment appears to question the fact that environmental health officers employed by local housing authorities are already qualified to operate the rating system.

I recognise that the rating system requires a change of approach by local authorities—this is the first time that we have brought risk assessment and housing conditions together under a regime that has been around in some shape or form for the past 80 years—but the housing health and safety rating system is essentially a tool to assist professional judgment, as I have repeatedly said.

Environmental health practitioners are already used to risk assessment methods in other areas of their work. I am comforted by the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health, which in its response to our recent consultation on the enforcement guidance gave an account of the work that practitioners do. The CIEH response points to environmental health practitioners'

"experience in risk assessment procedures and ability to take an holistic view of the health, safety and welfare of occupiers alongside traditional building and means of escape defects."

It seems to me, therefore, that the hon. Member for Poole takes a dimmer view of the experience and abilities of environmental health professionals than does the CIEH.

The chartered institute is a key housing stakeholder and I do not underestimate the contribution that its members will make to the success of our reforms, but it is clear that we are not talking here about the need for new qualifications. Rather, I have said that we will do what we can to ensure that the rating system is implemented smoothly. There will be training in the system, and we are considering what training will be required, but in the meantime, there cannot be many EHOs or authorities who remain ignorant of the principles underlying the system, as version 1 entered the public domain in 2000 and a draft of version 2 has been available since last December.

Proposed new subsection (1)(f), which amendment No. 134 would insert in clause 8, appears once again to be an attempt to write a regulatory impact assessment into the guidance. That is not the function of guidance on either a technical assessment or the use of the enforcement options. I have said before that inspections are likely to vary considerably in the time that they take, both in the field and back at base. The computer programme that will be part of version 2 of the housing health and safety rating system should enable inspectors to save time by entering data as they carry out the inspection.

As to proposed new subsection (1)(g), which would be inserted by the amendment, it is not clear in what circumstances authorities may need to compensate landlords. Landlords will have a right to appeal on the improvement notices and prohibition orders for which the Bill provides before they take effect, or, in the case of the emergency measures, after the measures have been taken.

Compensation may well be an outcome of an appeal in some such cases. I suggest that compensation is a matter that should be dealt with on appeal. I cannot agree that compensation should be a matter for Government guidance under clause 8, nor, as I said before, can I see that compensation is a likely outcome for a landlord who has kept his tenants in conditions so hazardous that a local authority has felt compelled to take enforcement action.

I turn now to the question of fire, which of course is one of the 29 hazards dealt with by the rating system. There will indeed be guidance on hazards from fire, which will cover the causes and preventative measures. Fire is one of the most important hazards. Nevertheless, I do not think it necessary to single out fire safety in the Bill. All the hazards will be spelled out in the regulations, which prescribe the housing health and safety rating system method under clause 2.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

I am trying to be helpful to the Minister, as he knows I generally am. As he is moving on to those matters, will he specifically deal with the report by the National Landlords Association, with which he will be intimately familiar? I see he is looking at it with knowledge and familiarity. The report makes this absolutely clear:

"Just over 5 per cent. of England's population live in HMOs, which, statistics suggest, suffer just over 5 per cent. of England's fire fatalities."

I do not necessarily make the argument for the association, but I know that he will want to deal with its argument in the fullest and most persuasive way.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing the House's attention, if not mine, to the report in question. I give him the assurance that we shall deal with those issues of fire hazard in connection with HMOs in our debates this afternoon. Not for the first time, if I might say so in recognition of his skills and abilities, he anticipates weighty matters that will come before us in due course.

Though we had a good debate on the issue in Committee, allow me to say again, with the leave of the House, something about how local authorities are being asked to deal with hazards. When inspecting a property, the inspector asks, "What is the likelihood of an incident taking place—for example, the risk of an outbreak of fire—and what harm will be caused, taking account of other factors such as the precautions that have been taken in the property and the means of escape?"

We want local authorities to prioritise action against all serious hazards, and in the case of HMOs covered by part 2 they will be required to do so following an application for a licence. We will emphasise that in the guidance we issue to authorities. The guidance will also include advice on how housing authorities can work with fire authorities to ensure that both housing and fire safety legislation work effectively.

The Bill now requires local authorities to consult fire authorities before taking enforcement action under part 1 in an HMO. That will ensure that expert advice is available to local authorities. When an authority has assessed a serious category 1 hazard, it will be under a duty, under clause 5, to take appropriate enforcement action. Should an improvement notice be served under clause 9, the action taken by the owner or landlord must, as a minimum, ensure that the hazard ceases to be a category 1 hazard. The authority will therefore need to ensure that any remedial action required in the case of fire is appropriate. It would be inconsistent with a system of risk assessment to prescribe specific means of dealing with hazards. However, the technical guidance to be issued under the clause will recommend that there should be adequate means of escape from fire from all parts of a building. For HMOs, there should be adequate fire protection, including, as appropriate, sprinkler systems. That does not mean that authorities will require such systems in all HMOS, but that it will be appropriate to fit them where the risk justifies it. In conclusion, our technical guidance will be already be comprehensive in its treatment of fire and other hazards, and the elements of the amendment are either misplaced or appropriate.

In the time remaining for this group of amendments, let me turn to non-Government amendment No. 104, as I want to reassure the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton. This amendment seeks to ensure that when a local housing authority serves a notice of emergency remedial action under chapter 3 of part 1 of the Bill, in order to deal with a hazard that presents an imminent risk of serious harm to the occupiers of residential premises, the taking of the action is not affected by any appeal that may be made against the notice. I am happy to confirm that the amendment is unnecessary because such a notice will enable the authority to take action immediately.

Clause 44 provides a right of appeal to the residential property tribunal against such a notice, but the appeal will not prevent the local housing authority from taking the action. When an appeal is made under clause 44, the tribunal may confirm, reverse or vary the decision of the authority, although this might be considered unacceptable if works have already been carried out. In such circumstances, schedule 10 allows the appropriate national authority, in regulations, to make provision for additional relief. These regulations might provide that when emergency remedial action has been taken and the tribunal determines that the local housing authority was wrong to decide that such action was necessary, the tribunal may require the authority to compensate the owner for any damage incurred or return the premises to the state that they were in before the works were carried out. I therefore invite the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his amendment. In passing, I commend Government amendment No. 29 to the House.

Finally, let me turn to amendment No. 119, about which my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley) spoke so eloquently. I assure her that I will continue to listen to the arguments, although she will understand that I can make no commitments. I recognise the reasons for this amendment. I am aware that there is some support among local authorities and housing professionals for retaining powers of some kind to deal with disrepair. Part 1 of the Bill, however, enables authorities to deal effectively with substantial disrepair. Using the housing health and safety rating system, they can apply the evidence of the effect of that disrepair on occupants—not merely on tenants in the private rented sector but on all occupants, should they be at any risk.

Section 190 of the Housing Act 1985 currently gives discretion to local authorities to serve a repair notice when a dwelling, though not unfit, is in such a state of disrepair that substantial repairs are necessary to bring it up to a reasonable standard. Such a notice can also be served when the condition of the dwelling interferes materially with the personal comfort of an occupying tenant. I am sure that hon. Members will appreciate that, technically, this amendment will not work. By retaining section 190 as it stands, an authority will need to have regard to a standard of fitness, and we are of course repealing the fitness standard. In the spirit of generosity that has characterised our proceedings on the Bill, however, I am happy to address the underlying issue.

We told the Select Committee on the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, whose distinguished Chairman is in his place, that we would consider its recommendation to retain an amended section 190. However, having considered this matter, I am not minded to support the retention of a power on the lines of section 190. There are sound reasons for that. Part 1 of the Bill will not prevent authorities from taking action against substantial disrepair. The hazards from structural failure, fire, cold, falls, asbestos and electrical faults, for example, set out in version 2 of the guidance, illustrate the kinds of disrepair that can give rise to such hazards, against which authorities will have either a duty or very wide discretionary power to take action.

To give local authorities revised powers to deal with substantial disrepair would create a parallel regime. That is not good regulation, and if those parallel powers were to deal only with minor disrepair, they would undermine the rationale for the health and safety rating system: that interventions should be prioritised, proportionate and based on evidence.

It being one and a quarter hours after the commencement of proceedings on the programme motion, Mr. Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].

Amendment negatived.

Mr. Deputy Speaker then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour.

Clause 3 — Local housing authorities to review housing conditions in their districts

Clause 4 — Inspections by local housing authorities to see whether category 1 or 2 hazards exist

Schedule 3 — Improvement Notices: Enforcement Action by Local Housing Authorities

Clause 54 — Licensing of HMO to which this Part applies

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

I beg to move amendment No. 127, in page 36, line 9, leave out 'the following' and insert 'all'.

Alan Haselhurst (Deputy Speaker, Saffron Walden)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment No. 128, in page 36, line 9, leave out from 'HMOs' to end of line 19.

Amendment No. 3, in page 36, line 10, at end insert—

'( ) any HMO in the authority's district of 3 storeys or above or in which at least 5 people live, and'.

Amendment No. 87, in page 36, line 10, at end insert—

'( ) any HMO in the authority's district of 3 storeys or above or in which at least 4 people live, and'.

Amendment No. 105, in page 36, line 37, leave out '5 years' and insert '12 months'.

Amendment No. 129, in page 36, line 37, leave out '5' and insert '3'.

Amendment No. 106, in page 36, line 38, at end insert—

'(c) a local authority may apply to the appropriate national authority for authority to extend the 12 month period in 54(6)(b) to a maximum of 5 years. The authority in making its application must satisfy the appropriate national authority that there are good reasons why it cannot reasonably comply with the requirements of 54(6)(b).'.

Government amendments Nos. 31 and 32.

Amendment No. 1, in clause 66, page 44, line 5, at end insert—

'(c) the energy efficiency of the house concerned.'.

Amendment No. 107, in clause 66, page 44, line 10, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—

'(b) conditions requiring the written statement of terms in paragraph 1(5) of Schedule 4 to contain details of—

(i) the responsibilities of the occupier in respect of his own conduct;

(ii) the responsibilities of the occupier in respect of the conduct of other occupiers and visitors;

(iii) the ways in which the licence holder may address any nuisance or annoyance caused to others by persons occupying or visiting the house.'.

Government amendment No. 33.

Amendment No. 2, in clause 66, page 44, line 16, at end insert—

'(da) conditions requiring the installation of energy saving measures or efficient heating systems'.

Amendment No. 108, in clause 72, page 49, line 16, at the end insert

'and

(c) section 21 of the Housing Act 1988 (c. 50) shall not apply.'.

Government amendments Nos. 34 and 14.

Government new clause 6—HMO declarations.

Government new clause 7—Revocation of HMO declarations.

Government amendments Nos. 125 and 50 to 53.

Amendment No. 122, in clause 214, page 157, line 44, at end insert

'and

(c) a short-term stay hostel'.

Amendment No. 123, in clause 214, page 158, line 8, at end insert—

'(5A) In subsection (4), "short-term stay hostel" means a building or part of a building which offers temporary accommodation and is occupied wholly or mainly by visitors from outside the United Kingdom (whether or not employed in the United Kingdom).'.

Government amendments Nos. 126, 56 to 59, 65 and 66.

Amendment No. 124, in schedule 11, page 218, line 1, leave out paragraph 5.

Government amendments Nos. 67 to 69 and 35 to 37.

Amendment No. 95, in clause 99, page 68, line 37, at end insert—

'(2A) A local housing authority must have regard to any breach of the duty owed to persons occupying the house under section [HMOs and duty of care].'.

Government amendment No. 17.

New clause 17—Housing ombudsman for students—

'(1) For the purpose of the investigation of complaints made about landlords by students, there shall be an office of Housing Ombudsman for Students.

(2) The Housing Ombudsman for Students will be appointed by the Secretary of State.

(3) An appropriate code of conduct for the Housing Ombudsman for Students will be established by regulations by the Secretary of State.

(4) The Secretary of State will, by regulation, make provision about the investigation by the Housing Ombudsman for Students of complaints made about landlords by students.

(5) Regulations under subsection (4) will make provision about—

(a) the matters about which complaints may be made;

(b) the grounds on which a matter will be excluded from investigation, including that the matter is the subject of court proceedings or was the subject of court proceedings where judgment on the merits was given;

(c) the description of individual who may make a complaint;

(d) a power of the Housing Ombudsman for Students to investigate any complaint made (whether the complaint is subsequently withdrawn or not), and, where he investigates, the making of a determination;

(e) a power of the Housing Ombudsman for Students to propose alternative methods of resolving a dispute;

(f) the powers of the Housing Ombudsman for Students for the purposes of his investigations (including powers to consult and co-operate with other persons), and the procedures to be followed in the conduct of investigations;

(g) the powers of the Housing Ombudsman for Students on making a determination, which may include power—

(i) to make recommendations as to action to be taken to remedy any injustice to the person aggrieved and to prevent any similar injustice being caused in the future,

(ii) to make orders with regard to the payment of compensation or to order that a person is not to exercise, or require the performance of, certain rights or obligations, and

(iii) to publish statements, or to make orders requiring the publication of statements, that a person has failed to comply with an order mentioned in sub-paragraph (ii);

(h) the manner in which determinations are to be—

(i) communicated to the complainant and the person against whom the complaint was made; and

(ii) published (with or without excisions).

(6) Regulations under this section may contain such supplementary, incidental, consequential or transitional provisions and savings as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.

(7) Regulations under this section may make different provision for different cases or descriptions of case.'.

New clause 21—Warm homes—

'(1) The appropriate national authority shall issue guidance for the improvement of existing HMOs and the implementation in future housing stock (where possible) of—

(a) installation of products manufactured for cavity walls, loft or underfloor insulation, external and internal wall cladding and draft proofing

(b) Greater control of domestic heating systems, low emissivity glazing and efficient fitting of pipes and plumbing.

(2) The local housing authority should seek to act in accordance with subsection 1 and with the Sustainable Energy Act 2003.'.

New clause 25—Landlord associations and codes of practice—

'(1) The Secretary of State may ask one or more bodies representing landlords to draw up a code of practice for his consideration under section 193;

(2) Before exercising his power under subsection (1), the Secretary of State must determine that any such body is itself fit and proper, and is capable and competent to represent the landlords who are its members;

(3) In reaching his determination in subsection (2), the Secretary of State should give particular regard to any training, professional development or accreditation schemes operated by that body for its members.'.

New clause 28—HMOs and duty of care—

'(1) A person having control of or managing a HMO owes to all persons occupying the house a duty to take such care as is reasonable in all the circumstances to see that they are reasonably safe from personal injury or from damage to their property.

(2) A person having control of or managing a HMO who is in breach of the duty of care in subsection (1) commits an offence.

(3) A person who commits an offence under subsection (2) is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.

(4) A local housing authority must have regard to any breach of the duty in subsection (1) when considering the health and safety condition under section 99.

(5) In this section—

"HMO" means a house in multiple occupation as defined by sections 213 to 217, save that the provisions of Schedule 11 do not apply to this section, and references to an HMO include (where the context permits) any yard, garden, outhouses and appurtenances belonging to, or usually enjoyed with, it (or any part of it).'.

Amendment No. 120, in clause 194, page 146, line 38, at end insert—

'(3A) The regulations may empower local authorities to require, by notice, owners of houses in multiple occupation to carry out such works or actions as may be necessary to put in place, or observe, satisfactory standards of management.'.

Amendment No. 121, in clause 209, page 155, line 22, leave out from 'section' to end of line and insert

'sections 213(3), 142, 143, 144, 150 or Schedule 4'.

Government amendment No. 21.

Amendment No. 96, in schedule 11, page 217, line 8, after 'Part 1', insert—

'or section [HMOs and duty of care]'.

Amendment No. 97, in schedule 11, page 217, line 9, after 'Part 1', insert—

'or section [HMOs and duty of care]'.

Amendment No. 98, in schedule 11, page 217, line 11, after 'Part 1', insert—

'or section [HMOs and duty of care]'.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

I hope that I can follow your laudable example, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and be pertinent and pithy, thus allowing the maximum time for exploration of the detailed matters involved in this and later parts of the Bill.

I want to discuss not just amendments Nos. 127 to 129, tabled by me and my hon. Friends, but to spend a good deal of time—with your permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker—on other amendments and new clauses in this group. They concern such important matters as warm homes and the appointment of a housing ombudsman for students, which Conservative Members have championed in Committee and on other occasions.

The first few amendments are designed to clarify whether the Government will seek to bring more HMOs within the licensing framework. A number of people are concerned about the balance of the Bill. We must be ever mindful of the balance between regulation and the proper protection of vulnerable citizens in particular. We have argued throughout the proceedings so far that that balance must be struck in a way that does not act as a disincentive to those who provide much-needed accommodation for rent. Issues such as cost, burden and the difficulty of staying within the law are considerable disincentives to marginal landlords—people who might stop letting their properties just as easily as they might start letting them.

Matthew Green (Liberal Democrat, Ludlow)

The hon. Gentleman is on to a good point in relation to concerns about regulation. I am therefore bemused by his first two amendments, which would appear to include all HMOs in the regulations, rather than restricting them, which I thought was the thrust of his argument. I am therefore confused, right from the start.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

The hon. Gentleman is often confused, but not always. I concede that I should perhaps have said at the beginning that the first two amendments were probing amendments, but I did say that they were designed to clarify whether the Government would seek to bring more HMOs within the licensing framework, as he will see from the record. Conservative Members are highly sensitive to that question. We are mindful of the balance that I was beginning to describe, and which was acknowledged by the hon. Gentleman, between regulation and protection; and we are anxious, on behalf of landlords and others, about the risk of seriously deterring landlords from investing in this sub-sector of the rented sector.

Sir Sydney Chapman (Conservative, Chipping Barnet)

We should be particularly sensitive at a time when public housing, or housing in the social sector, has declined, and when the number of new homes has declined. We must be careful not to discourage private landlords from supplying much-needed housing, particularly in places such as Greater London, unless there are very good reasons for closing properties because they constitute a hazard.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

My hon. Friend, who is an expert on these matters, properly draws attention to a particular failing on the Minister's part. I do not want to embarrass the Minister more than is necessary, but we are among friends here, are we not? I think that the Minister would want me to remind him of his failure in respect of social house building. He has let down the country, himself and the Government. He has many qualities and strengths, which will doubtless be on show today, but the 50 per cent. reduction in social house construction under this Labour Administration further emphasises the need to fill the gap with other suitable properties. If that is not done, many vulnerable people will not be able to obtain the houses that they need so desperately for themselves and their children. As my hon. Friend says, it is all the more important for us not to deter private landlords at a time when there is not enough social housing, and the amendments that the hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) quickly identified as probing amendments are designed to test the Government in that regard.

The Council of Mortgage Lenders feels that the licensing of all HMOs would be excessive, but believes that there may be a back-door policy of extending licensing not just to them but to a substantial proportion of the private rented sector. Like the Opposition, it seeks assurances from the Government.

I pay tribute to the Minister for taking on board the concern expressed in Committee about fit and proper persons. Government amendment No. 32 seeks to extend the definition of evidence relating to whether someone is a fit and proper person to evidence that a person has been convicted of sexual offences. The Government have tabled a number of other useful technical amendments, which shows that the Minister listened carefully in Committee. That does not surprise me, and I do not think that it will have surprised anyone else because much of the debate in Committee was constructive and intended to improve the Bill.

I want to say a little about the Liberal Democrat amendments. I do not like to say more than is necessary about the Liberal Democrats, although we recently combined usefully on the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill, and I do not want to spoil the emerging affair between us and the minor party. [Laughter.] I mean, of course, the emerging political affair. I have to say, however, that amendment No. 105, which requires local housing authorities to fulfil their general duties within 12 months rather than five years, is a regulatory step too far. Authorities would, I think, find it extremely difficult to fulfil their obligations. That is an optimistic aspiration at best and in all probability an unrealistic one. Under amendment No. 106, if

"there are good reasons why it cannot reasonably comply",

a local authority may apply for an extension of the 12-month period to five years. The answer to that is that all authorities would apply, as few would be able to comply with what I consider an over-zealous time scale.

Let me now say something about our new clauses 17 and 21. Conservative Members, along with many Labour Members, are champions of those who campaign against fuel poverty. I see that the hon. Member for Nottingham, South (Alan Simpson) is present. I want to make it clear, on my own behalf and that of my party, that he has a noble record in that respect. We can join forces in raising genuine questions about the Government's ability to meet their own targets for the delivery of warm homes. Fuel poverty blights lives and it is not acceptable for any Member or party to allow the problem to continue when it could be rectified with reasonable practical ease. Many Members have tabled amendments, at this stage and earlier, drawing attention to the concerns of those who, like me, are determined to highlight that problem.

It is estimated that between 30,000 and 60,000 people die unnecessarily in winter because they have not enough money to heat their homes. I need say little more than that, except that we know that fuel poverty is caused by a combination of inadequate income and inadequate home insulation. New clause 21, which is modest and practical, is designed to push the Minister further towards a policy that would unite Members throughout the House in pursuit of the campaign against fuel poverty, in the interests of some of our most vulnerable citizens.

New clause 17 would establish a housing ombudsman for students, who are specifically excluded from the regulations in the Bill. I note that amendment No. 124, tabled by the Liberal Democrats, requests their inclusion, but I do not think that that counteracts or contradicts our demand for an ombudsman, which has been welcomed by the National Union of Students. It has written to me saying that it welcomes our new clause in principle. A letter from the vice-president for welfare, who is running the NUS housing campaign, raises a number of specific issues about the role of the ombudsman. I also have good news from the housing ombudsman himself, who has written to me and also to my hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) saying that he might well be able to add this responsibility to his existing brief, so that he or one of his deputies could perhaps become the students' ombudsman.

We see a real need to protect vulnerable students. Most universities do a good job in providing accommodation and many halls of residence are of the highest possible standard, but it is important for us to build in some protection to deal with those that are not.

I have tried to cover what is an enormous subject, given the grouping of the amendments and new clauses. I make no criticism of the Chair, of course. I hope that it is fair to say that all our amendments and new clauses are designed to be practical and positive, and I am sure that the Minister has read and will respond to them in that spirit.

Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield, Attercliffe)

I should like to speak to amendment No. 3, which is also supported by two of my hon. Friends and three Liberal Democrat Members. I had therefore wondered whether I got the amendment right, but on balance I think that I probably have.

This is a relatively simple amendment, which I am sure the Minister could simply accept. It deals with the issue, which was raised in Committee, of which houses in multiple occupation will be incorporated in the mandatory national licensing arrangements. The Minister said then that he was likely to use as the definition properties that had three or more storeys and five or more people living in them. The amendment seeks to change "and" to "or", so the definition would cover properties with three or more storeys or five or more people. That is an important point. Although the change involves the small words "and" and "or", it would make quite a big difference to some properties that will otherwise be excluded from the scheme.

I should like to try to tease out a number of issues from the Minister, if he is in a teaseable mood today. I hope that we can get one or two responses from him. I am sure that he will say in response that the amendment would put the definition on the face of the Bill, whereas he prefers the position in which that is done by regulation through secondary legislation, because it is then easier to adapt to changing circumstances as we go along. I have listened to that argument with interest but if he is going to mount it, as I am sure that he will, perhaps he will also inform the House of whether he sees the definition that he gave in Committee, if that is what he is going to stick with—three or more storeys and five or more people—as just a starting point for a national licensing scheme. Does he foresee a situation in which, once local authorities have a certain number of properties in the national licensing framework, he might look to extend the definition as authorities become able to cope with more properties? It would be interesting to learn that from him, because it might give us a different appreciation of what he and the Government intend.

Will the Minister reflect on why we are looking to introduce a national licensing system for HMOs at all? I suggest that there are two essential problems with HMOs, which come up over and over again. The issue that particularly interested him in Committee, which was why he wanted to stick with a definition that excluded any properties lower than three storeys, was risk. We went into the assessment that has been made of fire risk, and the conclusive evidence that the greatest risk of fire, and deaths from fire, in HMOs occurs in properties of three or more storeys. That is clear. However, I put it to the Minister that there are two main problems. Risk, particularly risk from fire, is one fundamental reason for licensing HMOs, but there is another difficulty, which perhaps occurs more often, although its impact is arguably less serious: nuisance. Nuisance from HMOs, where there is concern from neighbours about dereliction, rubbish scattered around the property and the noise and nuisance that can come from the occupants—often in part because a property is being badly managed—has little to do with a property's height and whether it has two or three storeys. It has much more to do with the number of people who live in a close environment. That is why my definition is better than that which the Minister proposes.

Chris Ruane (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

In my hon. Friend's definition of HMOs, would the three storeys include the cellar and the attic?

Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield, Attercliffe)

We went through that in Committee and the Minister will probably be able to reinforce the argument. We were told then that an attic or cellar might well count towards the number of storeys. However, there is a further problem because if a landlord then chose to block off the cellar, basement or attic, the property might not count. There could therefore be a three-storey property with a blocked-up attic that was not included under the definition. That issue should be taken up, and perhaps the Minister will say more on it.

Lynne Jones (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)

My hon. Friend mentioned the problems other than fire hazards that occur in HMOs of fewer than three storeys. Does he accept that, in many areas, particularly where there are large numbers of students occupying smaller properties, there can be similar problems even when only four people occupy a property? What are his views on the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South (Alan Simpson)?

Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield, Attercliffe)

That is an interesting point, which takes us back to the arguments about the Housing Act 1996. The position of the Labour Opposition at that time was that the definition should be three or more storeys or four or more people, which is exactly what is in amendment No. 87, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South (Alan Simpson). I accept that point, but by sticking to the figures used by the Government and inserting "or" instead of "and", I am trying to raise the principle that the problems of HMOs do not just concern risks such as that from fire. They also concern the management of the property in terms of nuisance, especially in student areas. The number of people in a property is more important in that regard than the number of storeys. If the Minister insists on a definition that means that any property lower than three storeys, irrespective of the number of people in it, will not be subject to the national licensing arrangements, that leads to a position in which many properties where there is the potential to create nuisance will be excluded from the scheme. That is a real concern that I hope he will address. It is the additional issue of nuisance that I hope that he will take into account in the final definition.

The Minister might point out that there can be additional licensing and that it is open to any local authority to designate an additional area in which the definition of HMOs for licensing can be different from that prescribed by the Minister for the national scheme. I have had discussions with him on that point and I hope that he will respond on it.

Funding arrangements are important for local authorities because in their present budgets, education and social services funding tends to be passported, so that what is left is often constrained and under pressure. My understanding is that the first start-up costs of the national scheme will be borne by an up-front Government grant, but that the ongoing costs will be covered by the charge made for licences. However, when a local authority considers an additional licensing scheme, although any licences under that scheme will cover the day-to-day running costs, the start-up costs, because of the consultation that must be undertaken, are likely to be greater than the start-up costs of implementing the national licensing scheme. Yet as I understand it, there are to be no additional funds whatever from central Government for that.

The start-up costs—for all the consultation and arrangements laid down in the Bill—of additional licensing arrangements will come out of the small amount of money that local authorities have for street cleaning, environmental improvements, parks and gardens, and other important services on which local people rely. Perhaps the Minister will consider giving us some comfort in that regard. It would not take much for central Government to agree that, where an additional licensing scheme is ultimately accepted and approved—the Minister said in Committee that he would not seek to second-guess local authorities on that—the start-up costs, at least, should be borne by central Government.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

The hon. Gentleman is making a compelling case, as ever on such issues. What broad assessment has he made—or does he know what assessment the Minister has made—of those costs? I am particularly concerned about extra resources and staffing, and the retraining of existing staff. We have not had clear answers on that and I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman could elucidate.

Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield, Attercliffe)

A response with that sort of detail is probably up to the Minister to give. I understand that he has accepted that, where there is a statutory requirement for a mandatory licensing scheme because that is an extra responsibility on local authorities, the Government are committed to providing for that under their principle of funding for such costs. However, they are not committed to funding any discretionary work that local authorities do on additional schemes.

I know that other hon. Members want to speak, but I have a few more points to raise with the Minister. I understand that he is discussing with local authorities in housing market renewal areas the possibility that they could bring in additional licensing arrangements without having to come to the Secretary of State for approval for them. Perhaps the Minister could give us some information on that.

Local authorities have mentioned the lack of interaction between the legislation and HMOs in terms of class 1 hazards. Has that problem been resolved? As I understand it, where there is a class 1 hazard, a prohibition order can be put on the property. As a result, the property could be excluded from being an HMO, but because such an order does not come into force for 28 days, and because there is a right to appeal during that period, it might be necessary for the local authority to take a decision on licensing the property as an HMO at the same time as it has identified a class 1 hazard. The problem associated with the class 1 hazard would not be resolved for some months, so what would the authority do in the meantime? That issue needs to be addressed.

Finally, I turn to an important issue raised by Chris Galley, a Sheffield city council officer who is responsible for dealing with these matters. We need to be rigorous in introducing a national licensing scheme and local authorities need to be rigorous in enforcing it. But in addition to ensuring that we catch landlords who act wrongly, we should also be interested in educating them to act in the right way. As well as trying to raise standards through an inspection regime that is designed to catch landlords out, will there be funding for local authorities for the start-up costs of the scheme, so that they can engage with landlords through a proper education programme in an effort to raise standards? I doubt whether the cost of the licence will cover that, although the Minister will correct me if I am wrong. That is another important issue that needs to be addressed.

Matthew Green (Liberal Democrat, Ludlow)

This is a huge group of amendments, including 12 Liberal Democrat amendments and two new clauses that deal with seven major issues. In addition, we have added our names to amendment No. 3. I hope that the House will bear with me as I try to go through some of the amendments. I shall try to allow plenty of time for others to get in.

I was mightily relieved to hear that the first two Conservative amendments are probing ones. I was worried that the Conservatives were harking back to their days as the party of over-regulation. I want to add to the comments of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts) on amendment No. 3. There is a real case for the Government's having to justify why they are not going for three storeys or five or more occupants, given that they supported that principle fairly extensively in the past. Indeed, the Entec report, which is one of their own commissioned reports, makes it clear that all three-storey houses in multiple occupation are high risk, regardless of occupancy levels. That is the very report on which the Government relied in making the case, and rightly so, for the licensing of HMOs. The same report also identified two-storey bedsits and homes for vulnerable persons as being high risk. A two-storey bedsit could easily contain five or more people, but currently, it would be outside the mandatory system, even though it should be in it.

Amendment No. 3 would in fact cover only 120,000 properties, extending the provision to just 19 per cent. of HMOs. That is not over-regulation but regulation of the most vulnerable and dangerous properties. There is a real case for the Government to answer here. Their argument that they propose to rely on regulation might be satisfactory if we could believe that they would introduce it. However, they have made it clear throughout the process that they will regulate only in respect of three or more storeys and five or more occupants.

Another argument that the Minister has used against the amendment is that local authorities could use the discretionary powers to extend the scheme to areas in which there were particular problems. A Shelter survey of local authority environmental health teams discovered that 13 of the 32 authorities taking part were considering additional licensing to cover a larger number of HMOs in their local area, but worryingly, 10 of the authorities that were not likely to extend licensing provided examples of dangerous and substandard HMOs that fell outside the limits of the mandatory scheme. The discretionary powers still have to be agreed by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, but the Minister has not said that the ODPM would agree to local authority applications for such powers—and it is clear that, even if it does agree, many local authorities are not likely to follow the procedure.

I should point out that most of the local authorities that responded to the Shelter survey were Labour run. I wish the Minister would listen to those Labour authorities and councillors. I shall quote the excellent Labour authority of Telford and Wrekin, which is a near neighbour of mine. It has just been capped, but we shall leave that issue to one side for the moment; it is still rated as "excellent". It states:

"Size and storeys are not the most important factors but increase the risk."

However, that is the principle on which the Government are relying, in respect of a provision that will include very few properties.

Amendment No. 105, which is one of our amendments, seeks to ensure that licensed houses in multiple occupation do not contain hazards that present a threat to the health or safety of occupants. As currently drafted, the Bill allows licensed properties to contain hazards for up to five years after the application for a licence. The amendment would require local authorities to bring such properties up to standard within 12 months. The Conservatives suggested a period of three years, but under our proposal, a local authority could apply for an additional discretionary period if it had particular problems.

The Conservatives said that all local authorities would apply under the terms of such a provision, but not all would. For example, because my own South Shropshire district council is in a rural district—the Minister chided me in Committee because it has not undertaken a voluntary scheme—it has only three properties that fall within the HMO category. It should consider starting such a scheme quickly. Indeed, under our amendment, many local authorities could put such a scheme in place quickly, and those with a particular problem or burden could apply for extra time. So we have shown some flexibility. The amendment does not insist on a period of 12 months; a case can be made if a longer period is needed.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

The hon. Gentleman will appreciate our concern about the capacity of local authorities to deal with these matters. He seems to be saying that those local authorities that do not in any case have many HMOs will find it very easy to adopt such a scheme, but the point of such legislation is that it should apply to places where the risk is greatest and the problem is at its height. What worries me is that there are insufficient resources and training for such duties, and we have had no assurance from the Minister that they will be provided.

Matthew Green (Liberal Democrat, Ludlow)

I share some of those concerns, but whereas ours is a practical amendment, the Government's provision simply gives everybody too much time. Five years is too long a period in which to allow such properties to be inspected and brought into the regime; indeed, the Conservative amendment reflects that by calling for a period of three years. We have tried to introduce a double-lock system, whereby inspection should take place within 12 months unless a strong case can be made for doing otherwise. These are different ways of approaching the same problem, but it is clear that the Government's proposed regulation is too lax for us to agree to—a fact that must cause Labour Back Benchers concern.

I welcome Government amendment No. 32, which adds sex offences to the list of offences that local authorities will consider in deciding whether a licence applicant is a fit and proper person. This issue was raised in Committee, the Government undertook to look at it and they have rightly tabled an amendment on it. It is clearly unacceptable for a sex offender to be the manager of a property containing numerous potentially vulnerable people.

Amendment No. 107 was designed to force the Government to discuss once again what they meant by the landlord controlling the actions of the tenant, but the Government have tabled their own amendment No. 33, which clarifies the licence holder's obligation, restricting it to "anti-social behaviour" by a tenant or visitor—and only to the extent that the landlord is "reasonably" able to do so. We welcome that, as we highlighted the matter in Committee. I shall spend no more time on amendment No. 107 because it has been largely dealt with by Government amendment No. 33. The Minister will not need to respond, which should save him a little time.

Amendment No. 108 deals with an issue that I attempted to raise in Committee, but we all got a bit lost—perhaps that is the politest way of putting it—so I shall have another go. It is a probing amendment, designed to deal with the problem that the "no rent payable" sanction against unlicensed landlords in clause 72 could result in the eviction of tenants. The stipulation that section 21 of the Housing Act 1998 shall not apply prevents landlords from using the accelerated possession procedure to evict tenants as a result of those sanctions.

The current provisions do not reflect the reality faced by tenants on low incomes with no security of tenure, who are unable to enforce their housing rights without risking eviction. HMOs represent a scarce housing resource and clause 72 could result in existing tenants being made homeless. Tenants with a shorthold tenancy will simply face possession action by their landlord if they attempt to enforce the "no rent payable" provision on unlicensed properties. In practice, many tenants will choose not to risk losing their homes and will simply continue to pay the rent. Those tenants on housing benefit will face withdrawal of their benefit, leaving them unable to pay their rent other than by dipping into what limited savings they might have. They risk homelessness if their landlord brings their shorthold tenancy to an end.

The Select Committee heard from Brent private tenants' rights group, which raised that very point, as the Chairman, the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Bennett), will probably recall. It said:

"Shorthold tenants will have no more power to refuse to pay the rent than they have power to exercise any other housing right. For housing benefit claimants, the situation is tragic, because their benefit will cease, and they will lose their homes at the earliest opportunity. Many of these tenants will be in priority need and will have no option but present as homeless to the local authority."

The Local Government Association raised similar concerns.

Sarah Teather (Liberal Democrat, Brent East)

I endorse my hon. Friend's point. My constituency has the highest number of houses in multiple occupancy anywhere in the country and the work done by the group that my hon. Friend mentioned is second to none in raising awareness of the issue.

Matthew Green (Liberal Democrat, Ludlow)

I thank my hon. Friend. She and the group are quite right to bring that matter to the House's attention.

When the Select Committee reported, it concluded:

"We are concerned that the 'no rent payable' provisions could have adverse consequences for tenants, potentially leading to their eviction. If the Government plans to retain these provisions, the final version of the Bill must include adequate safeguards so that tenants cannot be evicted because their landlord is unlicensed."

That was clearly recognised by the Select Committee, and the Minister has not dealt satisfactorily with it. It is a relatively technical point and not of great political significance, so I hope that the Minister will have a closer look at the effects of the provision and agree to amendments in the other place.

Our amendments Nos. 122 and 123 deal with issues that were not raised in Committee. They would amend the definition of hostel to include "short-term hostel". We define such a hostel as

"a building . . . which offers temporary accommodation and is occupied wholly or mainly by visitors from outside the UK".

It is primarily designed to deal with back-packers' hostels, in which there have been some hideous examples of fires in other parts of the world. We are concerned that the Bill does not cover those hostels. I hope that the Minister will either accept these amendments or present some alternatives. Such a provision could help to deal with the circumstances when people brought into the country by gangmasters have to live in very cramped conditions. I hope that the Government will accept some such amendment on the grounds that it would strengthen their powers in that respect.

I welcome Government amendment No. 58, which repeats an amendment that I moved in Committee. It would delete the word "woman's" from the term "woman's refuge". I was never certain why the Government were restricting the provision to women's refuges, when there are also battered men. After amendment, the definition of a refuge is a place where people may stay if they have left their homes owing to physical or mental violence or threats of such from their spouse or cohabitee. I am glad to see such a unisex solution. As I said, I was surprised that the Government had been so sexist in their original drafting, which I am sure was just an aberration.

I hope that we will vote on amendment No. 124, which would remove from the Bill the exemption of student halls of residence. It is supported by the National Union of Students, and the Government have not, frankly, argued a strong case why halls of residence should not be licensed. Indeed, in their 1999 consultation, the Government did not propose to exclude halls of residence, on the grounds that there was

"some evidence of unacceptable standards in these sectors."

That is stated in the Government's own consultation document. Subsequently, however, it has been suggested that public sector bodies, including universities, might be exempted from licensing, because they were under "some degree of control" or could be "expected to behave responsibly". In my opinion, that is not sufficient.

I would like to raise one particular issue that was not debated in Committee. It came to my attention when I visited Manchester students' union. There, the university uses PFI schemes to deliver student halls of residence. They are run by private companies, but appear to be exempt because they are "university halls of residence". Yet they are being run for profit by outside companies. At the very least, I hope that the Minister will ensure that the definition does not exclude those properties from the licensing of HMOs, as would appear to be the case. The universities certainly believe that they are exempt from the legislation.

Andrew Bennett (Labour, Denton and Reddish)

Let someone else get in to the debate!

Matthew Green (Liberal Democrat, Ludlow)

I shall move swiftly on. The Chairman of the Select Committee will note that many amendments have been tabled in my name.

Government amendment No. 67, which deals with student buildings, would have the opposite effect to our amendment No. 124 and would make the position worse.

Our amendment No. 95 is a drafting amendment that accompanies new clause 28, which introduces a general duty of care on all landlords of houses in multiple occupation as defined by clause 213. It is supported by Shelter and the Select Committee. The matter was not raised in the Committee and I hope that the Minister will explain why the Government do not accept it.

Our new clause 25 would introduce the possibility of a code of practice for landlords and I know that some landlord associations support the idea. Having such a code of practice is a means of delivering many of our objectives, including the licensing of HMOs, without overburdening regulation.

Hon. Members will be pleased to hear that our remaining amendments—Nos. 120, 121, 96, 97 and 98—are drafting amendments that accompany new clause 28 and can be dealt with accordingly. I would have liked to explain some of the amendments further, but I have already incurred the wrath of the Select Committee Chairman, who is the victim of the Government's own programme motion as much as anything else. I will leave it there, but I repeat that I want to press amendment No. 124 to a vote.

Alan Simpson (Labour, Nottingham South)

I rise to support amendment No. 87, which I intend to press to a vote.

I begin by thanking the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes), for his kind and generous remarks about my work on fuel poverty. That is an issue to which we will return later in the debate. I also want to thank the members of the Standing Committee that considered the Bill—and especially my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts)—for what they said in Committee about the problems encountered in university cities, and the proliferation of properties that are being acquired and turned into HMOs.

I also want to congratulate the Government on grasping the nettle that is a national licensing scheme. However, I want to press the amendment, as the holes in what we have done mean that people will criticise us rather than thank us.

Last night, I attended a public meeting in my constituency. The banner headline on yesterday's edition of the Nottingham Evening Post was "Students Drove Me to the Brink of Suicide". A two-page spread inside told how attractive areas of the city were doomed to become the slums of the future. Such was the scale of feeling in the city that the meeting was covered on BBC Radio Nottingham as an outside broadcast.

I did not come across anyone at the meeting who was close to suicide, but many appeared to be close to murder. People expressed a great deal of anger at the way in which their lives, in settled areas and communities, had been turned over because properties that were traditionally family houses had been sucked up and converted into HMOs.

Nottingham is the fastest growing university city in the country. In a couple of years, its student population will total about 55,000. In some of the areas that I represent, half the properties are occupied by students in HMOs. The police complain that those areas are becoming unpoliceable. Schools say that families no longer live there, and that as a result there are no children to make up school roll requirements. Many residents say that they do not have a clue where the landlords of these properties can be found.

Representatives of landlords' associations were on the panel at last night's meeting, but even they said that they had nothing to fear from an inclusive regulatory process that meant that everyone running an HMO should be subject to a licence. However, there are gaps in the way that the Bill defines HMOs, and the landlords at last night's meeting said that those gaps will be an invitation to cowboys.

Good landlords do not present a problem—many of the best have been involved in setting up voluntary agreements, and they stand by those agreements—but cowboys are a problem for everyone. The landlords told the meeting that the proposed definition of HMO will allow the most exploitative of landlords to move from three-storey properties into two-storey properties, and that that is exactly what they will do. They said that those landlords will seek to exploit the definition and make the greatest amount of money for the smallest outlay. Do they care about standards and conditions? Not one jot, we were told, and that is why I urge the House to support a definition that is as inclusive as it needs to be if we are to preclude the Bill becoming a cowboys' charter.

Many residents at the meeting asked exactly the same questions as the local authority was trying to ask. How do we deal with misbehaviour by tenants when there is no constraint on the people who own the property? The Government—rightly, properly and proudly—have introduced a series of measures to tackle the standards of tenants' behaviour, including antisocial behaviour orders. In addition, local authorities have been invited to take a much tougher and intrusive line when it comes to telling council tenants, "Look, if you can't control your kid's behaviour, your tenancy is in jeopardy and you can expect to be evicted."

Do any similar powers exist in respect of the private sector, and HMOs? No. Last night, everyone—including representatives of the police, the local authority, landlords and the universities, and even student bodies—was asking for a level playing field. They want standards of decency and community stability to be part of the framework for housing provision, in which safe neighbourhoods and sustainable communities are delivered, and are not just slogans used by the Government.

We can achieve that if we have the courage to use a definition that covers the majority of properties currently being acquired and converted into HMOs. My definition would accept the three-storey limit but would apply to properties in which four or more people live. Effectively, therefore, it would also cover properties in the two-storey category.

I hope that the House has the courage to vote for the amendment. If it does, landlords, local authorities, students and communities across the country will sing our praises. If we do not have that courage, we will get only brickbats from communities that are divided against each other.

Harold Best (Labour, Leeds North West)

The account just given by my good and hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South (Alan Simpson) mirrors what is going on in my constituency. One difference is that the equivalent of what happened at his public meeting last night happened seven years ago in my area.

The Bill is to be welcomed. I want to place on the record my appreciation of the efforts of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning. Real work has been done that will help to ease the real problems that exist. I want to deal with how the peculiarities of tenancy agreements and property management have been exaggerated by the explosive growth in student numbers. That has happened in densely populated areas that once were homes for traditional families.

Andy Reed (Labour/Co-operative, Loughborough)

Does my hon. Friend accept that in a place such as Loughborough, a market town with a population of between 55,000 to 60,000, the impact of student numbers—there are between 12,500 and 14,500, depending on how one counts them—is even greater than in large cities? I support amendment No. 87 because the vast majority of properties in towns such as Loughborough are much smaller, being terraced houses with two or three bedrooms. The problem highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South (Alan Simpson) is enormous in my area, and has also caused house prices in the town centre to rise way beyond the traditional entry level for first-time buyers.

Harold Best (Labour, Leeds North West)

I have no difficulty in endorsing that point. The problem is not confined to large cities. Leeds has a population of 750,000 and it has two universities. In addition, people attending Huddersfield university live in what has become the student area. The effect on house prices is equivalent to what my hon. Friend described in his constituency.

I want the Bill to contain a clear definition of the term "storey". How many storeys does a particular house have? For example, a traditional family house with a ground floor, a first floor and an attic used to be considered to have two storeys. Such houses used to cover acres of land in my constituency. However, for practical purposes—and those are what we must be concerned about—those houses have four storeys. That is important: thousands of houses that used to be family homes have been opened up to exploitation, with a catastrophic effect on what we might normally call community structures. For example, it is difficult to get people to vote. We have polls in which the turnout is only 12 per cent., which is unbelievable given that 10 years ago, in the same area, turnout was between 40 and 50 per cent. in local government elections.

The other issue is crime. That area had the highest burglary rate in the UK last year and the year before. It will probably have the highest rate this year and next. The peculiarities that we are legislating for must be understood. I appreciate the Minister's efforts, but this legislative programme must be further advanced as rapidly as possible.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

This has been a lively debate, in the course of which many separate issues have been raised. I shall respond first to the issues raised by the hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, because what I have to say may be of interest to all those who have contributed to the debate.

The hon. Gentleman spoke in support of amendments Nos. 127 and 128, and I have to tell him that the Government have no plans to extend mandatory licensing. However, as I have said before, we intend to review the operation of the licensing system within three years and we will come back to the House if any proposal to amend it finds favour. I hope that that gives the hon. Gentleman some comfort. I also hope that other colleagues will have heard that reassurance.

The hon. Gentleman also discussed other amendments, including new clause 21, with which I shall deal if I have time. However, we will have the opportunity to debate the issues of warm homes and energy efficiency under a later group. I turn, therefore, to those issues on which an intention to divide the House was expressed. Amendment No. 124 was spoken to by the hon. Gentleman. It would remove the exemption from the definition of houses in multiple occupation for those properties managed by universities and occupied by their students, such as halls of residence, in schedule 11.

I genuinely believe that there has been a misunderstanding in some quarters about whether property owned by universities but leased to other bodies for them to manage is also exempt from the definition. That is not the case, and Government amendment No. 60 clarifies that position. We tabled that amendment to make the situation clearer. Properties owned by universities and managed by another company, but of which the university retains control—and continues to receive the rents from the tenants—will be exempt from the HMO definition and, therefore, licensing. Properties that are owned by universities but managed by another organisation, and of which the university does not retain control—for example, because it has granted a long lease—will not be exempt from the HMO definition and may therefore be subject to licensing. That clarifies the position and goes some way towards what the National Union of Students and others would like. However, it does not go far enough for them, as they would like all properties owned by universities but managed by another organisation to come within the HMO definition.

The Government are aware of the concerns expressed by the National Union of Students about the conditions in some halls of residence. We are not, however, convinced that licensing or management regulations would be a solution to those problems. For a start, we are not aware that the problems are on the scale alleged. I have seen examples and they appeared mainly to concern the physical condition of the property. As I said in Committee, those issues can be addressed through part 1 of the Bill, which covers the health and safety rating system—and could not in any case be dealt with through licensing. Of course, I appreciate that there will be cases of management failure, but the Government expect universities and other higher education establishments to regard the health, safety and welfare of their students as of paramount importance, equally in the lecture halls and in the residential accommodation they provide.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

If the Minister had accepted our suggestion of an ombudsman, perhaps some of the arguments for bringing all student accommodation into the net would have evaporated. The Minister said that there were some problems, although they were not general. Why not have an ombudsman to whom people could appeal in those exceptional cases?

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

I hope to respond to the remarks made by the hon. Gentleman on the issue of a student ombudsman and, if he will permit me, I shall complete my line of thinking in an attempt to persuade the Liberal Democrats not to divide the House.

If, in individual cases, there are grounds for complaint about poor management, any complaints should be made to the university authorities, and the Government anticipate that they will be dealt with promptly and effectively. However, as there is little hard evidence of widespread poor management of university halls of residence, the Government are not persuaded that there is a sufficiently strong case for bringing university-managed accommodation in England and Wales within the definition of HMOs, other than for the purpose of part 1 of the Bill.

I come now to amendments Nos. 3 and 87 and the debate on studentification, which was less defensive than concerned. A divergence of opinion was evident between hon. Members about when the requirement for mandatory licensing should apply. My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts) will know that we debated extensively in Committee the Government's proposed scope for mandatory licensing of HMOs—those of three storeys or more and occupied by five or more persons—and the reasons for that formulation. Amendment No. 3, tabled by my hon. Friend, would require a local authority to licence all HMOs of three storeys or more, or any HMO occupied by five persons or more. By contrast, my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South (Alan Simpson) tabled amendment No. 87, which seeks mandatory licensing of HMOs of three storeys or more and occupied by four or more persons.

My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe raised many highly detailed questions, and I know that he will forgive me if I say that this is not the time or place to respond in similar detail. However, I undertake to write to him in response to the issues that he raised. His starting question was whether the current mandatory regime was a starting point for a mandatory licensing regime. As I have said before, that is not the Government's intention. We have accepted the principle of mandatory licensing, but we have done so on the basis of a clear and pragmatic justification—the issue of vulnerability to fire risk.

Desmond Turner (Labour, Brighton, Kemptown)

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

I shall give way to my hon. Friend in a second when I have completed this thought. The Government have borne in mind two considerations on the issue of mandatory licensing—the burden on local authorities, which any licensing regime would impose, and our wish to protect and encourage the private rented sector, which I also mentioned in Committee. Of course, we shall bear down on abusive landlords, but we recognise that on the whole the sector plays an extremely important role in the housing industry, both by giving people a first step on the housing ladder and in relation to labour mobility. The sector is also rather vulnerable—the average landlord owns only three properties. It has been characterised as a cottage industry, so we are reluctant to impose excessive burdens on it. We want to encourage it rather than burden it.

I apologise for taking so long to make my point. I shall now give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Dr. Turner).

Desmond Turner (Labour, Brighton, Kemptown)

I want to refer to amendments Nos. 1 and 2, which are grouped with amendment No. 127. They would restore a principle that the Government had previously agreed in respect of my private Member's Bill, and would deal with licensing, energy efficiency and energy conservation requirements for HMOs, given that such properties are subject to some of the worst energy conservation conditions and the greatest fuel poverty, and house some of the poorest and most vulnerable tenants. That principle was agreed by the Government two years ago, so can my right hon. Friend explain why it is no longer part of the HMO licensing requirements? Will he consider reinstating it?

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

We have already discussed the new housing health and safety rating system, which, as my hon. Friend knows, would allow cold and damp to be taken into consideration in the orders and requirements that environmental health officers might make. We shall by no means exclude issues such as warmth and thermal energy from our approach to the condition of housing stock and the need for action. My hon. Friend has considerable expertise in such matters, so he, better than most, knows that we are committed, through the warm front programme, to extensive improvement in providing warm housing stock in the private sector. However, we are certainly not in a position at this stage to make as a requirement the sort of measures that he recommended in his earlier proposals.

I want to return to some of the issues raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe and I shall then respond to the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South. I listened very carefully to my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe to ascertain the justification for his proposal to extend the mandatory licensing regime, and it was on the basis of nuisance. As he knows, the Government are clear about their criterion for mandatory licensing: it is based on a clear assessment of fire risk. However, I remain to be convinced that the properties that would be included in my hon. Friend's extended definition of mandatory licensing for HMOs would intrinsically be sources of nuisance or would have the potential to create nuisance.

In response both to my hon. Friend and to my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South, who raised a different concern—the studentification phenomenon—I point out that the Government are providing for an additional licensing regime, as all colleagues are aware, and where there is evidence of proven wrongdoing and proven risk there is the possibility of extending the licensing regime beyond what is caught by the current mandatory proposals. I hope to speak about that shortly.

Andy Reed (Labour/Co-operative, Loughborough)

Does my right hon. Friend understand the frustration in places such as Loughborough, where 98 per cent. of properties would not fall within the Government's current definition? As he knows from his many visits to the wonderful town of Loughborough, the town centre, especially the Storer road area, has changed dramatically, so a much narrower definition is required. There is nuisance, and if he would like me to join him in a walk around the Storer road area to see the consequences of not having a licensing scheme I should be more than willing to do so.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

I have not had the opportunity to discuss these matters with my hon. Friend, but I have certainly had ample opportunities, both in formal and informal contexts, to discuss them with my hon. Friends the Members for Leeds, North-West (Mr. Best) and for Nottingham, South. I have told them repeatedly that the Government cannot, in the Bill, legislate for where people live. We are legislating on the physical condition and management of housing stock. It is not invariably the case that students live in housing of poor physical condition. Indeed, it is frequently asserted that the studentification of abandoned city centre areas can actually lift the quality of the stock. Similarly, it is not the case that properties in student areas are, without exception, badly managed.

I do not for one moment deny the consequences of the concentration of student populations in terms of local services. There are certainly pressures on local schools and there may even be pressures on services such as post office facilities, but those issues do not relate directly either to the quality of the housing stock or the prevailing management conditions of that stock. I repeat that where a case can be made that there is systemic poor management of properties in localities, the additional licensing regime for which the Bill provides will respond to those situations.

Lynne Jones (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)

I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way, but he somewhat misleads the House by giving the impression that studentification, as he calls it, can lead to an increase in the amenities or the quality of the housing stock in an area. Certainly, most of my hon. Friends who have experience of the problem in their constituencies would say that the houses converted to student accommodation are, by and large, former owner-occupied properties in good condition and that studentification leads to a great deterioration in the area and in the quality of life there.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

I do not for a moment challenge my hon. Friend's observation about the quality of life, but I simply say that the argument goes both ways on whether the acquisition of properties for the purpose of accommodating students leads automatically to a decline in the quality of the physical condition of those properties. The argument goes both ways, and there are persuasive arguments on both sides.

I need rapidly to move on to explain and offer some reassurance, I very much hope, to the House about the possibilities for interventions in the licensing domain under this legislation. As I explained in Committee, the Government have adopted three-storey HMOs as the starting point for mandatory licensing because those properties pose the greatest risk of causing injury or death from fire. People living in a two-storey HMO are about four times less likely to die as a result of a fire than those living in a three-storey building.

As I also said, the number of occupants is a factor to be considered. Clearly, the greater the numbers of storeys in an HMO, the more people are likely to live in the property, so the risk of fire increases. Of course, many HMOs are less than three storeys and house five people or more, but those people are far less vulnerable to injury from fire than those in three-storey houses. I also appreciate that some three-storey HMOs are occupied by four people, but it is far more likely that three-storey buildings will house more people than that number, and I reiterate that the greater the number of persons, the higher the risk of fire.

We have estimated that mandatory licensing will apply to about 120,000 properties in England, housing five or more people. A line must be drawn somewhere on where HMO mandatory licensing applies. The Government believe that we have got this right at properties with three storeys and above that are occupied by five or more people, forming at least two households. However, local authorities must have, and we are giving them, powers to license problematic categories of HMOs in their areas. If a local authority establishes that there are management problems with all HMOs of, for example, three storeys or more occupied by four people or all HMOs occupied by five people that justify licensing, we are giving the local authority the tools to do so with the additional licensing regime.

I very much hope that that serves to reassure colleagues who come to the House with quite desperate concerns about the pressures arising from a concentration of student numbers.

It being two and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the programme motion, Madam Deputy Speaker put the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].

Amendment negatived.

Madam Deputy Speaker then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour.

Clause 60 — Requirement for HMOs to be Licensed

Clause 65 — Tests for fitness etc. and satisfactory management arrangements

Clause 66 — Licence conditions

Clause 75 — Index of defined expressions: Part 2

New Clause 6 — HMO declarations

New Clause 7 — Revocation of HMO declarations

Schedule 11 — Buildings which are not HMOs (except in Part 1)

Alan Simpson (Labour, Nottingham South)

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. You will be aware that a large part of the preceding debate focused on the contentious subject of houses in multiple occupation and properties that are included in that category. Given that hon. Members in all parts of the House saw that as a central issue, can you advise me how Members with strong feelings on the matter might secure a vote on the definition, which will be central to this part of our housing strategy?

Sylvia Heal (Deputy Speaker, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)

Under the programme motion, there are times when the occupant of the Chair has some very difficult decisions to make, and I realise that in that instance it is unlikely we will please all of the Members all of the time. There are a number of amendments still to be discussed in this place. Of course, the Bill does go to another place.

Clause 1 — New system for assessing housing conditions and enforcing housing standards

Clause 213 — Meaning of "house in multiple occupation"

Clause 214 — HMOs: houses and other relevant buildings

Clause 215 — HMOs: certain converted blocks of flats

Clause 216 — HMOs: persons not forming a single household

Clause 217 — HMOs: persons treated as occupying premises as only or main residence

Schedule 11 — Buildings which are not HMOs (except in Part 1)

Clause 86 — Tests for fitness etc. and satisfactory management arrangements

Clause 87 — Licence conditions

Clause 96 — Interim and final management orders: introductory

Clause 98 — Special interim management orders

Clause 100 — Operation of interim management orders

Clause 101 — Local housing authority's duties once interim management order in force

Clause 104 — Financial arrangements while order is in force

Clause 107 — Making of final management orders

Clause 108 — Operation of final management orders

Clause 129 — Index of defined expressions: Part 4

Schedule 6 — Management orders: procedure and appeals

New Clause 13 — Section 138: imposition of conditions.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Sylvia Heal (Deputy Speaker, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 27—Incomplete home information packs—

'A property may be marketed with an incomplete Home Information Pack in circumstances where reasonable efforts have been made to obtain the missing information.'.

New clause 32—Regulation of estate agents—

'(1) The Secretary of State shall by regulations set up a mandatory licensing scheme for persons engaged in estate agency work in relation to Home Information Packs to ensure that such persons satisfy minimum standards of competence.

(2) The regulations shall specify a degree of practical experience which is to be taken as evidence of competence and, without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1) above, the regulations shall also—

(a) prescribe professional or academic qualifications which shall also be taken to be evidence of competence;

(b) designate any body of persons as a body which may itself specify professional qualifications the holding of which is to be taken as evidence of competence;

(c) make provision for and in connection with the establishment of a body having power to examine and inquire into the competence of persons engaged or professing to engage in estate agency work; and

(d) delegate to a body established under paragraph (c) above the powers of the Secretary of State with respect to the matters referred to in paragraph (a) above.'.

Government amendments Nos. 81 and 82.

Amendment No. 88, in clause 137, page 94, line 21, leave out from beginning to 'have' and insert

'As a matter of voluntary discretion, a person may'.

[R] Relevant registered interest declared.

Amendment No. 110, in page 94, line 23, after '143', insert

'unless the property is marketed as being sold without a home information pack'.'

Amendment No. 89, in page 94, line 23, at end insert—

'(1A) The seller, when marketing the property, is obliged to specify whether or not a home information pack is to be provided'.

Amendment No. 90, in page 94, line 24, leave out subsection (2).

Amendment No. 109, in page 94, line 30, at end insert—

'( ) the seller markets the property himself'.

Amendment No. 111, in page 94, line 30, at end insert—

'(c) the seller has indicated that the property is to be sold without a home information pack'.

Amendment No. 91, in clause 138, page 94, line 33, after 'which,' insert ', where available,'.

Government amendments Nos. 83 and 84.

Amendment No. 112, in page 95, line 10, leave out paragraph (c).

Government amendment No. 85.

Amendment No. 113, in clause 144, page 99, line 3, at end insert—

'(aa) for ensuring that members of the scheme are independent'.

Amendment No. 114, in page 99, line 4, leave out 'suitable' and insert 'adequate and appropriate'.

Amendment No. 115, in page 99, line 10, at end insert—

'( ) for sellers, buyers and lenders to be entitled to bring proceedings in respect of a home condition report upon which they have relied in any transaction'.

Amendment No. 92, in page 99, line 16, at end insert—

'(8) A responsible person will be exempt from the requirement to provide a Home Condition Report in the following circumstances—

(a) the sale of a new home provided that it is registered with a warranty provider designated by the Secretary of State,

(b) the resale of a new home where the warranty cover remains in force,

(c) the transfer of ownership by a developer of a new home to another company prior to marketing the property to the public where the company assuming ownership is registered with a warranty provider designated by the Secretary of State.'.

Amendment No. 93, in page 99, line 18 leave out clauses 145 to 149.

Government amendments Nos. 86 and 44 to 46.

Amendment No. 133, in clause 209, page 155, line 25, at end insert

'or

(d) any regulations under Part 5.'.

Amendment No. 131, in clause 226, page 163, line 17, leave out '153'.

Amendment No. 132, in page 163, line 38, leave out '(other than section 153)'.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

I rise with a degree of embarrassment, Madam Deputy Speaker, because I have lost my place, and I feel that the House requires an explanation— [Interruption.] The Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), has rescued me, and I am now in a position to commend Government new clause 13 to the House.

The Government amendments are designed to ensure that the home information pack proposals are as effective as possible, without interfering more than is necessary with the rights of sellers, although I fear that some hon. Members think that the Bill already interferes excessively. However, I assure the House that part 5 of the Bill is absolutely necessary if we are to improve the home buying and selling process in England and Wales, which is currently shambolic.

Clause 150 currently provides that the Secretary of State will identify the situations in which the use of information in the pack is restricted. New clause 13 replaces that with a provision allowing sellers themselves to identify conditions on the use and onward disclosure of information supplied in the pack. In practice, however, sellers and agents who have gone to the trouble and expense of compiling a pack are likely to want to use it to maximum effect by making it available to potential buyers without imposing conditions, unless, for example, they are a celebrity who wants to prevent the media from getting hold of it.

Under new clause 13, sellers and their agents would still need an HIP and to provide a copy to trading standards officers on demand. Sellers and agents can already refuse to supply a copy of the HIP to any person to whom the seller is not prepared to sell or who does not appear to be a genuine buyer. New clause 13 will not add restrictions to access by potential buyers; it just allows conditions to be attached by the seller to the use and onward disclosure of information in the pack. We see no reason to qualify or restrict the conditions that may be imposed, and there seems little point in doing so, bearing in mind that the seller could simply refuse to supply a copy of the HIP on the grounds that they would not sell the property to the person in question.

Edward Davey (Liberal Democrat, Kingston and Surbiton)

Will the Minister explain how the new clause will enable the seller or the seller's agent to identify a person who asks for a HIP?

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

Again, the hon. Gentleman must forgive me, because I did not catch the entirety of his question. Will he repeat it?

Edward Davey (Liberal Democrat, Kingston and Surbiton)

By all means. How will the new clause enable a seller or a seller's agent to be certain of the identity of the person to whom the HIP is being given? Part of the concern is that people—possibly journalists—who want a scoop on, for example, Posh and Becks, might go round estate agents asking for particulars. How will the new clause deal with that aspect of the problem?

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, we hope to come on to that exact point in later exchanges.

Government amendment No. 86 removes clause 150. Government amendment No. 81 is a drafting amendment that ensures that clause 136 is consistent with the idea that the duties set out in clauses 137 to 139 continually apply while a person is the responsible person, and Government amendment No. 82 permits exceptions to that continual duty. For example, clause 138 only creates a legal duty in relation to a particular request, and the amendment ensures that clause 136 is consistent with that approach. Amendment No. 83 is needed to ensure that clause 138(2) is consistent with clause 149(5). As currently drafted, clause 138(2) requires a responsible person to supply copies of the documents that are in the HIP on the date that the request is made.

Clause 149 gives a right to bring legal action for costs against the responsible person if the information that is supplied in the pack is not what is in the home information pack on the date the pack is supplied. It is important that the two duties match up and vital that buyers get the most up-to-date version of the pack.

Clause 138 sets out some circumstances in which the responsible person may turn down a request for copies without breaching any duty. Amendment No. 84 makes it clear that the responsible person has 14 days to establish whether, on reasonable grounds, they are entitled to turn down a request.

Amendment No. 85 is a drafting amendment that is consequential on new clause 13. Clause 138(8) provides that the period allowed to provide a copy of the pack is 14 days from the date on which the request is made. The amendment makes it clear that that is subject to any extension of that period arising where conditions have been imposed under new clause 13. Clause 138(8A) provides that the duty to provide a copy of the pack ceases when the property is taken off the market or sold before the end of the 14 days. Amendment No. 85 makes it clear that a person will not breach any duty if, for example, he fails to provide a copy of the pack when he has already agreed to sell his house to another person.

Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)

This important part of the Bill remains controversial among Conservative Members and others, so I suspect that it will lead to a vote. If we catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, we shall want to move amendment No. 88, which would make the provision of a home information pack voluntary, because, having listened to all the arguments in Committee, we are still unconvinced about the scheme's benefits. If it was such a good idea, the industry would adopt it anyway, but imposing it will add substantially to the costs faced by home buyers and may well slow the process down, not speed it up. We were told in Committee that the cost of a home information pack would be about £600, but the bodies to which I have spoken suggest that that would be a minimum amount and that the real cost would quickly move closer to £800 or £900—perhaps even £1,000. That would be a comparatively small cost for the owner of a £1 million property in Chelsea, but a substantial burden on the owner of a home worth £30,000 or £40,000 in the midlands or the north. The scheme will create real problems, especially in areas of low demand.

David Kidney (Labour, Stafford)

But does the hon. Gentleman agree that most of those costs are already incurred in today's market, the only difference being that the buyer pays them, not the seller?

Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)

I agree that many of the costs are already imposed, but they usually fall due only when the house is sold, whereas the costs involved in this pack will be incurred when the house goes on the market. Although there is of course no guarantee that it will eventually sell, somebody with a house worth, say, £40,000 in an area of low demand will have to meet the cost at some point—possibly up front, as suppliers of the packs may demand in areas where they have less confidence that the home will be sold. The danger is that those who can ill afford it will have to pay those who have provided the information without the guarantee that they will eventually sell their home. That may be a very material feature when people decide whether they want to put their house on the market—or, indeed, to test the market by putting their house with an estate agent, as many people do in the current conditions. Now, people will be able to test the market only by incurring costs of £600, £700 or £800.

Bob Spink (Conservative, Castle Point)

Does my hon. Friend agree that his analysis, which I believe to be correct, leads to the conclusion that fewer people will put their houses on the market, which means that supply will be restricted, thus driving up house price inflation?

Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)

There is a risk of that happening. Indeed, the Minister will need to reassure the House on a number of issues in regard to this project, including the shelf life of a home information pack. Most of the professional bodies to whom I have spoken believe that, following the process of producing the pack and the home condition report, its shelf life would probably be six months—certainly for the home condition report. If a house did not sell, there might therefore be further costs involved in updating aspects of the pack.

We also heard extensively in Committee about the problem of the severe shortage of surveyors, with perhaps 9,000 to 10,000 being needed. Between now and 2006–07, when the scheme will be introduced, substantial efforts will have to be made by all the relevant professional bodies and by the building industry to produce the number of people necessary to undertake the surveys involved. We all get frustrated by the fact that transactions in the housing market sometimes do not proceed as rapidly as they should. I suspect that the answer is more to do with technology than with change, and I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Stafford (Mr. Kidney), who raised these issues in Committee. We had some good debates about how non-paper-based information could be used to speed up the housing market. My colleagues and I are not convinced that a home information pack is the answer.

As I understand it, if someone goes into an estate agent, they will initially get the details of the property. If, having looked at them, they considered themselves a potential buyer, they would ask the estate agent if they could view the home information pack. Under new clause 13, which the Minister introduced, it would need to be supplied within 14 days, and would possibly be subject to a charge or to some kind of legal agreement or conditions, so that a degree of confidentiality could be obtained regarding the information.

I presume that, as the person would still be only a potential buyer at that point, the costs incurred under the new clause would be the costs of printing off and sending the information, and that the full cost of producing a home information pack would be charged only when someone had actually undertaken to buy a property and signed a contract. I presume that the full cost would be met only at that point. So, when new clause 13 states that the

"potential buyer may be required to pay a charge authorised by section 138(7)",

I presume that that refers only to an administrative charge for supplying the information to potential buyers.

Perhaps the Minister can tell the House what has been put down in the Bill as a reasonable charge. At the moment, estate agents provide a nice picture of the property and its details free. No doubt, if a prospective buyer were a little more serious and wanted to view the property, they would ask for the home information pack, and the issue of a charge would arise. Some estate agents might decide to accept that cost as part of their overheads because they wanted to sell the property. Indeed, some owners might decide to carry the cost of printing off and sending out the details because they were desperate to sell. However, under new clause 13, it looks as though an estate agent could levy a charge for the provision of this information.

My concern is that estate agents could charge rather more substantial sums than is envisaged by the Government. No figure has been discussed in relation to the provision of this information to potential buyers, as opposed to the actual buyer. Will the Minister give the House an indication of what such a charge might be? Estate agents have to run their offices, pay their staff, and hold and print the information, and I can envisage some of them providing the information on a paper-based system and having to charge a potential buyer £30 to £40 for it. How will that impact on the way in which the market works?

I would therefore like to hear more about new clause 13. In Committee, we did not really talk about the charge. We talked about the main buyer and the main overall costs. The Minister listed specific aspects of the home information pack and stated what he believed that the charge would be. As I said earlier, he also disputed that it would be more than £600. However, if estate agents or those selling homes are allowed to charge a fee purely for printing a document, putting it in a glossy brochure and sending it through the post—perhaps registered delivery if they do not want the information to be publicly available—the charge under new clause 13(2) could be substantial. How would that impact on the way in which the market works?

I am sorry to say that the Minister's most persuasive and articulate arguments in Committee did not persuade my hon. Friends or me that the new clause was the best way forward. At the appropriate point, we may seek your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, to put amendment No. 88 to the vote so that hon. Members can express how they feel. We believe in voluntary not compulsory procedures. If the market works and the pack is as big an asset as the Government believe, I am sure that the industry will pick it up as a voluntary option, which does not have to be imposed by central Government diktat.

Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield, Attercliffe)

I want to speak about new clause 32, which would introduce a scheme to license estate agents. The home information pack is a major regulation issue and I must admit that when I first heard about it and we considered it in the Select Committee on the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, I was mildly sceptical about whether it would improve the process of selling and buying homes. Such is the power of the Minister's persuasive talents that I came round to the view that it is generally a good scheme and should be supported. I am sure that he will think about my persuasive talents when he decides to support new clause 32.

The Government are committed to a major item of regulation that will clearly formulate the way in which houses are bought and sold in this country. As part of that process, solicitors will perform their traditional conveyancing role. Of course, they have to be qualified and they are regulated in a specific way. The compulsory home conditions survey that we are introducing is also subject to regulation and the inspectors who carry out the surveys must be qualified for the job. There is an issue about training, which the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) mentioned, and the Government must tackle that to get the scheme right.

As public representatives, we have some duty to safeguard people from their worse follies. Two thirds of people buy a property without a proper home conditions survey. That is a bit silly and it is right for us to protect them from the mess into which they can get. That is one of the reasons for my support of the proposal for the home information pack.

However, although a series of professionals engaged in the process will be subject to licensing, regulation and the need for qualifications, the group of individuals who put the pack together, formulate and produce it will be completely unregulated. Any individual can walk in off the street, rent a property on a short-term lease, then stick a notice outside stating, "We are Rip-off and Folly, local estate agents. Come and sell your house through us." They would be entitled, with no controls, to formulate and produce a home information pack, which is subject to legislation and regulation. That is a glaring anomaly. The set of individuals who have to bring together the whole regulated process and will probably be paid more than anyone else for their endeavours—some people may not always perceive them as endeavours—will remain unregulated.

The BBC's "Brassed Off Britain" and Which?, the Consumers Association publication, have undertaken work to examine the current position. A survey was conducted into buying and selling homes in this country. It showed that 1.8 million homes are bought and sold every year and that fewer than half the people polled were satisfied with the service that they received from estate agents. That is probably not surprising. Over two thirds thought that estate agents frequently gave misleading information about their properties and 82 per cent. thought that all estate agents should be trained. It does not seem unreasonable to insist that those who do that job should be trained.

People were very concerned that those who would do the home conditions survey should be trained. I think those who would produce the sellers pack should be trained as well, and that they should have a professional qualification. Two thirds thought that the Government should license estate agents. That view, I think, would be fairly well reflected among Members of the House if they were asked to give their opinion based on their own experience.

I do not want to imply that every estate agent does a bad job, but we should go and talk to the better estate agents—the ones who have a reputation to think about—as they also would welcome a licensing arrangement, because it would lift the standard of their industry and bring a new respect to it. Such an arrangement would also mean that the rip-off merchants and the cowboys could not do a bad job and give the whole of estate agency a bad name. Many of the good estate agents would welcome my proposals.

There is, of course, an ombudsman for estate agents. The problem there, however, is that only a third of estate agents belong to the scheme. While someone who is selling a home can decide to go to an estate agent who is a member of that scheme—I certainly recommend it—people who want to buy a particular home that they are interested in cannot choose to go to a member of the scheme because the agent for the property will already have been appointed by the seller. That is another flaw.

In the meantime, the Minister could easily decide that all estate agents must become a member of the ombudsman scheme. That would be a step in the right direction, but it would not be perfect because, essentially, an ombudsman scheme is about sorting out problems after they have occurred. However, a proper system of regulating and licensing estates agents, and ensuring that they are trained, would try to deliver a better service from the beginning and prevent problems from occurring in the first place.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I want to make one point that I hope the hon. Gentleman accepts. It is not true that all estate agents are not trained or are not professionals in some way, shape or form. Many estate agents, particularly in rural areas, are chartered surveyors as well. Therefore, they have that other aspect to their work.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman in this regard: if we are to have compulsory home information packs, the buyer and the seller need some assurance on the contents of those packs. Most people will still trust the estate agent to put the pack together, but if it contains a fault they will have no comeback on those estate agents, unless they belong to the scheme to which he has referred. He is on the right track there.

Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield, Attercliffe)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point, with which I agree in general. Indeed, I had a phone call from the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors the other day, saying that it generally supports the licence scheme as well. It needs to give that professionalism and certainty to the service being delivered.

I put it to the Minister that there is a difference now that we are to have the home information pack. The public will believe that, because the Government are insisting on the pack, it somehow has Government approval behind it. If the people who are formulating the pack and pulling it together are not necessarily trained—some may be, some may not be—not necessarily qualified; subject to no proper controls and no proper regulation; and not necessarily part of an ombudsman scheme, the Government could be the ones who get blamed in the end for the deficiencies of the service.

Alan Hurst (Labour, Braintree)

My hon. Friend may realise that estate agencies often contain within their partnership chartered surveyors, who may well be the same people who draw up the home survey report. There is an inherent conflict of interest from which the purchaser—now called the buyer—may well suffer.

Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield, Attercliffe)

That is another fair point that needs to be sorted out. It shows again why we ought to have clear regulations laid down so that the public understand what is expected and required of the individuals who engage in this process on their behalf.

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Conservative, Cotswold)

I declare an interest as a fellow of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. Becoming a chartered surveyor involves a minimum of four years' training. In proposing a training scheme, will the hon. Gentleman give the House some idea of what training he thinks would be necessary and who would grant the qualification at the end of the process?

Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield, Attercliffe)

No, not off the top of my head. I have deliberately left the new clause open so that Ministers can take it away and consider those issues with the people in the industry. I see a body being set up, perhaps by the industry, but under regulation. That is something for the Minister to come back on. I do not want to say at this stage that two or three years' training would be appropriate, but clearly some training, a qualification and a form of licensing are what I am arguing for.

Finally, I understand that the Minister may be in a dilemma. I am sure that he is aware that when the public are polled and consulted on these issues, often, the only group of individuals who are seen to come lower down in their estimation than politicians are estate agents. He might be in danger of ensuring, at a stroke, greater public respect and support for the job of estate agency by lifting that group of individuals above his colleagues in the public esteem. In considering that issue, I am sure that the Minister will also have regard to the fact that if he introduced a scheme for licensing and training estate agents throughout the country, he would probably become the most popular individual politician in the country. I leave him with that thought.

Edward Davey (Liberal Democrat, Kingston and Surbiton)

The hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts) is raising his status with his helpful speech and new clause. At this relatively late stage of the Bill, were the Government radically to reform part 5 and make a home information pack voluntary, but adopt the approach of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe, they could get a consensus in this House. It is agreed, not necessarily by every Member of the House but quite widely, that the estate agency profession needs regulation and training. The hon. Gentleman did not mention, but he might have done, that the National Association of Estate Agents is in favour of the profession being regulated, which might strike some people as odd, but the good estate agents are concerned to drive out the cowboys. What is interesting is that those same estate agents, who are looking to improve the quality of their profession, think that the compulsory home information pack would be a disaster, both for their profession and for the housing market.

Unlike the hon. Gentleman, therefore, I was not convinced by the soothing words of the Minister in Committee. I want to spend some time explaining why the Liberal Democrats oppose the Government's proposal to introduce compulsory regulation of the buying and selling of homes.

I shall start by replying to the Minister's introduction of new clause 13. It is doubtlessly a step forward in terms of ensuring that the seller can ensure that a potential buyer does not disclose information. As I sought to indicate, however, it has not gone far enough. There are still concerns that people who roll up claiming to be potential buyers could have nefarious motives. Clause 138(4)(c) states that the duty of producing a home information pack does not apply if the "responsible person", the estate agent,

"believes on reasonable grounds that the person making the request . . . is not a person to whom the seller is likely to be prepared to sell the property."

The Minister might say that that provision guards against the concern that an agent might have that the home information pack will be given to someone from the criminal fraternity, for example. I return to the point that I made in an intervention, however: how will the "responsible person" be able to identify these people? We are being given a process through regulation whereby the criminal fraternity, journalists and others—they are not synonymous—will be able to access the property details of individuals, about which I am very concerned.

Alan Hurst (Labour, Braintree)

I declare an interest as a member of the country's most regulated profession, as I am a solicitor in the firm of Law, Hurst and Taylor. I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman makes too strong a point. At present, anybody can walk into an estate agent's office and receive sale particulars and sometimes a glossy brochure. Were film stars or other people of note to offer their properties for sale, all the information that the journalist, and probably the criminal, could want is already available without any check whatever from high street agents.

Edward Davey (Liberal Democrat, Kingston and Surbiton)

I agree with the Law Society, which is worried that the home information packs may contain much more information than estate agents' particulars—details of burglar alarms, for example. Those certainly do not appear in the information provided by estate agents.

The main issue is whether the packs should be compulsory or voluntary. Our amendments Nos. 110 and 111 would have an effect similar to that of amendment No. 88, tabled by the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes), which we shall support if it is pressed to a vote. They seek to make the provision of packs voluntary. We think that if the content of the packs is set out in law so that everyone knows what will be in them, they may well prove helpful to those buying and selling property, so we should let the market decide. By all means let sellers offer the packs as an added competitive advantage to attract potential buyers, but let us not impose them on the market. That might load extra costs on to people who might then be dissuaded from putting their properties on the market, either because they are short of a few readies or because they are merely speculatively testing the market, having seen a property that they liked at the weekend. Making the packs compulsory could freeze the market.

I wonder whether Professor Barker was asked to look at the new clause. She has produced an important piece of work about housing supply and restrictions on its improvement. Many people, not just in the House but outside, think that this new regulation will make the situation much worse. I bet Professor Barker would have been very alarmed if it had been brought to her attention.

Sir Sydney Chapman (Conservative, Chipping Barnet)

I entirely agree with what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Given that the provision represents a radical departure from the present arrangements governing the buying and selling of homes, would it not be wise for the Government to introduce it as a voluntary measure? If it proves to be as much of a success as its proponents claim, it can always be made compulsory later.

Edward Davey (Liberal Democrat, Kingston and Surbiton)

As the hon. Gentleman may know, the Law Society has its own transaction scheme, which the Minister praised in Committee. It was designed to streamline and speed up the collecting of information for the buyer, and to help avoid gazumping and gazundering. Some 75 per cent. of buyers have signed up to it, on a voluntary basis. It excludes the search, because people declined to pay for it upfront. The experiment has proved popular, but the Government are ignoring the experience of the scheme by seeking to force detailed information on people.

Amendment No. 109 seeks to ensure that a seller who is marketing his own property need not produce a home information pack. We feel that in the age of the internet, people should be encouraged to use the technology to market their own properties if they so choose, and should be exempt from regulation of this kind. I do not see why the Government are against that sort of DIY home selling, which would be a great competitive spur to this particular market.

New clause 27 seeks to enable someone to market their home when they have an incomplete pack in circumstances in which reasonable efforts have been made to obtain the missing information. That is necessary because the seller will be reliant on other bodies and organisations to access information for the home information pack. For example, they might need to obtain service charge information from a landlord or managing agent. What will happen if that landlord or agent delays, imposes unreasonable charges or fails to furnish invoices or receipts for payments made for previous service charges, which people often like to see when they purchase a property? If a seller has made reasonable attempts to put together a home information pack but has been thwarted by people whom they cannot control, it seems unreasonable to prevent them from going ahead and marketing their property. I hope that the Minister can give a full answer to the proposition in new clause 27.

Amendment No. 113 takes up a point already made. We want to make sure that the home inspectors who produce the report are independent. There is a real concern that estate agents, mortgage lenders, building fabric warranty providers and financial product providers will all come together in a vertical integration of the market in which the conflicts of interest will be many and damaging to the consumer interest. The Government are arguing that the measure favours the consumer, but if those sorts of company come together, with home inspectors being part of estate agent firms or financial institutions, consumers will seriously lose out. There are some real vested interests who support this new measure, and if the Government were really standing up for consumers they would understand that, and stop that new cartel in its tracks before it formed.

Amendment No. 114 seeks to amend clause 144 to ensure that the people who provide the packs have adequate indemnity insurance. The Government have been crossing their fingers and hoping that the people who provide the packs will be able to get professional indemnity insurance, although they have been told by the market that that will be very expensive and might exclude many people. That could make the shortage in the supply of people able to carry out inspections even worse. I hope that the Minister will give due consideration to amendment No. 114.

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Conservative, Cotswold)

Amendment No. 114 is the most crucial of the lot, because if the home condition inspectors do not have professional indemnity insurance, no reliance at all will be able to be placed on their inspection reports. When one considers the money involved in buying or selling a house, one realises that the possibility of those inspectors' missing some vital defect in a property could involve many thousands of pounds. If that process is not properly insured, the whole system will fall into disrepute.

I do not see how an insurance company will be able to provide that cover unless the inspectors are properly trained and qualified, a point made by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts). That aspect needs careful thought before the Government introduce home condition reports.

Edward Davey (Liberal Democrat, Kingston and Surbiton)

I am grateful for that point, which the hon. Gentleman made very well. It brings me to amendment No. 115, which is along similar lines. It seeks to allow sellers, buyers and lenders to bring proceedings where they have relied on information contained in the home condition report that then proves incorrect. It is important that that aspect be clarified. If the Government are doing consumers a service—an argument that I do not really accept—they need to make sure that the reports work. That means not just that inspectors should have professional indemnity insurance behind them, but that if the reports prove incorrect, the consumer knows that they can go to law, without any problems, and seek redress. I hope that amendment No. 115 will be accepted.

Amendment No. 115 and many of the others that I have tabled seek to make a dreadful proposal slightly better, so I hope that even at this late stage, the Government will take a different tack. I hope that they will support amendment No. 88, support the amendments that my party has tabled, support the new clause of the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe, but drop the absurd, outrageous, costly and damaging proposal to make home information packs compulsory.

David Kidney (Labour, Stafford)

Fundamentally, the Government seek to make the seller responsible for having all the information needed for the transaction at the beginning, rather than the buyer collecting it in dribs and drabs during the transaction itself, as happens now. We are talking about 1.8 million transactions a year, nearly two thirds of which are in chains, with an average of five transactions per chain. So in a voluntary system, just one non-participant in a chain prevents everybody from benefiting from the Government's scheme. Because of our reliance on such chains under the current system, there is a 33 per cent. transaction failure rate, which is extremely wasteful.

We have heard many times about Maria Coleman, the Bristol estate agent who has a voluntary scheme called "Open Book", through which everything is prepared by the seller at the beginning of the transaction. Her hugely successful voluntary scheme has reduced the failed transaction rate from 33 per cent. to just 3 per cent. It has been running for some seven years, so perhaps Conservative Members can explain to me why there has not been a landslide take-up of such schemes. In fact, Maria Coleman has so many problems with others not following the scheme that she supports compulsion.

Andrew Selous (Conservative, South West Bedfordshire)

As I recall, it was pointed out in Committee that Maria Coleman's scheme provides her with significant additional fee income. Does the hon. Gentleman not think that vested professional interests are involved, in order to boost their earnings?

David Kidney (Labour, Stafford)

The extra money is of course for the inspectors. However, the Government's scheme makes provision for inspectors, so that is not a consideration. What is a consideration is that under the current system, several buyers incur the same costs for one property, yet only one will buy it—again, that is wasteful—whereas one seller would incur the costs for everyone. I am sure that the market will develop systems to enable the seller to put off repayment of the costs until the transaction has concluded, as happens with the voluntary scheme.

As the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) rightly said, there are two problems: shelf life and the sale not proceeding. Here, the Government have clearly decided to grit their teeth and see things through. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman mentioned my discussion in Committee of electronic home information packs, which will cut costs and time yet further. I certainly support the registration of estate agents to make sure that they perform their part of the scheme competently.

At the moment, only one in five buyers purchases a house—at huge expense; indeed, it is the greatest investment of their lives—with a surveyor's report that is equivalent to, or better than, a home buyer's report and valuation. Four out of five do not obtain a report of that standard. Most buyers purchasing with a mortgage rely instead on the lender's survey and report. There are three levels of survey: a basic valuation of a property; a home buyer's report and valuation; and a full structural report. Some 80 to 90 per cent. of buyers with a mortgage rely on a basic valuation. They are paying, so they choose the cheapest.

Someone else obtains the report, but it is the buyers who rely on it. It is worth pointing out that when things go wrong with the report, buyers sue the valuers. That will help to reassure hon. Members that under the Government's scheme, there will be a remedy. In fact, a few lenders refuse to disclose the report in order to avoid litigation risk to themselves and their valuers. Thus some people pay for the basic valuation report, do not get to see it, but carry on and buy their homes. Basic valuation reports clearly involve shorter time inspections and are for a different purpose; they are not what buyers require when making such a huge investment. Most lenders' valuers carry out physical inspections in making those reports, but in recent years there have been a few examples of fast-tracking, which some call desk-top evaluations or drive-by evaluations. Such practices are much more common in the United States of America.

There are legitimate concerns about the number of inspectors and their training, the presence of their indemnity insurance, and the cost of the infrastructure and implementation plan, but those are all practicalities. They must be got right, but they do not amount to objections to the principles, which concern transparency, certainty, consumer protection and consumer satisfaction.

A Consumers Association survey of more than 1,000 adults at the end of last year found that 82 per cent. thought that home information packs would be "very useful" and 13 per cent. "fairly useful"—95 per cent. in total. The Office of the Deputy Prime Minister report on "Piloting the Home Condition Report", published in February this year, found that the majority of those taking part—sellers, buyers, estate agents, conveyancers and inspectors—liked the idea of a home condition report and found it easy to understand. The report said:

"Most sellers and buyers considered the report to be accurate and independent."

It really is a good scheme, which has had all the right preparations and a long lead-in time, as the Minister has announced. The scheme will be a success.

Sir Sydney Chapman (Conservative, Chipping Barnet)

I shall be brief, as much of what I wanted to say has already been covered by my hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) and, indeed, by the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey).

The crucial question is whether the proposal for home improvement packs will streamline the buying and selling of a home, or be just an additional bureaucratic cost. As my hon. Friend explained, the cost is likely to be in the order of £600 and perhaps more. I am willing to take an even bet with anyone that if it were £600 in the first year, it would increase by 50 per cent. within five years. That is an aside, but if we are to introduce a radically new proposal, we must think about costs.

I want to raise two issues. First, some people in the market need to sell their home quickly because an emergency has occurred. Will the new scheme help to deal with that problem? Secondly, as my hon. Friend the Member for Poole mentioned, there are problems with houses of very low value. We tend to think, quite rightly, that the cost of buying is going up and up. I know that in the three most northern regions in England, the average cost of a house has now hit the six-figure barrier—more than £100,000. The average cost of a home in London, though, is more than £250,000. There is no problem there. The problem arises generally in parts of the north where housing is very cheap because, for one reason or another, it is virtually unsellable. Various Government amendments and new clauses will change the Bill, but I hope that the scheme that results will bear in mind that particular problem.

All in all, it is a radically new proposal and genuine arguments exist on both sides of the issue. It would be a foolish person who denied that some of the arguments for introducing HIPs were compelling, but, equally, there are opposing arguments. I am bound to say, as an honorary member of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors—I am not a fellow and I have no financial interest—that we should err on the cautious side and introduce the scheme on a voluntary basis first. If it proved successful, it could then be extended.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

I regret having to rise to speak when I know that other hon. Members want to enter the debate, but it is wholly appropriate that I respond to points raised in the debate so far.

I shall start by responding to two specific questions. The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) intervened on my speech to ask how new clause 13 would enable the seller or agent to be certain of the identity of a person to whom a pack was given. The precise answer is that it would not. The position will remain as at present. If the seller is concerned, conditions can be attached, but our conviction is that most sellers will not be concerned. A propos the same new clause, the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) asked what the charge for a copy of the pack covers, and the answer is, the cost of the copy and the documents requested.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Mr. Kidney)—also known as my guru—spoke eloquently on this subject. I suspect that we shall hear from him again, and those of us who are early-morning listeners to Radio 4 heard him before 7 o'clock this morning.

I want to deal with those amendments that would introduce a voluntary home information pack system, rather than the compulsory system that is proposed. I must resist them. As I have said repeatedly, a voluntary HIP system would essentially continue the shambolic mess that we have at present. It would allow sellers to avoid the duties by ensuring that the marketing material made it clear that the property was being sold without a pack. Going down that road would lead us to the worst of all worlds.

HIPs need to be compulsory to ensure that everyone benefits from them. We are in no doubt about that: voluntary arrangements simply would not work. It is inevitable that, given the choice, some sellers—perhaps a measurable proportion—would choose to market their homes without an HIP. They might do that in an attempt to avoid costs, or in the hope that they might avoid having to disclose information, for example about a problem with the condition of the property that an HIP would identify. That would be unfair to buyers who had provided a pack for their own sale.

More harmfully, the amendments would result in an unsatisfactory two-track process, in which sales without packs would slow down connected sales with packs. In a chain, that would cancel out the very benefits that the Bill seeks to achieve. We would end up with a system that fostered waste, uncertainty and delay—the very opposite of the Government's intentions. There is no scope for relaxing the mandatory nature of the duties if we want to improve the efficiency of the housing market and protect the interests of all home buyers and sellers.

I turn to new clause 32, moved—also very eloquently—by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts). He got in very early with the joke about politicians versus estate agents that will have been in the front of hon. Members' minds when considering this matter.

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Conservative, Cotswold)

Will the Minister give way?

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

No. I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman because, in due course and as rapidly as possible, I want to deal with a point that he raised in the debate.

The licensing of estate agents is, quite rightly, of considerable interest. This debate is very timely, following the recent report from the Office of Fair Trading, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe alluded, and the even more recent publications by Which? and the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors.

The issues debated today in relation to new clause 32 will be of even greater significance when HIPs are introduced, as many hon. Members observed. Estate agents will have a pivotal role in delivering HIPs to their seller clients and to the home-buying public. HIPs will cover a range of documents and information that are currently outside the marketing role that agents perform. That means that estate agents will need to be more professional and have a better knowledge and understanding of all aspects of the process of buying and selling homes. It is essential to the smooth and successful introduction of HIPs that estate agents rise to this challenge, as the RICS and the National Association of Estate Agents recognise.

I therefore sympathise with the intentions behind new clause 32, but hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe will appreciate that I am unable to accept it.

The OFT has published a market study report on estate agents that includes recommendations about the future regulation of the industry. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry is considering the report's recommendations and aims to publish a response within 90 days. Ministers and officials at the Department of Trade and Industry are meeting estate agents' representative groups, consumer groups and other interested parties to help inform the Government response. I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe that my Department is very much involved with this process. I hope that he will be prepared to await the Government's response to the OFT report. In the light of that, I invite him to withdraw his new clause.

Amendment No. 114 was referred to by the hon. Members for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas) and for Kingston and Surbiton, and by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe. The hon. Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown) said that it was the most crucial amendment of the lot.

It would specify that a home inspector's indemnity insurance is "adequate and appropriate". The certification scheme will determine a suitable level of cover. The criteria against which the Secretary of State will approve the certification scheme, or schemes, will ensure that that issue will be properly addressed, taking into account the prevailing conditions at the time.

Clause 14(5) provides that the Secretary of State cannot approve a certification scheme unless the members of the scheme have in force suitable indemnity insurance. The amendment in question would substitute "adequate and appropriate" for "suitable". It goes without saying that the Secretary of State would not approve a scheme if the insurance provisions were not "adequate and appropriate". It is not necessary to spell that out in the Bill.

Amendment No. 115, tabled by the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton, would specify in the Bill that sellers, buyers and lenders can bring proceedings in respect of a home condition report on which they had relied. That is unnecessary, as those rights will be provided for. Clause 143(8) clearly signposts that intention. In relation to prescribed documents, that clause enables the Secretary of State to impose a requirement that three specified categories of person be able to enforce the terms of the contract under which the document is prepared. That is intended to ensure that buyers and lenders, as well as sellers, can rely on the contents of the pack, including the home condition report.

It being three and three quarter hours after the commencement of proceedings on the programme motion, Madam Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].

Question agreed to.

Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill

Madam Deputy Speaker then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour.

Clause 137 — Duty to have a home information pack

Clause 136 — Application of sections 137 to 139

Clause 138 — Duty to provide copy of home information pack on request

Clause 150 — Restrictions on disclosure or use of home information pack

Clause 154 — Interpretation Of Part 5

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Earlier, in points of order, the Foreign Secretary promised further to clarify his remarks about Sir Jeremy Greenstock not receiving the Red Cross report. Yesterday, of course, the Defence Secretary said that he had done so. The Foreign Secretary said that he would come to the House at either 4 o'clock or 7 o'clock to do so. Have you had any firm indication that he will definitely come here at 7 o'clock to make an oral statement clarifying those remarks?

Sylvia Heal (Deputy Speaker, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)

I am aware of the right hon. Gentleman's comments, but I am not aware, and have had no message, that a Minister will come to the House. I am sure, however, that the hon. Gentleman appreciates that that is not strictly a point of order for the Chair but a matter for Ministers to decide.

New Clause 8 — Exceptions to the right to buy: determination whether exception for dwelling-house suitable for elderly persons applies

Yvette Cooper (Labour, Pontefract and Castleford)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Sylvia Heal (Deputy Speaker, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government new clause 9—Right to buy: claim terminated by demolition notice.

Government new clause 10—Landlord's notice to complete.

Government new clause 11—Right to buy: suspension by court order.

Government new clause 12—Right of assured tenant to acquire dwelling not affected by collective enfranchisement.

New clause 18—Market Plan for right to buy sales—

'(1) To monitor sales resulting from right to buy, local authorities will be required to formulate and publish publicly a yearly marketing plan for right to buy sales.

(2) The marketing plan will include:

(a) figures on the number of properties sold through the right to buy scheme in the last 12 months;

(b) a target figure for the number of properties to be sold through the right to buy scheme in the coming 12 months;

(c) plans for how to achieve (b).'.

Government amendments Nos. 70 and 71.

Amendment No. 116, in page 106, line 18, leave out '18', and insert '36'.

Amendment No. 117, in page 106, line 21, leave out '18', and insert '36'.

Amendment No. 94, in page 108, line 12, at end insert—

'16 The Right to Buy does not apply in a rural area if the area has been exempted by regulations made by the Secretary of State.'.

Government amendments Nos. 72 to 74 and 26.

Yvette Cooper (Labour, Pontefract and Castleford)

I shall confine my remarks to the Government amendments and new clauses.

Paragraph 11 of schedule 5 to the Housing Act 1985 provides that a landlord may deny tenants the right to buy if the home is particularly suitable for occupation by elderly people. It also provides that tenants may appeal to the Secretary of State if they are denied the right to buy on those grounds. The number of such appeals has risen in recent years to more than 400 in 2003, with 20 to 25 per cent. being successful, enabling the tenants to buy their homes, usually because all the relevant factors have not been taken into account or because local circumstances have changed. To help landlords and tenants, we will shortly consult stakeholders on ways of clarifying and improving the guidance issued in 1993.

New clause 8 transfers the jurisdiction for determining appeals of this kind by tenants living in England from the Secretary of State to a residential property tribunal. That will make no substantive difference to the determination of appeals. We do not propose to change the statutory rules in paragraph 11 that determine whether a property is particularly suitable for occupation by elderly persons. Determinations by a residential property tribunal will be subject to judicial review, as are those of the Secretary of State at present. That will have the benefit of making the process more transparent and bringing together housing and related appeals and determinations under a single jurisdiction, and will over time afford opportunities for greater efficiency. The National Assembly for Wales will assess the position there independently.

On Government new clause 9 and Government amendment No. 71, there has been concern in local communities and in the House about people speculating on regeneration and demolition projects and exercising the right to buy purely to make a profit out of compulsory purchase orders, increasing the cost of regeneration and demolition schemes and also threatening their viability. Clause 158 adds to the exceptions that apply to the right to buy under schedule 5 of the Housing Act 1985 the provision that the right to buy "does not arise" where a demolition notice is in force stating that the landlord intends to demolish the property during the next 18 months. That means that no new claim for the right to buy can be made in relation to such properties. The aim is to address an existing loophole.

It has been suggested that, as worded, the clause could fail in its effect, because an advertisement placed by a landlord to the effect that he intended to demolish a building could persuade a tenant to apply for the right to buy before any demolition notice had been served. The wording in clause 158 does not make it sufficiently clear that existing claims as well as future claims should be covered. We do not want to create a mad race between people trying to get in a right to buy application and the serving of a demolition notice just to address the loophole. New clause 9 therefore makes it clear that a demolition notice properly served in accordance with the requirements of clause 158 will bring to an end any outstanding right to buy application in respect of the property in question.

We recognise that tenants may have put in right-to-buy applications at a much earlier stage in good faith, believing that they would proceed, and may incur fees and professional costs and expenses. The new clause therefore also provides for compensation to be paid in respect of any such expenditure that has been reasonably incurred in respect of a right-to-buy claim established before a demolition notice comes into force. Amendment No. 71 amends clause 158 so that a demolition notice will have to explain the right to compensation and how it may be exercised.

Government new clause 10 tackles another form of exploitation of the right to buy rules by companies and tenants. Under the Housing Act 1985, landlords may impose a timetable on tenants who are perceived to be delaying the purchase of their homes under the right-to-buy scheme. A landlord may serve a first notice to complete under section 140 of the Act, and then a second notice to complete and subsequent requirements. If the tenant does not comply with these notices, the right-to-buy application is deemed to have been withdrawn, but only after a minimum of 16 months can any sanction be imposed upon the tenant. If there are other matters outstanding—perhaps a dispute about the value of the property—it can be delayed further.

That can mean that, in a rising property market, the longer a tenant waits, the less he will pay for the property in real terms. The opposite, however, is true for the landlord, who has to sell the property at a price that is increasingly lower than its market value at the time of completion, and has to incur the expense of chasing a tenant who is delaying matters deliberately. In exceptional cases, that has allowed tenants, by reselling quickly, to make a substantial profit even after repaying some or all of their right-to-buy discount. By contrast, section 153A of the Housing Act 1985 allows a tenant to take action against a slow landlord much more swiftly. Tenants have at least 16 months to complete their purchase, while landlords face a financial penalty if they delay the process for more than one month. The new clause attempts to shift the balance so that, instead of having to wait for at least 12 months, a landlord can serve a first notice to complete after three months, if they wish. It still gives the tenant more time than the landlord, it brings the total time in line with the private sector and it addresses a loophole that people have exploited.

Government new clause 11 gives the landlord of secure tenants a further weapon by which to tackle antisocial behaviour. In some instances, the right-to-buy scheme gives tenants who behave antisocially a means of escaping the consequences of their behaviour by purchasing their home. In such cases, the landlord cannot use the same measures over the tenant and the property, which is clearly an unintended consequence.

New clause 11 enables landlords of secure tenants to seek an order suspending the right to buy for a specified period in respect of the tenancy on the ground of antisocial behaviour. The court may grant a suspension order only if it is satisfied that the tenant or a person residing in or visiting the property has engaged in, or threatened to engage in, antisocial behaviour, and that it is reasonable to make the order. A suspension order will end any existing applications and prevent any new applications from being made during the period specified by the court, but it will not impact on the accumulation of discount.

Government amendments Nos. 72 and 73 further strengthen the measures to combat antisocial behaviour by allowing landlords not to complete a right-to-buy claim if an order to suspend it is pending. Government amendment No. 74 contains a provision similar to that in clause 167 that allows right-to-buy tenants to apply for the right to acquire or the preserved right to buy, which means that their landlords can also access the information that they require to carry out their functions under clause 166.

Government new clause 12 seeks to remedy an unintended consequence of leasehold legislation that has only just come to light. Under the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development Act 1993, qualifying tenants of flats were given rights to purchase the freehold collectively, with a mandatory leaseback to the housing association of remaining rented flats. The unintended consequence is that RSL assured tenants stand to lose their statutory right to acquire their rented home if others in a block of flats have exercised their right to enfranchisement. So far, no cases in which a tenant has lost their right to acquire their rented property have come to our attention, but the Housing Corporation notified us about the problem, and, because the change is recent and we anticipate future cases, we think it right to act now.

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Conservative, Cotswold)

New clauses 8 to 10 restrict a person's right to buy. What steps will be taken to notify people who fall within those new clauses that their rights are being restricted? The matter is clearly complicated, and, as with other legislation on the Rent Acts, I hope that any notice sent to tenants will include a bold warning stating that their rights are being restricted and that if they have any doubts about the meaning of the notice they should consult a citizens advice bureau.

Yvette Cooper (Labour, Pontefract and Castleford)

New clause 8 does not restrict the right to buy. The provisions in new clause 9 refer to demolition notices, which must explain the right to compensation. They require that accurate information be given to tenants and I reassure the hon. Gentleman that we expect appropriate information to be given to tenants in all such cases. At a later stage, I will be happy further to discuss with him exactly what kinds of information will be available for tenants under each of those clauses. As he rightly says, the matter is complex because each new clause has a different objective, and some of them—for example, new clause 12—protect the right to acquire or the right to buy.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The new clauses that relate to antisocial behaviour and the right to buy are obviously crucial to the Government's antisocial behaviour strategies. In light of the Westminster council homes scandal, can the Minister assure us that the safeguards will be sufficient to prevent disreputable local authorities from socially engineering the tenants who buy properties in particular areas? In that regard, what sort of evidence would be needed to suspend the right to buy in a court case—is it a matter of civil proof or of criminal proof?

Yvette Cooper (Labour, Pontefract and Castleford)

The hon. Gentleman is right to say that we need to prevent terrible behaviour of the kind that took place in Westminster. We are trying to safeguard the rights of local communities who are struggling with antisocial behaviour. Under the new clause, landlords will need to seek an order to suspend on the ground of antisocial behaviour, for a specified period, the right to buy in respect of the tenancy. The landlord will not be able to do that arbitrarily, but will need to go to court and the court will grant a suspension order only if it is satisfied that antisocial or threatening behaviour is taking place and that the request is reasonable. The court will need to take a series of factors into account, including whether it is desirable for the property to be managed by the landlord during the suspension period.

Some of the other amendments are about suspending the right to buy, or allowing landlords not to complete the right to buy, if other antisocial behaviour measures are already being pursued. Through the new clause, we are trying to ensure that the right to buy does not become a get-out clause that allows antisocial tenants to subvert the other measures that have been introduced to tackle antisocial behaviour. By stipulating that the decision is for the courts, not for local authorities, we have taken care to ensure that, in situations where, in effect, a tenant's property rights are at stake, a fair process is gone through in achieving our aim of dealing with antisocial behaviour.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

May I press my hon. Friend on the question that the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr. Thomas) asked about the burden of proof in such cases? Although I strongly support the idea that people who are given the right to buy must be responsible tenants and that we should suspend that right if they are being irresponsible through antisocial behaviour, I also believe that the burden of proof should be the same as it is for antisocial behaviour orders—that is, civil, not criminal.

Yvette Cooper (Labour, Pontefract and Castleford)

I can assure my hon. Friend that in such circumstances the right to buy will be suspended only for a specified period. We are not trying arbitrarily to impose an unfair penalty, but to give local authorities more tools to deal with antisocial behaviour. The new clause is very much in line with our approach towards antisocial behaviour throughout the Bill, which is to say that we need to give landlords more opportunities to address the problem while ensuring that people's rights are properly protected, that they get a fair hearing and that they are treated reasonably in the circumstances. That is why the role of the court is an important safeguard.

I turn to amendment No. 70. Under section 119 of the Housing Act 1985, a secure tenant does not qualify for the right to buy until they have spent two years as a public sector tenant. Clause 157 extends that qualifying period to five years. It has been suggested that that will disadvantage tenants who take up a new social tenancy, whether it be a secure tenancy or an assured tenancy—for example, when they move from one social housing property to another. We do not intend to penalise existing social tenants who take up new social tenancies by making them wait longer for the right to buy. This minor and technical amendment is designed to avoid such a situation arising and to ensure that tenancies that began before the day on which clause 157 comes into effect will still be subject to the present two-year qualifying period.

I ask the House to support the Government new clauses and amendments.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

We now move to the part of the Bill that deals with the right to buy, a subject that was aired in Committee and which, appropriately, we want to say a few words about today. I particularly want to speak to new clause 18, which is intended to provide a shot in the arm for the important principle of the right to buy. The whole House will be familiar with the famous words of Benjamin Disraeli, when he said that the Conservative party was

"only in its proper position when it represents popular principles. Then it is truly irresistible . . . It necessarily depends upon enlarged sympathies and noble aspirations".

There can be no more noble an aspiration than the desire to own one's home and the right to buy has played an important part in the fulfilment of that aspiration since it was introduced.

In preparing for this debate, I glanced at the figures for right-to-buy sales since 1980, and I was delighted to learn that around 1.6 million properties have been sold under the scheme. None of that would have taken place without the energy and commitment of the Conservative Government who introduced that important legislation.

Karen Buck (Labour, Regent's Park and Kensington North)

rose—

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

I will give way to the hon. Lady in a moment, but before I do, perhaps I should say that, although she might be a noble exception, most of those on the Labour Benches are typically either reluctant converts to the cause of the right to buy, or nakedly hostile to it. Perhaps she will tell me which she is.

Karen Buck (Labour, Regent's Park and Kensington North)

I was prompted by the hon. Gentleman's statement that there is no nobler aim than that of encouraging home ownership. Will he perhaps revise that opinion and say that we should instead aspire to ensuring a decent home for all? His party's policy comes into conflict with that more noble objective in that it has never addressed the fact that the right to buy can and does conflict with the objective of providing homes for all, in high-demand areas. Will he say something about the unmet housing needs that have been created in part by the pressure from the right to buy?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

Home ownership is a noble aspiration not simply because it is a matter of acquiring a piece of property. The home is evocative of security, warmth, certainty and stability. It is the place to which we all return at the end of the day, so one should not be dismissive of the aspiration to own a home. However, the hon. Lady makes a good point when she says that it is important to have a decent social housing stock. That is why I know that she will join me in condemning this Government for their appalling record on social house building. This Government have built only about half the number of social houses that the last Conservative Government built.

The hon. Lady is also right to say that the measures in the Bill do little to address either my concerns about the pace of the right to buy or her more fundamental concerns about the principle itself. She is right that we need a balanced housing programme and that every Briton deserves the right to live in a warm, secure, stable home that is fit for its purpose and part of a strong and sustainable community. I agree with her entirely on that, but I do not believe that such aspirations are incompatible with the right-to-buy policy.

Andrew Love (Labour/Co-operative, Edmonton)

rose—

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

rose—

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

I will give way, although I do not want to be diverted down a path that you will not let me follow, Mr. Deputy Speaker. However, I am trying, as ever, to be generous to Labour Members.

Andrew Love (Labour/Co-operative, Edmonton)

The hon. Gentleman did not actually answer the question put to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Regent's Park and Kensington, North (Ms Buck). Let me ask him a much simpler one: is it still the Opposition's policy to extend the right to buy to the registered social landlord sector, and what implications does he think that that would have for affordable accommodation?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

I tell the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr. Love) unequivocally that it is our intention to maintain the policy. There has been no party policy change on the right to buy, but it is important to consider other ways in which to provide high quality social housing. It is also important to create a more fluid system, whereby people move more easily from rented to market housing. One of the problems with the right to buy is that many long-standing council tenants become the long-standing owners of the properties that they purchase and do not move to market housing. That has diminished local authorities' housing stock. That was a fair point, which both the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Regent's Park and Kensington, North (Ms Buck) made.

It is not beyond the wit of man to create an environment where people can aspire to ownership and in which a more fluid market can exist. The hon. Gentleman will know about the possibility of transferable discounts, which the previous Government introduced and the current Government maintain. They allow people to fulfil their aspiration to become home owners and lead to a more fluid market. We are disappointed that the Bill gives that no shot in the arm.

From memory, there were approximately 897 cases of people taking up the opportunity through a transferable discount to move from a rented to a market house in 2002. That is a miserable figure when compared with the total number of people who aspire to own their homes. Seventy per cent. currently own their homes and more than 80 per cent. would like to do so. Any responsible Government or party has a duty to ensure that those people have a realistic prospect of achieving that aspiration. Because the hon. Member for Edmonton is a caring and decent man, I know that he would agree with that. On that happy note, I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown).

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Conservative, Cotswold)

Will my hon. Friend explain to Labour Members who are so hostile to the right to buy why their Government preside over the highest number of homeless people in the history of this country?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

I do not want to labour the point about the Government's failure in social house building. I have mentioned it twice already and this is the third occasion. To refer to it four times would be excessive. The Minister, the Under-Secretary and the whole Front-Bench team bear the burden heavily. It must be engraved on their hearts that, as homelessness increases, their record on social house building worsens. We should move on swiftly to avoid causing any further embarrassment to Government Front-Benchers.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

I know that the hon. Gentleman has visited my constituency, because he wrote and told me about it when he was a spokesman on agriculture. He may remember from that visit that there is an acute shortage of affordable housing in my area, largely created by the right to buy and the inability to find anywhere in our beautiful natural environment to build any more housing. Is not the effect of the right-to-buy policy on our rural areas, where families are moving out and schools and post offices are closing, written on his heart? Schools and post offices cannot be sustained because of the lack of social and affordable housing that the Conservative party created.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

It is flattering that the hon. Gentleman remembers my visit to his constituency. I, too, remember it and I can tell him that the farmers whom I met were complimentary about him, as I was. I advised them not to vote for him and they said that, although they liked him, they did not like him enough to do that. However, they highlighted some of the challenges that faced the area. I know that he feels deeply about the availability of social housing in rural communities. So do I, given the sort of seat that I represent.

The hon. Gentleman knows that the right to buy is not available to people in small rural communities. He will also know that any Government need to have a policy that is targeted at the problem that he highlights. I hope that that applies to this Government but it certainly applies to the next Conservative Government. If one builds houses for renting or affordable market houses and simply sucks people in from outside the community rather than providing houses for people who need to work or have families there, one does not solve the problem.

Squaring that will be a challenge for the Opposition when we are in government. I am acutely aware of that. One method, to which I believe that the hon. Gentleman will be sympathetic, is the exceptions policy. I believe that it is under threat; perhaps the Minister will give us an assurance today that it is not. I do not want that avenue to be removed from the communities that the hon. Gentleman described.

Matthew Green (Liberal Democrat, Ludlow)

rose—

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

I want to get back on stream, but it would be discourteous not to give way to a representative of the minor party before doing so.

Matthew Green (Liberal Democrat, Ludlow)

The hon. Gentleman says that the right to buy does not apply in rural areas, but he is becoming confused. When the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry) was a Minister, he got an exemption for the right to acquire, which is a slightly different right that is not used anything like as often as the right to buy. The right to buy still applies in rural areas. It has decimated the stock in my area just like any other.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

The hon. Gentleman will no doubt be looking carefully at the policies that we intend to introduce, which will assist areas such as his in the provision of high-quality social housing and, indeed, affordable market housing. When we do so, I know that he, in the spirit in which he always greets such things, will support us in his constituency and, I hope, elsewhere.

Back to the Bill, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You have been, if I may say so, characteristically generous in allowing a slightly broader discussion than I had perhaps originally intended. However, I wanted to be generous to Labour Members and I hope that we have been able to explore some issues of principle. Out of that has come living proof of my suggestion that Labour Members are reluctant converts to the right to buy. People who have exercised, or who hope to exercise, that right will have listened to the tone of their remarks very carefully. I do not want to be more critical than that, and I shall move on to our new clause.

There is a problem with the right to buy: although it has been a great success, there has been some tailing-off of uptake. That is a problem, as one wants everyone with the aspiration that I described to see it fulfilled. Another is abuse. In Committee, I made it clear that we have no truck with abuse of the right to buy, and it is indeed right and proper that measures be introduced to deal with it. It is not appropriate for a noble aspiration, as I described it, to be turned into a way of abusing the system for people who are behaving unscrupulously.

The Government have properly recognised that and introduced changes, some of which we welcome. However, consistent with the spirit and intention of the original right to buy legislation, it is important that we simultaneously put proper demands on local authorities that may not be carrying out their proper obligations in respect of the right to buy as enthusiastically as they might.

It is clear from a study of local authorities across the country that some drive the right to buy with enthusiasm while others are reticent in encouraging people to take it up. That can involve the speed with which they deal with inquiries, how they market their local policy and how they value their properties. The Minister will know that a study commissioned by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister found that, in more than a third of appeals against the price of a property valued by the council in the case of a right-to-buy application, the price tag was cut by more than 10 per cent. Indeed, more than three quarters of tenants who purchased from their council under the right-to-buy scheme secured a price reduction.

There is a real problem with pricing not being accurate and that possibly being a disincentive to people who do not appeal. There will be people who see the price and think, "I can't afford that." They will turn back at that stage while those who appeal clearly get a positive result in the vast majority of cases. There is a problem with the right to buy and our new clause seeks to deal with it by proposing that local authorities

"be required to formulate and publish publicly a yearly marketing plan for right to buy sales."

The plan would include targets on the number of properties that the authority planned to sell and how many it had sold, as well as how it would achieve that target. That seems to me a sensible, constructive and measured way to encourage local authorities to think creatively about how to deal with the right to buy. Few local authorities would think that it could not be taken on board at small cost. It would not be a massive exercise, because good local authorities are doing much of that job anyway.

Alan Whitehead (Labour, Southampton, Test)

I am following the hon. Gentleman's argument carefully. Would not such a plan interfere with the market?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

I did not turn a deaf ear to the question. I did not hear it clearly. The truth of the matter, as the hon. Gentleman knows, is that the market is not perfect. [Hon. Members: "Oh."] Let me explain, for the benefit of those Members who are under the illusion that Tories believe that the market is ever right, that that has nothing to do with authentic Tory philosophy. The Tory party, throughout its history, has understood that there needs to be a proper balance between the intervention of government and other agencies and the free market. That is not a revelation. It is the view that has inspired the party of Disraeli, Shaftesbury and Wilberforce—[Laughter.]

The hon. Member for Leeds, West (Mr. Battle) is laughing. He will know that most of the 19th-century reforms were introduced and completed by Conservative Administrations against fierce opposition from the Liberal party. In the 20th century, too, Conservative Administrations introduced many measures, including the right to buy, which aided social mobility and extended opportunity to people who would otherwise not have been able to enjoy it and recognised that government must sometimes stimulate, encourage and temper the market. There is nothing odd about that.

Indeed, one might even argue—I know that there is a certain hostility from some on the Labour Benches towards their Front Bench—that it is not the Tory party but the current leadership of the Labour party that has been seduced by the glitz and glamour of power and money. The hon. Gentleman should not therefore be so dismissive of the record—

Michael Lord (Deputy Speaker, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)

Order. The hon. Gentleman has already thanked me for my generosity. May I tell him that it is not limitless?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

I wondered at what point your generosity, Mr. Deputy Speaker, might begin to come to an end. We have now reached that important point.

The intention of the new clause is to assist local authorities in the pursuit of a proper purpose. The Government have properly introduced a series of measures in Committee and today aim to curb the abuses of right to buy, with which we have no problem. In that spirit, I hope that they will support the new clause and so provide the balance that is absolutely necessary if the great success of the right to buy is to continue into the future.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

I want to speak to amendment No. 94, which I tabled, and to make some points as an antidote to the contribution of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken.

I was a member of a Labour authority in the early 1980s that pre-empted the Conservative party in terms of the right to buy. The one difference was that for every council house that was sold, we built another one to replace it. That must be the only way in which a sensible right to buy can ever be afforded.

We have had a useful debate already in terms of the implications of the right to buy. In Committee, an attempt was made to consider further exemption on the right to buy where there were rural populations of less than 3,000. I make no apology for reintroducing that issue, because the Government must recognise that the problem of housing is not just an urban one but very much a rural one.

Over the last five years alone, we have sold off some 40,000 council properties. That has happened at a cost. Yes, the right to buy is about giving the individual choice and the opportunity to buy the home in which he or she lives, but we also know of the damage done to others whom it prevents from living in rural areas. It is pleasing that amendment No. 94, which has been floating around for some time, is supported by both the Local Government Association and Shelter. They feel strongly that something must be done about the growing problem of not just homelessness but lack of accessibility. Our rural communities are being socially cleansed, in the sense that people on lower incomes can no longer afford to live in those areas.

Karen Buck (Labour, Regent's Park and Kensington North)

Does my hon. Friend agree that the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) was wrong in his analysis of the problems connected with the right to buy? My hon. Friend is right about what is happening in rural areas, and indeed in urban areas such as mine. When properties have been sold and then sold on, those in a position to buy them are in a different category in terms of purchasing power and housing need. That leaves a much larger pool of people in true housing need. Properties in my constituency that were originally sold under the right to buy are now being sold for £350,000, and are thus completely beyond the reach of people who need affordable homes.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

I agree, and the problems affecting London also affect the more expensive parts of the south. On-selling often moves properties completely out of the affordable housing bracket—properties that have already been moved out of the social housing bracket.

The amendment happens to chime with a recommendation in the report produced by the rural group of Labour Members, which I am proud to chair. The report, which was well received by the Front Bench, made a number of suggestions that I feel should be pursued. We said, for instance,

"The right to buy from councils or RSLs should not be available to tenants in settlements of below 3,000. They concede that this 'may cause difficulties for those who already have this right', but argue that, 'as people realise the effect of the right to buy on their own families, they will understand why it may be withdrawn'."

We were quite cheered by the thought that, as the Government recognised, there were places in which—on a purely local, discretionary basis—the right to buy had reached its natural conclusion. Surprisingly, however, few of the 26 areas that were given an opportunity to consider how they might restrict the right were deemed to be rural. We want to extend the recognition that we now live in very different times.

As I have said, there is one thing worse than the removal of people's ability to buy their existing homes: the fact that they are no longer able to live in many rural areas. This is all about priorities, and about ensuring that we have a mixed rural population. That population is already under great strain in the south, and unless we do something dramatic the situation will worsen.

There are alternatives, and the Government are considering them. One option is Homebuy; another is the system of community land trusts, which I favour. We will be creative, and we will be innovative. The simple fact, however, is that such schemes take time to bring about, whereas the crisis is real and happening now. I hope that my hon. Friends on the Front Bench will consider carefully what we are suggesting. We are not saying that the right to buy should go; we in rural areas are not unreconstructed Stalinists, we are just people who deal with our constituents.

The issue is no longer one on which the Labour party stands in isolation. I gather that the Liberal Democrats moved an amendment on this point in Committee, and there are many Conservatives who are now beginning to consider a similar position because of the way in which we have seen our communities change as a result of the right to buy—and in this case, change for the worse. I should make it very clear that this is a matter that should be left, with the support of the ministerial team, to local discretion. If local authorities feel that the right to buy has a rightful place in their housing policy, then let it continue, but if they have seen the problems of right to buy and feel strongly about them, it is only right and proper that they should be included in the group of 26 existing areas where the right to buy is further restricted.

I hope that Ministers are listening and that this debate will be continued not only here but in the other place when the Bill is considered there. The issue will not go away, and I make no apology for raising it. It is crucial. Anyone who knows anything about rural Britain at the moment knows that when Labour came to power, the No. 1 issue, without any doubt, was transport. Now that that issue has been addressed—not completely, but there are some improvements in transport—it has been overtaken, unfortunately, by housing. Anyone who does any research, or talks to lower-income constituents, will without doubt identify housing as the highest priority. I hope that Ministers take note, and that we can ensure that something is done on this vital issue.

Matthew Green (Liberal Democrat, Ludlow)

I shall attempt to be brief, because I know that we want to turn to other matters, but I cannot resist making a quick comment on the Conservatives' new clause 18, which is the "pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap" clause. It is an attempt to get councils to force through right-to-buy sales, and it is quite frankly barmy. Right to buy is right in some areas, but it works to the detriment of others. The hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) said that it should be left to local discretion, and that is exactly what should be done. No amendment has been tabled that makes that point, but it should really be up to a local authority to decide whether there should be any discount up to £36,000, in any area. That would solve many of the issues with which we are dealing.

I wish to speak to amendments Nos. 116 and 117. The Government have rightly acted to prevent people from using right to buy just before a regeneration scheme or demolition goes ahead, which they know is going to happen, so that they can receive compensation money. The Government are right to take that action, but they have specified a period of 18 months. My understanding, from talking to people who work on such schemes, is that the common lead-in time from the point at which a scheme is announced to the point at which it goes ahead is much nearer to three years. There is quite a lot of concern in the industry, for want of a better word—it is not really an industry—and from people who work in the field that an 18-month period is insufficient. We have suggested a period of 36 months, which would be the three years that those people have mentioned. I ask the Minister to look closely at that time period, because the professionals who work in the field say that it is insufficient and that there will be problems as a result. The action is absolutely right, but the Government need to consider the time frame.

I firmly endorse amendment No. 94, ably moved by the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew). Right to buy has decimated the housing stock in rural areas. In my constituency, it has caused tremendous problems of loss of social housing stock that cannot be easily replaced, and I commend the hon. Gentleman for tabling the amendment. I raised that point in Committee, and I hope that the Lords will look at it in detail and that the Government will act on it.

Perhaps the best route forward is to leave to local authority discretion whether or not there is a discount. That would be a simple way of dealing with the situation, rather than the current approach of central Government's deciding which are the deserving rural areas. The centre does not always know best; in fact, it rarely knows best. The matter should be left to local discretion. That is new localism, and it is in chime with what the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister is talking about.

I hope that the Government respond positively to the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Stroud, and I also hope that they extend the time period relating to demolition notices to 36 months.

Desmond Turner (Labour, Brighton, Kemptown)

I, too, will try to be brief, as I know that many other important new clauses follow mine. New clause 2 would give the Government enabling powers to bring in a national tenancy deposit scheme.

Michael Lord (Deputy Speaker, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)

Order.

Desmond Turner (Labour, Brighton, Kemptown)

I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I thought that we had finished the previous group of amendments.

Michael Lord (Deputy Speaker, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)

. We are dealing with new clause 8 and the related new clauses and amendments on the selection list. I do not know what the hon. Gentleman has chosen to speak to, but that is what we are dealing with. I call Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown.

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Conservative, Cotswold)

I think I know which group of amendments we are debating. The hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Dr. Turner) was anticipating a debate that is to come, and he will doubtless want to speak in it.

I intervened on the Minister earlier in respect of new clause 8 in particular. It is an eminently sensible provision which determines that houses especially suitable for elderly people should be exempt from the right to buy. We can all think of types of housing—terraced housing, bungalows, small houses and so on—that are particularly suitable for elderly people, and which should remain as such. That is fine in theory, but I am not sure that new clause 8 adequately informs those who live in houses that may or may not be so designated about what is happening to their right to buy. The Minister needs to provide more of an explanation than she provided in answer to my intervention.

When a Government fetter people's rights and take them away, they have a duty to explain to those people in simple terms what is happening to them. As with other notices in housing legislation, the information that such people will receive through the post will be complex. They should be told in no uncertain terms, through a warning on the notice, that if they are in any doubt as to what the notice means, they should consult a citizens advice bureau.

My neighbour the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) may have tabled his amendment No. 94 under a misapprehension. If he studies the law carefully, he will discover that under right-to-buy designation orders, it is currently within the Secretary of State's power to designate rural settlements of under 3,000 as exempt from the right to acquire. I accept that his amendment deals with the right to buy, and it may well be that right-to-buy legislation should be brought into line with that relating to the right to acquire. On thinking about it as I am speaking, the designation orders to which I referred do apply to the right to buy. Perhaps the Minister will clarify that point. As such, the hon. Gentleman's amendment is unnecessary.

In any case, it is worth putting on the record some misapprehensions about the right to buy. The average period of tenancy of all public housing in London is now 20 years and growing; in other parts of the country, it is at least 10 years and growing. The number of houses either in the council house or registered social landlord sector that become available is part of the housing problem. It is so important for the Government to build more affordable housing. If they want to solve the current acute homelessness and waiting list problems, the only way is to build more social housing.

The right to acquire has very little effect indeed, because it amounts to only a small proportion of our total built housing stock. If the Government—or, indeed, a future Conservative Government—were to amend the rules on right to buy so that the proceeds, instead of going to repay borrowing, were put back into building new social housing, much more money would be available to put back into the pool to build more social houses. That is what we should be doing.

I applaud the Government new clauses, particularly the provisions to deal with the scam whereby people immediately want to buy their homes when a demolition order is put in place. That loophole needed to be closed and I applaud the Government for tackling that.

I do not, however, applaud the Government's provisions for reducing discount, particularly in London. It is now becoming very difficult indeed to acquire a house in London, even with the discount that the Government currently apply. People used to apply for a discount under the right to buy in order to put down a deposit on their mortgage. Because the price of London houses is now so high, it is very difficult for anyone to use the right-to-buy provisions accordingly.

I hope that Government Members will not adopt a prehistoric socialist opposition to right to buy. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) said in ably opening the debate, it is the noblest ambition of all for someone to want to buy their own house. [Interruption.] One of the few ways in which people living in public sector housing are able to get on to the housing ladder is through right to buy. As my hon. Friend also said, we should be considering not only right to buy, but a whole range of imaginative schemes to help people on to the housing ladder.

I commend the Government new clauses and hope that the Government will in turn consider new clause 18 as a means of helping to speed up right to buy, which seems such anathema to Government Members. After all, if people own their own homes, it takes away their need for housing in the public sector, thereby making places available for people on the waiting list or the homeless. The current position is precarious because of the number of homeless people. I believe that opposition to right to buy will not help to solve the problem.

Yvette Cooper (Labour, Pontefract and Castleford)

I should like to respond to the various points raised in relation to this group of new clauses and amendments. It may be an appropriate tribute to the 25th anniversary of Baroness Thatcher's arrival in Downing street that the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) has abandoned her reverence for the free market and commitment to it in all circumstances. If only his party leader had been more inclined to agree with him and rather less enthusiastic about revering her legacy, the Conservatives might be doing rather better right now.

Amendments Nos. 116 and 117 express concern about demolition and regeneration. I recognise concerns in that respect, which is why we have introduced new clauses to ensure that issuing a demolition notice puts an end to existing right-to-buy claims that have already been submitted. We chose to make demolition notices last for 18 months in order to strike a reasonable balance and to discourage the sort of exploitation that has been mentioned. We also want to encourage local authorities and others to get on with the job so that tenants are not unfairly denied the right to buy either because the schemes are unviable or the agencies too slow in the process. Three years can be a long time to get round to demolishing a property, and for tenants to be left in uncertainty and unable to exercise the right to buy. However, the Bill already provides for the 18-month life of a demolition notice to be extended by the Secretary of State, on application by the landlord. We recognise that there will be cases in which regeneration is phased, for example, or where particular schemes take some time. In some cases, a decision may be made to demolish a series of properties in a particular order, even though it may take some time to get round to the phase of demolition that is at stake.

There is therefore flexibility in the existing provision. We will consider the matter further, but we think that the 18-month period is probably right at this stage. In view of that, I hope that the hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) will not press amendments Nos. 116 and 117.

Amendment No. 94, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew), would allow the Secretary of State to exempt rural areas entirely from the right to buy. Secure tenants in such an area would not have a right to buy as a result. We recognise that there are pressures on affordable housing in many rural areas, and my hon. Friend set out his concerns about his area very clearly, and made clear the need for affordable housing.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

Will the Minister confirm that there is no intention to change or abandon the exceptions policy?

Yvette Cooper (Labour, Pontefract and Castleford)

We have said that we intend to continue with that policy. I assume that the hon. Gentleman means the restrictions that apply to the seven national parks, and to the 37 areas of outstanding natural beauty.

Matthew Green (Liberal Democrat, Ludlow)

The exceptions policy is used in rural areas to allow affordable houses to be built outside building envelopes. It is currently being considered under one of the new planning policy statements. I should be delighted if the Minister would confirm that she is not about to end the exceptions policy.

Yvette Cooper (Labour, Pontefract and Castleford)

I shall clarify exactly what I mean. The Bill does not change the protection in place for the seven national parks, the 37 areas of outstanding natural beauty and the 30 areas designated as rural, for this purpose, by the Secretary of State. That covers about 40 per cent. of the land area of England. Under section 157 of the Housing Act 1985, landlords may place restrictions on the resale of homes sold under the right-to-buy scheme. Landlords can choose between requiring owners either to resell only to people who have lived or worked locally for three years or, if they prefer, to offer the property back to the former landlord.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

I want to be absolutely clear about this matter. The exceptions policy is the means by which small numbers of properties in rural communities have been built outside the building line. As the hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) said, it has proved very effective in developing houses in the sort of communities described by the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew). Will the Government stick with the policy, or are they going to abandon it?

Yvette Cooper (Labour, Pontefract and Castleford)

I hope that the hon. Gentleman will allow me to complete the point about landlords in the seven national parks, as I will then come to the point that he has just raised.

Clause 162 extends the right of first refusal to all other right-to-buy landlords, wherever they are. However, it explicitly retains the current system in the national parks and in areas of outstanding natural beauty and designated rural areas. Our intention is to continue with the present system.

The hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings asked about the broader issue of the exceptions policy. Our position has been made clear: we are sympathetic to the policy, which we consider to be important. It is subject to continuing consultation, but we hope to include it as part of a more flexible system. We will say more about the matter in due course, as I am not in a position to do so at the moment. We are aiming to achieve a more flexible approach that addresses the conflicting needs and differing pressures that arise in connection with housing issues.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

I do not want to get hung up on the difference between the exceptions policy and exemptions, but I hope that my hon. Friend will take it from me that the exceptions policy does not really have anything to do with the right to buy. There is a lot of evidence in rural areas that we have got all the land that we are going to get through the exceptions policy. We need to be much more creative, and much more dramatic, when it comes to dealing with the problems of rural homelessness.

Yvette Cooper (Labour, Pontefract and Castleford)

My hon. Friend is right, and I thank him for that clarification. My earlier lack of clarity stemmed in part from the fact that the exceptions policy has to do with planning, and is not directly related to the right to buy. As I have said, the Bill retains the existing approach to right to buy in the national parks and so on.

I want to deal with the points in connection with rural areas that arise from amendment No. 94. The Government do not believe that at this stage it would be appropriate to introduce complete bans on the right to buy in certain areas, as the amendment proposes. We need to strike a balance between respecting the aspirations of social tenants in rural areas to become home owners and the need to retain social housing for local people.

The House will know that we have reduced the maximum discounts available to tenants in certain areas. That has happened already in 41 areas of London and the south-east of England that are under the greatest housing pressure. In Committee, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning was asked whether maximum discounts might be an alternative approach in rural areas. He said that the Government recognised that housing pressures were driving up house prices in some rural areas. There is no intention of introducing across-the-board, blanket bans, and the Government are continuing to monitor the situation. I can therefore confirm that we will keep the question of maximum discounts under review.

We are also looking at further ways to increase the supply of affordable housing. We are seeking a more flexible approach that will ensure a fair balance for existing tenants and for people who will need affordable housing in the future. I therefore hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud will seek to withdraw amendment No. 94.

Finally, I want to deal with matters arising in connection with new clause 18, moved by the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings. By its nature, the right-to-buy scheme has always been demand led. A tenant who applies for it, who meets the qualifying criteria and whose home is not exempted, has the right to buy his home, and his landlord must sell it to him.

New clause 18 seems to want local authorities to promote and market the right to buy in a different way. It seems unlikely that qualifying tenants would be unaware of the right to buy. Section 104 of the Housing Act 1985 requires landlords to provide secure tenants with information about the provisions of the right-to-buy scheme. Also, there are an awful lot of advertisements on the telly at the moment promoting the right to buy. Various companies want to get involved with tenants as regards the right to buy, so it is surprising that the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings seems to suggest that people are not aware of their rights in that regard.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

I hope that the Minister will deal with the question of pricing that I raised. A report carried out by the College of Estate Management in Reading stated:

"The government is understood to be anxious that the findings of the report should be kept quiet for fear of prompting a rush of appeals."

If properties are regularly and routinely overvalued, that must be a considerable disincentive to people exercising the right to buy.

Yvette Cooper (Labour, Pontefract and Castleford)

Obviously, properties need to be appropriately valued. That is not something that the Government can be expected to address in legislation, especially at a time when house prices are changing. However, the hon. Gentleman's proposal that local authorities should market the right to buy in that way seems a little surprising. It would mean that local authorities would have to go to great lengths in terms of time and expense to prepare and update plans to market something that tenants have already made clear they want and are prepared to pay for. We expect there to be more than 60,000 completed right-to-buy sales in 2003–04, so I do not think that the proposal represents a worthwhile use of local authorities' time.

We are trying to achieve a balance. We want to give people a chance to get on the property ladder and to support their right to buy, but we also need to ensure that we clamp down on abuses and on the scams that have taken place. We also need to ensure that proper support is provided for affordable housing. We have doubled the level of investment that we inherited since 1997 and targeted more of that investment on areas of highest demand, which also tend to be the areas of highest cost. We cannot escape that fact. We do not think, however, that it is right for local authorities to have to set bureaucratic targets or develop marketing strategies. Nor do we think that it would be right to extend the right to buy to housing associations, because that would threaten their viability. If that viability had to be protected or compensation paid, it could cost £1 billion of public subsidy over three years.

For the reasons I have given, I urge hon. Members not to press their amendments.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 9 — Right to buy: claim terminated by demolition notice

New Clause 10 — Landlord's notice to complete

New Clause 11 — Right to buy: suspension by court order

New Clause 12 — Right of assured tenant to acquire dwelling not affected by collective enfranchisement

New Clause 2 — Tenancy Deposit Scheme (Regulation-Making Power)

Desmond Turner (Labour, Brighton, Kemptown)

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

I apologise for the earlier confusion. I was becoming anxious because time is running out so fast.

The new clause sets out enabling powers for the Government to introduce a national mandatory tenancy deposit scheme. I shall not detail the arguments in favour of such a scheme or the copious abuses that happen, but many millions of pounds are milked from tenants by unscrupulous landlords and letting agencies every year. Everyone, including respectable and responsible landlords associations, wants that abuse to be stopped.

Matthew Green (Liberal Democrat, Ludlow)

I remind the hon. Gentleman that good landlords also lose out from the absence of a tenancy deposit scheme, because they lose money when tenants withhold their last month's payment. A good scheme would help both tenants and landlords.

Desmond Turner (Labour, Brighton, Kemptown)

The hon. Gentleman is right. As far as the Government are concerned, I am knocking on an open door. However, it is only partly open, the hinges are a bit rusty, it needs oiling and it takes a bit of a push to open. That is what my amendment seeks to do. In principle, the Government are minded to move towards a national tenancy deposit scheme. They have carried out a voluntary pilot scheme and their conclusion appears in evidence given to the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister: Housing, Planning and Local Government Committee, which reads:

"It has been a very worthwhile pilot for us because it has proved that the principle of tenancy deposit protection through either of the two methods used—guarantee or the third party custodial approach—does work and it has also shown to us that a voluntary scheme is not going to work".

The principle has therefore been clearly established.

The scheme need not be expensive. Once established, the administration costs could be covered by the interest paid on the deposits held. Some relatively small costs would be incurred as the scheme was set up, but it would be cost-effective once it was set up. I do not foresee many disputes, because after a few cases that demonstrated that abuse of the system no longer worked, neither tenants nor landlords would see much point in trying. I am convinced that it would work and would not need to be as complicated as my right hon. Friend the Minister seems to think. He pointed out that a few outstanding issues remain, such as the need for written tenancy agreements, funding for a custodial deposit scheme, the nature of industry schemes, adjudication, enforcement and how to define a deposit. However, none of those issues is particularly complex or could not be readily resolved during the further progress of the Bill.

I know that my right hon. Friend the Minister has referred the matter to the Law Commission, but I ask him not to wait for the outcome of its considerations. The Law Commission is also considering tenure, and we could have to wait a long time for its conclusions. The Bill is a suitable vehicle through which to establish a tenancy deposit scheme. In the days before congestion charging, one never knew when a London bus would come along. Well, here we have an opportunity and I appeal to my right hon. Friend to get on the bus and do the business. I shall not press the issue to a vote because I know that the Government are well disposed towards it. I prefer instead to stroke the Government into submission, and I ask them to accept the new clause.

Robert Syms (Conservative, Poole)

This suggestion is often brought up by citizens advice bureaux and in surgeries, but the official Opposition are not yet persuaded that it is the right direction to take. Many voluntary schemes work well and the first option should be to consider those. A great deal of money is involved, as it is estimated that there is £790 million in tenancy deposits. The Government should certainly consider the issue to see whether practice in the area can be improved, but we would not be happy to see a regulatory scheme introduced. The argument for doing so is not overwhelming. Best practice and voluntary schemes can improve matters in many areas.

Some of the landlords who deal with the poorest tenants do not take deposits, because those tenants tend not to have deposits. Therefore, a mandatory scheme would not meet some of the objectives of those who favour one. However, in order to allow the Minister to put the Government's views on record on this important and topical subject, I shall conclude my remarks.

Matthew Green (Liberal Democrat, Ludlow)

I support a tenancy deposit scheme and I know that the Government need a little push to ensure that it gets into the Bill. However, we need to ensure that any scheme would not be universal. The Government scheme should be a fall-back position for cases in which someone has not joined an industry scheme.

Desmond Turner (Labour, Brighton, Kemptown)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the deficiency of voluntary schemes is that only the good landlords join them, and we are not worried about them?

Matthew Green (Liberal Democrat, Ludlow)

I agree that that is why it should be mandatory. If the Government scheme is a fall-back scheme and the industry schemes are retained, landlords will have a range of schemes from which to choose. I hope that the Minister will agree that that is the best way forward and will also confirm that the Government will include this provision in the Bill. It would enhance the Bill and this is the best opportunity that we will have to introduce it for several years.

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Conservative, Cotswold)

I am grateful to have caught your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I shall speak briefly as time is short.

Before the Government introduce a scheme, will they assure themselves as to the scale of the problem? Will they make certain that the costs would not be detrimental to tenants, as tenants would receive no interest on their deposit? Can the Government tell us how quickly each tenant would get back their deposit from that bureaucratic body? Can they also explain how disputes would be dealt with? It would be nonsense if every dispute, however small, had to be dealt with by an adjudicator.

Yvette Cooper (Labour, Pontefract and Castleford)

We held a constructive debate in Committee on three amendments that proposed changes to accommodate provisions on tenancy deposits, one of which is now new clause 2. In that debate, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning pointed out that we were extremely sympathetic to the sentiments that had been expressed by Members who supported embedding a tenancy deposit scheme in the measure. As he made clear, the Government support the principle of statutory provisions to safeguard tenancy deposits from wrongful misappropriation.

As the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) said that the main Opposition party is not convinced of the case for legislation on the issue, we should bear in mind the responses from the voluntary pilot scheme. There was an extremely slow take-up of the pilot and the results suggest that a voluntary approach would have considerable limitations. It would not recognise the need to ensure that irresponsible landlords and those who exploit their tenants are involved in a broader scheme to protect tenancy deposits.

We held considerable consultation on the issue and we have set out our support for the principle of statutory provisions to safeguard tenancy deposits. We need to recognise the scale of the problem. About 20 per cent. of tenants say that they have faced problems with their landlords over the return of their deposits.

The Government are considering how we should proceed. The hon. Member for Cotswold (Mr. Clifton-Brown) put a series of questions, but at this stage we are not able to say exactly how a deposit scheme might work. We are considering what might be required in drafting such legislation and in the light of those considerations what might be a suitable legislative vehicle.

The hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) asked about the scope for alternative arrangements and their promotion by trade and professional bodies. We are sympathetic to that idea.

A series of detailed issues needs to be considered, including the balance between primary and secondary legislation. We cannot simply deal with such matters through secondary legislation. In Committee, we explained why the proposals in the new clause would in many respects fall short of what is required.

On several occasions, the Government pointed out that we were keen to consider the scheme as part of the proposals for tenure reform published by the Law Commission.

Desmond Turner (Labour, Brighton, Kemptown)

The drafting of the new clause is probably open to improvement so I should be happy for the Government to draft a new clause, to their satisfaction, which they could table at the other end of the building. That would not be a problem. Can my hon. Friend explain why the Government feel that the issue needs to be conflated with the tenure question? Deposits are likely to be associated with various forms of tenure—shorthold, long and so on—so they could be considered as a freestanding issue.

Yvette Cooper (Labour, Pontefract and Castleford)

That is an important point and I shall try to address it. As I said, we made it clear previously that we were keen to consider the matter as part of the broader proposals for tenure reform that were published by the Law Commission. We have always said that we thought there was a case for addressing the issue of tenancy deposits in the context of those proposals.

We have asked the Law Commission to draft indicative clauses on tenancy deposits to accompany publication of its draft Bill in the summer. We have also said that, by that time, we would attempt to produce legislative proposals as a response to the consultation that ended last year. That work is in hand and I can assure my hon. Friend that we are considering whether such proposals could be developed separately from the Law Commission's other work on tenure. As he rightly says, a series of points have been raised by the Law Commission's work; for example, in relation to written statements of agreement—written contracts. We are keen to look into the question of written contracts, which is important, and we are considering whether it would be possible to address the tenancy deposit issue separately.

I stress that we are carrying out that work as speedily as possible, but my hon. Friend and other Members will realise that we must ensure that we develop robust proposals and that we do not end up with hasty and inappropriate legislation. We need to ensure that we resolve some of the complex issues that have been raised and find the earliest possible legislative opportunity to address them.

I can assure hon. Members that we have been looking into some of the detailed proposals made by Shelter and into some of the other complex questions, such as how to ensure the establishment of an appropriate arbitration system and how to make the difficult decisions that would be needed in that regard. We are considering whether there are alternative models and whether there should be a single custodial scheme or whether professional and trade bodies could be allowed to establish schemes. There is a possibility that we might have third-party guarantees, for example through bonding or insurance.

We have consulted on those options but we are still considering the practicalities of implementing them. There are several existing models, including the letting agents' national approved letting scheme. We are keen to find a way to support professional and trade bodies that are raising standards, rather than simply imposing a single model on everybody that might not enhance the raised standards that already exist.

The pilot scheme showed that disputes over deposits at the end of a tenancy often involved inventories or cleaning, so we should need to prescribe such things as the requirements for inventories. Some of those points might be appropriate for secondary legislation and that would enable us to make speedier progress, but we need to be confident that we are achieving the right balance between primary and secondary legislation. As was noted in Committee, we need to consider the need for independent adjudication and determination of disputes and the means or bodies through which adjudication should be provided and appealed. We need to examine how decisions could be enforced and what redress there might be for an individual tenant in the event of a favourable decision. Schemes guaranteeing that the deposit money is available might need to be established and approved as well.

As I have said, we are still interested in the timing of the Law Commission approach. We expect that the Law Commission will report to us as rapidly as possible before the summer. Of course, when we receive its proposals, we will need to consider them as well. We are also considering the issue as speedily as possible in the Department. I am unable to give the House a guarantee about the timing, but I can assure hon. Members that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Planning and I are keen to report to the House and hon. Members who have expressed an interest in the issue as rapidly as possible because we recognise that there is considerable interest, not only in the House but throughout the country, given that many people face difficulties with landlords.

Clearly, such proposals would benefit the many good and responsible landlords throughout the country and the private rented sector in general by providing more confidence for that sector. That is why we are keen to pursue the issue, but, equally, why we cannot guarantee—

It being five and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the programme motion, Mr. Deputy Speaker put the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].

Question negatived.

Mr. Deputy Speaker then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour.

New Clause 18 — Market plan for right to buy sales

Clause 157 — Extension of qualifying period for right to buy

Clause 158 — Exceptions to the right to buy: houses due to be demolished

Clause 166 — Right to buy: suspension of landlord's obligation to complete

Clause 167 — Disclosure of information as to orders etc. in respect of anti-social behaviour

Clause 179 — Implied terms relating to termination of agreements or disposal of mobile homes

Clause 181 — Succession to site agreements by same sex partners

Clause 183 — Succession to certain tenancies by same sex partners

Clause 186 — Additional power to give grants for social housing

New Clause 5 — Overcrowding

Clause 125 — Requirement as to overcrowding generally

Clause 126 — Requirement as to new residents

Clause 209 — Orders and regulations

Clause 205 — Service of documents

Clause 220 — Meaning of "person having control" and "person managing" etc.

Clause 226 — Short title commencement and extent

Schedule 10 — Residential property tribunals: procedure

Schedule 12 — Minor and consequential amendments

Michael Lord (Deputy Speaker, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)

Consideration completed.

Eric Forth (Conservative, Bromley and Chislehurst)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I know that you are bound by convention, but is it not a bit rich in the circumstances that you are forced to say that consideration of the Bill has been completed? In the last part of the guillotined timetable, eight groups of amendments and new clauses were not even debated, including 24 Government amendments and new clauses. There was no opportunity to debate or divide on those matters, and yet again the House has been compromised and insulted. Would you consider, Mr. Deputy Speaker, asking Mr. Speaker if the words that you are forced to utter could be changed, perhaps to "Consideration only partly completed? Sadly, the House of Commons has not been able to do its duty due to the Government's heavy-handedness.

Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield, Attercliffe)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. According to the conventions of the House, is it reasonable for the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) to raise the curtailment of consideration when he did not participate in that consideration at all?

Michael Lord (Deputy Speaker, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)

These are not matters on which I can rule at this point in time. They were debated by the House earlier today in the debate on the programme motion. Any time that we spend on them is simply time taken out of Third Reading.

Order for Third Reading read.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

I thank all Members of the House for their informed, constructive and—I had intended to say universally positive contributions to the debate, but perhaps I should rethink that observation, in the light of the most recent intervention.

David Kidney (Labour, Stafford)

Earlier in our proceedings my right hon. Friend generously mentioned my eager anticipation of new clause 15 dealing with empty homes. While we are all in a constructive mood, will he say whether he plans in another place to include arrangements in the Bill to deal with empty homes?

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

I am not in a position to anticipate that development, but just as I alluded to my hon. Friend's appearance earlier today on the "Today" programme, where he spoke on that subject, he will have seen my quotation in the media, in the Financial Times yesterday, in which I was reported as saying that I strongly favoured the introduction of legislation on empty homes. I would say, in the circumstances, "enough said".

Bob Spink (Conservative, Castle Point)

Will the Minister give way?

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

How can I resist the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink)?

Bob Spink (Conservative, Castle Point)

I am delighted, but the right hon. Gentleman might wish he had resisted me. He has just thanked me for my contribution, yet his programme motion prevented me from making my contribution. Does he think that is appropriate?

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

The hon. Gentleman—

Michael Lord (Deputy Speaker, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)

Order. I do not think we want to revisit the programme motion or the timing of the debate.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

I entirely agree and bow to your judgment, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I merely want to say that through correspondence and other interventions, the hon. Member for Castle Point is constantly in my thoughts. Of course, I seek to serve in every possible respect.

I was saying—

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Conservative, Cotswold)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As I understand it, on Third Reading the convention of the House is that one can speak only about what is actually in a Bill, not about what might be in a Bill. Would it therefore be in order to discuss what might have been in the Bill as a result of the amendments that we were not able to debate because of the Government's severe timetabling of the Bill?

Michael Lord (Deputy Speaker, Central Suffolk and North Ipswich)

The hon. Gentleman can safely leave such matters to the Chair.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

As I was saying, for the third time, the Government are committed to creating thriving, inclusive, sustainable communities and we have already done much to deliver that. We have made significant progress in improving housing supply in the south-east and other growth areas and in addressing renewal and regeneration in the north. Last week my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister led celebrations to mark the bringing of 1 million homes in the social sector up to a decent standard. But of course we need to do more. Communities are more than bricks and mortar. The Bill will help create a fairer, more efficient housing market and protect the most vulnerable in housing. The Bill will help—

Hilton Dawson (Labour, Lancaster and Wyre)

Speaking about what gloriously is in the Bill, has my right hon. Friend read this month's edition of Park Home and Holiday Caravan magazine yet? On page 13 is an article entitled "Bill of Rights". Nothing could express better the feelings of park home residents about the great improvements that the Government have made via the Bill to their situation. I pay particular tribute to the work of the Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper). I hope that we can go on without further ado to have excellent, constructive discussions about implied terms and further reform in the park home sector.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

My hon. Friend anticipates my allusion in due course to park homes, but as we are on the subject, I concur in his congratulations to the Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) on her work on the matter. When she introduced the park homes amendments to the Bill in Committee, I was able to follow by taking the opportunity to congratulate, and I am happy to do so again, my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Dawson) on his sterling work in leading the campaign for that very necessary reform. He may have to be satisfied with what is already in the Bill.

The Bill will help those most at risk from bad landlords and poor conditions. As my hon. Friend pointed out, it will strengthen the rights of park home owners. In that regard, there was universal rejoicing among all those who had been involved in the proceedings of the Bill. The hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) said in Committee:

"It has been a good Committee in which hon. Members on both sides contributed to improving the Bill. Although we may return to some battles at future stages, we made progress, especially earlier today when the Government accepted the case for better regulation of park homes. That was a notable achievement."—[Official Report, Standing Committee E, 24 February 2004; c. 732.]

We all rejoice at that.

The Bill will also help tackle antisocial behaviour and it will help to create decent places for people to live.

Shona McIsaac (Labour, Cleethorpes)

I echo the comments about the changes for people in park homes. I hope my right hon. Friend will assure me, on behalf of the many park home owners in Cleethorpes, especially those living in Barton Broads, who are having problems with a new landlord, that the Bill will help them. Will my right hon. Friend do everything he can to get it on to the statute book as speedily as possible?

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

I am alarmed to learn of the actions being taken against some of my hon. Friend's constituents. To help them and thousands of other park home dwellers throughout the country, I give her my firm undertaking that I will do everything to secure the relevant provision in the Bill at the earliest opportunity. I am grateful for her support in the matter.

The Bill will improve the supply of affordable housing and it will reduce delays and cut out waste when people are buying and selling homes. Other measures that the Bill will introduce deal with overcrowding. As the members of the Committee—

Andrew Love (Labour/Co-operative, Edmonton)

I congratulate the Government on introducing a new clause dealing with overcrowding. On behalf of those involved, I thank the Government for their flexibility in that regard. Will my right hon. Friend look carefully at the consultation exercise and carry it out at the earliest opportunity? Will he ensure that when the Government change the overcrowding standard, they bring it up to 21st century expectations?

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his enthusiastic press release on the subject. Through the consultation process we are all determined to bring standards up to those that are merited in the 21st century and to alleviate a great deal of suffering.

Karen Buck (Labour, Regent's Park and Kensington North)

I congratulate my right hon. Friend and colleagues on the new clause, which will take us a step towards bringing the standards governing overcrowding into the 21st century, and on commissioning the research that has given us some useful information on the health and welfare implications of overcrowded households. May I stress again that there are 1.5 million children living in overcrowded accommodation in London and under the present ludicrous 19th century standards, 20,000 families living in statutorily overcrowded houses? We need to sweep away the existing provisions, and we must move fast to implement new standards that give those families an opportunity to bring their children up in decent conditions.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. We all hope that we can move towards that desired objective through the new provisions of the Bill and the outcome of the consultation process, but we cannot get away from the fact—and I would not want to do so—that it is also an issue of resource and supply. We must work hard in that regard as well.

On overcrowding, as my hon. Friends have indicated, we have introduced amendments to allow the universal statutory overcrowding standards in part X of the Housing Act 1985 to be amended by secondary legislation. As they indicated, I intend to consult over the next few months about how those powers might be used.

On the licensing regime for houses in multiple occupation, the Government have tabled an amendment to add sex offences to the list that local authorities consider when they decide whether an applicant for a licence is a fit and proper person.

In Committee, the concern was raised that a licence condition on landlords to control the behaviour of their tenants and visitors to the property is too wide and unclear, and that landlords could use it to harass tenants. As a consequence, we have tabled an amendment that clarifies that a licence holder's obligation, if one is imposed in a licence, relates only to antisocial behaviour by a tenant or a visitor, and only to the extent that the landlord is reasonably able to fulfil it.

Concern was also expressed in Committee about the lack of clarity and detail in the Bill on how the proposed grants for non-registered social landlord provision will work in practice, and, in particular, about safeguards and accountability in the absence of a regulatory system similar to that that the relevant authorities exercise over RSLs. We tabled an amendment to provide for a regulation-making power, which allows the Secretary of State to set out conditions that the Housing Corporation must impose, matters that it must address and the effect it must achieve when a grant is given under new section 27A. In Committee, the perfectly understandable concern that a level playing field must exist between RSLs, non-RSLs and, above all, tenants was expressed, and we are determined to achieve such a situation.

John Battle (Labour, Leeds West)

I welcome the Government's movement, particularly on HMOs—they listened, which is welcome. In opening the Third Reading debate, however, the Minister mentioned that the Bill's general aim is thriving, sustainable and inclusive communities, but that is unachievable if conflicts between residents, Travellers and Gypsies persist in our society, neighbourhoods and constituencies. The ODPM promised to review the matter during the course of the Housing Bill, and I urge the Minister promptly to bring forward the review and not to lose sight of the opportunity to address the matter as a housing and accommodation issue before the Bill completes its parliamentary stages.

Keith Hill (Labour, Streatham)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising his concern about provision for Gypsies and Travellers, which is shared by other Labour Members. His point offers a salutary reminder that that issue is not, as is often perceived, restricted to rural areas, but is an issue in urban areas too. I reassure him that the ODPM is undertaking much work on the issue, and we hope to introduce a series of announcements and proposals, some of which may be incorporated in the Bill.

In short and in total, the Housing Bill will directly contribute to the delivery of sustainable communities. On Second Reading, the Chairman of the ODPM Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Bennett), observed that this is a good Housing Bill, but that it had the potential to be a great Housing Bill. I hope that it is on its way to becoming a great Housing Bill, and I commend it to the House.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

The right hon. Gentleman is a fair Minister, and he has the potential to become a very good Opposition spokesman, a position in which we hope that he will find himself sooner rather than later.

The consideration of the Bill in Committee and on Second Reading was good, and today's debate was largely positive and constructive. However, we cannot let this opportunity pass without saying that it is unacceptable not to consider 20 Government new clauses and amendments and a dozen other new clauses on Report.

Extremely cynically, the Government talked long on tenancy deposits so that we could not have a debate on warm homes, which would have been welcome on both sides of the Chamber. It is important that people outside this place know precisely what happened today. The new clause on warm homes was modest. It discussed what can reasonably and practically be done, and extending to 2016 the timetable to meet the Government's targets. Both Government and Opposition Members signed it, but it was not debated at the will of the Government, who cut short the Report stage.

As I said, proceedings in Committee were conducted in good spirit, and as I also said, the Minister listened to the arguments advanced from both sides of the Committee. Many people outside this place—industry representatives and people who are concerned about housing—asked me for how long I expected us to debate the matter on the Floor of the House. Believing that the Minister would continue to show the good faith that he showed in Committee, I expected that we might get two days, in which time we could have covered all the aspects of the Bill that have gone unconsidered today.

It is unacceptable that social housing grants to private developers to build social houses—a terribly important issue for the people who will rent those houses and RSLs—has not been debated. It is not appropriate that accessible housing registers for disabled people, empty houses, mobile homes for Gypsies and Travellers and a range of other issues have not been debated. That is an indictment of the Government, and it is a matter that the Lords will consider with grave concern. I expect those issues to be fully explored there, because they have not been fully explored here.

I say that more in sorrow than in anger—my concern is shared by hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber. The Minister and the Whip for this business, the hon. Member for Gillingham (Paul Clark), who is a delicate, sensitive and kindly soul, have not lived up to their reputations.

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Conservative, Cotswold)

This is probably the largest Housing Bill ever—it contains 226 clauses and 13 schedules of highly complex legislation. This democratic Parliament owes the people whom the Housing Bill will affect more than one day's consideration. The Bill should have been considered for two days.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

My hon. Friend adds his passion, which is on behalf of all the people who will be affected by the Bill, to my sorrow. He is right to amplify my point, which other hon. Members including the shadow Leader of the House and my right hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Mr. Forth) also made, about appropriate consideration of such weighty legislation.

The Bill deals with many important things. It introduces a new housing health and safety rating system, which, although it will be beneficial in many ways, will be expensive to implement. Questions remain about local authorities' ability to introduce the new system in a timely fashion. Do they have the proper resources and the necessary training and reskilling to make the new housing fitness system a practical reality?

The Bill proposes a licensing system, and we should protect the interests of our most vulnerable citizens, who are obliged to rent houses and live in HMOs. Exploitation is possible in that sector, and it is appropriate that the Government have examined it and brought forward proposals. However, doubts remain whether the licensing system will encompass those in the greatest need and whether the regulatory burden will be so great that it will drive potential landlords out of the business of making homes available to people who need them.

The Bill includes changes to the right to buy. The Government acknowledge, and the Opposition agree, that the abuse of the right to buy should be curbed, but there are doubts whether measures to curb such abuse will act as a disincentive to people who want to exercise their right to buy, and I am disappointed that the Government have not taken our proposals on board, which would have been a shot in the arm for the right to buy while also curbing abuse.

The Government have added provisions on park homes, but only on the prompting of Members on both sides of the House, who noticed their omission at an early stage and asked for that to be rectified. Ministers have taken a lot of credit for making that concession, but they should not crow too much without adding the important caveat that on Second Reading those proposals came not from Government Front Benchers but from Conservative, Liberal Democrat and Labour Back Benchers.

Then we come to home information packs. What use are they really going to be and what value will they add? We know about the uncertainties, the likely costs and the potential effects on the market, but we have heard no convincing arguments—today, in Committee or previously—for the introduction of these packs. There is grave doubt about their likely efficacy and effectiveness and about whether they can realistically be implemented in the time scale that the Government envisage. I am absolutely sure that Members in the other place will want to consider those matters in great detail and to ask the testing questions of Ministers that we have asked here. I have to say that Liberal Democrat Members have put similar questions, but have also failed to get appropriate answers.

David Kidney (Labour, Stafford)

rose—

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

I give way to the hon. Gentleman, who made a pithy intervention that was somewhat critical of the Minister a few moments ago.

David Kidney (Labour, Stafford)

This question is for the hon. Gentleman. The will of this House on home information packs is clear. Is he saying that his Conservative friends in the other place would try to sink the Government's plan?

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

Our Houses of Parliament always strike a proper balance between the considerations of this place and those of the other place. Of course there is a happy and productive tension between the two Houses because, as the hon. Gentleman knows, that is how legislation is properly scrutinised. Were it not for the good offices of Conservative and Liberal Democrat peers—that is the second tribute that I have paid to the Liberal Democrats in the course of one speech, which is beginning to test me to my very limits—on the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Bill, it would have been an altogether more imperfect piece of legislation, as we shall no doubt hear tomorrow. I shall not test your patience, Madam Deputy Speaker, by anticipating that debate.

The truth of the matter is that there are still significant holes in the Bill. It is all very well for the Minister to say on the radio, instead of here, that he is interested in empty homes. We have been telling him for months that he should be interested in empty homes. [Interruption.]

Throughout the passage of the Bill—on Second Reading, in Committee, and again today—Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members and some Labour Back Benchers have emphasised the fact that it was a golden opportunity to introduce legislation on empty homes, but the Government resisted that. We now hear rumours and suggestions that they might relent, but thus far they have not done so. It is not unreasonable to make that point again in this short Third Reading debate.

Other hon. Members want to speak, so I shall draw my remarks to a conclusion. This Bill does some good things and this Minister does some good things too—what Bill and what Minister do not?—but I have yet to be convinced that we can reasonably support it, not least because of the inclusion of sellers packs, which remain the most significant part of the Bill in the sense that they will affect everyone who sells or buys a house. Many parts of the Bill are significant in other ways, but not in terms of their potential impact on people's lives, on the costs of buying and selling a home, and on the nature of the market and the professions that are part of it.

The Government have failed to make a compelling case on that, as they have on a range of other issues that I have highlighted. For that reason, I will vote against the Bill, and I hope that my hon. Friends will join me. I urge the Liberal Democrats to vote with us because, although I do not want to put them off at this eleventh hour, I can see a meeting of minds between us on some of the matters that I have mentioned. Finally, I know that many Labour Members who are dissatisfied with the way in which the Bill deals with warm homes, empty homes and a range of other matters will be pleased that we have opposed it, because that provides the opportunity for those elsewhere to try to knock it into shape and to make something decent out of an unsatisfactory set of proposals.

Sylvia Heal (Deputy Speaker, Halesowen and Rowley Regis)

Order. There is little time left before the conclusion of the debate, so I hope that Members will take note of that and be concise in their contributions.

Clive Betts (Labour, Sheffield, Attercliffe)

In general terms, this is a good Bill that attempts to deal with some of the worst housing conditions experienced by some of the poorest members of our community. I thank Ministers for their willingness to involve so many Back Benchers by engaging with us in debate about some of the most important issues.

My main concern about the Bill is that in some respects it does not go as far as I would like. The hazard rating system is potentially very good, although it is complicated and its implementation will need careful handling. I welcome the fact that we are to have a national licensing system for houses in multiple occupation. Some hon. Members have fought for that for many years, because it will address some of the worst housing conditions for some of the poorest people in our communities. I am concerned, however, that the Minister still does not recognise the degree to which HMOs are not just a risk, but a problem of management in terms of the disruption and nuisance that they can cause to surrounding communities. If that is to be addressed through the additional licensing route, I hope that the Minister will consider the cost to local authorities engaged in the process and do something to assist them.

The licensing of private landlords in selective areas is good step forward that might be extended in future. Again, it will deal with some of the worst housing problems in some of the poorest communities.

The home information pack is another good step forward. The more I have heard the arguments, the more I have been persuaded of that. The packs will bring some order to a very disorderly process. The "offers around" system that operates in Sheffield, but hardly anywhere else in the country, is chaotic, and the new scheme will start to deal with that. It will of course be necessary to get right the training of inspectors and the insurance arrangements. I am sure that the Minister will return to the licensing of estate agents, because he believes that it sits happily with the proposals to regulate the whole approach to home buying and selling.

The Minister gave reassurances in Committee on the tenancy deposit scheme. The Government are now committed to that scheme in principle, and we look forward to its introduction in the near future, because it will help to protect people who are ripped off by their landlords by having deposits taken from them for no good reason.

For those reasons and many others, I support the Bill and congratulate my right hon. Friend on the way in which he handled it in Committee and today.

Edward Davey (Liberal Democrat, Kingston and Surbiton)

It is important that Members in the other place and people outside Parliament realise that Members of the elected Chamber—not only Opposition but Labour Members—have been angered by the Government's frustration of genuine democratic debate on key housing issues. That is an absolute disgrace. We look to the other place to help to put that right.

I regret having to say this, but we and our colleagues on the Labour Benches who have worked with us throughout the proceedings of the Bill on issues such as warm homes, tenancy deposit schemes and empty homes—issues that are crucial to our constituents and that we hear about in our surgeries week in and week out—have been prevented from debating them in the proper way in which they should be debated during the Report stage of a big housing Bill. That is an absolute disgrace, and it is one of the reasons why I hope that some Labour Members will have the courage to register in the Lobby their frustration at the Government's handling of the Bill.

It is a shame that I have to say that, because parts of the Bill are welcome. The selective licensing regime in part 3 is particularly welcome, for example, in regard to tackling antisocial behaviour. As the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts) said, part 1 represents a step forward in dealing with poor housing conditions, although there are real concerns about whether it can be implemented and whether the system that has been devised is too complex. Those concerns came out in the debate today, showing that there are worries even about the good parts of the Bill. Some of us have been campaigning for a long time for the measures in part 2 on houses in multiple occupation, but they do not go far enough, as the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe had the courage to say.

It is disappointing that, despite this opportunity to achieve some real goals and take some real steps forward, the Government have taken only two very nervous steps forward without advancing their cause more courageously or ambitiously. I would have liked the Bill to contain measures on giving landlords a more positive role. Landlords could play a key part in improving the private rented sector, and the Government need to find ways of engaging with them, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green) mentioned in the curtailed debate on HMOs, and ways of working with organisations such as the National Landlords Association, to see whether training and accreditation schemes could be used to raise the quality of landlords so that they could deliver on some of these measures.

The Liberal Democrats have particular concerns about part 5 of the Bill. We believe that the home information packs represent a totally unnecessary regulation. The owner-occupier market manages to carry out more than 1.2 million transactions a year. There seems to be a prima facie case, therefore, for saying that that market is not failing, but succeeding. People manage to move home very effectively, and when a purchase falls through, it tends to be because someone's financial position has changed or because they have to move somewhere else because of their job. Home information packs will not solve those problems, and the solution that the Government have come up with does not address the problems. Indeed, they are unsolvable because they are the problems of normal life.

This is a market that the Government should leave well alone. The danger is that their so-called solution will make the housing problem even worse, particularly in the owner-occupied sector, where house prices are rocketing and there are not enough affordable homes. The Minister did not reply to my question about whether this proposal had been put to Professor Kate Barker when she was producing her review on the supply of housing. In fact, because of the way that this debate has gone, he has answered hardly any of the questions that hon. Members have asked. That, too, brings the House into disrepute.

The Liberal Democrats sincerely believe that the introduction of home information packs will work against the Government. I say to the Minister in a genuinely constructive manner that this measure will come back to haunt the Labour Government. In a few years' time, people will be asking who is responsible for all the regulations, extra costs and delays, and we will be able to say, "We told you so," and tell them that it was the Minister for Housing and Planning, the right hon. Member for Streatham (Keith Hill). Voters will be seriously fed up when they have to live with these ridiculous regulations.

To give at least one more hon. Member the chance to speak, I shall bring my remarks to a conclusion. I hope that I have made it clear that, regrettably, the Liberal Democrats will have to vote against the Bill. It contains some good measures, but there are far too many omissions, and far too many chances to improve housing conditions have been missed. Moreover, some of the proposals in the Bill will do huge damage to the housing market and to the interests of many of our constituents.

David Kidney (Labour, Stafford)

In truth, this started out being a good Bill and it has got better. As we are now sending it to the other place, there is still the capacity for further improvement. I would like to give the ministerial team unconditional credit for listening to the Second Reading debate and to the pressure from hon. Members over park homes, and for making wholesale amendments at the right time in Committee. Those amendments will be very welcome to the residents of park homes around the country.

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Conservative, Cotswold)

I heard the hon. Gentleman's cogent performance on compulsory leasing on the "Today" programme. How can he give unconditional credit to the Minister when his proposals have not even been debated this evening because of the timetable?

David Kidney (Labour, Stafford)

The hon. Gentleman obviously did not hear me saying that I was talking about park homes. I would like to say to all those residents of park homes who will welcome what happened in Committee that, here tonight, things also got better when we accepted amendment No. 75.

The Government have improved the Bill further. My right hon. Friend the Minister mentioned the concession that they have made, again after listening to the debate in Committee, on including sexual offences as a relevant matter when licensing the owners of houses in multiple occupation. The Minister also acknowledged the pressure that was brought to bear on the Government on overcrowding, which has led to measures being included in the legislation today. All those things are to the Government's credit.

Some provisions are still missing from the Bill as it goes to the House of Lords. A good tenant deposit scheme and a provision on warm homes would be welcome. However, as time is short, I shall pick out as the most innovative measure in the Bill the new local authority power to make management orders in certain circumstances. Will my right hon. Friend the Minister tell us—I realise that I shall not get an answer now—whether it is anticipated that those orders will be the solution to the problem of bringing empty homes back into use? Let us remember that last year, 719,000 homes were standing empty in England alone, 80 per cent. of which were in private ownership and 300,000 of which were empty for more than six months.

John Hayes (Conservative, South Holland and The Deepings)

The hon. Gentleman has made many good points, and he is right to say that the Minister listened to the debates on Second Reading and in Committee. Does he share the regret of the Conservative Opposition and the Liberal Democrats that there has not been more time to explore the issues today?

David Kidney (Labour, Stafford)

Perhaps I should give notice that I shall take no more interventions like that, because time is so short.

I regard the new power for local authorities to make management orders as a power of last resort, so in the case of empty homes, I would expect the authorities to advise or cajole, and to give help to owners. Some councils already give the owners of empty homes grants to get the properties back into use. However, I would imagine that, under a management order, a local authority would take possession of an empty property, repair it and let it at an affordable rent. That would help to meet the still dreadful housing needs that exist in this country, and to halt the degradation of the surrounding area, in terms of both the environment and crime. Owners would benefit from such a scheme, because they would get the rent from the property and retain ownership of it.

Lynne Jones (Labour, Birmingham, Selly Oak)

Will my hon. Friend give way?

David Kidney (Labour, Stafford)

No, I want to finish now, if I may.

Such a measure would help people with housing needs, and neighbours in areas with empty houses would be delighted to see those properties brought back into productive use. Society would therefore be very satisfied if we could make that response to the problem. I hope that the Government will be delighted that everyone supports that idea and wants to do something about it before the Bill reaches the statute book.

Bob Spink (Conservative, Castle Point)

The right hon. Member for Streatham (Keith Hill) is an excellent Minister, and it is therefore all the more surprising that he is driving the measure through. The Bill is poorly conceived and considered. It has received especially scant consideration today. The main problem is the element of compulsion, which spoils some potentially decent provisions. The worst clause is the provision on home information packs. The Bill offers no reliable improvements to the dysfunctional house buying and selling process.

More than 1 million residential property transactions take place each year and it is important not to interfere with or disrupt the operation of the housing market. The Bill will do that and it is especially significant at this time, when supply in so many areas is insufficient to meet demand. That drives up property prices, with all the attendant problems that we know so well.

Philosophically, the country wants less interference from the Government: less bureaucracy, less regulation and fewer inspectorates. In short, people want less regulation and Government interference. However, the Bill and the statutory imposition of the home information packs mean more, not less, Government interference; more Big Brother centralised government; more costs for the seller and therefore the buyer; more cost to the public purse to pay for the new regulations and the new inspectorate, and therefore more house price inflation.

Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Conservative, Cotswold)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, because I shall not have time to make a contribution. Every year, 1.8 million houses are sold. Does my hon. Friend realise that the Government's estimate of £600 per information pack will add more than £1 billion to the cost of buying and selling houses? If the realistic cost of £1,000 is taken into account, it will mean an extra £1.8 billion. Does my hon. Friend believe that we will achieve anything worth while for that money?

Bob Spink (Conservative, Castle Point)

My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the specific figures. The process will cost more, but we shall achieve less. The Bill is a typical socialist measure—[Laughter.] The compulsion to produce the home conditions report will increase the cost of selling houses. Hon. Members laugh now, but they may not do so in two or three years, when their constituents knock on their surgery doors. It will deter some sellers from entering the property market. The statutory requirement means that home information packs must be in place before any marketing can occur. That will unduly reduce the number of houses—

It being six and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the programme motion, Madam Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].