Licensing Bill [Lords]

Public Bill Committee, 8 May 2003.

Standing Committee D

Clause 96

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

I beg to move amendment No. 339, in

clause 96, page 55, line 6, at end insert—

'(5) The fourth condition is that the premises are not covered by an existing premises licence or club premises certificate.'.

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Benton. I shall first set out why I have tabled amendment No. 339. Some time ago, I met a solicitor from a local firm who was in charge of its licensing practice. That was around the time of the World cup. He was the first solicitor to secure a licence for early opening for England matches so that people could watch those matches in the comfort of their local pub. He recently wrote to me to ask how he could achieve a similar licence for a similar event under the Licensing Bill.

That solicitor had looked at clause 171, which deals with the relaxation of opening hours for special occasions. Such a measure was used recently by the Secretary of State to relax opening hours at new year and, I think, during the golden jubilee. However, that was used for special events of national significance and perhaps might not cover the need to open a pub for longer. When I was discussing the matter, I wondered whether the answer was in the operating statement and whether publicans could set out there those occasions on which they might wish to open for longer than their usual hours, or the number of times a year that they might choose to do so.

With that in mind, I examined part 5 of the Bill, which deals with temporary event notices. That is a lighter-touch regime—it is the Government's stated aim to have better and lighter regulation. Temporary event notices will require no time-consuming public consultation. All that will be needed is to issue the notice to the local licensing authority and to the police. If they object, they can give a counter notice. That will offer an ideal opportunity for a publican to circumvent the need for public scrutiny of longer opening hours. What concerns me is that if a pub landlord decides to open his pub late on five occasions a year—later amendments have been tabled to aim to increase the number of temporary event notices that a premises could have to much more than five—he could cause extreme nuisance to his neighbours and dislocation to local residents by using temporary event notices, which escape public consultation and scrutiny, to achieve his end.

That is why I have tabled amendment No. 339, which says that a licensed premises cannot apply for a temporary event notice. I would like publicans to use the operating statement as a means of ensuring that

when they wish to open for longer on an irregular basis that is considered when the premises licence is applied for. It can then be subject to scrutiny by local residents to ensure that people in the vicinity, who have the right to comment and make representations on the premises licence, can comment on those hours before they are introduced. Pubs could not then circumvent the consultation process by using a temporary event notice.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I, too, welcome you back to the Chair, Mr. Benton. I am glad that the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) has raised this matter, because it is important and helps to explain why we have been so careful over such things as the number of temporary event notices and locations.

I hope that I can answer the debate on amendment No. 339 by clarifying how the Bill operates with respect to premises licences, club premises certificates, temporary event notices and the relationship between them.

Clause 96 sets out the meaning of ''permitted temporary activity'' for the purposes of the Bill. It sets out three conditions that must be satisfied if a licensable activity is to be considered a ''permitted temporary activity.'' Those conditions are: that the requirements of clauses 100 and 102(1) are met; that the notice has not been withdrawn by the giver; and, that no counter notice has been issued under part 5 in respect of the notice, for example, if the police have raised objections on the grounds of crime and disorder. The amendment would add a fourth condition: that the premises in respect of which the notice has been given are not already covered by a premises licence or a club premises certificate.

Having listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman, I remain convinced that the amendment is born of a simple misunderstanding of the way in which the Bill operates and that it is unnecessary. I hope that I can help the hon. Gentleman by explaining why.

If premises are covered by a premises licence or a club premises certificate, that does not mean that all licensable activities are permitted by that licence or certificate, much less that the almost infinite variations of licensable activities are permitted. For example, a village hall may have a premises licence permitting the provision of regulated entertainment such as the performance of live music. Under the amendment, it would be impossible for someone to organise an event at that hall under the authority of a temporary event notice if it involved, for example, the sale of alcohol. It would even prohibit the authorisation of the performance of a play at that hall under a temporary event notice. To give another example, a pub, which would have a premises licence authorising the sale of alcohol, could not have a live band from time to time under the authority of a temporary event notice.

I am sure that that is not what the hon. Gentleman intends because he argued the case for live music earlier. I understand his misgivings about the possibility that the temporary event notice might create a problem for neighbours and we shall discuss that issue under subsequent clauses. In the meantime, I

am sure that he does not want to restrict drastically the opportunity for communities to benefit from the light touch—he described that very well—offered by the temporary event notice system. I urge him not to press the amendment.

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

The Minister sets out his argument clearly, but my concern is that people operating premises may use the provision to avoid public scrutiny of activities that they want to undertake and, particularly if we are successful in making later amendments, that will increase the number of temporary event notices that premises may have during a year. People who apply for a temporary event notice should be encouraged to think through the sort of events they might want to put on in those licensed premises, even if it is a village hall wanting to put on a play. They should be thinking about the issues when they apply for the premises licence. They will know what sort of events they usually host and they should be able to cast the terms of the premises licence sufficiently widely to cover the sort of events they want to hold.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree with what the Minister said earlier about village halls? The village hall network has contacted me regularly about the Bill. They would often not want alcohol to be part of their premises licence because they would not want to have to have a supervisor with a personal licence, but they may want to be able to put on a few events with alcohol under a temporary event notice.

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

The hon. Gentleman has a valid point and I understand the angle that he is coming from. However, if we examine the relatively small number of temporary event notices that a premises is allowed, it will not take long for a village hall to exhaust its five notices if it wants to put on a range of activities. I would much rather that the operating statement were drafted more widely to allow village halls to say, ''From time to time, we will sell alcohol for particular events and we may put on plays and musical performances to reflect the needs of the local community.'' I would rather that we went down that route than enable some operators to use a system of temporary event notices to circumvent public scrutiny of their activities.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

Can my hon. Friend tell me whether the terms of the operating schedule, which are set out in clause 18, would permit his proposal? The operating schedule seems to require clear indications of the times at which proposed licensable activity will take place and the times at which the premises is likely to be open to the public well before the licence is applied for. How can a village hall possibly know in advance of the application for a premises licence all the prospective times in a number of years when it will be open to the public or when a licence may be needed because somebody has decided to have a wedding with a cash bar?

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

In that situation, my hon. Friend should encourage people to draft in fairly wide terms when a premises may be open for licensable activities.

If a village hall in a small village in the Isle of Wight decides to put on a wedding for up to 500 people, which it can do under the terms of an event notice, surely local residents would have an interest in how that function was handled. If we widen the operating statement rather than using temporary event notices, local people will be able to have a say in how the village hall is operated. They will be able to object if they feel that 500 people in a village hall is too many.

There is a danger that the operating statement will be too restrictive and we should therefore encourage more venues to examine it and to use it more flexibly rather than using temporary event notices as a cover for events to which local people would object if they had the opportunity to raise their concerns as part of the operating statement and the premises licensing process.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

We will be debating many of those issues shortly. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that we have given strong additional safeguards? He is sailing a bit close to the rocks given the additional burden that he would impose on the sorts of organisations that my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Jim Knight) mentioned a few moments ago. One of the chief safeguards is giving the police powers to close temporary events on the spot if they become a nuisance to local residents. The hon. Gentleman must be careful about going over the edge by making the type of events that my hon. Friend mentioned almost impossible to organise because of the big bureaucratic burden, which would remove the advantages of light-touch regulation.

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

I am trying to balance temporary event notices with operating statements. My concern is that the restrictions on temporary event notices are already tight. If anything, the rules are too tight and should be relaxed in some respects—we will come to the specifics later. The quid pro quo to relaxing those rules is that existing locations with premises licences will take advantage of the relaxations. The balance between temporary event notices and operating statements is overly restrictive in the case of temporary event notices.

I want to make sure that existing licensed premises could not take advantage of any relaxation in temporary event notices, which is why I should like to carve them out from any relaxation. I am conscious that there will be other opportunities this morning to discuss a relaxation on temporary event notices, and perhaps we will have more success in persuading the Minister to change his mind. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 96 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 97 - The relevant licensing authority

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I beg to move amendment No. 236, in

clause 97, page 55, line 11, leave out 'each of those authorities' and insert

'whichever of the authorities is agreed by those authorities unanimously to be the relevant authority, or if no such agreement is reached—

(i) the licensing authority in whose area the greater or greatest part of the premises is situated, or

(ii) if there is no authority to which paragraph (i) applies, such one of those authorities as is nominated in accordance with subsection (2)'.

Joe Benton (Labour, Bootle)

With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 301, in

clause 97, page 55, line 11, at end insert—

'(2) In a case within subsection (1)(b)(ii) the individual giving the temporary event notice under section 98 must nominate one of the licensing authorities as the relevant licensing authority in relation to the notice.'.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

Good morning, Mr. Benton, and welcome back to the Chair. Amendments Nos. 236 and 301 have been tabled in my name and those of my hon. Friends. Clause 97 is, of course, similar to an earlier clause relating to licensed premises. It states that

''where the premises are situated in the areas of two or more licensing authorities, each of those two authorities''

must get involved, which is over-bureaucratic. There could be duplication because two sets of officers will examine such matters. If a sensible arrangement and agreement could be reached, those duties would pertain only to one of the authorities.

Amendment No. 236 would allow whichever authority has been unanimously agreed to be the relevant authority to take responsibility—in other words, the two authorities should discuss which of them should take on the role. If agreement cannot be reached, the licensing authority in which the greatest part of the premises is situated should be responsible. If that does not work, amendment No. 301 would kick in. It states that

''the individual giving the temporary event notice under section 98 must nominate one of the licensing authorities as the relevant licensing authority in relation to the notice.''

The amendments are designed to avoid duplication and two bureaucracies becoming involved. If two bureaucracies are involved, things can go badly wrong if communications between them are not ideal. The amendments are positive and will clarify the situation to allow everybody, including the person giving the notice and the relevant licensing authority, to know who is dealing with whom, which should ensure that serious problems are avoided.

Mark Field (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)

It is essential that the situation in relation to clause 97 be clarified. Without wanting to repeat the debate in the House of Lords, there are a number of instances within London authorities, which are obviously local authorities and therefore licensing authorities, where large entertainment areas straddle boundaries. The majority of Earls Court, for example, is within the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea with a small area across the border—the railway line—in Hammersmith and Fulham. None the less, clause 97 is overly bureaucratic because it would ensure that both parties have a say. As it happens, there is an amicable long-term agreement between the two local authorities, which ensures that the Royal

Borough of Kensington and Chelsea deals with Earls Court. That is partly because the overwhelming majority of the site is in the royal borough and partly for practical purposes relating to the railway and road routes.

It would clearly be over-bureaucratic if similar examples across London were not determined amicably between local authorities. Although I understand that the Minister is trying to implement a belt-and-braces approach, which he explained in relation to the previous clause on licensing matters to which my hon. Friend referred, it would be sensible for a single authority to be involved, rather than the obvious duplication, potential delay, bureaucracy and cost that would entail if we went down the route of clause 97. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend's amendments.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I am interested in the amendments that my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) introduced. My approach to the amendments will depend on the definition of the word ''premises''. I am aware that the Minister told me during the last sitting that ''premises'' means the premises that are the subject of the application and only that part of the premises that is the subject of an application, if I can now use a broader definition of the word. Clause 190 defines ''premises'' not as that part that is subject to the application but as ''any place'' and goes on to say that it includes

''a vehicle, vessel or moveable structure''.

I am not going to trespass on the part of the definition that includes a vehicle, vessel or moveable structure at the moment, but it is clear from that definition that premises include not only an area that is a building or even a field, but could include an area that has no visible definition on the ground. It could include a part of an airfield, for example and in those circumstances I think that it is likely that premises could stretch over a boundary.

I am asking the Minister to consider whether the definition he gave me of premises last time is the right one. I do not want someone to come along and say, ''I am Mr. Wetherspoon. I own a pub in Westminster and another in the Isle of Wight, and I am going to make one application because they are one set of premises.'' [Interruption.] There may well be a lot of water between them.

Let us consider another eventuality. The Red Funnel company is a ferry company—it is actually the Southampton, Isle of Wight and South of England Royal Mail Steam Packet Company—that owns premises at both ends of its operation. Could someone say that those premises are one set of premises because they are connected by a ferry? In such a case, part would be subject to the authority of Southampton city council and part subject to that of the Isle of Wight council. Is it so clear to be not worth discussing that such premises would be two sets of premises for the purposes of the legislation?

I do not want the cities of Westminster or Southampton to be determining applications for

premises that lie in my constituency and I am sure that the Isle of Wight council would not want that to happen either. It is less likely to happen in my constituency because we do not have contiguous authorities as other constituencies do. However, others may enter into an argument about the desirability or otherwise of having decisions about their authority made by a different licensing authority.

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Is it not also true that in the case of the Isle of Wight there would be a stretch of water between the two authorities? Unless the hon. Gentleman's constituents have come up with the novel idea of walking on water, would that not also be a reason not to class them as one premises?

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

It may interest the hon. Gentleman to know that he is right. He is observant: there is indeed a stretch of water between the Isle of Wight and Southampton. At certain times of the year it is possible to play cricket in the middle of that stretch of water. Bramble bank is exposed at low tide two or three times a year and a cricket match regularly takes place there.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

Only the English would do that.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

The Minister makes an appalling observation. It is because people of my race and origin were prepared to play cricket in the middle of the sea that we built an empire.

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

You will be relieved to know, Mr. Benton, that I will not continue the cricketing theme.

It is not feasible to require a temporary event notice for a wedding on the Red Funnel ferry. One can imagine a situation in which a reception would begin at the company's offices in Southampton. The couple would board the boat and get married on it and then the boat would dock at Cowes for the end of the reception. Such an event would straddle Southampton, the water and the Isle of Wight and would involve two licensing authorities.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

Indeed, I can imagine exactly such a situation, with the possible exception of being married on the Red Funnel ferry. I believe that a separate licence is required for that. You will be pleased to know, Mr. Benton, that it is not one that is covered by the Bill.

On firework night during Cowes week, Red Funnel ferries operate an excursion from Southampton that comes to the island, where people have an opportunity to watch the fireworks, and then returns to Southampton. Therefore, the question is whether premises can be so stretched that they might be held by more reasonable people than the applicant to represent more than one place.

My point about Bramble bank is that it is covered by water most of the year. It is not in the city of Southampton or in any of the adjoining councils of New Forest, Eastleigh or Fareham. Neither is it in the area that is covered by Isle of Wight council. Can the Minister tell me which licensing authority would be responsible for Bramble bank or for any similar part

of the country that is exposed only at low tide two or three times a year?

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I certainly apologise to the hon. Gentleman's constituents, who may or may not play cricket on Bramble bank. I was simply pointing out that I never cease to be amazed by the inventiveness and quirkiness of the English race.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

That is not an improvement.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

It is a blanket condemnation.

Let me first deal with some of the questions of the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire. He asked a good question about the difference between a premises licence and a temporary event notice. It certainly makes sense to have a lead authority for premises licences because of the detailed work such as inspections and so on that frequently has to be done for premises. We hear more and more about Earls Court, which is probably the most notable of licensed premises that straddle boundaries.

By the way, there will not be many such cases. We have previously had debates on the matter and are aware of pubs on islands in rivers. Boundaries are often placed midstream along rivers and they frequently go right through the middle of pubs. Those are usually problematic cases, but they occur rarely. The Committee may remember that we also discussed the way in which city and town boundaries follow the centre of roads—not always, but usually.

For temporary event notices, notification is all that is necessary. The whole point of such notices is that they do not involve onerous duties. The person giving the notice simply has to say what will happen. We shall discuss a little later the upper limits on the number of people, as the hon. Member for Fareham reminded us. He has tabled amendment No. 340, which would remove the upper limit of 499 on the number of people who will be allowed to take part in an event. However, we have been very careful about hedging temporary event notices with the type of restriction that will ensure that events will not be burdensome to the people who live in an area or the businesses that operate there.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I have followed the Minister's argument thus far. The process starts with the giving of the notice but if, say, the police in either of the areas—they have to be informed by the two local licensing authorities—want to raise objections, there will be two processes relating to the temporary event notice running in parallel. I am not clear at what point one licensing and police authority take control of the matter, instead of two sets of authorities dealing with the situation.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

That is a good point; I shall try to explain again. The temporary event notice is a simple document and the notice giver would simply send the original to the licensing authority and a copy to the police. That would avoid the sort of procedures that exist at the moment, which can become pretty protracted. If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I will get away from Bramble bank for a moment; I do not know how far it is from the nearest houses.

Let us say that a temporary event notice was used—that would happen rarely, as I have said—in premises on a boundary between two licensing authorities. Some scurrilous individual—God knows, there cannot be many of them—might decide to approach the local authorities from which they would be least likely to meet any resistance. It may well be that the local authority across the boundary has thousands of houses nearby.

The provision is not a great burden; we simply require that, in such an instance, the notice goes to both local authorities and think that if the police in either of the authorities decide that there might be a problem, they ought to be able to come back to it. That is not a huge step. We are considerably reducing the bureaucracy involved in the present system. We simply ask that notices go out on both occasions, because there are no other controls. Remember, the only other people who can object are the police on the grounds of controlling any criminal activity that may take place.

The notices will be given very rarely. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset said, we must be careful that we do not hit all sorts of innocent and very healthy activities simply because we are being overly careful about the exceptions to the rule. However, there will be exceptions to the rule and under such circumstances, given that there are no checks and balances bar the police, it is important that both police authorities should be informed simply by means of copies of the original letter. Surely, that cannot be particularly onerous in our time, in which there are plenty of photocopiers, desktop computers and, if it comes to that, the—I cannot remember what that blue paper that is used to produce a copy under the original is called.

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

NCR.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

Carbon paper! That is what I was thinking of. NCR is a new one to me.

With those reassurances, I hope that the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire will see fit to withdraw his amendment.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I am still not convinced that the Minister has answered my question. Let me go through the various stages as I see them, for my own clarification. Under the clause, if premises straddle two authorities, notices will be given to each of them; I accept that that is a fairly mundane and simple thing to do. Some time afterwards, those authorities will return the second of the two notices—the notices have to be sent in duplicate—to the applicant, who must then send a copy to the police forces in each of the two areas. Objections can then be raised, which go back to the licensing authority, which must hold a hearing and issue a counter notice. Will both police forces object or will they liaise? Will two hearings be held in two licensing areas? It is not clear how things would pan out.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

The hon. Gentleman describes the system admirably. He has explained precisely what will happen. However, he must acknowledge that objections to flower shows and so on will rarely happen. He is talking about instances that are rare and

he is over-egging the pudding. We should move on to the important points.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

That is not much of an answer.

We will not solve the problem here and now, but at some point the Government will need to come up with an amendment so that in the instances I was talking about—they may not be a run-of-the-mill occurrences—the people involved know that under legislation there is a procedure to follow. At the moment, the Minister does not know the solution, or the answer to my question—[Interruption.] With all due respect, I repeat that the Minister has not given an answer.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

The hon. Gentleman is wrong to say that I do not know the answer. I have given him the answer, and he does not particularly like it. If he wants to force a vote, that is fine by me. We have important business to get on to, but the hon. Gentleman is dragging out this trivial matter for some reason. He will complain later, as he has done at every other sitting, that we have not reached the important matters—but that is because of the hours we spend discussing issues like this.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

Well, the pressure is coming on now. At the end of the day, I have asked a simple question and have not received an answer. I am entitled to keep probing until—

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

Force a vote.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

Fine. All I am asking for is an acknowledgement that a situation could arise that needs clarification.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 6, Noes 8.

Clause 98 - Temporary event notice

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I beg to move amendment No. 417, in

clause 98, page 55, line 15, after 'not', insert

'(save as in subsection (9)'.

Joe Benton (Labour, Bootle)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment No. 237A, in

clause 98, page 55, line 15, leave out '72' and insert '96'.

Amendment No. 380, in

clause 98, page 55, line 15, leave out '72' and insert '120'.

Amendment No. 378, in

clause 98, page 55, line 29, leave out '72' and insert '96'.

Amendment No. 381, in

clause 98, page 55, line 29, leave out '72' and insert '120'.

Amendment No. 340, in

clause 98, page 55, line 33, leave out

'(being a number less than 500)'.

Amendment No. 418, in

clause 98, page 56, line 9, at end insert—

'(9) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (1) of this section, where the licensable activities are incidental to a nonlicensable activity conducted by the individual, the duration of the licensable activity may exceed 72 hours but may not exceed fourteen days.'.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

In speaking to this group, I propose to deal only with amendments Nos. 417 and 418, which I tabled. I am sure that my hon. Friends and others will refer to the other amendments in the group.

These are probing amendments. I was concerned that the restrictions on temporary event licences were too tight, and I came to that conclusion because many events take more than 72 hours. On the other hand, many events that take more than 72 hours are organised for profit rather than as community events, and I felt that an extension of the temporary event notice was more appropriate for a community event or a licensable activity that was incidental to another event than for simple profit-making events.

I have therefore drafted an amendment that would add to the clause a subsection (9), which tries to marry the idea of a licensable activity being incidental to non-licensable activities with the extension of the period of a temporary event notice to 14 days. I could not think of a temporary event that lasted for more than 14 days—and even if I could, it might be argued that such an event is not temporary. When I drafted this amendment I was thinking of events such as Cowes week, which takes 10 days, the royal show, which takes place over 4 or 5 days at Stoneleigh in Warwickshire, similar shows organised by major agricultural societies throughout the country, and other such events at which licensable activity may take place, but that activity is incidental to the non-licensable activity.

I am glad to say that an agricultural show is a non-licensable activity—at least, I hope it is, but I have begun to wonder about that since I heard the Minister mention flower shows. The Minister is looking blank.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

The Minister is not looking blank; he is amazed. After all these Committee sittings, is the hon. Gentleman seriously trying to argue that if alcohol is sold at agricultural shows—sometimes in vast quantities, and I say that having been to many of them—no licensing conditions should be imposed?

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

No. The Minister referred to flower shows in his final speech in the previous debate, but I understand from my reading of the Bill that neither flower shows nor agricultural shows are licensable activities, and I just wanted to make that clear, so that the Minister could correct me if he felt it necessary. He is not doing so, so I assume that I am right.

What is licensable about an agricultural show is the sale of alcohol, the conduct of music or dancing, or something else of that kind: the event itself is a non-licensable activity. The licensable activity—the sale of alcohol—is incidental to the non-licensable activity. It is not the purpose for which the agricultural show takes place; although it may appear to the Minister that that is the case, the fact is that other things go on at agricultural shows as well as drinking inside and outside marquees.

My argument is not that the licensable activity should not be licensed, but that the restriction of 72 hours on the availability of a temporary event notice should not apply until an event reaches a duration of 14 days, and that the qualification for that should be that the licensable activity is incidental to non-licensable activity.

I am trying to extend the scope for a temporary event licence, and I am asking the Minister to tell me whether he thinks it unreasonable to apply for a temporary event notice for a bar operated for four days at an event such as an agricultural show—it is clear that when he drafted the Bill, he thought that it was. My aim is as simple as that. I am concerned that people will have to apply for permanent licenses to operate a bar at, for example, an agricultural show, even if it lasts for only four days a year.

I now want to talk about Cowes week, and I am indebted to Chris Troup, the landlord of the Anchor Inn, Cowes—the concessionaire who runs events in the Cowes yacht haven—for assisting me with my questions. Mr. Troup is concerned about the back-to-back restriction on temporary event notices, and about the fact that only five temporary event notices would be available for a particular set of premises. Once again, we get into the question of what is a premises.

The Cowes yacht haven is a large area containing many birds, moorings, pontoons, and so forth. It is possible to define that area as more than one place by drawing a line on a map that does not represent any physical feature on the ground. If the marquees are placed in two separate places and those are defined as two separate sets of premises, it would be possible for Mr. Troup to serve five temporary event notices for place A, at the western end of the yacht haven, another five for place B, which immediately adjoins it but is not within the curtilage of place A, and again for place C, which is a little further along the yacht haven. If he could do that, he would be happy. However, he is concerned that the definition of premises is not in his control.

Should the person serving the notice define the premises, or is another body able to define those as well? The definition contained in clause 190 says that premises are ''any place''; but who will define them? If Mr. Troup cannot get more than five temporary event notices a year, I assume, although perhaps the Minister will correct me, that he should apply for a permanent licence for the Cowes yacht haven. The problem with that is contained in the operating schedule, to which I referred earlier. It is impossible, at the beginning of the period for which a permanent

licence runs, to predict precisely the use to which it will be put.

I would be happy if the Minister could assure me that the following example is acceptable—and so would Mr. Troup. Perhaps it would be possible to say, ''We intend to hold various events over a period of five years''—depending on the duration of the licence—''some of which will run from 8 am to midnight, although we intend to run others until 2 or 3 am. We are not yet sure about the size of the marquees, because we have not had the bookings. We are not exactly sure where the marquees will be, because we do not know whether there will be boats being renovated or repaired on the surface of the yacht haven. We have not yet made the arrangements for the location of the stalls, stands and other non-licensable activities on the yacht haven.'' If that were acceptable as an operating statement, Mr. Troup would be happy. However, if it were not acceptable, he would have to acquire a general premises licence and would repeatedly have to apply for modifications, or serve temporary event notices.

First, why is there a 72-hour limit? Would it not be more appropriate to have a much longer limit that would cover agricultural and sporting events? Secondly, why is there a back-to-back restriction? Thirdly, what is a ''place'', and who decides that? Fourthly, what level of detail is required in the operating schedule? Will it be sufficient to provide an operating schedule that gives general scope for meeting the specific needs that may arise within five days?

Mr. Troup tells me that many people come to Cowes week and say, ''We want to have a party. Organise one on Friday.'' He has to get the marquee, the drink and the band with five days' notice. At present he can do so by using his licence for the Anchor Inn, by applying for occasional licences, which he can get in 24 hours from the Isle of Wight magistrates court, and by getting entertainment licences, which are broad in scope, from the Isle of Wight council.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

That is much more complicated.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

Mr. Troup and I agree that the process is more complicated than having a single licence. Mr. Troup went out of his way to commend that aspect of the Bill, but he will not believe that things are less complicated if he has to use a crystal ball when he applies for his permanent premises licence to forecast exactly what uses his premises will be put to over the long period of the licence's duration.

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)

The clauses in question replace the Licensing (Occasional Permissions) Act 1983, which was brought in because of the inadequacies of the Licensing Act 1964 in dealing with temporary events. The 1983 Act has worked well. I am sorry to say that the clauses will in practice prove to be more restrictive than the 1983 Act. That is a pity when the Government say—and they sincerely intend this to be the case—that the Bill is liberalising and will give us a more permissive regime. Unless we can effect some of the amendments, we will end up with something considerably more draconian

than the existing legislation. Many events that currently take place on a semi-regular basis are perfectly permissible under the existing law, but will fall the wrong side of the law as drafted in the Bill.

One of my particular concerns is the number of hours. I understand that in proposing a limit of 72 hours the Government intended to accommodate long-weekend events—but would 72 hours do that? For example, often a beer tent at an event will open on Friday and carry on right through the weekend and into the bank holiday Monday evening. That exceeds 72 hours—albeit not by very much—so that sort of event will fall the wrong side of a 72-hour limit. I accept that wherever a line is drawn it will be a bit arbitrary and there will be things that fall the wrong side of it, but my object is to persuade the Minister that in drawing his line at 72 hours, he has drawn it just a little too tightly.

There are two relevant amendments. Mine suggests extending the 72 hours to 120 hours. The other amendment, in the name of the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire, who will no doubt speak to it, suggests 96 hours. The Conservatives initially tabled an amendment specifying 168 hours. They have trimmed that back to 96 hours, or from seven days to four days. I am sure that that was done in an attempt to be reasonable and to entice the Minister to agree that the line should be drawn just a little beyond the 72 hours.

If the matter is considered constructively, the Minister, being a reasonable man, may be persuaded to move the line a little. Many events—for example, carnival weeks, music festivals, one-off shows and so on—may fall on the wrong side, and my suggestion of five days or the alternative suggestion of four days, would allow many events that have taken place under the 1983 Act to continue. Drawing the line at 72 hours is too tight and will prevent such events from taking place. I urge the Minister to think about that. The amendments are constructive; we are trying to find a slightly more lenient limit.

Amendment No. 340, in the name of the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire, concerns the limit of 500 people participating. That is new and, as I understand it, could cause problems in practice. Presumably, the limit relates to 500 people at any one time. If a festival lasts for a few days and a beer tent is running, clearly it is possible that more than 500 people will attend. Equally, if the beer tent is tangential to the principal event—the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner) touched on this point—it would be difficult for those running the beer tent to have the slightest idea of how many people would use it, either at any one time or in toto.

I also want the Minister to tell us whether the 500 people include the event staff. If a beer festival attracts 500 people, it will have a large staff—perhaps 30 or even 50—working in shifts and relays. Will they be included in the 500, and how will the number be policed?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

I am trying to think through the hon. Gentleman's argument. If he is arguing for more than 72 hours—there are good arguments for flexibility—he

is also arguing for removal of the ceiling of 500. The Glastonbury festival, for example, might be held under a temporary event notice and the ability to regulate such festivals, which attract 200,000 people and give rise to huge public safety and other concerns, would continue with the light-touch regulation.

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)

If that were the case, that would presumably happen at the moment. Neither of the two limits that I am discussing exists in current legislation. I do not believe that the Glastonbury festival would try to get away with that. Common sense suggests that the scale of the festival requires it to be properly licensed and policed. There may be a need for a limit on numbers, although I am sceptical about that, but we have not had one in the past and that does not seem to have caused problems. However, if one is necessary, I am inclined to the view that 500 is a remarkably low limit for some of the events that I have described.

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many venues already have capacity numbers imposed by health and safety regulations? That provides control, and perhaps it is unnecessary to reinforce it in the Bill.

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. There are other ways of ensuring public safety and public order. Temporary event notices are for ad hoc or semi-regular events and many will be out of doors. The Government would do well to think a little more about the 72-hour limit, which is too tight. We have not had a limit of 500 people in the past, so is there really any good reason why we need it now?

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I wish to speak to amendments Nos. 237A, 378 and, in passing, 340. The hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey) has some powerful arguments. He alluded to the fact that an earlier amendment that we tabled would have changed the number of hours from 72 to 168, and his analysis of why we cut that figure back was very percipient. The Government's figure is 72 hours, and so far this morning the Minister has suggested that they wish to accommodate as many temporary events as possible by extending the hours as far as they can to cover events that take place over a weekend.

I am sure that the hon. Member for North Devon has received much well-meaning material from institutions and organisers of events who say that 72 hours is just not long enough for many of the events that take place, in particular during some of the holiday weekends. We did not want to get into a situation where the Government could reject out of hand a move from three to seven days, so we cut that back in our new amendment, No. 237A, to 96 hours, or four days. The hon. Gentleman has suggested 120 hours. I do not think that either of us is saying that we know exactly what the number of hours ought to be, but we are confident that 72 hours is not long enough and will not enable many events that currently take place as temporary events to continue on that basis. They will be forced into the premises licence route, which is more expensive and time consuming.

We have been approached by the Country Houses Association, which holds many temporary events

throughout the year. The income from those events is terribly important to it in maintaining our heritage—something that the Minister's Department is keen to do. That association is concerned that on occasion it will fall foul of the 72-hour limit. As the hon. Member for North Devon rightly pointed out, the 1983 Act has worked extremely well. No one whom I have contacted on the matter has said that that is not working and needs to be changed. We take a risk if we change things that are working perfectly well. We should be advising the Government not to drift too far away from the current situation. I know that they want to tidy it up, and that they want a light touch, but they might not achieve that with the Bill's current wording.

Beer festivals have been mentioned. The Campaign for Real Ale has written to us to say that about one third of its festivals run for longer than three days. The measure will cut out a considerable number of the beer festivals run under the aegis of CAMRA, and that would be detrimental to the interests of not only the drinkers concerned but of the brewers of real ales. I should have thought that we, and the Government, would want to encourage those.

Amendment No. 340 is probing, and seeks to find out how the Government arrived at a figure of 500. The hon. Member for South Dorset intervened to mention Glastonbury, with which he has been heavily involved. That is off the Richter scale, in terms of the numbers that we are discussing here. The hon. Member for North Devon made the point that we would not expect Glastonbury or other festivals of that size to be covered by temporary event notices. There is a balance to be arrived at. We are being told that a crowd of 500 is difficult to police and gauge, and it may well be that such an event attracts far more people than usual, because it is a sunny day or whatever.

The second point is about a beer tent at a local show—I can think of one in my own constituency. The show itself may be attended by thousands of people, but the beer tent may only have a few hundred in it at any one time. One cannot be sure when making the application how many people will use the alcohol facility. It is not clear how that uncertainty would be accommodated.

The Government ought to take on board the lobbying that has taken place. I am sure that they too have had discussions with the people who have been talking to us. They are still unhappy that the hours that were shown in clause 98(1) particularly, which are repeated in clause 72(5), do not accommodate many of the events that currently take place, and those running such events would like to see some movement if possible. Our amendments our probing. The limit of 96 hours is as arbitrary as one of 72, but we are asking the Government to increase the time to enable more events to continue in the usual way.

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

I shall start where my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire ended, and

talk about amendment No. 340, before moving on to discuss amendment No. 237A.

I have received representations from people who organise events—as I am sure many other Committee members have—about the role of the 500-person upper limit. Those people appreciate the fact that there should be a limit of some description for such events. Pat O'Neill from the southern Hampshire branch of CAMRA highlighted that, and he agreed that there ought to be an upper limit. He went on to point out that some events that CAMRA runs locally would be precluded under a temporary event notice.

The Eastleigh beer festival takes place in a hall with a capacity limit of 300, and would not be affected by the upper limit of 500, but until recently there was a Winchester beer festival at which, given the size of the venue, there could be 800 people. Under the Bill, that could not take place. The number of attendees would have to be restricted, with the consequent problems that my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire pointed out: people would have to be clocked in and out to ensure the limit was not breached.

There is also a Southampton festival, which has between 900 and 1,000 customers for a Friday evening session. Under the Bill that would not be permissible. What happens if we lose those festivals? The benefit to the local community will be lost.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

I hesitate to speak again on this point, but this is not a question of whether those festivals take place, but whether they are licensed through the premises licensing procedure or the very light-touch regulation of the temporary event notice.

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

The hon. Gentleman makes a fairly obvious point. The question is when we should allow people to benefit from the light-touch regulation, and what cut-off point we should adopt to decide whether people should follow the premises licence route rather than the temporary event notice route. The argument is that many festivals are now organised by people who take advantage of the 1983 legislation to which the hon. Member for North Devon referred. The festivals are run under those rules in conjunction with the capacity limits set by the individual premises that are used.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

The hon. Gentleman knows that the present limit is 24 hours.

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

The Minister's point is irrelevant, because I want to focus on the number of people who are present at events. The people who organise festivals in southern Hampshire are well versed in the use of the Licensing (Occasional Permissions) Act 1983. A person who wrote to me believes that they were one of the first to take advantage of the occasional licences granted under the 1983 Act.

All we are asking is that such events be allowed to take place at the capacity limit. Is there a sensible reason for setting the limit at 500? Should not there be a better upper limit so that people who organise festivals can benefit from the light-touch regulation set out in the temporary event notice provisions?

I also wish to reflect on the duration of events. We touched on whether 72 hours is the right limit, and there have been arguments for increasing the time. CAMRA's experience is that many bank holiday events that start on a Friday evening and end on a Monday exceed 72 hours. Events held during the four-day period of the Easter weekend could start at lunchtime on Friday and end at lunchtime on Monday, or even later. Many people would argue that we should consider the restrictive nature of the 72-hour limit, and perhaps be a little more flexible about how we determine the duration of the temporary event notice so that people are not discouraged from putting on events by the restrictive nature of some of the Bill's provisions.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

We have had an excellent debate, with some strong arguments. Hon. Members are right to point out that it is never easy to set such limits; indeed, it is very difficult. I shall try to answer all the questions, but I wish to preface my remarks by saying that arguments completely counter to those that we have heard this morning could be advanced if we were representing the interests of the constituents who live near such events. Hon. Members have, very properly, spoken about balance. Let us remember that when we talk about balance and trying to get the limits right, we must consider those who live close to the venues.

I have had it put to me, as I am sure other hon. Members have, that at least the misery has a time limit—that is a phrase to remember. Without proper and rigorous examination of venues and events, we must ensure that the limits on time and on the number of people who are likely to participate do not allow people to take advantage of the situation, to the detriment of those who live nearby.

On previous amendments, I have stated that the system set out in the Bill is designed to deliver a light touch. However, there must be safeguards and controls to protect the rights of local residents and to prevent unscrupulous individuals from exploiting the arrangements to circumvent the licensing regime. The hon. Member for Isle of Wight has tabled amendments Nos. 417 and 418, which would allow licensable activities to continue under a temporary event notice for up to 14 days, rather than the 72 hours for which the Bill provides, if such licensable activities are incidental, as he put it, to non-licensable activities.

I do not believe that the amendments are necessary. In response to concerns raised in another place, the Government have exempted all incidental music from the requirement for authorisation altogether. If someone wishes to organise, say, a week-long flower festival, and wants recorded classical music playing in the background or a pianist playing background music in the corner, they will not need to give a temporary event notice.

Although it is easy to think of circumstances in which music may be incidental to another, non-licensable, activity, it is more difficult to imagine how the sale of alcohol could ever be purely an incidental activity. The hon. Member for Isle of Wight was quite right to point out that, although many of us might enjoy going for other reasons, the main purpose

of an agricultural show, or flower show, is to watch the animals or look at the flowers, or otherwise take part. Nevertheless, drinking can form a very important part of such occasions. He well knows that, very occasionally, things can get out of hand. That is why we have licensing laws in the first place.

We would not want the supply of alcohol to be treated as incidental to other non-licensable activities, but that is what might happen as a result of his amendment. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman does not want that to happen either, because of the implications. More importantly, the amendments are not desirable. I think that we all accept that the sale or supply of alcohol raises some very special issues, and it is only right, for proper public protection, that those issues should be scrutinised. I doubt whether the public would thank us if we put the sale or consumption of alcohol outside the licensing regime altogether because of some notion that it is incidental to the main purpose of an agricultural show or a flower show. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not mean that to happen, but that is the sense that I get from the amendments.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

In that case I have to apologise to the Minister, because I have not made myself sufficiently clear. That is indeed the intent of the amendment; but as I understand it, that would mean a more, not less, rigorous regime than the one provided by the temporary event notice procedure for events lasting less than 72 hours. Why is it possible to license an activity for less than 72 hours without any scrutiny but not for more than 72 hours, when that activity is merely incidental to an event?

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

This is interesting, because I sense that the hon. Gentleman does not much like the temporary event notice system that we propose to introduce. It is light touch, and he is right to draw a distinction between what has existed until now and what will happen from now on. The light-touch regulation in the Bill does exactly as he describes, because the only people who can object are the police, on the grounds of concerns over possible criminal behaviour. That is why, as I shall argue later, it is so important to have the limits, as we have proposed.

I should say now that I am perfectly prepared, on the basis of the arguments that hon. Members have advanced, to think again about the actual time limits. There is no question about that, but I argue that time limits are essential. If we live very close to such an event, and for all kinds of reasons, have our lives made rather unpleasant as a consequence—which can happen—there should be an end in sight.

I hope that the Committee can get away for a moment from the notion that temporary events happen only in the sylvan countryside. They also happen in cities, towns and the streets in which we all live. We have to realise that. Temporary events take place right in the middle of densely populated residential areas.

John Grogan (Labour, Selby)

I am pleased that my hon. Friend said that the Government might seriously

consider whether 72 hours is appropriate. He was right to say that under existing legislation, 24 hours is the limit for a temporary event notice. There is also a limit of 12 per year. At present, however, the Campaign for Real Ale, for example, can apply for four successive periods of 24 hours—but such flexibility will not exist under the new system.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

Yes, I concede that. I would not want to blight the work of CAMRA. It does a good job.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

Will the Minister give way?

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

May I finish answering my hon. Friend's question? The current restrictions are serious. The bureaucratic burdens are often great and I hope that my hon. Friend will acknowledge that our proposed scheme will be much cheaper and less of an effort to organise for bodies such as CAMRA. If we can achieve the right time and capacity limits, they will be of great benefit to such organisations.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I want to go back to the remarks with which the Minister prefaced his response. He alluded to the same points more recently. A balance must be struck between the ease with which temporary event notices can be applied for and given, and protection for residents in the local area. We have been lobbied about the hours limit by people who run existing events and festivals, who are saying that such a provision will constrain them. In that sense, such events have been happening for some time and they have not created problems or difficulties—if they had, they would have been stopped. We are talking about supporting events that already take place. People say that the future of those events may be put in jeopardy if the limits are set too tightly.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

Of course I acknowledge that. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will have guessed that we have been lobbied at least as hard as the Conservative party.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

Probably more.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

Yes, probably a good deal harder. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman acknowledges that it is never easy to strike such balances and introduce such safeguards.

I want to answer some of the questions asked by the hon. Member for Isle of Wight when he spoke to amendments Nos. 417 and 418. I doubt whether the public would thank us if we put alcohol that is sold on a temporary basis outside the licensing regime. The hon. Gentleman tried to clarify why he framed the amendments in such a way. As they stand, the proposals could open up a way for alcohol to be supplied without a notice or an objection by anyone, except the police on the grounds of crime and disorder, for up to a fortnight at a time. I think that he would acknowledge that several problems could be generated by such a scenario. In a sense, he has admitted that by hedging around his proposals. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman does not wish events of such length at which alcohol is provided to be treated in that way.

Licensable activities are the sale by retail of alcohol, the supply of alcohol by a club and the provision of regulated entertainment and late-night refreshment.

The hon. Gentleman referred to agricultural shows, as did several hon. Members. Most agricultural shows are attended by more than 499 people, so they go above the limit and would need a premises licence for a temporary period. Those licences can be obtained by applying for them. We will come on to the figure of 500 in a moment, because I want to make that clear to him. Most, if not all, agricultural shows apply for proper premises licences and temporary event notices or the current equivalent, and there is a long practice of that. They are usually very big events and they want to cover themselves for all eventualities.

Mark Field (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)

The Minister said that a temporary premises licence could be obtained. Can he explain how that works? I was unaware that that was so. Obviously, we are dealing with temporary event notices, but I thought that a premises licence applied to a specific period and could not be granted on a temporary basis.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

As I understand it, if the applicant requires a premises licence to be temporary, he or she can apply for one. What that means for costs, I cannot tell the hon. Gentleman at the moment, but I will try to find out for him because that would matter.

Mark Field (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)

Fine. It sounds as though in almost all circumstances it would make sense to apply for a temporary event notice, rather than a temporary premises licence. If the hon. Gentleman could come back to me on that, I would be grateful.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

Absolutely. As for the question of marquees, raised by the hon. Member for Isle of Wight, many festivals have them. I cannot remember the name of the gentleman whom he mentioned.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

Mr. Troup.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

No doubt, the hon. Gentleman will send a copy of the Hansard report of this Committee to Mr. Troup. We have mentioned his name at least four times now. [Interruption.] That is five times.

It is open to Mr. Troup or any other applicant to say that he intends to hold a temporary event at premises that he would describe as covering one, two or three marquees. It would be for the licensing authority to decide whether the notice was valid with respect to those marquees; and whether the premises consisted of one place or several places. That is an important provision, because it is the licensing authority that must make those decisions. The authorities do so now and they should do after the Bill becomes law.

The hon. Gentleman made a good point about crystal balls and applicants not being able to tell in advance whether 100 or 1,000 people would attend the event. It depends on the bookings and so on. We have tried to make temporary event notices flexible and it will be interesting to see which way the hon. Gentleman jumps when we come to the amendments that would slow down the process by giving longer time limits to applications and the way in which they must be approved.

If the premises user were unable to say what he or she would use the premises for, it would be difficult for responsible authorities and interested parties to assess

the impact on the licensing objectives and to decide whether to make representations. That is the way in which the system works now. The authorities must have a clear idea of what is going to be happening and—I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would agree—it is the responsibility of the licensee to have some idea of the licensable activities for which he or she is seeking authorisation. I acknowledge that that is not always easy and the hon. Gentleman has made that clear. Where activities are unforeseen, the temporary event notice system provides an appropriate fallback. Failing that, he or she is perfectly entitled to apply for a variation of the premises licence.

The hon. Gentleman referred to the back-to-back restriction. That gets right to the heart of the business of trying to balance local residents' problems with the aspiration of a temporary event notice applicant to have a successful event. If there were no back-to-back restriction of 24 hours, nothing would prevent an individual from a holding a single event lasting for 15 days by applying for five temporary event notices each lasting 72 hours. That is a long time for the people who happen to be living close to the venue. It is a question of judging the limit.

The hon. Gentleman talked about a party in a marquee. I did not quite understand whether he meant that the alcohol would be given away all evening, or for part of it and then sold from a pay bar. A party at which alcohol is to be given away freely to those attending requires no temporary event notice or premises licence. I hope that Mr. Troup will draw comfort from that.

The hon. Member for North Devon asked a reasonable question about how one polices the 500 limit. It is not easy. There is currently a requirement on somebody—it could be a steward—to collect numbers. I am told that that happens widely. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will spend the summer checking entries to marquees to see whether that is the case. It is certainly the case where restrictions are put on licensed premises; for example, there might be an upstairs room used as a bar. As he knows, the penalties for not carrying out vital functions are fierce.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I do not want to prolong the Minister's speech, but I have a further question. Does he accept that Cowes is so warm that the walls of the marquee are seldom used, so it is literally impossible to tell how many people are flowing in and out?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

Is it still a marquee if it has a retracting roof?

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

We shall not get into a discussion about types of marquee.

These things are never easy. There are ways of adhering to the law, and we must ensure that the laws that we create are adhered to. I gave the hon. Member for North Devon one example that I have come across. If it proves impossible to police the number of people who are going in and out of a marquee, others measures will have to be taken. I know that Westminster is very strict in that regard, and the reason why I know is because of the receptions that are

held on College green and elsewhere in the summer. I notice that when the sides of the marquees are rolled up ropes are put around the structure to stop people from moving in an out. Westminster is strict about admitting people and counting them as they leave. I do not know whether others throughout the country are as strict about numbers.

The hon. Member for North Devon asked whether the measure was liberalising. He fears that existing legislation will be undermined and that it will not be helpful for temporary event licences. I guess that he is implying that the provisions are potentially more restrictive than the current legislation. I would very much like to hear of an example. My hon. Friend the Member for Selby (Mr. Grogan) gave us one; he said that it is possible to have back-to-back 24-hour permissions, using a licensee. However, as I tried to point out, many problems could arise in those circumstances, too.

The hon. Member for North Devon is quite right to say that we have to make sure that the legislation does not become more restrictive. That is why I have said that I will certainly consider some of the limits that we have talked about today. The Licensing (Occasional Permissions) Act 1983, to which the hon. Gentleman referred, allows only non-profit-making organisations to obtain an occasional permission to sell alcohol. That is an important point; I do not know what kind of lobbying he has been subject to, but we have been lobbied by many organisations that have said that the current situation is very restrictive. In some ways, I agree with the hon. Gentleman that, unless we get the provisions right, they could be seen as being more restrictive. However, I hope that he will realise that there are pluses to the provisions, too, and that we are making the notice more open and easier to obtain.

The current limit for permission to sell alcohol is 24 hours. No one other than a licensee or publican can sell alcohol over a period longer than 24 hours—unless, of course, they work out a device such as the one described by my hon. Friend the Member for Selby.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

My recollection is that it would be possible to use the Theatres Act 1968 to licence a village hall, for example, and then to hold a series of events during the year in which alcohol could be sold. All that would be required to put on such an event would be the public entertainments licence. That is one possible mechanism for getting round the provisions.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I understand that that is used sometimes as a means of holding the kind of events that my hon. Friend describes. We are trying to make things simpler and much clearer, and give more people the opportunity to hold temporary events in the way that I have described.

The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire mentioned CAMRA. Relatively few festivals of the nature that he mentions are likely to fall foul of the provisions or be subject to our limit, although he has mentioned some that do, and we have had notice of

them, too. My hon. Friend the Member for Selby mentioned at least one festival that goes on for four days. I am not sure that he told me which one it was—

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

Lots of them.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

Such events can start on Friday and finish on a Monday; the hon. Gentleman is quite right there. The hon. Member for North Devon said that the provisions do not infringe much on such festivals, but they can do, and we have got to get the measures right.

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

Will the Minister give way?

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

Just a minute; before I lose my thread—I am capable of doing that, as the hon. Gentleman knows—I should say that many of those events will have more than 500 attendees, and so would not qualify under our proposals anyway. Many more will be held in premises already covered by premises licences; we should remember that. It is important to maintain a sense of proportion and balance, and I am sure that hon. Members would agree.

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

CAMRA advised us that a third of its festivals run for longer than three days, and therefore would not be able to take place under the provisions of a temporary event notice as they are set out in the Bill.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that. Either they will become shorter festivals or we will have to think of some other way of getting around the problem. He is quite right to remind the Committee that a third of CAMRA's events last longer than the 72 hours.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

It is not just the limit on hours that will restrict the festivals in future if the Bill goes through unamended. CAMRA has told us that a third of its events would be caught by the 72-hour limit. If the Minister is now saying that because the 500-people limit has come in, that will mean that most of the festivals with more than 500 attendees will not be able to take place under a temporary event notice, then it will not be just a third of CAMRA events that will be affected, it will be even more.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

Yes, a temporary premises licence would be needed if there were more than 500 people in attendance, for the reasons that I made clear earlier. I defend that limit and say that the hon. Gentleman must remember his constituents, who may live near the place where one of those events is taking place. We must maintain a balance. I see that the hon. Gentleman is nodding. He therefore does believe that we should maintain a balance. We must decide what the proper limit should be.

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)

The Minister has told us that someone should monitor attendance with a clicker. I will use the example of a beer tent at a three-day agricultural festival. Is he saying that the limit of 500 people is a total limit throughout those three days? If the festival has been open for a few hours, and the 501st person presents himself at the marquee, must the beer tent be dismantled for the remaining two and a half days?

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

No. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman asked that question. I missed that point on my briefing

notes earlier. The limit is 500 people at any time. Therefore, throughout the course of a day, thousands of people could attend, but the capacity limit is 500 at a time. If I am wrong, I am sure that I will be passed a note to tell me so.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

We have reached a fairly critical point in our discussion, which I would like to have placed on record so that it will be clear for those reading the report of this debate, especially members of CAMRA, who will no doubt be sent copies by the hon. Member for Selby.

The Minister said that there must be a balance. I accept that, but we are talking about events that already take place, where there are no problems such as unseemly behaviour and so forth. Among those events are CAMRA beer festivals. The Minister has just accepted that, under the 72-hour limit, a third of those that took place under the old regime of a temporary notice will disappear. As for the 500-people limit, that will affect those festivals even more keenly. Events that currently take place, which are no problem whatsoever to communities, will no longer be afforded the route of a temporary event notice under the 1983 Act. Organisers will have to apply for a premises licence—albeit a temporary one—with all the costs and bureaucracy involved. Does the Minister think that that is a deregulatory measure?

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I do not believe that to be the case. We have talked to CAMRA at length about this. A third of its events may run for longer than three days, but in future most of those will be held in premises that are already covered by premises licences. The hon. Gentleman says that CAMRA has not said that, but that is what CAMRA has told us. We have come across that sort of lobbying before. CAMRA will try to get the most effective case put forward in the Committee. CAMRA has told us that a third of its events may last longer than 72 hours, but that many of that third are already run on premises that have a premises licence. The figure is therefore likely to be lower than a third. That is not to diminish the force of the hon. Gentleman's argument, because it is important that we do not cause disruption to a festival that may be important to a local economy and to the people who go to enjoy themselves, which is run by CAMRA or any other organisation. We will look very carefully at that issue. I remind the hon. Gentleman, however, that lobbying is a fine and dark art. He will have been lobbied by all sorts of people, as indeed have I.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

Does the Minister accept that, where an event takes place on premises that already possess a premises licence, the licence may not encompass the sort of activity involved because the operating schedule was set up before the event was planned? He kindly referred to that subject earlier. There is nothing in the Bill about a modification of a premises licence. Any event outside the terms of the operating schedule will have to be dealt with under a new premises licence application.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

With respect to the hon. Gentleman, we have discussed the matter endlessly. The premises licence is different; the holder may at any time apply for a modification to his or her licence, for example, if

he or she wants to hold an entertainment in a licensed premises. Other clauses deal extensively with that and with how that should be done. There is nothing to prevent a premises licence holder from applying for a modification to their licence.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

The Minister said earlier that people could apply for a premises licence for a temporary period. Clause 26(1)(b) says:

''Subject to clauses, 27 and 28, a premises licence has effect until such time as . . . if it specifies that it has effect for a limited period, that period expires.''

Accordingly, a person can apply for a premises licence for a temporary period.

Many events that take place at present under the 1983 Act will be affected by the new legislation, including beer festivals, although I do not just refer to those. For example, a beer festival in a village hall that had taken place for some years under the old system would, under the new system, have to be covered by a premises licence if it lasted longer than 72 hours and if more than 500 people attended. Although that festival took place only once a year, somebody would have to apply for the licence locally. Would that person come from the local village community, or would they be on the village hall committee? Whoever they were, they would not want the hassle of applying for a personal licence, designating a premises supervisor and so forth. We shall discuss that matter further on a later set of amendments. It is easy to say that a person could apply for a premises licence. That would, however, prevent some activities that are already taking place—with no problems for the community—from happening at all.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

The hon. Gentleman may talk about such events, but they do not appear out of the air, as if by magic. At present, people must go through a long process to get permission. In most instances, the proposed regime would make things much simpler. The hon. Gentleman is properly using an extreme example. Indeed, I have been accused of doing that in the Committee dozens of times. Once a year, there may be a four-day festival in a village—I wish he would not use the word ''village'' as such an event could take place in the middle of a city. CAMRA, for example, holds one of its biggest festivals in Olympia, which has a premises licence, likes the business and is not likely to raise any objection. The hon. Gentleman presumably is talking about an event taking place in a large hall, or in a premises that does not normally have a premises licence.

If thousands of people attended a well known and important festival—

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

500 people.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

We are talking about more than 499 people attending. If that happened, the hon. Gentleman is saying that it would be an onerous duty to have to apply in that instance for a temporary premises licence, but it is not so onerous. If the organisers realised that the event was going to be big, they would also realise that many interests would be involved in judging whether and where it should take place, and that some consideration should be given to

the hours involved and the likely consequences of the sale of alcohol.

The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire is right to say that there is a fine balance to be drawn. We have tried to lay down a reasonable time limit and to balance the welfare of residents and businesses living and operating in the area with the needs of the organisers and those who go along to the event to enjoy themselves. The judgment is fine and I have no doubt that there will be instances—the hon. Gentleman referred to one—that fall on the wrong side of the line for the organisers. However, he must pay some attention to the lobbying that I would receive from his constituents if modifications to the Bill allowed longer periods of music and drinking under a temporary event notice with no control over the number of people. Some of the consequences could be serious.

I told the hon. Gentleman that the matter is one of judgment and balance. That is not easy, but we believe that we have got it right, although I am prepared to reconsider some of the limits.

Many beer festivals involve thousands of people. They are not all like the Munich beer festival, but I have been to some big ones where the organisers have properly understood the necessity of carrying the community and the licensing authority with them when they applied for premises licences. The Brecon jazz festival is probably the biggest jazz festival in Britain, although Cheltenham would probably disagree. Most events are held in pubs, but some are held in school halls, community halls and so on. The organisers have got their act together superbly and ensure that they are properly licensed and covered for the events. They have not told me that that is onerous. Cowes week on the Isle of Wight is a long-established event, which works well and we must ensure that under the Bill it continues to work well. However, there will be occasions when temporary event notices are not the right way forward if local residents, the police and the authorities demand more stringent restrictions and more monitoring of what is likely to occur.

I have spoken for long enough, so I shall sit down in the hope that the amendment will be withdrawn.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

This has indeed been a good debate and it is not the fault of any Committee member that it has also been muddled. We have been trying to consider too many issues, but that is what the licensing authorities and the applicants will have to do for the sort of far-in-advance applications that will be necessary if the temporary event notice procedure remains as the Minister put it in the Bill.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that we shall come to clauses under which the limit is 10 days. In the White Paper, we suggested five days, but we bowed to pressure from the various authorities that must consider such matters and extended that to 10 days, which is a short period. Withdrawal must be up to 24 hours before the event

takes place, which is a fine limit and provides tremendous flexibility to both the applicants for a temporary event notice and the authorities that must consider it.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

Indeed. We will come to the time limits for applications. The issue is how the appropriate authorities draw a balance. I have got the message that the Minister is willing to reconsider the duration of temporary event notices. He has not convinced me that the procedure to apply for a premises notice will be sufficiently flexible in circumstances other than someone saying, ''We are going to use these premises over the next five years for all sorts of activities at all sorts of times but we promise that they will not go on after midnight for more than two weeks a year.'' Such an application is understandable, but it will be difficult for local people to accept it. If local people accept an application drawn up in broad terms and if the licensing authority accepts it, the Minister's proposed restrictions on temporary event notices will not get in the way of running events such as Cowes week.

My great concern is that a licensing authority will receive an application and say that it is too vague and that a modification must be applied for every time the arrangement is changed. The applicant would therefore have to go through the full rigmarole of modifying the application, which is exactly the same as the full rigmarole of applying for a premises licence in the first place. Cowes week works at the moment on the ability of the magistrates to provide an occasional licence within 24 hours, usually with discussion beforehand between the organiser and the clerk to the bench, and the ability of Isle of Wight council to provide a broad entertainment licence, which vitally does not cover alcohol. It is much easier for people to accept entertainments such as noise—I am sorry, they are called bands—knowing that the alcohol issue will be dealt with separately than it is for them to have the two lumped together.

My great concern—I am almost repeating myself and apologise to the Committee for that—is that people will not be able to gaze into their crystal ball and will be put through a process of constantly applying and reapplying for modifications. That will involve regular and repeated consultations and additional cost, which will make it more difficult for people to run existing events.

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

The debate has shown that there is not a clear view on the transition from a temporary events notice to a temporary premises licence. My hon. Friend is right to say that people will go through the same process as applying for a full premises licence. I should like the Minister to give us an indication of the guidance that will be issued to local authorities to enable people to apply for a temporary premises licence without going through the same detailed process as that required for an ordinary premises licence.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I endorse my hon. Friend's question and I should also like to hear it answered. I should also like the Minister to help by giving some guidance on the fee level for applications for a modification.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I do not want again to remind the hon. Gentleman of this—I am sure that he is aware of it—but we have dealt extensively with modifications and fees in previous clauses. The clause is about temporary event notices; it is not about modifications to premises licences. The Committee has already agreed that.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I accept that. I keep raising the matter because the Minister demonstrated that the temporary event notice procedure is not the appropriate procedure to be used by people who are organising temporary events to the extent that they are currently. I would like the Minister to confirm what the Committee has agreed so that it is on the record for Mr. Troup and others who may read it that they do not have to go through the same procedure and pay the same fees every time they apply for a modification to a premises licence. An application cannot be made both clearly and far in advance for events that vary as much as some of the events in question. I accept that the Minister may feel that we have dealt with the matter adequately. I do not propose to press my amendments, but I may want to return to the matter in the clause stand part debate.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

We are grateful to the Minister for the thorough way in which he has answered the questions in this part of the debate. He has gone a long way towards assuaging some of our fears. We welcome the fact that he is prepared to consider the time limit of 72 hours. He did not commit himself to any other figure, but he did say that if he saw evidence of severe problems arising for bodies or groups of people because of the 72-hour limit, he would reconsider the matter. We are not saying that we know precisely what the figure should be. There is agreement among the Opposition that, from the evidence that we have been given, 72 hours does not allow certain things to take place that take place at present under the temporary event notice route. We are obliged that the Minister is going to reconsider the matter.

On amendment No. 340 and the upper limit of 499 people, I am still not convinced that such a limit is workable. At the end of the day, we need something that is enforceable by the authorities, particularly in this instance the police, who can close a temporary event down immediately if they so choose and who are approached when the notice is first given to determine whether they think that there is a problem. I do not see how anyone is going to enforce the 499 limit in a marquee or a function room. If we are going to make law, let us make it practical and enforceable. Specifying a figure of 500 means that the law will be unenforceable. If that is so, why include the figure in the Bill? If the Minister insists on having an upper limit for temporary event applications, I will not demur. An upper limit is right. However, the Government need to think again about how the figure is determined. A figure of 500 is not enforceable.

Surely the key issue is that we are making new law. Presumably, we start off from the point that we want to improve the situation for all interested parties, both those who hold events and those who live near them and have to put up with them if they are noisy and boisterous. However, if the restrictions relating to hours and numbers make it more difficult than the

Licensing (Occasional Permissions) Act 1983 for groups, bodies and people who run events to do what they are doing now—I am talking not about new events, but about those that currently take place—in a straightforward and simple manner, we are making bad law. I am not convinced by the arguments so far.

As I said, the Minister has done a terrific job this morning in covering the ground but I am not sure whether the Bill is right yet. I shall not press the amendments because, as I said at the outset, they are probing amendments. However, I ask him to go away and consider the implications for the groups that enjoy an easy application route for such events under current legislation. Can he put hand on heart and say that the new law will not make it more onerous for them to continue their activities in future?

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

This has been a useful debate, from which I have learned a great deal. Briefly, licensees are very careful about capacity limits. Under the present regime, they stand to suffer serious consequences if those limits are exceeded. The limits are often set and adhered to most strictly for nightclubs. The nightclub owners organisation is keen that limits should be set on pubs as well, but we have resisted that lobbying. I can see the reason for it, but there is often nothing to prevent a licensing authority from imposing a capacity limit on super-pubs or other licensed premises, where the authority or the responsible bodies fear that some sort of danger could be involved. Licensees are aware of such matters and are very strict about whom they do and do not let in.

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)

There is one point that I raised which I do not think the Minister has answered. Do staff at an event count towards the total number?

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

Yes. I am reliably informed that the number does include the staff, so that reduces the number of people who can be let into the marquee or other place where the event happens to be. I can tell the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for Selby that I have been trying to tot up the figures. If at a long CAMRA weekend, alcohol starts to be sold at 6 pm on Friday and finishes being sold at 11 pm on Sunday—the organisation having not taken advantage of the new law to stay open until 2 o'clock on Monday morning—by my calculations, that works out at about 77 hours. If we add three to that, it takes the total up to about 80 hours.

The matter is debatable, of course, as hon. Members acknowledged. I shall think hard about the hours and I hope that Committee members will also do so, thinking especially, as I have tried to emphasise, about those unfortunates who live next door to some of the premises. They will see 72 hours as the light at the end of the tunnel and would be worried if we extended the limit much beyond that. We shall, however, examine the matter carefully.

I do not intend to go through the variations in licences and licence conditions, but there is no reason why the publican to whom the hon. Member for Isle of Wight referred would have to amend his premises licence repeatedly. As the hon. Gentleman told us, Cowes week is a long-established event, which arrives

yearly. It is not a shock to the publican, the licence holder or the community. I am sure that being the business man that he seems to be, he knows what, roughly, is required. Variations in licence conditions would be few and far between and not onerous in terms of cost.

Joe Benton (Labour, Bootle)

Does the hon. Member for Isle of Wight wish to withdraw the amendment?

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

Yes. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I beg to move amendment No. 345, in

clause 98, page 55, line 19, leave out '18' and insert '25'.

Joe Benton (Labour, Bootle)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment No. 415, in

clause 118, page 64, line 30, leave out from 'applicant' to 'possesses' in line 31.

Amendment No. 351, in

clause 118, page 64, line 30, leave out '18' and insert '21'.

Amendment No. 414, in

clause 118, page 64, line 36, at end insert—

'(2A) The authority may not grant the licence if it appears that the applicant has not attained the age of 18.'.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I shall speak briefly to amendment No. 345, which is a probing amendment to ascertain the Government's thinking about why the minimum age for applying for a temporary event notice should be 18. There are reasons for increasing the minimum age, bearing in mind that there may be problems with raves held under temporary event notices, and that younger people are more likely than older people to be involved in such events.

I am not suggesting that there is a massive difference between 18 and 25, but concerns have been raised that the measure would give opportunities to fairly young people to apply for temporary event notices, and that events such as raves, which have drug implications, could cause serious problems in some instances. In the past, raves and drugs have been very closely associated, and the police in rural areas have had real problems clamping down on so-called rave events. In later clauses we shall come on to police involvement.

The amendment simply asks why the minimum age should be 18. It is the age of voting, but, to use the Minister's phrase, we are trying to strike a balance between allowing an event to take place and the potential commotion or disorder that may ensue from it, which would be of concern to the police and residents.

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)

By imposing in a Bill a limit that is not the normal age of majority of 18 years, would we not infringe the human rights of those between the ages of 18 and 25, who would assert that they have the right to give such notices? That would cause trouble for the legislation.

I also raise the question of student unions, which typically comprise members between the ages of 18 and 25. They would always have to find someone else to apply for their temporary events. I understand the argument of the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire. He raises some interesting points, but we cannot write into primary legislation what appears to be a discriminatory measure.

Mark Field (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)

I shall speak to my amendment No. 351. I appreciate that it applies to clause 118, but there are similar questions about the qualifying minimum age under clause 98.

I suggested a minimum age of 21, which partially gets round an issue raised by the hon. Member for North Devon. The more senior undergraduates and the sabbatical officers of student unions are likely to be 21 or above, so the amendment would not create an absolute bar to student events.

A debate on a qualifying minimum age is always very difficult, and I may not have thought through the human rights implications to which the hon. Gentleman referred. However, it is Liberal Democrat policy to reduce the voting age to 16. Is the age of licensees also to be reduced by a further two years from the suggested age of 18?

Serious responsibilities go with being a licensee. Should one be entitled to be a licensee for an event at which alcohol may be served on the very day that one is entitled by law to consume alcohol? My amendment would be a sensible compromise, in so far as it would be allowed within the confines of the human rights legislation. I acknowledge that that may be an insurmountable problem—no doubt the Minister will take advice on the matter—but it would make sense to specify an age above 18 in order to get some balance.

The rights that come with reaching the age of majority are accompanied by responsibilities. The responsibilities of a licensee are recognised: the fact that we have licensing legislation in the first place recognises that people who want to run licensed premises have particular responsibilities. It is therefore sensible to consider raising the age set out in the clause to 21, which is my preference, or, as my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire proposed, to 25. I should be interested to have some feedback from the Minister on why the age of 18 was chosen, and whether specific thought was given to the qualifying age, as distinct from the age of majority.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I endorse the points made by my hon. Friends. Many student unions have stewards or other full-time staff who could be the licensees.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

Not all of them.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

Not all, but the more successful the Minister's legislation is, the greater the profits that student unions will doubtless make from their licensable activities and the more easily they will be able to afford stewards. Indeed, I always recommend stewards as a way of making sure that people make more profit. Amendments Nos. 414 and 415, which may be built on a false premise, would make it unlawful to give a personal licence to someone under

the age of 18, which is not provided for elsewhere in the Bill.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I have an admission to make, which goes back more than 30 years. As I was reading the clause in the early hours of this morning, it suddenly occurred to me that at 18 I was a much more sensible individual than I was at 21, and at 21 I was more sensible than I was at 25. By the age of 21, I had spent three years at Hornsey college of art.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

Where does that leave the hon. Gentleman now?

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I was about to come to that. I know many 50-year-olds who would struggle to muster the common sense of some 18-year-olds whom I know. Frankly, there is no iron rule that people become more responsible and achieve greater wisdom as they get older. Indeed, I left home—the wonderful environment in Aberdare—at 18 and suddenly found myself in the middle of the most sinful city on earth in 1965. I was a very different creature by 1968—thank God.

The hon. Member for North Devon rightly raised the issue of human rights. People can drive a tank at 18, and there are 18-year-olds out in Iraq who are in extreme danger and face life-or-death situations. We allow people to become nurses, in whose hands we put our lives, at 18. No one is casting a slur on 18-year-olds, but we must be more sensible.

Mark Field (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)

It strikes me, and probably most members of the Committee and people in the country, that there was particular unease when 18-year-old soldiers, as opposed to those who were slightly older, were killed in Iraq. There is particular unease when such young soldiers, who are less than half the age of everyone in the Room, die. On that basis, the Minister's point is slightly misleading. Although those extremely youthful combatants may have been willing to fight for their country, they none the less carried high levels of responsibility. I understand that there are rules in the armed forces about the precise age at which junior trainees are entitled to go into battle.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I do not know the particular rules in the armed forces. I know from my constituents, however, that 18-year-old soldiers may be young but they are professionally trained and show high levels of skill in many of the functions that they carry out in the Army, and the same goes for nurses, firefighters and many other people who are in positions of great responsibility. As I tried to argue, there is no golden rule that someone aged 21 is more responsible than someone who is 18.

I know that there is a cosy assumption that we somehow become wiser and more responsible as we get older but, with respect, I do not think that all of us sitting in the Room are good examples of that. Many people would think that we should be locked up somewhere, if they looked at the lifestyles that most of us have to lead. We must be generous and acknowledge that 18-year-olds are capable of doing great things.

We are talking about not only pubs and nightclubs, but a range of licensed premises, including cinemas. The cinema industry was keen that the age of its managers could be brought down to 18. As was pointed out to me yesterday when I had a meeting with the Cinema Exhibitors Association, there is nowadays an infectious enthusiasm among young people for cinema—as opposed to DVDs or videos—which the industry wants to capture in the way that it runs its cinemas. It wishes to be able to link up with great numbers of young people and to have a feel for what they want out of the experience of going to a cinema, which will be a licensed premises. It was pointed out to me that the age of 25 is sometimes too old if one wants to capture that essence.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

I support my hon. Friend's point. I would have needed temporary event notices for some events that I promoted when I was under 21, which were important not only in the development of my short theatrical career, but in the careers of others who have gone on to much more important things. My hon. Friend speaks about cinema: one of the first events that I promoted in a temporary venue was directed by Sam Mendes, who has gone on to be an important figure in our film industry, as well as in our theatre.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

Beat that.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I am glad about that. However, I am surprised that, as my hon. Friend worked with Sam Mendes, he is a Member of Parliament: he has the looks of a good villain.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

I was always typecast as the villain.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I am sure that Sam Mendes will return at some stage and make good use of that.

A 17-year-old can get behind the wheel of a car—a powerful car if their mother or father can afford to pay the insurance on it—so we are trusting young people with huge responsibilities. I oppose the amendments, and I hope that they will be withdrawn.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I am sorry, but the Minister did not deal with the amendments to clause 118.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I shall try to find my notes.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

May I attempt to keep things moving?

A thought occurred to me when the Minister was speaking. I take on board the powerful arguments for retaining the age of 18. However, a question mark hangs over temporary event notices involving young people, for events that may or may not be a rave and may or may not involve drugs. Individuals at 18 probably do not have a criminal record—or if they have one, it is probably fairly obscure—as young people with a criminal background are let off pretty much everything until they get fairly long in the tooth.

The police might get involved, and they might have to do a quick investigation on the temporary event notice. They argue that they do not have enough time to do that, which we will discuss later. If people who are older have a criminal background because they have been involved in nefarious activities, that will become more apparent and make it easier for the

police to investigate whether those are appropriate people to hold the kind of event to which I referred.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. He is always most accommodating. As we have been going for some time now, I was getting confused and thought that we were talking about amendment No. 118, not 18-year-olds. I apologise.

Amendments Nos. 415 and 440 would change the Bill to the effect that a licensing authority may not grant a personal licence if it appears to the authority that the applicant has not attained the age of 18. Apparent age is not a criterion that we want to introduce into legislation. Age is a matter of fact, unfortunately, which is why it is a condition under the Bill. A licensing authority may require certain evidence from an applicant to be satisfied that the person has attained the age of 18, but its opinion about their age should not enter the equation.

Subsection (3) already provides the licensing authority with the ability to reject an application on the basis that it is not satisfied that the applicant has attained the age of 18. Under the Bill, a licensing authority must grant a personal licence if the applicant fulfils the following conditions: they are aged 18 or over; they possess a licensing qualification or is a person of a prescribed description; no personal licence held by them has been forfeited during the period of five years ending on the day the application was made; and they have not been convicted of any relevant offence or foreign offence. If it appears to the licensing authority that the applicant has not met the condition of having attained the age of 18, the application must be rejected.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I beg to move amendment No. 383, in

clause 98, page 55, line 28, at end insert

'except where the licensable activities involve folk music or folk dance performed in the vicinity of the premises in the open air,'.

This is an attempt to revisit some of the discussion under schedule 1 on certain forms of entertainment, in particular morris dancing, folk music and the like. Clause 98 seemed to provide an opportunity to slip in an exemption from the licensable activities referred to in the first line of the clause. The Minister has already made it clear that licensable activities include not just alcohol, but entertainment and late-night refreshment. I wondered whether we could exempt folk music and/or folk dance performed in the vicinity of the premises and in the open air from the details that need to be part of a statement of a temporary event notice. That might get round some of the difficulties that we are still being told about by those who are involved in such activities.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I shall tread carefully, given the adult and fascinating debates that I have had with representatives of the folk music industry. I have thought a great deal about the matter over the intervening period, and I always worry about the definition of folk music. Does some kid singing about the fact that he can't get no satisfaction in the late 20th century constitute a reflection on the quality of his life at a certain point in history? Is that any less valid than somebody who sings about canal boatmen, and the problems that they suffer because they cannot reach their sweethearts, in the 19th century? I always worry about such distinctions, not because I am doubtful of the validity and beauty of folk music—

It being twenty-five minutes past Eleven o'clock, The Chairman adjourned the Committee without Question put, pursuant to Standing Order.

Adjourned till this day at half-past Two o'clock.

Standing Committee D

Clause 98 - Temporary event notice

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you, Mr. Gale. You will be pleased to know that you have missed a series of adult discussions on the definition of folk music and so on. I was starting to wax lyrical, but you put me in my place during an aside when you said that we should not relive our youth this afternoon, so I shall not.

I was discussing what precisely folk music is and whether it is amplified or not. I believe that the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Moss) took care in his amendment to insist that it covers only non-amplified music, but perhaps he will tell me in a moment.

The question of what constitutes folk music or dance may not occupy everyone's waking moments, but I hope that I can assure the Committee that it is one to which my mind has often wandered since our proceedings started. To that I can add Morris dancers, wassailers and so forth. The matter is important to them and to all of us who care about the cultural heritage of this country.

I hope that it has become abundantly clear from our lengthy and detailed debates in this House and another place that we are absolutely committed to providing an environment in which music of all sorts can thrive and we have made changes to the Bill to reflect that. Indeed, the whole Bill is designed to provide many more opportunities for musicians and other entertainers to perform. I have spent much time considering various options, some of which have involved defining in legislation various types and genres of performance, including folk music. Let me say straightaway that we have yet to find an answer and I doubt that we ever will, but I know what the hon. Gentleman is aiming at in the amendment.

Everyone has an idea of what constitutes folk music or dance. Some people's image is of a small troupe of musicians performing on traditional non-amplified instruments, usually on a golden summer's evening with a pint of scrumpy on the village green. That may be so on some occasions and perhaps in dozens of villages in the constituency of the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey). No doubt he drinks

scrumpy in every one of them, which is not an easy task.

Many people classify Bob Dylan as a folk singer and I well remember the outrage among the folkier Bob Dylan fans when he appeared on stage with The Band playing amplified music. It caused outrage and almost riots, which showed that great passion can be generated and that music changes. The lyrics became no less relevant as folk lyrics or comments on contemporary society, but the form of music generated great controversy. Bob Dylan is even older than I am, but he can still fill Wembley arena several nights in succession. To be heard in such a place means that the music must often be very loud.

The great British folk band, Fairport Convention, has been holding wonderful festivals for several decades, which many thousands of people attend. If anyone is interested, this year's festival at Cropredy is taking place on 7, 8 and 9 August with tickets starting at £28 for early bookings.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

Without wishing to stop the Minister in full flow, I remind him that we are talking about temporary event notices. His Bill says that there can be a maximum of 500 people in attendance at such events. Perhaps that might help him.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

Luckily, it is only 500 people. If the hon. Gentleman's amendments had been accepted, it would have been 15,000.

Defining this sort of activity is fraught with difficulty and provides grounds by itself for rejecting amendment No. 383. Furthermore, there are many other genres of music and dance that some people consider to be sufficiently quiet or harmless to justify special treatment. Some forms of jazz spring to mind. That is another reason why we cannot accept the amendment, and I hope that in view of that explanation the hon. Gentleman will see fit to withdraw it.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I am grateful to the Minister for his response so far. I am even more grateful for the fact that he started his response only two minutes before the termination of this morning's proceedings, because it enabled me to find in my filing system the letters that I have received from the English Folk Dance and Song Society, the president of the Morris Federation and the Men of Wight Morris Dancers. However difficult we find it to define folk music, there is no doubt that morris dancing is folk dance. Martin Davis, the bagman of the Men of Wight Morris Dancers, fears that the Bill will prevent the use of smaller venues and points out,

''this Christmas alone, the Morris Dancers have donated £125 to the Mountbatten Hospice''

in my constituency. There is no doubt that the activity that they undertake is for profit. It is not an unprofitable activity. There is no doubt that it is a performance of dance, in relation to schedule 1(2). There is no doubt that it takes place in the presence of an audience and that its purpose, or one of its purposes, is entertaining that audience.

I very much hope that the Minister will think again about whether this activity has to be regulated. I welcome the amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire because it would exempt this activity. I should like to spend a little more time on the matter because, as I said, we appear to be regulating morris dancing in open spaces—not necessarily only in pub car parks or in the vicinity of the sale of alcohol. The president of the Morris Federation, John Bacon, is concerned about the Bill's implications and how it will affect his members. He says that he supports the intent of the Bill, but the problem is that the

''dance form and its music together with Mumming will all be illegal in public houses that do not have a licence''.

The Minister shakes his head. Perhaps he would like to tell me why I am wrong. If he intervenes and convinces me that I am wrong, I will shut up. If he cannot do so, I will keep going until he tells me why I am wrong.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for enabling me to short-circuit the debate. I have had lengthy meetings with representatives of all the large morris, folk song and dance groups, including wassailers, storytellers and mummers. I took them through the Bill and they were much happier at the end of it than they were when we began. They were worried that they would suddenly have to apply for licences for performances that take place in public on the side of roads and so on. Such activities are not licensable. They will not be affected.

The hon. Gentleman was right to refer to the problem of when such performances take place as advertised events inside licensed premises. The representatives were worried about that and thought that they would suddenly have to find a lot of money to pay the landlords. They said that they might perform in 16 or 20 different venues on one of their special days. I asked them if such events were like Cowes week, for example, which was well known and had taken place for many years with a lot of advanced notice. It was pointed out to me that that rarely happens, although there are days in the year when morris dancers are known to perform at certain places. It is often a spontaneous performance and one that happens in different places at different times. As such, they would not be required to have a licence.

The hon. Gentleman is worried about the possibility that the dancers would not be allowed to perform outside ancient pubs or places where they may have performed previously. My hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Martin Linton) has a famous pub in his constituency, which has a long history of performing arts. It is called The Latchmere and is in Battersea Park road. If a morris troupe performed outside The Latchmere, I think that the police and the highways authorities would have an enormous amount to say about it—it also happens to be on a busy road junction.

Clearly, there will be occasions when it is appropriate for a spontaneous dance or performance to take place, or a tale to be told. On other occasions, it will not be, because it is an event that will have to be

properly notified to the authorities as the pavements may become blocked or there may be traffic problems. We must maintain flexibility. I envisage that in the majority of cases licences will not be required, but that occasionally permission will have to be sought and the licensing authority will have to be informed, as will the police, when an event is likely to encroach on a public highway or pavement and become a serious obstruction.

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

Order. In case members of the Committee are in doubt, I have had to construe that the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner) had taken his seat and that the Minister was making a fresh speech, otherwise that was a long intervention. Do you wish to resume, Mr. Turner?

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

If I may, Mr. Gale. I noted with care some of the phrases that the Minister used and I hope that I did so correctly. He said that such events were not licensable on public roads.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I was careful to say that the onus will lie on the local authority. If it considers that a series of performances, including dance, that take place on the road could constitute a problem, I have no doubt that it will want to discuss such matters with the troupe or group to clarify the situation and ensure that such performances are conducted within the law.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I accept that. The Minister said that those involved in a spontaneous performance would not usually be required to obtain a licence. He said that there will be occasions when it is appropriate for a spontaneous dance and performance and other occasions when it will not be appropriate, and in the majority of cases licences will not be required. I take that to mean that, notwithstanding the provisions in the Bill, the local authority will have discretion as to whether it seeks an application from groups such as those that have been in contact with us. If the Minister is happy with that, I am happy with it, although it may or may not provide security for the morris dancers and others who have been in touch with us. It relies on the good sense of local authorities and, regrettably, that commodity is somewhat rare in some local authorities.

I realise that in many local authorities, good sense prevails 99 per cent. of the time. I am sure that it prevails 100 per cent. of the time in distinguished local authorities such as the one on which my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field) recently served. However, that is not always the case, as the hon. Member for North Devon perhaps knows, and as I certainly know. Local authorities can get a bit bureaucratic and say, ''Well, the Bill says that and it doesn't say anything about discretion.'' I have at last grasped what the Minister is trying to say. I am sorry that it has taken me until this stage in the Bill. He is saying that local authorities must exercise common sense.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I welcome you back to the Committee, Mr. Gale.

I listened with interest to what the Minister said. I am pleased that he met the people who have been lobbying us to explain the Bill's practical implications

for their activities. It is encouraging to hear that the majority of people were reassured and concluded that most of their activities would not require licences. Some activities would require entertainment licences, which presumably do not have to be applied for at present.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I am not sure whether I understood the hon. Gentleman correctly. He knows that at present the licensee of a licensed premises must apply to a local authority for an entertainment licence if he or she wants to put on a musical event that involves more than two musicians. It is not true to say that people do not have to apply for such licences at present; they most certainly do.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying that. I had not overlooked it, but the onus is on the pub landlord or the licensee who invites morris dancers on to his premises to make sure that he has the appropriate licence. The people who spoke to us were concerned about the implications for themselves, rather than for licence holders at establishments that they frequent.

Will the Minister clarify the point about morris dancers instigating activities at the weekend? He alluded to the fact that they could visit half a dozen or even a dozen different establishments during their activities on, say, a Sunday. Some of those activities might well be within the curtilage of various pubs, in which case the entertainment licence would hopefully be taken care of by the licence holder. However, many activities would be on the village green or outside a pub. Are we categorically stating that if such an event were not advertised and were spontaneous, in the sense that it took place because the morris dancers happened to be in the village and decided to do something in that location, they would not be transgressing the law if they did not seek a licence?

The Minister spoke about morris dancing outside a pub in Battersea. I should have thought that common sense would prevail in most situations, and I cannot envisage such people dancing in a place that would cause havoc at one of the busiest crossroads in the metropolis, let alone on busy roads in some of our villages. The Minister said that if morris dancers were going to impinge on the public highway or cause difficulties, they would ''give notice''—I wrote those words down—to the police and perhaps the licensing authority. What does he mean by giving notice? Would that be for a temporary event activity, or would it be a matter of common sense that, as they might impinge on the highway, they should let the local police and licensing authority know that something was about to happen?

It would be helpful to know exactly what the Minister meant by giving notice. We used that as an argument way back when we discussed public entertainment licences. Rather than having to apply for licences, if people simply gave notice to the local police that they were holding an event, in most cases that should sort out the problem of the numbers likely to attend, the premises and so on. I should like some clarification, if possible.

Can the Minister say that, having explained the Bill and its implications to various groups, in the main they are now satisfied that the requirements are not too onerous and expensive, that they can live with them and that they will not curtail their activities, which are an important part of rural life? To go back to something that I said this morning, if we are to make new law, let us make sure that it improves the situation, rather than it imposing more regulation and making life more difficult. That will lead fewer people to say that the new law is too much hassle and they cannot be bothered with it.

I speak sincerely about the rural community. I know more about it than about the urban community. A great deal goes on in the rural community—we will come to that in the next series of amendments—and if the requirements of the Bill are too heavy, they will impinge on the day-to-day activities of many people in the rural environment, to the detriment of our culture and our society.

I tabled the amendment as a probing amendment to ascertain whether there had been contact with those who will be affected by the Bill. Such contact has indeed taken place, and I am grateful to the Minister for talking to those people. I know that in any event he has an open-door policy for anyone who wants to talk to him, and that is a good thing. I also sought clarification of the implications for various groups in the event of a non-advertised situation.

I go back to a topic that I mentioned in our discussions of schedule 1—the festival in the small town of Whittlesey in my constituency. It is called the straw bear festival and takes place in January. About 30 different groups from all parts of the country come to the town for the festival. Because it takes over the town, I am sure that the appropriate measures are taken with the police. People not only march through the town, but dance spontaneously outside pubs and in pub car parks. In that scenario, as long as the police are happy that the festival is properly organised and the appropriate fees are paid for extra policing and traffic direction, will the Minister give me an assurance that none of the morris-dancing teams that stop in various locations would need an entertainment licence or a temporary event notice prior to the event? I ask about that because the event is advertised and many people attend it. The teams stop and spontaneously perform different pieces around the town. I should be pleased to hear the Minister's response.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I shall come to that. I am sure the Committee would want to know that it was this Government who ended the ban on dancing on Sunday, which had been in place for 200 years. So there is an upside, and we are not intending to crush culture in every respect.

Amendment No. 383 would not exempt folk music and dance from the requirement for an authorisation under the temporary event notice system. Instead, it would remove the requirement for the person giving the temporary event notice to provide information about the licensable activities to be carried on at the event in question, where those activities involve

''folk music or folk dance performed in the vicinity of the premises in the open air''.

The only benefit to be derived from the amendment would be a negligible reduction in the effort required of the person giving the notice. That must be measured against the potential for larger-scale activities that could give rise to concerns relating to the licensing objectives. The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire is right to point out that that would not always be the case, but he mentioned an example in his constituency. The amendment would deprive the police of the information necessary for them to judge the implications of an event for crime prevention.

The hon. Gentleman asked a number of specific questions. One of them was about morris dancers stopping off at locations that they may decide on as they go along. During my conversation with morris dancing groups, I was told that they drive around in their minibuses and when they see a good spot—it may be by a beautiful oak tree or where there are lots of people—they stop and dance. It would be extremely difficult, if not absurd, for them to have to seek some kind of permission to do that, and we are not saying that they should do so.

The onus will be on the premises user to ensure that he or she possesses the necessary authorisation for activities to be carried out. For example, that would apply to the festival in the village that the hon. Gentleman mentioned, the name of which I missed.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

Whittlesey.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

On the main evening of that festival, several thousand more people than usual may be in Whittlesey. Special permissions may have been sought for extensions, and events may be taking place at pubs and other places. It is important that the organisers of such events and the performers are well versed in what is required of them, that they are able to do those things well and that they have a good relationship with each other. As I tried to explain to the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner), common sense is required, and I am sure that there have been examples of festivals that have been blighted by the lack of it, but I am unsure whether we can legislate for that in every respect. Often, sheer bloody-mindedness can damage an event that may be enjoyed by 75 per cent. of the town.

When morris dancers decide to perform on a particular day, I am reliably informed by them that it is likely that they will alert the authorities to the vicinity where they will be, especially if their performance is likely to be a big event that draws lots of people. There is nothing to stop the local authority from licensing large stretches of public space such as streets, roads or greens so that entertainment can be performed there. During my conversation with the morris dancers, I discovered that many local authorities have done just that. There has never been a problem with that, and we do not envisage that any will arise in the future. Morris dancers who perform on roads may be providing regulated entertainment, but the expectation is that in many such cases the local authority will have obtained a premises licence, which will enable them to undertake those activities, and even to enjoy a drink.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I fear that the Minister is going back slightly towards his brief. He has been generous in expecting local authorities to exercise common sense, but now he is saying that he would expect the local authority to have obtained a premises licence. If a carnival is held in Ryde, is the local authority expected to obtain a premises licence for the route of the carnival—first, because there will be a marching band and, secondly, because the marching band will collect money and, therefore, be marching for profit?

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

The local authority will almost certainly have ensured that it was acting within the law in giving permission for the carnival to take place. That may have involved several different actions. The hon. Gentleman will have to find out from the Isle of Wight authority precisely what it does to accommodate the carnival.

Different demands are put on different areas. For example, Europe's biggest carnival, which takes place in Notting Hill, is an enormous event that involves many different actions by various authorities. The carnival that I go to every year is the Pewsey carnival in Wiltshire—a wonderful event. It is a much simpler business, but it is not easy to organise, either. For a start, it goes on for three days and sometimes even longer, but the local authorities are well used to it. As I have tried to explain to the Committee, we are not about to do anything to discourage local authorities from understanding the importance of such cultural events, not simply as an expression of cultural identity but because they are often economically important to the area.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I am grateful for the way in which the Minister is addressing the questions. He has been extremely helpful, not just to Opposition Members but to the many people who will read the Hansard report of our proceedings. He talked about the involvement of local authorities in small festivals. What legislation do they use to give permission? I do not see anything in the Bill. It is patently obvious that the local authority cannot license the highway for entertainment. Presumably, it can license only pieces of land that it owns, such as village greens. It seems extremely sensible to do that as the Minister explained, because it obviates the need for organisers to keep going back to the authority each time. I accept that, and I think that it is a very good point to get across.

However, with the festival that I mentioned earlier, I am not sure which law the local authority uses for giving permission for activities to take place. Is there simply a general agreement that everything is fine, the police are involved, charges are paid and so on? Is there a licence? If so, what kind? There is no mention of such a licence in the Bill. Is it simply a gentleman's agreement, by which the authority says, ''You've gone through the right procedures, you've informed us, and we know the scale of the problem and what we are dealing with,'' and, because there is a good relationship with the organiser, everything will get sorted out?

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I know that the hon. Gentleman knows that such permission is not part of the Bill.

Many laws must be examined and various permissions sought. For example, permission may be given to close entire streets to traffic for the Notting Hill carnival. I am trying at present to change the law slightly to allow film crews to use streets. Small changes to byelaws and codes of practice are often involved.

On the specific question, which the hon. Gentleman is right to raise, local authorities do not have to obtain premises licences for public spaces, but we would certainly encourage them to do so where there is any demand by groups of dancers, folk singers, or anyone else who wanted to use that area. We think that that would be a good way to encourage cultural expressions named in the amendment. Local authorities will have a set procedure for carnivals or other big events, to ensure that streets can be closed to traffic. For example, most of Cardiff city centre is blocked off on international days. That is done six or 10 times a year and it seems to work well, although I am not sure how it is done, or what permissions are sought.

I have met the morris dancers, wassailers, and so forth, and they seem sensible people who have a good, productive relationship with the local authorities in whose areas they perform. I am confident that that will continue.

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

Order. Before we continue, I must tell the Committee that I have deliberately allowed a wide-ranging debate because it is clear that there are many complex and interrelated issues here. It may therefore be helpful if I tell hon. Members that at the rate at which this debate is progressing, it is unlikely that there will be a stand part debate.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I am grateful to you, Mr. Gale, for your ruling. I am also grateful to the Minister for his patient responses to our questions; he has dealt with all the matters we have raised. If there are any outstanding issues that he has overlooked, I am sure that he will write to us. On the basis of his co-operation and excellent explanation, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I beg to move amendment No. 420, in

clause 98, page 55, line 38, after 'both,', insert—

'(ee) the name and address of the person having a controlling interest in the premises (''the owner''), if that person is not the premises user, along with a statement of the owner's agreement to the temporary event notice.'.

I echo my hon. Friend's remarks on the Minister's response to the previous debate.

The amendment is intended to fill a void that is, perhaps, more important for temporary event notices than for premises applications—the Minister will correct me if I am wrong. There is no requirement that the owner of the land on which the temporary event is to take place should even know, let alone assent to, the serving of the notice. That is not too awful a gap for a premises licence, because there is a period of consultation during which people may make objections and it is possible that the owner of the land might hear that somebody has sought a premises licence for his land. A temporary event notice, however, can be obtained at relatively short notice

and, although there is a period of consultation with the police, there is no period of public consultation.

It is conceivable that the local authority might not know the name and address of the landowner—indeed, the local authority might not need to inquire about it—so I propose that the name and address of the landowner should be included on the temporary event notice. One of the concerns that led to the legislation on raves, especially rural raves, was that such events were held on land without the assent and permission of the owner. I accept, however, that it would be a rather feeble rave that only had 499 people attending it. It was thought that the legislation on raves, which the Bill would replace, would enable the owner to take action more effectively, with the support of the police. However, if people decided to have an illegal party on land and wished to protect themselves, they could serve a temporary event notice. The police would be unable to take any action unless things were drawn to their attention, and only then if they felt that a crime were being committed. The landowner would know nothing about it until the drum kit arrived on the day in question. I hope that the Minister finds the amendment acceptable.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

The amendment looks sensible, but it does not have anything to do with licensing law.

Part 5 of the Bill provides for a system by which licensable activities can be carried forward under the authority of a temporary event notice as permitted temporary activities. That system allows individuals to use premises for licensable activities under certain circumstances without obtaining a premises licence or a club premises certificate. Clause 98 describes, among other things, the information that must be provided by a person giving a temporary event notice.

Amendment No. 420 would require a temporary event notice to include the name and address of the person with a controlling interest in the premises—referred to as ''the owner''—if it is different from the premises user, and a statement of the owner's agreement to the temporary event notice. The contractual arrangement between the owner of any premises and the user is not a matter for licensing law. Licensing law is primarily concerned with the appropriate authority being given, whether by statute or a licensing authority, for the particular activity set out in clause 1. If a premises user were trespassing on the property affected, other legal solutions would be available, and are used. It is not for the licensing regime to resolve such disputes. I must therefore resist the amendment, as it takes the Bill into areas with which it is not, and should not be, concerned.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

Can the Minister tell me whether the anti-rave legislation to which I referred earlier, and which I presume is being repealed by the Bill, contains a similar provision that requires the assent of the landowner?

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I am not aware that such a provision exists in law. As I said, there are ways in which action can be taken, but they involve laws that relate to the contractual arrangement that might exist between the user and the owner of the land.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I thank the Minister for that answer, but I am not convinced that in this particular circumstance there is not a good case for requiring the assent of the landowner. There are two reasons for that. First, including the assent of the landowner would benefit the achievement of the licensing objectives—all of them, not merely the anti-crime and disorder objective. Secondly, the Minister has not been able to assure me that the statutes he proposes to repeal do not contain such provision. He has not said that they do contain such provision, but he has not assured me that they do not.

I am sorry that the Minister feels that although this is a good amendment, it is the wrong one for the Bill. I will not press it, but it would be helpful to have a little more information. If I carry on talking, perhaps some information will strike the Minister. My concern relates to whether the existing rave legislation offers landowners protection that the expedited procedure does not.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I am reliably informed that there is no requirement for the landowner's assent in current law.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I beg to move amendment No. 213, in

clause 98, page 56, line 9, at end insert—

'(9) Where it is proposed to use premises which are licensed for entertainment in accordance with paragraph 2(1) of Schedule 1 for the sale of alcohol at a function held by an organisation or branch in connection with the organisation's activities during a period not exceeding 24 hours an individual who is an officer of the relevant organisation may give a temporary event notice to the relevant licensing authority.

(10) In subsection (9) ''organisation'' means any society, club, institution, association of persons or organisation not carried on for purposes of private gain.'.

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment No. 219A, in

clause 105, page 59, line 23, leave out 'or (4)' and insert

', (4), (4A), (4B) or (5A)'.

Amendment No. 344, in

clause 105, page 59, line 28, leave out '50' and insert '25'.

Amendment No. 382, in

clause 105, page 59, line 28, leave out '50' and insert 'ten'.

Amendment No. 326, in

clause 105, page 59, line 33, leave out 'five' and insert 'twelve'.

Amendment No. 214, in

clause 105, page 59, line 34, at end insert

', except where these notices are in accordance with section 98(9), when subsection (4A) shall apply.'.

Amendment No. 327, in

clause 105, page 59, line 35, leave out 'five' and insert 'twelve'.

Amendment No. 215, in

clause 105, page 59, line 40, at end insert

', except where these notices are in accordance with section 98(9), when subsection (4A) shall apply.'.

Amendment No. 217, in

clause 105, page 59, line 40, at end insert

'except where these notices are in accordance with subsection (5A).'.

Amendment No. 216, in

clause 105, page 59, line 40, at end insert—

'(4A) This subsection applies if at least twelve temporary event notices for the sale of alcohol have already been given in the licensing area in any period of twelve months in respect of functions held by the same organisation or branch in accordance with section 98(9).'.

Amendment No. 220, in

clause 105, page 59, line 40, at end insert—

'(4B) This subsection applies if the relevant premises user—

(a) holds a personal licence, and

(b) does not hold a Wine Producer's Licence issued under H.M. Customs and Excise Notice 162: Cider and Wine Production.'.

Amendment No. 218A, in

clause 105, page 59, line 42, at end insert—

'(5A) This subsection applies if the relevant premises are a village hall, parish hall, church hall, community centre or similar building for which a premises licence for public entertainment is held, in which case temporary event notices for the sale of alcohol within the hours specified by the premises licence may be granted on up to twenty four occasions per annum to the officers of bona fide voluntary organisations.'.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I seek your direction, Mr. Gale, in speaking to this long list of amendments. May I cover, say, three or four on the first attempt, and come back to speak to others later, or must I cover all the ground on all my amendments at once?

Roger Gale (Conservative, North Thanet)

The matter is straightforward. The amendments are grouped, and the hon. Gentleman may speak to them collectively or severally as he wishes, with the caveat that, as I told the Committee earlier, we are unlikely to have a clause stand part debate.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

Thank you for that clarification, Mr. Gale.

I shall speak first to amendment No. 213 and then to amendments Nos. 214 to 218A, which relate to clause 105. They are not exactly consequential amendments, but obviously they are related to amendment No. 213 and that is why they have been grouped together.

I shall set the scene by giving the current position with regard to what we might classify as temporary event notices. The Bill sets a limit of only five temporary event notices per premises per annum and that will have the effect on community buildings of replacing three flexible systems with just one provision, which is extremely limited, certainly in the eyes of many of those involved at community level. The Bill will replace, first, the Licensing (Occasional Permissions) Act 1983, which gives 12 events per voluntary organisation a year, secondly, the facility for publicans to obtain occasional licences to run bars at other premises—that is useful at wedding receptions, private parties and other social events—and, finally, the facility, mentioned by the hon. Member for South Dorset (Jim Knight), for an interval bar to be run under a theatre licence. Such theatre licences often come in handy, particularly when plays and shows are put on in community or village halls.

The Bill was to reduce the burden of regulation, but it will increase the burden for thousands of volunteers by forcing them to go down the route of applying for a premises licence for alcohol. That, of course, will have financial consequences. It has been put to me that a limit of five events a year will be financially disastrous, not only for community buildings—of course, they will lose booking income and already rely heavily on fundraising to cover their expenses—but for the wider voluntary sector and families on low incomes.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

If things are looking so disastrous for a community hall, what is to prevent it from taking out a premises licence, given that the costs would be very low and it would mean a lifetime licence for the building? Why would that be such a burden?

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

That is an obvious point, which I will cover.

Once the limit of five has been reached, where are the voluntary organisations to hold their fundraising and social events? In rural areas, a village hall is often the only community facility and if the events cannot take place, it will have a serious impact on local fundraising and community life. If there are not enough temporary event notices for all the needs of users, branches of national voluntary organisations such as the Red Cross and others that would use the facilities will lose out, as priority will obviously go to local organisations because of the limited availability.

The inability to host occasional private events would, in the opinion of some people, be the death knell for many of those halls. They are an important source of income that subsidises the hire charges for activities serving those on low incomes. I can think of many small town and village youth clubs that barely have two pounds to rub together. Many of the organisations attended by senior citizens also operate on extremely low budgets and do not have access to resources. That has a social impact on families on low incomes who cannot afford to go elsewhere, such as to a hotel or another hall, or provide free drink for family celebrations.

The provisions will affect most village halls and community centres. Action with Communities in Rural England—ACRE—provided me with some briefing and its national village halls survey showed that 34 per cent. of halls are used for amateur dramatics, 93 per cent. for private parties, 69 per cent. for wedding receptions, 64 per cent. for fundraising and social dances, 61 per cent. for fêtes or fairs and 40 per cent. for concerts.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

The hon. Gentleman knows from earlier debates that we have exempted halls of that sort from having to pay fees for entertainment activities apart from for selling alcohol. I hope that as he delivers his litany of approaching disasters he remembers that we will not charge fees for the events in village halls to which he referred. There will be a cost only when alcohol is being sold to the public.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I accept the Minister's direction. I am talking not about the fees, but about alcohol provision and sales at many of the functions held in community halls.

An example was given to me of a village called Kimpton in Hertfordshire. It has a large main hall, which is used for amateur dramatics and old-time music hall three times a year, local wedding receptions and private parties, fundraising and social events and by a range of voluntary organisations, including the women's institute, young farmers clubs, the gardening club and the cricket club. It also jointly runs events such as the local fête. It needed at least 14 temporary notices some years ago and probably needs more now.

The Rawson Institute at Bolney in Sussex hosts five occasional events per annum, but it is planning a major refurbishment after which it hopes to be able to host amateur dramatics and local weddings. The income that they need to finance that expansion is part of the hall's business plan. It is factoring into its cost analysis the fact that it will be an improved facility that will be used by many other people. Many of the functions that it will hold will require alcohol to be available.

As the Minister rightly pointed out, village halls and community centres could obtain premises licences or set up social clubs to sell alcohol. In my village in Northamptonshire—I have only just moved into it—we are doing just that. There have been some healthy Friday nights out in the spanking new village hall. The village does not have a pub, so everybody comes and it helps to boost the social framework of the village and improve its inclusiveness. I thought it was of great benefit as I joined a new community. Local licensees, however, have complained because they see it taking business away from them, so the magistrates have said that, because temporary licences have been applied for on a regular basis, the hall is operating outside the spirit of the law even if it is following the letter of the law. The function has now closed down and the village community is forming a club to get round that problem. That will involve all sorts of bureaucracy, form filling and costs, but we have decided to go down that road nevertheless; that may not be an option for many village communities. Also, many of these institutions are voluntary, they may not want the responsibility for, or liability of, setting up these things and some key leaders may be required in a community to pick up and run with the ball. However, such people may not present themselves. Why should they, when there is a pub in the next village that they can go to? It is not an obvious solution simply to say, ''Well, they can obtain a premises licence or set up a pub.''

Only 0.5 per cent. of the 8,900 village halls in England have chosen to obtain a justice's on-licence and a similar proportion have social clubs. A tiny minority of village halls have gone down that route and the Minister must ask himself why they have not chosen the more permanent facility. The answer is as I have described it. At present, the hirers of village halls take responsibility for fulfilling the licensing requirements and in most instances no alcohol is stored on the premises. That is what the volunteer trustees want. I have an example of trustees from a community centre in Bognor: they have dissuaded people from having a bar because they have come from the trade and they know that having a permanent

bar with alcohol stored on the premises invites regular break-ins.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

The hon. Gentleman mentioned a village in Hertfordshire: I think that it was Kimpton. He said that, in the past, it had 12 such events a year. I have worked out that under the present system that would cost the village £120. If it gets a premises licence, that will cost it £100, and it will have to pay £50 a year as an inspection charge to the local authority: that amounts to £150. At present, those 12 events depend upon it being able to persuade a local holder of a licence—who could be the pub owner from the next village or wherever about whom the hon. Gentleman was talking—to come along and take part in them. It does not have to keep alcohol on the premises. It does not have to do anything: it could have exactly the same arrangement, with the security of knowing that the landlord of that local pub could come along on 50 occasions a year and allow it to hold the sorts of event that he has been talking about on that premises.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I do not dispute that, but the feedback that I am getting is that it will not be easy to find those personal licence holders. Why should the landlord of the local pub give up his time?

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

That is illogical. At present, if such an event is going to take place, the landlord of the local pub has to be got hold of anyway so that he can provide a bar.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I thought that I had covered that by saying that in many instances hirers of the village hall will bring in the outside bar with the licence holder to conduct it. That is not a problem, as that takes place anyway. We are talking about those voluntary functions and organisations that do not go down that road.

I will continue as quickly as possible, after which the Minister can shoot me down as he sees fit. There is a feeling that personal licence holders who are willing to take on the training and responsibility—there are criminal penalties attached to taking on the role—will not come forward in great numbers. The alternative of a social club, which I mentioned in passing, has the disadvantage of not enabling alcohol sales at events at which those attending are not members. We have discussed that during the debate on the clause on clubs. That has also led to situations in which the clubs' needs have taken precedence over the charitable users and those are not, in their opinion, the correct solutions.

Another problem is that a designated premises supervisor would have to be found. That might work for groups such as the WI, but volunteer groups might not be happy to leave young farmers or wedding guests on their own while they are absent. The cost of an employee with a personal licence would need to be recovered by making sufficient sales, and the trustees would still have the additional financial and administrative burdens of employing staff, undertaking financial and stock control, and so

forth. A local publican might, as the Minister said, be willing to act as the designated premises supervisor, but local organisations might lose some fundraising income. Indeed, many villages have lost their pub and, as is the case in my village, that option is not available.

Police and local authorities want to be able to locate the person in charge at the premises—we have already discussed that—but a designated premises supervisor who is a volunteer or publican is less likely to be present than the hirer who made the application under the temporary event notice.

The amendments refer to voluntary organisations; the word ''organisation''

''means any society, club, institution, association of persons or organisation not carried on for purposes of private gain.''

Amendment No. 213 states that where there is a licence for

''entertainment in accordance with paragraph 2(1) of Schedule 1 for the sale of alcohol at a function held by an organisation . . . in connection with the organisation's activities during a period not exceeding 24 hours an individual who is an officer of the relevant organisation may give a temporary event notice to the relevant licensing authority.''

That is linked with amendment No. 218A, which would add a subsection to clause 105, which itself deals with counter notices that must be issued if certain permitted limits are exceeded. The amendment would give a kind of exemption to village, parish and church halls, community centres and similar buildings

''for which a premises licence for public entertainment is held, in which case temporary event notices for the sale of alcohol within the hours specified by the premises licence may be granted on up to twenty four occasions per annum to the officers of bona fide voluntary organisations.''

That would raise the present number of occasions from five to 24 per year, but specifically for the voluntary organisations and certain kinds of halls. The amendment seeks to give a little more leeway and flexibility for the daily activities in our village and community halls, because people involved can see problems arising from the Bill.

I understand that a deputation from ACRE has met the Minister for Rural Affairs and Urban Quality of Life at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, who was apparently sympathetic to them. However, little has happened as a result of that meeting.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

May I assure the hon. Gentleman that much happened as a consequence of that meeting? My right hon. Friend the Minister for Rural Affairs and Urban Quality of Life has not ceased to plague me about the issue ever since he met that organisation.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

I am pleased that the Minister has been plagued, but disappointed that he has not yielded to the arguments, because if the Minister for Rural Affairs can see that there are potential problems for the rural community, I should have thought that that was something that the Minister in his current capacity ought to take on board. We are attempting to find a way that will lead to greater flexibility. In the main, we are dealing with responsible people who volunteer, run organisations at the heart of village life, and keep the community together.

There are rarely serious problems with any of the events that we are talking about in rural communities. All that is being requested is a little more leeway. Other amendments would increase the number of temporary event notices from five to 12. I support the argument that 12 is not enough, given that the halls are used on a regular basis by a host of different groups in villages and small towns. This group of amendments attempts to arrive at a number that is still within the remit and the context of temporary event notices, rather than licences.

The amendments would allow sufficient leeway for a village community to put on up to 24 events a year involving a bar—that is the point. That would cover most of the requirements envisaged by a body that represents councils in rural England, particularly smaller parish councils and their communities. Their argument is strong and I commend the amendments to the Committee.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

I shall speak to amendments Nos. 326 and 327. The temporary event notices are an important aspect of the Bill. The Government, rightly, describe them as light-touch regulation. Many people have contacted members of the Committee to express their concerns about premises licensing and the bureaucracy around it. It is difficult to find the right balance with temporary event notices. This morning we discussed the exceptionally generous capacity limit of 500. We talked about the 72-hour limit and the 24-hour gap that there must be between events. I have promoted all manner of events in all manner of strange places, and built venues from the floor upwards. I know all the various dangers that can be attached to even very temporary events.

Temporary event notices are a generous, light-touch measure. However, I worry that five is not enough. I agree with much of what has just been said by the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire. I have also been contacted by ACRE, the organisation to which he referred, by other village hall committee representatives in my constituency and elsewhere in Dorset, and also by the regional representative of a theatre company that tours around rural venues, particularly in village halls, who had worries. They are all pleased and grateful that village halls will be exempt from paying a fee and that has satisfied many of their concerns. It will be standard practice for village halls and other community venues to acquire a premises licence, given that they do not have to pay for it. The issue is what is to be specified under the operating schedule, and in particular whether it will specify the serving of alcohol.

Village halls are a crucial part of the rural infrastructure. I am pleased to say that tomorrow I shall be opening a village hall in Weston on Portland that has been refurbished, thanks to lottery money that has come through the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. I am sure that the residents of Weston are pleased about that.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

It is a Tory measure.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

It is amusing to hear the hon. Gentleman say that it is a Tory measure when

money is given out; obviously, it is a Government measure if things go wrong. That is a strange irony, is it not?

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)

The hon. Gentleman said that the lottery money came from a Department. Can he clarify what he means by that?

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

The lottery is the responsibility of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, which oversees its operation. Given that Opposition Members are always willing to criticise the Government for their use of lottery money if things go wrong, it is incumbent on us to celebrate when things go right. I saw a Minister from the Department the other day in order to argue for the use of lottery money for the Weymouth and Portland Sailing Academy, but I shall not carry on talking about that, as it is fairly wide of the debate.

Most village halls and community venues will acquire the premises licence but will not specify alcohol, because in most cases there will be no volunteer who wants to go through the training process and have the burden of responsibility, however it may be viewed, of being the premises supervisor. That would mean that they were responsible in law for any problems associated with the selling of alcohol in that venue.

Many people have expressed their concern about the limit of five events, given that premises can currently get 12 temporary permissions. It should be borne in mind that, as has been said, premises can also use the Theatres Act 1968 to serve interval drinks during some other events, so the total would be 12 events plus the use of the 1968 Act. The Bill proposes allowing five temporary event notices, lasting for a maximum of three days. In effect, it could be argued that the Bill is offering 15 days, as opposed to 12 plus the use of the 1968 Act. The two systems might therefore be regarded as being roughly equivalent. However, I should like the grouping of them together in three-day lumps to be unpicked, or the number of temporary event notices to be increased from five to 12.

My amendment probes the Government on whether they would go that far; whether they would say that there could be 12 lumps of three days; or whether we could consider putting together an amendment on Report that tries to find flexibility for the 15 days that are being offered, so that we can also get round some of the problems involving the 24-hour gap discussed this morning. There may be occasions on which premises could use the 15 days in lumps of four to get around that problem.

Such flexibility would solve many of the problems. Then it might be appropriate for the touring stage manager or producer of a touring theatre company, such as the one I met, to be the person named on the licence. The process might become part of the business of being the producer or stage manager of a touring theatre. Such theatres could then put on up to 15 temporary events when on tour and serve interval drinks; it would become part of the whole deal. That may get round the theatres' problem.

I simply ask my hon. Friend to give an idea of how flexible we can be with the use of the 15 days, and to

say whether he is willing to go as far as giving the 12 72-hour notices that I suggest in my amendment.

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)

I support the hon. Member for South Dorset and his two amendments, which, of the 12 that we are considering, are the two that most merit support. He is right that five events in the course of a year is simply too few. I gather that amendments were tabled in another place to increase the figure of five to 30. That would be too many and the Government were right to resist such a proposal. As the Minister said this morning when we considered the restriction on the number of hours, we must reach a balance between the aspirations of those organising such events and the interests of the neighbours. If I were a neighbour, the idea that 30 such events were to take place in a year would be too much.

I urge the Minister to reflect on whether five events are too few. The hon. Member for South Dorset is about right with his figure of 12. I was tempted to table two similar amendments suggesting 10 temporary event notices, but 12 is near 10. Unfortunately, I am guilty of a cock-up—although I should not have said that; it is unparliamentary. A drafting error has been made in amendment No. 382, which would reduce the number of times that a publican can hold an event from 50 to 10. That was not my intention. I wish to put the record straight and say that I do not support amendment No. 382, although, unfortunately, it is in my name. None the less, we should consider increasing the number of temporary event notices from five, and 12 is a sensible figure.

The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire focused a great deal on village halls, as did the hon. Member for South Dorset. They were right to do so, because village halls are important. However, the provisions are relevant to other venues too. For example, people in country houses hold charitable events several times a year. They charge for admission and for glasses of wine. They raise money for charities, which is worth while. I should have thought that five events was a tight limit in such circumstances, although I would not suggest going further than 12. That is quite far enough.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

The hon. Gentleman has probably forgotten that we have exempted charity garden fêtes.

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)

I was not thinking about charity garden fêtes as such, but about indoor musical evenings and soirées.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I apologise. I misunderstood the hon. Gentleman. I should have said that I meant only entertainment events.

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)

I am envisaging fundraising events where alcohol might be sold and fees are charged for the entertainment. The event is put on for profit, even if the profit goes to charity.

Jim Knight (Labour, South Dorset)

The Dorset Summer Music Society, courtesy of Lady Digby at her house in Mintern, holds soirées and raises about £15,000 a year for charity.

That is exactly the kind of event that would benefit from the amendment.

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)

I know that some people hold different events at different times of year, the proceeds of which go to different charities in each case. It would be a pity if people were limited to as few as five such events.

Amendment No. 218A, tabled by the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire, covers a village hall that holds only an entertainment licence, not an alcohol licence, but which wants to call in that mythical publican from the local village to sell alcohol. The suggestion that that could happen 24 times a year is sound, but if the neighbour had a perspective, I should have thought it desirable that the overall licence should contain alcohol provisions, so that the community had the full ability to make representations when the premises licence was due to be granted.

As the hon. Member for South Dorset correctly says, that would bring in all the problems of designated premises supervisors. If a village hall has an alcohol licence but all sorts of groups are going to make use of the hall during the course of the year, there may be no one individual who wants to be the designated premises supervisor for all the different uses, over which he or she might have differing levels of control. There is a problem there—but perhaps the Minister is about to enlighten me as to how it might be solved.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

There would be no need for the designated premises supervisor to be on the premises on each of those occasions.

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)

I am grateful to the Minister for that response, because I was trying to work out how the system might operate. Can the Minister confirm that if a village or parish hall were to apply for a premises licence for both alcohol and entertainment, somebody such as the chairman of the hall committee, or the caretaker who lives in a house nearby and issues the key, could be the designated premises supervisor? If that is the case, when a local group wants to put on an event that entails the sale of alcohol, will it need a temporary event notice or will that activity be covered by the premises licence?

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

It is my understanding that it will be covered, and if the designated premises supervisor cannot be present on the premises when alcohol is being sold, it is their responsibility to have someone nominated and named who will be responsible for that occasion; that will often be the person who applied for the use of the hall—the secretary of the chrysanthemum association, let us say.

Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon)

I am grateful to the Minister for that explanation, as it sounds sensible to me. Presumably that is the basis of the reply that he has been giving to his colleague the Minister for Rural Affairs and Urban Quality of Life concerning representations from concerned organisations, because what he has just outlined should be a workable solution. Amendment No. 218A might therefore be unnecessary, but I will leave the hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire to make his own decision about that.

In conclusion, I simply urge the Minister, in the same spirit of reasonableness that he showed in this morning's sitting over the 72-hour limit, to reconsider the limit of five occasions per year. I do not want the number to be dramatically increased, but there is a strong argument for a modest increase.

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

I want to raise some concerns that have been expressed to me about the number of temporary event notices that can be applied for for a particular set of premises.

I shall return to the correspondence that I received from the regional branch of CAMRA. Its secretary, Pat O'Neill, is clearly a pillar of the local community; it appears that he runs a series of events for different people. His concern is that a limit of five events per year for a set of premises could restrict some of the events that he runs on behalf of charities and other groups, and he cites events such as a jazz and real ale evening that he organised for the mayor of Eastleigh.

I do not think that Mr. O'Neill is as fully conversant with the workings of the Theatres Act as the hon. Member for South Dorset, because he was concerned that the real ale bars that he puts on to accompany occasional performances of the local theatre club might be ruled out. I am unsure whether theatre clubs fall within the Theatres Act, but I might discuss that with the hon. Member for South Dorset later, so that I can shed some more light on the matter for Mr. O'Neill.

Schools are the other group concerned about the limit on the number of temporary event notices that can be issued. Over the past few days I have been talking to local headmasters. A number of the schools in my constituency put on more than 12 fundraising concerts a year, and they are concerned that if they need to apply for temporary event notices for those concerts, their activities might be restricted. They are licensable activities because they are intended to raise money—to make a profit—and therefore they would require a temporary event notice.

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

I remind the hon. Gentleman that an occasion becomes licensable when anybody from the general public can pay to come to the event. That is different from an occasion that parents and relatives attend to see their loved ones performing a play inside a school.

Mark Hoban (Conservative, Fareham)

Indeed. I am grateful to the Minister for reminding me of the discussion we had earlier. However, my point still applies in many instances. I have certainly attended fundraising events at local schools to which people from the rest of the constituency were invited. It was not restricted to parents or friends; the general public were there. Putting on performances to support local charities is good for schools that are trying to develop their musical resources and the children's musical skills, and enables them to mesh with the local community.

It is not just groups such as CAMRA or village halls that are concerned about the number of events that can be run, but schools and other community organisations that make their premises available to other groups to raise funds on their behalf. I strongly argue that we therefore need to lift the limit from five;

in fact, I support the amendment that suggests a limit of 12. It would be useful to learn from the people who promote events in such venues what limit would be sensible and would not cause undue nuisance to neighbours.

David Crausby (Labour, Bolton North East)

I support the intentions of my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset, not just because they are in the interests of village halls but because they are in the interests of members clubs. Members clubs are the equivalent of village halls in towns and cities, and they often hold small events. They currently enjoy an allowance of 12 events, under what is widely known as the Little Ship rule, because the Little Ship club went to court in defence of such events. The rule is that clubs can hold 12 events. They can get round the rule by using a member to sponsor events outside the club, but that is not always appropriate. The Committee of Registered Clubs Associations, Labour clubs, the British Legion and—I am told—Conservative clubs are in favour of maintaining the status quo figure of 12 that they enjoy at present.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I am beginning to think that I should have mentioned earlier that I am a vice-president of the Association of Conservative Clubs. [Hon. Members: ''Now he tells us.''] I apologise for not mentioning that earlier—but I have no financial interests in that organisation.

Malcolm Moss (Conservative, North East Cambridgeshire)

Why tell us now?

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I am just too honest.

I should like to pursue a number of issues—I am taking advantage of your remark that this debate might take the place of a stand part debate, Mr. Gale. First, I thank the Minister for the research that was undertaken on his behalf into the future of the cricket match on Bramble bank. I am pleased to hear that cricket matches taking place below the high tide mark are now exempt from regulation under the Bill—

Kim Howells (Labour, Pontypridd)

We have not checked that.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

But they are exempt now.

One of the things that we have discovered in examining temporary event notices is that events such as Cowes week, Henley, Wimbledon and so on, which used to be part of a progression of events around the country, have outgrown their origins and have been taken over to some extent by specialists, who have extended their period of operation. Whereas previously one would progress gently from Henley to Wimbledon to Cowes to the glorious 12th—not necessarily in that order—nowadays, with the exception of the latter, there are no time limits on the activities that used to be undertaken within a limited period.

I welcome the Minister's emphasis on the use of premises licenses and variations on those. He will be pleased to hear that I have now discovered the clause that deals with variations—and what is more I have read it, or at least some of it. I could now tell Mr. Troup, of whom we spoke this morning, that running many events during Cowes week, and in the weeks and months around that time, should not be too much of a

burden for him. However, I do not want to go too far down that line, because that is for the Minister to say.

Clauses 34(5) and 18(5) deal with the time limits on applications for varying premises licences. The Minister has been helpful in allowing me time to find the relevant clauses. Will the regulations made under clause 18 specify the same time limits for variations as those made under provisions elsewhere, or will they be different? I should be satisfied if those specify different time limits, because that would enable people to deal with quick, rapid, or urgent variations to the basic premises licence. That would greatly reduce my criticism of the limit on the number of temporary event notices; it might also eliminate my criticism of the prevention of back-to-back notices.

We are looking for a fast-track but scrutinised process. I accept that a temporary event notice has drawbacks, because it is not open to public scrutiny. However, the premises licence process may be too long. If the Minister could offer us a fast-track but scrutinised process, that might satisfy some of the people who have made representations to me about the number of temporary event notices.

I am grateful for what the Minister said about folk dance and folk songs. For the record, the English Folk Dance and Song Society says that it not only represents morris dancing, but also

''clog, molly, longsword, rapper, Appalachian and other international styles'',

although how an English society can represent ''other international styles'' is not clear. It also has something called ''pace egging''. Perhaps the Minister will help me later by explaining what that means.

There is something attractive in what the hon. Member for South Dorset said about his amendments. Instead of setting an upper limit on the number of notices, whether that be five or 50, perhaps the Minister could consider setting an upper limit on the aggregate hours for which a notice may be applicable. If he did so, it would take care of the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire. In my experience, most village halls do not go in for four-day events. They go in for short events—in some cases, the shorter, the better—

Kevan Jones (Labour, North Durham)

Especially with morris dancing.

Andrew Turner (Conservative, Isle of Wight)

I want the hon. Gentleman's deprecatory remarks about morris dancing put on record.

Will the Minister consider aggregating events into a number of hours and perhaps having a number of licences as well?

The rest of the debate is in Hansard.