Animal Health Bill

Public Bill Committee, 22 November 2001.

Standing Committee E

Animal Health Bill

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

I should like to begin by saying what a pleasure it is to see you in the Chair, Mr. Illsley. I do not think that I have served under your chairmanship before in Committee; in fact, in a previous incarnation I used to sit, as you may recall, where you are now sitting. An even longer time ago, I worked here for many years, but since then there have been many changes in the House. Because of the supposedly wonderful modernisation programme, we now sit at a rather earlier hour than I would wish. Other Committee members may share that view. I am sure that, under your chairmanship, consideration of the Bill will proceed apace, and that we shall have good, full and open debate on this very important issue. It is very difficult to teach an old dog new tricks—I am referring to myself, Mr. Illsley, not you—so I hope that you will be relatively patient if some of us stumble, because we have not held for long our current responsibilities.

I do not want to speak at length on the timetable motion, given that, as a result of one recent change—this is my first appearance in Standing Committee since then—time is very tight. We are to consider a Bill that will give officials draconian powers that, in my view, will be challenged in the courts through human rights legislation. The Bill certainly impinges on the civil rights of landowners and those who own animals. As Second Reading showed, many hon. Members on both sides of the House are extremely concerned about the implications of enacting this legislation without amending it drastically.

I have no intention of revisiting the issues that were raised on Second Reading, but I should point out that the Government are introducing a measure that puts the cart before the horse. I suppose that their primary reason for introducing it is to enable immediate action, should there be a tail end to the present foot and mouth epidemic. The last outbreak was on 30 September, and we all pray that we shall reach the new year without a further case, and that such powers will prove unnecessary. However, I have to say that the draconian powers in the Bill are unnecessary and wrong. They should be challenged throughout its legislative passage, which is what we shall do.

The Bill grants powers to officials without granting any meaningful rights to landowners or animal owners. As the present foot and mouth epidemic has shown, there are many issues that we need to flush out in Committee: including the handling of the epidemic, of the contiguous cull and of the testing of animals, and the results that were considered negative but subsequently counted as part of the contiguous cull. For those who farm and for others who own livestock, these are very serious issues.

With all those points in mind, and given that the longer we speak on the timetable motion, the less time we shall have to debate these important matters, I simply want to point out that the time allocated to us is entirely unsuitable for a Bill of this importance. I hope that the Committee will be prepared, if necessary, to sit later on some days than we might otherwise have imagined. As someone who entered the House 18 years ago, I remember only too well debating certain Bills all night. Newer Members will not have experienced that, and perhaps they might think about doing so to enable us to cover the Bill properly. I merely throw that suggestion into the pot—I note that I am getting smiles all round, along with a few grimaces—but we shall see what progress we make. The programming is so tight that the Bill's major issues will receive inadequate debate, and the inability thoroughly to scrutinise legislation in Committee does not enhance the role of opposition or of Parliament.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

I, too, am pleased to serve for the first time in Committee under your chairmanship, Mr. Illsley.

In keeping with the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Mrs. Winterton), I am very concerned about the amount of time allocated to considering the Bill, not least because it is so draconian that it will almost certainly be challenged legally in the courts, should it receive Royal Assent.

On the front page of the Bill, the Secretary of State says that, in her view,

``the provisions of the Animal Health Bill are compatible with the''

European convention on human rights--a statement that itself requires substantial debate and consideration. Many organisations and individuals are already suggesting that the measures outlined in the Bill are likely to be subject to judicial challenge if the Minister does not significantly amend them.

I should put on the record that it is my understanding that, in the context of such legislation, Ministers should never knowingly take decisions that involve legal costs, and thereby incur expenditure to the public purse. I do not ask the Minister to disclose legal advice given to him about the legality of actions that he wishes to take under the Bill, but I hope that, as we debate individual clauses—our only option, given the time constraint—he will justify in legal terms the proposals contained in it.

In considering the Bill as a whole, its time constraints and the Secretary of State's statement on the European convention on human rights, we should recall that the following principles are relevant to the Human Rights Act 1998. Wherever possible, legislation must be read in a way that is compatible with the rights guaranteed under the convention. If it is not possible to read legislation in such a way, the Court has the power to declare the legislation incompatible and thus, in practice, force the Government to rethink.

I hope that we are not to spend the next few weeks considering a Bill that the courts will overturn lock, stock and barrel, but I suspect that that is inevitable. I hope that the Government will justify the legal basis for their proposals, and that you and your colleagues, Mr. Illsley, will grant sufficient time to debate these matters as we consider the Bill's clauses. Under the 1998 Act, public bodies, including courts as well as Ministries, must not act in a way that is incompatible with the convention.

Since the 1998 Act came onto the statute book, it has become ever more clear to us, to Government Departments and to the public at large, especially lawyers, that there have been some changes in emphasis. That was demonstrated earlier this year by a decision given by the House of Lords in its judicial capacity, in which it ruled that the scope for challenging an exercise of Executive power under the convention was significantly greater than had hitherto been the case under English law.

I want to flag up that we must consider this important Bill line by line during its passage through Committee and subsequent stages. In the view of most rationally-minded people, it is disproportionate and will almost certainly be challenged successfully in the courts as soon as it has received Royal Assent.

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

I, too, welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Illsley, and look forward to serving on the Committee under your chairmanship.

I confess that it is difficult to find words to express my opposition, and that of other Liberal Democrat Members, to many of the clauses in the Bill. Many of those arguments were rehearsed on Second Reading. We recognise that the Government must take action, given what they now know and following the absolute devastation of foot and mouth. However, the Bill is premature. Had measures such as import control and movement restrictions been taken beforehand, we could have looked at it with more sympathy.

The measures are draconian in their intent and extremely serious for many people, not only farmers, who live in rural areas. They are also unfair, unjust and unreasonable. The proposals on rights of appeal go much further than is necessary, and those on powers of entry bring a whole new meaning to the term ``forced labour''. The Government's intentions may be appropriate, but the methods by which they are trying to enact them are draconian. We must give the Bill very serious consideration, because it has great implications for many people. I hope that the programming resolution allows us sufficient time to do that.

Liberal Democrat Members feel that it is fundamentally wrong to mix up compensation and penalties. There are specific compensation scales, and there should be scales of penalties. To confuse the two is not helpful in terms of the possibility of being judged guilty until proved innocent. If there were evidence of large-scale abuse, there may have been some justification for the Bill, but only a small number of people are involved and even within that small group many could be defined as passive delinquents rather than bioterrorists. We need to get the proportionality of some of these measures right. I hope that we shall have sufficient time to debate the ways in which the Government want, properly, to introduce regulation in the light of the foot and mouth crisis.

Finally, we welcome the intentions behind the scrapie regulations, which form part of the aims of the new Department. However, I noticed that although scrapie was to be eradicated, BSE was only to be reduced. That is strange, given that we have lived with scrapie for a couple of hundred years and BSE was so devastating.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm for the record that his party's position is that in eradicating scrapie from the UK flock--we support that, of course--comparable measures should be clearly demonstrated in other countries that also have scrapie?

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

That is an interesting point. Scrapie is viewed in different ways in different countries with large sheep flocks. In New Zealand it has been eradicated, but other countries are prepared to live with it. There is a balance to be struck between the value of taking such a disease out of the flock and the potential loss of valuable gene pools and breeds of sheep which are important to the indigenous agriculture of each state.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

I want to be clear in my mind. We are part of the common agricultural policy and, to all intents and purposes, matters concerning agriculture are part of a single market. When the hon. Gentleman refers to the intention to eradicate scrapie, is he thinking only of the United Kingdom or does he consider the European Union as a single market for such purposes? Would he want parallel action to be taken by other EU member states?

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

Sometimes, it is important for a country to take the lead. I hope that we may take the lead in traceability and identification in advance of obtaining agreement throughout the EU. If we always wait for everyone to agree on everything, we will never move forward. If it is scientifically proven that the balance is in favour of getting rid of scrapie, perhaps we should recommend that for the whole of Europe. If the hon. Lady is saying that we should wait for a Europe-wide agreement on scrapie, I do not agree with her.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

What the hon. Gentleman is saying is that we shall make our own producers more uncompetitive. The problem with the CAP is that in this country we have a culture of implementing regulations and we add to those an almost gold-plated bottom. We place our producers at a competitive disadvantage. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that anything that is done must be done throughout the single market?

Eric Illsley (Labour, Barnsley Central)

Order. Before the hon. Gentleman responds, may I remind the Committee that we are debating the programme motion? A wide-ranging debate now on the principles of the Bill would cover issues that we shall come to later.

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

Thank you, Mr. Illsley.

The hon. Lady made an interesting point that we shall come to later in our proceedings. It is important that we consider all the regulations in a Europe-wide context. There may be a competitive advantage in eradicating disease.

Overall, we are not in favour of the provisions and we voted against them on Second Reading. The Minister's intentions may be correct, but the Bill contains fundamental flaws and seems to us and to many others to be premature.

Dame Cheryl Gillan (Conservative, Chesham and Amersham)

I welcome you belatedly, Mr. Illsley, to the Chair for what will be a short Committee stage and I concur with the comments of my hon. Friends and the hon. Member for South-East Cornwall (Mr. Breed) who speaks for the Liberal Democrats.

Already this morning, there has been a lively debate, which is unusual for this time of the morning. My first protest is that the Committee will start at five to nine on Thursday mornings. That is unhealthy timing and little consideration has been given to Members and their other duties--[Interruption.] That is correct--I am not a morning person.

I shall not be making many contributions to the proceedings of the Committee, as is traditional in my current role. However, I must speak on the programme motion to put on the record, as has been done many times during the previous and the present Labour Government, my total opposition to the principle of programming. The Bill has four parts, covering extremely complex issues with legal connotations that require detailed exploration. It is also obvious that the Bill is of current interest throughout the country. Solely because it covers a current and painful topic, it deserves full scrutiny.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton pointed out, the draconian measures have been universally challenged. That in itself means that the Bill requires full scrutiny. The rural and farming communities must be sure that this place is doing its job properly for. Frankly, six sittings will not do the job properly. We have already seen that in the selection of amendments—122 amendments and seven new clauses were tabled to the Bill. That is just the start. My colleagues and I have not yet examined a considerable part of the Bill. That the Bill demands more scrutiny than six sittings is evidenced by the fact that amendments have not come solely from Opposition Members. There is general dissatisfaction.

The Government have adopted an attitude of indecent haste to get the Bill to the Lords. They obviously want to get it out of this House before Christmas, and I feel that, once again, they have overplayed their hand. Programme motions are discredited. They reduce debate, and are now applied indiscriminately across all the legislation that we examine. The other day, I sat on a Committee where there was agreement between Opposition and Government, but the Bill was still programmed. That smacks of the heavy hand of a Government with no self-confidence, who are unwilling to debate the issues.

The major issues for the countryside demand more than six sittings. The Government have used their whip hand and abused their power by inflicting such a strict timetable on a major Bill of great importance.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Illsley. I appreciate your presence, and you have already demonstrated its importance for those people, some of whom have been complaining about inadequate time, who stray away from the straight and narrow of dealing with the issues.

I point out to some hon. Members who have spoken that the Bill deals with serious issues of BSE. It is good for the sheep industry—and supported by it—for consumers and for competitiveness. It deals with serious issues of disease control for an epidemic not yet over. I hope that we do not see further foot and mouth outbreaks, but we cannot yet say that the epidemic is over: the risks remain high.

The Bill deals with serious issues of biosecurity. Most farmers recognise that a minority have been involved in disease spread, putting the majority at risk, and they want action on that. It deals with offences that did not exist, such as the deliberate infection of animals, yet some hon. Members object to the measures.

The measures are generally welcomed by everyone in the livestock industry. I accept that issues about details remain, but I must make something clear about some of the words that have been used, such as ``draconian'', and about the powers of entry. There are no new powers of entry in the Bill. The powers of entry all relate to the Animal Health Act 1981. This Bill relates to the legal procedures in applying them. The powers were already there, and remain the same.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

The Minister has raised an important point. The difference now is that the powers will be able to be used when there is only the suspicion of disease. Under the 1981 Act, disease had to be diagnosed for them to be used.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

That is wrong. The disease did not have to be diagnosed. We will come to that in a moment. There had to be reason to suspect that the disease was there.

The hon. Lady mentions legal challenges. There has been much legal quibbling during the Bill's progress, which has been unhelpful for speed and for dealing with issues. I have made it clear all along that nothing in the Bill dictates future Government policy.

Nothing in the Bill precludes the recommendations of the independent inquiry. Nothing in the Bill precludes the use of a range of other measures. Whatever we do, we want a range of measures. If there is to be culling either as part of a policy or as a policy in itself, it must be done quickly, speedily and effectively. We shall deal with the other considerations in due course.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

I want to ensure that I have understood the Minister. In responding to my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton, his view appeared to be that existing measures in the 1981 Act allow Ministers to slaughter on suspicion. That is an existing power. Will he articulate the extra powers that he wants to take on top of that?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

The hon. Lady has asked me to go into a Second Reading debate. We shall deal with that issue as we scrutinise the Bill. I shall give her the details, but it is about interpretation of veterinary opinion. These amendments make the position clearer, and they will allow for action to be taken more quickly.

Dame Cheryl Gillan (Conservative, Chesham and Amersham)

I thank the Minister for giving way; he is being good humoured. How did he arrive at the figure of six sittings for the scrutiny of the Bill in Committee? Did he consider giving the Bill more sittings, and is it right that he is desperate to get the Bill out of the House of Commons before Christmas?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

This is a disease-control measure, and we still have a high risk of disease. The sooner we get this measure on to the statute book the better. We agreed six sittings with the Opposition Whips. Programming is a sensible, rational way to deal with legislation because it forces us to focus on the issue, and it cuts out erroneous time wasting. Those of us who have been Members for some years know that time wasting goes on.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

You are doing well today.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

I have done my share of time wasting. However, long before I entered Government I had concluded that it was not a productive way of doing things.

Dame Cheryl Gillan (Conservative, Chesham and Amersham)

After what the Minister has just said, I must ask him whether he is willing to revisit the programme motion and give us more time to scrutinise the Bill. He believes that there was an agreement on six sittings, but we should like more sittings. The Minister can therefore revisit the programme motion.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

There was a programming meeting on Monday, where the hon. Lady did not raise a single objection to the programming of the Bill.

Dame Cheryl Gillan (Conservative, Chesham and Amersham)

You were not there.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

I was there. It was over in one minute, which shows how many objections Opposition Members had.

I must say how much I appreciate my hon. Friends who are members of the Committee. I am glad that the Whips have chosen a brigade of guards from the parliamentary Labour party to support me; I appreciate my colleagues' expertise.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

I must put on record that I was shadow Leader of the House when the Government first introduced programming. At that time, the Government stressed how important it was for Programming Committees to be properly minuted, and we have just seen a classic example of why that is the proper procedure. Not all Members have the privilege of sitting on such Committees, and there can be disputes about what was and what was not discussed. It is unusual for such an important procedure not to be properly minuted or, if a vote is taken, for that not to be recorded in Hansard. It is improper, and it is characteristic of how the Government carry out their business.

Dame Cheryl Gillan (Conservative, Chesham and Amersham)

The Minister is taking it in good humour, and I appreciate that he must hold his position. However, it is worth putting on record that the Minister was not present at the Programming Committee.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

I was there. I was one minute late.

Dame Cheryl Gillan (Conservative, Chesham and Amersham)

It is remarkable that the Minister says that there is a great deal of room for negotiation on Programming Committees and Sub-Committees. I look forward to him revisiting the programme motion. The Government can say what they want and stick to their guns, which is exactly what they have done with the Bill. If the Minister is so willing to ensure that the legislation is absolutely right, he will accept—

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

My hon. Friend will recall that I was rather involved in the way in which programme motions were introduced into the House—a way that was against my better judgment. It was clearly stated by Minister after Minister, including the then Leader of the House, at the Dispatch Box—

Eric Illsley (Labour, Barnsley Central)

Order.

Question put and agreed to.

Eric Illsley (Labour, Barnsley Central)

Before I call the first amendment, I have an announcement that relates to page 35 of the amendment paper. Hon. Members will have noted that amendment No. 38 is listed as an amendment to clause 1, when it is an amendment to clause 2. That amendment will therefore be called as the last amendment to clause 2.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

On a point of order, Mr. Illsley. I signed amendment No. 54, but the Public Bill Office has left my name off it.

Eric Illsley (Labour, Barnsley Central)

I am sure that the Clerk will take note of that and make the necessary changes, if the amendment was signed in time. Clause 1 Foot-and-mouth disease

Clause 1 - Foot-and-mouth disease

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

I beg to move amendment No. 20, in page 1, leave out lines 9 and 10 and insert—

``(c) any animals the Minister has reasonable justification to believe should be slaughtered after consultation with an independent veterinary surgeon and the owners of the animals, and the provision of a notice containing a reasoned justification, with 48 hours notice of slaughter with a view to preventing the spread of foot-and-mouth disease.''

Eric Illsley (Labour, Barnsley Central)

With this it will be convenient to take amendment No. 8, in page 1, line 9, leave out ``thinks'' and insert—

``, after consultation with the animal owner, has reason to believe''.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

We have had a lively debate on the programme motion and will now get into the meat of the Bill. On reading in page 1 of clause 1,

``any animals the Minister thinks should be slaughtered with a view to preventing the spread of foot-and-mouth disease'',

the word ``thinks'' leaps from the page. One wonders what ``thinks'' precisely means because there has to be much more than just thinking by the Minister, district veterinary officer or any DEFRA official, before a decision is made to slaughter sheep, cattle or any other animal which may contract, or be in danger of contracting, foot and mouth disease. That is why my hon. Friends and I felt that we should try to include conditions that must be fulfilled before such a decision could be made.

We believe that there must be ``reasonable justification'' to believe that slaughter should take place and that that must follow consultation with an independent veterinary surgeon and the owners of the animal, who can both give much information about the local situation.

During the recent foot and mouth epidemic, a valid criticism made of the contiguous cull was the crazy way in which it was implemented, almost following a computer model, which took no cognisance of the topography of the land, how the animals were farmed and husbanded, or the likelihood of the disease breaking out on a farm adjacent to premises where it was alleged to have broken out. Here we reach the nub of the problems with legislating in this way. The Minister said that urgent action is being taken, but, in fact, it is being taken to close the stable door after the horse has bolted. Urgent action was not taken at the beginning to try to prevent the disease in the first place. We understand that the virus may have entered this country through illegal meat imports, although that is not yet known and I doubt that it ever will be in the absence of a full, independent public inquiry, which could call for people and papers and answer difficult questions.

In the meantime, the Government have not taken urgent action on preventing re-importation of the disease. There has been a lot of activity, but what it has actually led to heaven alone knows—probably just a few more learned committees talking among themselves about what they may or may not do.

We are an island nation surrounded by sea, which should be a tremendous barrier to the importation of disease, both animal and human. Yet at our airports and seaports, defences against such diseases are minimal. Since the beginning of the foot and mouth epidemic, the Government have taken no meaningful preventive action—certainly no urgent action. As soon as the disease manifested itself, action should have been taken immediately to stop animal movements. Those three days in February caused tremendous difficulties. Urgent decisions should also have been taken on how to approach the problem in general. I accept that it is more difficult to diagnose FMD in sheep than in cattle. As a Member of Parliament for a Cheshire constituency, I am very much au fait with what happened in 1967, but I recognise that that outbreak was perhaps less difficult to deal with, given that it affected cattle and not sheep.

Had the decision been taken immediately to slaughter animals that had definitely been in contact with foot and mouth, the disease would not have spread throughout the United Kingdom. As we all know, foot and mouth is not a new phenomenon; much research and veterinary advice is available on the subject. Whether the animal is alive or dead, the infectious virus emanates and spreads dramatically, so one needs to kill it and dispose of the carcase immediately.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

May I clarify one point? Veterinary and scientific evidence suggests that, once the animal is dead, the spread of the virus stops completely. As soon as cattle and, indeed, other animals die, the pH in the carcase rises, which effectively kills the virus. The animals are also sprayed with disinfectant as soon as they are killed. That is why the speed of the cull is important—dead animals do not spread disease.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

The Minister makes a valid point, but he has carefully avoided the important point about the initial delay in slaughtering animals. There were delays of several days because nobody could make up their mind and the arrangements were not in place. It was at that time, and because the Government failed to take urgent action, that the disease spread dramatically.

Bill Wiggin (Conservative, Leominster)

I was interested to hear the Minister's veterinary advice, because we all know that there is no way that foot and mouth was introduced to this country through a live animal. It was much more likely to have been introduced through infected meat, and the idea that meat is not infectious is highly implausible.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

That is an interesting observation—

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

I do not want those who read Hansard to be misled. The hon. Gentleman seems not to understand that the problem may not be meat but bone marrow. One reason why procedures are applied to legal imports is to ensure that they are de-boned. Illegal imports, on the other hand, could consist of uncooked meat or contain bone.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

The Minister will recall that the 1967 outbreak was caused by imported beef from Argentina, which did indeed contain bone. It created immense difficulties in dairy counties such as Cheshire and Staffordshire. It was an horrific outbreak, but it was handled by the then agriculture Minister, who later served in the House of Lords, with great expediency. Many lessons can be learned from the way in which that outbreak was handled compared with the handling of the present outbreak. There is no doubt that the dithering at the beginning of the current epidemic caused further spread of the disease.

It should also be said that the decisions made once the Secretary of State had fixed the policy left a lot to be desired. I refer in particular to the contiguous cull. I mentioned topography and said that, for dairy cattle that were far distant from a boundary where slaughter might have taken place merely on suspicion, it was a heavy-handed instrument to try to bring the disease to a halt. Many farmers and those with animal sanctuaries and pets that might have been culled challenged the Government's right to implement such a policy.

I speak from personal experience because the parish in which my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) and I have lived for 30 years had such a case. Two flocks of sheep were slaughtered, the one nearest our property on suspicion only. It took so long for the blood tests to be taken and the results to come back that the Ministry decided in the meantime that there should be a contiguous cull. I hasten to add that the farmers involved were not informed; they merely heard on the grapevine that there would be a contiguous cull. I reiterate that the sheep were to be slaughtered on suspicion, because there was no way of knowing at that stage whether they had the disease.

The problem was one of welfare. I am not criticising the veterinary surgeon involved, but many others who had come to this country from overseas and many UK vets had not only not seen the symptoms of foot and mouth, which would have been difficult, but appeared not to be aware of the symptoms of other diseases, particularly in sheep, so they decided that almost every case was a potential outbreak of the disease. Many farmers objected, rightly, to the draconian slaughter when it was ordered merely on suspicion of a local case. The results could not be obtained quickly because there were huge blockages in the system and decisions were not made.

In my parish, three farmers were going to be affected by the contiguous cull and were extremely concerned. They had built up their dairy herds over many years and were convinced that the cows were disease free. The Minister may say that they could not have known that, and it is true, but they were not aware of their legal rights at the time. The Ministry tried to bounce farmers into having a cull by almost blackmailing them and saying that if they had the contiguous cull, they would receive compensation, but if they did not agree, they would not receive compensation. The legal basis for that was extremely dodgy, which is perhaps why the Minister is introducing this measure.

There were many examples, including the three that I have given, of the farming community standing up to the contiguous cull policy, and in my parish none of the herds was affected. A veterinary inspection was carried out every day and the farmers were careful with biosecurity and other measures.

Bill Wiggin (Conservative, Leominster)

Does my hon. Friend not find it extraordinary that we are discussing the Bill before the inquiries have reported? Much of the sense and wisdom behind it may be justified, or it may not. It is extraordinary to shoot first and legislate later, before asking questions.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that valid point and I agree that it seems silly. The Government have set their face against a full public inquiry, despite every rural organisation believing that it is absolutely necessary. They have set up three in-house inquiries, only part of which will be held in public and that perhaps because of the pressure on the Government. It is extraordinary to legislate before seeing the results and recommendations of the three inquiries, on which some distinguished people are serving.

Huw Edwards (Labour, Monmouth)

Is it the view of the hon. Lady and her party that the Government should take no action to address the legal anomalies until such an inquiry has been undertaken, which might take two or three years?

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

First, there is no reason why any inquiry should take two or three years, so that is a red herring. Secondly, I do not believe that the Bill is the right mechanism--

Huw Edwards (Labour, Monmouth)

I asked the hon. Lady whether it was her view that no legislation should be introduced pending the outcome of the inquiry.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

That is an extraordinary question. Why should legislation be introduced now? The Government could have taken urgent action, and could do so even now, to prevent further infection coming into the country, but they have not acted. Perhaps that is the urgent action that they should take before introducing measures that will give more powers to DEFRA officials, whose biosecurity was often appalling. I shall give examples of that later.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

We hear Labour Back Benchers supporting the Bill on the grounds that there is a legal anomaly in existing legislation, which justifies the haste with which the Bill has been presented to the House. I was a MAFF Minister for three years and dealt with animal health. The powers of the 1981 Act are wide-ranging and have served animal health crises in the past. One example is the selective cull that was necessary after BSE. The powers of that Act allowed animals over 30 months to be culled whether or not there was definitive proof that the beasts carried infectivity, proof of maternal transmission, or scientific proof of horizontal transmission. The 1981 Act has been used an emergency power in addition to the general powers enshrined in it. The Government say that they need the Bill now to enhance the Minister's powers to cull, not because they cannot wait for a proper inquiry--they have the powers now--but as a smokescreen for their mismanagement of the crisis. They are taking powers but are not resolving the matters for which they are responsible.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

I really am most grateful to my hon. Friend, because no one could have explained the position more clearly or succinctly. Her comments back up the case that I made earlier. Her intervention was telling and I am most grateful to her. It is always good to hear from former Ministers who have held such responsibilities.

BSE was a new phenomenon--many scientists are researching the disease, but it burst on to the agricultural scene--whereas foot and mouth disease is totally different, because it has existed for a long time. There have been several outbreaks over hundreds of years and it has been very well researched. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her intervention.

To return to the amendment and the word ``thinks'', it is important that the Minister or his officials have ``reasonable justification''. Every person who farms or owns animals—for example, many people keep small herds of sheep in their orchard as a hobby—has rights that come before their being dictated to by a district veterinary officer or a DEFRA official. It is right and proper that an independent veterinary surgeon who knows the local topography and local circumstances should be involved in making informed decisions about what should happen.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

Will the hon. Lady define what she means by an independent vet?

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

I mean anyone from the private sector who has sufficient experience and knows the locality. One need define ``independent'' in no other way. Although there are excellent vets in the state veterinary sector, they were hard pushed to do even what they were required to do. People from local private practices know the farming community and its land and methods. If problems arise from their being accused of erring towards supporting their own clients, it would be easy to get independent veterinary advice from someone in another part of the county, who would still have the requisite basic knowledge.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

Does that definition include temporary veterinary inspectors who worked with the state veterinary service during the course of the outbreak, which meant that many of them were no longer necessarily independent in the true sense of the word?

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. However, not many independent vets worked with the state veterinary service.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

That is not true. All mine did.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

The hon. Gentleman's might have done, but others did not. In fact, the state veterinary service ignored and overlooked the offers of many recently retired veterinary surgeons with previous experience of foot and mouth to come back into service for the duration of the epidemic. One such vet who did so was Alan Richardson from Cumbria, who has written a paper about how the epidemic was handled in Cumbria compared with how it was handled in Cheshire in 1967, when he was a veterinary officer based in Macclesfield.

The hon. Gentleman might care to read that paper, because it lays down markers for the right way in which to handle an epidemic. Essentially, it should be based much more on decisions that are made locally rather than by regional veterinary officers. Page street ran the whole show, and bad decisions were taken because the fight against the epidemic was centrally controlled.

We have had a useful debate about the basis on which the Government seek to introduce a carte blanche policy of being able to slaughter any animals that they think should be slaughtered with a view to preventing foot and mouth disease. That should be changed completely by implementing the safeguards that I described.

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

The Minister has often said that speed is of the essence. We all found the way in which foot and mouth spread so quickly alarming. Speed in getting on top of it was essential, but reactions were rather slow at the beginning of the outbreak.

However, that must be balanced by two other considerations: first, protecting the rights of farmers; and, secondly, the overall economic cost, which has implications for taxpayers. We must not apportion matters so as to disadvantage the people who have the most to lose. Some devastated farming families will never recover, yet the Bill gives many of them the impression that they are being seen not as victims, but as villains who need to be harshly controlled. We must balance the need for speedy action to get on top of the problem with the proper rights of individuals.

During the months when we were trying to get ahead of the disease, the co-operation of the farming community was absolutely essential. People were asked, sometimes by rather nefarious means, to do many things to try to control it. They should be involved in the decision-making processes. The Bill gives the impression that they are being taken out of the equation, and that whatever the Minister and his officials and advisers think is right and proper should prevail, regardless of independent veterinary advice. I agree with the hon. Member for Stroud that getting such advice can be difficult, but it is important to get it and utilise it within a time frame that is helpful to the farmer and the local agricultural community.

I doubt whether the average farmer, faced with the possible devastation of his business through the culling of all his animals, will think it reasonable, or be totally co-operative, if the cull is happening only because the Minister thinks it should and he has been able to contribute nothing to the evaluation process. The amendment is a valuable attempt to address the fundamental dichotomy of involving those most affected in the decision-making process within a time frame that will allow control of the disease.

When we were going through the foot and mouth crisis, everyone, including people at MAFF--then DEFRA--MPs and farmers, was learning from the experience. I wonder whether farmers will be as compliant next time, having seen what happened to them, to their neighbours and to agriculture in general. The Bill may not help in that respect.

We have not got the balance right. The Minister balance what he thinks should happen with recognition of farmers' legitimate concerns about their involvement in the decision-making process. The Government should come forward with an arrangement that involves the farmers in that process, while ensuring that the time frame used achieves the objective of limiting the spread of disease.

I have examined many of these issues, but part of the fundamental problem with the Bill is that there has not been sufficient consultation to allow people to put their own experience into the pot so that we can begin to understand how to achieve the necessary balance. We all support the aim of preventing the spread of disease, but we have not got the balance right yet.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

Right at the beginning, we have seen the Minister's agenda of taking greater powers for himself. I am very concerned about whom he will consult when he uses the new powers. In the FMD crisis, his actions were not always based on veterinary advice, as he has claimed this morning. I shall discuss that at a more appropriate point, but I wish now to draw attention to a matter pertinent to the clause, which I raised on Second Reading.

When it suited the Prime Minister, rules were changed in response to public concern about Phoenix the calf. After that example of the Government's cavalier disregard of sensible veterinary advice to placate The Mirror readers, I have no confidence in a Minister who seems to be taking greater and greater powers to himself, who is not clear about the terms of reference under which those powers will be exercised and who finds the current legislation inadequate for his purposes.

The amendments would oblige the Minister to consult veterinarians and owners in exercising the powers that he wishes to take. I remind the Committee that the existing legislation, where clause 1 seeks to amend it, states:

``The Minister may, if he thinks fit, in any case cause to be slaughtered—

(a) any animals affected with foot-and-mouth disease, or suspected of being so affected; and

(b) any animals which are or have been in the same field, shed, or other place, or in the same herd or flock, or otherwise in contact with animals affected with foot-and-mouth disease, or which appear to the Minister to have been in any way exposed to the infection of foot-and-mouth disease.''

I should have thought that that gives the Minister pretty wide powers, but we are asked to consider adding to that list

``any animals the Minister thinks should be slaughtered with a view to preventing the spread of foot-and-mouth disease''

without consultation with owners or veterinarians being required by the Bill.

It is no good the Minister praying in aid flexibility, saying, ``I can't at this important stage in the Bill's scrutiny give an example of how that power would be used, or under what circumstances I would wish to use it, that is not already in the 1981 Act'', and then expecting the Committee to pass it nem con without further commitments from him.

It is still the case in this country—I say ``still'' deliberately—that Parliament legislates and courts then interpret. That will change, because we are fast moving towards a stage when judges legislate and interpret. However, we have not reached it yet, so let us hope that those of us sent here to scrutinise legislation are aware of our responsibilities, as I hope that the Minister is. Under the current system, what we say during our proceedings may be used in a later court case, if the court needs to determine Parliament's intention. Unless the Minister can state the Government's practical intentions in respect of the consultation with veterinarians and owners that the amendments propose, courts will be left to interpret the matter based not on what we say in the Committee, but on what judges deem to have been our intention.

I therefore seek from the Minister clarification about his intentions on consulting with veterinarians and owners. If he intends to reject the amendments, he must reassure us that his intentions in clause 1 are just, fair and proportionate. I shall need much convincing that the words before us are exactly that, unless the Minister is prepared to spell out his response to the amendments.

I remind the Minister—I know that he is familiar with the document—that a committee that has looked at the experience of foot and mouth, the Devon county council inquiry chaired by Professor Mercer, has published preliminary findings. As my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton pointed out in her opening remarks, the Bill could have included many of the recommendations already made by Professor Mercer and others to assist with some of the problems involved in getting on with a cull after identification of the disease.

Professor Mercer's inquiry said:

``We find that there should be an immediate ban on animal movements from Day One of any future outbreak.''

I agree with that. It would almost certainly have assisted the Minister with disease control, but the Bill does not refer to the idea.

Richard Bacon (Conservative, South Norfolk)

I do not have the report of the Devon foot and mouth inquiry in front of me, but I recall from my reading of it that paragraph 1.2, which I think is the first recommendation that Professor Mercer's committee made, relates to illegal imports. Does my hon. Friend agree that the absence of any reference to illegal imports in the Bill is an extraordinary omission?

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The committee's first recommendation states:

``We therefore find that methods of import control must be tightened to the highest international standards and if necessary be the subject of new legislation.''

If the Government felt a compelling need for emergency legislation, surely that should be the reason. I am sure that I am not speaking out of turn and that my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton agrees with me that they would then have had the full support of this side of the House. We could have had an important, really useful piece of legislation, dealing not just with the handling of the disease but with preventing it from getting into the country in the first place. Yet the Government have ignored that necessity. I shall not digress, Mr. Illsley, because I can see you giving me a certain look.

Hon. Members on both sides of the Committee have suggested independent veterinary advice and consultation with owners as an addition to the amendment. The Mercer inquiry's findings stated:

``The State Veterinary Service was greatly overstretched during the outbreak and its aftermath, the Inquiry was told, while the knowledge and experience of many local vets was not used. Retired vets, some with experience of previous outbreaks, volunteered their services but were rebuffed. In some cases the eventual hiring of vets from other countries, while very welcome at the time, created new problems arising from a lack of local knowledge and unfamiliarity with the language.''

I hope that I shall not break any of the new rules—which I have not studied in great detail—and be regarded as a racist, but that what I am about to say has parliamentary privilege, because I believe it to be a statement of fact. The training of veterinarians in some other countries does not follow the same pattern as in this country. In many countries, some of them European, veterinary training does not have the same approach to, for example, farm animals and animal husbandry of farm animals as it has to companion animals.

Somebody who is qualified as a vet on an international basis may not have the same in-depth knowledge and training in farm animal husbandry as vets trained in this country. If the Minister is to take advice from local vets, the point made by Professor Mercer's inquiry must be taken on board because it would help the Minister to bring the disease under control. The advice that Ministers desperately need from veterinarians when they are trying to manage such a crisis must come from people who are fully conversant with the disease, and who have the necessary experience and knowledge. This is another measure on which the Government could have taken action, because it would help if the crisis were to flare up again in the future.

I accept that the Government are seeking to put in place preparation for ``what if?'' I do not criticise that principle, but I criticise the fact that the ``what if?'' is not based on good scientific advice or the recommendations of inquiries. The Government have not seen fit to base the Bill, especially this clause, on the Mercer inquiry. They are pressing ahead with legislation that they have plucked out of the air. I want reassurance from the Minister that he will consider adding the amendments tabled in the names of my hon. Friends about advice and consultation with owners and veterinarians. Otherwise, I cannot see where the Minister could show accountability if this were ever challenged in the courts.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

I am delighted to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Illsley. With your strong constituency interest in agriculture, you will find not only the Bill but every element of animal anatomy fascinating.

The amendment is a nice try by the Opposition, but the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton ended up arguing the same point that I shall make, which concerns how one defines independence, and how people who work within the veterinary profession are able, through experience, to know exactly what an outbreak of foot and mouth looks like. Farm vets, who might not have experienced foot and mouth, found it difficult to identify in sheep. Temporary veterinary inspectors and younger members of the state veterinary service with whom I discussed this issue said that despite their training including as much guidance and insight as possible into what animal diseases look like their particular problem was that they had no experience of foot and mouth. It was only when foreign vets from strange parts of the world arrived that there were vets with direct experience of the disease, but that was too little, too late. With the benefit of hindsight, we can all look back at that.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. He recognises that if the Government had a contingency plan—we were assured that such a plan was in place—none of these matters had been considered. Bearing in mind that foot and mouth is a devastating disease, I should have thought that those in the state veterinary service could have been sent overseas in the intervening 30-odd years, when we did not have an outbreak, to learn a little about it. That shows a remarkable lack of preparedness.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

I do not deny the hon. Lady's point—one can always have better preparation. Government Members who struggled with foot and mouth will recognise that point, which is why some us asked to serve on this Committee with the aim of trying to learn from those experiences. We are discussing the Bill with the foot and mouth outbreak in mind, but we could talk about classical swine fever and other diseases. Budgets are always limited, and although it would help recruitment to the state veterinary service if we were to put on interviewing notes that we will be sending vets around the world to examine every strange disease, that is not practical.

My main point concerns practicability. It is a nice idea that we can define an independent vet, and I tried to tease out what an independent vet is in my exchange with the hon. Member for Congleton. When we have an outbreak on the scale that we have just experienced, many—incorrectly, I used to say that all private vets worked on the past outbreak—vets work for the state veterinary service. Because we had to have clean and dirty vets, many of them could not go onto different holdings. Many vets who had no particular experience of dealing with farm animals were employed because of the nature of the outbreak. In such an outbreak occurred in future, it would be difficult to find an independent vet because it is likely that somebody working as a temporary veterinary inspector would be going onto a holding for which they were also the vet. Such a person could give the work to colleagues in their practice, but it is difficult for vets within the same practice to argue against each other.

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the Bill may make such a situation more difficult? DEFRA inspectors could go onto a holding and insist that a vet works for them on pain of committing an offence if they do not do so.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

This is the crux of the matter. It depends on how one defines the words ``insistence'' and ``consultation''. My experience, which I hope to bring to the Committee, is that the people who were working for MAFF as it was then, DEFRA as it is now, did everything they could to persuade. Mistakes were made and people found it difficult to give the bad news that they thought a holding had foot and mouth. There are many emotional stories that those of us who were directly involved can dredge up.

We must accept that people use their best professional judgment, and we must empower those people. As much as we are talking about the people who objected to the cull, most farmers in my constituency accepted what had to happen. They wanted it done quickly; they wanted it done because they did not want the disease; they wanted it done because they did not want other people to go through what they were going through. The difficulty is one of balance. Legislation is a blunt instrument, and we are trying to do the best that we can. I shall look carefully at each amendment, but this amendment fails because it cannot define an independent vet.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

The hon. Gentleman used the word ``think''; the Bill contains the word ``thinks''. However, he rejects this moderate amendment, which tries to introduce a modicum of independent veterinary advice and consultation with the owners. He rejects that because he thinks, and the Government think, that they should be able walk in and slaughter because they think it is possible. The hon. Gentleman, who is a moderate man, represents an agricultural constituency and should make a great quantum leap to support this modest amendment.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

I am glad to hear that I am moderate because I have always tried to be moderate in everything I do. I shall try to be moderate in the time that I take defending my position. If those who would oppose having their animals taken or, let us remember, having their animals vaccinated—we are not necessarily discussing a culling strategy—do not want that to happen, they will get an independent vet who agrees with them. The problem is that time is always of the essence, and the best device to prevent that from happening is to delay it. There is a danger in talking about particular time periods, although the 24-48 hour argument does not apply here as we are talking about 48 hours. It was said that the Government should have acted more quickly on restrictions on animal movement, and reference was made to the period of three days. That is a nice idea with hindsight, but here we are talking about a period of 48 hours after the initial inquiry has begun. Such a delay could lead to further spread of the disease.

Several hon. Members rose—

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

Everyone is having a go at me now. That is the problem with trying to define such matters in legislation. In my view, 48 hours is too long.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

The hon. Gentleman touched on a possible vaccination policy and powers of entry to vaccinate. Before talking about that in detail, would it not be sensible to hear what the Government's policy on vaccination is? We are supposed to believe that the Bill is needed urgently, in case something happens tomorrow, but in any event we would not know what the vaccination policy is. The Government have had plenty of time to examine the issue and collate information, and I know that conferences are planned. However, being in government is not about holding conferences; it is about taking decisions. We should be told today about the Government's vaccination policy.

Eric Illsley (Labour, Barnsley Central)

Order. Before the hon. Gentleman starts to discuss vaccination policy, I should inform the Committee that it is dealt with later in the clause.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

I take note of your remark, Mr. Illsley, and I shall say nothing more about the issue now as we shall doubtless debate it in due course.

We must look at the implications of delay, as time is of the essence. In my view, a period of 48 hours after initially entering the holding is a long time, given that, according to all evidence, delay is one reason why the disease spread.

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

In these circumstances, we are not talking about obvious cases. There is no doubt that when a vet visits a farm, there are certain clear opportunities to tell whether cattle or sheep have the disease. We are talking about cases where there is a difference of opinion, and much of the problem relates to the contiguous cull. On the one hand, there is the speculative slaughter that no one wants, where, although there is no proven and clear link, the Ministry none the less thinks it sensible to cull the whole lot to get ahead of the disease. On the other hand, there is reasoned justification on the basis of independent advice and the comments of animal owners and others. The latter approach could surely fit in with the 48-hour period. I am talking not about cases where there is evidence of a clear link, but about holdings where there is currently no proven risk.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that lengthy intervention, and I do not disagree with everything that he says. If people disagree with the contiguous cull strategy through which the foot and mouth outbreak was handled, they should be honest enough to say so. On the basis of the evidence that I have seen, I genuinely believe that there was no alternative to that strategy. People can fantasise about the use of vaccines, and argue that it was possible to delay spread of the disease by careful monitoring of particular holdings, but unfortunately animal diseases do not work in neat ways. According to one devastating piece of evidence presented to the Select Committee—it was presented by epidemiologists rather than vets, but I see no reason for the chief vet to disagree—there is a 50 per cent. greater likelihood of further spread of the disease in areas with an existing outbreak. That suggests that one needs to deal with the cause and the immediate possibility of transmission. We will doubtless discuss this issue in more depth to ensure that we understand it.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

I give way for the last time.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

The hon. Gentleman has been very generous in giving way, but he is ignoring the fact that, in terms of contiguous culls, topography plays a major part in where the disease spreads. He says that he has no difficulty with the contiguous cull where there is evidence of FMD, but the problem is that many contiguous culls were based not on evidence but on suspicion. Given the terrible experience that we have just gone through, we should be able to get back test results much more quickly than we did.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

No, we cannot.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

The Minister says no, and we might ask him why in due course. The fact is that the contiguous cull was based not on evidence but on computer modelling.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

I wish it were that simple. I have talked to vets who made a judgment, disregarding blood tests. Animals were slaughtered on suspicion, based on evidence that vets saw on the holding. Such are the problems that are experienced out in the field. Taking away that power is not what the amendment is about, and I do not want to do that, but I should be interested to hear the Minister's views. The blood test is a nice idea, but as all evidence on sheep has shown, it does not necessarily prove that an animal was not infected with foot and mouth in the past. That is a further example of the importance of time.

I have taken far too long, but this is a useful debate that is central to the reason why the Government need to introduce powers. The question of whether they are the right powers, or whether there are too many of them, is for us to debate. Mention has been made of the need to strengthen measures on imports, but it interesting to note that the only member of the Committee to table an amendment to that effect was me. I look forward to discovering whether Opposition Members feel strongly about that and other matters, and to hearing their views on possible improvements to the Animal Health Act 1981.

Roger Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I should point out that I have declared my interest, as a farmer, in the Register of Members' Interests. As a result of the foot and mouth outbreak, I have been unable to divest myself of that interest as quickly as I would perhaps have liked.

The amendment is central to the Bill. The farming community does not hold DEFRA in high regard because it has reservations about the way in which it dealt with the foot and mouth outbreak. It feels that giving the Department further powers at this stage is premature and unwise. I supported the way in which DEFRA went about controlling foot and mouth, and, in certain cases, I supported the contiguous cull because I thought it politically responsible to introduce such a cull in my constituency. Elements of DEFRA's approach, however, led to confusion, chaos and some cock ups, if that is not an unparliamentary phrase.

Still, I do not believe that there is a Government conspiracy to attack the farming community through the foot and mouth outbreak. On several occasions, I have told farmers—and been criticised by them for doing so—that this Government are not sufficiently competent to organise such a conspiracy. I am glad to see that a number of hon. Members who had foot and mouth in their constituencies are on the Committee. They will have an understanding of the issues raised by the Bill.

Many of the foot and mouth outbreaks in my constituency were obvious, so there was no problem with diagnosis and no complaints from the farming community. DEFRA and the Welsh Assembly took the appropriate action for the farmers involved. Problems arose when foot and mouth was diagnosed on farms, or premises were declared infected, even though it was completely unclear whether foot and mouth was there at all. A number of isolated farms in my constituency were declared infected premises, which brought great chaos for farming neighbours. That happened before the contiguous cull was in action, yet movement of animals was restricted and animals were on form Ds for months. Some farmers are still in at-risk areas and they are having great difficulty in carrying out their business effectively.

I will refer to one farm about which I am still in correspondence with DEFRA and the Welsh Assembly. The farmer believes that she did not have foot and mouth on her farm, and responsibly brought a vet on to her farm to look at the animals. A Ministry vet came but, because he was young and had not seen foot and mouth, he asked for a second opinion. However, he was told by the Ministry that he had to either diagnose foot and mouth or not diagnose it, and he was urged to diagnose. The animals were culled and the farmer's business was ruined. Her neighbours were also caused considerable problems in carrying out their businesses.

The hon. Member for Stroud said that some foreign vets made a contribution to the elimination of foot and mouth. They were from countries where foot and mouth is endemic, so knew what they were looking for. However, it was almost more important for vets to know what foot and mouth was not than what it was. When one sees foot and mouth, there is no problem, but eliminating farms without foot and mouth—taking them out of the net—is more difficult.

The problem with the Bill, and the powers it provides for the Minister, is that farms that are unclear could get caught up in a cull policy, as could contiguous farms. In respect of the farm that I referred to in my constituency, it is bad enough that the neighbours should have been involved in restrictions on animal movement. However, had the contiguous cull policy been enforced at the time—it was at the beginning of the outbreak—those neighbouring farms would also have been involved in that cull. Those issues have been made by many people in the farming community who are concerned about giving the Minister the powers under the Bill.

There is much to commend the amendment, which goes some way to address farmers' fears, and we support it, but it does not go far enough. I would like the Minister to reconsider the issues raised by the amendment.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

A number of serious points have been raised by hon. Members. I take them seriously because they are not unreasonable. I return to the original point about the purpose of this part of the Bill: speed. If a culling policy is to be used for disease control, speed is of the essence. I accept that that should concern not only those who are objecting; the Department, too, has a responsibility to provide the necessary resources and measures. There was much to learn on that during the outbreak.

We had a dramatic outbreak—one of the biggest that the world has ever seen. The scale of it was gigantic, its logistical demands were enormous and dealing with it was difficult. I do not accept comments that suggest that, had there been an immediate stop on movements, things would have been better. I remember that when the outbreak was first announced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne, East and Wallsend (Mr. Brown), praise came from all sides for the speed at which the Government and Department acted. Bearing it in mind that when the outbreak first came to public attention there were only one or two cases in Essex, and that the previous post-1967 outbreak was confined to the Isle of Wight, we must be proportionate and reasonable in our response.

Everything must be taken into account. Stopping all movement of livestock in the country was drastic, had enormous consequences and happened within 48 hours of the outbreak. Everyone who spoke, including the Official Opposition of the time, praised my right hon. Friend for the speed of his actions. We have to look at the issues in retrospect, while remembering that retrospect is a wonderful thing.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

The hon. Gentleman says that retrospect is a wonderful thing—it is something that his party had the benefit of on BSE. Would he acknowledge, retrospectively, the reports, which are well researched, that say that because of the initial delay in stopping animal movements, about 50 per cent. of the stock that were culled need not have been?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

I think that 50 per cent. is going it a bit. Such matters have to be examined.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

By an independent inquiry?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

We shall see. There will be an independent inquiry. Speed has an impact, and its effect is something for independent scientists and epidemiologists to consider. It is hard to make predictions, given the number of animals going through so many livestock markets. I am not sure that an immediate stop would have made a huge difference—it may have made a difference, but not by 50 per cent.

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

I was in the Select Committee meeting when those comments were made, and they may have been given more prominence than the professor had meant. The question of how many animals would have been involved is highly subjective. However, it is not subjective but clear that the movement restriction would have decreased the number considerably—whether it be by 50 per cent. or not. One might therefore suspect that the Government would focus on that first to try to introduce a sweep of regulations that showed that the lessons of foot and mouth disease had been learned. Most of us agree, however, that we have started at the wrong end. If we have learned lessons, why are we not concentrating on movements?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

We are. We introduced a 21-day stop proposal for livestock movements, which we are now applying as part of other measures for the disease. We shall have to discuss with the livestock industry the future of those stops because they are controversial in that industry. The hon. Gentleman is right that the issues that will be highlighted will be the speed of the spread, how the disease was spread, and the role of stops on movements, which are currently applied to the pig industry but not to the sheep and beef industry. All that is now taking place.

Imports are also important and I am not complacent about them. Some people talk about imports in a rather overblown way, and some in the livestock community do not want imports. They want a protectionist policy, for which they are using the outbreak as an excuse. We are considering the notice given and spot checks taken, but we do not need primary legislation to strengthen that; if necessary, it can be achieved by order, so it need not be included under the Bill. If further changes are required, we would not hesitate to make them. We have considered such matters during the various inquiries.

I thought that the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton was rather harsh on Phoenix the calf—Phoenix's agent will not like what she had to say. One of the many myths associated with that story is that a sudden decision was taken because Phoenix looked cuddly. I have followed the course of the outbreak and can tell the hon. Lady that the proposals for exemptions for cattle in the contiguous cull were simply applied. No sudden decision was made. Throughout the outbreak, different methods and changes have been introduced in light of experience, and that is right and proper.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

It would amuse the Committee to hear Andrew Rawnsley's account, but I shall not take up time to read from his well-known book, ``Servants of the People''.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

Very authoritative—a well-known vet and scientist.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

That is the point. The decision about Phoenix the calf was not made on veterinary or scientific advice; it was made by the Government's spin doctors because the Prime Minister was under pressure. It worries me that the Government make decisions in that way. Later in our proceedings, when it may be a tad more appropriate, I may read to the Committee a little from the book on the Phoenix clause, so that it is understood that the decision was made in Downing street and was not based on veterinary science.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

Much as I enjoy reading Andrew Rawnsley and much as I respect him as a journalist, he provided a rich vein of myths about the outbreak.

Let us get to the crux of the issue. The need to explain to farmers and to apply the measures proportionately is accepted. Some reasonable points have been made about how to apply the measure and I shall give further thought to it. Some of my hon. Friends have tabled amendments that also have a bearing on this.

I want to make it absolutely clear that there is already a requirement on the Government to provide reasonable justification. That will apply in practice. It is not necessary to spell it out, because it is taken as read. If the Government do not operate in a proportionate and justified way, of course we shall be open to legal challenge.

Mr. Breed rose—

Mr. Williams rose—

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

In stereo. I give way first to the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Mr. Williams).

Roger Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

The farming community would be encouraged if the Government could give an assurance that the Bill will be accompanied by a commitment to examine the available tests for foot and mouth disease, particularly a test for the virus in blood. If that test could be advanced and if we could be assured that it is acceptable and done on the farm, the knowledge could be used in deciding whether to slaughter. Such decisions would then have much more credibility and the farming community would be better assured about them.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

I am glad to give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. Pirbright is working on such a test to give an immediate reading of antibodies in an animal. However, even with the new tests, there is still a problem and it is the same as with the current blood test--the Elisa test. Blood tests do not pick up the antibodies until the disease is well established in the animal. We want to remove the animal before the disease becomes established. That is one of the problems. Many of the tests on animals that were taken out in contiguous culls or on suspicion came back negative, but the system worked and the animals were taken out before they developed the disease. The results of the blood tests may have come back negative, but they were probably not negative. I return to the point that speed is essential before an animal develops the disease.

Roger Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

The test for antibodies will always be retrospective. What is needed is a test for the virus in the blood, which is entirely different. The Government must give an assurance that they are working on that, because it is what the farming community wants.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

The tests that are being worked on pick up live antibodies. There may be antibodies when the animal has had the disease and recovered, and there may be antibodies when the virus is active. The tests are designed to pick up the active virus, but the disease will still be in the later stages. The technology is developing all the time and there will be different decisions and responses as wider choices become available. I am very keen on that, because I am not one of nature's cullers. It is not my preference to go round knocking off every animal that moves.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

You are not Stalin.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

Absolutely. I refute the allegation that was made on Second Reading.

I want a range of options, including vaccines. We have contingency plans and we shall have a chance to discuss those later. We have always had contingency plans and have held the door open to the use of vaccination. We are trying to develop vaccine technology.

In reality, if there were an outbreak now or in the future, I suspect that the initial response would always be an immediate contiguous cull, and fast and efficient action to try to stop the virus in its tracks. If that did not work, there would probably be a trigger point for vaccination, but one of the difficulties would be to decide what that trigger point should be and how it should be applied. Those are difficult technical issues and we shall have to consider the lessons learned from the current epidemic. I assure the Committee that that will be part of the Government's response.

I suspect that there will always be an element of culling, so we are back to the same issue. The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton asked about the justification and referred to the sweeping powers in the 1981 Act. It is true that they are sweeping powers, but they have provided an opportunity for all sorts of legal challenges for all sorts of reasons--some have been reasonable and some have not--which delayed contiguous culling. The Bill makes it absolutely clear what the Government may choose to do on the basis of veterinary and scientific advice. An example is the 3 km cull in Cumbria, which was carried out under the 1981 Act. We are convinced that it was legal and within the provisions of the Act, but people argued about suspicion and exposure, which led to many legal challenges and a lot of time-wasting. It is one of the reasons, but not the only one, for clarifying the powers so that everyone knows exactly what they are and what is being done.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

The Minister mentioned legal challenges, the number of them and how they delayed matters. Can he tell the Committee how many legal challenges were made and how many the Government won?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

To the Department's knowledge there were about 102 legal challenges, most of which were withdrawn and the animals were culled. I cannot remember the exact number that finally went to court, but it was quite small. The Government's record on court cases was very successful and only a small number of legal challenges was lost. The issue is not whether we win or lose; it is the time that is taken up while legal challenges are made, during which the animals are still alive and at risk of developing the disease. That happened in Thirsk, where a high proportion of the animals in the cases that went on to appeal developed the disease. Each animal that developed the disease affected the contiguous farms. The key is to get ahead of the disease, which is why we are against the 48-hour delay.

I understand the reason for the amendment and we want to try to explain to individual farmers the reason for the application and the procedures that our vets will follow. I am prepared to give some thought to doing that. It need not be in the Bill; it could be in guidance to our vets, which we could make public and consult on. I am willing to consider that. However, to put a requirement for 48 hours' notice in the Bill is not acceptable.

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

While my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire and I were dancing the military two-step a little while ago, the Minister was saying that reasoned judgment would have to be tested at some stage. Is it not likely to be tested by way of judicial review, which would take place after the animals had been culled?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

As I said to the Select Committee, that is likely, but it depends how fast people can move. It would not necessarily take place after the cull, but in reality it probably would in most cases because the issue is speed. We are talking about a war against the disease and, like all wars, this one has rough and ready aspects. The outbreak of foot and mouth cost taxpayers billions of pounds, put enormous stress on individual farmers and did enormous damage to non-farming interests and the tourism industry. We must deal with that as quickly as possible. That is the whole reasoning behind the Bill.

I accept the perfectly reasonable case about the need to apply good practice. In reality, vets would always aim to talk through the reason for culling animals with the owners prior to slaughter. The use of the new power is based on veterinary judgment, and national policies will have to be applied to fight the disease.

Hon. Members have mentioned the need for a balance between speed—getting on with it—and trying to explain things to owners and having reasonable procedures. I am not unsympathetic to that, but I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud that, whether we liked it or not, the contiguous policy was successful. Some say that the price paid for it was too high, and we could argue about that, but it was successful. I accept that we can consider other options for the future. However, having followed the matter in great detail, I suspect that, given the spread and distribution of the disease, the contiguous policy was probably the only way of stamping it out. Had it not been applied, on the worst case projection 50 per cent. of the country's animals would have been affected. There would have been terrible, catastrophic consequences if fighting the outbreak had gone wrong.

I understand the spirit behind the amendments, but 48 hours is not acceptable. Another problem with an obligation to consult the owner is that he might not live on the farm or want to co-operate, which would cause further delay. I accept the perfectly reasonable points about the proportionality of application and the need to explain to owners and farmers the basis and reasons for the decision. I am sure that there are ways of dealing with that and that they do not need to be included in the Bill. There will, however, be discussion on that as the Bill progresses, and I shall give it some thought.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

We have had a wide-ranging, good debate on the amendments, relating to weighty matters. My hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton referred to the wide-ranging powers in the 1981 Act and the added powers in the Bill, especially as they might be interpreted by courts in the future.

I shall not go into detail about comments that other hon. Members made, so as not to hold up the Committee, but I was grateful for the support of the two Liberal Democrat Members, especially the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire, who is a farmer. He described his extreme concern, which we share, at the further powers that will be given to DEFRA, and rightly described them as premature and unwise. He talked of chaos, confusion and mistakes in a more robust way than I should repeat, and pointed out, as have other hon. Members, that many younger vets were not given the support of their superior, more experienced colleagues and had to make decisions on the ground in difficult conditions about whether a herd or flock should be slaughtered.

The hon. Gentleman made an important point, which I also tried to make, but not as well as he did. It was that the greatest difficulty is caused when it is not 100 per cent. clear that FMD is present. I have never met a farmer whose flock or herd has the disease who thinks that there should be any delay in slaughtering. All farmers are very responsible about that. If a farmer is sure that the disease is there, he has no problems with slaughter. It is when the symptoms could have an alternative explanation and when vets cannot diagnose clearly that there is the greatest difficulty. Those cases will be affected by the Bill.

The Bill is unjust and does not give enough power to owners of farms and livestock to get advice and to be consulted thoroughly. During the epidemic, decisions were made in haste, which filled many people with fear and trepidation. Farmers have lost any trust that they might have had in DEFRA and its officials, and believe that the actions taken were disproportionate. My hon. Friends and I think that the Bill should contain safeguards. Although I heed the Minister's comforting words, we cannot accept them. We wish an amendment such as this one to be included in the Bill, so that there is a sensible fall-back to limit the powers given to officials, which are indeed draconian.

During the outbreak, one of my farming constituents asked me whether I could tell him what his rights were. He pointed out that he knew what his responsibilities were, and always discharged them fully, but wanted to know what rights he had if officials were to come on to his farm and tell him to do this, that and the other. He owns the land and the animals. If he had the disease, he accepted that they would have to be culled, but said that he would have no say in how the animals would be disposed of.

That was someone who went through the 1967 outbreak. Members of the farming community face up to their responsibilities. They have no problem with that, but they believe, as do I, that the Bill gives more and disproportionate powers to the Ministry, which we should resist. Sadly, I cannot accept the Minister's assurances, and I shall press the amendment to a vote.

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

Considerable discussion has taken place about the 1981 Act that the clause will amend. I am not entirely sure whether the Act was deficient and needed such additional powers to make it enforceable, or whether the Act has been appropriately used for 20 years. The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton said that it was successfully used during the BSE crisis.

I return to the question of balance. There is little doubt in my mind that clause 1 is unacceptable. Discussion on the amendment has exposed certain difficulties, and the amendment is more in tune with a balanced approach and inclusive decision making. I am glad that it is being pressed to a vote, and we shall support it.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided : Ayes 7, Noes, 9.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

I beg to move amendment No. 36, in page 1, line 10, at end insert—

`(d) but, notwithstanding the power in section 87 of this Act to amend the definition of ``animals'' by order, no animals shall be slaughtered by virtue of this paragraph which are not susceptible to infection of foot and mouth disease.'.

Clause 1 adds to the categories of animals that may be slaughtered because of foot and mouth any animal that the Minister thinks should be slaughtered with a view to preventing the spread of the disease. The amendment would ensure that in taking that power he cannot include animals that are not susceptible to infection by foot and mouth. The definition of ``animals'' in section 87 of the 1981 Act is

``cattle, sheep and goats, and . . . all other ruminating animals and swine'',

and Ministers are given powers by order to extend the definition to

``any kind of mammal except man''—

I am relieved about that, and presume that the Minister is not planning to make any changes in that respect; or perhaps only women are to be exempted. The definition continues:

``and . . . any kind of four-footed beast which is not a mammal.''

The measure then continues in some detail to include the right to issue orders in respect of other species, including

``fish, reptiles, crustaceans, or . . . other cold-blooded creatures''.

The Minister must try to convince the Committee that that extension of his powers will prevent the spread of foot and mouth. Why should he need to add animals that cannot carry or succumb to the disease? Does he think that species that are not already covered by the 1981 Act might have contributed to its spread? I know from his biography that he takes a close interest in birds—of the feathered variety; I could not comment on the other kind.

Has any evidence come out of the recent experience of foot and mouth to necessitate the provision? Such powers should be taken only on the basis of scientific evidence, and I do not recall any data being given in parliamentary debates or anything that I have read suggesting that DEFRA has identified any species not already covered by the 1981 Act that contributed to the spread of foot and mouth. It would be wrong for the Minister to take such powers without proper scientific advice. Why does he believe that he needs them?

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

I rise briefly to support my hon. Friend. It is important that the Minister should explain why section 87 of the 1981 Act, which allows him by order to extend the definition of animals to include any kind of mammal except, as my hon. Friend has just said, man, and any kind of four-footed beast that is not a mammal. It is therefore possible to use the power to slaughter other species, for example, horses and farm dogs, which, although they are not susceptible to foot and mouth disease, could carry and spread it. The obvious purpose of the amendment is to limit the wider power of slaughter that is sought in clause 1 to animals that can catch foot and mouth disease.

In evidence to the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on 6 November, the Minister said that he wanted to make it absolutely clear that the Bill related only to farm animals and susceptible animals, and to the actual wording of the Act. He said that it related to animals defined in section 87 of the Animal Health Act 1981, and that unless the context required otherwise some other species were not covered by the wide incoming powers.

It is not 100 per cent. clear. We should be told categorically which case is true. Is what he said in the Select Committee absolutely right? Can the power to slaughter extend beyond the listed animals that can catch foot and mouth disease to those animals that might unknowingly spread the disease? There are many animals on farms that can do precisely that.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

I assure the hon. Lady that the wording refers to the definition of animals in the 1981 Act, which is not being changed. The wording applies only to susceptible animals. We are considering the matter in terms of foot and mouth disease. The Bill and the 1981 Act apply to all diseases, but I cannot think, in terms of disease control, which other species would be involved apart from farm animals and susceptible animals. In relation to foot and mouth disease, it would not apply to horses and dogs because they are not susceptible. They can spread the disease in the same way in which people spread and move viruses, but that does not justify a culling policy. That is not what we are considering, and it is not within the Bill. ``Any animals'' is included only within the definition in the 1981 Act.

Diana Organ (Labour, Forest of Dean)

Will the Minister be a little clearer about one particular point? He mentioned that he is concerned only with the control of foot and mouth disease and animals that could spread it. What is his view on deer? Deer can spread the disease, and on some estates they could be called a farm animal because they are farmed, not wild.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

I regret to say that deer are susceptible and therefore come within the powers of the 1981 Act. Farm deer can get foot and mouth disease in the same way as cattle, sheep and pigs. Wild deer can also get foot and mouth, although we have no evidence that it is in the wild deer population. Of course, if that were the case we would have powers to deal with it. Currently, we regard the risks in the wild deer population to be low, but we cannot rule that out at this stage of the disease, which is active and at high levels in certain parts of the country. Deer are susceptible, and if they have caught the disease they come within the 1981 Act.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

I should be most grateful if the Minister gave me an example of a species that is not currently covered by the 1981 Act. I assume that the question that he has just answered about deer is covered by section 87(1)(b) of the 1981 Act, which refers to ``all other ruminating animals''.

However, the explanatory notes to the Bill state:

``This adds to the categories of animals which may be slaughtered because of FMD any animal which the Minister thinks should be slaughtered''.

Other than those categories defined in the 1981 Act, of which categories is the Minister thinking?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

That is the way in which the measure has been drafted in relation to the 1981 Act, which may be applied to the range of species that are regarded as susceptible. The range of species in the 1981 Act can be changed, but only by order. If there were a requirement to change the 1981 Act in relation to species—I cannot think of circumstances in which that would happen, but who knows in relation to diseases?—it would be by order, and there would be an opportunity to discuss it in Parliament.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

This is FMD-specific. The explanatory notes to clause 1 state that it

``extends the range of animals which . . . may . . . be slaughtered in relation to FMD.''

We are not discussing swine fever. I am still not sure what the Minister is trying to do in extending the category. I have not heard him name a species that is not already covered in the 1981 Act, other than those sub-species subject to order. Those sub-species extend the definition of animal, and include a range of other creatures that are mainly wild, as opposed to farmed or domestic, animals. Will the Minister give me one example of why he is taking this power, because I cannot see a category that is not already covered that would be susceptible to foot and mouth disease?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

I can explain the matter: as I suspected, it is a legal drafting point. The hon. Lady is mistaken in thinking in terms of a range of species. The measure refers to categories such as exposure to contact, not necessarily categories of animals.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

In that case, would it not be unreasonable to refuse to include amendment No. 36? As the Minister will be aware, it states:

``notwithstanding the power in section 87 of this Act . . . no animals shall be slaughtered by virtue of this paragraph, which are not susceptible to infection of foot and mouth disease.''

That seems reasonable to me.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

It does seem reasonable, but it is not required because it does not apply in the way in which the hon. Lady thinks it does. It is therefore unnecessary.

Richard Bacon (Conservative, South Norfolk)

Does my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton agree that the Bill gives the Minister the power to slaughter any animal, at any time, for any reason?

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

I agree with my hon. Friend. [Interruption.] The Minister says from a sedentary position, ``That is wrong.'' However, we are seeking definition. The power is FMD-specific. He feels that he has to take such a power, but will not agree to an amendment that is FMD-specific. He agreed that the amendment seemed reasonable. If we were giving him a general power that covered a range of animal diseases, which might include other species of animal, I could understand him pressing the point, but we are not. Clearly, if one is looking to control foot and mouth disease by extending one's powers, it is reasonable to say that those powers should be related to the species that we know carry the infection. If it were discovered that birds could spread foot and mouth disease, the Minister would come back with an order and amend the legislation.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

The hon. Lady may be right on the last point. There have been allegations that birds have spread foot and mouth disease, but the evidence is not there for it to be a major issue. Nevertheless, all such matters are considered, and I am sure that matter will be considered by the inquiries.

I return to my point. FMD-specific powers relate to any animals—in plural. The animals are listed by species, but they are listed in terms of susceptible animals, and they are limited by the 1981 Act. All species in the Bill would apply only by amending the 1981 Act by order.

Eric Illsley (Labour, Barnsley Central)

Does the hon. Lady wish to press the amendment to a vote?

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

Yes.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 5, Noes 9.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

I beg to move amendment No. 86, in page 1, leave out lines 12 to 20 and insert—

`(1A) In applying subparagraph (1)(c) above the Minister will exclude animals not affected, nor having been in contact with affected animals, nor exposed to the infection of FMD, which have been kept indoors constantly since the day before the first announcement by any Government Department of an outbreak.'.

Eric Illsley (Labour, Barnsley Central)

With this we may discuss the following amendments:

No. 117, in page 1, line 12, leave out `is immaterial' and insert

`must be taken account of and subject to judicial review'.

No. 1, in page 1, line 12, leave out `immaterial' and insert `material'.

No. 2, in page 1, line 14, leave out from `disease' to end of line 15.

No. 9, in page 1, line 14, leave out `suspected of being' and insert `reasonably believed to be'.

No. 3, in page 1, line 16, at end insert—

`(ba) are or have been in contact with a person who has been in contact with, or is suspected of having been in contact with, animals affected with foot-and-mouth disease'.

No. 10, in page 1, line 17, leave out sub-sub-paragraph (c).

No. 21, in page 1, line 20, at end insert—

`(a) could be vaccinated against foot-and-mouth.'.

No. 37, in page 1, line 20, at end insert—

`(1B) Where none of sub-paragraphs (1A)(a) to (d) above apply to the animals in question, the Minister shall serve on the owner of the animals (or in default of the owner being traceable the keeper of the animals) a notice containing a reasoned justification for his decision to require the slaughter of the animals, and no slaughter shall take place until at least 48 hours have elapsed from the serving of the notice.'.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

This is another group of amendments that seeks to improve legislation proposed by the Government. Amendment No. 86 states that in applying subparagraph (1)(c),

`the Minister will exclude animals not affected, nor having been in contact with affected animals, nor exposed to the infection of FMD, which have been kept indoors constantly since the day before the first announcement by any Government Department of an outbreak.'.

Although that is a modest proposal, many examples that have already been referred to fall into that category. For example, there are animals that, because of the topography, time of year or nature of the farming, have a minimal chance of becoming infected. According to some of the Government's past plans, such animals would be slaughtered.

I shall not detail the many relevant examples that exist because to do so would hold up the Committee, but I shall certainly mention one. It will be apparent to the Minister and to the Committee that consideration should be given to dairy herds that have been kept throughout the winter in buildings on the far side of the farm, far further than 3 km away from the outbreak, excluded from nose-to-nose contact and kept in good biosecurity conditions. Such an example is one reason why we mentioned in previous debates the importance of knowledge of local farming practices when deciding how to implement Government policy.

Where animals have been kept away from infection prior to the first announcement of an outbreak by a Government Department, the matter would seem cut-and-dried, in that they have been kept as securely as possible. Will the Minister give serious consideration to that problem, which the amendment seeks to deal with? It would not be difficult to exclude such animals in future, given better testing and more research. We all hope that tests that can diagnose the virus before the disease shows itself will be developed and introduced in due course. That will help to control the disease and to prevent the kind of epidemic that we have just experienced.

Many culled animals had not been in any contact with infected animals or exposed in any way whatsoever. One reason why so many farmers questioned the contiguous cull was that they felt that their own circumstances were totally different and did not merit it. They understood the policy and agreed that if there were disease, or, sometimes, any danger of disease, there should be instant slaughter, but in certain cases they felt that it was unjust.

I want to flesh out the point about situations where the disease is suspected. Amendment No. 9 would insert the phrase, ``reasonably believed to be''. In other words, there must be a greater burden of proof that disease is apparent in the flock—it will usually be a flock, because it is self-evident in a herd and is much easier to diagnose. I accept the Minister's assertion that instant slaughter is vital in order to contain the disease, but he says that with the benefit of hindsight following the recent outbreak, and we hope that in future such matters will be handled differently. Amendment No. 9 would allow certain exceptions to be made that would not create the danger of further spread of the disease.

Another issue has come to light more forcefully of late with the publication in lower Cheshire of information about the right to roam legislation. Having had a brief glance at the map, I see that it includes not only heath and moorland, but pastures and farms where animals are out. It could cause problems if people gain access to such land, quite legitimately, by walking down footpaths.

There is another danger, of which I shall give an example. I recently spoke to a farmer in north Yorkshire who said that one of their fields was right on the road, and someone had thrown a cow's tail into the herd. They did not know whether it was someone making mischief, or whether the tail had had contact with foot and mouth disease. It was immediately sent off for testing and when I last spoke to them they were still awaiting the results. It appeared to be a mystery.

People walking or driving along a road trying to make mischief could have a devastating effect. Equally, people who have been in contact with foot and mouth are able to walk through farmland, where they may, perhaps not deliberately, cause the infection to be spread. The Minister should consider that because it raises the problem of access to farmland. In the previous debate, we spoke about the lists of animals that do not contract foot and mouth but that may play a part in its spread. Horses are one such species, but dogs are also a likely risk. Although dogs should be kept on a lead, often they are not. I have a public footpath running through my property and, more often than not, I have to ask people to put their dogs on leads. That is a risk that should be considered.

Amendment No. 37 would provide for a notice to be given to an owner. It states that

``the Minister shall serve on the owner of the animals . . . a notice''—

or, if the owner is not available or present, it shall be served on the person keeping the animals. A case in point concerns extensification in the sheep industry where sheep are sent to winter off on different parcels of land. One of the differences between intensification and extensification is that in intensive situations the fodder is brought to the animals, while in extensification animals are taken to the fodder. That means that many flocks are on different parcels of land, where the owner is not present, and are looked after by others on behalf of the owner. The amendment tries to ensure that the notice giving justification for the Minister's decision to require the slaughter of animals should be given to the person looking after the animals and that

``no slaughter shall take place until at least 48 hours have elapsed from the serving of the notice.''

I am sure that the Minister will advance arguments that he gave in previous debates and I understand that this is one of the issues surrounding the firebreak cull. However, requiring the Minister to serve such a notification on farmers or animal keepers, and delaying slaughter for 48 hours would not be prejudicial. It is important that the Minister justifies why he should be able to slaughter any animals without advance notification to the farmers concerned. I know that many colleagues will want to comment on the amendments. They are important and weighty and I hope that the Minister will give them full consideration.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

I understand the point made by the hon. Lady. During the outbreak, it was considered that housed cattle were in a more secure position than cattle which were out. The outbreak happened in February and many cattle were still in winter housing. Unfortunately, however, many cattle went down even though they were kept in sheds.

The hon. Lady's point is not unreasonable because, when one takes into account a contiguous cull, there must be a risk assessment and that was, indeed, applied to cattle. Local vets were given discretion to take a decision on whether adequate biosecurity existed in certain areas and whether cattle could be exempted from the contiguous cull. That was introduced during the outbreak.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

That may have been the case as more farmers became aware of what they could do, such as challenge the contiguous cull, but it was not so in the early days when people were bullied into having their herds, particularly dairy herds, slaughtered, and perhaps that should not have taken place. I fully accept that later in the epidemic farmers were more aware of the opportunity to discuss matters before slaughter took place. I therefore accept the Minister's point, but point out that that was not case throughout the epidemic.

It being twenty-five minutes past Eleven o'clock, The Chairman adjourned the Committee without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned till this day at half-past Two o'clock.

Standing Committee E

Clause 1 - FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE

Derek Conway (Conservative, Old Bexley and Sidcup)

I remind the Committee that with this we are taking the following amendments: No. 117, in page 1, line 12, leave out ``is immaterial'' and insert

``must be taken account of and subject to judicial review''.

No. 1, in page 1, line 12, leave out ``immaterial'' and insert ``material''.

No. 2, in page 1, line 14, leave out from ``disease'' to end of line 15.

No. 9, in page 1, line 14, leave out ``suspected of being'' and insert ``reasonably believed to be''.

No. 3, in page 1, line 16, at end insert—

``(ba) are or have been in contact with a person who has been in contact with, or is suspected of having been in contact with, animals affected with foot-and-mouth disease''.

No. 10, in page 1, line 17, leave out sub-sub-paragraph (c).

No. 21, in page 1, line 20, at end insert—

``(a) could be vaccinated against foot-and-mouth.''.

No. 37, in page 1, line 20, at end insert—

``(1B) Where none of sub-paragraphs (1A)(a) to (d) above apply to the animals in question, the Minister shall serve on the owner of the animals (or in default of the owner being traceable the keeper of the animals) a notice containing a reasoned justification for his decision to require the slaughter of the animals, and no slaughter shall take place until at least 48 hours have elapsed from the serving of the notice.''.

Because of the heat in the Room, which I gather was cold this morning, if hon. Members wish to remove their jackets, that is in order, but not ties or any other apparel.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

Thank you, Mr. Conway. I am pleased to see you in the Chair for this sitting, and look forward to your guidance of the Committee.

To recap briefly on my remarks on amendment No. 86, the principles in it involve taking into account the risks with animals not carrying foot and mouth disease, animals that have not been exposed to the disease and animals that have been kept indoors since the day before the outbreak was first announced. Those are legitimate issues that vets on the ground would take into account in their risk assessments in any culling programme or contiguous cull.

It would not make sense to include that in the Bill because it would put an undue burden on the Government to demonstrate that animals did not fall into any of those categories before the cull took place. That would give great opportunity to anyone who wished to, to delay proceedings. The whole idea is to ensure that culls are carried out as quickly as possible. Those aspects, as part of a risk assessment, are perfectly reasonable and there is no reason why our veterinary service cannot take them into account, as it currently does.

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Breed, and look forward to your guidance.

I have much sympathy with the amendments that have been discussed so far, but I wish to speak to my own amendment, No. 117. Many words, such as those often found in legal documents, are pregnant with meaning. ``Material'', ``immaterial'', ``reasonable'' and ``unreasonable'' are such words. The word ``immaterial'' appears to be in the manner of the Government's wish to have a catch-all provision. There are many things that are absolutely material to any decision that will be made, as has been amply demonstrated in our discussions so far.

We are, again, seeking to achieve a balance between preventing delay and possible spread on one hand and the rights of individual farmers on the other. We should seek to ensure that people will not cause unreasonable delay by any of the means to which the Minister referred. Some people might want to use parts of the legislation in order to delay, but they would have to prove that that was reasonable, and that they were not unreasonably delaying any proposal to cull or vaccinate their animals. Such matters would be subject to judicial review at some stage, which is why that aspect has been included in my amendment.

I recognise that the Government want to have as free a hand as possible, but should we use the word ``immaterial'' for any circumstance? We want to give the Bill some longevity. Should that term apply in circumstances that have not yet arisen but might arise in the future, from reports or anywhere else? Some sparkling pieces of wisdom might ultimately come from the reports now being undertaken, but they will all be encompassed here under the term ``immaterial''.

It is clearly wrong to have such words in a Bill because, many years down the line, however substantive a reason might be, it can be called immaterial and not taken into account. We need some definition here. We must ensure that people do not unreasonably delay anything in the legislation for their own reasons, and that such things are properly considered in judicial review. We should seek to balance the different interests. The use of the word ``immaterial'' is too heavy-handed and catch-all.

I would like to refer to traceability, which comes up later in the Bill. If we are to have effective controls for movement, ownership and scrapie, traceability is key to what we seek to achieve. I hope that, at some stage in the Bill's passage, the Minister will be able to provide evidence about the Government's direction on traceability. It is becoming clearer as we go into detail that identifying individual animals and tracing where they have been and what they have been subject to, or in contact with, will be very important, especially if a judicial review is to take place afterwards.

On a technical point, amendment No. 21 says ``(a) could be vaccinated''. Should it be ``(e) could be vaccinated''? Is it an additional reason?

Derek Conway (Conservative, Old Bexley and Sidcup)

Just to help the hon. Gentleman, I think that it is a misprint.

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

So that should be ``(e)'' and not ``(a)''. That just demonstrates that I read my documents.

Richard Bacon (Conservative, South Norfolk)

It is a great pleasure to speak for the first time in Committee with you in the Chair, Mr. Conway.

There has been much talk about balance, to which the hon. Member for South-East Cornwall (Mr. Breed) has just referred. The Minister referred several times to proportionality. I would like to examine that more closely, because it bears directly on some of the amendments.

The concept of proportionality clearly entails a notion of balance and of a proper relationship between means and ends. Case law gives us greater detail about the tests that should be applied in determining whether an act is proportionate. There are three basic principles: first, whether the disputed measure is the least restrictive that could be adopted in the circumstances; secondly, whether the means adopted are necessary to achieve the end and whether they correspond to its importance; and, thirdly, whether the challenged act is suitable and necessary for the achievement of its objective and does not impose excessive burdens on the individual.

Let me take those points in turn. First, according to the Bill, the disputed measure is not the least restrictive possible in the circumstances. Amendment No. 86, which would exclude animals kept constantly indoors, might help to make the actions more proportionate, or less restrictive, but the Minister rejects it. A pig farmer in my constituency keeps his pigs in the tightest conditions of biosecurity, and as a result he was not exposed to classical swine fever, even though it came to Norfolk, or to foot and mouth—Norfolk was blessedly free of foot and mouth. None of that would matter under the terms of the Bill, if there is no proportionality in it.

The truly draconian nature of the Bill becomes more evident when we look at the second principle--that the means adopted should correspond to the importance of the end and be necessary to achieve it. As the hon. Member for South-East Cornwall said, the word ``immaterial'' crops up in the Bill. My hon. Friends and I want to amend that. One of our amendments seeks to specify that whether animals were affected or suspected of being affected

``must be taken account of and subject to judicial review''.

The Minister rejects that, too. He has already said that he thinks that it would not be practicable to have a judicial review and slaughter afterwards if the Government's case were found, and that a judicial review would take place after slaughter. However, article 6(1) of the European convention states:

``In the determination of his civil rights and obligations . . . everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgement shall be pronounced publicly''.

If one is to go against that, one ought to have a pretty good reason for doing so. We have seen as much with the anti-terrorist legislation that is before the House. There has been debate on the Home Secretary's seeking to introduce derogation from the European convention on the ground that there is an extreme emergency.

Interestingly, even where a derogation is sought, the circumstances in which it is appropriate are circumscribed by law. As an article in a recent book, ``Human Rights—An Agenda for the 21st Century'', points out, the

``main requirement posed by the derogation regime, for there to be a legitimate derogation from otherwise protected rights, is that the circumstances in which the derogation has been effected constitute an exceptional threat. A derogation justifying emergency cannot be just any crisis. It has to be a truly extraordinary exigency, a `public emergency threatening the life of the nation'.''

The article continues by addressing directly the question of proportionality:

``The overarching requirement . . . is . . . further strengthened by the principle of proportionality that forms another fundamental pillar of the derogation regime. Even when an act of derogation may be justified under the human rights conventions, the State does not enjoy an unfettered discretion with respect to the derogation measures that it wishes to pursue. Such measures can only be taken `to the extent strictly required by the exigencies of the situation.' This means that derogation measures employed by a government must be proportional''—

I emphasise the word ``proportional''—

``to the particular threat, both with respect to degree and duration.''

The extraordinary point about the Bill is that the Government are not even seeking a derogation. On the front page, the Secretary of State says:

``In my view the provisions of the Animal Health Bill are compatible with the Convention rights.''

Even if the Government had sought a derogation, they might well be on dodgy ground legally, because they would not have unfettered discretion. They have not sought a derogation, however, although they have claimed the most extraordinary and sweeping powers for themselves.

The third issue is whether the challenged action is suitable and necessary for the achievement of its objective, and does not impose excessive burdens on the individual. Some hon. Members may be familiar with the Rosemary Upton case, which, according to the Ministry, was even more serious than a contiguous premises case. It was said that Rosemary Upton was a dangerous contact, and the Ministry was adamant that her remaining animals had the disease and would therefore have to be destroyed as quickly as possible. Throughout that case, Rosemary Upton offered to let the Ministry blood test her animals in order to check its strenuously asserted belief. The Ministry rejected that opportunity, however.

After listening to the argument for three days, the High Court was satisfied that the right way forward was the testing that Rosemary Upton had offered all along. The Ministry's application for an injunction was dismissed and it was ordered to pay all Rosemary Upton's costs, which it would hardly have been expected to do had she been behaving in a dangerous or irresponsible way. In other words, the requirement that the challenged act does not impose excessive burdens on the individual was not met either.

I do not know why the Government were given legal advice to the effect that the Bill does not contravene the European convention on human rights—perhaps the lawyer who offered it was drunk at the time. It seems extraordinary to suppose that the Bill is not in very serious breach of the convention. It was not the Conservative party that introduced the convention into English law. Many warnings were issued at the time that there would be all manner of unsavoury repercussions. The Government have made their own bed and I am afraid that, if the amendments are not accepted, they will have to lie in it. Should the Bill become law in its present form, it will not stand and the Government will have to go back to the drawing board.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Conway. Like others, this is the first time that I have served in Committee under your chairmanship, and I look forward to the experience.

I want to discuss the Bill's use of the word ``immaterial'' and amendment No. 1, which would remove it, because the issue is central. Clause 1 encapsulates the criticisms of those in this House and outside who feel that the Bill is draconian. As has been noted, by inserting in the 1981 Act the phrase

``any animals the Minister thinks should be slaughtered with a view to preventing the spread of foot-and-mouth'',

the Bill will grant the Minister the power to do what he thinks should be done in terms of slaughter. Astonishingly, however, subsection (3)(1A) states that it is immaterial whether animals

``are affected with foot-and-mouth disease or suspected of being so affected'',

whether they

``are or have been in contact with animals so affected'',

whether they

``have been exposed to the infection of foot-and-mouth disease'',

``have been treated with vaccine against foot-and-mouth disease.''

According to the Oxford English Dictionary definition, ``immaterial'' means

``having no physical substance; of no importance''.

When a Minister so exercises his powers, how can all those qualifying factors possibly be of no importance? In terms of balance and natural justice, it beggars belief that anyone could regard the provision as acceptable.

Amendment No. 1, which would replace the word ``immaterial'' with ``material'', is tiny but it is perhaps one of the most important that we are considering. As we have heard, under the Bill as drafted the Minister can think and carry out action that can affect any animal, regardless of any recognisable condition that would justify its being slaughtered.

Mr. Morley indicated dissent.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

The Minister shakes his head, but much of today's debate has been based on the premise that a risk assessment will be made, and that when push comes to shove and the Minister has to seek guidance, it will be based on veterinary advice. By excluding those conditions and making them ``of no importance'', the Minister has made it difficult for anybody else to measure the transparency of a given risk assessment. I hope he agrees that it is essential to the wider public, especially those who own the animals, that a risk assessment and its formulation be transparent. If those conditions are excluded as ``immaterial'', one wonders what will be left that is material on which a judgment could be made.

As with many other Bills that have passed through the House in the past four years, we are being asked to enact legislation on the basis that important decision making will be at the discretion of Ministers. We are being asked to trust them to do the right thing and show fairness and proportionality. A little earlier, the Minister prayed in aid the fact that he would not advocate unnecessary slaughter. I want to remind him, however, of his track record on mass slaughter. In March 1996, the Animal Protesters' Bulletin published an article about BSE by the Minister, who was then Opposition spokesman on agriculture and rural affairs, in which he concluded:

``Calves for export are not currently included in the European ban as it has not yet been proved that BSE passes from cow to calf. If this is proved, then the slaughter of the whole UK herd is inevitable.''

We now know—as we knew then, because it was identified in the trials that went on before the Government came to office—that there is indeed maternal transmission, but at such a low rate that there is clearly no need to slaughter the whole national herd. However, that was the Minister's judgment at that time.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

Will the hon. Lady give way?

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

I shall in a moment.

The Minister did not hesitate to recommend the slaughter of the whole national herd based on a presumption about a matter that was subject to scientific research and properly controlled experimentation. There was no question of confusing cows and calves with sheep and lambs in the research that was being conducted then by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. When we are asked to put into legislation and support powers whereby he and other Ministers will exercise judgment and power during a future foot and mouth crisis, we are reticent about doing so.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

The Animal Protesters' Bulletin is not one of the most reliable sources of quotes. I am willing to engage with any organisation or group, and I have on occasion contacted them to point out that they are mistaken in what they have said. I do not recall having made those comments. However, if we ever found ourselves in a doomsday scenario in which BSE was rife in the UK herd and being passed on maternally so that it was constantly present, that would be a severe problem. I am glad to say that we are not in that position.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

If the Minister would like a copy of issue number 47 of the Animal Protesters' Bulletin, which carries the article in his name from which I quoted, I shall make it available to him. However, he knows only too well that a few years ago our roles were reversed: I was the Minister and he was the animal rights campaigner constantly banging on my door about animal welfare issues. What goes around comes around. My memory is long, as are my archives.

I hope that he will take my point that such an important matter should not rest merely on personal intuition on the part of a Minister. Safeguards should be built into the Bill, but that is far from being the case and clause 1 epitomises that. The Bill is not proportionate, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr. Bacon) said. It is not even reasonable in the sense of natural justice. It is draconian, and nowhere more so than in this clause.

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

I am following what the hon. Lady says with great interest and look forward to any other pieces of archive material that may turn up in the course of our deliberations. Perhaps the real reason for the provision is so that the Government can defend themselves in any judicial review, but how can anyone defend himself by saying, ``Basically, I can do anything I like''?

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

The hon. Gentleman is right. One of the first things I said in the debate on the programme resolution was that the Bill is fundamentally flawed in terms of its legal powers, and I am sure that it will be challenged legally. We have already discovered that the Government are not amenable to perfectly reasonable amendments that are intended to help them to improve the Bill. It falls foul of the European convention on human rights, and the courts will find that any powers that the Minister needs to deal with emergency situations caused by animal diseases are already enshrined in the Animal Health Act 1981, and that these provisions are disproportionate.

Bill Wiggin (Conservative, Leominster)

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Conway.

I want to discuss the keeping of animals inside. The Minister will have read in Farmers' Weekly about the activities of a company called Cogent, which locked up its bulls in an airtight shed, along with two members of staff—[Interruption.] It was airtight—or sufficiently airtight to prevent the virus from gaining access. Perhaps hon. Members are more expert on the airtightness of sheds than on the transmission of the virus. My point is that the Bill does not give people the opportunity to help themselves. If a company can go to those lengths to ensure the survival of its livestock—the genetic information stored in those bulls was so vital that it was prepared to take the financial steps necessary to safeguard them—we must consider an amendment of this nature.

Diana Organ (Labour, Forest of Dean)

I should have thought that the genetic material from bulls could easily be stored in their semen.

Bill Wiggin (Conservative, Leominster)

The company in question produces semen. I think that it was looking to keep more than just one or two straws.

We shall go on to discuss biosecurity and continue to lament the fact that it was possible for the disease to spread as it did. The amendment would give people a chance to help themselves to combat it. I hope that Labour Members will consider that carefully before voting against it.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

That is precisely the situation now. If farmers can demonstrate good biosecurity, exemptions can be made. The amendment is therefore unnecessary. The company in the hon. Gentleman's example demonstrated extremely good biosecurity—naturally, as it did not want to jeopardise very valuable animals.

Richard Bacon (Conservative, South Norfolk)

When the Minister says that exemptions can be made, does he mean, ``If I, the Minister, feel that exemptions should be made, I shall do so''? I return to the example of the Norfolk farmer whose pigs did not get classical swine fever, although it was all around, and who, like others in Norfolk, was not affected by foot and mouth. Under the Bill, could the Minister, if he so chose, go to that farm and kill those pigs?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

I should put it this way. A decision has to be made on the ground in relation to the appropriate measures to contain disease spread. That is what the Bill is all about. Opposition Members seem to be trying to put as many obstructions as possible in the way of our vets, saying what they can and cannot do.

It comes down to the issue of proportionality, which the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Mrs. Browning) mentioned. She must bear it in mind that the slaughter powers in the Bill are no different from any other measure that the Government have to put in place. They are obliged to demonstrate that any measures that they implement are proportionate. One of the tests of proportionality is satisfied if a fair balance is struck between the rights of individuals and the public interest. The means by which that is achieved is no more restrictive than necessary. Those are the kinds of tests that are applied.

Richard Bacon (Conservative, South Norfolk)

The Minister ignores the fact that natural justice requires the right to a fair hearing. He has already said that, were there a judicial review it would, from a practical point of view, have to take place after slaughter, by which time it would be rather late. I return to my question, which he did not answer: if the Bill were to go through unamended, would he have the power to go on to my farmer's farm and kill those pigs?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

This is being presented as though I would spend my time lurking around the back streets of Norfolk or Suffolk looking for pigs to slaughter. The answer is that it depends on the risk assessment, the veterinary advice and the risk that that particular herd posed in relation to spreading or harbouring a disease. Those risks would be assessed on the basis of the circumstances and the professional view of the veterinary surgeons involved.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

How can such veterinarians make a transparent risk assessment, when the Bill states that they should disregard whether animals

``(a) are affected with foot-and-mouth disease or suspected of being so affected;

(b) are or have been in contact with animals so affected;

(c) have been exposed to infection of foot-and-mouth disease;

(d) have been treated with vaccine against foot-and-mouth disease''?

If they must disregard all that, what sort of veterinary advice does the Minister think that he will get?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

That suggests that veterinarians are compelled to discount those reasons. The hon. Lady should not interpret the Bill in that way. It is worded in that way because there may be circumstances in which the veterinary advice is for a firebreak cull. We had a firebreak cull in Dumfries when all sheep were taken out in a 3 km zone, and there was also a firebreak cull in Cumbria, which was supported by farmers. When the Prime Minister went to Cumbria, farmers were pressing strongly for more culls to stop the spread of disease. During the course of the disease, consideration was given, for example, to whether there should be a firebreak cull to protect the intensive pig units in east Yorkshire from the Thirsk outbreak. We also considered whether we should use vaccination.

The 3 km culls took place under the 1981 Act. Individuals who say that there were no powers to do that are now challenging those culls, even though it is clear that they were carried out under powers in that Act. Clause 1 makes the position absolutely clear. If, in future, firebreak culls were considered to be an essential part of disease control—it would have to be proportionate and there would have to be justification—there would be no argument about terminology.

The current argument is about the terminology of the 1981 Act. Some people will advance those arguments because they want to delay culling. Some people are against any kind of culling. Some people have legitimate concerns about culling, about which there is a legitimate debate, but there are also people who want to delay culling. The clause is worded in that way so that there is no argument about powers, and there is no opportunity for people to use legal proceedings to argue in a nit-picking way about the interpretation of language.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

The point is that the Bill deals not only with firebreak culls, but with any culling for any reason whatsoever. If the Government were bringing forward legislation as a result of experience gained during the recent foot and mouth outbreak, and in particular experience of where firebreak culls took place or were frustrated, one might consider it to be a little more reasonable. However, we have not had the results of the inquiries looking into the detail of how those firebreak culls worked, or did not work. All the Minister can say is, ``Court cases are still going on.'' On that basis, he is trying to put primary legislation on to the statute book to give him greater powers.

The Bill is not based on analysis of what happened, or on a proposition that an additional clause should be added specifically to cover future Ministers who want to use firebreak culls. It is in advance of scientific analysis. It is another example of how the Government are seeking to put draconian powers on to the statute book, not on the basis of veterinary or scientific analysis, but purely for political expediency, because it does not suit them to have their views and decisions challenged in a court of law. That is the people's right, which the House is here to uphold.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

That is just bonkers, frankly. Why on earth would the Government want to impose these measures against the advice of vets and scientists? The Bill is based on veterinary and scientific advice, and the experience of dealing with the foot and mouth disease outbreak. There have been several changes in policy because we learn from the experience as we discover more about the nature and development of the outbreak, which I must remind the hon. Lady is not yet over; there are still risks.

The purpose of the measures is to provide a range of options in disease control. That does not necessarily mean that we would want to use firebreak culls again. I do not know about that because it would depend on the circumstances and the advice. If vaccines became more efficient it would be better to use them as a firebreak rather than culling. Those are decisions for scientists and vets, and it is their advice on which Governments act—as the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton well knows.

Patrick Hall (Labour, Bedford)

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Bill does not propose to abolish the current right for a farmer to appeal to the district veterinary manager with regard to a proposed cull? In order for that appeal to have an effect, several matters regarding the local veterinary situation would have to be taken in account. Some of those matters would be material. Some are listed in the Bill. Would it not be helpful if he were to make available to the Committee the sorts of considerations that the district veterinary manager could take into account in making that appeal wholesome and real? Will he explain how he sees that appeal sitting comfortably with the proposals in the Bill?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and I am sympathetic to the case he is making. When we come to the appeal procedures, he will have an opportunity to discuss those issues, which we shall talk about in greater detail.

My hon. Friend is correct to say that the right to judicial review will not be taken away, and that it is open to any individual who wants to take it. Such a review would not necessarily be after the event; it would depend on the circumstances. I should not want to mislead the Committee. I have always tried to be open and straightforward in my answers. I accept that, if a Bill is designed to speed up culling measures, more than likely, the animals will have been culled before judicial review of the procedure. However, that does not take away the right. If the judicial review were successful, it would bring about a rethink of the Government's policies. The appeal remains an important right that is not being taken away from individuals.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

Will the Minister give his advice for the benefit of the Committee? In what, if any, circumstances would a judicial review be held before slaughter? Will he list the circumstances in which that would happen, because the presumption is the other way round?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

It is not the presumption that is the other way round; it is the practical application. There is a range of reasons, not all of which are relevant, why people have asked for judicial reviews, which are a matter for lawyers and not a matter for me. It depends on the circumstances and the speed of legal proceedings, on which I am not an expert. All I know is that it is not right to say that in every single circumstance a judicial review could not take place before the animals were slaughtered. However, I must be honest and say that as the Bill is designed to be quick about the slaughter, more than likely, the animals would be dead. I would not want to mislead anybody about that.

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

The Minister is trying to say that there will be implicit reasonableness when the Bill is enacted. However, we are trying to make what he can and cannot do explicit. We will keep returning to the question of balance. If we accepted the notion that all existing and future generations will have implicit confidence in the Government whom they have elected, there would be no need for any legislation because the Government would always act favourably. On the basis that that is fairly unlikely, we need legislation that is explicit. To introduce legislation that is vastly implicit about everything that will happen in future is not helpful.

The Minister raised a point about public interest, which was interesting. From our experience of foot and mouth during the past few months, there was a change in the public perception of what the public interest is. On Second Reading, and in other debates, it has been said that, if the Government tried to proceed with a contiguous cull in the same way that they have done in the past, there would be considerable public opposition. A balance must be struck. The public interest, as perceived through issues such as the locality and the industry, is one thing, but I do not think that to introduce culls all over again, based on legislation that provides for the widest spread of sweeping powers, will command public support, and that is an important part of public interest.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

The hon. Gentleman is opening up the debate to wider issues, such as whether it could be regarded as in the public interest if the same scale of culling were repeated. That is a moot point, which the independent inquiries will be addressing. I return to my point that we should not take the Bill as a template for an automatic response by the Government in future. I probably agree with him that, given the overall effects and costs of culling on such a scale, people would not want to see it again. However, given the problem of the widespread nature of the disease, it is a moot point as to whether any other option could have been chosen in this outbreak. I suspect that there was no other option.

We must think ahead and have contingencies for all eventualities. I suspect that the suite of powers that covers all diseases and the range of options may be used in a more localised fashion than they have been in the recent outbreak. However, we cannot escape from the fact that if they are to be used, they must be quick and efficient. There is an inherent responsibility on the Government to act proportionately and to strike a fair balance between the rights of individuals and the public interest. I am not averse to the notion that we could have public guidelines about how to do that.

As I said this morning, I am willing to give further thought to one or two of the issues raised. There may be ways in which we can give reassurance, but not necessarily under the provisions of the Bill, because one cannot deal with every eventuality in that way. I accept that people want to know the thinking that would be applied in different scenarios and I am in favour of that being open and transparent. I am not against considering how that might be achieved during discussion on the Bill.

Richard Bacon (Conservative, South Norfolk)

The Minister reiterated the need to act proportionately and to strike a fair balance between the rights of Government and the rights of individuals. He also said earlier that there is no opportunity to argue—the record will show that. If there is no opportunity to argue, how can one possibly strike a fair balance between the rights of Government and those individuals?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

The hon. Gentlemen suggests that my sentence ended abruptly at ``argue''. I suspect that I said something after that, perhaps about arguing about the principles, or whatever. Of course, there will be opportunities to appeal and for consultation on the criteria, and the judicial review has not been removed. The Government's application of the 1981 Act has been successful in general and most challenges have been resisted, although there will always be technicalities.

Unless the wording is clear--this applies to any legislation--it is an invitation to people who want to quibble about its interpretation and meaning. There is always someone who will do that. We want to bring the disease under control in the national interest and it is not reasonable to put into such measures wording that is so complex, bureaucratic and difficult that it becomes almost impossible to react to disease control. I do not believe that there is any disagreement in the Committee that if we intend to use the measures we must do so quickly and effectively.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

With reference to amendment No. 86, will the Minister confirm that foot and mouth is an airborne disease? It certainly was in 1967. I do not know of any holding that can be made secure from wildlife--unless the hon. Member for Leominster (Mr. Wiggin) is right and it can be made airtight--which could be a contributory factor in the spread of foot and mouth. The amendment would be difficult to enforce if it were taken to mean what it says. Such holdings would be exempt from action.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

My hon. Friend is absolutely right in his interpretation. The amendment would be almost impossible to operate on the basis of the wording. It would limit the slaughter provisions, significantly undermining their value in the prevention of disease spread. It is not right to say that there is no opportunity to argue against reasonable proportionate culling because there will be an opportunity to make reasonable representations. That is the position now and it will remain so under the Bill. We are not trying to take that away.

Amendment No. 2 would remove those animals that are suspected of carrying FMD from the categories of animals that are already immaterial. The amendment is unclear, because it simply subtracts from a negative without putting any positive requirements on the Minister instead.

Amendment No. 3 would deem immaterial to any decision to use wider slaughter powers animals that have been in contact with people who have been or are suspected of having been in contact with animals affected by foot and mouth. Making such animals immaterial would have little if any effect, and I do not understand the point.

The other amendments in this group are linked to the general theme. The issue is balance, as the hon. Member for South-East Cornwall rightly stated. Amendment No. 37 could introduce a delay in slaughter, which would have significant implications for disease control. That would be unacceptable. I come back to the point that any decision to cull would be proportionate, based on sound veterinary judgment, and explained to the farmer by the local veterinary inspector. The farmer would have the opportunity to ask the district veterinary manager to review the decision. One vet would go to the farm to explain why it was thought necessary to cull, and if the farmer did not accept that, he could then appeal to the district veterinary manager. That appeal process will be available.

We are trying to provide options for disease control, not policies cast in stone. Speed and flexibility are necessary in the application of any culling policy, should it be decided that that has a role to play in any future outbreak. I am not against the reasoning behind the amendments, particularly if animals can be kept in a biosecure environment. That would be very difficult, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) said, but there could be exemptions for them, as there were exemptions during the present outbreak. We can certainly think about that for the future. However, the amendments in this group would cripple the Bill and make it impossible to operate the provisions quickly and effectively.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

It is great pleasure, Mr. Conway, to see you in the Chair this afternoon. I wonder whether the Clerks told you that the first printing error was spotted by me and the second was spotted by the hon. Member for South-East Cornwall. If a third is found, the Committee has decided that you will buy the person who finds it a bottle of champagne. Was that made clear to you? Ouch.

The debate has been interesting and wide ranging, and I suspect that the Minister has been rocked back on his heels a little by the contributions from this side of the Committee. He hasbeen at pains throughout to say that the matter is one of balance, that the Government have the right balance in the Bill and that it is essential that the extra sweeping powers should be introduced just in case. I have great difficulty with that position because I believe that the Bill is too one-sided.

The Minister said that the first vet who inspects the farm and the stock can make reasonable representations about the risk assessment and that the farmer can then appeal to the district veterinary manager. However, the farmer has nowhere to go after that. The decision is made by a member of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, albeit a veterinary surgeon, and no meaningful appeal is available. I do not believe that many farmers want to stop slaughter when they know that a cull would stop the disease spreading. They would not want to stand in the Ministry's way. However, there are occasions when they would, and we discussed examples of that earlier, so I shall not repeat them.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

This is a point that we might slide past, but it is at the core of some of the arguments. There are people who think of foot and mouth as an unimportant disease--this has been put to me personally--and would allow it to pass through their herd or flock. What action is both fair and reasonable in such circumstances?

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

I do not question the integrity of the hon. Gentleman, but that must be a unique case. Never has a farmer expressed such a view to me. Labour Members may have had that experience; that is fair do's. However, the point is that there must be a reasonable right of appeal. It may have to be quick, but it should not be summary justice.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

The courts, then.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

I do not see why a system could not be arrived at, but I am not a lawyer and I may need to be rescued by one of my hon. Friends. If the Government provided for a meaningful appeal within, say, 12 hours, why could not special courts sit or special arrangements be made so that farmers and others who have legitimate reasons to stand against a decision--

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

What puzzles me—I am thinking aloud—about the insistence on going to court is the idea that courts are somehow better than vets. Generally, the legal profession will listen to the veterinary argument, which influences them a great deal. There has not been much evidence of courts overturning the views of the vets working on behalf of the Department. An appeal process dealing with local issues and local circumstances, based on veterinary advice, is surely better than dragging everything through the courts, which does not guarantee that individuals will get the desired outcome.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

No indeed, but to look at the number of cases that have gone to court, and the number of cases that the Ministers' Department has withdrawn, is to open a can of worms.

The Minister's reassurances have been cold comfort to most people. The way in which local vets react will set the tone of the policy to be implemented. Most people want the whole system to be much more transparent. The Minister said that the powers in the Bill might not need to be used. That reinforces our earlier point that it would have been better for the Government not to have rushed into legislation in a headstrong way, but to have waited for the reports and recommendations of their inquiries. We would then have known that legislation was being introduced with the facts before us.

The amendments, to which many hon. Members have spoken, list the several material reasons for resisting this part of the Bill. The wide-sweeping powers will be a hostage to fortune in the future and are at the discretion of a future Minister. We need more clarity and transparency of the Government's aims. We cannot go along with the Minister's line at this stage, and we shall press the amendments to a vote.

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

We have had an interesting, informative debate. We divide on what is implicit and explicit, and the protections that we feel are needed.

We have highlighted the fact that, if decisions are to be made locally, farm by farm—such local decision-making was often lacking in the past—we will rely on local independent vets and veterinary managers. I foresee some problems with the different interpretations of wide-ranging legislation that might exist in different places. Any subsequent judicial review might quote precedents from places up and down the country.

An argument against the Minister's remarks that the appeals will be fair—we shall discuss it again later—is that there is no real right of representation. Farmers will find themselves at a distinct disadvantage in trying to pursue their cases without representation or support. Overall, the differences and the seriousness of the issues are such that we cannot go along with the current wording, so I am pleased that the amendments are being pressed to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 7, Noes 9.

Bill Wiggin (Conservative, Leominster)

I beg to move amendment No. 22, in page 1, line 20, at end insert—

``(1B)In applying sub paragraph (1A)(c) above, there must be provision for the disposal of the carcasses within 48 hours of slaughter or in accordance with the requirements of the National Contingency Plan.''

Derek Conway (Conservative, Old Bexley and Sidcup)

With this is will be convenient to take amendment No. 23, in page 2, line 4, after `of,' insert `infectious'.

Bill Wiggin (Conservative, Leominster)

I shall begin by painting a nightmare scenario. Let us imagine that in a few years time—one day, perhaps—I am the Minister—[Interruption.] It gets worse: there is an outbreak of foot and mouth in Scunthorpe. ``What should I do?'' I ask, holding up my hands up in despair to my civil servants. ``Oh, don't worry, Mr. Wiggin'' they reply, ``You can slaughter just about everything.'' I say, ``Oh, thank you very much. I remember when that Bill was passed—what luck! Is there anything else I can do?'' They say, ``It would be a mistake to hesitate when speed is so important in handling this type of outbreak.'' And I reply, ``Of course, it would. Start killing at once.''

For a balance of rights and compassion to be struck, we must build in brakes and a method of slowing down the decision-making process so that someone who has not been here today would not react in the way that I might by beginning to cull immediately. The reason why the two amendments are so important is that they give the Minister the opportunity to pause for thought and consider his options besides culling, such as vaccination. We need to see more amendments that provide for the option of vaccination, which was one of the Minister's considerations when he drafted the Bill. Labour Members will have been looking forward to the opportunity to vaccinate, so that we may not need to begin the culling process at all.

I am sure we all remember that the foot and mouth crisis got worse and worse until the Army was brought in, which is why the 48-hour window in the amendment is crucial. Unless we take steps, such as those in the amendment, we will again see lorries dripping with blood and gore trundling down country lanes, transporting carcases and spreading the disease. If we can amend the Bill so that that scenario is never on our televisions in future, we shall have done our job well. None of us enjoyed seeing huge numbers of carcases put in landfill sites, and we all felt horror at the sight of great JCB machines dropping dead cows into holes and the subsequent burning carcases. In Bromyard in my constituency, many residents complained about the smell of burning flesh.

Anything that we can do to give the Minister pause for thought before beginning a cull of such magnitude again is worthy of inclusion in the Bill. In Winferton in my constituency, carcases lay rotting in the farmyard for nine days. Earlier, the Minister and I crossed swords on the spread of the virus, and I was grateful for his words of wisdom about the fact that the virus ceases to be spread provided that no bone marrow is present once the animal is dead. However, it is possible for carcases in which bone marrow is present to be nibbled at by foxes and crows and for the disease to spread.

Roger Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Is the hon. Gentleman saying that carcases should be disposed of within 48 hours of slaughter or that there should be a plan on the disposal of carcases in 48 hours?

Bill Wiggin (Conservative, Leominster)

The most important thing is that slaughter does not begin unless the carcases can be disposed of in 48 hours, or a comprehensive plan can be put together. There must not be a motorway of time.

Diana Organ (Labour, Forest of Dean)

There are many lessons to be learned from the outbreak of foot and mouth during the spring and summer, but we know that the quickest way to eradicate the disease is early slaughter. The hon. Gentleman seems to suggest that there should not be slaughter unless carcases can be disposed of within 48 hours. We all regretted the build-up of carcases lying around for nine days, but we were aiming for as quick a slaughter as possible from the time of either diagnosis or the start of the contiguous cull—within either 24 or 48 hours. I am concerned that his slightly different proposal would delay slaughter and therefore might aid spread of the disease. Can he clarify that?

Bill Wiggin (Conservative, Leominster)

I am extremely grateful to the hon. Lady for bringing that matter to the forefront of the argument, because that is exactly what we are not talking about.

Huw Edwards (Labour, Monmouth)

It is what the hon. Gentleman just said.

Bill Wiggin (Conservative, Leominster)

Well, I appreciate that, so I am grateful for the opportunity to clarify.

When the current outbreak began, culling was the only option. Technology has moved on considerably since then. It is now possible to blood-test almost on farm and have the results immediately. The Bill will not be fundamental to the complete eradication of the disease at the moment—it is in abeyance now. In the future, we must use the technology available, as it comes out, and not react, as the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Diana Organ) said, by culling immediately. That is what I am getting at.

If we stick exactly to the Bill as worded, we will have to cull whether or not the technology to vaccinate exists. Not to do so would be to fail to take advantage of the legitimate process that has been made available, and that might not be the speediest and most effective way of dealing with the disease. However, we want to build in an amendment that allows the Minister to think first before culling—the Bill is fundamentally about thinking. If there is an opportunity to explore vaccination, it does not have to take 48 hours or even half an hour. But if we do not allow that to be part of the thinking process, we will not have done our job.

Diana Organ (Labour, Forest of Dean)

The hon. Gentleman suggests that there may be other methods of eradicating the disease. Culling has always been the policy here and elsewhere. Does he agree that considering vaccination moves us on to a completely different argument, because the country would lose its disease-free status? Vaccination does not stop the disease; it only masks it and allows it to carry on.

Bill Wiggin (Conservative, Leominster)

It is vital that we clarify the point. I agree that the value of our export market is a factor and that, historically, culling has worked. However, it has not worked especially well. Five million animals is not a small number; it is an horrendous statistic. Eradication of the disease worked considerably better in Holland, where they did vaccinate. It is wrong simply to say, ``Culling works, so it is what we must do and there is no alternative.'' That is definitely not the case, as the Dutch case shows.

David Drew (Labour/Co-operative, Stroud)

If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I shall pick him up on that matter and then go on to the point that I wanted to raise.

The Dutch taught us something about vaccination. There were particular reasons why they vaccinated, but after independent, careful consideration, they subsequently decided to cull. The vaccination was, in a sense, irrelevant. It was a firebreak.

My main point is to ask the hon. Gentleman to define what he means by a national contingency plan, because I am confused about it. The recent crisis was a series of localised outbreaks rather than one national outbreak.

Bill Wiggin (Conservative, Leominster)

Let me deal first with the Dutch situation. Isolating the case and following that by vaccination and then by slaughter struck me as a more effective and humane way in which to deal with this kind of outbreak. That method was impossible in this country because of the widespread nature of the viral outbreaks. However, that does not mean that we should not explore the Dutch method in future.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

Does my hon. Friend recall the big conference in Downing street at which, we are reliably informed, the Government had decided to go down the vaccination route? Even Lord Haskins, who advises the Government on agricultural matters in another place, said that as far as he was concerned they were going to go out and vaccinate. That was stopped because of meat exports and the National Farmers Union, which did not agree with the policy. Thus the Government were about to introduce a policy of vaccination and then backed away from it. They are sponsoring a conference in Belgium next week, but they do not have a policy if the situation arose again.

Bill Wiggin (Conservative, Leominster)

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's intervention, but I should like to return to the national contingency plan, which is something that every Government have on every contingency. The Secretary of State for Transport, Local Government and the Regions explained the position on Railtrack by stating that his contingency plan was in place in August. As a new and trusting Member, I am sure that the Government have a contingency plan for any future outbreak of foot and mouth. A fortnight ago at Prime Minister's Question Time, the Deputy Prime Minister was at great pains to point out that the Government are the Government, and the Opposition do not have to answer the questions. He took a great deal of trouble to explain the size of the Government's election victory. On that basis, I do not have to explain the national contingency plan. Hopefully, one day I shall be elected as a Government Member. [Interruption.] Unlike my predecessor, I shall not change sides.

Colin Breed (Liberal Democrat, South East Cornwall)

Do I take it that the hon. Gentleman will be here tomorrow to support the Age Equality Commission Bill to ensure that he will not be moved out because of his age?

Derek Conway (Conservative, Old Bexley and Sidcup)

Order. I am sure the hon. Gentleman is far too young.

Bill Wiggin (Conservative, Leominster)

I am more likely to be culled.

Every effort was made to cull our way back into our valuable export market. The amendment would mean that we could cut down on television images of dead cows and sheep. We could help our market rather than knocking it, which would help us sell our meat abroad. Nobody who was hoping to sell food abroad welcomed the horrendous sights on the television. I wonder whether the Northumberland report is propping open a door somewhere in a Ministry.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

I read it on the train this morning.

Bill Wiggin (Conservative, Leominster)

Tremendous. The Northumberland report is a good example of how times change, and many of my constituents have told me that it was a shame that the Government did not follow its recommendations. That the Minister reads it on the train every day is a good example of why we must make sure that we build into our legislation the opportunity to move forward as technology changes, which brings me back to considering vaccination before thinking about culling.

I hope that the Committee will vote to support the amendment, which would change the tone of the Bill. It would introduce an element of compassion, but would still allow the speedy response required to beat the disease. It would give the Minister more options and it would reflect what people want: the knowledge that he has the opportunity to think before he acts. Most important of all, the vile images that we saw on our television screens, the devastation caused by a mass cull, the misery of farmers who watched their stock being slaughtered and the horrendous implications for our tourism industry might not be repeated. If we do not have to start killing from the moment disease breaks out, we might see a change for the better in the countryside.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

Amendments Nos. 22 and 23, which seek to address errors and omissions resulting from what I am sure was an oversight on the Government's part, are in fact quite helpful to the Government. All of us, and certainly those in my constituency, experienced the horror of slaughtered animals that were not disposed of for a very long time. As my hon. Friend the Member for Leominster pointed out, if the amendments are accepted, veterinarians will be able to slaughter only if they have the wherewithal to dispose of carcases within 48 hours. That is not only reasonable but highly desirable, and I would hope that quick disposal within a reasonable time limit of 48 hours was an aim that the Government shared. Indeed, they could have included such a provision in the Bill, but they failed to do so.

One assumes that the national contingency plan has picked up on the problems of delayed disposal and disposal options. It appears that the Government might advocate a policy of vaccination in the near future, and amendment No. 23 offers the further option of vaccination where there is delay beyond 48 hours. That is wholly sensible, and the Government should consider the proposal very carefully.

Earlier—I am sorry that you were not here at the time, Mr. Conway—I promised the Committee that from time to time I would dip into that well-known book ``Servants of the People'', by Mr. Andrew Rawnsley. I want to remind the Committee of the conditions in which Phoenix the calf appeared on our television screens.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

This is the Rawnsley interpretation.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

It is up to the Minister to correct it if necessary, and if it is wrong I shall write to Mr. Rawnsley. [Laughter.] This is nothing to laugh at—it is a very sad story. According to Mr. Rawnsley:

``The slaughtermen arrived to kill her mother and the rest of the cattle on a Devon farm five days after Phoenix was born. The carcasses were left behind closed doors pending disposal, a scene typical across the country. Five days later, the corpses by then putrefying, more men from the ministry arrived to spray the shed with disinfectant.''

Note that they did not remove the carcases; they simply sprayed them with disinfectant. Mr. Rawnsley continues:

``Amidst the stinking carnage, Phoenix rose from her mother's side and walked towards them, mooing.''

The rest is history, as they say.

The point is that that was not an untypical scene on many Devon farms. As the Minister will know, not all the animals were behind closed doors. We had the unedifying sight, and risk, of animals lying in open fields for longer than five days. The Government will want to deal with the issue of disposal immediately after slaughter, and I hope that the national contingency plan will explain how the Government intend to do so. These are not easy options. My hon. Friend the Member for Leominster mentioned the problem of carcases going into landfill, and it would be interesting to know whether the Government have identified sites other than landfill in which to bury carcases.

In the Mercer report's preliminary conclusions, Devon county council expressed great concern about large-scale burials and using large-scale pyres. The report states:

``We find that large-scale pyres should never be used again''.

I should have hoped that the Government took that into account before legislating. Presumably it is covered by the national contingency plan. However, whatever their preferred options and whatever is in the contingency plan, including the option of vaccination, there may well be a delay in disposal.

The amendments contain pragmatic proposals, and I hope that the Minister will consider accepting them in the spirit in which they were tabled. He should recognise that, if there are no guarantees in relation to widespread culling—for which he is taking powers—practical measures to dispose of animals must automatically follow if we are not to go through the same experience again.

Charlotte Atkins (Labour, Staffordshire Moorlands)

Does the hon. Lady support Blue Circle Cement's proposal that instead of using its chipped tyres as an alternative fuel it should use carcasses? I assume that the fact that they are burned at 1,400 deg would overcome local residents' concerns.

Angela Browning (Conservative, Tiverton and Honiton)

That may be a good suggestion, but I am not in a position to judge. That sort of issue would be raised in the results of a proper inquiry, and we could then make a valid decision. If there had been a proper inquiry or the Minister's own inquiry had reported before the Bill was introduced, we would have had a much better view of what is and what is not an acceptable way to proceed next time. At the heart of one of the complaints about the Bill is the fact that it was introduced before such an analysis had been properly made and the conclusions put into the public domain. This is a premature Bill, and the hon. Lady's example illustrates that.

Roger Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

The Bill gives so many powers to the Minister and his Department that I am prone to support any amendment that would give them responsibilities and duties. If the thread running through amendment No. 22 is that the Minister has a duty or responsibility to dispose of carcasses within 48 hours, I would support that, although I cannot follow why it does not apply to new sub-paragraphs (1A)(a), (b) and (d) as well as (1A)(c). The disposal of carcases was one of the key issues that led to so much dissatisfaction during the outbreak.

Perhaps amendment No. 22 could have stipulated disposal within 48 hours or in accordance with the national contingency plan, whichever is the shorter. The national contingency plan caused many thousands of carcases, which may or may not have been infected, to be transported through my constituency and buried on top of a mountain, leading to the pollution of local inhabitants' water courses and certain rivers that are important for biodiversity. However, I understand that the national contingency plan is now a devolved matter and we will be moving towards a local contingency plan, so those problems will be eliminated.

Amendment No. 22 refers to the disposal of carcases within 48 hours and amendment No. 23 refers to slaughter within 48 hours. Whether we adopt a culling policy or a vaccinating policy for eliminating the disease, it must be done as quickly as possible. We should not delay if we decide on vaccination for animals that have been in contact with the disease or with other animals that have the disease, because that would mean that immunity would not have enough time to work and animals would display symptoms of the disease before the vaccination process was complete.

Although I can support certain elements of the two amendments, I cannot support the thinking that runs through them.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

It has been an interesting debate, and important issues have been raised about vaccination and quick disposal. I do not have any problem with the principles that have been raised, and the issues must be addressed. However, I do not think that we need to do that in the Bill, and it would make us, yet again, a hostage to fortune.

The hon. Member for Leominster gave us a nightmare scenario—indeed it was. However, anyone who holds a ministerial position has trusty civil servants at their side to advise them on what they can or cannot do in relation to proportionality, the law, and the other frameworks within which we have to operate. The hon. Gentleman must bear that in mind.

Slaughter is the most effective way of stopping virus production, for the reasons that I gave. As soon as the animal is dead, it stops producing the virus. The spread from the carcase is limited by the movement of infective materials. There can be scavenging, and the disease can be spread by the leaking of body fluids. That is why the Department's guidelines say that as soon as the animals have been slaughtered, they must be sprayed with a citric acid solution, which kills the virus and makes the carcases unattractive to predators. They are put off if carcases have been soaked in disinfectant. There are also guidelines on covering the carcases to keep predators off.

Ideally, we want to remove carcases as quickly as possible, but we must consider reality when facing an epidemic on the scale of the one that we have just had. There were practical problems such as getting enough leak-proof lorries and getting them on site. In parts of Devon, even once those lorries had been obtained, they would not go down the lanes because they were too big. Other vehicles had to be used there, and secure transfer stations had to be found, where there were, of course, disease risks. Such practical problems mean that an absolute commitment to a 48-hour target cannot be given. I do not dispute that that target is desirable. Of course we want to get the carcases removed as quickly as possible.

The amendment would give individuals the right to go for vaccination if the slaughter could not be effected in 48 hours. Again, that target is desirable but cannot always be guaranteed. The individual would have the right to demand vaccination, which might take place only on their farm, notwithstanding the interests of their neighbours or the fact that EU approval is needed to use vaccination. Someone using vaccination must also think carefully about how to apply it. At least 80 per cent. coverage of the area is needed to make it effective. Vaccination is not appropriate in all circumstances. When we discussed the contingency plan for vaccinating pig units, the practical difficulties, given the constant production of piglets and their movement from one unit to another—because of the nature of the pig pyramids—were horrendous.

I am not saying that some of those practical problems cannot be overcome. They will be dealt with in inquiries and in future contingency plans. The role of vaccination is serious, but not simple. Sometimes people think that it would solve all the problems of foot and mouth disease, but I regret to say that it would not. Vaccination is appropriate only in certain circumstances.

Richard Bacon (Conservative, South Norfolk)

The Minister said that he believed that the practical problems could be overcome. By enshrining the principle of doing things within 48 hours in the Bill, does not the amendment encourage the Government to focus on delivering slaughter in a reasonable time? Were not carcases left lying in fields for nine days and, in some parts of the country, longer because they legally could be?

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

That is true, but although I am all for encouragement, I am against being paralysed, and that would be the effect of the amendments. Also, as I have said, one of them is illegal and could not be applied.

I am not saying that we should rule out speedy disposal and vaccination options. As I have said, the Bill does not preclude any particular approach; in fact, it strengthens powers for vaccination. We have the power to vaccinate now, subject to EU approval, but the Bill will strengthen any future vaccination or serology programmes. There is a range of measures, which I strongly commend to the Committee.

Phoenix the calf will be a great story in its own right. Far be it from me to offend Mr. Rawnsley, who I realise is a much greater threat than the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton in terms of this issue. However, although I accept that one cannot always believe what one reads in the newspapers, according to one report the owners of the farm disputed that Phoenix the calf was found in the pile of dead animals. They said that Phoenix was found wandering around and that it was a mystery how it had survived. Mystery or not, those were the circumstances of that particular case.

Vaccination and disposal are important issues. I take the points that have been made by Opposition Members. We need to address them, but we cannot do so through these amendments because they are technically flawed and would cripple the Bill.

Ann Winterton (Conservative, Congleton)

I was amused by the Minister's saying that Phoenix the calf is no mystery. Nor was there any mystery at the timing of the press release that hit the 9 o'clock or 10 o'clock news.

Elliot Morley (Labour, Scunthorpe)

Coincidence.

The rest of the debate is in Hansard.