Criminal Justice and Police Bill

Public Bill Committee, 13 February 2001.

Standing Committee F

Criminal Justice and Police Bill

Helen Clark (Labour, Peterborough)

On a point of order, Mr. Hood. I wish to draw the attention of the Committee to the events of last weekend, when more than 1,000 animal rights activists rampaged over four counties protesting about clients of Huntingdon Life Sciences and boasted to the Daily Mail that they were now organised like an army. Will you use your good offices to ensure that the Committee has adequate time to debate those parts of the Bill that will counter such urban terrorism?

Jimmy Hood (Labour, Clydesdale)

I thank the hon. Lady for her point of order. She will be aware that, as always, all members of the Committee will receive adequate time to debate such matters. If she catches my eye when they are being discussed, I shall be only too pleased to call her to speak.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

On a point of order, Mr. Hood. It would be extremely helpful if the Committee received information from the Minister about three particular matters at an early stage. Has he told you when we may receive the details about the size of the penalty notices under clause 3, and information about the important guidance under clause 6 and the draft new clauses that deal with the Huntingdon Life Sciences issues, to which the hon. Lady referred?

Jimmy Hood (Labour, Clydesdale)

The Minister has not such discussions with me. If he had, I would have advised the Committee of them. Clause 2 Penalty notices

Clause 2 - Penalty notices

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

I beg to move amendment No. 15, in page 3, line 11, at end insert—

`(6)(a) Any person who, in connection with the giving of a penalty notice by a constable under this section, knowingly or recklessly gives that constable relevant information which is false in any material particular shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

(b) In this subsection, ``relevant information'' means the name, address and date of birth of the person to whom the penalty notice is to be given.'.

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Hood. At our first sitting, when welcoming Mr. Gale to the Chair, we said that we knew that you, too, would deal with us firmly but in your usual charming and pleasant manner.

The amendment would create an offence of giving false particulars to an officer when a fixed penalty notice is being issued. Given the range of offences in clause 1, there must be a risk that the accused will give false particulars to the officer, such as the wrong address, date of birth and name. That already happens in public disorder incidents. The amendment is designed to deter such behaviour. It is difficult to identify individuals out on the street. The Justices' Clerks Society said that fixed penalties for motoring offences work well because the vehicle number plate and the driver's licence identify the offender. Those advantages would not apply with fixed penalty notices. It would be helpful to have the Minister's view on the likely risk of false details being given and the steps that he thinks should be in place to avoid that happening.

The Association of Chief Police Officers has also expressed worries about notices being issued in the street. It fears that offenders would be unlikely to co-operate with the police in such circumstances. We have only to consider the nature of the penalty offences to realise the risks of drunk, violent offenders being asked to co-operate and give certain details. Even if the police receive details from them, the question arises whether such information is reliable. Unless the offender is quiet and sober, he will have to be taken to the police station—but if he is quiet and sober, he is unlikely to have committed an offence and been served with a fixed penalty notice. How could a police officer rely on the details that a person has given in the street without checking them at the police station?

In reply to the consultation, Sir Edward Crew, chief constable of West Midlands police, said:

``Without doubt the most significant area of concern expressed by colleagues was that the issue of Fixed Penalty Notices, as shown in the consultation paper, would mainly take place on the street. In view of the nature of offences likely to be covered by the . . . system, it seems more appropriate and likely that suspects would be arrested, and the FPN issued in custody as an alternative form of disposal. It would be inappropriate and highly unlikely, for example, that officers should issue tickets to those either drunk, violent, or both. Such offenders may not understand the consequences of a Fixed Penalty Notice and would be unlikely to co-operate with the officer or comply with the payment of the ticket once issued.''

The consultation paper also lacks detail about the custody process.

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

The Criminal Bar Association expressed similar anxieties. As we said in the first sitting, the association's response to the Government's proposals emphasised encapsulating the problem that disorderly drunks are, by definition, not in a fit state to be served with a legal document that has penal consequences.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

That is correct. The Parliamentary Secretary almost conceded that serving a fixed penalty notice on someone who was obviously drunk or not in a quiet and sober condition would be impossible.

Stephen Ladyman (Labour, South Thanet)

The Opposition seem determined to push a one-size-fits-all approach for the police. The clause is intended to give the police choices. If the policeman is satisfied about the details given and the ability of the person involved to understand what is happening, he will issue a standard penalty. If not, he will take the person to the police station. Why are the Opposition against giving the police choice?

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

If the Opposition were making the point without support, I would have some sympathy with the hon. Gentleman and it might be considered simply as part of the ebb and flow of party political debate. However, we are probing the Government and our case is that the ACPO, which is probably one of the most expert bodies on policing, says that offenders will be unlikely to co-operate with the officer involved.

The Opposition are not being unreasonable in suggesting that false details are a risk. Indeed, that point has also been made by the Justices' Clerks Society, which says that the matter is different in that context from motoring offences. The Police Federation itself is worried about the issue and wants Government guidance on what offences and incidents should be covered. Sadly, because the Bill is being rushed through the House at short notice and is being presented as a great plank of Government policy, even though little thought has gone into it, we do not have the draft guidance that the Minister himself has said three or four times is essential to understanding the provisions.

It is not entirely fair to suggest that this is a baseless attack. Our amendments are rooted in the expertise of the police service from top to bottom and we hope to receive answers that satisfy us. I do not believe that the hon. Member for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) would seriously suggest that a drunken youth committing threatening behaviour or a youth found drunk in the street is unlikely to say that he is called Mickey Mouse and lives at an address made famous by Tony Hancock. People do that already. We need a practical way of tackling that problem and the offence suggested in the amendment is one such way. We all wait with bated breath to hear what the Minister says about issuing notices on the street, given the real risk of false particulars being offered.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

I am happy to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Hood—for the first time, I believe.

I apologise to the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) for not having been here for the first few moments, but I anticipated his line of attack and am sympathetic to it, as he would expect. He is attempting to deal with what is the practical issue for most of the offences listed in the Bill. He is confronting the reality of life on the street, which we discussed last week, which is that most people confronted with an officer walking toward them would not hang around to receive a fixed penalty notice—they would scarper and would certainly not give their name. As I said last week, if I were in that situation I would certainly scarper and not give my name. Nobody is asking to be nicked and done; that is just not the real world.

Therefore, although I am sympathetic to the proposal, it compounds an unsatisfactory procedure with another unrealistic offence. We will get more offences on the statute book that are unlikely ever to achieve anything. Trying to find and then prosecute people who have no money and who are unlikely to be compliant strikes me as unsatisfactory. It would be far better to do as was implied both in suggestions from some police organisations and in our debate last week: not to give the police the choices for which the hon. Member for South Thanet was arguing, but to provide for fixed penalty notices to be issued at the police station. Pretty well all the offences are ones where people are likely to be antagonistic and reluctant to co-operate and give their name, but if the police manage to lay their fingers on someone's collar and get him into the police station there is a realistic chance of discovering who he is and giving him a fixed penalty notice.

Helen Clark (Labour, Peterborough)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree with the National Association of Probation Officers that the majority of misdemeanours involve not an officer on the spot apprehending someone committing a crime but other individuals reporting information to the police? We should not continually talk about officers on the street nabbing people committing crime. Does he agree that we need to build into the process provisions to ensure that people are not reported on in their absence and discriminated against? NAPO mentions particular groups—gay men, black people and Irish people—who are already at risk. Should we not build in a provision to ensure that discrimination is not enshrined but removed?

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

The hon. Lady makes a good point, which is certainly supported by the professional body to which she refers, and is an argument in favour of having the procedure dealt with at the police station. It would be even more nonsensical for people to be served with a fixed penalty notice on the street on the basis of information, without any direct police observation of the offence. There are many hoax calls; youngsters will often suggest that someone else is creating trouble, and some will willingly allow others to be caught for serious crimes. The police regularly receive false information on who committed an offence.

The proper conclusion is that if we are to have fixed penalties, they should be imposed either where the vehicle, bicycle, litter or dog poo is—where there is something visible, which can be linked to an individual—or they should not be served in the street. The process should at least be carried out in the police station, where there are proper control procedures and there is not the same risk of getting the person or the procedure wrong.

Stephen Ladyman (Labour, South Thanet)

I have no doubt that most penalty tickets will be issued at the police station, as the police will decide that that is the only sensible thing to do. There will be circumstances, however, in which the policeman recognises the individual and it is appropriate to administer the fixed penalty ticket on the street there and then—the modern equivalent of a clip round the ear. Why should we not give the police that choice when it is appropriate?

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

Because we have not piloted the scheme; most of the offences are not conducive to it; it has the wrong bureaucratic procedure following it; justice should be administered in the courts, not on the street; and it is disadvantageous to people on low incomes and of low intelligence and ability—all the reasons that I have used to argue against the process as a whole. I do not want the police, on an unpiloted, untested and untried scheme, to have that new power. They do not need it, it would not help them, and, by and large, it provides additional opportunities for bureaucracy. It puts the cart before the horse—the whole thing is the wrong way round.

The presumption should be that there would be a trial of the case, if there is a charge, and normal due criminal process. I would be much more favourably disposed to a system that then allowed people to opt for fixed penalty options. If the hon. Gentleman were charged, in the normal way, with being disorderly in the street, he would usually be taken to court. He could then ask for the matter to be dealt with by fixed penalty notice and fine. That would be much quicker and shorter, but it should be at his instigation, not that of the police.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

What the hon. Gentleman says about most fixed penalty notices being dished out at the police station is of eminently good sense. It is supported by the police organisations, and is broadly the purpose of the clause. None the less, the amendment is not about fixed penalty notices dished out at the police station, as by and large people will by then be sober and giving the correct information. It is about penalty notices dished out on the spot in the middle of the night. The Prime Minister, memorably, said:

``There should be on-the-spot fines for those people who engage in disorderly conduct . . . summary justice, on the spot, is the essence of the proposal.''—[Official Report, 5 July 2000; Vol. 353, c. 323.]

We consider that a bad principle, but that is what we are discussing. Under the amendment, if an on-the-spot fine were given to a drunkard the night before, and he gave false information to the police, he would be criminally liable.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

I understand that, but it compounds the problem. If the hon. Gentleman had had a few too many, and was going home through the middle of Chippenham on a Friday night—which I am sure has not happened once in his whole career—he might not be overly keen, for all the reasons given, and not least because he is the constituency Member, to volunteer his correct name. There are many examples of people, in high office and low, who do not immediately volunteer their correct name. If a person is pissed—let us be crude and straight about this—he is much less likely to volunteer his correct name. He is likely to see it as a bit of a laugh and a joke and try to get out of it in all sorts of ways. If he is 18 and pissed, he would not normally volunteer his correct name. If a person is extremely pissed, he is probably incapable of giving his address.

The reality is that this species of criminal procedure is likely to be targeted on people who probably do not have much money, or who are likely to be disadvantaged. Those are the people who are likely to be charged with a further offence, making them more and more criminal, although the purpose of the fixed penalty notice is that it is not a criminal but a civil penalty procedure. The hon. Gentleman's perfectly reasonable suggestion for perfectly reasonable people behaving in a perfectly reasonable way when they are stone cold sober would make them criminals if they refused to give their name and address, which refusing to accept the fixed penalty notice would not do. I understand his point of view, but it will make a bad position eminently worse, and more people will have criminal records The Government's aim seems to be that lots of people should have criminal records and that everyone's DNA samples should be kept. That is not my aim: I want fewer people with criminal records and as many people as possible to be disposed of in a way that does not involve the criminal justice system.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

An example has sprung to mind, although I give it hesitantly. There was a well-known case of a young drunken yob being arrested not so long ago in Leicester Square, who gave his name as Euan Cameron and failed to give his last name. That is a good example of the kind of thing that we have in mind.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

The hon. Gentleman gave the example that I assume we all had in mind. I am sure that Euan Blair is a perfectly decent young bloke, who is growing up in difficult circumstances, as his father is the Prime Minister and his mother is also well known. It must be dire for him—the poor bloke's liberty must be restricted more than anyone else's in the country. I am sorry for him and wish him all the best, and do not blame him in the slightest for not wanting to own up to who he was. As it happens, he is under 18, but I would not blame him for making the same decision if he were over 18, just as I would not blame Prince William if he went out on a stag night while he was at St. Andrews—should the law apply in Scotland—and did not want to own up to who he was. I would not want to do so myself, and most sane, sober people, waking up in the morning, would not think that it was a good idea.

We should not make laws for a ridiculous, authoritarian, unbelieving, unreal world. We should concentrate on useful proposals for real reform of the criminal justice system, and not entertain such ridiculous ideas, which are drawn from the speech made by the Prime Minister when he tried to think up two easy, good ideas before breakfast.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

Listening to the hon. Gentleman, I am reminded of what the Prime Minister said. He said:

``Bizarrely, as the law stands, the police have the power in Britain to levy on-the-spot fines for cycling on the pavement and dog fouling. And yet they have to deal with drunks who get offensive and loutish and often can do nothing about it without a long, expensive process''.

Does the hon. Gentleman think that handing out these notices is at all akin to the process for cyclists on pavements and dog fouling? Is there not an essential difference between the type of offence and the sort of situation in which those notices would be given? Most people who cycle on pavements and do dog fouling—or, at least, their dogs do it—are not necessarily drunk, angry and in a confrontational frame of mind.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

I agree entirely. We are approaching the issue in the wrong way. People are often drunk on the step of my constituency office in Bermondsey, because it is in a building owned by the Methodist Church, which runs various good projects that include a weekly Alcoholics Anonymous session. Dealing with a bloke curled up with his cans of lager by giving him a fixed penalty notice would be barmy. One needs to deal with his alcohol problem, not give him a fine.

Those who are regular offenders in the street and drink too much cannot be dealt with by such notices. They would simply build up a dialogue with the law, which is not helpful to anyone and does not deal with the causes of crime and misbehaviour. I agree that we should identify the offences that can be dealt with properly through that process, such as offences connected to vehicles. Cars normally have number plates and are of a specific colour and model, and most people are on the list of the vehicle registration system, so they are easy to track down. That is not the case with the offences that we have been discussing.

The system lends itself to abuse and contains the risk that police would regularly target people if they did not like them. Most police officers are brilliant, but some are not, and I would be cautious about giving the police powers that allow them to pick on the same people all the time, without allowing those people the possibility of a fair hearing.

Helen Clark (Labour, Peterborough)

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, as with other topics that we discussed last week, we are perhaps in danger of falling prey to tunnel vision by interpreting the use of fixed penalty notices as a drunks charter? Especially with the age group that we are discussing, I have observed instances when I could put hand on heart and say that not a drop of alcohol has been touched, but disorderly and unsuitable behaviour has still occurred. A couple of days ago, I observed an incident of charging and harassment on the London underground that was in danger of causing a stoppage. Does he agree that we should widen our discussion from abuse of alcohol?

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

The hon. Lady is right: the offences are not only alcohol related. I wish that the Government had sat down with Conservative and Liberal Democrat spokespeople and others to decide which offences would reasonably fall into this category. I am not against the principle of fixed penalty notices for the right offences, but most of the offences in the Bill are not the right ones. It might be reasonable to have fixed penalty notices for people misbehaving on the underground, but if we apprehend people in enclosed spaces, there could be a risk of their overreacting. I want to have an intelligent debate on such matters, but until the Government are willing to engage in it, carte blanche agreement to a list of offences, most of which raise severe practical problems, is inappropriate.

I hope that this is intended as a probing amendment, but it proposes a road of no return. People would be issued with a fixed penalty notice, and if they then gave a wrong name or resisted receiving it, both of which would be entirely understandable, that would be a criminal offence. That would be going in completely the wrong direction, and the sooner we can reduce fixed penalty notices to what can be properly dealt with and reasonably managed after some piloting, the better.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I regard this as a probing amendment. I think that it highlights the dilemmas that surround the great extension of the use of fixed penalty notices. Obviously, to give people a fixed penalty notice, one needs their name and address, and especially in the cases of drunkenness and consumption of alcohol in a public place, there is a real risk that the police officer will be given false particulars. Plainly, without some check on that, officers will be left increasingly frustrated, and will use the power only in cases where they already know the name and address of an individual.

There is a real dilemma about whether we should add a further offence of giving a false name and address. I note that under section 5(2) of the Criminal Law Act 1967, it is an offence to waste police time or give false report. Does the Minister regard giving a false name and address in answer to a question to enable a constable to issue a fixed penalty notice as giving false report, or does that have to be at the initiative of the individual concerned, rather than in response to a request for information? If the provision has the wider meaning, an officer may be able to use it if a false name and address is given.

The irony of such action is that it would enable another fixed penalty notice to be issued at the same time. Let us suppose that we want to enable the police station to become a mini police court and avoid the whole aspect of court procedure. If we were wedded to such an idea, that would not be wholly stupid. If, at the time when a person was issued with a fixed penalty notice, he put up his hands and it was discovered that he gave a false name and address, it will cost him a further £40, instead of the matter being taken in front of the magistrates court.

It has been rightly pointed out that the Prime Minister started a large number of hares by his suggestions that culminated in the Bill. At present, it lacks something if it gives the officer no opportunity to respond to a person who gives a false name and address and to issue proceedings again for such action. Consequently, I am inclined to support the amendment. It is certainly helpful and rightly teases out the proper issues, but I shall listen carefully to the Minister before I decide what action to take.

Crispin Blunt (Conservative, Reigate)

Like my right hon. and learned Friend, I am inclined to support the amendment. I listened with care to the arguments of the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes). He went through the agonies of someone who regarded the fixed penalty notice regime in proper policing as a red herring. We debated the offences for which fixed penalty notices will be issued when we discussed clause 1. We now have to wrestle with making the system work. It will not work without there being serious consequences for those whose automatic reaction when faced with a fixed penalty notice is to run away or give a false name and address and who are, in effect, negating the system by taking the actions to which the hon. Gentleman referred.

For the system to work, which is a departure for the police in how they deal with minor misdemeanours, it will have to be backed up by serious penalties for those people who are subject to it and then obstruct it. The amendment would do that. My only worry is that it refers to

``a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.''

Let us consider the experience in Holland, which has acquired an enormous reputation as a liberal country. The Association of Chief Police Officers said that when people do not pay the fines for street trading in Amsterdam,

``Non payment of FPNs in Amsterdam is punishable by an automatic 3 day custodial sentence and whilst this may seem draconian, it is essential that a FPN system is supported by rigorous enforcement to ensure that FPNs continue to be an effective deterrent.''

We shall come to what happens in cases of non-payment when we debate clause 4. Failing to give one's correct name and address is the same as seeking to escape the system by providing the police with false information. There should be an explicit penalty for obstructing the process; that should be clear and associated with the legislation that we are passing on fixed penalty notices.

My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-East Bedfordshire (Sir N. Lyell) made a point about the link between giving false information to the police under other legislation. He is a lawyer but I am not, and I do not understand the detail of that point. I hope that the Minister will make it clear whether the legislation whereby people are deemed to commit an offence by failing to provide the police with proper information could be linked directly to these provisions. If there is no such link, or if there is any element of doubt about it, the penalty proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire should be in the Bill.

A level 3 fine might not be sufficient, however, because those who put their hands up to an offence punishable by a fixed penalty notice may thereby avoid the full panoply of a trial and criminal record. They should be subject to serious sanction if they muck about with the police. If people were not discouraged by the level 3 fine, they might waste police time by giving false information.

I hope that the Minister will accept the amendment or, if not, come back with a reworked version on Report.

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

I, too, welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Hood. Like the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey, I have not had the pleasure of serving on a Committee under your chairmanship before, but you were a distinguished leader of a parliamentary delegation to Gibraltar that I was on, so I know about your inspirational leadership.

I want to expound on the concerns expressed by the Criminal Bar Association. I declare my interest, as a member of the Bar. The association is worried about the implications of the matter, as are police officers at the sharp end.

[Mr Crispin Blunt in the Chair.]

I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Blunt.

I want briefly to quote from an interview given by Fred Broughton, the chairman of the Police Federation, during consultation on the proposals that led to these provisions. I should mention that Fred Broughton consults widely and represents all serving police officers at the sharp end. Of people who have been issued with fixed penalty notices when drunk, he said that

``the following day, they may dispute their behaviour and allege the police acted wrongly. They may try and plead not guilty or propose to plead not guilty, leaving the officer involved reliant on notes and statements from witnesses. The fixed penalty ticket may be an addition to the set of papers that have already been issued . . . we need to test the practicalities of what has been suggested''.

Fred Broughton then commented on the Government's whole range of proposals as contained in the original consultation document:

``Fixed penalty notices, etc, are not going to work when we are given a bogus name and address. People who are under the influence of drink and drugs sometimes don't start to speak sensibly until hours after they have been arrested. So issuing them may not be ideal until we have a good system of identification in place.''

The Police Federation—the officers at the sharp end—does not think that the measures will work, and the Criminal Bar Association has severe reservations. I have referred already to the association's concern about disorderly drunks, who are

``by definition not in a fit state to be served with a legal document with penal consequences.''

The association continues:

``Whether the drunkenness is public or private, whether it is associated with other criminal conduct or not, it does not provide any sensible or fair opportunity for the issue of a penal Notice. Most parking tickets etc are not issued to anyone in person. When they are served personally—

in other words, when the owner of the car happens to return as the traffic warden or police officer is issuing the ticket—

``there is occasional unpleasantness for the issuer.''

We are all familiar with reports in the press of serious altercations between owners of vehicles and traffic wardens or police officers—it has been called ``parking rage''. Serious violence has been inflicted on traffic wardens, which has led to criminal prosecutions. As my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire says, fixed penalty tickets work for most motorists, because most are law abiding and accept them. However, even under the current system serious offences of violence can occur to those who issue the tickets.

The Criminal Bar Association continues:

``Drunk and/or disorderly persons are unlikely to be alone or compliant. They are likely to be offending in public, often crowded places. Notices take some few minutes to write and this is so even for a traffic warden who does not have to establish the identity of an individual in difficult circumstances.''

My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire made the point that the police and traffic wardens can check the identity of the offender through the registration number or on the police national computer. Under the Government's proposals, an officer would have to check the identity on the spot. The Criminal Bar Association says:

``The issuing of a Notice might well aggravate a situation requiring fast action such as the speedy removal of offenders from a scene. This consideration is relevant to two stated aims of the scheme, namely to put an immediate stop to the conduct and to save police time''.

That is contained in the Government's consultation document. The association says:

``It would be unfortunate if the issuing of a Notice in itself created a situation in which further offences were committed and/or brought about further breaches of the peace.''

That brings us back to the relevant points raised by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey. I would observe that it might be better if his constituency office were in a different place, given all the problems that he has described. Public drunkenness always contains the possibility of further offences, and one would not want the issuing of a notice to aggravate the position further.

The association asks:

``What are the consequences to be if a Notice is issued but subsequently ignored? . . . it is common knowledge that in some areas at some times only a percentage of parking tickets have been enforced. No doubt this was as a result of some form of cost/benefit or general resource problems. Non-enforcement of parking tickets is one thing. A scheme carrying with it any possibility of non-enforcement of Notices for criminal behaviour is quite another . . . Even assuming sobriety and compliance, how exactly are an individual's details to be verified in the street? It is not difficult to envisage a degree of farce, which will be compounded if the officer has to verify whether the individual has had any previous Notices . . . The individual would have to be warned of the consequences of non-provision of details. If the alternative is an arrest, there may well be issues arising by virtue of the Human Rights Act 1998.''

We believe that the Government have woefully underestimated the cost of implementation of the Human Rights Act 1998. We may return to the substantive issue of the power of arrest in a later debate.

David Lock (Labour, Wyre Forest)

The hon. Gentleman has frequently alleged that the Government the Government underestimated the cost of the implementation of the Human Rights Act. To allow us to understand whether that is political rhetoric or something of substance, will he tell us his estimate of the likely true cost, if it is not the same as the Government's? Does he have evidence of the cost being in excess of the Government's estimate? As he knows, the evidence to date is that the additional work in the courts is substantially lower than we estimated.

[Mr. Jimmy Hood in the Chair]

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

I know that you will stop me if I stray too far beyond the terms of the amendment, Mr. Hood. However, I must try to give one answer with which the Minister will be familiar. I and my hon. Friends have said repeatedly during Question Time in the Chamber that the Government certainly did not incorporate in their predictions the huge apparent cost of the modification of a huge number of magistrates courts. Home Office officials are suggesting to local magistrates court committees that, because of the implementation of the Human Rights Act 1998, there will have to be a huge programme of works. It is suggested that there is something degrading about an offender in custody's being seen by members of the public. That has been highlighted in the national press, and has been raised on several occasions by my hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr. Paterson). That is one example, of which I could give hundreds, but, Mr. Hood, you would not want me to take up the Committee's time in doing so.

This is a problem that the Government have created. The Prime Minister's obsession with so-called eye-catching initiatives has ended up as a half-baked scheme that is not so much eye-catching as eyewash.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

Forty-six minutes into this morning's debate, I, too, welcome you, Mr. Hood, as Chairman of the Committee. You have already had a brief summary of the way in which our business is being conducted. I want to respond to several points.

The opposition in principle to the proposals has been set out most clearly by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey. I want to respond to his point about consultation. If I may draw the Committee's attention to the matter, we published a consultation document in September 2000. Paragraphs 9 and 10 of that consultation document answered the question of what offences involving disorder should be covered by the fixed penalty system, and listed them in detail. Paragraph 19 of that consultation document says:

``The Government would welcome comments on the following questions''.

It lists them again and gives the name and address of an official at the Home Office to whom details can be sent.

I have a list of organisations that responded. There were 111—which those of us from Norfolk refer to as a Nelson—including the main professional organisations to which reference has been made, a range of trade organisations, a range of police organisations, a range of legal organisations and a range of councils and probation services. It is a comprehensive list, but the Liberal Democrats do not feature in it. Why? I do not know. An open and public consultation took place, and the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey could have responded if he had thought it appropriate. He decided not to do so. The hon. Gentleman made it clear in the clause 1 stand part debate that he was against such penalties in principle. I was grateful that, in his intervention, the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) confirmed that he was also totally opposed in principle to such penalties. The official Opposition and Liberal Democrats voted against clause 1 stand part. The Opposition Whip, in his intervention, confirmed that the Opposition are in principle opposed to the use of the fixed penalty notice.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

As the Minister knows only too well, the Opposition have made it clear throughout that they are in favour of the principle. During the stand part debate, I made it clear that, in the event that the proposals with which we disagreed were voted down, we would table a new clause on Report to reinstate fixed penalty notices, but with the necessary safeguards.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I heard the hon. Gentleman, but Hansard will bear out that the Opposition Whip made it clear that he was opposed in principle to fixed penalty notices.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

As I was not present, I did not hear the reference to me. If I indeed erred—we shall find out tomorrow when we read the record—I did not intend to suggest that I oppose the principle of fixed penalty notices. I am certainly not qualified to speak for Her Majesty's loyal Opposition. I speak merely as a Back Bencher. I wholeheartedly favour fixed penalty notices; it is the means by which they are applied that we are trying to correct in Committee. I hope that I did not mislead the Minister.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I am genuinely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for clarifying his position on the matter. I was referring to the speech of the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey and the intervention that the hon. Member for North Wiltshire made on that speech. I may have misunderstood that intervention, and I am grateful for that clarification. The fact that the official Opposition voted against clause 1 will remain on record.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

I do not understand why the Minister misunderstands, or misrepresents, the matter. Fixed penalty notices are the proper response to some activities, as I said last week. However, as I said then, most of those listed are not among them.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

In the debate on clause 1, the hon. Gentleman correctly went through the offences, explaining that the proposal was either too heavy or not heavy enough in each category and explaining his party's position. Although I did not agree with his party's position, I thought that he explained it clearly. He also suggested some offences to which he would be prepared for fixed penalty notices to apply. However, he made it clear that the reason behind his voting on clause 1 stand part was that he did not agree with the offences specified in clause 1. My observation on his observation on consultation is that a consultation was held, to which the Liberal Democrats did not respond.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I am sure that the Minister understands, but we should have on record whether he agrees that people's view on the principle of the Bill is expressed on Second Reading. How one or more Members or an Opposition party vote on a clause in the stand part debate does not necessarily relate to whether they oppose the clause in principle. They may well vote against the clause standing part because they believe that it ineffectively achieves what it is intended to do or has other undesirable aspects.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I understand that point, and I am sure that when the Conservative party's position is explained to John Humphrys on the ``Today'' programme, the subtleties of that will come through. I was struck by the fact that in the clause 1 stand part debate the Liberal Democrat spokesman clearly explained his position and the reasons for it, and subsequently decided to vote against the clause, and the official Opposition decided, in what I thought was a spirit of me-tooism, to join the Liberal Democrats in that Lobby in that debate for no clear reason in principle. The hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire made his usual fluent and effective defence of what was effectively an indefensible position.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

The Minister will recall that, following ACPO's suggestion, we did not want criminal damage to be included in that clause. The Minister failed to meet our demands on that. He subsequently made the concession that fixed penalty notices would not be issued in cases of criminal damage that involved a direct victim. Does he agree that what we did worked?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

The position that I stated was the position that we had taken throughout—but enough of such party politics.

Crispin Blunt (Conservative, Reigate)

On a point of order, Mr. Hood. I am glad that the Minister has finally said that we had had enough of such party politics. You will be aware of directions from Mr. Speaker in the Chamber about the propensity of Ministers to talk about the official Opposition's policies. We have had a rather lengthy discourse from the Minister about the Conservative party's position on clause 1 and what we meant by voting against it, and my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire had to explain the Conservative party's position. Would it be possible, bearing in mind Mr. Speaker's guidance, for guidance to be given about whether Ministers should confine themselves to their own responsibilities rather than discussing those of Her Majesty's Opposition?

Jimmy Hood (Labour, Clydesdale)

The hon. Gentleman will know that I always take Mr. Speaker's guidance, and had the Minister been out of order, I would have told him so.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

Thus far, I have been speaking for eight minutes, and the previous 46 minutes were taken up almost entirely by Opposition Members. Indeed, a significant part of my eight minutes has been taken up by interventions, and I am now trying to deal with the various points made in the debate, which some may consider to have run widely.

The issue of discrimination raised by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey is obviously important in all conduct of police business. We do not believe that it is exacerbated by the availability of fixed penalty notices. The right to trial remains completely without qualification; the fixed penalty notice is not a coercive power. The hon. Gentleman's suggestion—I think I am paraphrasing him correctly—that someone will be repeatedly picked on if the police do not like him is unsubstantiated; there is no evidence that the existence of the fixed penalty notice exacerbates those powers in any respect.

On criminal records, I remind the hon. Gentleman that the payment of the fixed penalty notice leads to no criminal record. If the hon. Gentleman wants to reduce the number of criminal records, he should be supporting our fixed penalty notice legislation. Indeed, one reason for the fixed penalty notice from its inception was to make the whole justice process more rapid and effective, in a way that means fewer criminal records, although never taking away the right of individuals to go to court if they so wish.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

For clarification, is the fact that someone has paid a fixed penalty notice recorded in any way; and if so, is it open for that fact to be referred to in future court proceedings for other offences?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

We debated that at length during our previous sitting. The fact is that we do not have a comprehensive national system of recording fixed penalty notices, but we expect individual forces to hold records of what has happened. However, that is not a criminal record, and so does not stand on the record in the way that the right hon. and learned Gentleman suggests.

Let us get back to the amendment. We have spent a lot of time hearing interventions from Conservative Committee members in what was nevertheless a serious debate. Identity problems are nothing new—that is self-evident—and the police have a great deal of experience with dealing them. The amendment concerns the remedies available should false identification be provided, as was stated by the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt), who made a speech that was to the point. The Government's position is that correct identification details are essential to the efficient operation of the new system, as they are in every aspect of police rights across the system.

Obviously, not every offender engaged in disorderly or anti-social behaviour will volunteer correct information when first asked, whether because of particular circumstances such as those adduced or because they take the advice of the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey that when approached by a police officer, the best thing to do is to leg it. For that reason, we have a range of safeguards to deal with the problem, and our considered view is that the safeguards that I shall now cite make the creation of the new offence unnecessary. However, I take seriously the points that the hon. Member for Reigate made so clearly. I hope that he will consider carefully what I am about to say about the specific safeguards.

The Bill includes a power for the Secretary of State to issue guidance to the police about the issue of notices and the exercise of discretion under the new scheme. I should clarify—this may offer an assurance to the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire—that we intend to issue guidance making it absolutely clear that penalty notices should not be issued while identification is in doubt, for exactly the reasons stated and as is general practice, and that powers are available under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 to arrest offenders and take them to a police station for identification to be established. I believe that that meets the point made by the Association of Chief Police Officers, and I can give a further assurance that ACPO will be fully involved in the drawing up of such guidance.

We believe that the deliberate telling of a lie to a police officer in these circumstances could constitute an offence of wilfully obstructing a constable in the execution of his duty under section 89(2) of the Police Act 1996. I say to the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Bedfordshire that that offence is a more accurate description of the sanction than wasting police time, although it does offer an alternative route. Giving false information to the police is a serious matter and it is not unique to the fixed penalty notice.

If a penalty notice were completed with false particulars about the offender, they will relate probably to a person unconnected with the offence. If so, the first that that person is likely to know about the matter is when he receives a notice informing him that a fine has been registered against him. We have included special provision under clause 12 to deal with such a situation. A default court considering such a case will have the power to adjourn to allow the claim that the named person did not commit the offence to be investigated. It will then have to accept the claim, unless the contrary can be shown, and has the power to set aside the fine in the interests of justice. If it does not direct that no further action is to be taken, it must direct that further consideration is given to the case, as appropriate. That might include steps being taken against the offender who committed the penalty offence.

If a juvenile offender falsely claims to be more than 18 years old and, as a consequence, is issued with a penalty notice, the notice will be void and, provided that the offender is informed of that—and why—and any payment is returned, it will be possible to deal with the juvenile for the offence in any way that would have been available had the notice not been issued.

The four safeguards in the Bill are the guidance that will be issued; the fact that powers under the Police Act 1996 can be used; the procedure under clause 12 to deal with false particulars; and the provisions to deal with the possibility that a youth offender claims falsely to be over 18. They provide sufficient ways in which to handle the provision of false particulars. A further offence will not be necessary.

Crispin Blunt (Conservative, Reigate)

The problem with the Minister's explanation arose when he said that such powers could relate to section 89(2) of the Police Act 1996. It would have been better if he had used the word ``would''. When a police officer is trying to obtain details for the issue of a fixed penalty notice, such action should be linked explicitly to section 89(2) of the Act, so it would be clear to the courts that the offender

``wilfully obstructs a constable in the execution of his duty''.

He said ``could'', not ``would'', but that risk should not be taken.

I am worried about the Secretary of State's guidance, to which the Minister referred. We have not seen the details of that guidance and it will be difficult for us to debate clause 6 without them. He said that the guidance will include the provision that no fixed penalty notice shall be given when identification is in doubt. Well, if that is to be the standard practice, fixed penalties will never be issued.

Let us suppose that someone is wandering around with a wallet that he nicked from someone and is able to produce a driver's licence or some other identification that was not his. Unless the same standards of proof are demanded as would be obtained from photo-identity cards to establish correct identification, in almost all circumstances fixed penalty notices will not be handed out. It is unlikely that people in those circumstances will be carrying such identification, so the system will not work. There will have to be an element of doubt. The police will have to make a judgment.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I undertook last Tuesday to do my best to ensure that the Committee has the draft guidance before it rises. That is my intention and I take this opportunity to reiterate it.

On the point about ``could'' or ``would'', the reason that I said ``could'' is that I am not a judge, and I hope never will be, and it is not for me to pre-empt the decision of a court on whether the Police Act 1996 has been breached. The power in the Act, which refers to someone who

``wilfully obstructs a constable in the execution of his duty''

is rightly widely drawn, to give the courts proper discretion to deal with particular circumstances. The Government consider that failure to co-operate with a police officer in relation to fixed penalty notices would be something that a court could consider in that context, but it is not for me as a Minister to prejudge the court's decision.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

Am I right in thinking that all the ways of dealing with non-compliance, whether as proposed in the amendment or in the ways that the Minister described, would produce a criminal offence and a criminal record? If so, have the Government made any assessment of how many additional criminal offences are likely to flow in any year from the operation of the fixed penalty notice system?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

We have not made such an assessment because, unlike the hon. Gentleman, I believe that the incidents that we are discussing will not happen a great deal. It is impossible to predict exactly what will happen. On the question of criminal offences, if one

``wilfully obstructs a constable in the execution of his duty'',

that is a criminal offence. I am not sure whether the other measures are criminal offences, but I shall return to that later, if I may, rather than giving an off-the-cuff answer.

I urge the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire to withdraw the amendment.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

We have had a good debate, and the Minister has tried to reassure us, but we remain concerned on several grounds. First, yes, there will be guidance; yes, the Minister has told us what will be in it; and yes, he tells us that we will have it before the Committee rises. What sort of help is that? We need the guidance before we discuss the clauses to which it is relevant. It is not good enough to say that we will have it on the last day. Why cannot we have it now?

Secondly, although I accept the Minister's assurance that he will do his best to cover the point in the guidance, until we have seen the detail, that is no replacement for the law, which is what the clauses deal with.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

The Minister reaffirmed today that we are not sitting next week. Would it not be reasonable to ask him to provide the guidance before the start of our sitting the week after that?

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

That is a very sensible suggestion. I do not know whether the Minister will intervene at some point to tell us his exact timetable. If we received the guidance on the morning of 8 March, that would be a pointless exercise—useful on Report, but not in Committee.

The Minister may well be right to say that the offence under section 89(2) of the Police Act 1996 would cover some relevant situations, but I was not convinced that even he was convinced that it would necessarily cover them all. I know that in other recent Bills the Government have thought it necessary to create offences of that sort—there was one in the Vehicles (Crime) Bill. It would be helpful in deterring those who may use false particulars to have a specific offence related to the circumstances that is well known, and which would highlight the position.

I was grateful for the other two assurances that the Minister gave but, on balance, it is right to press the amendment to a Division, although I will take great account of what my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate said about whether the penalty was sufficient. I rather like the idea of the Amsterdam proposal of a three-day period of imprisonment, and we can discuss that before Report stage.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 5, Noes 11.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

We dealt earlier with most of the issues that arise under clause 2, but there was the lingering problem of what is the effect of paying the penalty as regards the discharge of liability to be convicted under subsection (4). Can the Minister confirm that that administrative disposal means not that an offence has not been committed, but that there is no finding of guilt when the fixed penalty is paid? He suggested that it will be possible for a record to be kept, especially if a fixed penalty notice is not paid; he also said that for a short period records may be kept of fixed penalty notices that have been dealt with. If records are available that show, for example, that an offender has failed to pay fixed penalty notices for six offences, and if that defendant then comes before a court for a seventh, can magistrates be told that there are previous unpaid fixed penalty notices, or even a notice that has been paid? In other words, will there be a record—which may not be complete—of non-payment of fixed penalty notices?

I understand that the Minister would not want to introduce the accelerator system suggested in the consultation document, because of the difficulties highlighted by ACPO, but if there is information available about the background of the accused that suggests that he is a serial offender, should not that be something for the court to take into account? Would that form part of the antecedents of the accused in the question of sentencing?

What does ``an authorised constable'' include? Would it include a special? Would it include a member of the British Transport police? Would it include a member of the Royal Parks police or the Royal Military police? Who qualifies as ``authorised''? Some of the penalty offences relate to the fire service. Is it thought that the police would have to be involved in the issue of penalty notices in such instances, or is it thought that in some way the fire service would have its own ability to do so?

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

We have not yet discussed whether the Government, by adding offences to the list for which one may receive a fixed penalty notice, are creating something that is not a criminal offence in the traditional sense of the word. I ask that because clause 1(1) states:

``For the purposes of this Chapter `penalty offence' means an offence committed under any of the provisions mentioned in the first column of the following Table''.

If one ``commits'', say, a ``penalty offence'' one is able to discharge it—in the words of the clause—by paying the fixed penalty notice. As the Minister confirmed, that does not go on one's record. Are we therefore making a set of activities no longer criminal offences provided that one pays the fixed penalty notice? Does the only criminal offence become not paying the fixed penalty notice? If that is the offence, it begs interesting questions of jurisprudence and the criminal justice system. Are we therefore extending the range of criminal offences that one is charged with, but providing a way of getting out of them? That is an unusual new system.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

At the risk of doing the Minister's job—the hon. Gentleman is raising an important point, to which I hope the Minister is alert—clause 2(4) suggests that by paying a penalty one discharges the liability to be convicted, so there is no offence as long as one pays. However, I suspect that the hon. Gentleman, like me, is not yet satisfied.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

The right hon. and learned Gentleman raises an important issue. A fixed penalty notice is given for an activity that is unlawful. If it is rendered unlawful by statute, one would presume that committing it is an offence. Clearly, if one does something that discharges one's liability for conviction, one is being dealt with for an offence—it remains an offence. If I may use a parallel, if one does not fill in one's tax return by 31 January—this year the period was extended to two days later—a penalty arises. I cannot remember, if I ever knew, whether it is a criminal penalty or whether one incurs a charge as one would for keeping a library book too long. It is important, in the criminal law, for people to know whether they are in breach—whether they have done something that is a criminal offence, even though they do not get a criminal record. If it is not an offence, what is it? That is the big question.

The smaller question, and the reason why I shall not support the clause, is whether the Government gave serious consideration to the idea that penalty notices should be issued only in police stations. I would prefer that system for the notices under discussion. That could not be done for car parking offences, unlawful street trading and matters that we have argued can reasonably be dealt with on the street, because the offending item is apparent.

The Minister made a valid point about consultation, which I accept. I want to place it on the record that, in general terms, Liberal Democrats—and I, think, the Conservative party—do not respond formally to Government consultation, as we see it as our job to await the response of the public. We have our chance to respond when White Papers, Green Papers and Bills are produced. Otherwise, it looks as if we are forming a view before we have heard the view of the wider public.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I want to take the opportunity to tease out from the Minister whether, if one accepts a notice and pays a penalty, one has any form of criminal record that may be kept by the police or national or local authorities and drawn to the attention of the court as evidence of previous guilt or to influence the court in relation to a penalty for an offence for which the person involved may be charged, tried and sentenced in future.

Subsection (4) expressly states that a ``penalty notice''

``means a notice offering the opportunity, by paying a penalty''—

in other words, people must pay up, not just accept the notice—

``in accordance with this Chapter, to discharge any liability to be convicted of the offence to which the notice relates.''

In principle I am prepared to support that, and that is what I understood that I was supporting on Second Reading. However, I am not prepared to support the idea that if people pay their £40, or whatever the penalty is, they have some kind of unofficial criminal record. I regard that as utterly wrong. The Parliamentary Secretary has had to slip out; no doubt he has discussed what he said with the Minister. On the afternoon of Tuesday 6 February, the Parliamentary Secretary said that

``it may be possible for police officers to keep local administrative records of fixed penalty notices''—[Official Report, Standing Committee F, 6 February 2001; c. 67.]

I regard that as undesirable, and I hope that the Minister will make it perfectly clear that if people pay the penalty notice, the slate is clean and no record—criminal, official or otherwise—is kept.

Crispin Blunt (Conservative, Reigate)

I rise in support of my right hon. and learned Friend. It was in response to an intervention from me that the Parliamentary Secretary made that statement, which I find rather opaque—as, indeed, is subsection (4). The provision makes clear the issue of criminal liability, but it may be unclear in the minds of people who have accepted a penalty what sort of record will be kept on them. People have some idea that when they accept a caution they are making an admission of an offence that, in some cases, may be taken into consideration by the courts. That is certainly true for sexual offences, for example, although I do not know in detail to which offences that applies. People are aware that when they accept a caution, they are admitting formally in respect of the criminal system that they have committed an offence and, to some extent and for some purposes, have a record.

In the case of a fixed penalty notice, people are not accepting that they have committed an offence. It is designed, in effect, to short-circuit the system so that, rather than put the state to the inconvenience of a trial and the expense of exposing people to such a trial, people can discharge that obligation by paying a fine the amount of which we shall discuss when we debate the next clause.

Like my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-East Bedfordshire, I believe that the Government must, in either the response to the clause or guidance, be explicit that records on people who have admitted an offence and receive a caution are a different matter, and that people who have not admitted the offence but have accepted a fixed penalty notice in preference to standing trial should not have an unofficial police record lurking about for future reference. We go to enormous lengths under data protection legislation to ensure that such records are kept extremely tight for all other aspects of people's lives, and criminal records are an extremely serious aspect of people's lives. Paying the fine on time should completely discharge people's obligation and any form of record keeping, as should be explicit in the guidance that the Minister will offer or in some other form that I hope he will propose when he replies to the debate.

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-East Bedfordshire, the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey and my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate raised certain issues. They highlighted some of the strong worries expressed in the Criminal Bar Association's submissions in response to the Government's original consultation paper about how the new proposals would link into the fixed penalty notices for road traffic offences under the established law. They are right to say that there is confusion. The Government have not yet cleared it up, and I have little confidence that the Minister can give us a satisfactory answer.

Members of the criminal Bar will have to wrestle with such matters. Clearly, the Government's proposals will not work if there is confusion in the minds of judges, magistrates and the court clerks who advise them. The distinguished authors of the Criminal Bar Association's paper said that it was unclear whether the idea was to criminalise or decriminalise such conduct—the point made by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey.

Under schedule 3 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, the traffic offences listed to which fixed penalty notices already apply are non-criminal. However, if the conduct that the Government are dealing with under the Bill results in a notice being paid, not a court hearing, the Criminal Bar Association asks whether it will amount to a conviction. If not, the effect will be to decriminalise some behaviour that is currently criminal. The reverse will also be true in relation to other offences. The stated aim in the Government's original consultation paper that led to the Bill is to treat more seriously some cases that previously resulted, and continue to result, in cautions or small fines. That is set out in paragraph 18 of the Government's consultation paper. As Mr. Philip Katz QC, the senior author of the Criminal Bar Association's paper, rightly says, that ``confuses penalty with conviction.''

Members of the Committee will know that it has been sacrosanct in the English law down the ages not to confuse the offence and the conviction with the penalty exacted by the courts for that offence. The authors of the CBA's submission refer to the fact that the Customs and Excise practice of so-called compounding precisely demonstrates the issue at stake. The person who compounds avoids prosecution. That is what happens now under the fixed penalty notice provisions of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988. It avoids the risk of any conviction for a criminal record, but, as the authors of the paper say:

``Compounding is not a good analogy''

with what the Government propose because that relates to the payment of Customs and Excise duty

``which is in any event due, plus an element of penalty. It is more of an administrative procedure, which suits both sides and avoids the costs and consequences for both sides of a court hearing.''

The CBA paper states that, if the Government's proposal is to be operated on the basis of something that is equivalent to compounding, it should be made clear. It says that the Government should not attempt

``political justification on unproven grounds of `deterrent'''.

It says that, if the legal minefield that the Government want to create could be safety traversed, they would be wiser to introduce a pilot scheme such as they have done already in relation to vehicle emissions under the Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) (Fixed Penalty) Regulations 1997. Opposition Members are worried that the proposal was rushed. It was conceived in haste by the Prime Minister when he wanted to say something that could make a speech to theologians in Tubigen, Germany, of interest to the British press. It is a half-baked idea that was dreamed up on the back of an envelope.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

I had not realised that other colleagues would take the bait to the extent that they have, and expound so much on my short point. However, it is an important issue and I am glad that they have done so.

There will soon be a review of the criminal justice system by Lord Justice Auld and, in the spring, the conclusions will be released of the sentencing review. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this debate should take place in that context, along with debates on issues such as non-payment of council tax? We might then discuss how people are dealt with for offences that have not traditionally been crimes but breaches of some obligation, and debate which offences should be in the latter category and which remain in the criminal offence category, for which a person would get a criminal record.

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, because I entirely agree with him. We have repeatedly said that the Government are rushing into this legislation. One might ask them, ``Where's the beef? Where's the rush?''—but we know that they want to rush things through before a projected general election. The legislation does not take into account the issues that will arise from the Auld review and a consideration of how the Narey reforms are working in practice. As a result, it is rushed and half-baked. The Government must give better answers on those matters than those that they have given us so far. The point is reinforced by the fact that senior members of the Bar, such as Mr. Philip Katz QC, who will have to put the measures into practice in the courts, are expressing serious concerns.

The authors of the Criminal Bar Association paper say, on the related issue of deterrence:

``If the legal consequences of payment of a Notice are to be exactly the same as for a court hearing, (i.e. a conviction) logic suggests that the only effect will be to induce some people to pay by post rather than have the inconvenience of a court hearing.''

That is what tends to happen with parking tickets.

``Convenience is certainly a strong argument in favour of such a scheme. Costs and time will also be saved if people can plead guilty by post''—

which is a point that we appreciate. The paper goes on:

``On this approach tickets could be issued to sober and calm people on the street or sobered people back at the police station. This is not, however, anything to do with `deterrence'.''

That is the point about which the Government are confused. The paper continues:

``If on the other hand the legal consequences of a Notice are to be less than a conviction, then the deterrent effect is even harder to identify. As we have seen, that is the legal consequences of the road traffic fixed penalty scheme and compounding. People are not deterred from speeding or parking illegally because of the risk of a fixed penalty notice as opposed to a prosecution. If they are deterred at all, it is because they have to pay either way. The fixed penalty notices provide a convenient way of paying up and avoiding a conviction. Some people''—

one remembers, for example, various scandals involving African embassies—

``collect large numbers of parking tickets as part of their business expenses. The deterrent to Customs duty evaders is the risk of penalty and of prosecution. The availability of compounding is the exact opposite of a deterrent and is seen by some persistent evaders as the risk they are prepared to take...The offences listed in the Paper straddle what some might regard as the criminal threshold. The demarcation lines between conviction and penalty, and between criminal and non-criminal conduct need to be clear as a matter of principle''—

on the grounds set out by the authors of that paper, and on other grounds.

I will not go through the whole paper, but it is important to understand the substantive point that the difference between criminal and non-criminal conduct needs to be clear as a matter of principle. That is our concern.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

My hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Jackie Ballard) cannot be here now, but will be present later. She told me that, in a women's magazine that she read recently, someone included car fines and parking fines as part of her monthly expenses—as part of her normal budget. It may be difficult to believe, but some people write those costs into their normal expenses. They do not think of the fines as a punishment for anything criminal; they are simply part of the ordinary disbursements of life.

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, and I am sure that he is right. I did not see the article that the hon. Member for Taunton saw, but I have seen similar budgeting done. Indeed, a column is running in The Daily Telegraph at present that is based on the fictitious account of the life of a woman in the City of London, and I believe that that contains similar arrangements, so I am sure that it is based on truth. The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey reinforces my argument. We retain serious concerns; we will listen to what the Minister has to say, but the proposal has been rushed and contains serious problems. The Government would certainly have been wiser to await detailed responses to the Auld review—which they themselves set in train—before making this proposal, in which they appear not to have properly thought through issues of legal principle.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I want to put it on the record that so far Government Members have spoken for 15 minutes of the hour and 35 minutes for which we have been sitting. After the hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Mr. Hawkins) read out most of the Criminal Bar Association's submission verbatim—perhaps being faithful to his former profession by simply reading the brief in front of him—I was tempted to detain the Committee by reading out the 111 submissions received from a variety of organisations, so that we could have on record the view not only of the Criminal Bar Association, crucial though that is, but of the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Association of Chief Officers of Probation, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Howard League for Penal Reform, the Inner London Magistrates Courts Service, Justice and others of the 111 organisations. [Interruption.]

I am tempted to respond to that popular demand from Government Committee members to read them all out, but it is important to put it on the record that the Criminal Bar Association is only one of those giving evidence, and many different people and organisations are interested in the Bill. I hope that the Committee will not regard the Criminal Bar Association as having the only view of significance, despite the fact that the hon. Member for Surrey Heath declared his interest, and then proceeded simply to read out the brief.

Some points of substance were made in the debate, and I want to respond to them. The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey asked about consultation. We really tried to consult. I take his point about political parties not conventionally responding to that invitation, but when I was in the official Opposition, it was common for us not necessarily to respond formally to a consultation document but to make our position clear by speeches, letters or other devices. It is no criticism of him that that was not done in this case; I am simply responding to his point that somehow we had not consulted, because it does not stack up.

The hon. Gentleman asked about piloting. We have not included the formal power to pilot the proposal because we consider it technically impossible. Formal pilots require fixed geographical areas, which are not suitable for powers available generally in the streets. However, it may be of interest if I put on the record the fact that we intend, with the co-operation of the police, to do what we can to test the application of the scheme in particular areas before it is widely used.

The hon. Gentleman asked whether we considered making the powers available only at police stations? The answer is yes, we did, but for the reasons explained in earlier interventions by my hon. Friends the Members for South Thanet and for Peterborough (Mrs. Brinton), we think that it is important to give the police the choice in certain circumstances—using their discretion in accordance with guidance—to use the fixed penalty notice power on the streets.

The hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire asked who would be an authorised constable. The fundamental position is that police forces are covered under the Police Acts and the generality of police legislation. All regular forces are covered, as well as special constables, who are dealt with under section 29 of the Police Act 1996. Fire officers are not included, as they are not so covered by that Act. We propose that police officers, not fire officers, should have the powers.

On the special services, the Bill relates to all geographically based forces covered by police legislation. In addition, the British Transport police asked for specific coverage because of the offence of trespassing on the railways. Other forces—for example, the Ministry of Defence police and the Royal Parks police—did not ask to be covered by the measure, so they are not. The Bill applies generally to police forces and to the British Transport police because of the nature of the offences set out in clause 1.

The right hon. and learned Member for North-East Bedfordshire, who intervened in the speech of the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey, was correct to say that if an individual pays the fixed penalty notice he avoids conviction for the reasons set out in clause 2(4) and keeps a clean slate. I am happy to assure him that it will not be evidence of previous guilt in a future trial, and there will be no unofficial criminal record.

I was asked whether there is any local recording. We should ensure that offenders do not receive repeated penalty notices; even without written records, constables would be aware which local offenders had numerous penalty notices, although they would have discretion in every case. I assure the Committee that information about earlier notices will be used for no other purpose than to check the word of an individual who had received previous fixed penalty notices. It will not be used in other court hearings, it will not be on the record in any sense and it will not be an unofficial record.

The meaning of clause 2(4), as the right hon. and learned Gentleman said, is absolutely explicit. I reinforce the point that there is no finding of guilt if the payment is made; that, too, is absolutely clear in the Bill. The record is local and administrative.

An unpaid fixed penalty notice becomes registered as an unpaid fine, and in that circumstance could be relevant in future proceedings, because unpaid fines are on the record. If the individual pays a fixed penalty notice, as set out in the Bill, there is no admission of guilt and no official or unofficial criminal record.

I have tried to deal with the various points made in the debate.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

The Minister has answered my points fairly and clearly and I apologise for intervening to ask him to clarify the position on giving a fixed penalty notice. I understand it to mean that it must, at least, be clearly tendered to the individual; however, it is possible that that individual will not accept it, in which case he should then be arrested, if that is what is wanted. I seek clarification of the term ``giving'', which will have consequences down the line if it is not accepted and understood?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

As the right hon. and learned Gentleman knows, we are the giving Government, so I am happy to give him the clarification that he wants. Fundamentally, he is right: the fixed penalty notice must be accepted. It is an agreement by the individual on whom it is served to pay the penalty and thus not to be subject to other legal action. Clauses 3 and 4 set out the meaning of accepting the notice and the nature of the notice, making it clear that the right to go to court remains. He is right in his assumption that if an individual does not accept the notice, the police officer will have to take other action. The point of the fixed penalty notice is that it is an agreement between the giver of the notice and the receiver that payment would be made rather than an alternative legal course being taken.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I am happy with what the Minister says. It is entirely sensible that if the person does not accept the notice, the police officer must take other action. However, I must declare an interest, and I suspect that others may have similar interests. There is currently a system of parking tickets under which the warden writes them down but never affixes the ticket to the motor car, and the motorist drives off. I question whether that is legal. Does it comply with the parking regulations? Will the Minister make it clear that that practice will not be allowed to enter into this Bill?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I can give that assurance. I cannot speak in relation to the parking legislation that the right hon. and learned Gentleman describes, but he was right in what he said about giving and, by implication, receiving. The fixed penalty notice needs to be received if it is given.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

Can we draw from that the logical conclusion that there cannot be any deemed giving of notice? There can be deemed serving of notice in other contexts in the criminal law.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I can give that assurance for exactly the logical reason that was referred to in the exchange between the right hon. and learned Member for North-East Bedfordshire and me. There cannot be a deeming of giving a notice unless it is received.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

When one is given the notice, does that constitute being charged with the offence or an action that is equivalent to being charged? I ask that because of the wording in the clause. By paying one discharges liability to be convicted, but there must be something that accuses one of the offence for one to be able to discharge liability and accept that one has committed the offence.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

We need to be absolutely clear about this. The individual is not charged simply by being served the notice. He is charged if he does not accept the notice because he says that he is not guilty of the offence. The police officer must then decide whether to arrest or charge him for the offence in the normal way. The payment of the fixed penalty offence is a means of discharging liability. However, serving a fixed penalty notice is not equivalent to charging the person.

I have tried to deal as fully as possible with the points made in this debate. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

It was interesting that the Minister said that, although the Government had not intended to pilot formally, they intend to test the scheme in certain parts of the country. That is helpful, and a sensible way of proceeding. I would be grateful to find out later, informally or formally, what plans exist to do that.

The Minister's answers confirm more strongly than ever that the sooner we have the guidance, the better. For example, if the guidance were to make it clear when there should be charging or the serving of fixed penalty notices on the street rather than in the station, that would clarify many matters that are currently the subject of debate.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

The Minister's answers have been helpful. It would be churlish, having heard them, to press the motion to a Division. The Minister may describe the Government as the giving Government, but we all know what they are giving—the taxpayer's money.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3 - Amount of penalty and form of penalty notice

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

I beg to move amendment No. 2, in page 3, line 12, leave out from `is' to end of line 13 and insert `£50'.

Jimmy Hood (Labour, Clydesdale)

With this it will be convenient to take the following amendments: No. 23, in page 3, line 15, leave out from `than' to end of line 16 and insert `£100'.

No. 78, in page 3, line 15, leave out `half' and insert `one quarter of'.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

We have now reached the debate on the amount of the penalty and the form of the notice. This is a simple probing amendment, suggesting that there should be a fixed maximum. As it stands, the clause allows the Secretary of State to specify the maximum penalty by order. It then qualifies the amount that can be specified by limiting it to a tariff linked to the maximum fine for which someone would be liable if convicted of the offence, and proposes that the fixed penalty notice should be no more than half of what the fine would be. It also goes on to other matters that we can debate later, including the provision that the order would need to be laid before Parliament on a negative resolution procedure, to be prayed against rather than affirmed.

I propose that there should be a maximum £50 fine to test what league we are in. I suspect that this is also why the Conservatives have proposed a maximum of £100. I am concerned about this for the reasons that I gave earlier. The danger of this system is that it seeks to penalise people, or put them in a position where they will be penalised, irrespective of their means. Although £100, £200 or £300 may be nothing to some people, it is a huge amount to others. The possibility of imposing a fine that is beyond the reasonable means of the person given the fixed penalty notice brings the whole system into disrepute.

What happens to someone who has no spare money at all? Let us take the extreme example of an asylum seeker who receives a voucher, has no money or access to money, is not allowed to work and receives no benefits. How does such a person get hold of the £50, £100 or £200? How does someone on the minimum amount of benefit suddenly find that money within the appropriate period, other than by borrowing it or stealing it? Because this system is so geared to the well-off, the person who can simply pay his way out of trouble, and so geared against anyone who cannot do that, we need an extremely low penalty. People who go on offending will get several very low penalties.

I ask Ministers to be absolutely clear about what the maximum is. As I do not have the information readily available, and the Minister has all his civil servants to provide the answers, could he tell us the current maximum fine for all the offences in the list are so that we can know exactly what we are talking about if the Government propose that there should be the ability to pay up to half the fine? If it is more than £100, it is certainly unacceptable. I hope that it is no more than £50.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

The Conservatives have tabled two of the amendments in this group. Amendment No. 23 would limit the fine to £100 and I shall come to amendment No. 78 in a moment.

We were discussing what happened with the public order offences that were dealt with by fixed penalty notices in New South Wales. One of the conclusions in the reply from the New South Wales ombudsman to the Home Office consultation was that if the fines are too high, they simply are not paid. ACPO has said something similar. If one reads the mass of documents that the Minister has, as I have done, it becomes clear that the general feeling is that the right level to pitch the fine is between £50 and £100. That seems to be the view of ACPO. It is the view of the Inner London Magistrates Courts Service, so I hope that the Minister would agree that we are talking about that bracket. It would have been helpful for us to see in draft form the order that the clause allows the Secretary of State to make, setting out exactly what he has in mind. He may want different levels for particular offences, which would have informed our debate. As the Bill is being rushed through, however, we have not seen such an order.

Does the Minister agree that, if the penalty were pitched too high, collection would be a problem? There is also the worry that offences of seriousness will be dealt with by fixed penalty notice when they should not be, and that that would diminish the punishment effect. However, if penalties are too low, they are inadequate. There is a balance to be struck, and we need to know the Minister's intention. Amendment No. 23 suggests the other end of the bracket from the Liberal Democrat proposal of £50, based on the consultation responses.

Amendment No. 78 takes a different tack and would allow the Secretary of State to set fixed penalty notices at no more than a quarter of the level of the maximum, rather than half. I shall describe the effect of that for offences in clause 1. For example, under section 12 of the Licensing Act 1872, the maximum fine for being drunk in a highway would be £50. It would be £1,250 for throwing a firework in a thoroughfare and £625 for knowingly giving a false alarm to a fire brigade. It would be £250 for the next four offences—trespassing on a railway, throwing stones at trains, buying or attempting to buy alcohol for under-18s and disorderly behaviour while drunk. The fine would be a maximum of £625 for wasting police time. It would be £1,250 for the destruction of, or damage to, property without lawful excuse and for the telecommunications offence. It would be £250 for threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour and £125 for consumption of alcohol in a designated place.

If the Minister wants the level to be one half of the maximum, as the legislation provides, he needs to explain whether he is seriously saying that he would contemplate fixed penalties for some of those offences that were twice the figures that I have given. Is he seriously thinking of making it possible for a fixed penalty notice of £2,500 to be issued to someone? It would be wrong in principle to issue such a notice. An offence serious enough to have a £2,500 fine applied to it should not be dealt with by a fixed penalty notice, because we do not want serious matters to be trivialised. I hope that the Minister will reassure us that there is a reason why he needs the power to set fixed penalties, a lesser disposal, at potentially such a high rate. Our amendments would provide the Minister with options: a lower maximum level or less scope for the setting of fixed penalties.

My other question arose from a similar concern to that expressed by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey about the means of the accused person. Previously, the Minister said that, if someone were unable to pay a fine, it would be registered with a magistrates court, which could give time to pay under its enforcement jurisdiction. If an inappropriate notice is given to someone who does not have any means, is it right that the system's effect is for him to be fined one and a half times the amount of the fixed penalty notice? Is that not building on an initial failure? A fixed penalty notice may be imposed on someone without means, who does not pay the fine because he cannot. Is the answer to make the fine one and a half times its original amount and then say to the magistrates, ``Now, get the money out of him''? I have doubts about that.

How are such conundrums to be solved? Liberty is worried that the measure will discriminate against the most vulnerable in society. It says that it is

``likely to cause problems particularly for those with temporary housing or who are homeless.''

It asks whether those who are in debt and unable to pay the fine could end up being imprisoned. Crisis, the national agency for single homeless people, is worried that fixed penalty notices will particularly hit homeless people. On social grounds and on those of effective policing, is not it right to set the fixed penalties at realistic levels and have some means of avoiding unreasonable and unfair treatment of the most vulnerable in society?

Crispin Blunt (Conservative, Reigate)

When I first read the provisions that deal with the fines payable under the fixed penalty notices, I assumed that there would be a standard tariff. That would be the effect of the amendments tabled by the Liberal Democrats and my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire. I look forward to hearing the Government's thinking on such matters because the explanatory notes to the Bill state:

``Subsections (1) and (2) allow the Secretary of State to specify the level of the penalty for each offence up to a maximum of 50 per cent. of the maximum fine for the offence.''

If we are to have a system of cheap and cheerful justice without an admission of guilt, it would be better to have a standard tariff, which is why I am attracted to the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend. The first offence listed under clause 1 of

``Being drunk in a highway, other public place or licensed premises''

attracts a level 1 fine. My hon. Friend's two amendments are inconsistent, one saying that there would be a fine of £100 and the other wanting a fine of £50, so there would be a slight problem if the Government accepted them. However, given the Government's track record so far in listening to our side of the Committee, I doubt whether that will happen.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that, earlier in our proceedings, we not only accepted an Opposition amendment but voted for it—an unusual occurrence?

Crispin Blunt (Conservative, Reigate)

The Minister makes a good point. My approach is slightly affected by what happened in the Committee of the Bill that became the Armed Forces Discipline Act 2000. You will recall, Mr. Hood, having taken evidence on such matters when we served together on the Select Committee on Defence, that the Government refused to listen to anyone's advice during the entire proceedings. They went through the whole Bill rigorously without amending it. I remember the Home Secretary standing in the House saying that he knew of not one Bill that could go through parliamentary procedures and not be improved in some way. Well, I have been a member of a Committee when nothing in the Bill under discussion was amended.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

One reason why that happened, despite the merit of the clause, was to encourage a constructive, appropriate and focused debate. We are slightly disappointed that such a gesture has not been reflected in the speeches from the Opposition Benches.

Crispin Blunt (Conservative, Reigate)

I sincerely hope, Mr. Hood, that the Minister is not referring to me or implying that your chairmanship or that of Mr. Gale has been lacking.

A serious issue is involved. The offence of

``Being drunk in a highway, other public place or licensed premises''

rightly attracts a level 1 fine, whereas the offences of

``Using public telecommunications system for sending message known to be false in order to cause annoyance''

``Destruction of, or damage to, property without lawful excuse''

attracts a level 5 fine.

I want to pick up on the points made by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey. I disagree that the effect of the penalties will be exclusively at the cost of people who will have difficulty in affording them. The police will be able to make such judgments on the ground when deciding whether to levy a fixed penalty notice, accept a caution or take the person to trial. In principle, one of the advantages of fixed penalty notices is that they give local police who understand their area greater discretion in deciding the appropriate way to deal with people with whom they are involved. They will obviously consider the effect of a £100 standard fine, if that is ultimately specified in the Bill, a £50 fine or a tariff to be levelled by the Government by order, to ascertain what that effect will be.

For the system to work and be widely understood, it is important to set a standard tariff of £100 so that the police know what they are dealing with in respect of all the offences. If the offences are serious and attract penalties of up to level 5 in the scale, they are clearly not suitable to be dealt with under the fixed penalty notice scheme. They should go to trial, and people should receive a conviction if the offences are so serious that they would merit serious penalty.

I support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire, which suggests £100. I hope that he will not press his other amendment—which would become nugatory if the penalty were specified in the Bill—unless the Government decline to accept the amendment suggesting £100, in which case I hope that they would accept my hon. Friend's amendment to change the amount specified from one half to one quarter of the tariff if different tariffs will apply for different offences.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I obviously exempt the hon. Gentleman from my general strictures. Throughout the Committee, he has tried to keep to the point of the amendments under discussion, and I appreciate that.

The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey referred to discrimination against the most vulnerable in society. We must be clear that if the recipient of the penalty notice fails to respond to the penalty notice, a fine may be registered against him. If the fine is not paid, the court before which the individual then appears as a fine defaulter would be able to order payment of the final instalment if he cannot afford to pay it all at once. That will ensure that no one goes to prison because he cannot afford to pay the fine arising out of an unpaid fixed penalty. The Bill also gives the court the power to set aside the fine in the interests of justice. I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's general argument.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

But how does the Minister explain punishing the person who has no means by making the registered fine one and a half times the original fixed penalty notice? We need to provide a mechanism that avoids people without means being placed in that position.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

People can avoid being placed in that position by not accepting the fixed penalty notice and going to court directly. That is a matter for them, and nothing in the Bill removes that power.

The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey suggested that the Bill is for the well heeled. It is not. It is perfectly flexible.

As the hon. Gentleman helpfully suggested, I shall place formally on the record punishments and average fines. For offences under section 12 of the Licensing Act 1872, the average fine is £37 and the maximum punishment is level 1; under section 80 of the Explosives Act 1875, £274 and level 5; under section 31 of the Fire Services Act 1947, £96 and level 3.

Under section 55 of the British Transport Commission Act 1949, for the offence of trespassing on a railway, the average fine is £53 and the maximum punishment is level 3, and under section 56 of that Act, for throwing stones on a railway, the average fine is £53 and the maximum punishment is level 3. Under section 169 of the Licensing Act 1964, which relates to buying or attempting to buy alcohol for consumption in a bar in licensed premises by a person under 18, the average fine is £20 and the maximum is level 3. Under section 91 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967, for disorderly behaviour while drunk in a public place, the average fine is £58 and the maximum punishment is level 3. Under section 5(2) of the Criminal Law Act 1967, which covers wasting police time, the average fine is £240 and the maximum punishment level 4. Under section 1(1) of the Criminal Damage Act 1971, the average fine is £97, the maximum punishment level 5. Under section 43(1)(b) of the Telecommunications Act 1984, the average fine is £135, the maximum punishment level 5. Under section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986, the average fine is £88, the maximum punishment level 3. Under clause 14 of the Bill, which relates to consumption of alcohol in a designated public place, there is as yet no average as we have no data, but the maximum is level 2. That sets the record straight as to what we are discussing.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

Will the Minister confirm the current maximums for the five fine levels?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I will. The current maximum for level 1 is £200, for level 3 it is £1,000, for level 4 it is £2,500 and for level 5 it is £5,000. The maximum for level 2 is £500.

I turn to the substance. First, we do not accept the argument—although I can see its attraction—that we should necessarily have the same fine for all those offences. They are different and there is no logic for them all to have one fine figure. That said, I accept the force of the argument made by the hon. Member for Reigate that the system needs to be clear and simple so that people know where they stand, so we are not talking about wide disparity. Secondly, we do not believe that financial amounts should be stated in the Bill, in order to retain flexibility in respect of inflation and other such considerations. Also, circumstances change and the Government of the day may want to address the matter in a different way.

Thirdly, the overwhelming bulk of responses that we received suggested fines in the order of £50 to £100, and I want to confirm and place on the record that that is the order of fine that we are considering in this regard. The hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire asked whether we would consider a fine of £2,500 for throwing a firework. The answer is no; that would be completely outside what we are discussing. However, I am not in favour of the amendments setting fines of £50 or £100 for all offences, because I do not think that we should do the same for all and I believe that we should retain flexibility.

I confess that I am more attracted by the amendment setting a maximum of a quarter rather than a half. When one looks at the figures, there is something to be said for that, and I am prepared to consider that as we progress. I am certainly prepared to say that before the Secretary of State lays an order we are happy to discuss it widely. We have already received many views in response to the consultation, and we certainly would not want to legislate for anything significantly outside the range suggested in those responses.

I am trying to be helpful in my response to the amendments. If the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire presses them to a Division, I ask Government Committee members not to vote for them, but I hope, especially in the light of what I said about the merits of his proposition on the maximum of a quarter rather than a half, which I shall carefully consider, that he will be prepared not to press the amendments.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

Obviously, we knew that the average fines were roughly of that order, and a quarter seems to me to give plenty of scope. None of the average fines are anywhere near that level, as far as I can see. Can I tempt the Minister to accept amendment No. 78?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

As always, the hon. Gentleman is very tempting. I have never been seduced by him and hope never to be so, but I can see the attractions in the way he talks. The fact is that, under the offence in section 12 of the Licensing Act 1872, the average fine is now £37, and a quarter of the level 1 fine would be £50, which is relatively close. Obviously, in relation to fines of level 2 and above, there is less of a dislocation, but I want to consider the matter further before coming to a view, which is why I would ask him not to press the amendment at this stage.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

The Minister gave a helpful reply, for which we are grateful, and apparently intends to proceed in a constructive way, taking on board the arguments that have been put to him. The amendment was simply intended to open up the debate.

There remains a strong argument in favour of the views expressed by myself and the hon. Member for Reigate that there should be a fixed amount for street-based fixed penalty notices. I ask the Minister not to reject that. There is also a strong argument for ensuring that the mechanisms for considering fine levels and for considering fixed penalty levels are always taken together. Fixed penalty notices should be considered whenever a change is made in the maximum fines as the result of a sentencing review. Those things go together, so it would be illogical to raise a fine level in any of the five categories without linking in the fixed penalty notice.

There is scope for sensible debate. Perhaps the amendment should not be made, because we must try to avoid legislation wherever possible, and the provisions will have to be reviewed regularly through secondary legislation. I ask the Minister to act on the averages that he gave us, however, none of which were more than £300, and most of which were as low as a two-figure sum. Will he also keep in mind the point made by the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire? There might be a fixed amount for the first period of the life of the legislation, after which we could return to the matter.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

The Minister has been constructive, although I was disappointed that he would not accept amendment No. 78 outright. However, I recognise that he wants to consider the question further, so I will not press the amendments to a Division. If he fails to offer a satisfactory solution to the issues that we have raised, we intend to return to the matter on Report.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

I beg to move amendment No. 79, in page 3, line 20, leave out 'give' and insert

`include a statement by a constable with respect to the alleged offence giving'.

Jimmy Hood (Labour, Clydesdale)

With this it will be convenient to take the following amendments: No. 17, in clause 6, page 4, line 18, at end insert—

`and the constables' witness statement to be served therewith, including the form and length of such a statement.'.

No. 16, in clause 8, page 5, line 20, at end insert—

`( ) The statement is to be treated as admissible as evidence to the like effect as oral evidence to the like effect by that person for the purposes of section 9 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967 even though the conditions mentioned therein are not satisfied provided that such conditions as may by order be prescribed by the Secretary of State are satisfied.

( ) The power to make an order under subsection ( ) shall be exercisable by statutory instrument and no such order shall be made unless a draft of it has been laid before Parliament and approved by resolution of each House.'.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

The amendment would require that the fixed penalty notice should include not simply particulars of the alleged circumstances of the offence but a statement from a constable giving those details. The trio of amendments is designed to help the police and avoid unnecessary paperwork for them.

Amendments Nos. 17 and 16 would enable guidance to be given on the form and length of a constable's witness statement, to be served with the fixed penalty notice, and to allow the provisions of the Criminal Justice Act 1967 to be varied by order so that shorter witness statements may be part of the fixed penalty notice itself.

Police organisations are worried that no police time will be saved by the procedure if officers have to do the paperwork for a contested case—prepare full witness statements and so on—in order to serve a fixed penalty notice. The Police Federation has said:

``Fixed penalties initially appear a good idea if policing is speeded up. If we arrest somebody for disorderly conduct when they are drunk or under the influence of drugs and take them to a police station, where they are issued with a fixed penalty ticket, they might admit their behaviour immediately. This, possibly, is a fast track system of getting people through the criminal justice system. But, the following day, they may dispute their behaviour and allege the police acted wrongly. They may try and plead not guilty or propose to plead not guilty, leaving the officer involved reliant on notes and statements from witnesses. So the fixed penalty ticket may be an addition to the set of papers that have already been issued. That is the issue for us. It will be a good system if it reduces bureaucracy, but we need to test the practicalities of what has been suggested to ensure it lessens rather than increases the burden.''

My hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath foreshadowed the debate when he raised the matter earlier.

The view of the Police Superintendents Association is the same as that of the Opposition, which is that a sea of bureaucracy is not what we want from the measure. The association said:

``Prior to the Bill our members expressed some concerns as to how practical these measures would be. It would appear that the likely outcome of the system is that offenders will be arrested and the FP ticket will be issued later at the police station. As such this will save court time and make justice swifter if the fine is paid. If it is not then it is likely that staff will be involved in collecting fines and attending court anyway.

Section 8 is, I confess, confusing to me in that officers would appear to have to make a statement to serve on the offender at the time. If this relates to a full witness statement this will not save officer time or return them to the streets quicker than is the case now. If this section requires a simple comment such as `found in the street, drunk and incapable' then it would be simpler for our officers and save considerable time. Some of the other offences that do not have a power of arrest of their own may not, because of section 8, be practical for FP notices.''

Is it possible to issue a fixed penalty notice without doing all the other work that would normally be done if someone were charged with an offence? It is difficult to understand how a police constable can avoid making a statement that has enough detail in it to prove the offence. If he does not make such a statement or have a record that was made at the time, and the accused decides to bite and to contest the matter, the evidence will not be available. If he had prepared it 21 days later, which is after the period for giving notice for trial, the defence solicitor or barrister could say in court, ``This is stale. It wasn't prepared contemporaneously.''

Is it possible to have a halfway house to deal with the problem, which involves less paperwork for officers and saves police time? Does the Minister imagine that the fixed penalty notices will be dealt with without the constable preparing a statement? If so, why are the provisions under clause 8 in the Bill? If not, does he have in mind a shorter statement that would fit in with what the police organisations want? Clearly, there is difficulty in preparing a short statement when there is a question about the intention of the accused or when it must be shown that there was no cause for the action of the accused.

Some offences, especially that of threatening behaviour and criminal damage, involve evidence of identity. It must be proved who committed the offence. Usually, that would involve certain evidence being contained in the statement to identify the accused. Will the Minister explain the procedure for the police officer? Will there be extra paperwork and bureaucracy, as Fred Broughton suggested? In other words, will the police constable have not only to prepare the statement for trial but to write out a fixed penalty notice in each case—or will there be some easy way round that?

Does the Minister envisage that the constable's statement will be part of the fixed penalty notice? The amendment would make that the case. Can the statement be as short as the Police Superintendents Association's suggestion of

``found drunk and incapable in the street''?

We would welcome the Minister's assurances and a detailed explanation on those points. One of the points that is often made to me when I visit the police is that once a person is arrested, the shift is used up. They have to spend the rest of the shift—often as much as seven hours—doing the paperwork. Will that still happen with fixed penalty notices? Surely one of the purposes of fixed penalty notices is to have a more streamlined system.

How can a fixed penalty notice be issued without a constable's statement for court being prepared? If it has to be so, can it be as short as possible and included as part of the notice? We want to know what extent of formality is required. When the Prime Minister outlined his original idea of on-the-spot fines, which the Minister later described as a metaphor, he was talking about avoiding lengthy procedures at the police station. Unless the Minister has a helpful comment to make about the constable's witness statement, however, that will be exactly the result and the fixed penalty notice will be yet another burden on our already overstretched police.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

The amendment is constructive and would streamline the paperwork rather than increase it. Under subsection (3)(c), the obligation is already to give. It says that the constable shall

``give such particulars of the circumstances alleged to constitute the offence as are necessary to provide reasonable information about it''.

That is the same as saying that there must be sufficient information to prove it. Some of the 12 offences under clause 1 for which it was suggested that fixed penalty notices would be useful are

``Being drunk in a highway . . . Throwing fireworks in a thoroughfare . . . Trespassing on a railway . . . Throwing stones etc at trains...Disorderly behaviour while drunk in a public place . . . Threatening, abusive or insulting words or disorderly behaviour etc within hearing or sight of person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress''

``Consumption of alcohol in designated public place''.

All of those are likely to be capable of being the subject of a short witness statement, which would be attached to the penalty notice. That would take no longer than giving the reasonable information required under the current legislation. The other offences,

``Knowingly giving a false alarm to a fire brigade . . . Buying or attempting to buy alcohol for consumption in a bar in licensed premises by a person under 18 . . . Wasting police time or giving false report . . . Destruction of , or damage to, property''

and—this is especially odd—

``Using public telecommunications system for sending message known to be false'',

are rather complex. I question how much they will be used. The purpose of the amendment is to streamline the procedure. It is a constructive suggestion, and I look forward to hearing the Minister's response.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

I understand the reasoning behind the amendment, but fixed penalty notices on the street rather than in the police station are unlikely to make the process easier. Have the Government considered a much simpler system that effectively requires individuals to go to a police station, within a certain amount of time, where they will have the opportunity to pay the penalty if they agree with the information given? The whole process of deciding whether to pay and accept the notice would take place in the police station. That seems a much more protected system, and one worth considering.

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

It seemed to me that one of the problems arising from the proposals—and perhaps the Government's dilemma—is set out by the contrasting approaches of my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire and the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey. The Government want to produce a quick and easy solution but they have had to draw back suddenly from the Prime Minister's original back-of-an-envelope idea. They realise that there are legal consequences, which is why we have ended up with detailed proposals and debates. The Government cannot have it both ways. That is why the Prime Minister's original speech, which referred to fixed penalty fines and dragging drunks to cashpoints, was pie in the sky—

It being One o'clock, The Chairman adjourned the Committee without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned till this day at half-past Four o'clock.

Standing Committee F

Clause 3 - Amount of penalty and form of penalty notice

Jimmy Hood (Labour, Clydesdale)

I remind the Committee that with this we are taking the following amendments: No. 17, in clause 6, page 4, line 18, at end insert

`and the constables' witness statement to be served therewith, including the form and length of such a statement.'.

No. 16, in clause 8, page 5, line 20, at end insert—

`( ) The statement is to be treated as admissible as evidence to the like effect as oral evidence to the like effect by that person for the purposes of section 9 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967 even though the conditions mentioned therein are not satisfied provided that such conditions as may by order be prescribed by the Secretary of State are satisfied.

( ) The power to make an order under subsection ( ) shall be exercisable by statutory instrument and no such order shall be made unless a draft of it has been laid before Parliament and approved by resolution of each House.'.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

We were debating at some length the statement by the constable and the nature of the notices. I emphasise that the penalty notice will be just that. It will include sufficient information about the offence, which is its purpose. The hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) was correct to say that the statutory defence is an identity. That would need to be considered, but a full statement should not be needed in every case.

It may help if I set out how the system will work. Under clause 3(3)(c), all fixed penalty notices must

``give such particulars of the circumstances alleged to constitute the offence as are necessary to provide reasonable information about it''.

The purpose is to allow the suspect, in the cold light of day and possibly on advice, to make a sober and rational judgment about whether to pay the penalty or request a trial, which is also set out on the fixed penalty notice. Under clause 8, we have allowed the possibility of the penalty notice, or any additional statement that the issuing officer gives with it, serving as a witness statement for the purpose of any subsequent trial. Thus, the police have been given the flexibility to deal with the needs of a specific case.

The hon. Gentleman will make his customary and not unreasonable remarks about guidance. Guidance may address the types of case in which a fuller additional statement may be advisable. I can cover that more fully if the Committee so requires.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

Will the Minister read that part again?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I will read the part about guidance again.

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

I hope that the Minister is not going to read out the whole lot.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I did not approve of the hon. Gentleman reading out the submission of the Criminal Bar Association but not the 110 submissions made by everyone else.

Jimmy Hood (Labour, Clydesdale)

Order. I am sure that that conversation is very interesting. If hon. Members want to intervene to ask the Minister to amplify something, that is fine, but I ask them not to have a conversation across the Floor.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I apologise for my part in that conversation, Mr. Hood. It was out of order.

I was saying that the police have been given the flexibility to deal with the needs of a specific case, but guidance may address the types of case in which a fuller additional statement may be advisable.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

Does that mean that the statement could be included in the fixed penalty notice?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

Yes, clause 8(2) says that it could be. We allow the penalty notice, or any additional statement that the issuing officer gives with it, to serve as a witness statement for the purpose of any subsequent trial.

The purpose of the amendments is clear. The Bill specifies that a penalty notice must give the particulars that I set out. Those particulars will be filled in by the constable issuing the notice, whether on the street or at a police station. Amendment No. 79 would add another requirement for the particulars to be given in

``a statement by a constable with respect to the alleged offence''.

Amendment No. 17 would allow the Secretary of State to issue guidance to the police about constables' witness statements issued with penalty notices. Amendment No. 16 would allow the constable's statement made in support of the penalty notice to be treated as oral evidence. We agree with the central point of the Opposition amendments: it is right that every penalty notice issued contains information about the alleged offence. The alleged offender must know what he is supposed to have done. We consider that the current wording in the Bill provides adequately for that. Clause 6 already includes a power for the Secretary of State to issue guidance about the exercise of police discretion and the issuing of penalty notices, with a view to encouraging good practice in connection with the operation of the scheme. That is sufficient to cover any guidance that might be required. Amendment No. 17 is therefore not necessary.

We do not intend that, in every case when a penalty notice is issued, it should be accompanied by a constable's witness statement. That will be necessary only when the trial date is arranged in advance under clause 7, which we expect to occur only in support of planned operations. I explained the situation under clause 8 a moment ago. I am trying to explain—I hope coherently—that although we understand the thrust of the amendment, we do not think that it is necessary. What the hon. Gentleman is proposing is covered elsewhere in the Bill.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

The first offence under clause 1(1) relates to section 12 of the Licensing Act 1872. It concerns

``Being drunk in a highway, other public place or licensed premises.''

Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.

On resuming—

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

Before the Division, I was asking the Minister about the offence under section 12 of the Licensing Act 1872. Would it be enough for the officer to write on the fixed penalty notice,

``found in the street, drunk and incapable''?

Are there similar formulas that are short, pithy and to the point, which could be used in respect of the other offences?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

The short answer is yes. All fixed penalty notices must have adequate particulars of the offence, and such particulars could well be in the form described by the hon. Gentleman. I am sure that the police will develop, as they do in other areas of work, precisely the type of pithy words that will meet his point.

In addition to the adequate particulars of the offence being on the fixed penalty notice, the police can choose to give an additional fuller statement. It might be typed up in the police station. That will not usually be necessary and is not a requirement under clause 8. Either the fixed penalty notice or an additional statement may serve as a formal witness statement for the purpose of the trial. The constable must certify that he filled in the fixed penalty notice or that he gave details in a witness statement. I have dealt with the points that have been raised and I hope that, on consideration, the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the amendment.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

I am concerned about what has been said. We want fixed penalty notices to be served when the offences are not particularly serious and involve only minimum extra paperwork for the police. A case that must be served with a full statement and the fixed penalty notice will add to the paperwork. I am not saying that that must happen in every case. I agree with the Minister that there would be a class of cases for which that would not apply. However, if it does apply I do not understand the advantage in serving a fixed penalty notice. That would be extra work for the police. Why cannot we use a pithy expression such as the one used by the Police Superintendents Association, such as

``found in the street, drunk and incapable''

or a similar formula.

Let us consider the second offence under clause 1, for example, which is

``Throwing fireworks in a thoroughfare''.

A constable could write, ``Threw a firework in St. Peter's street'', for example. However, if the matter were to become more complicated and a statement were not contained in the fixed penalty notice, I do not understand the advantage of the fixed penalty notice. It would simply add to the work of the police.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

Obviously, I have not made myself clear. Will the hon. Gentleman accept that it is up to the individual police officer to choose whether he wants to write anything in addition to the pithy statement on the fixed penalty notice form? That is a matter for that police officer's professional judgment in any given set of circumstances. There is no requirement for him to do so; on the contrary, it would be exceptional of the police officer to do so. Such matters will be clarified further in the guidelines.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

I understand that there will be discretion, but we have been told throughout the proceedings that there will be guidance. If that states that the police officer may write a lengthy statement and deal with the matter in the same way as he would deal with an ordinary offence, I do not understand why that would be sensible. As the Police Federation said:

``This, possibly, is a fast-track system...But the following day, they may dispute the behaviour and allege the police acted wrongly. They may try and plead not guilty or propose to plead not guilty...So the fixed penalty ticket may be an addition to the set of papers that have already been issued. That is the issue for us. It will be a good system if it reduces bureaucracy''.

However, let us consider what would happen if a substantial proportion of cases required all the usual paperwork as well as a fixed penalty notice. If the officer had to solemnly fill in the fixed penalty notice and then make a further statement, I do not see the advantage of the system. Unless the Minister can convince me on that, I will press amendment No. 79 to a vote, but I shall withdraw the other two amendments in the group.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I have no particular desire to avoid the hon. Gentleman's pressing the amendment to a Division but I shall tell him, just for the purposes of clarity, that a paperwork issue can arise only when the individual who has been given a fixed penalty notice decides that they would prefer to take the matter to trial, as they have been informed that they may; in other words, they would be in exactly the position that they are in now, except that a fixed penalty notice would have been written.

We expect such cases to be in the overwhelming minority, obviously, because we expect that a fixed penalty notice will be served only in those circumstances where, by agreement, it is taking place along with the other exchanges. That will save all the paperwork that would otherwise have been done.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

My point is that the cases that are the ones that are likely to be tried are of the type in which a person would want to fill in an extra statement. It is difficult to see why, in those circumstances, one would ever go for the fixed penalty notice option, unless the Minister is telling us that his guidance will suggest that one should. If it is a complicated issue, involving issues of identity, and the officer feels that he really needs a full statement, it is likely to be the sort of case that ends up in a trial.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

As we made clear in the debate yesterday, the guidance will say that in areas where the identity of the individual is uncertain, for example, the guidance will be not to issue the fixed penalty notice but to use the ordinary approach.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

I am still not convinced. It seems to me that the fixed penalty notice should be for the simple cases where a person can write out the notice quickly, with a short statement of what the offence is, and if a person starts saying that it should be some more complicated procedure for a body of cases, that is not right. I shall therefore press amendment No.79 and withdraw the other two amendments.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 6, Noes 12.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

I beg to move amendment No. 80, in page 3, line 33, leave out subsection (6) and insert—

`(6) No regulations or order shall be made under this section unless a draft of the same has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament'.

The amendment is straightforward. It requires the regulations setting the levels of fixed penalties to be debated and dealt with under the affirmative resolution procedure. As we have heard this morning, important issues have arisen about the level of the fixed penalties, the seriousness of the offences, the likely effectiveness of the notices, ability to pay and enforceability. All these issues are involved in the question of at what level the fixed penalty notices should be set, and we think that it would be right for the House to have the opportunity to debate that question, given the sort of debates that we have had today.

Crispin Blunt (Conservative, Reigate)

I shall rise briefly to support my hon. Friend because the Minister was kind enough to make it clear that he had accepted Opposition amendment No. 9, which would subject orders to the affirmative resolution procedure.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I did so in a moment of weakness.

Crispin Blunt (Conservative, Reigate)

Let us hope that the Minister will have another moment of weakness. It is important that the principle should carry across that if one is to change not only the nature of the offences but the amount of the fine, the matter should go in a positive rather than a negative form before the House of Commons.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

I am happy to support the amendment. We regularly debate in Committees whether we should have affirmative or negative resolutions. There are two reasons for having an affirmative resolution. First, we are dealing with an area of justice that cannot be scrutinised by the courts if it never gets further than the first stage. Parliament therefore needs to ensure that it grants permission positively for that to happen, rather than just letting it happen.

Secondly, Ministers will rarely return to the House to change the tariff, given the nature of the debate that we have had. We have never before had a proposal for such wide-ranging offences. Even if later there were to be a change from affirmative to negative procedure because it became accepted within a certain category of offences, that is not the case at the moment. It is an innovative proposal and it deserves to be considered by the House. I have a question that may or may not help my argument. Does a change in the fines tariff require an affirmative or a negative resolution?

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

There seems to be one additional point that strengthens our case here. As has been repeatedly pointed out, we have no guidance at present, despite the fact that at the end of the preceding debate, the Minister told my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire categorically that the guidance will say this and the guidance will say that. If the Minister can be so sure about what the guidance will say, why cannot we have that guidance? If the Government insist on using only negative resolution procedures, which, as the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) pointed out, are the subject of regular debates in Committee, it would be much easier for them to maintain that position if we had already seen the guidance. As we have not seen the guidance it is surely necessary, with a novel procedure, for matters to be subject only to affirmative resolution procedure so that each time the House has a fresh opportunity to consider them.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

The Secretary of State seeks the power to set particular penalties in an entirely new situation. The House should play a full part in that. The Secretary of State should know that he will have to come to the House to explain the reasons for particular penalties in these important, and to some extent revolutionary, new areas. They are revolutionary because they deal with areas that are generally accepted as criminal, although they will not give rise to criminality if the fines are paid in the same way as many of the standard fixed penalty fines, such as for parking. Although such fines can be antisocial, they are simply regarded as one of the regulatory items of day-to-day life. Therefore the House should maintain a proper control over the level and the Secretary of State should be aware of it. It is not a precedent. It is not a great burden on the Secretary of State to concede this. I hope that the Minister can tell us today that he will think again and come back on Report with the Bill amended in Government form.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

As the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey said, we frequently have this debate. I will attempt to describe it in the language of my youth, when we talked about rentamobs and rentaquotes, and say that we are having a rentanaffirmative resolution debate. In fact we must use judgment. That is the purpose of the debate. There is parliamentary control, whatever the circumstances. It is a question of the nature of the parliamentary control.

I would argue that there is a qualitative distinction between an affirmative resolution on whether a particular offence is brought within the remit of the Bill—which is what we agreed on clause 1 when we agreed with the Opposition's amendment—and an affirmative resolution when we are talking about setting the level of penalty and the regulations providing the form of the penalty. They are qualitatively different, and if there is to be any qualitative judgment that does not simply say that every decision must be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, I cannot think of a better illustration than the qualitative distinction between the question of applying this sanction to a new offence and the question of the level of the penalty and the regulations providing the form of the penalty.

My argument is strengthened significantly by observing that the discretion of the Secretary of State in relation to these areas is already highly constrained by the fact that the

``Secretary of State may not specify an amount which is more than half the amount of the maximum fine for which a person is liable on conviction of the offence''

and by the various processes that have been set out throughout the Bill.

I urge the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire to withdraw his amendment. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to answer the question asked by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey at this minute, but I will write to him about the question of the negative resolution procedure's applying to fines more generally.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

Given that the Minister would not concede that it should be a quarter of the maximum, and that he will not tell us what level of fines he has in mind, it is not unreasonable for us, as parliamentarians who are supposed to be scrutinising what the hon. Gentleman is up to, to say that we want to be able to debate this when the order comes up because so far he has not told us what he is up to. I do not mean to be disrespectful to the Minister, but he must understand that if he does not provide the Opposition with information, he must expect to have to debate these issues at a later time.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

Regarding those two specific points, with respect to the hon. Gentleman, I do not think that he can have been listening. On the question of a quarter or a half, I said that I would think about it. I did not simply dismiss the proposal out of hand. I said that I could see a case for it and that I would think about it, and I will.

On the question of the average level, I said that the responses to our consultation document from a wide variety of organisations were that the fines should be of the order of £50 to £100, and I said that the Government's thinking was not significantly divergent from that. In particular, I said that the hon. Gentleman's suggestion—which I know that he was probing with, not suggesting—that we might have a fixed penalty fine of £2,500 for a particular offence was completely outside the bounds of any proposition that we might have.

I cannot accept the hon. Gentleman's proposition that I have given no guidance either on the question of the half or quarter or on our approach to the overall level of fines. Obviously, he will decide how to press this point, but I urge him to think again, unless he simply wants to develop a reputation that is traditional to Oppositions—it is not particular to Conservatives—of simply saying that there should be an affirmative resolution on everything that comes along. If there is a question of intelligence and judgment to apply to it, I put it to the Committee that there is a difference between the question whether to bring an offence within the remit of the Bill, where the affirmative resolution does have weight, and the questions of the precise penalty and the precise form of the penalty notice, which I would argue are of a subsidiary level of significance.

Crispin Blunt (Conservative, Reigate)

I hope that the Minister appreciates that the issue that will give cause for controversy outside this place is the amount of the tariff that the police can impose if these fixed penalty notices become widespread, as the Minister hopes. That will be a matter of controversy. If the Minister's Government or any future Government are then, to a degree, perceived to be smuggling through changes in the tariff, particularly if the maximum remains unchanged at one half—rather than moving down to one quarter, as it may if a Government amendment to that effect is tabled on Report—that will be a legitimate area of controversy and we, as parliamentarians, will not be seen to have done our duty in this respect by implementing an affirmative measure. It is a controversial area, and I hope that the Minister will reconsider the amendment.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

First, as far as Parliament is concerned, on the negative resolution procedure it is open to the Opposition to pray against a particular order and to have a debate about it. We had such a debate just the other day. I cannot remember whether it was in this Committee or another one, but there was a 20-minute debate about an issue of substance that went through that process. If there is as much controversy as the hon. Gentleman is suggesting, I am sure that the Opposition of the day would feel able to follow that course.

However, the controversy surrounding the level of the fine and whether it should be £50, £100, £150 or £200 is utterly trivial compared with the controversy about the introduction of the fixed penalty notice system for such offences and new offences that might arise. That is why the affirmative resolution is appropriate in one case but not the other.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

Will the Minister give way?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

No, I will not give way. I have done so several times.

I urge the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire to withdraw the amendment.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

If the Minister had promised us that, if we prayed against the order in question, he would ensure that we had a debate on it, I might have been tempted to agree to his blandishments. However, as everyone knows, if we pray against such an order, the chances of our securing a debate, given that the decision is entirely in the hands of the Government, will be small. Such a controversial issue should be debated. As the Minister has not given us the draft order, as I had hoped, which would have enabled us to deal with the matter differently, I shall press the amendment to a Division.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 6, Noes 13.

Clause 4 - Effect of penalty notice

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

Clause 4 deals with the accused person's request to be tried for the alleged offence and how he may make such a request. Under subsection (3), such a request must be made by a notice given by the accused person in the manner specified in the penalty notice and before the end of the period of suspended enforcement, which is dealt with in clause 5.

What form does the Minister expect the request to be tried to take? Might the fixed penalty notice have a tear-off slip that the accused could send, or does the Minister have another idea for dealing with the practicalities involved? The clause specifies

``in the manner specified in the penalty notice'',

but it would help to know the Minister's thinking on the matter, especially as the notice may be given to people who are drunk or vulnerable. We want to know what will happen given such problems and in the case of people with disabilities.

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

I hope that I am not wrong in believing that the people who advise the Minister have a prototype of the type of ticket involved. If so, perhaps the Minister will share it with the Committee.

Jimmy Hood (Labour, Clydesdale)

Order. The hon. Gentleman should know that it is not proper for us to draw attention to officials.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

I notice that the Minister is waving a document in his hand. I have no idea where he got it.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

The document that I am waving in my hand is the Metropolitan police service fixed penalty notice for a non-endorsable offence, which is already widely available. With courtesy to the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray), it is not a special document. It is simply an illustration of the sort of document one may have. Because my officials are acutely prepared for every eventuality, they have everything to hand that the Committee may possibly need.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

Is that the sort of notice that the Minister has in mind and does it have a tear-off slip? What is the procedure? What does he have in mind about how an individual would seek a trial?

Crispin Blunt (Conservative, Reigate)

I may have spotted a problem with clause 4. I hope that, if the Minister cannot answer me now, he will ask for advice on the matter.

I said earlier that I served on the Committee that considered the Armed Forces Discipline Bill. That Bill introduced an appeals procedure for people who were dealt with under summary discipline in the armed services. Previously, service men agreed to accept the penalty imposed by their commanding officer whatever it was, without appeal. The Bill, because of the Human Rights Act, instituted an appeals procedure for those summary procedures. One effect was that service men were not allowed to be exposed to a higher penalty on appeal than that awarded by their commanding officer. If the commanding officer awarded someone 14 days' detention and that award was appealed, on appeal that award could not be increased by the summary appeals court.

I fear that there is a parallel. It was explained to us in Committee that the Ministry of Defence was receiving advice that, under the Human Rights Act, the fact of an appeal could not expose someone to a higher penalty. That is the effect of the clause. If someone is awarded a fixed penalty notice, he will have 21 days, under clause 5, to consider whether to accept the penalty and to discharge his obligation, or to opt for trial. There may be a parallel between the advice given to the Ministry of Defence on human rights legislation and the right for individuals to choose whether to go to trial, which might be seen as an appeal against the fixed penalty notice. I do not know the answer. I simply saw the parallel and invite the Minister to put my mind at rest if it is not appropriate.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

I shall start where the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt) left off. As far as I can read it, I do not think that he is drawing an exact parallel because the system of which he reminds us is an appeals system from an internal disciplinary procedure to a recognised court procedure. However, there is an issue that I thought he was going to raise in relation to the Human Rights Act: self-incrimination. The Minister should at least tell us how he has addressed and answered that point. If by inactivity someone lands himself with the obligation to pay a fixed penalty notice, not having taken the active step of asking for trial, his inactivity renders him liable to penalty, although not an offence. Under the Human Rights Act, someone may argue that, because it is only a penalty, not a criminal offence, the self-incrimination issues that arose in both a Scottish case and a Birmingham Crown court case did not apply. However, will the Minister explain what the effect is of the two-tier system in the context of the Human Rights Act—an issue similar to the one raised by the hon. Gentleman?

I will raise one wider issue and one smaller issue. Have Ministers addressed at all the wider issue—the fact that the system should work in reverse? If an individual is stopped for one of these offences, he should effectively be given a charge sheet on the spot. However, if he then wanted to take the option effectively to buy himself out of the process, he would have 21 days to ``redeem'' the prospect of a criminal charge. That is a much fairer system, because by definition everyone is kept within the criminal justice system and all rights are open to defence and prosecutor. The individual would still, for example, retain the right to present his financial circumstances. He would have the chance of taking the risk, although it is a certain risk, of deciding to pay his way out of the offence, because he may decide that he is guilty or likely to be found guilty, and would prefer the offence to be disposed of in a non-criminal way.

I put seriously the proposition that in relation to all these matters that are not related to street trading, driving or cycling offences, it would be a fairer and more equitable system to have a charge sheet and obligation to report to the police station within 21 days. The documentation could be simple, and the whole process could be effected straightforwardly. If the individual failed to act, the normal process of law would follow. It could have the disadvantage that more people would choose to go to court rather than to take the summary disposal route. However, there is no danger that the person who cannot read, has learning difficulties, does not understand, does not speak English, or is elderly, cannot manage the system, irrespective of the police officer's belief that they can handle all that.

I give an historical example of the sort of person who would not have been prejudiced by the proposed system. Derek Bentley lived in the constituency that I now represent, before he moved to Croydon. He was, as we all know, convicted and hanged for an offence for which in the end he was pardoned. Of course, that was a very serious offence. He was, in the old parlance, ``a very simple bloke''. He was not of full intelligence. One of the reasons for which it is thought that he was convicted, apart from Lord Chief Justice Goddard and other matters, was his inability to explain his predicament. Historically, there are many people like that.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is not arguing that a fixed penalty notice might have been appropriate in that case, but is he arguing that the Derek Bentley case is a tribute to the criminal justice system of this country?

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

No, I certainly am not. I am sure that the Minister will be aware that I am not arguing that. There are many cases. In the Hanratty case, we discovered that there had been wrongful convictions. Of course, the criminal justice system is not perfect, but I would rather that there was a trial of my guilt than a finding of an offence without trial. I would always opt for trial. That may be a difference between the Minister and me. The Minister is suspicious of lawyers and courts. I would rather that my case went into a criminal justice system properly than went round the edge. The serious question is whether Ministers have thought about the alternative process, and if not, why not. I would rather that they were honest about that. If they have not thought about the alternative process, could they undertake to commission some research to look at the alternative benefits and disbenefits of that sort of system? I endorse and repeat the request by my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire to know how the procedure will work, which is also covered by the clause as it was by clause 3. I, no doubt like many other people, have been the recipient of fixed penalty notices for motor vehicle parking offences. I concede that on some occasions I did not think that I was rightfully given a notice, because the meter did not work, or some other process, and I completely forgot about it, and time passed and the 21 days ticked over and I then found myself in the other system, and I got 50 per cent. added on and all the other things that happen.

It is important that people are given clear and accurate information and, if one is requesting a trial, that it is given in a way that is clear, in large print, with advice to take legal advice and the rest.

I do not remember ever seeing in any Bill the drafting as in this clause, where we end up with someone called A or B or C or D. I may be wrong about this. This strikes me as an innovation. The question is, is it an innovation? If so, it is a bad innovation. If it is not, where are the precedents for it happening before? Even if it is not an innovation, please may we have the Bill re-drafted, so that we do not have such drafting?

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way, because he has anticipated the point that I was also going to make. I was going to ask the Minister precisely the same question, because it also seemed to the Opposition that this drafting is an innovation. If it is an innovation, and I agree with the hon. Gentleman that whether it is or not, it is a bad thing, would he recognise, as I do, that it reads very much like a legal textbook and that in itself is not a helpful way in which statute law should be drafted?

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

I agree with all those things, and it starts to become nonsense. It is a bit like Gilbert and Sullivan, although I cannot remember in which operetta there was an A and a B and so on. If we have got an A here, do I presume that, later in the Bill, there are characters called B and C? It is just nonsense, and we need to get rid of it. Bills are meant to be written in good English, not substitutes for good English, and this is neither English nor good English. It is not coherent and does not read entirely appropriately, and I hope we can have a drafting amendment from the Minister on Report to clear up all this sort of nonsense in legislation like this.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey, my Member of Parliament, and to find that he has the same parking problems that I had when I resided in his constituency. I should like to raise three important points. The first—I concur with the dislike of the way in which this clause is drafted—is time scale. Subsection (2) says that if A asks to be tried for the alleged offence, proceedings may be brought against him. It may be that some other Act is brought in to bear on this, but could the Minister clarify how long the prosecuting authority, whoever it may be, has to institute those proceedings? In other words, how long does citizen A have to wait before he or she knows that they are in the clear, having written in to request to be tried?

The second question refers to the manner in which people are expected to write in and request to be tried. It says in subsection (3) (a) that it is the manner specified in the penalty notice, but this is important, because the effect of this missive, this request, is to impinge on the mind of the person who is going to take the prosecuting decision. That is quite likely to affect the decision whether or not to prosecute. If, for example, the piece of paper is simply a tear-off slip which says ``I request to be tried'' and suggests that one signs there, then that will give the prosecuting authority absolutely no information as to whether it is a good idea to try the case or not over and above the statement pursuant to clause 3 giving reasonable information about the offence. However, if a substantial piece of paper is attached with, for example, the opportunity to write 15 or 20 lines of explanation, that could be helpful to the prosecuting authority. I should be grateful if the Minister would comment on that, if the matter has been thought of.

That raises the third question: who will take the decision in the case and to what extent will the Crown Prosecution Service be involved? If a prosecution came to court, and one would expect it to do so, as a notice has been issued and a request to be tried sent, I would expect the case to be prosecuted by a member of the CPS, who would have applied his or her independent judgment to whether it was right to prosecute. At what stage will that happen? Will the constable who issued the notice decide whether to take further steps under succeeding clauses to put in place a trial—by giving a warning notice pursuant to clause 7—or will it be an inspector of police or someone else? I should be grateful to the Minister if he would help us on those points.

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

I wanted to expand on one of the aspects raised by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey and I am glad that his concern and mine is shared by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-East Bedfordshire (Sir N. Lyell). Since the court's ruling in Pepper v. Hart, the proceedings in the main Chamber or in Committee can be referred to in court when one is looking to the courts to clarify the intention behind a statute. The point about the inelegant and apparently novel drafting is that the figure of A is not only referred to in the clause but crops up again in clause 7. As the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey said, this novel figure should immediately be abandoned. If we start talking about A and B, it will not be long before we get to X, and X marks the spot. As a Committee, we should give the black spot to this novelty, which will not help anybody and is inconsistent with the way in which statute law is normally drafted. Moreover, anything that makes a statute look like a first-year law student's textbook is a bad example.

I also want to refer to the tear-off slip debate. The Government may be storing up trouble for themselves of the kind that I mentioned earlier in relation to the way in which local authorities have not used fixed penalty notices properly. As I have said, the Evening Standard has run a substantial campaign, of which I am in favour, to support motorists who have been unable to challenge fixed penalty notices issued by various incompetent and appallingly badly run Labour-controlled London boroughs. The Evening Standard rightly highlighted the fact that, even though there is a parking adjudicator for London, all the cases were transferred en bloc to a court outside London—in this case Northampton. Law-abiding motorists who could prove that their vehicle was not in the place where it was alleged to have been and who were unable to challenge the parking ticket, had to go to Northampton to appeal and those who had busy jobs or limited means found it almost impossible to get there. I hope that the Minister will deal with that matter. Will the Government give an undertaking that when the Bill becomes law, if it does, the fixed penalty tickets will not be transferred en bloc to a court far away from the place where the offences took place? We shall want to see that safeguard in the guidance.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

Is the hon. Gentleman arguing that fixed penalty notices for parking offences should be abandoned and replaced by a full trial in a magistrates court?

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

No, of course I am not. To judge by that intervention, the Minister is, to my surprise, unaware of the substantial campaign that has been waged over many months, involving a huge number of examples of the problems that have arisen throughout London. I have some experience of the problems faced by the parking adjudicator for London, who said, ``I cannot deal with some of the London boroughs, because even though I have certain powers as parking adjudicator, the boroughs never respond to my requests for them to look at matters.'' This is a complete nonsense, and the Evening Standard has performed a considerable public service by highlighting the problems. Given that the Government are talking about extending fixed penalties—in the context of this clause, we are talking about tear-off slips—they must be able to ensure certain safeguards. If problems that are particularly prevalent in London spread nationwide—

Helen Clark (Labour, Peterborough)

The hon. Gentleman talks a lot about parking and parking offences, but, as I understand it, the offences for which fixed penalty notices will be issued relate to disorderly behaviour. I cannot see the relevance of concentrating on parking.

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

What I am saying is that, given that the Government are talking about their own fixed penalty scheme, I want the Minister to confirm that the problems associated with fixed penalties for parking in London will not arise in respect of this provision. If the Minister can produce guidance or give a firm undertaking that a raft of cases will not be transferred to extremely inconvenient courts when appealed, we will be happy. I hope that he can give some reassurance in that regard.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

First, I want briefly to reprise the previous debate, so that I can answer the point that the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey made about fining, which is subject to the negative procedure. Under section 143(6) of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980, when fines are revalued they are subject to the negative procedure to which the Committee agreed in respect of the process that we have just discussed.

With the help of my colleagues, I brandished the form that is in my hand because it is of a type that one can imagine being used. We are discussing the precise nature of the form, and it may well be that the tear-off strip is the right approach to adopt. It is important to emphasise the distinction between the cases to which the hon. Member for Reigate referred. His comments on the armed forces were interesting, but the fact remains that choosing to go to court—a choice open to anyone in the situation that we are discussing—does not constitute an appeal process. The court can impose any fine within the maximum that appears appropriate, but it is not an appeal process akin to that which he described.

Crispin Blunt (Conservative, Reigate)

I should be grateful if the Minister would seek further advice on this matter. Of course, the military discipline procedure as administered by the chain of command is not seen as proof against human rights legislation. That is one reason why the Government have said that there must be a procedure of appeal to a summary appeals court. That seems fair enough in itself, but my concern is whether, in the light of further advice, this procedure—which is a non-legal procedure in terms of human rights legislation—could expose the person in question to a higher penalty at appeal. Such advice would appear to have originated in the light of appearance in front of a compliant court. I simply wonder whether a higher penalty and exercising one's right to trial might create problems in terms of the Human Rights Act.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

The hon. Gentleman made his point in the spirit of constructive inquiry. I intended to refer to the Human Rights Act point that he raised in general terms. The Home Secretary has signed a certificate saying that the Bill complies with the Act. That was not a lightly considered act on his part; he signed it after receiving full advice about the various points that were made to him. I have not yet referred to that in this Committee, but I have done so in other Committees on which I have served. We believe that there is adequate flexibility and judicial safeguards in the Bill to ensure fairness and compliance with the Act.

Even if people do not pay the fixed penalty notice or request trial, they can argue any specific reasons why they should have a trial, when they are called before the fine enforcement court, which can set aside the fine in the interests of justice. That flexible approach deals with the considerations of the Human Rights Act.

The right hon. and learned Member for North-East Bedfordshire made several points. The times, processes and so on that are established if individuals decide that they will go to trial on the penalties rather than pay the fixed penalty notices are not affected by the Bill. The normal time scales apply; for example, allowing six months from the issue of the fixed penalty notice, which is the same as the date of the offence, is the standard process in law and not affected by the new measures. The decisions taken by the Crown Prosecution Service will be taken in exactly the same way as they are taken now, on the basis of whether it is in the public interest to proceed with the prosecution. The process that he described as regards the time scale, the manner of the request, the prosecution and the length of time allowed to initiate proceedings will not be affected if an individual chooses trial. The legislation deals only with the circumstances in which the fixed penalty notice is chosen.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I understood the Minister to say that, if people say that they want to be tried and fill in a slip to that effect, they have to wait six months before they find out whether they are in the clear. That seems a long time—but no doubt the Minister will answer that point more fully in a moment.

The Minister said that nothing would change as regards the Crown Prosecution Service. I would anticipate that the decision to prosecute would in the first place be taken by a police officer, and that a member of the service would review the matter when it was about to be listed for court. What opportunity will the citizen have to write something that might impinge on the person deciding whether to prosecute—whoever that person is—and on the view of the Crown prosecutor in due course?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

First, the six months period to which I referred is the maximum period, not the desired period. That situation is not changed by this legislation. The right hon. and learned Gentleman may think that that period should be shorter—an argument for which there is a good case. I am glad to tell him that the Labour Government's approaches to speeding up the criminal justice system will help us to make progress in those areas.

The process involving the police and the CPS will be exactly the same after the Bill is enacted—if indeed it is—in relation to the individual who chooses trial for any of the offences listed in clause 1. The situation will be identical. The legislation simply allows the police to consider the option of the fixed penalty notice if it seems appropriate, in addition to using the normal process.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I am not sure that the Minister is right in saying that the situation is exactly the same. In a normal case in which a person is arrested and subsequently summonsed, the matter will be considered before the summons is issued. In this case, the constable, either in the police station or on the street, will have initiated the matter already, before it is referred for immediate reconsideration to the citizen who said that he wished to be tried. Will the Minister enlighten me by telling me what the normal situation is to which he referred? Who will consider the request to be tried and decide whether to press for a prosecution or let sleeping dogs lie?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

The right hon. and learned Gentleman was Solicitor-General in the previous Government.

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

Attorney-General.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I beg his pardon. The right hon. and learned Gentleman was Attorney-General and Solicitor-General. He has a great deal more experience than I have of the precise operation of the process in each of these circumstances. I am arguing, incontrovertibly, that the process in relation to time, manner of serving, decision to prosecute and so on, is not affected by the Bill in the event that the individual decides to go to trial. I know that he is challenging that interpretation, but that is my view. That is where I stand.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

The difference is that, if a person is arrested, he will be given an opportunity, in the police station, to make a statement. That would be wise if he regards himself as innocent, unless it is a tricky matter needing a solicitor. The statement would therefore be considered before prosecution. In this case, he may or may not be given an opportunity to make a statement—the Minister has not yet answered that—but who will look at the statement and decide whether to press ahead with proceedings if the person has requested to be tried? The Minister is flattering me, but I think that it is because he does not know the answer. If I did know it, I have forgotten it.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I was not flattering the right hon. and learned Gentleman. He is a lawyer of great seniority and distinction. I will argue with his politics but not with his seniority and distinction as a lawyer. The point that I am obviously failing to convey—it is not because I do not understand it, although I am the first to admit to him and other lawyers that I do not fully understand many other aspects of the law—is that the process that he describes, of a decision to prosecute an individual who decides to go to court in such a circumstance, will be the same after the Bill is enacted as before. I will reflect for a moment or two on his comments to consider whether I can add anything further during my remarks.

The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey asked whether we had considered approaching the matter from the other way round. The answer is yes, but to be honest—he asked me to be honest—we did not consider it at great length. We have argued from the outset that the purpose of the legislation was to give the police an extra option in relation to this kind of offence in the form of the fixed penalty notice, in the type of circumstances that we have discussed. I know that the hon. Gentleman disagrees—he has been clear and straightforward about that.

As far as A and B are concerned—when I did arithmetic at school A and B were always filling up baths and tanks, and we had to work out what A doing it at such a speed, and B doing it at such a speed, meant for C—the use of the form A or B is not an innovation. It has been used in several pieces of legislation in recent years, including, I am advised, the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 2000. That is a matter for parliamentary counsel. Such symbols, in the Government's view, can greatly improve the clarity of legislation and avoid over-lengthy and convoluted paragraphs. I have been given an illustration that relates to the speech by the hon. Member for Surrey Heath or the Criminal Bar Association, whichever or whoever was speaking.

The Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 includes the phrase,

``references in this section to the recipient are to the person to whom the notice was given''.

It may be that the terminology of A, B or whatever is simpler to deal with. The use of A or B is no different from the type of description that people use in everyday speech, and makes legislation more accessible. For a barrister, the suggestion that it is like a legal textbook is the ultimate insult. For the lay person trying to understand the law, the secret garden that barristers and lawyers seek to inhabit, which prevents the rest of us understanding what is going on, is something that legislators should try to make a bit clearer. Whether the use of A, B and C succeeds in that goal is a matter of taste. However, that is its purpose, which is something that the Committee should in general support.

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

Will the Minister give way?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I will give way if the hon. Gentleman wants to talk about parking tickets, but not otherwise.

Nick Hawkins (Conservative, Surrey Heath)

I am not sure that the Minister is able to impose conditions.

I want to intervene on the Minister regarding what he was saying about A and B. Although he says that it is a matter of taste, would he be prepared—in the light of the united opposition from my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-East Bedfordshire, a former Attorney-General, the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey, and myself and my hon. Friends—to reflect on the matter further, given that we all think that it is a bad innovation, even if it started off in the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 2000? One can see a reason in relation to family law matters, where individual parties in cases are anonymised in the law, for using alphabetical symbols. However, in this field of law it is less helpful. As all on the Opposition Benches, from our respective legal practices, are unanimous in feeling that it would be unhelpful and confusing, particularly when A is used twice within four clauses, will the Minister undertake to reflect further with officials?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

My general working hypothesis is that if a load of barristers are against something, then the rest of public should be in favour of it. My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department, who is not in place just at this moment, is an outstanding example of a lawyer who has turned on to the path of justice. I am not sure why the hon. Member for Reigate is laughing at my sincere accolade to my hon. Friend.

The question of clear language is an important issue for legislators. My prejudices are in favour of the kind of process that we have got here. I agree with the hon. Member for Surrey Heath, and perhaps through you, Mr. Hood, this could be passed on, that the relevant offices of the House could think how language is used. I would argue for simplification, for plain English. Something that frustrates me even now—as a relatively experienced Member dealing with complex legislation, such as the Terrorism Act 2000, and the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000—is how inaccessible our legislation is to the ordinary citizen. That is a weakness of our legislating process and anything that we can do to improve it would be a good thing.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I have spotted another point that the Minister can no doubt clarify quickly. Subsection (5) states:

``If, by the end of the suspended enforcement period...

(b) ``A has not made a request to be tried''.

Could the Minister state categorically what constitutes the making of a request to be tried? Is it filling in the form, posting the form, or delivering the form to someone? When precisely is that request to be tried deemed to have been made?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

That is set out in clause 4(3), in the manner specified on the penalty notice. As I said in answer to the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire's first question, we were considering the tear-off slip as a possible means of doing that. but there could be other means of doing it. It is a matter that we specified in universal, which will fulfil the criteria that he sets out.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

Will the Minister give way?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

No, I will not give way any more.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill

Clause 5 - General restriction on proceedings

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

I beg to move amendment No. 3, in page 4, line 9, leave out `21 days' and insert `one month'.

The amendment is the only one selected in relation to clause 5. That is the clause that deals the period between the fixed penalty notice being given to someone, and the period within which they can invoke the process of going to trial—after which the system will act against them because nothing has happened if they have not paid the money.

The amendment would extend to 28 days the period of 21 days that was set out under the Bill. I tabled the amendment, first, because 21 days is too short a period; secondly, because people do not think in periods of three weeks; and thirdly, because such a period is far more likely to catch people who did not intend to be caught and, fourthly, because I question whether the matter is not something that should be dealt with by secondary legislation rather than under the Bill.

I sense that the general precedent may reflect that time limit in the Bill. I have not done a trawl, but that probably is the case. Again, it would be helpful to know details of the precedent. I am conscious that my proposal raises the question whether a month is 28 days or a calendar month. I am clear in my mind, from personal experience as the recipient of fixed penalty notices as well as for other reasons, that people are far more likely to remember that time is running out if a month passes and they are in a different month. If a person were issued with a parking ticket in February, a trigger mechanism would come into play and he would remember by the end of March that he must do something it. The person would not remember the date or even the day of the week, but he is likely to remember roughly when it was.

If the period were extended to the end of the month after the issue of the notice, that would give people reasonable time within which to do something. The enforcement process for not paying or the time within which a person should pay should expire no earlier than a month after the notice was issued. Ideally, it should be on the first day of the month that follows the month when the offence took place. If it is to be a system where money is collected, for heaven's sake let us make it a system whereby people are likely to pay. It must be a system that will give people longer time to pay so those on low incomes will not be disadvantaged. Let us give people a longer time to find the money, so that it will not disadvantage the forgetful and mentally ill.

Helen Clark (Labour, Peterborough)

I understand the hon. Gentleman's argument, but I am approaching the matter from the opposite direction. Obviously, two weeks would be far too short a period. That would be ridiculous. However, three weeks would give the offence a sense of tension. Let us consider library fines, for example. To my shame, I was rather late paying them when I was at school. However, if people are allowed longer periods to pay fines, it is human nature to put off paying them, and to think that they can be paid the next week or the week after that.

We talked earlier about ``Hooray Henrys'', who may be just a type of people who pick up many penalty notices. I would not want them to think that they could simply re-offend and not bother to pay their fines. I am keen to put pressure on such people.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

The second point made by the hon. Lady would not make the slightest difference. If people incur regular fines, they must have a date when they click into payment. They will not be hugely affected whether they receive another notice in the same period. No theology is involved. I should be interested to know why the Government chose a period of 21 days. They must have received background briefing to reach a conclusion. I strongly urge the Government to make it a longer period. I should be grateful if the Minister would at least say that he will take away the proposal and I seriously ask that a time of at least a month afterwards be considered for all the reasons that I have given. It is a matter of great importance and I hope that the Minister can respond positively. If not, I will put it to a vote.

Jimmy Hood (Labour, Clydesdale)

Before I call the Minister, may I make a point? We have had a number of interventions today and I am getting confused, as are some hon. Members. An intervention is supposed to brief and should not be a speech. I hope that future interventions will be a lot shorter.

Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.

On resuming—

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

The hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey raised the question of the length of time in clause 5. First, as he said a month is significantly less flexible than a period of days such as 28 days, and causes confusion. That is why we usually use the formula X number of days or, as we now say, A number of days or B number of days. On those grounds alone, I urge him to reconsider his amendment.

Secondly, on the more substantial ground of the length of time involved, we chose the period of 21 days because it is a relatively routine situation. There is a precedent in section 52(3)(a) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 where 21 days is referred to in the primary legislation. I acknowledge that there is a relatively arbitrary element as between 21, 28, 35 and 14 and there are all kinds of arguments that one can make. We decided to go with precedent. I think that 21 days is a perfectly adequate time to deal with the situation.

The hon. Gentleman referred to people who for some reason did not have the capacity to deal with a situation. First, they would be unlikely to be issued a fixed penalty notice. Secondly, if they felt that they had been traduced on the amount of time available, they have the ability under clause 12 to go to court, and the court could decide in the interests of justice not to proceed with the penalty. Those are the reasons for the 21 days. I hope that, on consideration, he will withdraw his amendment.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

I am slightly surprised that the Minister was not a little more willing to consider the alternatives, and will therefore press the amendment to a Division. The period should be longer. If by some amazing fluke the amendment does not win today, I hope that the Minister will, none the less, regard it as valid. In future, all amendments will substantively come from a Government containing Liberal Democrats in every corner, but that may take just a few more months yet. Until that happy moment arrives, I hope that the Minister will reconsider his response.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

In the unlikely event of a Liberal Democrat Government being formed in the near future, could the hon. Gentleman tell us how high a priority amending this Bill from 21 days to 28 days would be?

Jimmy Hood (Labour, Clydesdale)

Order. Do not be tempted.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

I can be short. I did not see it in the draft manifesto. I now ask hon. Members to join me in voting for the amendment on the basis that a longer period would be a good thing.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 1, Noes 12.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

Because the period for payment remains in the Bill and has not been amended, I will ask for a Division on the clause as well.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I shall try again to get the Minister to clarify exactly how the system will work. I listened carefully to the Minister's previous answers, but I may have missed something. What worries me is exactly when the citizen can either indicate that he wants to be tried or stop the process of a trial by paying the penalty issued.

I suspect that payment of the penalty is comparatively straightforward, at least in theory: the citizen has to get the cheque in the post in time for it to be delivered and received within the 21 day period—although the Minister may clarify that. I suspect that, in practice, another week will be allowed to enable cheques to be cleared. However, it is important for the Minister to spell out what is the precise theoretical time scale and what it is that stops proceedings.

The request to be tried is more important. Subsection (2) covers what happens when payment is made, but subsection (3) deals with the request to be tried. What ought to be the case is that, provided that the citizen can demonstrate proof of posting of the request to be tried, or can demonstrate delivery of it to a police station—no doubt the police station specified on the notice—the opportunity for proceedings to be brought ought to be stopped.

Why does the clause begin with the words ``proceedings for the offence'' rather than ``proceedings to enforce the penalty''? Where a notice has been issued—which is what this chapter is about—unless it is paid or a request to be tried is made within the given period, what is primarily anticipated is enforcement of the penalty in its increased form as a fine, rather than the issuing of proceedings for the offence. I am not saying that is wrong to have a subsection that states that the authorities cannot start proceedings for an offence for 21 days, but in practice I think that it is enforcement that would not be started for 21 days. I want to know exactly how the citizen brings the matter to a halt, either by paying up or issuing a request to be tried. I need to know the modalities.

If the Minister has to tell the Committee, ``We haven't thought through the modalities; they will appear in regulations; we haven't got a precedent; I don't know exactly how it will work; but I will try to help the Committee later,'' I shall understand that, but I want as good an answer as the Minister can give, if he would be so kind.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

The sentence that opens clause 5—

``Proceedings for the offence to which a penalty notice relates''

means precisely that. It relates not simply to the enforcement of the fine but to the offence to which the penalty notice relates—one of the offences specified in clause 1.

The proceedings may relate to the fixed penalty notice or the trial process. That is why that language has been used. The offence to which the fixed penalty notice relates is the offence specified in clause 1, and the proceedings can be either the fixed penalty notice or the trial. At any point in the 21 days specified, which the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey argued should be 28 days, the person may request to be tried. At any point in those 21 days, as stated in clause 5(2), the penalty may be paid. The 21 days have been provided to allow a choice. They have been provided from the moment of the event happening, and at any point within that time the person may choose which course to take. That is extremely clear.

The right hon. and learned Member for North-East Bedfordshire asked about modalities. The modalities are as generally specified in legislation, but I shall be specific in response to his points. The first, which related to clause 4(3), was how the request would be made. The answer is, by a notice given

``in the manner specified in the penalty notice'',

as we discussed when we debated the previous clause, and I have nothing further to say about the matter.

The right hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned posting. The procedure specified in clause 9(3) deals with the question of a person's showing that a letter has been posted. The essential modalities of the process are specified in clause 9, which states:

``If a person to whom a penalty notice is given decides to pay the penalty, he must pay it to the justices' chief executive specified in the notice.''

The penalty must be paid

``by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the amount''.

Subsection (3)(b) refers to showing how the letter was posted.

Clause 9 also states that

``payment is to be regarded as made at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.''

Subsection (5) makes it clear that other means of payment are acceptable. Subsection (6) makes it clear that a letter is properly addressed for the purposes of the clause

``if it is addressed in accordance with the requirements specified in the penalty notice.''

The clause specifies the modality as clearly as possible for how payment will be made, and it details the process by which payment will be made. That is as clear as I can be on the matter in endeavouring to answer the right hon. and learned Gentleman's question.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

I am most grateful to the Minister. I entirely accept that when the citizen pays up clause 9 provides a clear procedure, and I apologise for not having spotted that before. However, unless the Minister can draw it to my attention, I see no such clarity about the request to be tried. Will the Minister explain the procedure and modalities for the request to be tried? I have not spotted them.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

First, the fundamental process is specified in clause 4(3). I do not want to be rude to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, but I honestly believe that we have been going around this circuit for a considerable time. The modalities of notification of court and date of trial and the right to ask for trial are specified in clause 7, in much the same way as the procedure for the fine is specified in clause 9.

I am trying to think what else I can say to help the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I believe that the matter is as clear as it could possibly be. I am sorry if that is not sufficient, but I cannot say any more about the matter, and that is not because there is something that I should or do know and am not saying. The Bill is absolutely clear.

Crispin Blunt (Conservative, Reigate)

My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-East Bedfordshire made the point that it is not clear exactly what the process will be for the police and prosecution authorities if the penalty is not paid. Will enforcement proceedings automatically take place to get enforcement against A as a fine or will the guidelines deal with a reassessment by the police and prosecution authorities on whether to institute trial proceedings at that point? Will all that become clear in the guidelines on how the police are to operate the system?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

After the 21 days, the citizen may make his payment or trial request, provided that the fine has not been registered. The chief constable has the discretion to accept late payment or request for trial. Once the fine has been registered, a citizen may make to the fine enforcement court any arguments about how that fine is enforced.

The hon. Gentleman referred to the prosecution decision. Again, I am trying to think how I can be clearer about it than I have been. Let us imagine that the Bill does not exist in any form and will not go on to the statute book. For each of the offences set out in clause 1, there is a process according to which a trial may or may not take place according to the judgments on prosecution that are made by the relevant authorities in each case. That is the case under section 12 of the Licensing Act 1872, section 80 of the Explosives Act 1875 and so on. The Bill says that, in addition to that process—which is clear, established in law and works reasonably effectively as far as one can tell—there is the possibility for a fixed penalty notice to apply. In the event that such a notice does not apply, because the individual says, ``I want to opt for trial,'' the situation is exactly as it is today, without the Bill being enacted. The process is clear and straightforward.

Oliver Heald (Conservative, North East Hertfordshire)

The point of concern is that an officer must have reason to believe that an offence has been committed to issue a fixed penalty notice. Let us imagine that he does so, and the person elects for trial. Is the Minister saying that the whole thing goes back to square one at that point and that the CPS becomes involved and takes a decision on the usual prosecution basis of whether there is a beyond 50 per cent. chance of success and so on?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

Yes. I was looking anxiously to my learned colleague to ensure that I did not get the answer wrong. Back to square one is as good a way as any of describing the process, which exists today. As now, judgments will be made about the situation.

Crispin Blunt (Conservative, Reigate)

The point on which I sought elucidation from the Minister was exactly what people can expect if they receive a fixed penalty notice but do not pay it. Will the police and CPS then make a judgment about whether to bring the case to trial or will the process for enforcement be continued? I imagine that it is likely to be a matter of judgment by the police and prosecution authorities. Will the guidelines make clear to people on the receiving end of the process the point at which non-payment of a penalty turns into a trial, rather than enforcement proceedings to get the money for the fine and the penalty, which they presumably accepted by taking the notices?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I hope that everyone is clear on the circumstances in which the fixed penalty notice is paid. I thought that we were discussing the choice of trial, on which it was said that there was a lack of clarity. I certainly feel clear about that choice and was trying to offer clarity on it. For the sake of argument, let us use the code of ``back to square one'', which was suggested by the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire.

The third possibility is that the individual chooses to pay a fixed penalty notice, but does not pay the fine in accordance with his or her commitment to do so. At that point, clause 4(5) comes into play. It says:

``If, by the end of the...period—

(a) the penalty has not been paid in accordance with this Chapter, and

(b) A has not made a request to be tried,

a sum equal to one and a half times the amount of the penalty may be registered under section 10 for enforcement against A as a fine.''

In those circumstances, a fine one and a half times the amount of the penalty is registered as a fine to be paid and collected in the normal way through a magistrates court.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

The Minister has answered two of the three questions, but has not clarified what one has to do to register a request to be tried. If one posts it on the 21st day and it arrives on the 22nd, is that good enough? The Bill does not set that out. It sets out a pretty good code in clause 9, but does not set one out for requesting to be tried in clauses 4, 5 or 7. Can the Minister clarify that?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

With respect to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, that is the sixth time that he has asked that question.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

And it has not been answered.

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

It has been answered, but the right hon. and learned Gentleman unfortunately does not like the answer. There we are—I can say nothing further.

Simon Hughes (Liberal Democrat, North Southwark and Bermondsey)

On some of the fixed penalty notices that I have received, time has passed and I have been asked by written communication whether I had representations to make before a decision was taken. The Bill does not clarify the process between the end of the 21 days and a potential decision to prosecute as a result of normal criminal procedure. Will people be given the opportunity to make representations before a decision is made? In one case where I made representations, I got a nice letter back saying, ``In the light of what you have said, we will take no further action. Thanks very much. Good afternoon,'' for which I was grateful. Is that procedure included in the process and, if not, can we include it?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

I am aware that I am in danger of being impatient and I do not wish to be. Perhaps I am being stupid and not understanding the point, but the position is as clear as possible. The individual chooses the fixed penalty notice or opts for trial—

James Gray (Conservative, North Wiltshire)

By what means?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

By the process set out in the Bill. That is now the seventh time that that question has been asked. The third option is that a fixed penalty notice is chosen but not paid. The Bill sets out fully the process for each of those circumstances, particularly in clauses 4 and 5, but also in clauses 7 and 9. If I am guilty of not having understood the point, I apologise and ask Opposition Members to explain it more clearly. If I am not, the position is clear and direct.

Crispin Blunt (Conservative, Reigate)

I wanted to make it clear that I have understood what the Minister said in respect of my points on option 3, when someone accepts a notice but does not pay the penalty. Under clause 4(5) a fine not exceeding one and a half times the penalty may be registered against him. Under the Minister's argument, will that person not be liable for trial for that offence, but simply be pursued as a defaulter on the fine? By accepting the fixed penalty notice, will he be immune from being tried for that offence?

Charles Clarke (Labour, Norwich South)

The answer to that question is yes. As always, I turn to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, Lord Chancellor's Department, who is more experienced than I am in those matters. I am glad to report that he confirms that the answer is yes.

Sir Nicholas Lyell (Conservative, North East Bedfordshire)

At the risk of irritating the Minister—I assure him that it is not my intention—let me say that he has not been as clear as he would wish. We are discussing clause 5, but he rightly relates the question back to clause 4. I am concerned about the modalities of making it clear that one requests that the matter be tried. The Bill says only that

``Such a request must be made by a notice given by A...in the manner specified in the penalty notice''.

The Minister has not told us any more than that, which is not good enough, because it is in precisely that area that problems will arise.

I will give the Minister an example, so that he may either concede that he has not thought the matter through properly—which I believe to be the truth—or provide an explanation of how the system would work in that example. Let us suppose that an officer gives me a penalty notice on the first of the month. On the 21st day of the month, I fill in the tear-off slip that accompanied the notice—the Minister has been reasonably clear about that aspect of the process—sign it, requesting that the matter be tried, and post it with a first-class stamp, so that it is delivered the following day: the 22nd day.

Have I made the request to be tried in time? The letter may not be delivered for a week, even though I have posted it by first-class post. If I am using the postal system, must I ensure that it is delivered within the 21 days—by paying for next-day delivery, for example? The matter is vague at this point. Will

``the manner specified in the penalty notice''

include an opportunity for me to go in person with the form and to hand it into a police station?

Those questions are simple. If the Minister has answered them before, he can draw my attention to Hansard and I will read it. However, I do not believe that he has.

The rest of the debate is in Hansard.